The hunters and the hunted: Kuruc.info’s list of anti-Hungarians

The first detailed description of the flashmob that took place in front of László Csatáry’s house on July 16 was published in Kanadai Magyar Hírlap. The author of the article was Eszter Garai-Édler, a participant, who was subsequently identified by some of the readers of kuruc.info. The threats against her have been relentless ever since. Two came from Béla Varga himself, who offered a bounty of 75,000 forints to the most diligent “informers” on the identities of the demonstration’s participants. One of the threatening letters was in English and ended with: “A friendly advice … . get life insurance.”

Soon enough some Hungarian-language newspapers and Internet sites reported on the flashmob organized by Jewish activists and sympathizers, but I couldn’t find anything in Magyar Nemzet, for example. Garai-Édler remarked in her story of the demonstration that the Hungarian media didn’t seem to be interested in their planned demonstration. Mostly foreign journalists were present. In fact, it was AFP that reported at length on the event. The articles all mentioned the harassment the organizers suffered after being identified on kuruc.info’s website.

The answer was an immediate counterattack by the editors of kuruc.info. The article entitled “Poor Jewish students are being harassed by the readers of Kuruc.info” was written in the inimitable style of this neo-Nazi site that leveled a personal attack against one of the organizers, Andrea Gergely of the Union of European Jewish Students. Kuruc.info was greatly offended that Gergely went to the police and demanded an investigation of  the website’s practice of listing e-mail addresses and telephone numbers of people whose political views they don’t like.

After Andrea Gergely’s visit to the police, the Union of Jewish Religious Communities (Mazsihisz) also filed a complaint at the Supreme Prosecutor’s Office because of the publication of personal data as well as the threats received by the identified participants.

Gábor Sajósi, Mrs. Ferenc Démeth, and Eszter Garai-Édler, Népszabadság, Miklós Teknős

One can no longer find any information on Facebook on either Andrea Gergely or Eszter Garai-Édler, two of the participants mentioned by name on kuruc.info. But even the less prominent members of the group severed their ties with the well known social networks. However, Garai-Édler talked at length to a reporter for Népszabadság. Although she was deeply shaken by the hundreds of threatening letters, phone calls, and ugly comments, she doesn’t regret her participation in the event. In fact, she felt that the reaction of the neo-Nazis clearly shows that there is need for such actions. “It tells a lot about the state of the country when certain people take up the cause of a former ghetto commander with such determination,” she added. Another person who was identified, Gábor Sajósi, was taking the whole affair in stride. As he said, nothing can surprise him anymore. According to kuruc.info, Sajósi  is “a true Gyurcsányist.” Garai-Édler considers herself to be committed to the values of liberal democracy and has been politically active, especially since the fall of 2009 when it became obvious that liberal democracy in Hungary was in crisis. As a civilian she has been responsible for several anti-government demonstrations. The third person on the photo, Mrs. Ferenc Démeth, was lucky. Kuruc.info activists didn’t manage to get her name.

The Jerusalem Post also visited kuruc.info and reported that the website is full of antisemitic imagery, including a Nazi hammer crushing the Star of David. The paper specifically quoted these passages: “They [the Jews] complain about various crimes when they are responsible for corrupting our country into communism and later into capitalism” and “They are responsible for the death of many thousands of Hungarians, for the emigration of hundreds of thousands, for the killing of six million fetuses….” I’m especially intrigued by the “killing of six million fetuses.”  The Post added that “the Hungarian embassy in Israel on Sunday declined to comment on the website.” I must say that the Hungarian foreign service personnel are an inept bunch. Surely, they could condemn the site in the strongest of terms and assure the Israeli journalists that the Hungarian government is doing everything it legally can to shut down the site. Assuming, of course, that it is.

According to Népszabadság, an official of the Ministry of Interior told the paper’s reporter that the Ministry had already requested the assistance of the FBI, the CIA , the U.S. Department of Justice, and the U.S. Embassy in Budapest. However, he refused to give any details about the Ministry’s own efforts at discovering the identities of the authors and editors of kuruc.info.

It is possible that the national security offices–there are several of them–have been hard at work identifying the men and women behind kuruc.info and the only reason for not divulging any information on the topic is caution. After all, any leaked information might interfere with the investigation. It is also possible, however, that the Hungarians simply dropped the whole problem into the lap of the American authorities. Viktor Orbán’s rather impertinent answer to the fifty U.S. congressmen’s letter would indicate that the Hungarian authorities weren’t overly concerned with kuruc.info. American server, American problem.

The real Béla Varga

Finally, Pusztaranger was correct.  Kurucwanted.blogspot wrongly identified the pictures. However, there still might be some connection between the two Vargas because the Californian Béla Varga is also from Mór. Moreover, he seems to have purchased a vineyard near the town. As for his association with Callaway Vineyard&Winery, it seems to have been of short duration. He is now the owner of Red Paprika, a deli in Healdsburg, California where he lives. Red Paprika seems to be a modest establishment because it is described by the sole reviewer of the business as “a little Hungarian store off the beaten path … a quaint little shop. I found a few items in here that were nice, and purchased some interesting tea that makes lovely iced tea, but for the most part, most of the items didn’t come across as totally unique.” As for the Béla Vargas on Facebook, there are absolutely hundreds of them. But Pusztaranger found two walls that most likely belong to him. On one of them we can find among his 150 friends György Budaházy, the man who is currently under indictment for terrorism. The other one seems to be newer, with fewer friends. Both are closed sites.

138 comments

  1. Hungarian citizens in Budapest have been threatened.
    Isn’t that the responsibility of the
    Hungarian government and police to investigate it?
    How can Orban say it’s not his (Hungary’s) problem?

    Seems like a classic case of abdication of responsibilty.
    (Oh yes, I forgot: Jews are not ‘Hungarians’, they’re Isrealites.)

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  2. An elderly Hungarian man had been threteaned by a jewish mob. Who is being detained, held under house arrest, the innocent Hungarian elderly man, the flashmobbers don’t even get a parking ticket.
    Seems like a classic case of double standard to me.
    (Oh,yes, I forgot: the elderly man is a “Nazi”.)

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  3. b.v :
    An elderly Hungarian man had been threteaned by a jewish mob. Who is being detained, held under house arrest, the innocent Hungarian elderly man, the flashmobbers don’t even get a parking ticket.
    Seems like a classic case of double standard to me.
    (Oh,yes, I forgot: the elderly man is a “Nazi”.)

    Are you crazy b.v.? THe elderly man willingly participated in the killing and torture of hundreds of innocent children and adults. How can you call this monster innocent elderly man? You are out of your mind! Maybe some of the members of the “jewish mob” had their fathers and mothers killed by the actions of this bastard innocent elderly man. I wish your mother would experienced the faith that this innocent man brought onto many. Of course do not take offense, since he is innocent. (Of course he does not have a parking ticket, he is 96. THank goodness he does not drive.)

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  4. b.v :

    An elderly Hungarian man had been threteaned by a jewish mob. Who is being detained, held under house arrest, the innocent Hungarian elderly man, the flashmobbers don’t even get a parking ticket.
    Seems like a classic case of double standard to me.
    (Oh,yes, I forgot: the elderly man is a “Nazi”.)

    Mob? You must be kidding. Do you know the difference between a mob and a peaceful demonstration? The mob comes from your side. It was a mob that attacked the television station or was throwing rocks at the police and burned up cars.

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  5. Can everybody calm down?
    The flashmob is ok.
    The old man is a war criminal.
    I think the task is to call flashmob 24/7 in front of the homes of
    Vona
    Morvai
    Balczo
    Szegedi
    and the Gyontospata Oszkarka….

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  6. Mutt Damon :
    Ok, I think, we chatted enough with this dick. I’d say let’s leave him alone.

    It will be hard Mutt, but I will try.

    No, if anyone wonders why many of us does not use our real names, they should just read Eva’s blog entry today. I have all the respect and admiration for Ms. Balogh, Ms Scheppele, and the few others who do dare to use their real names. (THis does not goes for the ones who support nazis, because obviously they have nothing to be afraid of).

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  7. Muutdamon&Co. Not so fast dummyboy. Actually, you really do think, you and your grouppies can get away with what you’re doing to a defenceless old men don’t you? Well, let me tell you pal, what goes around, comes around. Keep using aliases, since you’re so brave anonymously. Did you honestly fathom, that people will sit idly by while your intolerable kind crucify an elderly man just because your jewish types feel like it? Dream on honeybunch.

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  8. b.v., thank you for visiting the Hungarian Spectrum. This is very frightening but in a way I think it is good that you are here and we can face your comments.
    I know that we won’t be able to change your mind with arguments, but still let me tell you a less known fact about Mr. Csatary. Everyone mentions his role and behavior in 1944. Well, I read that there are witnesses from 1941. Mr Csatary was head of the passport department at the Hungarian police in Kassa. He sent 300 so called “alien Jews” to Kamanec-Podolsk. Those people were all murdered already in 1941 and Mr. Csatary knew this. This did not happen under German occupation. This was the diligent work of Mr Csatary and the Hungarian police under Horthy’s leadership. Mr. Csatary is not only a war criminal but also an important witness to the actions of the sovereign Hungarian state before German occupation.

    Why do you think that someone who assisted in murdering Hungarian Jews is an innocent man? Please explain me. Why murdering children is not a sin?
    Thank you

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  9. Varangy.blogspot.com
    “Eva S. Balogh, you are a stupid Communist old cunt, aren’t you? So, here is the skinny in this trite yet so important idiotic blogging game we play.”
    Interesting material. Check into it.

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  10. koeszmeod., yes I guess it’s good that we exchange views on what had happened during the war. What I object vehemently to is the one-sided interpretation of historical events. It’s always been represented as if only the jews were subject to persecution. All that in the name of making money. how disgusting is that?
    As to the topic at hand. The jews had invented, introduced and implemented communism, terror in Hungary after WW1. I don’t mention what they’d done in Russia. The higher echelons of these regimes responsible for millions of peoples’ excrutiating deaths were jews. From A to Z. On the coattails of the Red army committing unspeakable atrocities in the occupied countries, they became their communist lackeys, terrorizing the local, indigenous populations.
    Let me ask you. Did you see any one of them hung after 1989?
    According to your logic, a war criminal can only be, whom the victors, in this instance the jews labeled to be one. How justified a behaviour! Cangoroo courts. AVH, full of jews.
    Tell me. Why should I give a rat’s ass about any one of them being interned during the war? They were our enemies. Aided our enemies. Became the governonrs of our occupiers.

    Thank you

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  11. Oh, internment…if I’m not mistaken, the US and Canadian governments interned their “internal enemies of Japanese descent” without hesitation in a heartbeat. None received compensation for their pain and suffering.
    The jews were openly hoping for the Allied victory. What normal country does not at least eliminate their presence as a fifth coloumn during wartime? Let’s not kid ourselves.

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  12. Ms. Balogh, “Mob? You must be kidding. Do you know the difference between a mob and a peaceful demonstration? The mob comes from your side. It was a mob that attacked the television station or was throwing rocks at the police and burned up cars.”

    Did you pull this rabbit out of your friend Kinga Goncz’s hat? Everyone knows, that it was a staged intelligence mob scene orchestrated by gyurcsany&co. in order to justify unleashing subsequent unspeakable terror in the streets and prisons of Budapest by his “police”. Who are you kidding Ms. Balogh?
    The flashmob kids were riled up by the crook Zuroff, who should have been banned from even entering the country., harrassed an elderly, frail man at home and when things turn ugly (let me translate it in plain hungarian for you…amikor a fagyi visszanyal), run for their lives, to the police, Attorney General and who knows where. They deserve what they’re getting. A lesson.

