Economic and political fairy tales at home and abroad

Although I want to talk about the Romanian-Hungarian tensions that flared up in the last few days, first I must say something about Economic Minister György Matolcsy’s performance on CNN yesterday. His interview with Richard Quest was not an everyday affair. The most memorable part of the interview was when Matolcsy described his government’s economic performance of the last year as a “fairy tale.” No wonder that a few hours later this picture of Matolcsy appeared on the Internet:

The complete interview can be seen on CNN’s website:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2012/06/07/marketplace-europe-matolcsy-hungary-economy.cnn?iref=allsearch

And now we can return another horror story: the deteriorating Romanian-Hungarian relations.

Let’s go back a little bit in history. After the lost war and surrounded by not especially friendly successor states it would have been practically mandatory for Hungary to seek at least one friend among the neighbors. But with the exception of Austria where the territorial loss of today’s Burgenland didn’t mean the loss of a large Hungarian speaking population, Hungary never managed to come to any kind of rapprochement with the successor states. The Hungarian liberal emigré community and the social democrats at home would have preferred a Czechoslovak orientation, but given Eduard Beneš’s dislike of Hungary and his aversion to the authoritarian regime that took hold of Hungary after the war any kind of a closer relationship between Czechoslovakia and Hungary was out of the question. Miklós Horthy himself liked the Serbs and the Croats. He considered the Croats good sailors and the Serbs good soldiers, and that was enough for him. Horthy had neither a political nor a diplomatic background, and therefore his vision was somewhat limited.

Hungarian politicians with the exception of one fleeting episode in 1919 never seriously considered any move toward a better understanding with Romania. That was rather odd because there were many considerations that should have dictated closer relations between the two countries. One of the most important was the size of the Hungarian minority in Romania.  Calculated on the basis of the 1910 Hungarian census, there were 1,704,851 Hungarian speakers in the territories received by Romania in the Treaty of Trianon of 1920.  But even in 2011, after a huge drop in the last ten years, the numbers are substantial: 1,237,746. Thus common sense would have dictated friendly relations with a country that had such a large Hungarian minority. Yet exactly the opposite happened between the two world wars. Hungary’s relations with Romania were perhaps the worst among all her neighbors.

Fidesz’s attitude toward the Hungarian minorities living in the neighboring countries is not conducive to good relations with the governments in question. Between 1998 and 2002 relations were strained between Hungary and all her neighbors. I was afraid that something similar would occur again, but in the last two years relations with Romania were especially warm. Sometimes I was surprised to see how calmly the Romanian government reacted to some rather inflammatory remarks by Hungarian government officials. But it seems that the honeymoon is over, especially now that there is a new prime minister in Romania, the socialist Viktor Ponta.

First, the Romanian government asked László Kövér, speaker of the house, not to visit Romania and campaign on behalf of a Fidesz inspired and sponsored Hungarian political party called Magyar Polgári Párt (Hungarian Civic Party). For years there was only one Hungarian party in Transylvania, RMDSZ (Román-Magyar Demokratikus Szövetség), a right-of-center party that played an important role, often as a coalition partner, in Romanian political life. Fidesz was opposed to RMDSZ and made sporadic efforts to establish other Hungarian parties that would take a much more aggressive and nationalistic attitude toward Bucharest. As a result there are now three Hungarian parties, including one that was organized by László Tőkés and was also sponsored by Fidesz. On Sunday we will see how the Hungarian vote splits among these three parties.

László Kövér called the members of the Romanian government uncivilized barbarians, and the Romanian politicians paid back in kind. According to Andrei Marga, the Romanian foreign minister, Kövér misused the right to campaign across borders in order to instigate irreconcilable differences among citizens and countries. The Romanian prime minister went further. He announced point blank that “László Kövér is not a friend and not welcome in Romania.” According to him, the ” rules of good neighborliness have been violated by Kövér who went to Romania to set fire in certain parts of Transylvania.”  He accused of Kövér of wanting to radicalize the Hungarian minority against the Romania state. According to Ponta, “Kövér came to Romania with a clear strategy of provocation.”

