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Pete H.
Guest

So, when someone refers to historical Hungary they are referring to middle 1800’s borders?

Eva S. Balogh
Guest

To Pete H: Yes.

Eva S. Balogh
Guest

Pete, one more thing. Transylvania was governed directly from Vienna. But it was ruled by Maria Theresa and her successors as queen and kings of Hungary.

GW
Guest
These maps make clear some of the geopolitical and purely geographical problems of drawing a direct line from a “historical Hungary” to the present. For an example of the geopolitical note that the “nation of the Croats” is named in the mid-18th century map, but completely enclosed in the “nation of the Magyars”. Many Hungarians I know have insisted that the relationship between Croats and Hungarians was completely amiable and benevolent, and precisely like that between Wales and England (in which the crown prince of the larger state was the nominal prince of the smaller state); however, my Croatian friends were equally insistent that this assured Hungarians a water port and Croatians subservance without to Hungary and forced linguistic Hungarification in the schools. As for geographical elements, note that the present Hungarian territory was, until the completion of major drainage projects that would continue into the early 20th century, but were comstly complete in the mid-19th century, waterlands. This major reclamation program effectively increased the usable landmass of Hungary by about 50%; while this has major long-term environmental problems (i.e. the creation of the Puszta as we know it now, marginal agricultural land at best) the most tangible effect is… Read more »
Eva S. Balogh
Guest

GW: “however, my Croatian friends were equally insistent that this assured Hungarians a water port and Croatians subservance without to Hungary and forced linguistic Hungarification in the schools.”
I think that your Croatian friends are wrong on the schools. As a result of the Croatian-Hungarian Compromise of 1869 the official language in Croatia was Croatian.

Joseph Simon
Guest

Wilson should never have been allowed to come to Europe. ‘A war to end all wars’ came from someone who intervened militarily at least six times in the affairs of Mexico: who saw the American Civil War and the near extermination of the native Indians. It was a fraudulent statement. If anything, he intitiated permanent war. Also, any dictator would be proud of his Espionage and Sedition act, still in force. He mixed up Slovenia and Slovakia. He pushed the Austrians to take Burgenland from Hungary. The ‘idealist’ Wilson showed complete non-interest in the Irish rebellion that went on at the time.
It is said that he withdrew from Europe greatly disappointed. This statement cannot be true. He had achieved all: Europe was in disaray, divided into small unviable states, the seeds of future conflict sown. And most important of all: the strongest continental power Germany was prevented from replacing the ailing and waning Britain. Mission accomplished!

Kirsten
Guest

@Éva: I am somehow unable to make that out from the maps, but is the main difference between the 18th century and the 11th century maps the inclusion of Croatia?

GW
Guest

Eva, I believe that the provision for Croatian in the schools was honored only by non-state founded schools. The compromise of 1868 (not 1869) was approved by a Sabor dominated by pro-Hungarian deputies and the subsequent electoral law essentially made permanent this pro-Hungarian representation. (Among other requirements, the compromise required 55% of taxes collected to be sent to Budapest.) Fairly or not, to this day, the Nagodba is a source of great anger in Croatia, a topic that Croatians will bring up with tourists without any prompting, much as Hungarians will bring up Trianon.

Eva S. Balogh
Guest

To Kirsten. Yes. The Kingdom of Croatia was occupied by King László I in 1091 at the request of his sister, Ilona, wife of the late Croatian king who died without issue. Ten years of civil war followed until agreement was reached recognizing Kálmán, son of László, as king of Croatia. It was a personal union and Croatia was always considered to be a separate entity. That is one reason why the Hungarians in 1920 didn’t lay any claim to that part of the country. They considered it a Croatian decision to put an end to the personal union enacted in 1102.

Kirsten
Guest

But to me it then appears as if the complete inclusion of Bohemia into Czechoslovakia were the only case when “historical claims” were applied to the successor states of the Empire. Could that be?

Eva S. Balogh
Guest

Kirsten, “Yes, yes! The Czechs managed to combine “historical claims” with the principle of national self-determination by playing down the differences between Czechs and Slovaks. The real difference between the two people are not so much linguistic as cultural due to different historical experiences.

Kirsten
Guest

Éva: It may have been easier to push through because in Bohemia “self-determination” would have benefited Germans. But of course, it violates the general idea of the Treaties of “self-determination”.

Eva S. Balogh
Guest

To Kirsten about Germans in Bohemia. Of course. Moreover, the Austrian government in 1918-1919, again in the name of self-determination of nations, wanted to join Germany along with the Germans of Bohemia (Sudeten Germans). Of course, that was out of the question for political reasons.

Eva S. Balogh
Guest
To GW: The maps are very small and the colors are all the same but it is clearly stated that Horvátország is the country of Croats just like Magyarország is a country of Magyars. In addition you can see east of Horvátország an area called Szlavónia. This area was conquered already in the time of Saint Stephen and there was created a separate principality. The Hungarian king was also king of Croatia and King of Slavonia. As for the language of education facilities, I’m afraid you’re wrong. Croatian was the official language of the internal admiration, the courts, and education. The only exception was the official language of MÁV, Magyar Államvasutak, the national railroads. Just as Hungarians complained about the official German of the common army, the Croats complained about the language of the railway administration. At the University of Zagreb the language of instruction was always Croatian. My father at the age of nine was sent to school to Osijek, just across border in historical Slavonia by my grandfather. He learned Croatian in a hurry. Years later when Pécs was under Serbian occupation for a couple of years and he had difficulty crossing the demarcation line to Budapest to… Read more »
Paul
Guest

Interesting though, that the map you see on cars, etc is always the one that includes Croatia.
Although this could just be that it makes a more interesting shape than the ‘blob’ that you’d have without it!

Eva S. Balogh
Guest

Paul: “Interesting though, that the map you see on cars, etc is always the one that includes Croatia.”
Now that you remind me. Yes, this is rather strange.
One more personal thing about Croat-Hungarian relations in the old days. Quite a few years ago I was invited to a garden party for a group of Romanian students who were visiting the United States. Among the guests there was a Croatian doctor from Yale-New Haven Hospital who told me that Croatia’s situation in Yugoslavia was terrible. They think fondly of the old days within Hungary. I reminded him that this is not how I remember it.

Paul
Guest

It’s because it looks like a fish, Éva.
Seriously, I really think it is. It’s instantly recognisable – an amorphous blob wouldn’t have anything like the same propaganda impact.
Don’t forget, the people this map is aimed at/revered by are the same ones who are convinced the St István crown was presented to prince Vajk before his coronation by the Pope.

Mark
Guest

Kingdom Hungary and Kingdom Croatia is two Kingdom and van King ! They is PERSONAL UNION Hungary and Croatia.

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