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  13. Some1 : “Are you crazy b.v.? THe elderly man willingly participated in the killing and torture of hundreds of innocent children and adults. How can you call this monster innocent elderly man? You are out of your mind! Maybe some of the members of the “jewish mob” had their fathers and mothers killed by the actions of this bastard innocent elderly man. I wish your mother would experienced the faith that this innocent man brought onto many. Of course do not take offense, since he is innocent. (Of course he does not have a parking ticket, he is 96. THank goodness he does not drive.)’

    Alright Some1. Ask them. Let’s ask them, if any one of their forebears perished as a result of Mr. Csatary’s actions. Fair enough? I hope you support this endevour for clearing up this loose end of the story? How about that?

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  14. b.v. Do I understand this well? You wrote “The jews were openly hoping for the Allied victory. What normal country does not at least eliminate their presence as a fifth coloumn during wartime?” Is it a sin in your eyes to hope for Allied victory? Does it mean that you justify what Hitler and his allies did?

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  15. koeszmeod, You understood correctly. Hungary had to choose between two evils. A bad and a horrific. As it panned out the later prevailed. The Allies were our enemies, because they sided with the horrific. We knew what to expect should the jewish-bolshevik regime overrun the country (as history proved it hands down), we knew Europe had been carved up without the slightest consideration of borders, national self-determination, elections and such mundane, miscellanious hurdles by the Big Three. Oh, sorry they were not a bunch of war criminals and crooks. They were the victors.
    Hitler fought for his nation tooth and nail. In no different manner than did the Brits or the Russians. It was a fight to the end of endurance. He lost. In the meantime though naturally tried to get rid of his internal enemies. The jews. Just like the Americans with the Japanese. How come you don’t get astonished about that little sideshow? Do you justify what the US government did to them?

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  16. I am really shocked by this thread. Did kuruc.info take over this blog? I think if Eva wanted to demonstrate what these worms are capable of writing, she has done it. As far as I am concerned, I had enough.

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  17. koeszmeod, may I also point out to you, that Hitler and Mussolini were the only ones, who overturned the completely unjust Trianon Treaty of 1920 forcing the artificial countries created by the victorious allies to cede stolen territory back to their rightful owner, Hungary. At the time the country was not in an enviable position. To the east, the jewish bolsheviks, to the west a powerful Germany. For years Hitler grumbled under his mustache, that while his panzers bleed to dry out east, in Budapest jews sit around in cafees rooting for bolshevism to win hoping that under their coattails they could subjugate the very nation, that gave them home. Do you know what hideous crimes these jews committed against defenceless, innocent civilians just in Hungary? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn’t have posed your last question.

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  18. gdfxx, you see what a little bit of education can do, even for the completely brainwashed like yourself? Eva demonstrated jackshit. The only thing she has demonstrated throughout her life has been her ceaseless anti-hungarianism and pro-zionism. Don’t leave, hang around, you may have some other tidbits to stick.

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  19. gdfxx :
    I am really shocked by this thread. Did kuruc.info take over this blog? I think if Eva wanted to demonstrate what these worms are capable of writing, she has done it. As far as I am concerned, I had enough.

    I fully agree.

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  20. So much hate from such a little man, this b.v. If he feels that Csatáry’s rights to privacy and dignity were being abused according to the Criminal Code, why not fund this “defenceless” little old suspected mass-murderer the same way as occurred with neo-fascist “freedom.fighters” such as Budaházy? Unless, of course, he doesn’t really give a flying one about this guy’s fate and is only interested in peddling his bitter, bigoted and anachronistic views.

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  21. Eva, the foul and perverted rantings of ‘bv’ contribute nothing to this blog or any sane discussion of these issues – except to remind us of just how insane and dangerous many Fidesz-Jobbik supporters are (and we don’t need his corruption of this blog to know that, the web is already full of such filth). Enough is more than enough.

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  22. @Eva, I appreciate your hands off comments approach but in this case the troll’s comments should really be deleted.

    I did a wee bit of poking about…

    https://www.domainsbyproxy.com/Default.aspx is hiding the identity of kuruc.org, the website that is actually providing content. These guys are in Scottsdale Az. Cloudflaire doesn’t host, it is what’s known as a content delivery network. This places content closer to the users of the site. That said, I did get some information that the server(s) is/are actually located in Europe.

    domainsbyproxy advertises this policy.

    “But don’t even think about using our service to spam, violate the law, or engage in morally objectionable activities.”

    kuruc.info uses Google mail. They are also registered on feedburner. http://feeds2.feedburner.com/Kurucinfo. As well I found a link to iwiw.hu which is definitively a Hungarian registered website. If memory serves me, they are hosted in the US. I don’t have an iwiw account so can’t comment on where that link leads to.

    I can also say that they are running off of a MS Windows server (so it wouldn’t be hard to bring it down for a while if one were so inclined to do so ;-))

    There is an interesting link to http://median.hu/ which is being used to provide style information (which is quite unusual and even more unusual given the sophistication of the site).

    zone-c: Euroweb Hostmaster
    address: Puskás Tivadar u. 8-10.
    address: H-2040 Budaörs
    address: HU
    phone: +36 1 889-7000
    fax-no: +36 1 889-7100
    hun-id: 3980104001

    registrar: Invitel Co.
    registrar: Invitel Távközlési Zrt. (Registrar)
    address: Puskás Tivadar út 8-10.
    address: H-2040 Budaörs
    address: HU
    phone: +36 1 889-7177
    fax-no: +36 1 880-0099
    hun-id: 1990301004

    Didn’t take very long to dig this up and so it seems if someone really wanted to do something….

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  23. I did a little bit of digging about but then my posting seems to have been lost… too bad. Findings
    1) Cloudflaire is a CDN and doesn’t actually host
    2) kuruc.org provides a lot of the content and it’s details are hidden by a proxy company in Scottsdale. That company has a policy against objectionable or immoral uses of the proxy.
    3) There is a hint that the servers are actually located in Europe.
    4) There is a strange connection with median.hu.
    5) It’s connected to iwiw.hu
    6) Server runs MS windows
    7) appears to have a healthy amount of traffic and has a current value of just over $1,000,000 (not sure how that valuation was arrived at).

    This was done with a little bit of snooping about… A real check would uncover a lot more so it seems as if no one is interested or……

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  24. b.v :
    Muutdamon&Co. Not so fast dummyboy. Actually, you really do think, you and your grouppies can get away with what you’re doing to a defenceless old men don’t you? Well, let me tell you pal, what goes around, comes around. Keep using aliases, since you’re so brave anonymously. Did you honestly fathom, that people will sit idly by while your intolerable kind crucify an elderly man just because your jewish types feel like it? Dream on honeybunch.

    Mr. non-anonymous b.v.,

    You’re obviously of the Fidesz/KDNP stripe, hence religiously
    Christian. So, let’s get back to the Bible: do you know this?
    “An eye for an eye”?
    So, let’s build a gas chamber in Debrecen. Put Csatary in a cattle car on the warmest day of summer; and put that vile, disgusting old man in their and ship him to the same fate he sent 15,000 women, children and old/young men.

    Chapary got to be 97: the people he stuffed into cattle-cars in 1944 did not.

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  25. b.v :
    koeszmeod., yes I guess it’s good that we exchange views on what had happened during the war. What I object vehemently to is the one-sided interpretation of historical events. It’s always been represented as if only the jews were subject to persecution. All that in the name of making money. how disgusting is that?
    As to the topic at hand. The jews had invented, introduced and implemented communism, terror in Hungary after WW1. I don’t mention what they’d done in Russia. The higher echelons of these regimes responsible for millions of peoples’ excrutiating deaths were jews. From A to Z. On the coattails of the Red army committing unspeakable atrocities in the occupied countries, they became their communist lackeys, terrorizing the local, indigenous populations.
    Let me ask you. Did you see any one of them hung after 1989?
    According to your logic, a war criminal can only be, whom the victors, in this instance the jews labeled to be one. How justified a behaviour! Cangoroo courts. AVH, full of jews.
    Tell me. Why should I give a rat’s ass about any one of them being interned during the war? They were our enemies. Aided our enemies. Became the governonrs of our occupiers.
    Thank you

    Yup, Stalin was a jewish ‘plant’ sent to infiltrate the seminary.
    And also: Stalin tried to hide his jewish roots by killing jewish doctors…

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  26. I hope some Yelp reviewers will add mention Mr Varga’s fascism and historical revisionism in thr page for Red Paprika. The vast majority of Americans, and certainly the people of Healdsburg, will not want to spend their money on a business whose owner is tied to a nazi website and one which now targets peaceful individuals using their rights of freedom of assembly and expression and explicitly identifies Jews among them.

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  27. Karl Pfeifer :
    Eva, please delete the nazi scribblings of b.v. He should publish his dirt where it belongs but not here.

    No, no. Can’t do that. He’s proof positive of the mindset that
    many Hungarians presently suffer from.

    In years to come, many will say, that’s what we thought like back then. There’s hope. Look at Germany today. German society does not tolerate 10% of what is deemed acceptable in Hungary today.

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  28. b.v :
    Varangy.blogspot.com
    “Eva S. Balogh, you are a stupid Communist old cunt, aren’t you? So, here is the skinny in this trite yet so important idiotic blogging game we play.”
    Interesting material. Check into it.

    and you wonder why your kind needs to be wipe out?! so much hate and filth!
    If you can’t be civilised in a discussion , please show yourself out!

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  29. London Calling!

    With people like b.v. around. Thank God we won!

    Trianon too.

    There are truly some nasty Hungarians around – no doubt.

    A thousand year old victorious nation? No!

    You’re rhetoric and logic are warped b.v.

    You and your kind are unwelcome on Eva’s site.

    Regards

    Charlie

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  30. Some of the comments posted on this topic have revealed a core of Hungarian people who have a deep hatred of those whose religion differs from theirs. How mediaeval!

    I was born just before the Cardinal War Date which brought down the last lot of this sort of filth. That date was just after 11:00 on September 3rd 1939. This was when the Royal Navy was ordered to blockade Germany and its allies. This blockade was so effective that by the winter of 1941 Germany knew that the war had to be won by late 1943 because of their shortage of raw materials.

    I have been against these toads my entire life and that includes you B.V. and your nasty little chums. To me you are just filth, filth, filth!

    CharlieH you wrote ** “There are truly some nasty Hungarians around – no doubt- a thousand year old victorious nation?” ** Hum Ho! If there are enough of such toads around then ‘God Help Hungary’ for with folk like that who needs enemies. May be Treaty Trianon was not harsh enough. May be it should have abolished the whole blooming lot.

    The problem of the kuruc.org web site is one of the big problems with the world wide web. It you censor a site like that then other sites can also be censored.

    The folk like he ‘FBI’ ‘Shin Bet’, and others will pick off those who finance and run it. Remember the FBI nailed Al Capone not for his reign of protection rackets and murder but for tax evasion.

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  31. esetleg szabad holnapra? :

    Can everybody calm down?
    The flashmob is ok.
    The old man is a war criminal.
    I think the task is to call flashmob 24/7 in front of the homes of
    Vona
    Morvai
    Balczo
    Szegedi
    and the Gyontospata Oszkarka….

    I have the feeling that b.v. is not familiar with the term “flashmob” and thinks that t it is something where a uncontrollable mob is rampaging on the streets.

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  32. Mr. b.v. seems to be expending a lot of effort here. His cage is obviously rattled. He must be feeling nervous, and it’s intriguing to watch. Eva is clearly onto something.

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  33. petofi :

    Karl Pfeifer :
    Eva, please delete the nazi scribblings of b.v. He should publish his dirt where it belongs but not here.