Romanian politicians are convinced that the current Hungarian government wants to create conflicts within the Hungarian community and between the Hungarian and the Romanian majority. The question is why. What does Fidesz and the Orbán government hope to gain by all this? I very much doubt that the Fidesz-sponsored Magyar Polgári Párt will do spectacularly as a result of the circus surrounding the reburial of a Transylvanian Hungarian writer of decidedly fascist sympathies. I also doubt that Kövér’s campaign tour lasting three days will make any difference in the outcome of the elections. If I am right, why would the Orbán government risk good relations with an important neighboring country?

I cannot come up with a sensible explanation except that the Fidesz leaders are ideologues. They have “a mission.” To re-form the nation in their own image. Or perhaps even the whole world. And if someone thinks that this is an exaggeration may I remind people of some of the utterances of Viktor Orbán about the world that will follow the Hungarian example. I think they truly believe in that “fairy tale.”  Their vision of the world is based on fantasy.

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buda_pest
Guest

In my opinion it is all about developing situations that will further increase their patriotic vote in 2014.

An
Guest

Wish these were only rational domestic political (mis)calculations but they go further than that. They are part of a grandiosity complex in which Orban and Kover truly sees themselves as the restorers of the old glorious days of greater Hungary.

An
Guest

“Their vision of the world is based on fantasy.”
I’d use the word “madness” instead of “fantasy”. I think they have crossed the line between the two.

Louis Kovach
Guest

And for a more balanced view: http://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/ceweekly/2012-05-30/erosion-romanianhungarian-partnership
It was not Hungary that started the current deterioration.

Ron
Guest

I would read this article again if I were you.

“The increase in tension

Over the past year political struggle has been escalating inside Romania, and Budapest has been emphasising its support for the collective rights of the Hungarian minority in the neighbouring countries ever more strongly. Due to this, relations with Hungary have become an object of dispute on the Romanian political scene.”

Louis Kovach
Guest
Louis Kovach
Guest

Please read further on “Relations with Hungary worsened in spectacular fashion in the first month of operation of the new, centre-left cabinet led by Victor Ponta. Budapest responded negatively to one of the first decisions taken by the new Romanian government, namely to withdraw its support for the separate path of education of physicians in Hungarian at the Targu Mures university.”

I do not want to insert the entire article here. I presume anybody can read tha whole paper.

LwiiH
Guest

I’m with Ron, you’d better read this again. What I read in this report is that Hungary is meddling in internal affairs of another country. Gee, I wonder why they are upset?

And I wish you’d stop cherry picking points that support your POV while ignoring those that don’t

Guest

London Calling!

Well put, LwiiH – the interloper has been sussed.

He takes a contrarian view for the sake of it; takes an aspect of Eva’s blog to disagree with (for the sake of it); and is an annoying little jerk that should have his own lonely little blog (for the sake of us all).

He throws very little light on these subjects.

Begone Kovach.

Regards

Charlie H

Member

The Hungarian Fidesz party is rallying and campaigning in Romania as well as other neighboring countries, it appears that they are wanting Hungarian minorities in those countries to become patriotic to them, I keep getting the sense that they may want to eventually gain nationalistic support for getting some of their land back. The reason I believe this is because of all of the propoganda being put forth regarding the treaty of Trianon and how unjust this is for Hungary. I know it sounds crazy, but then again they could beleive in that fairy tale too.

Guest
London Calling! Hard Talk. Memo to Orban: Trianon? ***Suck it up ***; Leave Romania alone: “To the victor the spoils.” I just don’t understand why Trianon was wrong? And why Hungarians keep harking back to it. Why is Trianon right right right? Because if Hungary was still Greater Hungary – then we in England and most of the world would be under the Hitler cosh – and Hungary would be too. Remember the Nazis who Horthy got into bed with blew up all your bridges in the last dying throws of the war as they left. Nice friends Horthy! Horthy is a war criminal – just lucky not to be prosecuted because of his friendship with the American ambassador. Even the Trianon boundaries would have been meaningless if Hitler had prevailed. Yes Trianon was a messy deal but Horthy’s ill-gotten gains from WW2 had to be confiscated. (Post-WW2 you might have had more international sympathy for an adjustment – but not after Horthy’s opportunism. It will NEVER change.) As you sow, so shall you reap. Did we in England want to be bombed to bits fighting Hitler ?– and you? The Raba factory was making armaments for Hitler and the… Read more »
LwiiH
Guest

Are we talking about WWII or WWI and the events that preceded WWI. Never mind, I’ve got a better idea, lets ask a Croatian about their views on what preceded WWI and Trianon. Again, people are cherry picking history to support their POV.

