Viktor Orbán on higher education: An outrage

About a week ago Viktor Orbán announced that he will be taking a two-week holiday because his “batteries were exhausted.” He will spend time with his family in Felcsút and perhaps at Lake Balaton. I’m sure that a lot of people received this announcement with a certain amount of relief because lately the Hungarian prime minister has been delivering speeches that made not the slightest sense. Perhaps these people thought that a two-week rest would have a beneficial effect on Orbán’s nerves and senses.

However, no such luck. He changed his mind and instead of taking a vacation he began a tour, meeting important segments of society. Now, don’t think that these include groups who don’t necessarily agree with him. No, he has pleasant exchanges, perhaps several daily, with his followers. The speeches he has made at these encounters are perhaps even more outrageous than his earlier ones. It was during one of these meetings, this time with the leading lights of Hungarian capitalism, that he announced that at least fifty percent of the banking sector must be in Hungarian hands. I don’t think that I have to elaborate on the nonsensical nature of this particular announcement given the lack of capital in Hungary. It was also during one of these fruitful talks that he announced that public utilities companies in the future should operate on a non-profit basis. Again, I don’t think that one has to dwell on the impossibility of such a scheme–unless, of course, these companies are nationalized, in which case they would probably operate at a loss.

Well, yesterday Orbán met with the leaders of Fidelitas, the youth organization of Fidesz. Most of these people, for example Péter Ágh (1982-), the chairman of Fidelitas, also have high positions either in the Fidesz parliamentary caucus or in the government. So, the prime minister didn’t have to worry too much about adverse reactions to his ideas on higher education.

Let’s get to perhaps the most outrageous idea: within a few years Hungarian higher education will be financially self-sustaining. In plain English, the government will not put a penny into maintaining Hungarian universities. Well, such a thing is simply unimaginable.

There is no country in the world where higher education is maintained simply through tuition. Not even in the United States, which is usually brought up as the example of the most unfair system of higher education in the western world. But in the United States not even private universities, where tuition fees are very high, can exist simply on tuition paid by students. They still need massive financial help from alumni and, yes, grants for research projects or even the teaching of certain subjects that might be useful from the government’s point of view. For instance, during my tenure at Yale we received a grant of $100,000 for a number of years to teach Polish, for which the university didn’t have available funds. And naturally there are the state universities that receive large sums of money from state budgets. For example, for the 2012-2013 school year the University of Connecticut received $284 million from the state of Connecticut. A nice sum, although because of budget cuts it is $45 million less than the year before.

And after Orbán announced that he is planning to maintain Hungarian state universities from tuition fees alone, he immediately added that “I’m an enemy of tuition because we don’t know where students will get the money for tuition. Therefore I’m not arguing in favor of the introduction of a tuition system, but instead I am advocating an arrangement by which the state gives an opportunity to the poorer students to be able to educate themselves through long-term loans.” Thus tuition is not tuition if it is paid with borrowed money.

He elaborated on this plan by saying that “the government doesn’t want to finance walls. Thus we are not interested in ensuring that certain institutions continue to function, but instead we want students to have influence through their application decisions which universities are good and which are not.” This needs a bit of “translation.”

Let’s start with the basic educational philosophy of Viktor Orbán. He wants to limit the number of students who embark on university studies. While the European Union is encouraging countries to increase the number of college graduates, Orbán’s Hungary is moving in the opposite direction. He and Rózsa Hoffmann, undersecretary in charge of education, severely cut back on the number of tuition-free slots–from 53,000 to 32,300.  The immediate result of this decision was that 30,000 fewer high school graduates even applied to college this year.

Now, if I understand Orbán’s words correctly, he wants to limit the number of institutions as well. In a way that makes sense: fewer students need fewer colleges and universities. The decision as to which institutions remain will be based on the number of applicants to each university. Fewer applicants will mean the closing of the school. And the few popular schools that remain will be maintained by the students. They will be the ones who will make sure that the walls of the buildings do not collapse.  Today, in fact, the cabinet will discuss the results of the applications, and those colleges that were less popular will not receive any government subsidy. That is, they will die.