    No, no. Can’t do that. He’s proof positive of the mindset that
    many Hungarians presently suffer from.

    In years to come, many will say, that’s what we thought like back then. There’s hope. Look at Germany today. German society does not tolerate 10% of what is deemed acceptable in Hungary today.

    For us who are not familiar with this world Béla Varga’s appearance here might be educational. At least we know the shocking mindset of these people. However, I don’t think that it would be too wise to allow him to rant on this blog day in and day out. Therefore, his stay here will be brief.

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  34. “No, no. Can’t do that. He’s proof positive of the mindset that many Hungarians presently suffer from.”

    True – in as far as it goes. But ‘many’ should not be mistaken for ‘most’, or even ‘a large minority’.

    Most Hungarians are mildly racist and xenophobic, perhaps even more than mild, but this is entirely cultural – based on ignorance, not being essentially bad people. This is no excuse, and I fully realise that it’s exactly these people who have done nothing to stop the atrocities of the past, or even assisted in them, but it is entirely wrong to conflate those people with the likes of ‘bv’ and Jobbik.

    It’s an interesting exercise to compare the ‘real’ Hungary with what we read on the internet. I happened to read this post and its comments sitting in the local mall, waiting for the shops to open this morning, and it was a totally schizophrenic experience. The world I was reading about bore almost no relation at all to the one going on around me.

    OK, I’ve seen the Jobbik gatherings in Debrecen, openly displaying their silly waistcoat ‘uniform’ and their Árpád flags, and you didn’t see that 3 years ago, so I’m not pretending that this shift to the loony right isn’t happening or isn’t frightening, but the extreme aspects of it are still very much a minority involvement. Yes, it’s a vocal minority and it currently feels emboldened because of the atmosphere created by the idiot Orbán and his stop-at-nothing lust for power, but it’s still a very small minority.

    Unfortunately, my criticism of the unreality of much of what is presented on the web also extends to this blog. Again, I’m not saying that what Éva writes isn’t accurate or doesn’t need to be discussed, and much of what the comment writers say is worth reading, but the picture it paints of Hungary isn’t one I recognise ‘on the ground’. The fact is that this blog is written by someone who left Hungary a very long time ago and who has her personal slant on things (e.g. re Gyurcsány!) and is read mostly by people who also left a long time ago, or who live abroad, or by kulfoldi, like myself, living in, or visiting, Hungary. And the very few native Hungarians actually living here who contribute are presumably here because they agree with the view of Hungary presented.

    None of this is intended as criticism of Éva or her contributors, after all, I am one of them and hold views that are extremely anti-Orbán/Fidesz-Jobbik, even by the normal standards of this blog. But we need to step back from the intensity on here from time to time and check out what’s really happening to the majority of ordinary people in Hungary. The reality of life here, much like the reality of life anywhere, is very different. People rarely think about Gyurcsány, the judges, Nazis, or even the EU and the IMF, the vast majority of their time is spent worrying about the things ordinary people worry about everywhere.

    I’m afraid that when you’re actually ‘living with it in Hungary’ you begin to see why the constant irritated response to criticism from outside is that they just don’t understand because they don’t live here. This is not Fidesz-Jobbik propaganda, this is what it really feels like.

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  35. For us who are not familiar with this world Béla Varga’s appearance here might be educational. At least we know the shocking mindset of these people. However, I don’t think that it would be too wise to allow him to rant on this blog day in and day out. Therefore, his stay here will be brief.

    Thank you, Eva, for not letting him rant any longer. It’s good he posted, for everyone to see what’s wrong with kurucinfo (the site is full of the filth v.b. presented here). But I am glad you won’t let him take over the blog. The comment section of most Hungarian blogs is full of posts like b.v’s…. and when these type of posts take over, that’s the end of any intelligent discussion. Most people just stop reading and posting comments.

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  36. \”Therefore, his stay here will be brief\”

    Long enough to get some interesting information from his IP address which might be worth publishing?

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  37. Paul :

    “Most Hungarians are mildly racist and xenophobic, perhaps even more than mild, but this is entirely cultural – based on ignorance, not being essentially bad people. This is no excuse, and I fully realise that it’s exactly these people who have done nothing to stop the atrocities of the past, or even assisted in them, but it is entirely wrong to conflate those people with the likes of ‘bv’ and Jobbik.
    …….
    …..so I’m not pretending that this shift to the loony right isn’t happening or isn’t frightening, but the extreme aspects of it are still very much a minority involvement. Yes, it’s a vocal minority and it currently feels emboldened because of the atmosphere created by the idiot Orbán and his stop-at-nothing lust for power, but it’s still a very small minority”

    Fully agree, that is my impression as well.

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  38. Eva, Now that b.v. clearly demonstrated that the nazi values are still alive and well maybe it is time to revoke the privileges of posting on this blog from those who simply want to spread hate and filth. THere are many low-class, questionable quality Hungarian forums for that, like kurucinfo, so let them use that trash.

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  39. To Paul, I disagree with you on one very basic aspect of your comments that concerns my views on Hungary.

    The vast majority of the population currently is totally apathetic politically. In fact, if we think back to the first elections in 1990 the participation was even low then, especially considering that this was the first free elections in Hungary since 1946. The latest shocking news is that only 36% of the voting age population would vote if elections were held now.

    I agree with you that the Béla Varga and kuruc.info represent only a minority. But, as you yourself admitted, it is a very vocal minority. However, I don’t think that we can ignore them or belittle the danger they pose. Just think about it, in 48 hours almost 100,000 people visited kuruc.info after the call for identifying participants of the flashmob. A popular liberal site has perhaps 10,000 visitors a day! Think about it.

    As for my views. I don’t think that my not being on the spot makes my political views substantially different from those liberal circles in Hungary I am familiar with. We think exactly the same way. I wrote articles on Galamus and I just had a long interview with Népszava and I don’t think that the people who read those articles found huge differences in outlook between my views and the other contributors from Hungary. Admittedly we are in a minority: politically conscious people of firm democratic principles. I don’t know, I only guess, perhaps 20% of the population would belong to this group. But it doesn’t mean that they are not on the right track. On the contrary, I think these people are the hope of Hungary.

    As for the mildly racist Hungarians as a cultural phenomenon. We must change the culture. This might be a long haul but it must be done if Hungary wants to remain in the community of Euro-Atlantic nations.

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  40. Some1 :

    Eva, Now that b.v. clearly demonstrated that the nazi values are still alive and well maybe it is time to revoke the privileges of posting on this blog from those who simply want to spread hate and filth. THere are many low-class, questionable quality Hungarian forums for that, like kurucinfo, so let them use that trash.

    It’s done.

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  41. An :

    Paul :
    “Most Hungarians are mildly racist and xenophobic, perhaps even more than mild, but this is entirely cultural – based on ignorance, not being essentially bad people. This is no excuse, and I fully realise that it’s exactly these people who have done nothing to stop the atrocities of the past, or even assisted in them, but it is entirely wrong to conflate those people with the likes of ‘bv’ and Jobbik.
    …….
    …..so I’m not pretending that this shift to the loony right isn’t happening or isn’t frightening, but the extreme aspects of it are still very much a minority involvement. Yes, it’s a vocal minority and it currently feels emboldened because of the atmosphere created by the idiot Orbán and his stop-at-nothing lust for power, but it’s still a very small minority”

    Fully agree, that is my impression as well.

    Let’s be careful about this very small minority. It isn’t so small.

    What’s more, Hungary has a long history of anti-semitism dating back to before the first war. Let me add that the reason
    quite a few jews converted back in the 19th century was because
    they felt the anti-semitism and knew how it held them back socially and professionally.

    Anti-semitism is a very real problem and what aggravates the situation is that otherwise perfectly normal people will state
    categorically that no such thing exists today!

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  42. What I find interesting from you blog entry Eva is that I do not see the same “protect the old man” attitude towards the homeless man on the streets of Hungary. I have not read about the huge outcry by Jobbik or Fidesz supporters regarding the homeless people on the streets. I do not see them lining up to help. You only have to have a questionable nazi past it seems and all the “True Hungarians” suddenly are disturbed. I also find it staggering that although the Hungarian neo-nazis have a clear wish to get rid off gypsies, Jews, homosexuals, communists, leftists, if any of them actually done something in the effect to act on what they truly want, they all come out of the woodwork to defend the person saying that he does not want to harm anyone or did not harm anyone. They make it sound like that no neo-nazi would/could commit any crime against their “enemies”.

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  43. @petofi: Hope you realize you added the word “small”…. Paul does talk about a minority, and a vocal minority, but did not use the phrase “small minority”.

    I don’t want to speak for Paul, but the way I understood what he was writing, the way I see it, is that although antisemitism is quite common in Hungary in some shape or form, its extreme form exhibited by b.v. is only characteristic of a minority. So, in other words, b.v. is not the typical Hungarian, and not even the typical xenophobic/antisemitic Hungarian.

    Also, I don’t think that by pointing that out he was trying to belittle a problem. It is unfortunately quite obvious that these extremists are getting more vocal, have a substantial core base and a growing number of sympathizers. A very worrying trend.

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  44. An :
    @Petofi: I stand corrected, he did use the word “small”.

    I guess I quoted him without noticing that talking about a “very small minority” could suggest belittling the problem… but I don’t think he was meaning to. At least, that’s not how I understood it (obviously).

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  45. Paul: Very well put, couldn’t have said it better, I totally agree that this blog is way overrepresenting an otherwise very serious and real problem. The fact that Eva’s liberal friends on Galamus think the same way is not really a counterargument as they are – once again – a very selected group of people and not at all a representative sample. Their minds (also as publicists) might be preoccupied (if not obsessed) by Nazis, dictatorships, checks and balances, etc. but the ordinary folks who try to stay above the water with their business, get by on their salary till the end of the month probably spend no more than 3 minutes thinking about if a 97 year old dude should be prosecuted for something that happened 60 years ago. It’s not that they think he shouldn’t it’s just that they have a lot on their minds infinitely more relevant to their reality. I’m with you and An on this.

    Odin:
    “May be Treaty Trianon was not harsh enough. May be it should have abolished the whole blooming lot.”

    Charlie:
    “Trianon too”

    Hold your horses there guys, there are quite a few of us – otherwise ardent supporters of liberal democracy – and the values it embodies who find these sentences very offensive. If you want to turn into haters yourselves that’s fine by me, but than you’re no better then b.v. or Louis in my eyes. Btw Charlie, your nation’s wonderful performance at the peace treaties after WWI put this whole region into a setting in which most of the mayhem that followed was already encoded. And I’m not just talking about Hungary, Yugoslavia was an Entente invention together with some utopist panslavic dreamers, look how wonderfully that one turned out. So London, please call a little more humbly next time.

    Eva: Thanks for getting rid of b.v.! To be honest, I’m pretty surprised that we only get a few of these idiots from time to time and I’m afraid that there will be a time when this won’t be the case. Even though we don’t always see eye to eye, I’d hate to see this blog invaded by hundreds of kuruc troopers that you won’t be able to handle.

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  46. Jano :

    The fact that Eva’s liberal friends on Galamus think the same way is not really a counterargument as they are – once again – a very selected group of people and not at all a representative sample. Their minds (also as publicists) might be preoccupied (if not obsessed) by Nazis, dictatorships, checks and balances, etc. but the ordinary folks who try to stay above the water with their business, get by on their salary till the end of the month probably spend no more than 3 minutes thinking about if a 97 year old dude should be prosecuted for something that happened 60 years ago. It’s not that they think he shouldn’t it’s just that they have a lot on their minds infinitely more relevant to their reality. I’m with you and An on this.