Guest

London Calling!

LwiiH! – I wouldn’t dream of teaching grandma to suck eggs!

Of course Trianon was a post-WW1 ‘settlement’ – but I was alluding to the WW2 consolidation after Horthy’s opportunism.

(So both WW1 and WW2.)

I haven’t got the full ramifications of your Croatian comment?

Regards

Charlie

Member

Lajos: “It was not Hungary that started the current deterioration.”

This maybe right, but this isn’t an excuse for the mindless stupidity what this government calls policy. Yes the neighboring countries still restrict minority rights but the Hungarian government’s job would be to protest these either directly or on the forums of the EU.

Instead these morons live this fairy tale of glorious great Hungary and as the governments between the world wars try to dominate the Hungarian minorities. You have to agree, that this “Romania started it” crap will not lead anywhere. Only pragmatism can help them. There are many ways to support them to preserve their Hungarian entity.

This fuckery in Romania, when Fidesz is trying to gain support by trying to divide the Hungarian minority is insane.

PS: Lajos, seriously stop this copy paste nonsense. There is certain etiquette here and in many other blogs. First summarize the article in your own words then tell your opinion about it then at the and mention the source but again assume that most of us won’t read your random articles from the google.

Member

Hmm .. I became Mojo. It’s Mutt Damon.

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

The reason for Hungarian provocation could be

“The Hungarian minority in Romania faces an even bigger disaster in November’s parliamentary election. Around 400,000 Hungarians have left Transylvania in the past two decades. As a consequence, the community’s political representation could diminish to the minimum of mandatory delegates that every minority in Romania is entitled to.

Not only that, but no fewer than three Hungarian parties are standing in the election, and the number of Hungarian votes will barely be enough to allow one of them to clear the 5 percent hurdle necessary to enter parliament.

But perhaps, viewed cynically, this is precisely Orban’s plan – to encourage as many disenfranchised and disappointed Hungarians to return to Hungary as possible. That would secure Orban’s party a stable and long-term voter base. It would also ease Hungary’s chronic demographic problems, without relying on the immigration of non-Hungarians.”

Source: http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15991580,00.html

gdfxx
Guest

I think it is not even necessary for the Hungarians from Romania to move to Hungary in order to improve Orban’s voting base. All they have to do is to apply for Hungarian citizenship and presto, they can vote in Hungary’s elections.

Louis Kovach
Guest

I was not cherry-picking> I have cited the ENTIRE article, which is balanced, it presents issues with both sides> I have not read anything in Dr Balogh’s posting about the medical school language issues, etc.

Louis Kovach
Guest

KF> I wonder if you have a good reason for the 400,000 Hungarians leaving Rumania? Generally, folks don’t emigrate without reason.

Odin's Lost eye
Guest
Professor you wrote ** “I cannot come up with a sensible explanation except that the Fidesz leaders are ideologues. They have “a mission.”” **. Yes they do have a mission and it is weird and very nationalistic. It is that, the leaders of Fidesz want to establish a worldwide super nation of Hungarians. Just after his landslide victory in July 2010 Orban Viktor issued a letter of ‘National Co-operation’ (see Orbán’s proclamation of national cooperation on every wall). This letter implies that ALL will co-operate with the Hungarian Government. By ALL, it means everyone no matter where the live, who is of Hungarian origin will co-operate with and be part of the ‘New Global Hungarian Commonwealth’ which will look to Budapest for leadership. All of you (yes even you Professor) will work tirelessly for Hungary. It is an extension of the old Nazi ‘Bund’ idea in the USA of the late 30’s early 40’s. You, all of you will work tirelessly for Hungary In the matter of the plan to ‘upset the Romanians’. That is part of the idea to try and stir up repression of the Transylvanians and build up an active resistance like the Provisional IRA. Karl you… Read more »
Ovidiu
Guest

“In the matter of the plan to ‘upset the Romanians’. That is part of the idea to try and stir up repression of the Transylvanians and build up an active resistance like the Provisional IRA.”

