Armenia breaks off diplomatic relations with Hungary:       The Ramil Safarov affair

According to a seasoned former Hungarian diplomat, the Hungarian decision to extradite Lieutenant Ramil Safarov to Azerbaijan is “a much more serious scandal than it seems today.” Most likely he is right, although it took less then twenty-four hours for the case to receive worldwide attention and for Hungary to be condemned.

During the summer of  2004 NATO’s Partnership for Peace program organized a two-month program for officers from the member states in Budapest. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan joined the Partnership when it was established in 1994. The young officers were supposed to study English in the Hungarian capital. Ramil Safarov, an Azir national,  purchased an ax locally and at night when the Armenian officer, Gurgen Margaryan, was asleep he brutally hacked him into pieces. He practically severed the Armenian officer’s head.

During his trial Safarov freely admitted that the only reason for killing Margaryan was that he was an Armenian. He showed no remorse for his crime. In addition, while in jail he attacked the guards, for which he received two and a half years  in a separate trial. In 2006 the verdict was announced: he received a life sentence for premeditated murder. He has been in a Hungarian jail since.

The ethnic conflict between Azeris and Armenians is of long standing. The center of the conflict was a contested area, Nagorno-Karabakh, that during the Soviet period was artificially attached to the predominantly Muslim Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan in spite of the fact that the majority of the inhabitants were Christian Armenians. In 1988 war broke out between the two countries over the area; the war lasted almost six years and eventually ended in Armenia annexing the region. In 1994 a ceasefire was signed but peace talks have not been held. Thousands died on both sides, and  a huge demographic change occurred. About 230,000 Armenians from Azerbaijan and 800,000 Azeris from Armenia and Karabakh were displaced as a result of the conflict. Currently, Armenia’s population of about 3.5 million is 97% ethnic Armenian.

Ever since the sentencing of Ramil Safarov in 2006 the Azeris considered him to be a national hero, a fact that was well known to the Hungarian authorities. But if they hadn’t known it, the Armenians told them repeatedly in the last year or so. The warning intensified after Viktor Orbán visited the Azeri capital. Their worries must have been further heightened when Péter Szijjártó went to Baku to negotiate with the Azeris a month later.

I should mention here that Péter Szijjártó, who started off as a personal spokesman of Viktor Orbán, was elevated to be undersecretary in the prime minister’s office in charge of foreign affairs in June 2012. Thus, we can safely assume that Foreign Minister János Martonyi’s already meager role in the formation of Hungarian foreign relations has been further reduced. Now even foreign policy is directly conducted by Viktor Orbán. With questionable results, as we shall see.

Armenian President Serzh Sarkisyan breaks off
diplomatic relations with Hungary

What we can glean from the Armenian statements of late that the Hungarian government must have known what would happen if they released Safarov. According to the Armenian foreign ministry, they warned the Hungarian government, I assume through the Hungarian foreign ministry, that the Azerbaijani government sanctions the murder of the Armenian officer. The Hungarian government “on the highest level” assured the Armenians that “they will not take any steps that would lead to the freeing of the murderer.” Apparently that was the official Hungarian position “until the last minute.” According to Serzh Sarkisyan, the Armenian president,  “only a few days ago [they] were assured by the Hungarian foreign ministry and the speaker of the Hungarian parliament that “there was no way that they would hand over the criminal to Azerbaijan.”

Yet it happened. Safarov was released to Azerbaijan and was greeted as a national hero. On his arrival he was draped in the Azeri national flag and thousands of admirers presented him with flowers. He immediately received clemency from the Azeri president, Ilham Aliyev, and the minister of defense bestowed on him the rank of major.

Armenians are outraged. The government immediately decided to break off diplomatic relations with Hungary, and President Sakrisyan announced that “the Armenian nation will never forgive” Hungary for what happened. Normally the Armenians are not kidding.

Now the question is who knew what? Did the Hungarian foreign minister and the speaker of the Hungarian parliament lie when even in the last minute they claimed that there was no possibility of Hungary handing over Safarov to Baku? I venture to say that it is possible that in fact they didn’t know about the deal. Whether Tibor Navracsics lied–as his Armenian counterpart, Hrayr Tovmasyan, charged–is more likely, but I don’t exclude the possibility that he was assured byViktor Orbán about the Azeri president’s assurances.

