Hungarian neo-nazis on the attack

For quite a few days now the media has closely followed a story about a ticket office and atrocities against it by a shadowy extreme right-wing group, perhaps coordinated by a blogger who calls himself Tomcat. The events began when a young woman went to a ticket office in the district known as Újlipótváros. Újlipótváros used to be part of Lipótváros, that is downtown Pest. The old Jewish quarters were also situated in Lipótváros, and therefore in certain circles the name of the district became virtually synonymous with Jewishness. In any case the young woman wanted to purchase a ticket for a rock concert given by a group of far-right musicians. The clerk had never heard of the group but told the woman that she would check. After she found the group’s name in her computer she told the customer the price: the cost of the ticket plus a 100 Ft handling fee. The young woman became enraged by the extra cost, complained to her ideological friends, and told them that the people at the ticket office had called her a fascist because she wanted to buy a ticket for this particular concert. The result: a Molotov cocktail in the middle of the night. The owners quickly fixed up the place, but by that time Tomcat and his friends had a new plan. Their idea was to bombard the ticket office with requests for tickets for another right-wing concert whose tickets are not even available through ticket offices.

However, a group of people who had had enough of the radical right’s incredible performances of late came to the ticket office’s rescue. At least 500 people gathered to defend the ticket office against approximately 50 neo-nazis. When I used the word "neo-nazi" I’m not exaggerating. I saw one young guy in a T-shirt with Hitler’s picture on it! I really wonder whether these ignorant youngsters actually know anything about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m not at all sure. Tomcat, camera in hand, was taking videos from the second floor of a nearby house, but the only thing he could see was that his friends disappeared when the police arrived. Interestingly enough the police, following Hungarian law, started proceedings against both groups. The demonstration was what the police call a "flash mob." A demonstration that begins spontaneously. It is unannounced. According to Hungarian law any demonstration must be announced to the police three days before the event.

Some of the demonstrators were obviously frustrated that they couldn’t attack the ticket office due to the counter-demonstrators and the police. Two diehards decided to return to the scene. In the dead of night they broke the shop windows of the ticket office. However, the police were on the lookout and the perpetrators were arrested a few minutes later.

Undeterred, Tomcat and his friends are organizing a new demonstration. The anti-fascists are also organizing and tomorrow the scene will be repeated. However, this time the counter-demonstrators have a powerful ally: the prime minister himself. He announced his intention to join the counter-demonstrators and asked the other party leaders and the president to join him. Ibolya Dávid of MDF has already announced that she will not be there. She claimed that it was the police’s job to keep order. I’m almost certain that Viktor Orbán will not show up. As for Sólyom, I highly doubt it.

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Varangy
Guest

****saw one young guy in a T-shirt with Hitler’s picture on it! I really wonder whether these ignorant youngsters actually know anything about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m not at all sure.****
Unfortunately, I think they know enough about Hitler to know why they wear t-shirts such as the one you described.
Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?comment image
Or Che t-shits?comment image
Equally as offensive? Or not so much?

kincs
Guest

Apparently Sólyom is going to turn up just long enough to make a statement to the crowd. It will be a healthy development if he does.

Adrian
Guest
The coverage on HVG was the second piece of good news I have had on the rise of facism in Hungary, the first being the school kids ridiculing the Magyar Guarda at hősök tere. “Mi is itthon vagyunk”, at last the silent majority of Hungarians – who are frightened of reprisals – are expressing their opinion. Varangy asks a very pertinent question about people’s emotional reaction to the symbols of totalitarianism. I threw a hiszti in class on Monday because my Szálasi admiring student was sporting an arrow cross. Eva, these kids do know who Hitler was, and they admire what he achieved – for them, the holocaust is unfinished business, still so many gypsies to kill, – oh, and the disabled. The cause of my emotion is the threat to my children as not “real hungarians”. my middle child goes to an ovoda that sits between two disused synagogues. It used to be a Jewish primary school, everyday I am reminded of what happened to the kids attending that school in 1944, and it frightens me. Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have… Read more »
Lia
Guest

“The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.” Well said, Adrian.