If Fidesz wins the next election, in the next three to five years the “system will be operational [üzembiztos].” And the saddest thing about all this is that his young audience on the ship where the meeting was held didn’t tell him, “You know what?  Jump into the Danube, you fraud!”

54 comments

  1. As a side note to this, the number of Hungarian candidates taking the IELTS exam has increased five-fold in the last six months.

    (IELTS is the Cambridge-accredited qualification of English-proficiency which overseas students are required to submit when they apply to a UK university.)

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  2. The young ones from my wife’s family (they’re lucky to have finished their studies at university – but unlucky in that they had to take jobs where their diplomas don’t count for much) just told me that there was a big kind of show yesterday on M1 (the news ?) which showed how many points one needed to get to some university.

    Of course it didn’t tell how many young ones with les points have no chance to study – unless they (or rather their parents) have enough money …

    Now for the “good” news:

    They and all their friends hate Fidesz and its politicians so much – but they don’t know what to do, earning a living of course has highest priority …

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  3. Louis Kovach :
    ” Now, don’t think that these include groups who don’t necessarily agree with him. No, he has pleasant exchanges, perhaps several daily, with his followers.”
    Just like this blog

    Well, no, not quite. Here’s the difference, as I understand it.

    1) Professor Balogh does her blog each day, containing her views and thoughts. Blog readership grows.
    2) Orban Viktor gives various speeches and interviews over two years as PM, detailing his views and thoughts. His party’s popularity steadily declines.

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  4. Louis Kovach :
    ” Now, don’t think that these include groups who don’t necessarily agree with him. No, he has pleasant exchanges, perhaps several daily, with his followers.”
    Just like this blog

    THis is an open blog Kovach. I thought you knew that. We also do not have many pleasant exchanges with you or yesterday with the other nazi. I doubt that you can just walk into the meetings with Orban.

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  5. The poor guy thought this was funny. Like “Hey! His shoes are untied! Yours too! Hahaha …”
    Kovach the intellectual giant. He is the only one here who’s not “following”. He is here to cure his allodoxaphobia. Not much success so far.

    I know. This was childish and ad hominem but we deserve a little fun after yesterday’s horrors.

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  6. I think a quote from Conan O’Brian fits well Orban and coincidentally our own nationalist, Louis Kovach. “When all else fails there’s always delusion.”

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  7. Bowen :

    As a side note to this, the number of Hungarian candidates taking the IELTS exam has increased five-fold in the last six months.

    (IELTS is the Cambridge-accredited qualification of English-proficiency which overseas students are required to submit when they apply to a UK university.)

    Wow, that’s fascinating.

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  8. Well, no, not quite. Here’s the difference, as I understand it.

    1) Professor Balogh does her blog each day, containing her views and thoughts. Blog readership grows.
    2) Orban Viktor gives various speeches and interviews over two years as PM, detailing his views and thoughts. His party’s popularity steadily declines.

    Actually, I’m happy to report that the readership is steadily growing.

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  9. If I would be sarcastic, I could ascribe to the success of the blog’s philosophy for the lates Tarki results. From the always reliable ATV:

    “A Fidesz-KDNP támogatottsága a teljes népességen belül június után júliusban is 18 százalék, míg az MSZP-é 14-ről 12 százalékra változott. A pártpreferenciájukat tekintve bizonytalanok vagy azt el nem árulók aránya viszont 48-ról 52 százalékra nőtt az elmúlt egy hónap alatt.

    A pártválasztók körében a Fidesz-KDNP támogatottsága 36-ról 38 százalékra, az MSZP-é pedig 27 százalékról 25-re módosult.

    A többi parlamenti párt népszerűsége is lényegében változatlan: júniusban a Jobbik a teljes népesség 11 százalékának bizalmát élvezte, ami júliusban 10 százalékon áll, a pártválasztók körében pedig mindkét hónapban 22 százalékos a támogatottságuk. Az LMP a teljes népességen belül júniusban és júliusban egyaránt 5 százalékot, a pártválasztók körében 10 százalékot ért el. A Demokratikus Koalíció szavazói a teljes népességen belül mindkét hónapban 2 százalékot, a pártválasztók körében pedig 3 százalékot tesznek ki.”

