Tribal meeting of the Turanians with Hungarian government support

It was two years ago that I wrote about a Turanian tribal meeting in Hungary. At that time a friend of mine sent me a link to a Hungarian-language paper published in Romania. The article he called my attention to was a detailed description of Kurultaj 2010, a three-day affair organized by the Hungarian-Turanian Foundation.

Those were the good old days. By now the fourth Turanian tribal meeting that is being held in Hungary starting today is a semi-official, government sponsored affair. One doesn’t have to go to an obscure Romanian website to read a description of  the event. Today, one of the Fidesz deputy speakers of the house is the sponsor of the tribal meeting and the Hungarian government is providing a generous grant of 70 million forints to the foundation to hold the gathering.

Last year apparently 150,000 people attended the affair, but this year the organizers are expecting 250,000. And while two years ago the delegations of 12 countries took part in the event, this year the number of participating countries is 25. The organizers expect forty newspapermen from Turkey alone. Ten countries’ television crews will also be present. The entertainment is being provided by 111 groups made up of people with an interest in early Hungarian history and customs.

Sándor Lezsák greets the visiting tribal leaders in parliament

The participants coming from abroad, allegedly relatives of the Hungarians, were greeted with great fanfare in parliament, in the chamber of the former upper house. Even the Foreign Ministry was represented by Ernő Keskeny, the head of the department dealing with Eastern Europe and Central Asia. He emphasized that “the organization of Kurultaj is in accord with the present government’s foreign policy strategy, the politics of opening toward the East, and it will surely contribute to its success.” Until now this event was associated exclusively with Jobbik, but it seems that the Hungarian government is now actively supporting this yearly gathering of  the Hungarian-Turanian Foundation.

There are two problems with Turanism. The first is that it is a completely bogus theory that has no scientific foundation. The second is that Hungarian Turanism is associated with Ferenc Szálasi’s Hungarism as well as the ideology of Jobbik.

The term “Turanian” was coined by Max Müller (1823-1900), a German orientalist. He called all languages that did not belong to the Indo-European or the Semitic language families Turanian. Linguistically it turned out to be a faulty theory, but “Turanian” continued to be used in a geopolitical sense for a while. Turan is the Persian name for Central Asia, and the original Turanians were an ancient Iranian tribe. Jobbik’s support of Iran can perhaps understood not only as a reflection of its anti-Semitism but also of its attachment to the idea of Turanism.

Turanian lands and people according to the Hungarian-Turanian Society

Turanism in Hungary became especially fashionable in far-right circles after World War I. They were disillusioned with the West because of the Treaty of Trianon and turned toward the East in search of new allies. Doesn’t that sound familiar? The most radical Turanians actually stressed the superiority of Eastern culture and race over the Caucasians of the West. Ferenc Szálasi was among those who believed in the existence of a Turanian-Hungarian race that also included Jesus Christ; this idea became a key part of his ideology of Hungarism.

Today Jobbik and its president are wholehearted supporters of Turanism and Pan-Turkism since Jobbik considers Hungarian to be a Turkic language. And it seems that the Hungarian government is ready to join ranks with Jobbik in supporting Turanism, thereby standing behind an absolutely unscientific theory. Two years ago I thought that Sándor Lezsák (Fidesz) might not be familiar with the history of Hungarian Turanism. By now, I am certain that he knows all about Turanism past and present and belongs to the extreme right of the party whose ideology includes a belief in Turanism. I would put László Kövér in the same category. With the “rehabilitation” of the Horthy regime comes a revitalization of Turanism. Where will this all lead? Certainly not back to Turan but perhaps out of the community of European nations in spirit and ideology.

90 comments

  1. Funny then, how Hungarians don’t look Eastern. Most are Slavic in appearance, with a fair number of what look like northern European/Germanic.

    Even funnier that the only ones who look genuinely ‘eastern’ (geographically, at least) are the Roma.

    I wonder if the Fidesz-Jobbik nutters see the funny side of that?

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  2. Mark my word, there will be Hungarian citizenship given out shortly based on DNA. It will be printed on dogskin and each recipient will also receive a leather bound Basic Law, and a registration card for voting. Hungary will set up voting stations from Uyguristan to Lappland in 2014. In 2013 Orban will have some scuffle with the EU as he will make a speech about how the foreign-hearted Turks pushed us back from lands that still belongs to early Hungarian tribes, hence to Hungary, and it is time for the USA and the EU to do something about this and stop wasting their time on such non-important issues as Syria for example.

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  3. Some1 :
    In 2013 Orban will have some scuffle with the EU as he will make a speech about how the foreign-hearted Turks pushed us back from lands that still belongs to early Hungarian tribes, hence to Hungary, and it is time for the USA and the EU to do something about this and stop wasting their time on such non-important issues as Syria for example.

    I think you are wrong. After all the Turks are also Hungarians. Thus they will also receive Hungarian citizenship. And this will be the way into the EU for Turkey (under the name of The Greatest Hungary). Minor modifications of history will be required, like the fights between Hungarians and Turks will be re-characterized as civil wars.

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  4. I went during the 90ies into the foyer of “Magyarok világszövetsége” in Budapest which was once the house of soviet culture. There was a fellow who sold books like one of Zajti about Jesus who was not Jewish and arrow cross propaganda about “világhóditók”.
    Nice to see the catholic Sándor Lezsák making propaganda for pre-Christian mythology.

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  5. Maybe a bit OT, but …

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1l_Tur%C3%A1n

    Turán Pál was a brilliant Jewish Hungarian mathematician, working with Erdős but famous in his own name. From his biography:
    http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/history/Biographies/Turan.html
    ” One might have expected that this brilliant young mathematician would have easily found a university position. However, this was far from the case since the severe discrimination against him because of his Jewish origins meant that he could not even obtain a post as a school teacher. In order to support himself financially, and give himself the chance to continue his mathematical researches, he had to make a living as a private mathematics tutor.”