But that Viktor Orbán knew about what would happen is certain. It was a “financial deal.” According to Armenpress, the official Armenian news agency, Hungary has been in serious negotiations with both Turkey and Azerbaijan for financial assistance for some time. The same news agency claims that Novruz Mammedov, the advisor to Ilham Aliyev on foreign affairs, has been engaged in secret negotiations concerning Safarov’s release to Azerbaijan for at least a year. According to widely held belief, the Azeris were ready to buy 3 billion euros worth of Hungarian bonds in exchange for the release of Safarov.

Immediately after the news broke of Safarov’s pardon the U.S. State Department released a press statement that read: The United States is extremely troubled by the news that the President of Azerbaijan pardoned Azerbaijani army officer Ramil Safarov, who returned to Baku today following his transfer from Hungary. Mr. Safarov had been serving a life sentence in a Hungarian jail for murdering Armenian officer Gurgen Margaryan during a 2004 NATO training event in Budapest. We are expressing our deep concern to Azerbaijan regarding this action and seeking an explanation. We are also seeking further details from Hungary regarding the decision to transfer Mr. Safarov to Azerbaijan.”

Even President Obama voiced his concern after the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA), a lobbyist group in Washington, called on him “to publicly condemn Hungary for the release of the terrorist” Safarov. At the same time ANCA called on people “to take a moment to protest this travesty of justice.” ANCA asked “to call, e-mail or post a facebook message to the Hungarian ambasador to the US, His Excellency György Szapáry”. Well, the letters poured in. Here are a few of the thousands. “Don’t sleep Hungary! It’s dangerous nowadays!,” a reference to the fact that the Armenian officer was killed in his sleep. Or, ” Shame on you Hungary, Hungary supports a murderer!!!! :(((,” or “Gurgen Margaryan’s blood on the hands of Hungarian Justice.” And they go on like this endlessly.

The Hungarian opposition’s reaction is also one of outrage. LMP expressed their sympathy with the Armenian people. LMP’s statement emphasized that it would have been the duty of the foreign ministry to warn the ministry of administration and justice of the most likely consequences of releasing the Azeri murderer. They expressed hope that there is no connection between Azeri plans to purchase Hungarian government bonds and the release of a criminal.

DK as usual was more forthright. The leadership of the party demanded Tibor Navracsics’s resignation and suggested that parliament immediately convene a meeting of the committee on foreign affairs. In addition, they expressed their opinion that “Viktor Orbán sold the honor of Hungary.” With the release of Safarov the government sent a message to the world that “Hungary is  a country where human life is for sale, where someone who kills another person is not a criminal but a hostage who is kept in jail to be released in the hope of ransom.”

László Kovács (MSZP), former foreign minister and currently deputy chairman of the parliamentary committee on foreign affairs, indicated that he will ask for an immediate meeting of the committee to discuss the matter of the release of the Azeri murderer. Kovács shares the widespread belief in opposition circles that Safarov was released in the hope of Azeri financial assistance to Hungary. However, Kovács considers the way that it was handled most unfortunate. The release should have been accompanied by Azeri guarantees so that, if the Azeri government violated the agreement, the Hungarian government could have immediately protested. But no Hungarian protest followed, which further strengthens the view that the Hungarian government knew full well what the Azeri government was planning to do as soon as Safarov arrives in Baku.

Today Fidesz released a statement that said only that the party fully supports the government on this issue since the transfer in no way contradicted international rules and regulations on extradition.  Gabriella Selmeczi, the spokeswoman of the party, cited the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons of 1983, which was later accepted by Hungary. Ramil Safarov, an Azeri citizen, asked for his transfer to Azerbaijan. Hungary only obliged.

A couple of hours later the ministry of foreign affairs and the ministry of administration and justice also released a statement. Although the statement emphasized that Hungary respects Christian Armenia and the culture and heritage of the Armenian people, it added that they regret Armenia’s decision to break off diplomatic relations with Hungary. This statement also referred to the 1983 Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons and righteously pointed out the absolutely legal way in which Hungary handled the transfer of Safarov.

Although I don’t think that either Foreign Minister János Martonyi or Minister of Justice Tibor Navracsics will resign as LMP and DK demanded, Martonyi without any prodding should do so. Orbán is making a clown out of him, and if he were a man of integrity he would have handed in his resignation a long time ago.

What will happen after this incident? Perhaps not much, but Viktor Orbán’s reputation will be further battered. And he is dragging the whole country after him into the abyss.

74 comments

  1. I was really shocked by the official statement, emphasising that “Hungary respects Christian Armenia.” What on earth has the religion of Armenia to do with this? That a Christian country is by implication more worthy than a Muslim one (I think that is the subtext)? It is another dismal indication of the intellect of these people.