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  10. Louis, for your information these results are not statistically significant (except for LMP’s continuing evaporation). It’s more comforting to quote numbers than just make assertions, I know, but it’s best not to stray far from home when you do.

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  11. Louis Kovach :
    If I would be sarcastic, I could ascribe to the success of the blog’s philosophy for the lates Tarki results.

    The 2% FIDESZ gain in July is because the Hungarian electorate doesn’t like the Hungarian Spectrum? Kovach, you are clearly loosing it …

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  12. Mutt Damon :

    Louis Kovach :
    If I would be sarcastic, I could ascribe to the success of the blog’s philosophy for the lates Tarki results.

    The 2% FIDESZ gain in July is because the Hungarian electorate doesn’t like the Hungarian Spectrum? Kovach, you are clearly loosing it …

    When more than 50% of the electorate refuses to divulge its party preference it is hard to take these polls terribly seriously. Moreover, only a few days ago Ipsos measured a 1% loss for both parties compared to the June figures. Ipsos measured 33% for Fidesz and 30% for MSZP in the electorate as a whole. So what?

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  13. SORRY OT.
    GREAT NEWS (especially for Louis who wanted to hear from real witnesses regarding the Csatary affair)
    In the archives of the Slovak National Memory Institute (UPN) is the file of the court decision of Csatary’s death sentence.
    The file contains the testimony of witnesses, records of the arrest warrant issued on March 16th 1948 arrest warrant, and Csatary description as well. (He was sentenced to death by the way. Maybe Jobbik is right and in certain cases they should bring back the death sentence.)
    According to testimonies of guards who were Csatary’s subordinates, Csatary instructed them to be ruthless to the Jews in the Kosice collection camp, as well Csatary also actively participated in torture and humiliation.
    Csatary also ordered the deportation to concentration camps of such persons who were not subject to deportation, and were not physically able to withstand transport.

    THis is just a sample of the “innocent, old man” background. You can read more about him here: http://index.hu/kulfold/2012/07/26/hianyzik_csatary_laszlo_perenek_itelete/
    http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2012/07/26/slovak-jewish-community-wants-alleged-nazi-to-stand-trial-on-slovak-soil/

    (As Kovach said, when sided with Csatary “To each his own….” Well, we always knew that Kovach.)

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  14. Some1: “GREAT NEWS (especially for Louis who wanted to hear from real witnesses regarding the Csatary affair)”

    What I have said that it is up to the courts to decide what can or cannot be used. Dr Balogh tried to lecture me on the Constitution and if she would check it she could learn about the proper legal system also. You probably wouldn’t even comprehend it.

    I have also stated that he should be handed over to the Slovaks, just as the Ujvidek gang was handed over to the Yougoslavs.

    With your mental ability you can’t even remember what I have written and distort almost everything I write in your responses.
    My comment for each his own was for your Bodoki reliability comment.

    Your Constitution is “Hang him tonight and give him a fair trial tomorrow”. Lynch mob law went out of style with the demise of the KKK, but maybe some blog partixpants think it was a great idea,

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  15. Kovach, we don’t want to hang anybody without a trial unlike your good buddy Bela Varga. If you believe that Csatary was falsely convicted in 48, you and your buddy should start a fundraising to finance his legal battle to clear the poor old man’s name.

    I’m not a constitutional expert (not like you at least) but IMHO accusation is not against the constitution (false or true). It’s up to the courts ti decide if it has merits. So go ahead and prove we are wrong.

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  16. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: “GREAT NEWS (especially for Louis who wanted to hear from real witnesses regarding the Csatary affair)”
    What I have said that it is up to the courts to decide what can or cannot be used. Dr Balogh tried to lecture me on the Constitution and if she would check it she could learn about the proper legal system also. You probably wouldn’t even comprehend it.
    I have also stated that he should be handed over to the Slovaks, just as the Ujvidek gang was handed over to the Yougoslavs.
    With your mental ability you can’t even remember what I have written and distort almost everything I write in your responses.
    My comment for each his own was for your Bodoki reliability comment.
    Your Constitution is “Hang him tonight and give him a fair trial tomorrow”. Lynch mob law went out of style with the demise of the KKK, but maybe some blog partixpants think it was a great idea,