    And things became worse – he was sent into one of those work camps in 1940 (!) but that probably saved his life …

    There is a very moving story about this frail man: Another worker in the camp called him and one of the guards heard the name “Turan” and asked if he was related to the famous mathematician … When he said “I am Paul Turan” the guard arranged for some lighter (office ?) work for him so he could go on doing mathematics and survived …

    Life is strange …

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  6. OH! Well it is the Cucumber season. These weirdos and loonies have to be given a free(ish) run to divert attention from the ‘nastiness’ coming from the Viktator’s maties.

    It has also re-awakened my interest in the Cumans as my late wife had ver Cumanish features.

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  7. Karl Pfeifer :
    Nice to see the catholic Sándor Lezsák making propaganda for pre-Christian mythology.

    That was explained to us by Kovach recently (indirectly), you must look at Hungarianism as a religion, then it starts to make sense (Holy Crown, membership based on belief…). Why these strong believers in Hungarianism also consider themselves Catholic, is an open question to me, but the hierarchy of their values clearly puts the nation first. It identifies Hungarians also firmly as Europeans as they have adopted specific European thought on the nation and the race.

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  8. Paul :
    Funny then, how Hungarians don’t look Eastern. Most are Slavic in appearance, with a fair number of what look like northern European/Germanic.
    Even funnier that the only ones who look genuinely ‘eastern’ (geographically, at least) are the Roma.
    I wonder if the Fidesz-Jobbik nutters see the funny side of that?

    Sorry to doubt your last remark: If there is one characteristics of Fidesz’ leading members, it is the absolute lack of a sense of humor.

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  9. It is off-topic, just some addendum.

    As far as I know, turanism does not have only extreme-right roots. Before the I World War, for example, the leader of the Turanist Association was Mihály Károlyi, other leaders/members were the famous jewish scholars Ignác Goldziher and Ármin Vámbéry.

    The turanism was based upon the notion that the Hungarians came from East. In 1235 king Béla IV. sent monks to find the other Hungarians, who did not participate in the foundation of the Hungarian Kingdom. According to monk Julianus, he found them. It is another source to Hungarian Turanism.

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  10. Rettegő Iván :
    The turanism was based upon the notion that the Hungarians came from East. In 1235 king Béla IV. sent monks to find the other Hungarians, who did not participate in the foundation of the Hungarian Kingdom. According to monk Julianus, he found them. It is another source to Hungarian Turanism.

    I do not think anyone on this blog questions of have a problem with people studying Hungarian origins. THe problem we are having is the importance that Fidesz and Jobbik puts on this issue. It is in an interesting subject but for the government to flip over a quarter million euros to have a conference about it in this economy is a ‘bit strange.
    We were also surprised to hear how welcoming the Fidesz and Jobbik are to the idea (facts) of having all sorts of different blood circling the true Hungarian human’s bloodstream, while they are clearly having problems with Jewish, Romany, Chinese and with other variations.
    I did eloquently asked Mr Kovach at some point, who would he consider True Hungarian (Kovach is the perfect sample of the supporter of Orban/Jobbik Hungarian nation) and his answer were very much aligned with what the Jobbik and probably Orban wants to this true nation.
    The question remains, why is it important to spend this money and propaganda on this issue, when what Hungary really needs at this point is some form of unity amongst the Hungarians who they have, and who is Hungarian?
    Maybe you want to provide us with your own answer as we already have Mr Kovach’s, and I personally would be interested to hear everyone’s point of view.

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  11. Kirsten :

    Karl Pfeifer :
    Nice to see the catholic Sándor Lezsák making propaganda for pre-Christian mythology.

    That was explained to us by Kovach recently (indirectly), you must look at Hungarianism as a religion, then it starts to make sense (Holy Crown, membership based on belief…). Why these strong believers in Hungarianism also consider themselves Catholic, is an open question to me, but the hierarchy of their values clearly puts the nation first. It identifies Hungarians also firmly as Europeans as they have adopted specific European thought on the nation and the race.

    Perhaps it’s the sneaky Catholic Church’s attempt to ally itself…and, ever so modestly, present itself as second in importance to the nationalist aspirations…?

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  12. I don’t really understand this blood issue. What is the meaning of Kurultaj in this context?
    I don’t understand what Mr. Kovach thought about True Hungarians, I don’t understand this notion itself. I don’t really understand why this issue would bring division amongst the Hungarians.

    This Kurultaj thing is about geopolitics: Hungary needs Central-Asian, etc markets and raw materials, they need advanced technology. They picked up the notion of Hungarians’ distant origin, civic movements organised conferences (Kurultaj started 6 years ago, first conferences took place in distant countries, like Kazakhstan), Hungarian gvmnt built up a cultural diplomacy based on this. FIDESZ sees it as an investment to foster good economic relations. Hungarians actually came from the East, why not make advantage of it, just like the U.S. took advantage of its anticolonial past (“US. can’t be a neocolonist power, since it was a colony itself” – they say.) The oil to the EU comes from the region where the participants of the Kurultaj live. We have been there in that region since the 1970es. End of story.

    It’s a pity that this issue has extreme-right origins as well, and awakens bad feelings. But personally I don’t see this turanism as a tool to exterminate not turanian Hungarians.

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  13. Rettego Ivan: “This Kurultaj thing is about geopolitics: Hungary needs Central-Asian, etc markets and raw materials, they need advanced technology. They picked up the notion of Hungarians’ distant origin, civic movements organised conferences (Kurultaj started 6 years ago, first conferences took place in distant countries, like Kazakhstan), Hungarian gvmnt built up a cultural diplomacy based on this. FIDESZ sees it as an investment to foster good economic relations.”

    I’ll tell you what the problem with it. That it is unscientific and misleading.