    ……

    Eva: Thanks for getting rid of b.v.! To be honest, I’m pretty surprised that we only get a few of these idiots from time to time and I’m afraid that there will be a time when this won’t be the case. Even though we don’t always see eye to eye, I’d hate to see this blog invaded by hundreds of kuruc troopers that you won’t be able to handle.

    On the first topic. I know that the majority doesn’t care but someone must. Otherwise, the whole country will go to the dogs. And one more thing, the liberal democratic camp is not limited to “my friends on Galamus.” There are thousands and thousands of people who are committed to the cause I represent. DK voters make up 2% of the electorate. That is close to 200,000 people. And there are the people who will vote for MSZP. OK, they are quiet at the moment. They don’t stick their necks out as people who express their opinions in public. But it doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. Or that it is a small minority only.

    As for the second. Believe it or not, this is the first time that I had to resort to filtering someone out. Pretty remarkable.

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  47. Professor I will agree with you on the problem of the size of those who will vote. I think in the countryside the percentage of those who are entitled to vote and will do so is 20 to 25%. The rest would not dare to vote. They think that those with muscle will ‘stop’ them.

    All the people I know have the idea that politics is no longer any of their business or of their concern. All they want to do is to scrape a living, if, where and when they can.

    Jano I admit my remark about Trianon was due to my despair caused by the resurgence of these twerps, the people’s ignorance and lack of concerns about its resurgence.

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  48. Jano :
    <….Their minds (also as publicists) might be preoccupied (if not obsessed) by Nazis, dictatorships, checks and balances, etc. but the ordinary folks who try to stay above the water with their business, ….

    We are not on the same page on this one, Jano. Ordinary Hungarians really should pay a lot more attention to what’s going on in the country (checks and balances, a budding dictatorship, strengthening neo-Nazi movements). It does affect their every day life and their livelihood down the road, even if they don’t think it does. It’s a shame that you try to downplay the significance and the legitimacy of the issues “Eva and her liberal friends” are “preoccupied with”.

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  49. In general.
    Do you folks realize that when you make favorable statements regarding Trianon, or that the whole country should have been done away with, you become the best promoter for people turning to the right in Hungary?

    You all claim some connection to Hungary… sometimes the connection only comes through as hatred….not the kuruc crowd, but all.

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  50. It’s very sad that political activism is seen in the post-Trianon, maimed land of the goulash as a useless hobby of some busy bee liberal (ick!) intellects. The illuminated crowd even looks at it as some kind of anti-Hungarian activity especially when it comes to anti-semitism. We are the nation of the three wise monkeys.

    By the way the average Hungarian Joe doesn’t give a “flying fook” (© Johnny Boy 2012) about Trianon either.

    As far as I’m concerned I’d like to be in the noisy liberal minority that over-represents freedom and civil rights.

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  51. Louis Kovach :
    In general.
    Do you folks realize that when you make favorable statements regarding Trianon, or that the whole country should have been done away with, you become the best promoter for people turning to the right in Hungary?
    You all claim some connection to Hungary… sometimes the connection only comes through as hatred….not the kuruc crowd, but all.

    Louis Kovach,
    First of all, it was a comment by one individual, that he apologized for.
    Second, Others pointed out that they do not agree wit this comment.
    Third, Do YOU realize that your constant support for nazis and nazi sympathizers as an American is very shameful from someone who took the oath. You think you support Hungary, but what you really support is a selective group of Hungarians and not all.

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  52. Some!: “Third, Do YOU realize that your constant support for nazis and nazi sympathizers as an American is very shameful from someone who took the oath”
    please back up your accusation. Soecific citations please!

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  53. Some1: “First of all, it was a comment by one individual, that he apologized for.”

    In the last two months, I have read at least four times that Hungary deserved Trianon, that Trianon was not enough, and that even bringing up Trianon is undemocratic or that stating injustice is irredentism.

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  54. An :

    Jano :

    We are not on the same page on this one, Jano. Ordinary Hungarians really should pay a lot more attention to what’s going on in the country (checks and balances, a budding dictatorship, strengthening neo-Nazi movements). It does affect their every day life and their livelihood down the road, even if they don’t think it does. It’s a shame that you try to downplay the significance and the legitimacy of the issues “Eva and her liberal friends” are “preoccupied with”.

    An,
    I couldn’t agree more with you.

    I don’t expect the average Joes to be bothered by the news on the arrest of the 97 y.o. ; however, issues like Közgep, nationalising the private pension funds, building unnecessary stadiums in middle of no where, and lots of the economic policies which will have a direct effect in their future should not be taken lightly. Where are those passionate 2006 demonstrators?

    Just to take an example, the other day, we sat down with my SIL, and the topic of higher education for my youngest niece came up. My SIL’s response was pessimistic, there are no plans to send her to college/uni. as without the subsidies from govt. they simply cannot afford it. It is a pity as my niece is a diligent and bright student.
    Yet, my BIL is siding the govt. on my topics , that really baffles me…

    I only understand the extend of Trianon , when in 2009 I visited an exhibition on the topic. When the black and white visual of a hand grabbing the lands of G.Hu, , I have tears but I do not agree to dwell on it, and I doubt it is in the minds of average Joes, life moves on.

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  55. Louis Kovach :
    In general.
    Do you folks realize that when you make favorable statements regarding Trianon, or that the whole country should have been done away with, you become the best promoter for people turning to the right in Hungary?

    No, I don’t realize it.

    Pro primo. The average “hung arian” doesn’t care.
    Pro secundo. … I forgot.
    Pro tertio. I don’t think those were favorable statements. This Trianon mania is all about the “what ifs”. Hungary would have not became a nazi ally, would have not deported 400k Jews, we would be happy and the beer would be half price … yadi-yada. We all want cheap beer, right?

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  56. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: “First of all, it was a comment by one individual, that he apologized for.”
    In the last two months, I have read at least four times that Hungary deserved Trianon, that Trianon was not enough, and that even bringing up Trianon is undemocratic or that stating injustice is irredentism.

    Hungary at the time did deserve Trianon! Take your history books out and read as Hungary was on the loosing side with the Germans who have tried to “redistribute” the world. (By the way, my Jewish great grandfather died for Hungary fighting in the Hungarian army. Not the kind of the respect he would deserve today from you and your friends!) Hungary lost and was lucky that they did not divide the whole country and gave it away for the winners. I am sure that if they could read your posts, and the extreme-right thinking of a few in Hungary, they would have second thoughts (of not taking more).
    NOT the average Hungarians who deserved Trianon! THey did not deserve Trinanon, and they did not deserve to die in the frontline either. It is You and the kind of thinking you represent who deserved Trianon. THis is the message and this is the message that comes out of many liberals when listening to your b.s. It is you, your nationalistic crap that put Hungary on the chopping block on the first place, and you are guys the ones who make the whole world take notice again. SO, do not smear your dirt all over here, pretending not to understand what we are talking about. Hungarians do deserve a better future, a great land with great opportunity, but those who’s name you are talking about, the “True Hungarians” deserve no land, not even a morsel of that land that Jews, gypsies, serbs, slovaks, etc died for. Understand now?

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  57. Some 1, In relation to Trianon peace the cental powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria) imposed peace treaty on Romania in 1918 was much more severe.
    This is forgotten by those propagandists of Greater Hungary.

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  58. An: “I wasn’t saying this is right, afterall I’m here and I care, and I’d naturally like more people to care, I’m just saying that they don’t see it as the most important issue in their life. If you fall into the Danube, you might notice that it’s extremely disgusting even containing toxic waste sometimes, but your first yell will be about being saved and pulled out of the water instead of cursing about the sorry state of water cleaning facilities.

    Mutt is right too, believe it or not, they don’t give a “flying fook” about Trianon in their everyday life either.

    But whoever wrote that they don’t care about e.g. Közgép either is blatantly wrong, that infuriates everybody whose not a Fidesz zombi. The only reason their popularity isn’t licking the frog’s ass from below is that DK+MSZP are even less credible. Anyway, what I meant was what Paul wrote probably much better put than me.

    Btw, Eva, it’s pretty disappointing that you again identify the liberal democratic camp with first of all DK, and then you maybe let some MSZP slip into this definition. Most of the 2% you are mentioning for DK are Gyurcsány zombies who’d follow GYF even if he tried to argue that we should be sacrificing newborn babies to the ancient Aztec gods. That’s not much better than the OV zombiness for me. There are a lot of us who are committed to liberal democratic values, we just see DK as a big theater play of a once much better shaped opportunistic puppet master instead of a real liberal party.

    Odin: “Jano I admit my remark about Trianon was due to my despair caused by the resurgence of these twerps, the people’s ignorance and lack of concerns about its resurgence.” – Ok, I understand.

    Some1: I was already formulating my response to your last post when I read the second part, thank you for clarifying that. I agree with most of it this way, although it’s a disappointing historical ignorance from your part to look at WWI the same way as at WWII with the evil Germans and their allies vs. the armies of heaven on the other side. Every great power involved wanted that war, especially the French whose public state of affairs were pretty similar to interwar Hungary in terms of getting territorial revenge for 1871. There were no good or bad parties there, just a winner and a looser. And the winner was so full of bloodlust and greed that the peace treaties greatly lacked reason and morality and wisdom so that they pretty much set the stage for WWII. I’m sorry to say that but In that historical situation Hungary’s natural place was in the German alliance, economically and culturally both.

    Lastly, I might just add that the ones who really didn’t deserve Trianon are the Hungarian minorities that found themselves under the Czechoslovakian and Romanian abusation. (Btw if Hungary deserved Trianon back then, I’m pretty sure that the Caucescu Romania would have deserved a similar fate)

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  59. Some1: I asked for specific examples from you when I protected nazis or exnazis. You could not come up with a single instance.
    You reiterated the blog participants diatribe about Trianon.
    I bet you have very little additional information then was in Commis history about both the beginning and the consequences of WWI.

    I also have studied your methodology in my History of the Soviet Communist Party/, which was a compalsory subject. “Accuse those that you disagree with of fascism, capitalism etc., preferably in an aninomous manner. You must have been a very good student.

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  60. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: “First of all, it was a comment by one individual, that he apologized for.”
    In the last two months, I have read at least four times that Hungary deserved Trianon, that Trianon was not enough, and that even bringing up Trianon is undemocratic or that stating injustice is irredentism.

    Re: Trianon. This is simply top-down ideological necrophilia coming from Budapest. Talk to, for example, some Transylvanian Hungarians (for that is how they very often categorise themselves, as opposed to ‘Hungarians’) and you’ll notice that they have just as much disdain for Hungarian politicians with their Trianon agenda as they have for Romanian politicians who would seek to push forward exclusively Romanian nationalist policies.

    I can think of at least a dozen, academic, sociological studies, off the top of my head, which would give you plenty of insight into the attitudes of Transylvanian Hungarians. But I shan’t clutter up this board with links. You can find them, should you ever wish to broaden your perspectives.

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  61. Karl P. “In relation to Trianon peace the cental powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria) imposed peace treaty on Romania in 1918 was much more severe.”
    Of course, you forgot to mention that it was Rumania who attacked Hungary and not vice versa! Additionally the “horrible” Bucuresti Peace terms included the movement of the border from the top of the Carpatahian to the foot of Carpathians. How, terrible! Compare that with Erdely and the Partium going to Rumania.

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  62. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: I asked for specific examples from you when I protected nazis or exnazis. You could not come up with a single instance.
    You reiterated the blog participants diatribe about Trianon.
    I bet you have very little additional information then was in Commis history about both the beginning and the consequences of WWI.
    I also have studied your methodology in my History of the Soviet Communist Party/, which was a compalsory subject. “Accuse those that you disagree with of fascism, capitalism etc., preferably in an aninomous manner. You must have been a very good student.