Exactly. The consensus which has emerged these days in Romania (during and after the “Nyiro-Kover” debacle) is that Orban’s Hungary tries to provoke negative reactions which can then exploit politically through the radical parties which Fidesz supports in Transilvania, and that Romania should not respond but be wise and avoid playing right into Orban’s game.

But this (refraining to react) is basically what the previous Romanian government has done too since Fidesz came to power in 2010 and the good relation (which was carefully built in the 2005-2010 period) came under pressure, deteriorated, because of Fidesz’s leaders declarations and actions
(many of them since 2010, this Nyiro-affair was the last in a series, and each time the mass-media wrote about the but the Govt. kept silent and invoked the mantra of “good relation” while the opposition, of course, protested and demanded that a reply be given….now the then opposition has got in power and discovers that there was wisdom in the way the previous government dealt with Orban).

Ovidiu
Guest
Pfeifer–“will barely be enough to allow one of them to clear the 5 percent hurdle necessary to enter parliament.” The electoral-law has been changed recently (22 May) in Romania by the new government and the system changed from the proportional-system to the uninominal-system (as in UK and US). As a side effect of this change the 5% threshold has been removed. Furthermore, an amendment to the law states in those electoral districts where an ethnic minority represents above 7% that minority is granted an additional parliamentary representative in case that it doesn’t win one at the ballots (“additional” because in Romania each of the 18 recognized ethnic minorities is granted one parliamentary representative regardless of its numbers) The combined effect of removing the 5% threshold and granting by default one representative in circumscriptions where they are +7% means that the Romanian-Hungarians will be represented in the future parliament in the same proportion as their percent of the population. RMDSZ conceded that this will be case, that the new law would not affect the Hungarian minority representation, did not vote against the new electoral law and did not challenge it at the Constitutional Court (few days ago Laszlo Borbely, a leader… Read more »
Karl Pfeifer
Guest

Ovidiu, it is not my text as I’ve indicated. The quote is from Deutsche Welle.
The way most Romanians perceive the Nyirö affair seems to be realistic. Until now the reaction of the new Romanian government is not to fall into the trap of Mr. Kövér. In Hungary the nationalistic mainstream is propagating ethnic and cultural homogenity this seems not the case in Romania.
Hopeful in Romania the Hungarian satellite parties of Fidesz will not be successful.
One of the arguments against the new Romanian gov. is the reluctance to open up a school of medicine in Hungarian language. Could you inform us, about this subject matter?

gdfxx
Guest

Ovidiu, can you please clarify, how the process of getting an additional place in the 7% districts is going to work? Is this member going to be selected from one of the two or three competing Hungarian parties, based on their competing election numbers?

Odin's Lost eye
Guest

A bit off topic I have found my avatar it is here . How do I get to set things up?
Anyone help?

Member

Odin’s Lost eye :
A bit off topic I have found my avatar it is here . How do I get to set things up?
Anyone help?

Top right menu bar click on your username
In the window that opens => left menu bar, under Settings => click Public Profile
In the window that opens => under Personal => scroll to Current Gravatar=> click Change your Gravatar
new window will open and explains everything

Odin's Lost eye
Guest

Many thanks Some 1 I will try it later
Rdgs
Odin’s lost eye

oneill
Guest

“I cannot come up with a sensible explanation except that the Fidesz leaders are ideologues”.
Some undoubtedly are, some (in particular the Fuhrer) are merely power-obsessed opportunists who would burn their granny at the stake if they thought it would mean a few more years at top of the tree.

Tension in ethnic Hungarian areas and the Hungarian regime’s ultra-nat response strengthens Fidesz’s standing among the more realistic of the ultra-nats, who realise the ultimate pointlessness of Jobbik. The proposal to give Hungarians outside Hungary still stands? Well, there is another reason to provoke the Romanian and Slovakian administrations into a tit/for/tat ethnic bickering match.