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  14. Eva S. Balogh :
    Rettego Ivan: “This Kurultaj thing is about geopolitics: Hungary needs Central-Asian, etc markets and raw materials, they need advanced technology. They picked up the notion of Hungarians’ distant origin, civic movements organised conferences (Kurultaj started 6 years ago, first conferences took place in distant countries, like Kazakhstan), Hungarian gvmnt built up a cultural diplomacy based on this. FIDESZ sees it as an investment to foster good economic relations.”
    I’ll tell you what the problem with it. That it is unscientific and misleading.

    Eva S. Balogh :
    Rettego Ivan: “This Kurultaj thing is about geopolitics: Hungary needs Central-Asian, etc markets and raw materials, they need advanced technology. They picked up the notion of Hungarians’ distant origin, civic movements organised conferences (Kurultaj started 6 years ago, first conferences took place in distant countries, like Kazakhstan), Hungarian gvmnt built up a cultural diplomacy based on this. FIDESZ sees it as an investment to foster good economic relations.”
    I’ll tell you what the problem with it. That it is unscientific and misleading.

    Raw materials from Karakhstan? You got me there.
    What would that be that they couldn’t get from European countries?
    Is this some usual Russian deviousness to tie Hungary in with far east gas and oil for which,
    of course, the Russians would be the middleman?

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  15. Jean P :

    What is the opinion of the Hungarian Academy of Science on the government promoting unscientific ideas?

    They don’t seem to worry or at least this is what I learned from a conversation yesterday with a turkologist. To summarize it. Yes, it is ridiculous but they can do whatever they want. As long as it doesn’t seep into the scientific community. I think he is wrong.

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  16. Eva S. Balogh :

    Jean P :
    What is the opinion of the Hungarian Academy of Science on the government promoting unscientific ideas?

    They don’t seem to worry or at least this is what I learned from a conversation yesterday with a turkologist. To summarize it. Yes, it is ridiculous but they can do whatever they want. As long as it doesn’t seep into the scientific community. I think he is wrong.

    The reaction of an ostrich. They should learn form the Ceausescu experience, his wife, who supposedly graduated from elementary school, had herself elected into the Romanian Academy of Science and practically took it over. The way Orban and his clique go, something similar would not surprise me.

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  17. I am so glad that anything that has to do with Hungarian history brings out the obvious hatred in many blog acolytes with a good mixture of ignorance.

    First of all, to my knowledge’ nobody is forcing anybody to be a Hungarian in Hungary. If you feel that you are a “guest” there at least have some respect for the majorities customs and beliefs. Every (well almost every) nation has a history which is in some cases loaded with myths. Nobody denies Asiam origins of the Hungarians who occupied the Carpathian basin. Do not go for contrary references to recent books, there are a good amount of contemporary Greek, Persian, Arab writings about those days. I trust those more than a 1980 book referencing a 1910 book referencing an 1860 book without original sources given.

    Lots of culturally useful items came out of Asia including from the areas where supposedly Hungarians also originated. Tamed horses, the wheel, wagons, etc. and the proofs for those are not in Hungarian propaganda. As an example wheeled transport originated at the Ural/Volga region and spread from there both to the West through the Carpathian basin and directly South toward the Middle East.

    The current population of Hungary is mixed from the getgo with Khazars, Avars. Cumans, Jazigs and Alans and all of those folks also had relations in other places which were mixed up first by the Mongols and later by Slavs but all of them originated in Asia.

    You can visit places like “Uyguristan” where you would think you are in a Hungarian village. Tulip motifs on embroidered pillows piled high on beds in the clean room, tokany (like Hungarian pre-paprika), palinka, konder, bogrefa, langos, pentatonic songs, and so on.

    There is no reason to deride these folks just because somebody claims Afro/Asian or Schwabian or whatever other “to them” superior to the Hungarian heritage.

    The map attached to Dr Balogh’s diatribe shows most of the Finn/Ugors such as the Komi, Mari and Udmurt folks also, whose grammar is about as close to Hungarian as anything can be in addition to many basic vocabularies also.

    For some folks everything about which they are ignorant looks “unscientific”…….

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  18. Louis Kovach, have you heard already of the 21st century? Perhaps a calender could be of great use to check the relevance of what you write. Have you already heard of the concept of a nation and how old that concept is in the interpretation that you use?

    ” there are a good amount of contemporary Greek, Persian, Arab writings about those days. I trust those more than a 1980 book referencing a 1910 book referencing an 1860 book without original sources given.”

    Please do. But what makes you so sure that the original sources from the Greek, Persian and Arab writings are “original”? In your words: I am quite curious how you will prove that.

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  19. So here we are: the Hungarians invented the wheel. The only thing I don’t understand then: why didn’t they arrive in cars instead of riding horses? Maybe they were preparing for the Olympic games…

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  20. GDFX: “Europe Between the Oceans: 9000 BC-AD 1000” by Barry Cunliffe 2008 by the Yale University Press.

    You may peruse it bewtween your Hungarian bashings. But please do not play Some1 with me, I did not say it was the Hungarians.

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  21. Louis Kovach :
    You may peruse it bewtween your Hungarian bashings. But please do not play Some1 with me, I did not say it was the Hungarians.

    I made it to Louis’ vocabulary!
    “play Some1” means, translating what is implied through previous comments (or actions) OR simplify the real message.

    For me by the way Louis the more important part of this blog entry was not that anyone is “forcing anybody to be a Hungarian ” quite the contrary, there are a selective group of Hungarians who they try to strip off the rights of those who lived and worked in Hungary for centuries and enriched Hungary. Many from the same group spends millions of forints to try to find something that shows Hungarians that we are not alone in this small planet, because we still have places where they paint “Tulip motifs” all over. Is this really that important for a country where anti-semite writers are embraced, where nazi supporters are receiving their own statues? THe problem here Louis are the priorities, and that a country should embrace what they have at first and spend money on promoting that versus spending money on finding the missing link.. By the way, because you just love to read… do you know that actually some of the natives in America are from Asia? Maybe we should invite them to Hungary to find out if we have the same Asian background. Imagine the happy world, where Asians, Native Americans and Hungarians can live in unity, of course without the gypsies, Jews and homosexuals. I do not even want to touch on the history of wheat, like eikorn and emmer (and I know a lot about wheats and their history).

    p.s Louis, Do you remember how you love my misspellings? You wrote Asiam instead of Asian, and bewtween instead of between.