    I have no idea whatsoever what re you referring to with I also have studied your methodology in my History of the Soviet Communist Party/, which was a compalsory subject. I never had to study the history of the Soviet Communist Party. Did you? woo You are busted.
    But I took a look sometimes on kurucinfo and on similar sites. I have news for you, On every site what you find is that they try to prove that they are not sympathizers with nazi ideology or with the elimination of Jews, gypsies, etc, and two pages later they call for war on the Jews and gypsies.
    I do not have to bring samples up from your nazi protecting portfolio either. People can read about your comments on Horthy, Csatary/Bodoki, and so forth. You sympathize and try to absolve the crimes of the nazis by bringing up other crimes, like that would make it right. You are undermining the readers of this blog. THey are perfectly capable to see you for what you are.

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  63. some1: Well my friend, it was a compulsory subject in all Hungarian Universities prior to 1956.
    It looks like you spend too much time on kurucinfo and similar sites, perhaps you find them educational :-) Obviously I have a different opinion of Horthy then you do, I did not defend or accuse Csatary, I leave that up to the courts. Then you again jump to baseless accusation of me symphatizing and defending Csatary/Bodoki. I do not have much use for either of them, Bodoki was let go even from the Index for questionable ethics.You give far too much credit if you think that I am undermining the readers this Gitt club.

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  64. @Someone: I just had to smile at your sentence:”You are undermining the readers of this blog. ”

    Of course Louis is not undermining us – and I know what you meant to say:

    He’s underestimating us … – and that’s 100 % true. He’s not just a Nazi, but a very stupid Nazi …

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  65. ” it was a compulsory subject in all Hungarian Universities prior to 1956.”

    Louis, you may think we’re old here – but not that old …

    You’re really funny in a way.

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  66. Louis Kovach can be under the influence of some past pain.
    Can he confess us the source of his rage?
    The perpetrators should be investigated and punished.
    LK can one day, stop to blame the innocent ones.
    We could come to an understanding with him, if he/she becomes reasonable.

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  67. enuff: “I only understand the extend of Trianon , when in 2009 I visited an exhibition on the topic. When the black and white visual of a hand grabbing the lands of G.Hu, , I have tears but I do not agree to dwell on it, and I doubt it is in the minds of average Joes, life moves on.”

    This would probably true if those in power would not constantly remind the average Joe how unhappy he is supposed to be.

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  68. Reading the comment of Odin and Charlie about Trianon, I had to laugh. Believe it or not, it is nearly impossible (given the obsession of some Hungarians with Trianon and how undeserved it was because the nation as such was apparently much more modern than what foreign observers have seen) not to think about whether it was deserved or not, in particular when confronted with ultra-modern ideas as presented by b.v. In such moments, I also notice with some relief that a specific type of Hungary was reduced to a small nation. (For clarity, I am also very grateful that a specific type of “German thinking” is largely a taboo in the German public debate, even if it does pop up from time to time, and not only in such blatant cases as in the latest scandal with the intelligence service in Thuringia.)

    There is also a link between this relief and Paul’s observation that life in Hungary seems pretty much unaffected by this – even if you do come across that in newspapers such as Magyar Nemzet or the public TV. It is troubling that people who are individually kind and educated are collectively helpless – even if this is the claimed large majority! – when the public sphere and the public debate is taken over by kuruc-type ideas openly tolerated by the party that got a 75 % majority of seats in parliament! Where the majority of people is passive, even if many people perhaps hate the current situation – but without much constructive effort to change anything. Except for those who are “obsessed” with politics such as Eva etc., journalists who have not yet given up, people prefer to remain passive, perhaps not taking over the views of Jobbik, perhaps yes, but it is not really of major importance because the direction of Hungary is determined by Fidesz and Jobbik. It is natural for democracies to think also in terms of allies, nations that share your commitment to democracy and individual rights (something that Hungary has commited oneself to in the EU accession treaty), and then it makes you think about what kind of ally Hungary might be.

    People who have been educated abroad such as Jano and who claim to be in favour of liberal values, individual rights and democracy, still doubt that for a democratic political system to function, at least a part of the society needs to be permanently “obsessed” with maintaining that system, while the broad majority should support that, even if passively through voting for the “correct” parties (and of course, such parties must exist in the first place, with the obvious precondition that some people must be able and willing to be engaged in these parties). I repeat it frequently, as long as people with Jobbik views are still closer to some Hungarians’ hearts than ideas shared by democrats across national borders because the most sacred rule is that Hungarians must never threaten the survival of the nation defined in 19th century terms and must stick together, the main problem will not be solved. Passive tolerance of the take-over of the public sphere by Jobbik means that their ideas contain at least some ideas that are widely shared – by the way an observation that Paul’s comment actually started with…

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  69. Louis Kovach :
    some1: Well my friend, it was a compulsory subject in all Hungarian Universities prior to 1956.
    It looks like you spend too much time on kurucinfo and similar sites, perhaps you find them educational Obviously I have a different opinion of Horthy then you do, I did not defend or accuse Csatary, I leave that up to the courts. Then you again jump to baseless accusation of me symphatizing and defending Csatary/Bodoki. I do not have much use for either of them, Bodoki was let go even from the Index for questionable ethics.You give far too much credit if you think that I am undermining the readers this Gitt club.

    Honestly, I feel sorry for you. You spent to much time with Soviet Commui

    Louis Kovach :
    When they get mad, they have difficulty composing.
    wolfi, wolfi…you are already undermined and fell into it….

    You have no clue about what happens when I get mad Louis. I am not mad at you. I am not mad ever at my friend’s autistic child either. She is sweetheart, even though she keeps repeating the same questions, and keeps telling the same thing even when it does not make sense. She is brilliant in many other ways, you would not believe it. WHat is your excuse?

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  70. wolfi :
    @Someone: I just had to smile at your sentence:”You are undermining the readers of this blog. ”
    Of course Louis is not undermining us – and I know what you meant to say:
    He’s underestimating us … – and that’s 100 % true. He’s not just a Nazi, but a very stupid Nazi …

    bahaha Thanks for the correction. I was actually putting together something about an abandoned silver mine in Ontario. (There are plenty of it up North, and some small investors started buying them, as a promising investment. I do not know to much about mining or logging, but some great properties are up for grab for those who are willing to do some research.) I guess my mind is crossing over. lol

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  71. Jano: “(Btw if Hungary deserved Trianon back then, I’m pretty sure that the Caucescu Romania would have deserved a similar fate)”

    The two have nothing to do with each other. Hungary got what it got because of its alliance with the losers (or even clearer: being part of the loser country – The Austro Hungarian empire) in a war. In the case of Ceausescu’s Romania the whole population (except for a small elite) suffered basically the same oppression. There was no reason to punish the whole country for it and Ceausescu was punished very quickly.

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  72. Kirsten :I repeat it frequently, as long as people with Jobbik views are still closer to some Hungarians’ hearts than ideas shared by democrats across national borders because the most sacred rule is that Hungarians must never threaten the survival of the nation defined in 19th century terms and must stick together, the main problem will not be solved. Passive tolerance of the take-over of the public sphere by Jobbik means that their ideas contain at least some ideas that are widely shared – by the way an observation that Paul’s comment actually started with…

    I think Kirsten that it also have to do with the economical situation of the last decades. Hungarians have this fuzzy feeling toward a Great Hungary. No Hungarian alive today lived actually under the Monarchy, still they feel that the period defines Hungary in its greatest state (the second best period was under St. Stephan). There is this nostalgia toward the Franz Joseph, big skirts, army uniforms and so forth OR toward the simple life form the book of Jokai. THe great Hungarians either lived the good life or fought for the country’s independence. Now, Hungarians feel cheated. they went through hundred years, two WW, a revolution, and other occupation and although they become independent, they did not become rich, and independence did not equal an entry card to the “circles of the elites”. Something is still missing and someone is still cheating them out of the good life. Maybe if Hungary becomes Great again, maybe if the Jews wouldn’t take the money and buy up the land, maybe if the gypsies, the homosexuals, the liberals…and so forth.

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  73. Louis Kovach :
    some1: Well my friend, it was a compulsory subject in all Hungarian Universities prior to 1956.
    It looks like you spend too much time on kurucinfo and similar sites, perhaps you find them educational Obviously I have a different opinion of Horthy then you do, I did not defend or accuse Csatary, I leave that up to the courts. Then you again jump to baseless accusation of me symphatizing and defending Csatary/Bodoki. I do not have much use for either of them, Bodoki was let go even from the Index for questionable ethics.You give far too much credit if you think that I am undermining the readers this Gitt club.

    I forget the first part of the quote that ends with “….is the last
    refuge of the scoundrel..” but even that last part fits you perfectly. You shameless turd: so, you have no opinion
    on Csatary, do you? That is an opinion! You hide in seeming
    objectivity because Csatary is not someone one can be ‘objective’ about. And you ‘leave it to the courts’ do you? You mean Hungarian courts? The very same one that let Kepiro go?
    Good for you! You’re the very soul of objectivity and decency!

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  74. An :
    @petofi: Hope you realize you added the word “small”…. Paul does talk about a minority, and a vocal minority, but did not use the phrase “small minority”.
    I don’t want to speak for Paul, but the way I understood what he was writing, the way I see it, is that although antisemitism is quite common in Hungary in some shape or form, its extreme form exhibited by b.v. is only characteristic of a minority. So, in other words, b.v. is not the typical Hungarian, and not even the typical xenophobic/antisemitic Hungarian.
    Also, I don’t think that by pointing that out he was trying to belittle a problem. It is unfortunately quite obvious that these extremists are getting more vocal, have a substantial core base and a growing number of sympathizers. A very worrying trend.

    Sorry about interjecting ‘small’–that is mis-characterizing and than critiquing the error. So, ‘minority’ it is.

    But I remember back a couple of years ago when we settled into our apartment our otherwise quite sane neighbour–who we had known for quite a few years before–was quick to come over and inform us that,
    a) ClubRadio was a shameless communist mouth-piece, and
    b) that there was no anti-semitism whatever in Hungary.

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  75. Louis Kovach :

    Some1: “First of all, it was a comment by one individual, that he apologized for.”

    In the last two months, I have read at least four times that Hungary deserved Trianon, that Trianon was not enough, and that even bringing up Trianon is undemocratic or that stating injustice is irredentism.

    Constantly talking about Trianon takes you nowhere. There will not be any changes of the borders of Hungary. The Hungarian governments between the two world wars tried it and they failed. Today the only “remedy” is the disappearance of the borders that has been almost accomplished. In case of a United States of Europe all Hungarians could live within the borders of this new country. That’s why I can’t understand why Orbán, the nationalist, relentlessly emphasizes the necessity to maintain the “nation states” and fights tooth and nail against closer integration. Hungary’s interest exactly the opposite of that “nationalist” goal. The road Orbán chose, despite all his talks to the contrary is unpatriotic.

    All that nationalist talk about Trianon is actually counterproductive. It raises suspicions in the neighboring countries as well as in the West. In addition it strengthens the Hungarian extreme right. Mind you, most of these people who cry for Greater Hungary have absolutely no knowledge about the demographics of it or anything else.

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  76. Jano :

    Btw, Eva, it’s pretty disappointing that you again identify the liberal democratic camp with first of all DK, and then you maybe let some MSZP slip into this definition. Most of the 2% you are mentioning for DK are Gyurcsány zombies who’d follow GYF even if he tried to argue that we should be sacrificing newborn babies to the ancient Aztec gods. That’s not much better than the OV zombiness for me. There are a lot of us who are committed to liberal democratic values, we just see DK as a big theater play of a once much better shaped opportunistic puppet master instead of a real liberal party.

