Tribal meeting of the Turanians with Hungarian government support

It was two years ago that I wrote about a Turanian tribal meeting in Hungary. At that time a friend of mine sent me a link to a Hungarian-language paper published in Romania. The article he called my attention to was a detailed description of Kurultaj 2010, a three-day affair organized by the Hungarian-Turanian Foundation.

Those were the good old days. By now the fourth Turanian tribal meeting that is being held in Hungary starting today is a semi-official, government sponsored affair. One doesn’t have to go to an obscure Romanian website to read a description of  the event. Today, one of the Fidesz deputy speakers of the house is the sponsor of the tribal meeting and the Hungarian government is providing a generous grant of 70 million forints to the foundation to hold the gathering.

Last year apparently 150,000 people attended the affair, but this year the organizers are expecting 250,000. And while two years ago the delegations of 12 countries took part in the event, this year the number of participating countries is 25. The organizers expect forty newspapermen from Turkey alone. Ten countries’ television crews will also be present. The entertainment is being provided by 111 groups made up of people with an interest in early Hungarian history and customs.

Sándor Lezsák greets the visiting tribal leaders in parliament

The participants coming from abroad, allegedly relatives of the Hungarians, were greeted with great fanfare in parliament, in the chamber of the former upper house. Even the Foreign Ministry was represented by Ernő Keskeny, the head of the department dealing with Eastern Europe and Central Asia. He emphasized that “the organization of Kurultaj is in accord with the present government’s foreign policy strategy, the politics of opening toward the East, and it will surely contribute to its success.” Until now this event was associated exclusively with Jobbik, but it seems that the Hungarian government is now actively supporting this yearly gathering of  the Hungarian-Turanian Foundation.

There are two problems with Turanism. The first is that it is a completely bogus theory that has no scientific foundation. The second is that Hungarian Turanism is associated with Ferenc Szálasi’s Hungarism as well as the ideology of Jobbik.

The term “Turanian” was coined by Max Müller (1823-1900), a German orientalist. He called all languages that did not belong to the Indo-European or the Semitic language families Turanian. Linguistically it turned out to be a faulty theory, but “Turanian” continued to be used in a geopolitical sense for a while. Turan is the Persian name for Central Asia, and the original Turanians were an ancient Iranian tribe. Jobbik’s support of Iran can perhaps understood not only as a reflection of its anti-Semitism but also of its attachment to the idea of Turanism.

Turanian lands and people according to the Hungarian-Turanian Society

Turanism in Hungary became especially fashionable in far-right circles after World War I. They were disillusioned with the West because of the Treaty of Trianon and turned toward the East in search of new allies. Doesn’t that sound familiar? The most radical Turanians actually stressed the superiority of Eastern culture and race over the Caucasians of the West. Ferenc Szálasi was among those who believed in the existence of a Turanian-Hungarian race that also included Jesus Christ; this idea became a key part of his ideology of Hungarism.

Today Jobbik and its president are wholehearted supporters of Turanism and Pan-Turkism since Jobbik considers Hungarian to be a Turkic language. And it seems that the Hungarian government is ready to join ranks with Jobbik in supporting Turanism, thereby standing behind an absolutely unscientific theory. Two years ago I thought that Sándor Lezsák (Fidesz) might not be familiar with the history of Hungarian Turanism. By now, I am certain that he knows all about Turanism past and present and belongs to the extreme right of the party whose ideology includes a belief in Turanism. I would put László Kövér in the same category. With the “rehabilitation” of the Horthy regime comes a revitalization of Turanism. Where will this all lead? Certainly not back to Turan but perhaps out of the community of European nations in spirit and ideology.

90 comments

  1. London Calling!

    Totallybogus:

    ‘Some1′ said Michael Jackson was a Turanian?

    Read back.

    Well he conflated ‘African’ with ‘Neverland’ – but I knew what me meant!

    That’s the only thing I could make sense of in this thread?

    Regards

    Charlie

  2. London Calling!

    I just need a little help with my ‘Michael-Jackson-Was-A-Turanian’ theory.

    He certainly had almond shaped eyes – when we could see them of course.

    And he had olive skin (well most of the time) and black hair. OK not white skin or yellow – but maybe in between? (And he was certainly a proud in-betweener if you catch my drift!)

    And of course no one would have dared calling him an European (he was not a cheese eating surrender monkey!)

    The problem I have is with the nose?

    What shape is a typical Turanian nose?

    I know I’ll have problems when I find a typical example – because we know he had quite a few problems in that area – but I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it!

    Your help would be appreciated!

    Regards

    Charlie

  3. Charlie, just read this for a start (and a good laugh – but only if you’re in the mood …)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Turanism

    And if you’re in another mood, maybe this might help:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Turan
    “The Curse of Turan (Hungarian: Turáni átok) is a belief that Hungarians have been under the influence of a malicious spell for many centuries. The “curse” manifests itself as inner strife, pessimism, misfortune and several historic catastrophes.”