    bahaha Nobody wanted to hang him. Nobody wanted to take away his constitutional rights. People simply wanted him to be arrested and not enjoy the freedom that is not given to anyone under such serious charges. You did not believe any of the cahrges against him or that even existed. It was well know that he escaped prosecution, he lied to the Canadian authorities, he was kicked out Canada because of his lies. The documents were not standing by and you assumed that maybe are gone. Well Kovach they are not gone.
    You had the same attitude with Horthy and all the right wing writers, so stop whining, be a man, and suck it up. Oh and regarding Bodoki . You decided to believe kuricinfo and Bela Varga versus Bodoki. THe funny thing is that probably you would of loved Bodoki’s article about the Hungarian police “brutality” in 2006, but now, because he does have a spine, and talks honestly about the kuricinfo and Varga, you question his integrity. Well l side with Bodoki “as my own”, and you side with the nazi Varga and kurucinfo. So, what did I exact;y misrepresented?
    Again, I have t feel sorry for you and the other extreme-right individuals, as you keep tripping over on your own mass.

    And for those of you who want to know who Kovach does not want to side with:
    Tamás Bodoky, Hungary, is editor-in-chief of atlatszo.hu, a Hungarian watchdog organization and investigative news portal, and assistant professor at Károli Gáspár University in Budapest.

    Bodoky has won the Gőbölyös Soma Prize for investigative journalism and the Szabadság Prize for articles on unrest and police brutality in Hungary in 2006. He also won the Iustitia Regnorum Fundamentum Award and the Hungarian Pulitzer Memorial Prize for his work on corruption. Bodoky holds advanced degrees in Agricultural Sciences and Language Sciences. He is a Marshall Memorial Fellowship alumni and member of the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project; part of the team that won a Daniel Pearl Award.

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  17. *** BREAKING NEWS ***

    “… and we are hoping that with God’s help, we will not have to create other political systems, that we need to introduce for the economical survival.”

    – Viktor Orban, today, 26th of July, 2012, in a speech at the National Association of Entrepreneurs

    “… és reméljük a Jóisten megsegít bennünket, hogy a demokrácia helyett nem kell kigondolnunk más típusú politikai rendszereket, amelyeket a gazdasági túlélés érdekében aztán be kelljen vezetni”

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  18. Some1: “You did not believe any of the cahrges against him or that even existed”

    Simply, you lie! I never said anything like it. I have not sided with Varga, I stated the wrong info was published about him on the blog. I did not say anything about Kuruc info. I stataed that if there are tax issues in the US the IRS will take care of it.

    Regarding Bodoky, I have no respect for folks who want to imitate Asange.

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  19. I know, right?? What on earth is this whole speech?? I’m really really really sorry but there might be a point when I’ll be actually forced to crown myself against my own will??

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  20. Jano :
    I know, right?? What on earth is this whole speech?? I’m really really really sorry but there might be a point when I’ll be actually forced to crown myself against my own will??

    I’m afraid he didn’t mean kingdom …

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  21. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: “You did not believe any of the cahrges against him or that even existed”
    Simply, you lie! I never said anything like it. I have not sided with Varga, I stated the wrong info was published about him on the blog. I did not say anything about Kuruc info. I stataed that if there are tax issues in the US the IRS will take care of it.
    Regarding Bodoky, I have no respect for folks who want to imitate Asange.

    You did not spelled it out Kovach, you implied it. Every post you make underscores your unwillingness to remotely agree wit any opinion Eva suggests. Your constant attack agains every single blog entry clearly demonstrates your priorities Kovach. In the entry where Bela Varga’s activities to “protect” the poor, old, 96 years old man were discussed, you raised no issues with Varga’s methods, the blood money, you went ahead and defended the constitutional rights of Csatary (that was NEVER threathened by the way), not the constitutional rights of the protesters, you did not say anything about Varga but used that threat to went your constant iidiocracies.
    Every single time you call Eva’s integrity and knowledge into question but you never attacked the subjects. You are so simple that even after I tried to protect you from name calling, you went against me and started to call me names, just because I do not agree what you say. You keep saying that everyone is stupid who contributes to this blog, but then why on earth are you still here? WHy don’t you take your great knowledge to kurucinfo where the readers and contributors can match your research skills, and general disposition.
    THis forum is not about you and your battle with everyone who happen to embrace liberal values, so spare me from your “I did not exactly say that” attitude.