    I mentioned DK because that is the party that deserves most the liberal label. I bet that most of the people who listen to Klubrádió or who watch ATV are the followers of Gyurcsány. And they are not zombies. I wouldn’t call Mátyás Eörsi, József Debreczeni, István Vágó, János Gálvölgyi, just to mention a few better known people, zombies. Klubrádió and ATV have about half a million followers. That is a sizable crowd especially if one considers that Klubrádió can be heard only in Budapest and Debrecen and ATV is only on cable. All these people might not say today that they would vote for DK but obviously they are of the same mindset as those who are clearly are committed and who tell the pollsters that they would definitely vote for DK.

    MSzP has a much more murky past in my opinion. Moreover, I appreciate that DK is the only party that is ready to cooperate with all democratic groups.

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  77. nyugalom-emberek :

    Louis Kovach can be under the influence of some past pain.
    Can he confess us the source of his rage?
    The perpetrators should be investigated and punished.
    LK can one day, stop to blame the innocent ones.
    We could come to an understanding with him, if he/she becomes reasonable.

    Heck, this pain business leaves me cold. I left Hungary after 1956 and I sure didn’t like Kádár and his bunch. I didn’t enjoy studying Marxism-Leninism. I wasn’t thrilled that my family lost practically everything they worked so hard before 1945 but that doesn’t mean that I have to be supporting people like these horrible upstarts who are on top of everything else are liars.

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  78. Dr Balogh: “Constantly talking about Trianon takes you nowhere.”

    I am not constantly talking about Trianon! It was your acolytes who keep bring it up as a deserved event. I object to making Trianon into something good for anybody in Hungary. And you are right that it puts the horse under the ultraright.

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  79. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: “WHat is your excuse?”

    Least you are acknowledge that there is something wrong with you. That is a good start. Now, just keep working on it, so you would be able to really catch up, as you are still very far behind.

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  80. Eva said “Just think about it, in 48 hours almost 100,000 people visited kuruc.info after the call for identifying participants of the flashmob. A popular liberal site has perhaps 10,000 visitors a day! Think about it.”

    Attack the problem……WAKE UP……find solutions to the problem! So far I have read many brilliant analysis BUT no one even tried to find a solution to the problem……one last hope: “Odin’s lost eye”….I can hardly wait for his solution driven problem solving!

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  81. Eva, thank you for writing this:

    “In case of a United States of Europe all Hungarians could live within the borders of this new country.”

    That’s exactly what I’ve been telling everybody for years!

    Even though we West-Germans didn’t have too much trouble travelling in Europe 30 or 40 years ago – it was just inconvenient to wait at the borders and show your passports every few hundred kilometers and sometimes those bullies aka border policemen were real a**holes … And trying to find the best way to exchange your Deutsche Mark and what to do with the rest of those strange foreign bills …

    In spite of all the economic difficulties and political tantrums some people are throwing I’m still hoping that we continue as fast as possible on this way to the USE!

    OT:

    I still remember those guys at the last gas station in Yugoslavia before the Austrian border. Everybody filled up their tanks and payed with marks or Schillings or Lire – the change consisted of packets of cigarettes and sweets … These guys must have become millionaires almost.

    Similarly here in Héviz – one of the first private restaurants (and one of the best!) was opened by a taxi driver …

    Actually he told me once that this had been his dream all the time – but only by driving a taxi and doing some nlack market business on the side could he hope to make it come true.

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  82. London Calling!

    I have waited so as to refrain from a knee-jerk reaction of rage – and this is the best I can do.

    Jano:

    The English don’t need any sarcastic lectures – or words weasel from you:

    “….your nation’s wonderful performance at the peace treaties after WWI put this whole region into a setting in which most of the mayhem that followed was already encoded”

    – your sarcastic weasel words show a cowardly unwillingness to tell it like it is.

    There is no hatred from England either – even if we were reduced to penury in fighting the war that you visited upon us. Do you realise that England only finished paying off the
    American loans for your hostilities in 2006?

    And Hitler’s Messerschmidts (Hungarian built) ruined a lot of our buildings too – you are lucky that Budapest only suffered from Hitler’s revenge.

    And Trianon was revenge too. What would Hitler have done if you had won?

    My “Trianon too” jibe was directed at the hatred of b.v.

    (And how can the Kovach’s and b.v.’s of this world live in the US? – such hypocrisy. Vicariously – if not directly – Trianon II (My term for the confiscation of Horthy’s ill-gotten gains courtesy of Hitler) was begat by the Allies – yes it was revenge. You have to accept – eventually – that history is written by the victors. I’ve already explained why Trianon was right – and will never be rescinded whatever irredentist tricks Orban pulls. You lost any sympathy for a re-alignment with Horthy’s dirty pact with the devil. Hungary’s rehabilitation of Horthy today sets it in deeper concrete – as do all the other nazi rehabilitations – your philosophical thugs with clever words and poetry are more insidious than the overt Jobbik thugs.)

    Still hurting because of Trianon? Suck it up.

    Stop looking back – you need to sort out a leader that can cope with your economic ills – not the Matolcsy clown and his cohorts.

    You need to create an equal, humanitarian society that can accommodate your minorities: – The Roma. the Jews that still remain, the homosexuals, the poor and dispossessed.

    How can a so-called Christian ‘love-thy-neighbour’ country treat its minorities so badly?

    You know it’s wrong – as does Orban and his motley crew. (I am not religious so must leave the bible to the Petofi’s here – but the hypocrisy is stark)

    And why can I go into a hardware shop (last week) and the owner ask via my partner how I am coping with the Hungarian language? (I’m not). And then start a diatribe to a complete stranger about the problem of the Jews ‘controlling education’ in Hungary?

    Completely out of the blue.

    Eva’s right: “As for the mildly racist Hungarians as a cultural phenomenon. We must change the culture. “

    Yes. You must. And I would add ‘Anti-Semitic’ too.

    So don’t just talk about a liberal democracy – sort it.

    And another thing:

    So many contributors on here have said that the Hungarians are just battening down the hatches to weather the storm – too busy surviving. Yes they are – this is what I was seeing just a few days ago – from the Tesco manager upping sticks to Munich because he couldn’t survive on even a Manger’s pay – to my Partner’s mother. And Hungarians dissing Hungarians and the lack of smiles.

    My partner’s mother’s pension is about 33,000 Fts per month (€114 or about USD138) – and she was until recently paying 9,000 Fts for a daily ‘meals-on-wheels’ service. This recently jumped to 15,000 Fts – and her pension stays the same. Then there are all the medical bills and the ludicrous treatment by the health service.

    How can the poor live like this? Yes that includes the Roma who have lost all those labouring jobs.

    How can such a callous Orban administration raise VAT to 27% on everything? How fair is this?

    (and the flat tax…and the transaction tax…and the telephone tax….and…and…and)

    You say the average Hungarian “.. spends no more than 3 minutes thinking about if a 97 year old dude should be prosecuted for something that happened 60 years ago.”

    Justice delayed is justice denied (Our William Gladstone said that.)

    Justice that never happened is a travesty (CharlieH said that).

    There is enough room for the struggle of living – as well as for justice to do the right thing – prosecute him – if only for the victim’s memories sake.

    My litany is already too long – but all I am saying is stop looking back – look forward and get rid of Orban.

    And stop the hatred – and anti-Semitism and unfairness in Hungary.

    There is no hatred from me, Jano – and more humility from London?

    Hungary needs humility by the bucket load.

    Regards

    Charlie

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  83. Louis Kovach :

    Dr Balogh: “Constantly talking about Trianon takes you nowhere.”

    I am not constantly talking about Trianon! It was your acolytes who keep bring it up as a deserved event. I object to making Trianon into something good for anybody in Hungary. And you are right that it puts the horse under the ultraright.

    You are not that important. I wasn’t talking about you. I’m talking about the Hungarian government.

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  84. @CharlieH:

    You said it succinctly. “Normal Hungarians” are trying really hard to survive – with a second or even a third job …

    I get asked more often about the chances for a job in Germany, Austria or Switzerland, but usually I have to disappoint people and steer them away from that idea … Only a few have a chance.

    Pensioners are really at the mercy of their family – if they can get some support, ok. If not, I wonder how they survive..

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  85. latefor :
    Eva said “Just think about it, in 48 hours almost 100,000 people visited kuruc.info after the call for identifying participants of the flashmob. A popular liberal site has perhaps 10,000 visitors a day! Think about it.”
    Attack the problem……WAKE UP……find solutions to the problem! So far I have read many brilliant analysis BUT no one even tried to find a solution to the problem……one last hope: “Odin’s lost eye”….I can hardly wait for his solution driven problem solving!

    None of us gets paid to “find a solution”. THat is what the government is getting paid for. We point out the problem, and bring it up, our nazi friends prove that the problem exist, the government denies it exist, and life goes on. Fortunately to bring attention to the problem is something that Eva can do, and she is doing a good job. THis is more than most well paid government official do. If you have some suggestions, you can put it down here, and lets hope that Orban does not play the “three monkeys” no more, and takes it to heart. (I assure you that even if Orban personally does not read the blog, there are some paid employees from the government who do. Hi paid employee out there!!)

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  86. Latefor. Do not hold your breath, Odin’s lost eye is too old. He is not ¼ of the of cove he was 40 years ago. Even then he was not 1/10th as good as his old dad.
    The present government promised ‘Good (Clean) Government so the people gave them the power they needed. Look what actually crawled out from under the flat stone. The people are now totally disillusioned and no longer care. They see their land being raped by the voracious hangers on. These folk are ‘shysters’, swindlers, thieves and the like.
    CharlieH How right you are, how right!. The German peoples made a bargain with Hitler. That worthy then had broke his promises leaving the people broken and disillusioned. Because of what the allied troops found the Germans were terrified of the allied troops. But the western troops were disciplined, very aloof and in the main just. The Germans came to see the how they had been swindled by their late leaders and their how their ex-enemies helped them in the West to rebuild their country.
    Since Trianon, if the Hungarians had put a quarter of the physical, mental and psychological effort into rebuilding their country and redirected its path they would have been well off. But no the Hungarians are still at it. For God’s sake Hungary is not and never really has been a ‘Great Nation’ and never will be until you get rid of the legacy of your past and its imagined glories. There is only one period when this land started to become great was during the time of Deak. Horthy was at best a ‘poor tool’
    The problem of outfits like kuruc.info is finance. Kill that and Kuruk is dead. But kuruc is a small part of a loose association of ‘scroats’ with similar sort of ideas. These range from the aggressive Religo-Nationalistic nations to those so called ‘patriot’ (one or two are on trial in the Hague for their ‘antics’). The watchers of these nurks (FBI, MI5, Shin Bet and Co) are concentrating on the ‘Big’ players in this mess so the ‘little fishes’ escape scot free.
    Until Hungary resets its attitudes, realises it does not know everything about everything, gets a good dose of humility and start to listen it will go on suffering.

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  87. Some1 :
    None of us gets paid to “find a solution”.

    Maybe we don’t get paid to find a solution but that doesn’t means that we don’t have civic responsibilities. In this case we can do something that might only be a bandaid solution but… kuruc.info web pages come from kuruc.org. That URL points to DomainsByProxy.com. DomainsByProxy.com has a policy that if they enforce would cause them to remove kuruc.org. This proxy service looks like it’s run by http://www.godaddy.com. Any takers on the bet that DomainsByProxy guys can’t read Hungarian and may need a little help with translation?

    Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, LLC (R91-LROR)
    Registrant Organization:Domains By Proxy, LLC
    Registrant Street1:DomainsByProxy.com
    Registrant Street2:14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
    Registrant City:Scottsdale
    Registrant State/Province:Arizona
    Registrant Postal Code:85260
    Registrant Country:US
    Registrant Phone:+1.4806242599
    Registrant Phone Ext.:
    Registrant FAX:+1.4806242598
    Registrant FAX Ext.:
    Registrant Email:KURUC.ORG@domainsbyproxy.com

    Resetting the DNS takes minutes but it takes about 24 hours for that change to propagate over the internet. Even before they could reset the DNS they’d have to find another proxy service or expose where their server is sitting.

    If you are against the type of filth that kuruc is spewing, send a complaint. I have.

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  88. LwiiH :

    Some1 :
    None of us gets paid to “find a solution”.

    Maybe we don’t get paid to find a solution but that doesn’t means that we don’t have civic responsibilities.

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am talking about the general attitude of the Hungarian government toward the behavior that for example kuricinfo portrays. Yes, you can fight to remove one site, but that is just a band aid solutions. It is the government responsibility to attack the root of the problem, and to take on leadership to inform and educate people, so sites like kurucinfo will not be cool. You cannot do that by removing a single server, and by Eva informing others through her blog does way more to this cause then some action that will cause a five minutes outage for the site.
    I appreciate what you are doing,and I hope you keep doing it, but I think the reals solution is in the government’s hands and in pressuring the government to act.

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  89. CharlieH: “(And how can the Kovach’s and b.v.’s of this world live in the US? – such hypocrisy.”

    What amazes me is that Kovach who has been living in this country for over fifty years has learned so little about democracy and adherence to the constitution that he can keep cheering a government in Hungary that is busily working on reintroducing an authoritarian state while nationalizing everything under the sun. I simply can’t understand it. It seems that “nothing stuck to them” as the Hungarian saying goes. “Nem ragadt rájuk semmi!”

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  90. Dr Balogh: “What amazes me is that Kovach who has been living in this country for over fifty years has learned so little about democracy and adherence to the constitution”

    If I could play the difference between your behavior and that based on the Constitution (at least the US one) I could be a virtuoso. Most of your writings are full of unsubstantiated innuendos and contain many mistakes that you very rarely coreect. You present your ideas as facts and then derive them into percieved philosophy . You copy out anything that is written by Nepszabadsag or Galamus or other leftist sites without checking their correctness. You have claimed Varga still as a winemaker, based on one single website’s undated description.You publish wrong photographs for peaple. You are “in love” with Gyurcsany, even though he singlehandedly destroyed the MSzP. You denigrate everybody who disagrees with you and call them “Jobbik” lackeys or fascists.
    One thing you sure have learned in your education and that is tremendous conceit.In that you are far above the average,

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  91. Eva S. Balogh :
    CharlieH: “(And how can the Kovach’s and b.v.’s of this world live in the US? – such hypocrisy.”
    What amazes me is that Kovach who has been living in this country for over fifty years has learned so little about democracy and adherence to the constitution that he can keep cheering a government in Hungary that is busily working on reintroducing an authoritarian state while nationalizing everything under the sun. I simply can’t understand it. It seems that “nothing stuck to them” as the Hungarian saying goes. “Nem ragadt rájuk semmi!”

    Oh, Kovach doesn’t need to learn. He knows everything :-)

    And he is such a modest man. If he weren’t so modest, he’d be perfect.

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  92. Louis Kovach :
    Most of your writings are full of unsubstantiated innuendos and contain many mistakes that you very rarely coreect.

    Kovach, I can’t find the words. Your comment is such a shining example of the Hungarian right wing idiocy. Basically you have called the blog writer and the readership clueless morons.

    Just for the fun of it. Can you please elaborate on the idea how professor Balogh’s “behavior” contradicts to the US constitution? Please play it Louis Brainstrong!

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  93. Kirsten: “People who have been educated abroad such as Jano and who claim to be in favour of liberal values, individual rights and democracy, still doubt that for a democratic political system to function, at least a part of the society needs to be permanently “obsessed” with maintaining that system”

    Sorry if I gave you this impression, I think that there are people (like journalists, activists, politicians) should indeed be obsessed about these kind of thing, what I was arguing was that this can’t be expected from the everyday folks to the same extent. I also don’t understand why you write “claim to be”. Are you doubting it?

    Eva: ““In case of a United States of Europe all Hungarians could live within the borders of this new country.”

    Exactly my thinking. I think Hungary should indeed be pro the USE and instead of full political or economical, it should fight for cultural sovereignity within the framework of this larger country.

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  94. Charlie: “your sarcastic weasel words show a cowardly unwillingness to tell it like it is” – So weasel words for my alleged weasel words, nice. Sarcasm is an allowed tool in a debate, even though it hurts when it is turned against you, I suggest you grow a thicker skin.

    I don’t know how you managed to mix Hitler into what I wrote about as what I was writing about is that because the victors vengeful attitude and utter desire to humiliate not just the elites that started the war, but the people of the loosing side itself, instead of creating at least a chance for a lasting peace your government (together with the French one) paved the path of the beginning of the road that threw this continent into it’s darkest era. Of course, it was those countries not yours that actually went down that road (with the cowardly British and the collapsing French government standing by until it was too late to prevent WWII). Oh and btw, I’m sure you’ve heard of which country’s concentration camps in South Africa inspired the ones perfected by German proficiency later. That’s where some humbleness could be useful.

    And yes, I accept the fact that history is written by the victors, but morality is not. What you’re arguing translates to an equivalent statement of “Had Hitler won WWII, he would have earned the right to exterminate the jews, nazis just suck it up that he didn’t”. One of the most important underlying principle of our modern society is based on is that just because you’re stronger you can’t do whatever the hell you want. Sorry for ruining your national myths but you are not superior and about your cheesy sentiment about the burning houses, well we didn’t just get Hitler’s revenge but also some nice carpetbombings from the RAF not to mention the plundering red army raping it’s way through Budapest and staying here for 50 years. A generation of youth were sent to die by Horthy’s elite to the Don. And there you stand laughing “you guys asked for this this, motherf…rs, yeah we’re so kickass!” – jesus… Yes, it was war and wartime is like that (which I guess you realize with cold blood since you preach so much about accepting), but I violently object to your primitive collective guilt&punishment approach.

    With all that said, I’m of course very glad the allies won WWII, I have nothing against the UK, and it was right to use whatever force in a full scale war back then. When I said London, I meant specifically you for that statement. I realize you might have been just infuriated by b.v. (so was I, and if only he was the only one like that we’re ever gonna come across), but sometimes you should use your famous English elegance and think twice before you dial otherwise you’re going to hit a lot more than just your target. And sorry, but you pretty much sounded like a hater. I realize that the above might be a little harsh too but as your post reflected how much you could avoid a knee-jerk response (admittedly), so is the case with mine.

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  95. Jano :

    Eva: ““In case of a United States of Europe all Hungarians could live within the borders of this new country.”

    Exactly my thinking. I think Hungary should indeed be pro the USE and instead of full political or economical, it should fight for cultural sovereignity within the framework of this larger country.

    Fantastic! We agree. But Orbán does exactly the opposite. Simply don’t understand.

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  96. Jano :
    Sorry if I gave you this impression, I think that there are people (like journalists, activists, politicians) should indeed be obsessed about these kind of thing, what I was arguing was that this can’t be expected from the everyday folks to the same extent.

    This is wrong. Very wrong. This is the culture Eva is talking about that has to be changed.

    This passivity is also coupled with the total luck of interest in any information that could help them to decide.

    I don’t buy the “swamped with everyday problems” idea either. Instead of going to the Balaton, go to the parliament and picket (for the right cause of course). Organize town hall meetings. Volunteer for phone fundraisers. Run around with fliers. Beat the drums.

    Here as story from our life here. It’s just an example, it will not change the world. The landlord (aka. evil, money hungry capitalist) wanted to kick out our favorite car repair shop. We, 300 of us, signed a petition and sent it everywhere. 2 days ago I received a personally signed letter from our congressman (really!) that he is helping every way he could. He also warned that the landlord is a private business, so they do whatever they want, but that’s not relevant. See what’s saying?

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  97. Eva S. Balogh :

    Jano :
    Eva: ““In case of a United States of Europe all Hungarians could live within the borders of this new country.”
    Exactly my thinking. I think Hungary should indeed be pro the USE and instead of full political or economical, it should fight for cultural sovereignity within the framework of this larger country.

    Fantastic! We agree. But Orbán does exactly the opposite. Simply don’t understand.

    Orban does the opposite because that’s what serves his own purposes, to have uncontrolled power in Hungary (the last thing he wants is “more EU”; he has trouble with “stupid” EU laws and norms already). The Hungarian minorities are just a good excuse to steer up nationalistic sentiments.

    The key to understand Orban is to understand that whatever loft goal he claims to work on, that’s always a facade. The only goal is to hold on to and extend his power and be accountable no one.

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  98. Jano, slow down … don’t be so Hungarian.

    I think until we win an actual war we should not judge countries that have a long tradition of winning wars.

    Please God! Can we win a war? Just a little war … pretty please! How about getting back that few square feet from Slovakia at Gabchikovo? We promise not kill anyone. We badly need to win a war. Our self confidence is in free fall.

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  99. On the other one your example is also very good to illustrate why the same doesn’t work in Hungary. People would sign a petition they would go on the street aaaaannnnddd nothing would happen. Maybe an MP would travel there making sure to bring a fair amount of media with himself, give some aggressive speech and then leave. Happened so many times before. What you are looking for in the people is actually there but it won’t come out until individuals would feel that they can actually make a difference. (You know, “they will demonstrate for a while then they will go home” – GYF) I know it’s a vicious cycle that someday will hopefully be broken. Up until then, survival is the first instinct. And I’m not saying it’s right (I really want to stress this), but I do say that I don’t blame them for this as much as e.g. you do.

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  100. Jano: “One of the most important underlying principle of our modern society is based on is that just because you’re stronger you can’t do whatever the hell you want.”

    ONLY if those people who work in the relevant places (institutions – and these have to exist) make sure that this is indeed the case. It is NOT trivial to establish such a system if society has worked for a long time on the opposite principle (and people instinctively understand the “winner-takes-all” attitude whereas it appears more difficult to understand the equal rights of other people).
    Your example of the vicious circle is comprehensible and still there will be some explanation why this appears so futile. Mutt wrote some time ago that for money, many people will be willing to do the dirty job, fill the places of people who were sacked out of political and other reasons and so forth. Why is that? The future of the political nation should be equally or nearly equally important as economic well-being. Perhaps the Americans or British on this blog could confirm that but I expect that in their list of values “liberty” “freedom” “my rights” will be nearly equally if not more important than economic issues defined over welfare. I come from this Central European region, too, so I know all this reasoning, but as Charlie wrote, a better functioning democratic system will not obtain through speaking about these values but actively searching for how they can become reality.

    Ad Kovach: I am fascinated by the suggestion that “Louis Kovach” might have lived in the US now already for 50 years. So he should be of the age of Odin? (Odin, I deeply apologise for that but you will see immediately why I wrote it.) Please compare the style of their English! I can’t help it, for me “Louis Kovach” is 25 and paid by Fidesz.

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  101. Some1 :

    LwiiH :

    Some1 :
    None of us gets paid to “find a solution”.

    Maybe we don’t get paid to find a solution but that doesn’t means that we don’t have civic responsibilities.

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

    I not only understand what you are saying, I do agree with it. If the site promotes hate speech and it is indeed hosted in the US there is something that can be done to make the bandaid stick longer. If you wait (for any government) to apply it you might be waiting a long time. And that is where civic responsibilities start… and yes, there is a lacking of civic responsibility in Hungary and instead of indoctrinating religion maybe they could/should work on that.. and that would go a long way to getting rid of this hideous site

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  102. @LwiiH Domains by proxy only hides the name of the person or entity who registered the domain. I use it too. All they know is that it was registered by very likely, the devil himself, Bela Varga. You still won’t know who is hosting the site.