    Still I wonder why some Hungarian Jews had the name “Turan” – like the famous mathematician …

    PS: There also was a Hungarian tank called Turan in WW2:

    The Turan was employed by the 1st and 2nd Hungarian Armored Divisions, as well as the 1st Cavalry Division, in 1943 and 1944. Both types were hopelessly outclassed by the Soviet’s superior T-34 and IS-2 tanks.

  4. Realities :

    An :

    Louis Kovach :
    Gypsy people are in europe only for 600 years, they came from India. It was close to impossible a marriage with a gypsy or jewish people before the 20th century. However balkan people (romanians serbs bugarians etc…) mixed with turks gypsies etc. (It is proved by genetiics too) that’s why Balkan-people have average darker pigmentation (eye hair color)

    My understanding is that the Gypsies were slaves in Romania until the end of the XIX century. This makes intermarriages unlikely.

  5. @gdfxx and @realities: Yes, gypsies were slaves in Romania but not in Hungary. Yes, intermarriages were and still very rare (both in Hungary and in Romania).

    I still contend that Hungarians are a mixed brunch, see my earlier post on that. My family is German on the one side and Slav, with some possibly “Kun” on the other side. Also, there are rumors in the family of having gypsy and Jewish in the line somewhere… though that may be just family folklore… no evidence that I know of.

  6. @ CharlieH (London Calling) Maybe you should read a little more about what our true Hungarians claim. My whole point is that if you anyone tales it remotely serious who the true Hungarians supposed to be, then they should go back all the way to Adam and Eve if they are religious or back to Africa where the human species came from. THe whole idea of proposing that Hungarians are related to Asians certainly true but if we move back on the timeline Hungarians also related to all races that came form Africa.
    Sorry that you had a hard time to follow this thread, but the whole idea of celebrating our Turanian roots and embracing our Turanian heritage is full of garbage in a time when Hungary cannot even properly celebrate its diverse culture.
    Neverland is also puts Kovach’s storkland into perspective.
    PLease also read the Hungarians World Congress’ New Definition of the Hungarian Nation, that according to them clearly spells out how far we supposed to go back to be considered to be true Hungarians and who is a true Hungarian. It is a shameful blurb that makes as much sense as much sense the whole fascination with being a true Hungarian means that you marched wit the Hungarian tribes between a certain period. Anything before and anything after just bot count according to them.

  7. One more note on the mixing…. my uncle married a Jewish woman, and when I was born, my catholic parents asked them to be my godparents. Both my uncle and his wife agreed, so my godmother is in fact Jewish…. I really don’t know why she agreed to this, but I think it’s pretty funny.

  8. An :
    One more note on the mixing…. my uncle married a Jewish woman, and when I was born, my catholic parents asked them to be my godparents. Both my uncle and his wife agreed, so my godmother is in fact Jewish…. I really don’t know why she agreed to this, but I think it’s pretty funny.

    I decided to look up the origin of the word “godparent”, where else, in Wikipedia. I did this because in Hungarian the word is even more Christian than in English, literally it translates as “parent of the cross”. The Wikipedia article sounds interesting (although I have no idea how accurate it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godparent ), and I see that the Catholic Church is quite restrictive even today as of who can fulfill this role.

  9. This has gotten ridiculous. Talk about degenerating into babble. Some1 and Charlie, go stir your shit somewhere else. All this Michael Jackson nonsense isn’t even funny. Nobody claimed he was Turanian, talk about stupidity. You sound like children. Get over yourselves. This is a topic that is important to many people. Show some respect.

  10. totallybogan :
    This has gotten ridiculous. Talk about degenerating into babble. Some1 and Charlie, go stir your shit somewhere else. All this Michael Jackson nonsense isn’t even funny. Nobody claimed he was Turanian, talk about stupidity. You sound like children. Get over yourselves. This is a topic that is important to many people. Show some respect.

    You get over yourself. I did not bring in Michael Jackson here, so learn ti read. I did not see you here to post here to often. or not by that name. You have no idea what my posts are referring to that is an old “conversation”with Kovach, where he refused to specify what is the cut off line for someone being considered to be real Hungarian. The whole point is that all Jews or gypsies who’s heritage in Hungary goes back by centuries are as much Hungarian as the stupid definition set by Kovach or the Hungarians’ World Congress’ New Definition of the Hungarian Nation or a stupid get together for Turanians. If you do not find that scary I feel sorry for you. If your whole input about how Hungarians celebrate their Asian roots while freely speech and teach anti-semitism, then your respect lies with those crappy organizations, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Hungarian Jews are more Hungarian then Asians who never even stepped on Hungarian soil. So totally bogan where is your loyalty lies with the Hungarian Jews and gyspies or wit the Asians and Turks who never stepped on Hungarin soil?

    1. I have nothing against Jews, and at least I never denied their existence in Hungary. Tell me, however, what positive things Gypsies have done for ANY country they now live in. I have learnt the hard way not to trust one, so my sympathies will never be with them. As for Asians and Turks never setting foot on Hungarian land, are you kidding? Are you saying you see NO traces of their ancestry among at least SOME Hungarians at ALL? Because that’s about ALL I see when I look at MY Hungarian family. You don’t know me. Dont tell me my family’s roots. Is it so hard to believe that not all Hungarians are not Germanic, Roma or Semitic? If that is your own frame of reference, that is fair enough, but don’t tell me about mine. I suffer RACISM from Anglo Australians for my Eurasian appearance. Is THAT in my head, too?