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  22. My prevopus pos

    Louis Kovach :
    Regarding Bodoky, I have no respect for folks who want to imitate Asange.

    I guess you do not like investigative journalist. I am not concerned about your like or dislike, simply people have to accept that truth when it is factual. I guess you despised Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein too.

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  23. Mutt Damon :
    *** BREAKING NEWS ***
    “… and we are hoping that with God’s help, we will not have to create other political systems, that we need to introduce for the economical survival.”
    – Viktor Orban, today, 26th of July, 2012, in a speech at the National Association of Entrepreneurs
    “… és reméljük a Jóisten megsegít bennünket, hogy a demokrácia helyett nem kell kigondolnunk más típusú politikai rendszereket, amelyeket a gazdasági túlélés érdekében aztán be kelljen vezetni”

    small correction:
    “… and we are hoping that with God’s help, instead of democracy we will not have to create other political systems, that we need to introduce for the economical survival.”

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  24. So economic survival might be possible only if democracy is suspended? I think it is related to what we were speaking about in the other thread and what has (apparently) happened in Romania as well – in a very complicated situation, the democratic institutions are unable to generate workable solutions in these countries. I for one find it at least honest that this is admitted so that it is clear that those who want democracy really have to make a fresh attempt. That will be easier than the search for how to square democracy with the Viktor Orban-system.

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  25. Kirsten :
    So economic survival might be possible only if democracy is suspended? I think it is related to what we were speaking about in the other thread and what has (apparently) happened in Romania as well – in a very complicated situation, the democratic institutions are unable to generate workable solutions in these countries. I for one find it at least honest that this is admitted so that it is clear that those who want democracy really have to make a fresh attempt. That will be easier than the search for how to square democracy with the Viktor Orban-system.

    This is not an admission, this is just building up an excuse to be able to turn to more openly totalitarian solutions. So, let’s say the economy turns really bad (there is a high chance for that, not only because of the financial crisis in the EU, but also because of the current government’s inept economic policies, or maybe simply because Orban won’t enter into an agreement with the IMF)… in that case, Orban has the perfect excuse to initiate emergency measures and suspend what remained of the Hungarian democratic system.

    Simply put, he has plans to use an economic crisis to his advantage and centralize his power further. So, I think what he really meant is “I’m really trying to avoid such situation, but in case it is unavoidable, (and I’ll make sure it is unavoidable), I can’t do anything else but institute an alternative political system. You see, it’s not my fault, I’m doing everything to avoid it”.

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  26. Our “most dearestest” leader, Orban the 5th, was spreading the pearls of wisdom today. Here is more from the same speech. Please correct the translation. For instance, I’m not sure about the “centralized unity” (központi összefogás). What is that? I’m pretty sure the “half-Asian hordes” will blow the fuse with the turul troopers … Enjoy.

    “Unity is not a matter of intentions but a matter of power. Maybe there are countries where it does not work this way, like in the Scandinavian countries, but such half-Asian hordes like us can only unite if there is power present. This does not preclude consultation, debate and democracy, but there is a need for centralized unity as the country’s historical heritage suggests.”

    „Az összefogás nem szándék kérdése, hanem erő kérdése. Lehet hogy vannak országok, ahol ez nem így működik, például a skandinávoknál, de egy ilyen félázsiai népség, mint mi, akkor tud összefogni, ha erő van. Ez nem zárja ki a konzultációt, a vitát és a demokráciát, de kell egy központi összefogás, ami az ország történelmi tapasztalataiból is levonható”

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  27. Mutt, probably you will not find consolation in the interpretation that he has already noticed that you are not “complete Asian hordes” anymore. Very weird! It is difficult to detect any Asian element in the faces of Hungarians if they are not of Vietnamese origin and immigrated 20 to 25 years ago. But I am curious to learn how many people buy into this “medieval Asian tribe” thinking. I am afraid not too few…

    Which brings me to the point that An raised. It might be that OV simply prepares his people for the imminent autocracy he is going to establish now officially. But for me he said: I have no other clue to stabilise the economy than autocracy. I am nearly sure that he will not stabilise it even with autocracy – so why is his alleged objective compelling? Matolcsy will not become brighter when serving an autocrat and most educated people know that…

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  28. Kirsten, Orban’ is not interested in stabilizing the economy. He is interested in riding things out and making the most of any situation that comes along, good or bad…. You are asking questions that a logical person/politician would ask… he is not logical, he has mental issues.