    CloudFlare is somehow the same. They know where the kuruc.info is hosted but they won’t tell you. I showed them the blood money pages, explained it, and they still told me it’s “Bad taste. It’s OK.”.

    There are more technical magic that can be applied to further obfuscate the info about the location of the sites. I’m afraid that this is a dead end. Even if we find out they will move quickly to another. The only solution is rounding up the people who create the content. That will disable it for a while until they move the editors abroad.

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  103. “some1” -None of us gets paid to “find a solution”. THat is what the government is getting paid for. We point out the problem, and bring it up, our nazi friends prove that the problem exist, the government denies it exist, and life goes on. Fortunately to bring attention to the problem is something that Eva can do, and she is doing a good job. THis is more than most well paid government official do. If you have some suggestions, you can put it down here, and lets hope that Orban does not play the “three monkeys” no more, and takes it to heart. (I assure you that even if Orban personally does not read the blog, there are some paid employees from the government who do. Hi paid employee out there!!)

    Some1 – Frankly, my social conscience is clear. I had come up with a brilliant (if I may say so) idea re: fundraising at the time of the Read Mud Disaster( the next day on this blog)…..and yes, you are right, someone else must have got paid for my brain storming!

    As far as kurucinfo is concerned, I do not believe that shouting down the site is the solution but proving them wrong would be a more viable option. There are so many talented journalists out there, surely they could win over and convince a 100.000 per hour readers (re: Eva) of Kurucinfo?

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  104. latefor :
    “some1″ -None of us gets paid to “find a solution”. THat is what the government is getting paid for. We point out the problem, and bring it up, our nazi friends prove that the problem exist, the government denies it exist, and life goes on. Fortunately to bring attention to the problem is something that Eva can do, and she is doing a good job. THis is more than most well paid government official do.

    Some1 – Frankly, my social conscience is clear. I had come up with a brilliant (if I may say so) idea re: fundraising at the time of the Read Mud Disaster( the next day on this blog)…..and yes, you are right, someone else must have got paid for my brain storming!
    As far as kurucinfo is concerned, I do not believe that shouting down the site is the solution but proving them wrong would be a more viable option. There are so many talented journalists out there, surely they could win over and convince a 100.000 per hour readers (re: Eva) of Kurucinfo?

    latefor, My reply was specific answer for a specific comment. PLease, do not take it out of context. Not every situation requires only the government to act. Orban supposedly cannot do anything with the kuricinfo as he suggested to the Amrican government because the server is not in HUngary. A reader suggested that us (readers) try to stop the server to host kuricinfo. My take on it was that even if we would be succesfull in shutting done one server option kurucinfo would switch over to an other host in a matter of hours. The solution should come from the Hungarian government by the locating those who are responsible for publishing such material on the fisrt place. THey (and the police) gets paid for that, and it is very little then we readers can do other what Eva and we already are doing.

    I am not sure how the Red Mud made it here, and I do not mean to be rude, but I do not belive anyone stole your idea for fundraising for the victims. THe Red Cross, and other organizations usually swing into action (thank goodness) in a matter of minutes, they just do not publish that “Hey we just had an idea. Why don’t we start collect money and other items for the victims?” Usually are at ground zero at matter of hours, they help right away, then start to publish about other efforts. I am a regular donor of Red Cross, Oxfam, and other organizations, so I hope my money made it ther sooner before anyone suggested to fundraise for that specific disaster. My only “specific” donaion ever was to help the victims of Dec 26th Tsunami.

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  105. Kovach: “You denigrate everybody who disagrees with you and call them “Jobbik” lackeys or fascists.”
    I would like to see just one example for that assertion

    Dr Balogh, time to take memory enhancing pills. See your July 4 posting # 22 :Louis Kovach :
    No, I am NOT a FIDESZ supporter!
    Perhaps Jobbik?</blockquote

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  106. Louis Kovach :

    Kovach: “You denigrate everybody who disagrees with you and call them “Jobbik” lackeys or fascists.”
    I would like to see just one example for that assertion

    Dr Balogh, time to take memory enhancing pills. See your July 4 posting # 22 :Louis Kovach :
    No, I am NOT a FIDESZ supporter!
    Perhaps Jobbik?</blockquote

    I’m afraid you can’t even read. Am I calling your here a Jobbik lackey or fascist? This is an interrogative not an affirmative sentence. I’m simply asking.

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  107. Kovach, you are pathetic. By reading your posts everybody here is 120% convinced that you ARE a FIDESZ true believer and your sneaky, anti-semitism also suggests strong JOBBIK sympathy. You can deny it but based on what you write, you are a very close match buddy.

    But many times your comments simply don’t make sense. The main guiding principle seems to be some kind of agenda against professor Balogh. If she would write about the sunny weather you would google up something about thunderstorms that also happened in Israel. You are what you write – don’t kid yourself.

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  108. Some 1 – I believe that I have made myself abundantly clear re: Red Mud Disaster. I have answered your suggestion why I do not want to get involved into problem solving brain storming, and I find your comments rude and dismissive.
    Just for the record: My suggestion was for a “specific disaster”, to reach as many people as possible at a shortest possible time. My idea was (on this blog) that every online newspaper should display (at the top right hand corner)he major fund-raisers: banks, Red Cross, Churches and the Priests etc. direct account numbers, addresses etc. to give readers (outside Hungary) the choice to donate directly to a “specific disaster”……and this is EXACTLY what they did…..and IT WORKED!

    Re: kurucinfo
    By jailing those who are responsible for the articles would not solve the problem, only proving them wrong would…..and the sooner the better!

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  109. latefor: “By jailing those who are responsible for the articles would not solve the problem, only proving them wrong would…..and the sooner the better!”

    How do you propose doing that?

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  110. gdfxx – “How do you propose doing that?”
    There is a saying: “Once burnt twice shy”!
    Obviously, what you are doing solving the problem of anti-Semitism is NOT working. Time for a different approach.

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  111. latefor :
    gdfxx – “How do you propose doing that?”
    There is a saying: “Once burnt twice shy”!
    Obviously, what you are doing solving the problem of anti-Semitism is NOT working. Time for a different approach.

    So, what’s the answer to my question?

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  112. Louis Kovach :
    Dr Balogh: “I’m afraid you can’t even read. Am I calling your here a Jobbik lackey or fascist? ”
    I can read you very well Dr Balogh!

    This guy sounds like lieutenant Dub, although he is less funny…

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  113. gdfxx – “So, what’s the answer to my question?”

    “There is a saying: “Once burnt twice shy”!
    Obviously, what you are doing solving the problem of anti-Semitism is NOT working. Time for a different approach.” …….is the answer to your question.

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  114. latefor :
    Some 1 – I believe that I have made myself abundantly clear re: Red Mud Disaster. I have answered your suggestion why I do not want to get involved into problem solving brain storming, and I find your comments rude and dismissive.
    Just for the record: My suggestion was for a “specific disaster”, to reach as many people as possible at a shortest possible time. My idea was (on this blog) that every online newspaper should display (at the top right hand corner)he major fund-raisers: banks, Red Cross, Churches and the Priests etc. direct account numbers, addresses etc. to give readers (outside Hungary) the choice to donate directly to a “specific disaster”……and this is EXACTLY what they did…..and IT WORKED!
    Re: kurucinfo
    By jailing those who are responsible for the articles would not solve the problem, only proving them wrong would…..and the sooner the better!

    I am not sure wghat part was rude and dismissive. Honest. I am simply saying that it i Orban that can do something, and I do not agree with you or with others who believe that it is the average Joe who can solve this problem by reporting kuricinfo’s hate agenda to a particular server’s host as they would simply move on an other server. THe solution is with the governement.
    I am sorry to say that not everyone read Eva’s blog, so the links to donation sites did not start to appear because you posted this on Eva’s blog. I agree that some people may thought of it after reading your entry, but taking full credit for it is a ‘bit overdoing.
    I appreciate your passion and conviction to such cause as I feel the same about humanitarian issues. I did not mean to offend yoe, but I just do not agree. I am not sure how to coat my opinion that is differnt from yours so it would not offend you. I do 100% agree with your motivation and the sentiment, but I dnot agree with how you think moving about it. Sorry if that is offensive.

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  115. Louis Kovach :
    Dr Balogh: “I’m afraid you can’t even read. Am I calling your here a Jobbik lackey or fascist? ”
    I can read you very well Dr Balogh!

    Well as you said you are not a Fidesz supporter. You absolutely not MSZP or LMP supporter, as you support Horthy, and nazi writers, you speak up for criminals (except if they were communists). You have some murky nationalistic stance on true Hungarians, and you never really finished your answers regarding that subject.
    I am sorry but that lives us believe that you support the theories of Jobbik or something slightly less or worse. Maybe Eva asked you, but most of us do not need to ask that question no more.

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  116. latefor :
    gdfxx – “So, what’s the answer to my question?”
    “There is a saying: “Once burnt twice shy”!
    Obviously, what you are doing solving the problem of anti-Semitism is NOT working. Time for a different approach.” …….is the answer to your question.

    I don’t understand a single word of what you’re saying.
    Do you want to continue the chat with Bela Varga to see if you can convince him?

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  117. latefor :
    gdfxx – “So, what’s the answer to my question?”
    “There is a saying: “Once burnt twice shy”!
    Obviously, what you are doing solving the problem of anti-Semitism is NOT working. Time for a different approach.” …….is the answer to your question.

    Well, this is not an answer. If you have an idea of a different approach, describe it, please. That would be an answer.

    By the way, I doubt that the problem of antisemitism can be solved by any blog. It requires education of the population starting in school, to try to eradicate the various levels of antisemitism children are indoctrinated into by their parents. This blog’s author and most of its contributors are just decrying what the present government is doing to deepen the existing antisemitism instead of combating it.

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  118. Some1 said:” I am sorry to say that not everyone read Eva’s blog, so the links to donation sites did not start to appear because you posted this on Eva’s blog. I agree that some people may thought of it after reading your entry, but taking full credit for it is a ‘bit overdoing.”

    Had my personal motivation been “taking full credit” for the idea than I would have said something two years ago, BUT I did not. (Believe it or not, this is how an “average Joe” thinks, to my great misfortune, I might add).My comment re: the Red Mud Disaster was NOT ego driven.
    Re: kurucinfo – In my experience, the “average Hungarian Christian Joe” is sick of being called an anti-Semite and the “average Hungarian Jewish Joe “is also had it with being called an anti-Hungarian. If both sides will go on name calling, there will be no solution to this problem. If you don’t agree with me (although I’ll be surprised) I will except it…and life goes on…..after all, we had a good chat!

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  119. Mutt Damon said:
    “I don’t understand a single word of what you’re saying.
    Do you want to continue the chat with Bela Varga to see if you can convince him?”

    No, I do not want you to chat with Bela Varga, but I would seriously start chatting with the 100.000 readers per hour of kurucinfo.

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  120. @enuff:

    “Maygar! (I call him like this because he’s not worth being called a magyar …) is a clear-cut Nazi, so you should ignore him totally – unless you’re in a good mood and want to have a look into some abyss.

    Sometimes I like to make fun of him so I’ve been called a Mischling and he answers me “Put back on your yellow star” – of course he doesn’t understand that I would be proud to have some Jewish (or Hungarian, Italian, whatever) roots …

    These crazy rantings (and he’s not the only Nazi there: HHxx, Géza and others are of the same ilk) can only be understood from a psychiatrist’s viewpoint I think.

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