  11. p.s. I never connected Neverland to Michael Jackson (that was CharlieH). For me Neverland is connected t the idea of J. M. Barrie. If in any doubt, please do your research to figure out what it refers to.

  12. London Calling!

    Some1 I owe you an apology. Sorry.

    I always read your posts and yes – I did get your point. I too am not a believer in the bible and you were generously making allowances for those who do.

    Regarding that just quickly – I find a blade of grass is a miracle – as is the universe – so I don’t need ‘Father Christmas’ type stories to seek refuge in. I am trying understand our existence that fits all the miracles of the universe.

    This link does my beliefs justice – so far – if you would do me the courtesy of having a look.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

    As regards ‘Turanism’ I was having fun! Eva’s post analyses it so succinctly – and Wolfi’s links adds to the mix – that Turanism is, in my view, a load of old codswallop.

    I have the confidence and satisfaction of knowing that I am English – there are no shades of Englishness, I am an Englishman – no less, or greater. I can look the world in the eye as such. I neither feel inferior or superior. I don’t need to reinforce my Englishness by finding false scientific evidence to show whether I am ‘Pure’ or not.

    Hungarians born in Hungary are Hungarian. There is no gradation. Most of the population believes this. There are no ‘pure’ or ‘impure’ Hungarians. Just as England is made up of Picts. Vikings, Saxons and other ‘tribes’ – then Hungarians (‘True’ Hungarians!) are made up of many tribes too. But they are all Hungarian!

    I did look at the site that tried to define ‘Hungarianism’ – from a Google translation. I am afraid to say that this is tilting at windmills – complete balderdash! I don’t think it would have made sense in a perfect translation either – but I got the gist.

    All this ‘True’ Hungarian balderdash (and yes ‘Turanism’ too) smacks of the Nazis who tried to define a true ‘Aryan’ race – complete bollocks of course.

    Hungary is a Nation of Peoples. Just get on and make it the best society for all. Where everyone is equal. It is hard enough to do that in a decent democratic society – which I believe England is close to – let alone a ‘democratic’ society that Hungary is supposed to be.

    Just do it and drop all this ‘pure’ crap.

    Regards

    Charlie

  13. @ Charlie, Loved it, loved it, loved it. THe video that is. I also loved the English subtitle under the English. lol

  14. People, you must learn popultion genetics and haplogroups (Y and mt.DNA) Hungarians have average less asian haplogroup markers than slavic-speaking naions (Q and N1C1 haplogroups.) Balkan people have strong genetic ties also with midle-eastern peoples who settled in the Balkan 10,000 years ago (Haplogroup J and E1B1). Face the facts, Hungarians have lesser genetic herritage with eastern (mongoloid) genes than slavs and lesser ratio of middle-eastern genes than Balkan people.

  15. Paul :
    Funny then, how Hungarians don’t look Eastern. Most are Slavic in appearance, with a fair number of what look like northern European/Germanic.
    Even funnier that the only ones who look genuinely ‘eastern’ (geographically, at least) are the Roma.
    I wonder if the Fidesz-Jobbik nutters see the funny side of that?

    Roma don’t look Hungarian, but they can be Hungarians, but on the other hand, Hungarians don’t look Central Asians, and they can’t be Central Asians?
    Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

  16. Csaba :

    Roma don’t look Hungarian, but they can be Hungarians, but on the other hand, Hungarians don’t look Central Asians, and they can’t be Central Asians?
    Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

    Have you ever heard of DNA? Your ignorance is incredible.

  17. Why does everybody look for “Asian” markers in connection with Hungarians? Lets think about Tarim mummies. Surprisingly they belonged to “European” haplogroups in the Tarim Basin, China…..
    The majority of the peoples of Central Asia still belongs to “European” haplogroups. Ancient genetic make-up of the Hungarians and ethnogenesis of southern Finno-Ugric peoples are still debated. It is possible the Finno-Ugric peoples have partially “European” genetic origin (R1a1-z280 or R1a1-z93) beside the N1c1 (It also has “European” subclades)……

  18. Fakirbakir, Slavic people contain average higher ratio of asian (mongoloid) haplogroups. Despite of that, Slavs don’t want to identity themselves as Asians. Balkan people contain average higher ratio of middle-eastern haplogroups, despite of that they don’t want to identity themselves as middle-eastern people.

  19. Walker Texas :
    Fakirbakir, Slavic people contain average higher ratio of asian (mongoloid) haplogroups. Despite of that, Slavs don’t want to identity themselves as Asians. Balkan people contain average higher ratio of middle-eastern haplogroups, despite of that they don’t want to identity themselves as middle-eastern people.

    I just wanted to point out that Asian origin does not equal with “Asian” genetic origin. And actually Finno-Ugric peoples are native Eastern Europeans (in the sense of genetics as well).

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