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  22. Louis Kovach :
    GDFX: “Europe Between the Oceans: 9000 BC-AD 1000″ by Barry Cunliffe 2008 by the Yale University Press.
    You may peruse it bewtween your Hungarian bashings. But please do not play Some1 with me, I did not say it was the Hungarians.

    I don’t play with people like you.

    It is not “Hungarian bashing”, just stupid-Hungarian bashing. Or are you claiming that there are no stupid Hungarians ?

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  23. In Bugac Fidesz pretends to take out the wind of Jobbik sails. But in reality it is preparing already now a possible coalition Orbán-Vona.

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  24. Karl Pfeifer :
    In Bugac Fidesz pretends to take out the wind of Jobbik sails. But in reality it is preparing already now a possible coalition Orbán-Vona.

    I think so too. When Orban moved to the right from the left in order to remain a “player” he had no idea how much right he has to move in order to remain in power. It is not about his personal beliefs no more, it is about what will keep him in the game.

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  25. gdfxx: “It is not “Hungarian bashing”, just stupid-Hungarian bashing. Or are you claiming that there are no stupid Hungarians ?”

    No, I do not, there are very good examples right here on this blog.

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  26. Louis Kovach :
    Some1: “p.s Louis, Do you remember how you love my misspellings? You wrote Asiam instead of Asian, and bewtween instead of between.”
    You are better than a spell checker.

    lol Finally you made me smile in a good way.

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  27. Louis Kovach :

    gdfxx: “It is not “Hungarian bashing”, just stupid-Hungarian bashing. Or are you claiming that there are no stupid Hungarians ?”

    No, I do not, there are very good examples right here on this blog.

    If you don’t stop insulting people active on this list you will not be welcome here.

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  28. A bit late in the day, but I’m surprised no one has pointed out that many million Americans believe that the Jewish creation myth is absolute truth, and do not want “unproven theories” like evolution taught to their kids in school.

    Dangerous stupid people are by no means limited to Hungary.

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  29. Paul :
    A bit late in the day, but I’m surprised no one has pointed out that many million Americans believe that the Jewish creation myth is absolute truth, and do not want “unproven theories” like evolution taught to their kids in school.
    Dangerous stupid people are by no means limited to Hungary.

    I wouldn’t call them dangerous, and the whole world is full of them. So what? In the US at least you don’t get stoned or hanged if you disagree with them. Actually, a recent survey showed that a large majority of the population would vote for an atheist President.

    But this blog is about Hungary, isn’t it?

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  30. gdfxx :

    Eva S. Balogh :

    Jean P :
    What is the opinion of the Hungarian Academy of Science on the government promoting unscientific ideas?

    They don’t seem to worry or at least this is what I learned from a conversation yesterday with a turkologist. To summarize it. Yes, it is ridiculous but they can do whatever they want. As long as it doesn’t seep into the scientific community. I think he is wrong.

    The reaction of an ostrich. They should learn form the Ceausescu experience, his wife, who supposedly graduated from elementary school, had herself elected into the Romanian Academy of Science and practically took it over. The way Orban and his clique go, something similar would not surprise me.

    The president of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Joszef Palinkas, who in 2006 was
    elected MP for Fidesz and was minister of education between 1998 and 2002, said at the opening of the 183rd General Assembly of the Academy this year:

    . . it is unrealistic to expect science to solve all problems, but ignoring science would be a fatal mistake.

    Did he warn the politicians against ignoring science in their acts and declarations, thereby misleading people, or did he just worry about the Academy budget?

    http://mta.hu/news_and_views/success-and-responsibility-the-183rd-general-assembly-of-the-hungarian-academy-of-sciences-129832/

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  31. Ironically, the Hungarian Turanism had jewish roots, due to the fact that their first advocators and propagandists had jewish roots in the 19th century. The unscientific turanian origin theory is 100% similar (or the same) to the opinion and ideas of romanian serbian slovakian hungarophobe extremists about the origin of Hungarians. :))))))))))))

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  32. Louis Kovach They mongolid people are similar cousins of Hungarians than the Australoid or the african black people. Turanism is a laughable unscientific religion.

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  33. You know, Paul, I am sick and tired of people calling Hungarians Europeans, and using Germanic looking people who have only been in the country for a few generations as examples of what Hungarians look like today. It is a misrepresentation of my people, and an outright denial of our history and spiritual beliefs. Every single person in my family is DISTINCTLY Turanian/Eurasian looking. We have olive skin, almond shaped eyes and thick black hair. We did NOT intermarry with Europeans, or the Roma, and we resent being told constantly that this Turanian ideology is stupid and far-fetched.
    If my family (like many other Hun families) is so European, why am I constantly asked by strangers if I have Chinese ancestry? Why have I been mistaken for Native American by ACTUAL NATIVE AMERICANS? If this concept of a shared Turanian ancestry is a load of bull, I’d like an explanation for my physical appearance and affinity for the cultures of the Steppe. For the record, when people ask my ethnicity, I say that I am a Hun and leave it at that. I am not white OR yellow, but am proudly inbetween. Your cynicism is tedious.

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  34. totallybogan :
    You know, Paul, I am sick and tired of people calling Hungarians Europeans

    I AM European. My paternal granny was Swiss. She still spoke German. On my mother’s side I have a big crowd. Gipsy and Jewish grand-grand-parents. Slovaks on one branch. My mother’s father was a blue eyed German looking kid. He never knew who his father was. His “official” father was doing time for counterfeiting money and the dates just didn’t add up. O, well. Tough times at the turn of the century. Now I added a lot more Slavs and Gipsies to the pot by marrying my other half.