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  29. Kirsten: “It might be that OV simply prepares his people for the imminent autocracy he is going to establish now officially. But for me he said: I have no other clue to stabilise the economy than autocracy. ”

    This guy forgets that he used to be the promising young man who was the promise of a new democracy, following decades of autocracy (or worse). But it seems that power has this strange effect on memory…

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  30. “but such half-Asian hordes like us can only unite if there is power present. This does not preclude consultation ”

    Half-Asians? ..hahaha.. Ok, maybe some Hungarians still have tiny 0.000001% of asian heritage in them. But as he make this statement, has he checked his own heritage? Is he excluding all others Hungarians who have immigrated hundreds of years ago to this country. He is crazier than I thought!

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  31. enufff :
    “but such half-Asian hordes like us can only unite if there is power present. This does not preclude consultation ”
    Half-Asians? ..hahaha.. Ok, maybe some Hungarians still have tiny 0.000001% of asian heritage in them.

    enuff, actually this statement is very interesting. So, who is the True Hungarian then? I mean even from Jobbik or the nationalistic movements perspective, what are the percentages of Aian and whatever need to be in the mix to be True Hungarian. As we know it cannot be Jewish in the mix or gypsy for that matter. Anyone read anything about the perfect Hungarian race or those who qualify? Maybe Kovach can answer this, as he was very immersed about the Jewish settling in Hungary, maybe he has other information about who mixed into this Asian blood?

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  32. Some1: “Maybe Kovach can answer this,”

    There are very few actual thematic descriptions from the early “history”. There is always a tremendous amount of mythology put into many national historical description even when some documentation is available. The documentation in many casas is also questionable , particularly beacuse it was written well past the events described and often by faulty copying thrpugh the ages. Based on information available to me, there are some answers and some very large questionmarks regarding Hungary’s original and subsequently developed population.

    First of all it rarely happaned that an extant population completely disappeared from a particular locality (Maybe Jericho was one, based on the Bible.) Thus, folks who resides in the Carpathian basis prior to the Hungarians are indicated to present at the times of the Hungarian arrival, i.e, the avars who came in two groups about 200 years apart.It is also indicated that the Slavs were introduced into Central Europe by the avars, thus it can be expected that some slavic population also existed in the Basin. Remnants of earlier arrivals , Huns, Marcomanni, Quadi, Sarmatians, Dacians, Gepidi, Alani and Jazigi probaly melded into each other if not migrated with their folks elsewhere. However, even these were mixed and only partly Aryan.

    The Hungarians arrived with several Kazar tribes (at least three) into the Basin, they apparently mixed well with the non-Khazar portion (Of course there are those who claim that the E European Jews are descendants of the Khazars, but I leave that up to folks like Shlomo Sand who spent more time investigationg the issue.)

    Subsequent to the “Hungarian” arrival some (most likely ) turkic groups who battled the Hungarians also arrived such as some remnants of the Petchenegs. Then came an extensive Germanic immigration to support St Stephen’s powergrab. Following that the major entrence was the two Cuman intrusions one before one after the Mongol invasion. Those were mixed with Jazigi also, settling mainly in the middle of the Basin ( Kun-, Jasz-, etc. At least form other area DNA studies not many mongols mixed with the local populations, they killed rather than just raped.
    Subsequent changes will be in another post, becuase it is getting too long for one.

    .