Finally, I disagree that Translyvania is a “hell of hole”- some of it contains some of the most breathtaking scenery in Europe and the people (or at least the ones we’ve met on our visits there) are really amongst the nicest Hungarians that I have had the pleasure to encounter. They really don’t deserve fascist scum like Kover coming down and trying to provoke an ethnic conflict with their Romanian neighbours.

I highly recommend the village of Sovata for a bit of good old fashioned R&R and anyone interested in decent accomodation there, just let me know;)

Ovidiu
Guest
Pfeifer– a school of medicine in Hungarian language…could you inform us, about this subject matter ? At this moment the UMF-Targu Mures has two sections : the Hungarian language section and in the Romanian language section (and it has had the Hungarian language line of study for a long time, in some ways-form even back in the communist times). What does this mean ? That if you want to, you choose so, you can have the entrance examination in Hungarian (i.e. compete on the Hungarian section reserved places, 50% of them ) and, if you succeed, then afterwards study medicine (have all courses) in the Hungarian language until you finish your studies and become doctor. What is still in common with the Romanian-language section is the “practical works” sections (laboratories, university hospital practice with ill people) which are held in the Romanian language and along with (ethnic)Romanian students. Thus there are already two departments and thus Hungarian language education (from the entrance exam to the finish-licence exam, and 50% of the UMF students are at the Hungarian section) but the departments are not separated institutionally and administratively. Thus you can have teachers from the Hungarian department teaching at the Romanian-section… Read more »
Karl Pfeifer
Guest

Thank you Ovidiu. It is very sad, that in Hungary this is not known.

Ovidiu
Guest
Well, the politicians have a rhetorical interest to mislead. For instance even Orban said once in relation with this topic something about “a new department with Hungarian as the language of instruction” . It sounds more powerful this way, you see is about the right to education in the Hungarian language which is denied. But it is not about that, it is about ethnically separated and autonomous public-(state owned) institutions. As far as the student&education is concerned one can study at UMF-Tg.Mures in the Hungarian language from start to finish (except patients&labs work, as I said). A student from the Hungarian section can even go to Szeged and do there the work for the license-thesis and then return to Targu Mures to defend it. However one should also realize how powerful symbolically is a University and thus realize why all the ethno-political fuss about it. Realize also that this kind of separation has been granted legally and has already been done by law where it was easy (at UBB-Cluj since spring 2011 for instance, as I said) therefore realize that opposition to this idea not that straightforward as suggested by some. And realize that it was not done so at… Read more »
An
Guest
Well, from the Hungarian press the picture is a little different (and this is not Fidesz press). http://index.hu/kulfold/2012/05/02/magyarokkal_packazna_az_uj_roman_kormany/ The main claims of the article: 1. the new Romanian government has plans to dismiss the Hungarian unit of the medical school 2. the establishment of the unit was the reason why the vote of confidence was initiated against the previous government (in which the government failed to get enough votes, hence the establishment of the new government) 3. The previous government made it compulsory for the university to establish a Hungarian and an English language unit, and the government had to do that because the university did not abide by the law that required the university to organize the Hungarian language education in a separate unit. It is possible, that the University’s reluctance to organize Hungarian language instruction in a separate unit is only due to technical reasons…. but it is likely that it’s also a prestige issue, for both the Romanians and the Hungarians. I think with enough goodwill a solution to this problem could be easily found (have separate institutional units that use some facilities jointly), but probably it is the goodwill and trust that is missing from both… Read more »
Ovidiu
Guest
—“the new Romanian government has plans to dismiss the Hungarian unit of the medical school” What ?? this is such a complete, outrageous nonsense that I don’t think it is worth replying. It is blatant, naked, manipulation, also quite stupid. Once again, it seems that there is a need to imagine strong (would be) arguments because otherwise they are lacking. –was the reason why the vote of confidence was initiated There was very long list of reasons, that was just one of them and not the beef. The govt. fell fundamentally because of its unpopularity, because the many austerity measures taken during its rule, the frustrations accumulated. Back in February there were big street demonstrations and street fights with the police in Bucharest, and many other major cities in the country. It was due to fall, he should have falled in March by the president Basescu manipulated the thing to have first the new agreement with IMF signed. — because the university did not abide by the law that required the university to organize the Hungarian language education in a separate unit. That’s correct, the rector of the UMF-University opposed this institutional separation (for the many reasons which I wrote… Read more »
LwiiH
Guest