    But first of all I am Hungarian. Gee, where’s my horse …

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  35. totallybogan :
    why am I constantly asked by strangers if I have Chinese ancestry? Why have I been mistaken for Native American by ACTUAL NATIVE AMERICANS?

    I just want to say that I was the first one who pointed out that Orban will soon extend Hungarian Citizenship to the natives of North America and provide them with voting rights in the Hungarian elections. I would extend my prediction with Orban providing a pig to each native households in north America. every house. I would not be surprised if the true Hungarians are also working on a petition to reclaim the lands taken from their brothers by the French and English in North America.

    totalallyboagn I would be happy to pay for your genetical testing, if you are willing to disclose the full results with us. I am not kidding. it is not about, if you have Jewish blood, more so about what blood do you have, like Turkish, Slavic, Romani, etc. Let me know.

    If anyone can provide me with a link to a testing lab in Hungary I will arrange the payment. Honest.

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    1. We are NOT Roma, a suggestion I find offensive. We are not Slavs. Why do I need genetic testing? I know who I am, and where my family is from. We are also not Semitic. I tell you I am Hungarian and not Germanic or Roma in appearance. Why is this so difficult to believe? And for the record, I live in Australia, and it is HERE that people have questioned my ethnicity. All I am saying is that we exist.

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  36. totallybogan :
    We are NOT Roma, a suggestion I find offensive. We are not Slavs. Why do I need genetic testing? I know who I am, and where my family is from. We are also not Semitic. I tell you I am Hungarian and not Germanic or Roma in appearance. Why is this so difficult to believe? And for the record, I live in Australia, and it is HERE that people have questioned my ethnicity. All I am saying is that we exist.

    Now seriously, is your family from the Alfold? Just curious. Your description of your family fits pretty well of the description of the part of my family that lives in the “Kunsag”. Btw, I think “kuns” were Turkic people.

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  37. An: “Now seriously, is your family from the Alfold? Just curious. Your description of your family fits pretty well of the description of the part of my family that lives in the “Kunsag”. Btw, I think “kuns” were Turkic people.”

    And where do you think the Turkic folks came from??? Patagonia???? Asia of course.

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    1. My father has roots in the Alfold, yes. Funnily enough, my father is a chef, and has worked in in a Japanese restaurant here in Australia. During his initial interview he asked the manager if his not being Japanese was going to be an issue. The response? Australian customers wouldn’t be able to tell by looking at him. So there you go. Puts any suggestion of Semitic, Roma or Germanic heritage to rest in my opinion. There ARE Hungarians of central Asian origin- I just fail to see why the idea is such a big deal and open to debate. People really need to get lives.

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  38. totallybogan :
    We are NOT Roma, a suggestion I find offensive. We are not Slavs. Why do I need genetic testing? I know who I am, and where my family is from. We are also not Semitic. I tell you I am Hungarian and not Germanic or Roma in appearance. Why is this so difficult to believe? And for the record, I live in Australia, and it is HERE that people have questioned my ethnicity. All I am saying is that we exist.

    Yes. I know you know. THis is exactly what Csanad Szegedi said and believed, at leastuntil three years ago.

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  39. Louis Kovach :
    An: “Now seriously, is your family from the Alfold? Just curious. Your description of your family fits pretty well of the description of the part of my family that lives in the “Kunsag”. Btw, I think “kuns” were Turkic people.”
    And where do you think the Turkic folks came from??? Patagonia???? Asia of course.

    I do not see where An said that hey are not from Asia. Can you point me to it?
    By the way for those of you who support the religious references of our government and the supreme right about living according to God and so forth according to the bible we are all from Adam and Eve.
    Now, if you do not want to follow the bible, where do you think Humans came from Lewis Kovach and totallybogan????? The Arctic????? Africa of course. Some ended up in Eurasia, Australia and Americas in the last 150,0000 up too 10,000 years ago. (modern humans are from 70,0000 years ago) From Eurasia of course they were settling here and there when from hunters-gatherers (nomads), and the list goes on. So what is the cut off line to call ourselves Hungarians. 2,000, 1,000, 10,000 years? I am keen to hear you responses between selecting the Bible scenario as good Christians, or the evolution theory. If you select the evolution theory, I would love to hear the cut-off time for be a true Hungarian.

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  40. Louis Kovach :
    An: “Now seriously, is your family from the Alfold? Just curious. Your description of your family fits pretty well of the description of the part of my family that lives in the “Kunsag”. Btw, I think “kuns” were Turkic people.”
    And where do you think the Turkic folks came from??? Patagonia???? Asia of course.

    You are funny, Louis Kovach. Of course Turkic people came from Asia. So did Finno-Ugric people…. in fact, they traveled together for a long time, and mixed…and then Hungarians settled and mixed some more….Of course,after all the mixing, there are Turkic features in some Hungarians, just as there are Slavic, Germanic, Gypsy, Jewish features…..not to mention all those ethnic groups that were in the Carpathian basin when Hungarians arrived. To claim that somebody is “pure Hungarian” is just ridiculous.

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  41. Sopme1: “I am keen to hear you responses between selecting the Bible scenario as good Christians, or the evolution theory. If you select the evolution theory, I would love to hear the cut-off time for be a true Hungarian.”

    Of course from Storkland! You think you were found in a cabbage patch???

    For answer for the last 12,000 years in Europe, I refer you to “Europe Between the Oceans: 9000 BC-AD 1000”
    by Barry Cunliffe

    A quote from the description “Europe is, in world terms, a relatively minor peninsula attached to the Eurasian land mass. Yet it became one of the most innovative regions on the planet, generating restless adventurers who traversed the globe to trade, to explore, and often to settle. By the fifteenth century Europe was a driving world force, but the origins of its success have until now remained obscur….”

    IMHO, it is best description of development in Europe combining archeology, meteorology, geography and written sources for the development of Europe and you will find that not only folks, but many critical inventions, ideas also cam from Asia to Europe.