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  33. However, some Mongol (or affiliate tribe) folks did stay, as there are several Tatar- localities and it is not an uncommon name in Hungary. Subsequent to the “Tatarjaras” German settlers were brought in, mainly for the mining districts and the very extensive Cuman settlement took place. The tatarjaras also caused some further development of pastoral localities in the mountains, which were less accessible to roaming Mongol hordes.
    The causes of the next intrusions were the appearance of the Seljuk Turks in the Balkans, pushing folks northward. This resulted in Vlach and later Serbian and Croat migration to the Southern area of the Basin.
    After Mohacs, there were only limited intrusions until the expulsion of the Turks, when very extensive German and any other immigration was encouraged or only permitted as in the Banat and Bacska region were Hungarians were not permitted to settle (revenge for Thokoly first and Rakoczy later). Again, as in the Tatar case, only limited Turkish remnants stayed in the Basin. The cities became extensively Germanized and mostly the center and specific areas (“Szekelyfold”) were considered original settlers.
    The major difference after the Tatarjaras from the previous immigration was that the folks melded into the population rather than forming unique “foreign” localities. Part of the reason for this was that these migrations were government organized (Hapsburgs mainly) and awarded specific privileges. In many of those localities only limited mixing took place between the newcomers and the extant population.
    There was not a specific period of Gypsy immigration into Hungary; it was almost continuous from the 1500s onward.
    In spite of very extensive Hapsburg efforts, there was “magyarization’ in the Basin, at that time mostly voluntary. The next and last large group arriving in the Basin was the Galician Jews. Their integration into the rest of the population was a mixed event, some were very successful, and some were not.
    Thus, Hungary was and always had a polyglot population (some components strictly Asiatic) that after the Turkish wars was incapable of assimilating the waves of immigrants into a homogenous society.
    So who are the “true” Hungarians? Those who feel that they are, those who are willing to be part (and not deriding) its history, those who want work for the betterment of the COMMON good and not only their own can fairly be considered true Hungarians. Not to dissimilar answer than what would be given by a “true” Jew regarding Israel.

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  34. Louis Kovach :
    So who are the “true” Hungarians? Those who feel that they are, those who are willing to be part (and not deriding) its history, those who want work for the betterment of the COMMON good and not only their own can fairly be considered true Hungarians. Not to dissimilar answer than what would be given by a “true” Jew regarding Israel.

    I liked the “rape first, kill later” description of the Mongols.

    As others already stated the half-Asian wasn’t a “genetical” category from the Grofaz’ part. If it was, then he should be chased to Canada.

    Why was the last sentence relavant?

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  35. Mutt Damon :
    Kovach, I don’t want to interrupt you, but don’t forget your are answering a question about the perfect Hungarian race …

    I second that.
    Let me rephrase the questions, that I believe was very simple and did not require a dissertation on Hungarian anthropology.
    Based on Orban’s statement, the knowledge that Hungarians are kind of a crossbreed, the advocacy for the True Hungarians’ rights by Jobbik and other nationalists, what is the True Hungarian make-up? Who are the True Hungarians who would have all the Hungarian rights or would not be accused of trying to take over the land? How many percentage of Tatar, Mongol, Turkish, etc. blood can they have so they can be still called True Hungarians? Can any Jewish blood mixed in that, and what percentage? (Orban said that Jews in Hungary are minority, so he does not consider them Hungarian.) Same with gypsies.. How about if a Transylvanian married a Romanian and they had children. Would the child be Hungarian? Are my kids Hungarian, Canadians or Jews? My other half is Canadian (Irish, Scottish), and I am a Hungarian Jew, but I am not sure about my Jewish relatives history (Was my great-great-great grandmother raped by the Turks, or even by the Mongols? No clue.) Who is a True Hungarian?

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  36. Louis Kovach :

    So who are the “true” Hungarians? Those who feel that they are, those who are willing to be part (and not deriding) its history, those who want work for the betterment of the COMMON good and not only their own can fairly be considered true Hungarians.

    So, your children and grandchildren do not qualify, on the other hand most homosexuals, and most Jews are. WHy would Orban call them minorities? THis cannot be the answer. Read above.

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  37. Louis Kovach, Also I am not sure that most Transylvanians or across the border Hungarians who will have a voting right would qualify either based on your non genetical, but broad description, while Paul and other foreign posters (even Prof. Kim Scheppele) qualify. THey do want to work for the betterment of the COMMON good.