+1 on the thank yiou Ovidiu. My parity to this is the University of Ottawa. It’s a French and English University where classes are taught either in French or English depending on who gets assigned to teach a course during any particular term. The students are expected to cope in either language. I really don’t see a problem with this model and I don’t see a need for two separate institutions.

What your explanation does is paints an even worse picture of this governments meddling in the affairs of a neighboring county.

@Mutt, Croatia was an administrative part of Hungary just as Hungary was an administrative part of Austria. There’s a whole lot of skull drudgery around how the came to be but the Croat’s were not very happy about the arrangement. But, in Hungary this historical fact is passed over as it weakens their case for being screwed over.

Ovidiu
Guest

Thanks, LwiiH, but I have to say that you can not truly compare the situation here in Est-Europe with US&Canada.
Here the ethno-cultural divisions run deeper and they have a long (since the French Revolution) history of being politicized. Thus what works well for Canada may not be perceived as “well” or “good enough” here.

But let’s hope that we will eventually become as relaxed as you are on these issues. Ethno-politics have not done us much good yet it has brought us two devastating European wars.

An
Guest

As for the reasons for the vote of confidence, the original Hungarian article does say that the issue of the independent Hungarian unit at the university was ONE of the reason for the vote of confidence. It was only my hasty translation that in my post it sounds like that they were suggesting that it was the sole reason; Index didn’t claim that. I apologize, wanted to write “one of” but somehow slipped and only noticed the mistake after I posted the thing.

Louis Kovach
Guest

Ovidiu. Isn’t it correct that there was an agreement regarding the Tirgu Mores Med School, but the one of first acts of the new (current Rumanian) government to rescind the agreement?

Ovidiu
Guest

No, there was a decision/order of the Govt. to separate (create a new university) which the rector of UMF-Tg.Mures (Dr.Copotoiu) simply refused acknowledge as being a legal order and instead sued the Govt. for issuing the very order.
The court judged the case and decided in favor of the rector (thus against the Govt.) and then the Govt. immediately appealed that decision of the court (it may go this way with appeals and counter-appeals up to the Supreme-Court where it ends)..but in the meantime the M.R. Ungureanu Govt. fell.
What the new V. Ponta Govt. did, as soon as it was invested, was to withdraw the Govt. appeal thus recognizing the decision of the fist court and ending the legal case.

Odin's Lost eye
Guest

Ovidiu I think that this new legislation needs quite a lot of revision and perhaps some form of ‘joint parliamentary enquiry’ (politicos and University heads led by a retired high court judge) this would ‘hear evidence’ from interested parties/institutions. It would also receive and consider written evidence from the public. Any way it would be a neat ‘delaying exercise in the process of “If it aint broken don’t mend it”!
Ovidiu you wrote ** “it is not about students & studying in the Hungarian language but about separating the teachers & administration, is about creating separate-autonomous institutions based on ethnic-linguistic affiliation.” **
Surely if a nation is to be successful it must be united and this means fully integrated, tolerant of their differences and guarding each other’s rights (and each other’s backs). I have seen the results of ‘separate development’ and believe you me, it is not nice, no not nice at all!

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

Thank you Ovidiu and thank you Eva for the clarification
So again an example of nationalist desinformation.

LwiiH
Guest

Gak, my @Mutt should have been @charlie…

Paul
Guest

Viktor Ponta, Viktor Yanukovych, Orbán Viktor…

Ovidiu
Guest

nomen est omen

Kirsten
Guest

Why did you include Viktor Ponta in this list?

gdfxx
Guest

I guess he must have heard what one of my friends told me recently: Ponta is part of the same organized crime syndicate that includes all party leaders in Romania, they keep replacing each others to make the people “happy”.

Paul
Guest

Because his name is Viktor!