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  42. Louis Kovach :
    Sopme1: “I am keen to hear you responses between selecting the Bible scenario as good Christians, or the evolution theory. If you select the evolution theory, I would love to hear the cut-off time for be a true Hungarian.”
    Of course from Storkland! You think you were found in a cabbage patch???
    For answer for the last 12,000 years in Europe, I refer you to “Europe Between the Oceans: 9000 BC-AD 1000″
    by Barry Cunliffe
    A quote from the description “Europe is, in world terms, a relatively minor peninsula attached to the Eurasian land mass. Yet it became one of the most innovative regions on the planet, generating restless adventurers who traversed the globe to trade, to explore, and often to settle. By the fifteenth century Europe was a driving world force, but the origins of its success have until now remained obscur….”
    IMHO, it is best description of development in Europe combining archeology, meteorology, geography and written sources for the development of Europe and you will find that not only folks, but many critical inventions, ideas also cam from Asia to Europe.

    “Storkland”? No kidding you have issues. You cannot even a clear, precise answer. You beat around the bush, because you are trapped in your own idiocracy.
    I for one do not believe in Storkland and Cabbage Patch or Adam and Eva, but I guess I am just more mature to talk about this subject. Why Jews and gypsies are fighting for their acceptance as Hungarian with scums like Jobbik and true Hungarisn, you make fun of this. I despise you.
    Did anyone say that critical inventions did not came from Asia? WHere did the Asians came from Louis? WHere the Jews came from?
    You totally loosing it now.

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  43. “Some1″ “WHere the Jews came from?
    You totally loosing it now.”
    Louis Kovach:
    “The written records say Africa (Egypt) but it is not a requirement to believe national mythologies.”
    Thank you. So according to science all humans are from Africa. Yes even the Asians and the Native Americans started their march there. Hence if you believe in science you must believe that Jews, Hungarians and Asians too connected by our African anchestors. Either that Luiis or Adam and Eve.

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  44. An :

    Louis Kovach :
    An: “Now seriously, is your family from the Alfold? Just curious. Your description of your family fits pretty well of the description of the part of my family that lives in the “Kunsag”. Btw, I think “kuns” were Turkic people.”
    And where do you think the Turkic folks came from??? Patagonia???? Asia of course.

    You are funny, Louis Kovach. Of course Turkic people came from Asia. So did Finno-Ugric people…. in fact, they traveled together for a long time, and mixed…and then Hungarians settled and mixed some more….Of course,after all the mixing, there are Turkic features in some Hungarians, just as there are Slavic, Germanic, Gypsy, Jewish features…..not to mention all those ethnic groups that were in the Carpathian basin when Hungarians arrived. To claim that somebody is “pure Hungarian” is just ridiculous.

    Gypsy people are in europe only for 600 years, they came from India. It was close to impossible a marriage with a gypsy or jewish people before the 20th century. However balkan people (romanians serbs bugarians etc…) mixed with turks gypsies etc. (It is proved by genetiics too) that’s why Balkan-people have average darker pigmentation (eye hair color)

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  45. Some1 :
    “Some1″ “WHere the Jews came from?
    You totally loosing it now.”
    Louis Kovach:
    “The written records say Africa (Egypt) but it is not a requirement to believe national mythologies.”
    Thank you. So according to science all humans are from Africa. Yes even the Asians and the Native Americans started their march there. Hence if you believe in science you must believe that Jews, Hungarians and Asians too connected by our African anchestors. Either that Luiis or Adam and Eve.

    It is not a logical reasoning. It is meaningless in every discussion that people came from africa. Moreover: I believe that all people developed from the same ancient monkey-like creatures. But!!! It doesn’t mean that all people are equal in IQ or all people have the same knowledge capabilities and talents etc.,…

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  46. Realities :

    Some1 :
    “Some1″ “WHere the Jews came from?
    You totally loosing it now.”
    Louis Kovach:
    “The written records say Africa (Egypt) but it is not a requirement to believe national mythologies.”
    Thank you. So according to science all humans are from Africa. Yes even the Asians and the Native Americans started their march there. Hence if you believe in science you must believe that Jews, Hungarians and Asians too connected by our African anchestors. Either that Luiis or Adam and Eve.

    It is not a logical reasoning. It is meaningless in every discussion that people came from africa. Moreover: I believe that all people developed from the same ancient monkey-like creatures. But!!! It doesn’t mean that all people are equal in IQ or all people have the same knowledge capabilities and talents etc.,…

    OK, so all people came form the same monkey like creatures wherever they were in Africa or Neverland. The point is that we came from the same smudge, gypsies, Jews or Hungarians. THe only differences are that we are either from Adam and Eve or from the same monkey like creatures, and what defines us as Jews, gypsies, African Americans or Hungarians is taking the left path versus the right or going straight with our fellow monkey like creatures and ending with to much sun here and there, choosing different God like creatures or not. SO what is the cut off time for being true Hungarian?
    I would recommend everyone to read THe New Definition of the Hungarian Nation by the Hungarian World Congress (at least for a good laugh).
    http://egipatrona.hu/mvsz/index.php/2012-08-07-14-36-54/a-magyar-nemzet-uj-meghatarozasa
    According to them if you do not believe in God as defined by by the Roman Catholicism, you are out. ” A magyar nép olyan történelmi gyökerekkel rendelkező közösség, amelynek tagjai azonos módon viszonyulnak teremtő, mindenható Istenükhöz és természeti környezetükhöz”.

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  47. London Calling!

    Neverland?

    Yea! Now I understand Michael Jackson was a Hungarian?

    Now I understand! Makes sense.

    If he’s a Hungarian – then I’m a Dutchman.

    Of course ‘Hungarianism’ in a Central Europe context in a landlocked country with many other ‘tribes’ all around would have mixed the DNA like a soup.

    How can anyone say that their ‘tribe’ never ‘inter-married’?

    That’s off the wall! (see what I did there?)

    That’s pure Hungarian thinking!

    Eh?