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  38. Mr Kovach you wrote in reply to Mr Damon ** “Due to similarity,” **

    I always find it difficult to understand the problem you are referring to here.

    if you are talking about Jews, then you are mixing up a ‘religion’ with what to me is an ethnic origins. If you were to go back in time to say the period at the beginning of Imperial Rome, you would find that quite a large part of the Greek population of the Levant had adopted the Jewish monotheistic faith. Admittedly the Jewish religion and many other faiths encourage marriage within the faith.

    Please do not confuse a person’s faith with their ethnic origin that way leads you into an anthropologists ‘fairyland’ where you will meet up more weirdo’s than you can shake a stick at in a long day.

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  39. Some1: No, my children and grandchildren do not qualify, unless they want be part of Hungary at some future time. None of them speak Hungarian and they know very little about Hungarian history. I consider them good Americans.

    As far as I am concerned, once one hyphenates, the problem starts. Old Dakota saying “You cant ride two horses at once” or another version “If you try riding two horses you will fall off both”

    Regarding the Jewish issue, I can’t comment unless you tell me if that is a religion, a nationality or a race. (BTW, I know the term race is chaning meaning thiese days, I use it here in the conventional sense.)
    But I would consider your children, and hope, they are good Canadians.

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  40. I fail to see why anyone is answering or commenting on louis kovatch’s provocations, and idiotic remarks. I for one, pledge that I will never again engage in any communication with him, nor will I comment on anything he writes about. If we all do that he may get bored. Or maybe not, he is so full of himself, he probably would still enjoy writing to “deaf ears”.

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  41. Hi Thomas!

    I absolutely agree with you – but sometimes the idiotic comments are so funny/strange that I have to answer – and it seems that others feel the same.

    Btw, welcome back from Russia – or are you another Thomas ?

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  42. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: No, my children and grandchildren do not qualify, unless they want be part of Hungary at some future time. None of them speak Hungarian and they know very little about Hungarian history. I consider them good Americans.
    As far as I am concerned, once one hyphenates, the problem starts. Old Dakota saying “You cant ride two horses at once” or another version “If you try riding two horses you will fall off both”
    Regarding the Jewish issue, I can’t comment unless you tell me if that is a religion, a nationality or a race. (BTW, I know the term race is chaning meaning thiese days, I use it here in the conventional sense.)
    But I would consider your children, and hope, they are good Canadians.

    They are great Canadians, thanks for saying. I am sure the people in Transylvania are good Romanians too. Jewish in Canada (or for that matter in the USA) does not qualify as a deciding factor about citizenship, and even if you do not spek English you qualify as a citizen (otherwise many ’56 Hungarians also would of had to wait iver a decade at least for their citizenship). So it is ony the language? I know many Jews in Hungary who ONLY speak Hungarian, born in Hungary (even their great-grandparents born there), worked all of their lives, but Orban considers them minority. (let’s not even start with what Csatary or kuricinfo conisiders them.) Would you agree with that?

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  43. Odin’s lost eye :
    Mr Kovach you wrote in reply to Mr Damon ** “Due to similarity,” **
    I always find it difficult to understand the problem you are referring to here.

    The last sentence indeeds helps understand this crude logic. “Hungarianness” is in actual fact the Hungarian’s true religion. Now the obsession with Jews becomes clearer – they already have a religion and most probably do not consider “Hungarianness” a religion! Admittedly, “true Hungarians” also claim (or pretend?) to be of Christian faith – but this sentence of Kovach clearly puts it into perspective (as do the actions of the “true Hungarians”). The amazing mix of influences and people in the Carpathian Basin as described by Kovach eventually ends with: the true Hungarians are those who believe the national myth in its most colourful manifestation. Wow.

    I am very grateful for this as I was really thinking that there must be more to it than this. So koszonom szepen to Kovach and his Fidesz crew!

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  44. Some1: “I am sure the people in Transylvania are good Romanians too.”

    IMHO, there is a difference in feelings when the people move and when borders move. Based on your terminology, all of the Palestininas are good Israelis because the border moved past them. I did not say that language alone is the determining factor. But I hope you are aware that in the USA one has to take a lnguage and constitution exam to become a citizen.

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  45. Kirsten: “Kovach eventually ends with: the true Hungarians are those who believe the national myth in its most colourful manifestation. Wow.”

    For national myths, please see Shlomo Sand’s eminent description.

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