Hatodik Oszlop
Guest

Well, Solyom will indeed be making an appearance, much to your chagrin, but nowhere in your post did you mention that György Szabó, a Fidesz representative in the local government was one of the main organizers of the anti-fascist rally. Not to say Fidesz is all great, but for some reason I can’t help but think that wasn’t accidentally left out.
I recall late last year when the parliamentary parties held a joint international press conference, and Gyurcsány had the rug pulled out from under him by (I think) Bálint Magyar, who said “Yes, Hungary has fascists, but there is no fascist threat.” Suddenly Gyurcsány had to stop screaming fascism when his coalition partners said they were worried about it.
The people on the political fringes are always louder when the economy is bad. Once it picks up, they’ll disappear back under the rocks they belong.

Hatodik Oszlop
Guest

The end of my second paragraph should read:
Suddenly Gyurcsány had to stop screaming about fascism when his coalition partners said they weren’t worried about it.

kincs
Guest

Spineless. He wants to be seen to be showing concern but won’t actually go out on a limb. Lacks the courage of his convictions.

Hatodik Oszlop
Guest

I’ll give you that. Contrary to earlier reports, Solyom won’t be going out in the afternoon, which I think is a bad move on his part.
On the other hand, György Szabó has received death threats for his stand against the far-right, and kudos to him for taking it.
Now if only Gyurcsány would stay away this afternoon, as an increasing chorus of voices are demanding him to. His presence transforms everything into a protest against himself, not the topic at hand.

R.
Guest

Sneaking around and breaking windows in the dead of night? Over a 100 ft service charge? Really? That’s pathetic.
Isn’t it funny how, when these shadowy groups show themselves by the light of day, they’re just 50 cowards with silly haircuts and stupid clothes.
50 jerks demanding to buy tickets for a band playing music that originated in the United States! Ha ha ha! That’s comedy.

Laci
Guest

Interesting how people just assume that the group are fascist “Tom Cat”
I have been listening to his comments and he actually stipulates he is not a Fascist, he is defending the Hungarians Rights which have been oppressed for many centuries, as soon as someone defends hungarians they are labelled as fascist, it’s actually should be looked at without LEFt or Right wing views , but what he is saying has some hardsore truth to it, however the media is reporting what the agenda requires NWO.. sadly ..

Viking
Guest
It is good that we, finally, can see some action coming from the non-extreme parts of the society against these extremists. The escalation has though gone rather fast on the extremist-side and I do not think we have seen the end of the scaling-up and sophistication of the violent methods used by the extremists. We must understand that when people gone over the edge to start throw petrol bombs, then actual murders are close to happen. It is a problem in a democratic society how to handle these so violent and anti-democratic groups. The main effort must though stay on to propagate good believes and a higher degree of tolerance among ordinary people. On the other hand we must also allow extreme opinions to be ventilated, even if it offends us, as long as the rules for expressing opinions are followed. As an entrepreneur owning several stores in Bp I of course get scared by the idea, that next time they may choose one of my shops as target practice. They are worse than the Mafia because the Mafia often understand business, so you can normally strike a deal. Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare… Read more »
Laci
Guest

Hungarians have had the raw deal in there own country, being oppressed by the minorities for centuries, there is no democracy while the media is reporting such rot!! If you would be here and witnessing how the Hungarians are being oppressed by the Jews Zion, whom have not only spread there control in this country but most of the World, then you would appreciate that there is a group who have the courage to stand up to the Zion Fascists.. These people are not part of a Fascist right wing group they are odinary Hungarian citizens, sick of the manipulation they have received for many years by the Jewish Socialists. Before moving to Hungary I never even considered how corrupt the Socialists Jews are, and living, seeing and experiencing life in Hungary slowly the truth unfolds, not like in the west how people are lead like sheep..Baa Baa

R.
Guest

@ Laci
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you believe all this, what does attacking a ticket office over a 100 ft. service charge do? Instead, why don’t you take responsibility for yourself, stop blaming other people for your problems, and to quoth Shakespeare, “grow a pair, already”?
Seriously though, ticket offices the world around charge service fees. If this was really a problem, then these nationalist bands could easily get around that by only selling tickets at the door.