    Better melt away

    (Taking it back to the big bang – we could well have one atom of hydrogen in one finger – from one planet – and another atom of hydrogen from another planet in the another finger. Now square that with ‘Pure Hungarianism’!)

    Tot ziens!

    Charlie

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  48. Nobody claimed that Michael Jackson was Hungarian. Where are you inventing this rubbish from. If you are trying to make is look foolish, it’s backfiring, because that statement made you look really, really stupid.

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  49. London Calling!

    Totallybogus:

    ‘Some1’ said Michael Jackson was a Turanian?

    Read back.

    Well he conflated ‘African’ with ‘Neverland’ – but I knew what me meant!

    That’s the only thing I could make sense of in this thread?

    Regards

    Charlie

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  50. London Calling!

    I just need a little help with my ‘Michael-Jackson-Was-A-Turanian’ theory.

    He certainly had almond shaped eyes – when we could see them of course.

    And he had olive skin (well most of the time) and black hair. OK not white skin or yellow – but maybe in between? (And he was certainly a proud in-betweener if you catch my drift!)

    And of course no one would have dared calling him an European (he was not a cheese eating surrender monkey!)

    The problem I have is with the nose?

    What shape is a typical Turanian nose?

    I know I’ll have problems when I find a typical example – because we know he had quite a few problems in that area – but I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it!

    Your help would be appreciated!

    Regards

    Charlie

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  51. Charlie, just read this for a start (and a good laugh – but only if you’re in the mood …)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Turanism

    And if you’re in another mood, maybe this might help:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Turan
    “The Curse of Turan (Hungarian: Turáni átok) is a belief that Hungarians have been under the influence of a malicious spell for many centuries. The “curse” manifests itself as inner strife, pessimism, misfortune and several historic catastrophes.”

    Still I wonder why some Hungarian Jews had the name “Turan” – like the famous mathematician …

    PS: There also was a Hungarian tank called Turan in WW2:

    The Turan was employed by the 1st and 2nd Hungarian Armored Divisions, as well as the 1st Cavalry Division, in 1943 and 1944. Both types were hopelessly outclassed by the Soviet’s superior T-34 and IS-2 tanks.

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  52. Realities :

    An :

    Louis Kovach :
    Gypsy people are in europe only for 600 years, they came from India. It was close to impossible a marriage with a gypsy or jewish people before the 20th century. However balkan people (romanians serbs bugarians etc…) mixed with turks gypsies etc. (It is proved by genetiics too) that’s why Balkan-people have average darker pigmentation (eye hair color)

    My understanding is that the Gypsies were slaves in Romania until the end of the XIX century. This makes intermarriages unlikely.

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  53. @gdfxx and @realities: Yes, gypsies were slaves in Romania but not in Hungary. Yes, intermarriages were and still very rare (both in Hungary and in Romania).

    I still contend that Hungarians are a mixed brunch, see my earlier post on that. My family is German on the one side and Slav, with some possibly “Kun” on the other side. Also, there are rumors in the family of having gypsy and Jewish in the line somewhere… though that may be just family folklore… no evidence that I know of.

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  54. @ CharlieH (London Calling) Maybe you should read a little more about what our true Hungarians claim. My whole point is that if you anyone tales it remotely serious who the true Hungarians supposed to be, then they should go back all the way to Adam and Eve if they are religious or back to Africa where the human species came from. THe whole idea of proposing that Hungarians are related to Asians certainly true but if we move back on the timeline Hungarians also related to all races that came form Africa.
    Sorry that you had a hard time to follow this thread, but the whole idea of celebrating our Turanian roots and embracing our Turanian heritage is full of garbage in a time when Hungary cannot even properly celebrate its diverse culture.
    Neverland is also puts Kovach’s storkland into perspective.
    PLease also read the Hungarians World Congress’ New Definition of the Hungarian Nation, that according to them clearly spells out how far we supposed to go back to be considered to be true Hungarians and who is a true Hungarian. It is a shameful blurb that makes as much sense as much sense the whole fascination with being a true Hungarian means that you marched wit the Hungarian tribes between a certain period. Anything before and anything after just bot count according to them.

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  55. One more note on the mixing…. my uncle married a Jewish woman, and when I was born, my catholic parents asked them to be my godparents. Both my uncle and his wife agreed, so my godmother is in fact Jewish…. I really don’t know why she agreed to this, but I think it’s pretty funny.

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  56. An :
    One more note on the mixing…. my uncle married a Jewish woman, and when I was born, my catholic parents asked them to be my godparents. Both my uncle and his wife agreed, so my godmother is in fact Jewish…. I really don’t know why she agreed to this, but I think it’s pretty funny.

    I decided to look up the origin of the word “godparent”, where else, in Wikipedia. I did this because in Hungarian the word is even more Christian than in English, literally it translates as “parent of the cross”. The Wikipedia article sounds interesting (although I have no idea how accurate it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godparent ), and I see that the Catholic Church is quite restrictive even today as of who can fulfill this role.

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  57. This has gotten ridiculous. Talk about degenerating into babble. Some1 and Charlie, go stir your shit somewhere else. All this Michael Jackson nonsense isn’t even funny. Nobody claimed he was Turanian, talk about stupidity. You sound like children. Get over yourselves. This is a topic that is important to many people. Show some respect.

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  58. totallybogan :
    This has gotten ridiculous. Talk about degenerating into babble. Some1 and Charlie, go stir your shit somewhere else. All this Michael Jackson nonsense isn’t even funny. Nobody claimed he was Turanian, talk about stupidity. You sound like children. Get over yourselves. This is a topic that is important to many people. Show some respect.