LwiiH
Guest
Ovidiu : Thanks, LwiiH, but I have to say that you can not truly compare the situation here in Est-Europe with US&Canada. Are you so arrogant to believe that Hungary is the only country that may have cause for grievances? How about French/English in Canada. Granted the last (real, 1812 was more about Brit/US with France supporting the US) war was on the Plains of Abraham (1739) but you do realize that France has meddled in Canadian affairs for…. forever, there was the FLQ incident in the 70s, the infamous de Gaulle speech in Montreal, the referendums for Quebec independence and a whole pile of other things. So there is plenty of reasons for deep seeded animosity. But at the end of the day, you can start shooting or you start a dialog and try to settle things peacefully. In the case of Canada we came to some compromise that allowed for peaceful coexistence and in fact… mutual benefit. Canada is much much richer (not just money) for this. What the right wing and nationalists have yet to learn is that you can’t get very far forcing everyone to adhere to your ideology. You also don’t create friends with unwanted… Read more »
Ovidiu
Guest

I did not intend to appear arrogant. I stated my perception that there is a difference.
A difference not of kind (because the problematic is the same) but of degree (I wrote that the differences here “run deeper”).
I just can’t imagine things in Canada really going south, people there seemed to me too civilized and laid back for such thing to ever happen no matter what.
I may be wrong, of course.

Member

Ovidiu :
I stated my perception that there is a difference.
A difference not of kind (because the problematic is the same) but of degree (I wrote that the differences here “run deeper”).
I just can’t imagine things in Canada really going south, people there seemed to me too civilized and laid back for such thing to ever happen no matter what.
I may be wrong, of course.

I have to agree with LwiiH. THere is a huge “hurt” in Canada regarding the the French-English divide. It is very civilized although, but if you find yourself in the wring place in Montreal you may not get served if you do not speak French. lol Please, do not forget the Marshall law that in 1970 Trudeou brought in the Martial Law against the nationalists. Although Canada is officially bilingual and they teach basic French in all English school, it is not the case the other way around. Also try to expend the French program in an English school and you have no idea about the resistance from some parents who literally bring in Plains of Abraham to the their petition for an all English Canada.

Member

LwiiH :
Are you so arrogant to believe that Hungary is the only country that may have cause for grievances?.

I don’t see how was Ovidiu arrogant …

Canucks may exhibit the same nationalistic idiocy time to time as we do in the middle of Europe but the quality of the education seems to be more important to them. In one of the poorest countries in the region these guys still want to have an independent Hungarian institution even if it goes against common sense.

LwiiH
Guest

@mutt, fair enough, I won’t say we’ve gotten it right all t he time and the current government is more akin to OV than we’d like but that said, unless the situation is completely unjust, we’re not out in people’s faces interfering with their domestic situations.

If the Romanians of Hungarian decent want an independent institution let them pay for it. No one should object to that.

enufff
Guest

HU has to somehow learn to put some parts of history to sleep. No point keep putting salt in it..can we just move on?

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

Ovidiu, the demand to teach medicine only in Hungarian is O.K. in Hungary, albeit in Budapest one can learn medicine in English if one pays tuition. But if a doctor is to remain in Romania in a territory where Hungarians and Romanians dwell, then it is a must to know both languages. So probably Hungarian nationalists want to have those young doctors to go to Hungary and so compensate for those many Hungarian doctors (about 100 per month) who leave their country because they think extra Hungariam est vita.

Louis Kovach
Guest

LwiiH “but you do realize that France has meddled in Canadian affairs for…. forever,”
And I am very glad that France meddled in British American affairs also, otherwise ther wouldn’t be a USA.

LwiiH
Guest

err, this is beyond cherry picking and is leaning toward rewriting… but I’m game… do explain.

Member

Louis Kovach :
I am very glad that France meddled in British American affairs also, otherwise ther wouldn’t be a USA.

HMMM. Very interesting point of view from someone who feels Trianon was unjust for Hungary. So, you do not hold the same opinion on 1783 Treaty of Paris? Not for a moment you think that the support from the French came as a payback for the Plaines of Abraham? Interesting to see a Fidesz supporter hypocrisy in action when it is at his own backyard.

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