Adrian
Guest
Laci, I agree that since 1526 Hungarians have had a raw deal, but this has been the result of geopolitics rather than zionist conspiracy and gypsy crime. Hungary has survived in the midst of three powerful and authoritarian empires. But now the people making decisions about Hungary are Hungarians. Check the result of the last referendum. Many British people I know have as much concern as you over political lies and media manipulation – over the war in Iraq for example. But not many of them think the petrol bombs and death threats are an appropriate response to lies and manipulation. Having heard tomcat on HVG, and having read about his other beliefs and activites I think he is a fascist. I agree with the definiton of fascism given by the historian Robert Paxton. He argues that because fascist policies have varied from place to place, fascism is best seen as a style of politics. A style that is primarily emotional and violent rather than rational and lawful. Paxton argues that fascism tries to engage the following “mobilising passions”: • a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions; • the primacy of the group, toward which… Read more »
Varangy
Guest
****Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom.**** @Adrian You are no different than most people. The West (academia and media) has been complicit in soft-peddling Communism’s horrors. ****…but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.**** Really? The hammer-and-sickle do not represent a threat to your values? Interesting. A couple things: 1) I think the swastika, hammer-and-sickle, Che images are all equally vile and offensive. Why? They clearly represent totalitarianism and murder. See a quick take here: http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/27405703 2) I don’t think the arrow cross is a real threat to anyone today in Hungary. Yes, you get some wackjob neo-nazis all hyped up — but this is not the 2nd coming of the 3rd Reich, so I think you can get your family out of the basement now. 3) While I do find the above three symbols offensive (and would not wear them), I DO NOT think that they should be outlawed for obvious… Read more »
Varangy
Guest
****Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom.**** @Adrian You are no different than most people. The West (academia and media) has been complicit in soft-peddling Communism’s horrors. ****…but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.**** Really? The hammer-and-sickle do not represent a threat to your values? Interesting. A couple things: 1) I think the swastika, hammer-and-sickle, Che images are all equally vile and offensive. Why? They clearly represent totalitarianism and murder. See a quick take here: http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/27405703 2) I don’t think the arrow cross is a real threat to anyone today in Hungary. Yes, you get some wackjob neo-nazis all hyped up — but this is not the 2nd coming of the 3rd Reich, so I think you can get your family out of the basement now. 3) While I do find the above three symbols offensive (and would not wear them), I DO NOT think that they should be outlawed for obvious… Read more »
Varangy
Guest

[Note: Did not mean to post twice. Browser hicough.]
But Eva, you continue to avoid my questions…but let me, out of courtesy, begin.
If it is not clear, and I apologize if it is not, I find swastika and Hitler images on t-shirts etc etc quite offensive for obvious reasons.
I ask you, politely, again:
Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?comment image
Or Che t-shits?comment image
Equally as offensive? Or not so much?

Pisteve
Guest

And silly me tried to catch the number 79 trolleybus today!