    You get over yourself. I did not bring in Michael Jackson here, so learn ti read. I did not see you here to post here to often. or not by that name. You have no idea what my posts are referring to that is an old “conversation”with Kovach, where he refused to specify what is the cut off line for someone being considered to be real Hungarian. The whole point is that all Jews or gypsies who’s heritage in Hungary goes back by centuries are as much Hungarian as the stupid definition set by Kovach or the Hungarians’ World Congress’ New Definition of the Hungarian Nation or a stupid get together for Turanians. If you do not find that scary I feel sorry for you. If your whole input about how Hungarians celebrate their Asian roots while freely speech and teach anti-semitism, then your respect lies with those crappy organizations, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Hungarian Jews are more Hungarian then Asians who never even stepped on Hungarian soil. So totally bogan where is your loyalty lies with the Hungarian Jews and gyspies or wit the Asians and Turks who never stepped on Hungarin soil?

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    1. I have nothing against Jews, and at least I never denied their existence in Hungary. Tell me, however, what positive things Gypsies have done for ANY country they now live in. I have learnt the hard way not to trust one, so my sympathies will never be with them. As for Asians and Turks never setting foot on Hungarian land, are you kidding? Are you saying you see NO traces of their ancestry among at least SOME Hungarians at ALL? Because that’s about ALL I see when I look at MY Hungarian family. You don’t know me. Dont tell me my family’s roots. Is it so hard to believe that not all Hungarians are not Germanic, Roma or Semitic? If that is your own frame of reference, that is fair enough, but don’t tell me about mine. I suffer RACISM from Anglo Australians for my Eurasian appearance. Is THAT in my head, too?

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  59. p.s. I never connected Neverland to Michael Jackson (that was CharlieH). For me Neverland is connected t the idea of J. M. Barrie. If in any doubt, please do your research to figure out what it refers to.

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  60. London Calling!

    Some1 I owe you an apology. Sorry.

    I always read your posts and yes – I did get your point. I too am not a believer in the bible and you were generously making allowances for those who do.

    Regarding that just quickly – I find a blade of grass is a miracle – as is the universe – so I don’t need ‘Father Christmas’ type stories to seek refuge in. I am trying understand our existence that fits all the miracles of the universe.

    This link does my beliefs justice – so far – if you would do me the courtesy of having a look.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

    As regards ‘Turanism’ I was having fun! Eva’s post analyses it so succinctly – and Wolfi’s links adds to the mix – that Turanism is, in my view, a load of old codswallop.

    I have the confidence and satisfaction of knowing that I am English – there are no shades of Englishness, I am an Englishman – no less, or greater. I can look the world in the eye as such. I neither feel inferior or superior. I don’t need to reinforce my Englishness by finding false scientific evidence to show whether I am ‘Pure’ or not.

    Hungarians born in Hungary are Hungarian. There is no gradation. Most of the population believes this. There are no ‘pure’ or ‘impure’ Hungarians. Just as England is made up of Picts. Vikings, Saxons and other ‘tribes’ – then Hungarians (‘True’ Hungarians!) are made up of many tribes too. But they are all Hungarian!

    I did look at the site that tried to define ‘Hungarianism’ – from a Google translation. I am afraid to say that this is tilting at windmills – complete balderdash! I don’t think it would have made sense in a perfect translation either – but I got the gist.

    All this ‘True’ Hungarian balderdash (and yes ‘Turanism’ too) smacks of the Nazis who tried to define a true ‘Aryan’ race – complete bollocks of course.

    Hungary is a Nation of Peoples. Just get on and make it the best society for all. Where everyone is equal. It is hard enough to do that in a decent democratic society – which I believe England is close to – let alone a ‘democratic’ society that Hungary is supposed to be.

    Just do it and drop all this ‘pure’ crap.

    Regards

    Charlie

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  61. People, you must learn popultion genetics and haplogroups (Y and mt.DNA) Hungarians have average less asian haplogroup markers than slavic-speaking naions (Q and N1C1 haplogroups.) Balkan people have strong genetic ties also with midle-eastern peoples who settled in the Balkan 10,000 years ago (Haplogroup J and E1B1). Face the facts, Hungarians have lesser genetic herritage with eastern (mongoloid) genes than slavs and lesser ratio of middle-eastern genes than Balkan people.

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  62. Paul :
    Funny then, how Hungarians don’t look Eastern. Most are Slavic in appearance, with a fair number of what look like northern European/Germanic.
    Even funnier that the only ones who look genuinely ‘eastern’ (geographically, at least) are the Roma.
    I wonder if the Fidesz-Jobbik nutters see the funny side of that?

    Roma don’t look Hungarian, but they can be Hungarians, but on the other hand, Hungarians don’t look Central Asians, and they can’t be Central Asians?
    Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

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  63. Csaba :

    Roma don’t look Hungarian, but they can be Hungarians, but on the other hand, Hungarians don’t look Central Asians, and they can’t be Central Asians?
    Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

    Have you ever heard of DNA? Your ignorance is incredible.

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  64. Why does everybody look for “Asian” markers in connection with Hungarians? Lets think about Tarim mummies. Surprisingly they belonged to “European” haplogroups in the Tarim Basin, China…..
    The majority of the peoples of Central Asia still belongs to “European” haplogroups. Ancient genetic make-up of the Hungarians and ethnogenesis of southern Finno-Ugric peoples are still debated. It is possible the Finno-Ugric peoples have partially “European” genetic origin (R1a1-z280 or R1a1-z93) beside the N1c1 (It also has “European” subclades)……

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  65. Fakirbakir, Slavic people contain average higher ratio of asian (mongoloid) haplogroups. Despite of that, Slavs don’t want to identity themselves as Asians. Balkan people contain average higher ratio of middle-eastern haplogroups, despite of that they don’t want to identity themselves as middle-eastern people.

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  66. Walker Texas :
    Fakirbakir, Slavic people contain average higher ratio of asian (mongoloid) haplogroups. Despite of that, Slavs don’t want to identity themselves as Asians. Balkan people contain average higher ratio of middle-eastern haplogroups, despite of that they don’t want to identity themselves as middle-eastern people.

    I just wanted to point out that Asian origin does not equal with “Asian” genetic origin. And actually Finno-Ugric peoples are native Eastern Europeans (in the sense of genetics as well).

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