Viking
Guest
Varangy wrote: “Equally as offensive? Or not so much?” Is this the Eurovision Song Contest? Is there a point system? What is the criteria – number of deaths, that people who did not join the Party could not send their children to the University? One persons direct experience of fascism (in any form, see Adrian’s post) cannot be translated into another persons direct experience of communism (whatever it was, where ever it was). They do though have at least some things in common and that is the lack of personal freedom, multi party-system and free elections. In Hungary you had more Hungarians killed by the Fascists than Communists during the previous Century. I do count the several 100.000 Hungarians with current or previous Jewish religion (or same of their relatives had it) and the rather unknown number of Roma killed, as Hungarians. But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad. Would Hungary been occupied by the Soviets and had its share of Communism if Hungary would not have attacked the Allied Forces? Does not the responsibility of the horrors of Communism lay within the Hungarian society? How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be… Read more »
Varangy
Guest
****You don’t seem to get it. I don’t answer your stupid questions. That’s all.**** @Eva Ah! I thought you were above ad hominem? Actually, that isn’t correct. You weren’t above insulting my family. Again, your evasiveness speaks volumes. ****I’m sure you know the joke about Móricka and what he has constantly on his mind.**** My Nagypapa constantly told us Móricka anecdotes. Good stuff. ****You’re like that. Everything reminds you of communism. If there will be a communist threat in Hungary I will express my opinions but at the moment there is no such thing. On the other hand we have neo-nazis.**** 1) I simply wish to understand your tremendous disconnect and inconsistencies on two very related totalitarianist regimes — that have had massive influence on Hungary and Hungarians (a favorite topic of mine). It is not that everything reminds me of communism, it is that communism hangover affects every part of and has ramifications for Hungarian life today, whether we like it or not. I don’t. Pretending that it doesn’t — is silly. BTW your blog is named ‘Hungarian Spectrum’. 2) It would be simple to answer my question. a) I don’t find them offensive b/c of A, B, and… Read more »
Varangy
Guest
*****Varangy wrote: “Equally as offensive? Or not so much?” Is this the Eurovision Song Contest? Is there a point system? What is the criteria – number of deaths, that people who did not join the Party could not send their children to the University?***** Great question. I’ll pretend that you weren’t being facetious. I hold both symbols to be equally offensive and represenative of intentional: death, destruction, pain, and obliteration of freedoms. ****They do though have at least some things in common and that is the lack of personal freedom, multi party-system and free elections.**** I am impressed that you noticed. Not bad, coming from you. ****But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad.**** Yes. Explain to me, cogently, why I am wrong. *****Does not the responsibility of the horrors of Communism lay within the Hungarian society?***** Sure. *****How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be “equally” bad as the Soviets?***** You make, like always, no sense. How can the Hun. Nazis that brought Communism into Hungary????????? What? ****Varangy mention his Father’s remembering that the local Nazi chief became the local Commie boss – Of course, it is naturally.**** You don’t have to explain… Read more »
Viking
Guest
+++++++++++++++++++++++ Varangy: ****But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad.**** Yes. Explain to me, cogently, why I am wrong. ======================= Viking: Is that not obvious reading the 2 sentences before in my original post? +++++++++++++++++++++++ Varangy: ****How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be “equally” bad as the Soviets?***** You make, like always, no sense. How can the Hun. Nazis that brought Communism into Hungary????????? What? ======================= Viking: The answer lies 2 sentences above in my original post – Hungary’s attack on the Allied Forces. Do you claim that the Allied Forces attacked Hungary and Hungarian Forces did not participate in the attack on Stalingrad and one my wife’s uncles were not taken prisoner of war 3 days after the Hungarian attack on Soviet and spent 8 years in Siberia? +++++++++++++++++++++++ Varangy: “you believe in one form of totalitariansim, you can believe in another” ======================= Viking: No the point is totally the opposite – I do *not* believe in *any* form of totalitarianism. As I thought (in my original post) that one would be hard for you to grasp. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Varangy: “words and concepts have defined, objective meanings” ======================= Viking: Well, I obviously was… Read more »
Varangy
Guest

@Viking
I give up on trying to communicate with you. Not because I don’t want. B/c I can’t.
As much as I try, I can’t understand your gibberish and you cannot understand my rhetoric.
Look, maybe it is me or, most likely, it is you, but this is making a mockery of human language.

Viking
Guest

You sound more and more like my wife, Darling.

Adrian
Guest

varangy
I wish you would my post more carefully before you attack what you think it means.
Communism as a totalitarian ideology that embraced murder and theft as a means of achieving its ends is as profoundly opposed to my values as fascism.
But, as there are no communists organising violent demonstrations, throwing petrol bombs, issuing death threats, arguing for the necessity of class war, and classifying my family as class traitors communism does not represent a REAL AND PRESENT threat to me, etc.
As someone who has liberal values, I agree with the principle that people should have freedom of expression to use what symbols they like.
As a conservative thinker who has been to forced to recognise the socially disruptive effect of the use of those symbols, I can understand why they are illegal in Hungary.
Thanks for seeing me as a “western intellectual”, but I think you must have missed our debates above the comparative evil of the Hitler and Stalin regimes. Since the collapse of communism, there has been much rewriting of history and condemning of those who soft-peddled the evil of communism. I am not politically correct, I am not left wing, I’m on a different place in the Spectrum.

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