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  2. I was thinking the same thing. What on earth were they thinking when they wrote this communiqué? Very likely they know that this affair is a shining example of the Orban government’s hypocrisy. They constantly claim to be the defenders of Christian values and try to impress practicing Christians in Hungary (ok, at least the ones they like). Especially on older generation this actually works. But now they sold one country for 30 pieces of silver so to speak – a Christian country with one of the most tragic history, the most suffering for their Christian views.

    Animals.

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  3. I do not understand the historically inconsistent “mentality” of this blog. It is acceptable for Armenia to occupy by force a non-adjacent territory where there was significant Armenian population, i.e. Nagarno Karabaklh, and expell almost a million Azeris from there. This would be analogous to Hungary occupying the Szekelyfold in Transylvania and expelling many Rumanians who reside there. Should I consider such action would be acceptable to the acolytes, because it follows the Armenian example???

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  4. The ‘Lockerbie’ theme is bound to come up in response to this story, but there are a number of important differences.

    Firstly, the Lockerbie story is (still) sensitive to a lot of US and UK people, and this tired old argument of ‘well, you should attack the UK government because they did bad stuff too, leave us alone’ is just kindergarten level, and irresponsible.

    Secondly, the Lockerbie case was a long protracted affair in the Scottish courts. Before he was eventually freed, there was very heated debate in the British media, and in parliament, with senior figures like Gordon Brown and William Hague speaking out against it. As far as I can tell, in Hungary, this extradition just ‘happened’ with no debate, and little forewarning. Even after the extradition, this story was treated as irrelevant by the state-controlled media outlets.

    Thirdly, the Lockerbie case may have caused international outrage and upset the Americans, but at least it didn’t ham-fistedly make the UK choose between two states which have been at each other’s throats for a hundred years.

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  5. Louis Kovach :
    It is acceptable for Armenia to occupy by force a non-adjacent territory where there was significant Armenian population, i.e. Nagarno Karabaklh,

    Kovach, Google a little more about the Armenian history. You jumped in too late in the timeline … kind of weird from a staunch anti-communist to ignore a few relevant parts.

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  6. Louis Kovach, the issue here is not the behavior of either country during their conflict, it is the fact that an Azeri citizen killed a human being on Hungarian soil with an ax, and that this criminal has, effectively, been released into freedom after only a little more than seven years behind bars, and that this release appears to have been purchased. Regardless of the politics or the pre-history of the states involved, no country, including Hungary, can tolerate ax murderers, and no justice system can tolerate the political scuttling of its penal system in this way.

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  7. Louis Kovach, you are being sly as usual. Nobody on this blog is taking sides in the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict… the story we are commenting on is a murder case that took place on Hungarian soil, where, to my knowledge, such a crime is punishable with the full force of law. The murderer was convicted in Hungarian court, yet, the government decides to hand the guy over to Azerbaijan where he gets pardoned… Now, there are only two options here: 1) the Hungarian government fully knew that he’ll be pardoned, 2) they believed the Azeri reassurances that he will serve his time in Azerbaijan. Well, option 1) is beyond despicable, and 2) is simply idiotic.

    At the same time, Hungary is planning to issue bonds for Azeri investors…..You don’t see anything morally questionable here? We talk about a simple murder case, not about taking sides in the Azeri-Armenian conflict.

    And, in the mean time, while all these negotiations were going on with the Azeris, the Hungarian government kept reassuring the Armenians that the guy won’t be handed over to the Azeris… what do you think of that?

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  8. I just wanted to post, how I would love to read how our own morally bankrupt Kovach will find a way to justify to make a hero out of an axemurderer. Then there it was, his total BS hogwash. He obviously missed from the story, under what circumstances this barbaric act taken place. It was in a NATO convention, not on the battlefield or in their own country. I guess according to Kovach’s logic terrorism is totally justified by the cause. I would be scared to even sit in the same restaurant with Kovach., as I think actually he is a danger to society, a ticking timebonb just waiting to explode. I honestly think that he and Orban need professional help.

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  9. “What will happen after this incident?”

    Well, if he gets his 3Bn Euros, Orbán will just carry on – even more convinced that he is right and that his ‘unorthodox’ policies are working.

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  10. Bowen :
    The ‘Lockerbie’ theme is bound to come up in response to this story, but there are a number of important differences.
    Firstly, the Lockerbie story is (still) sensitive to a lot of US and UK people, and this tired old argument of ‘well, you should attack the UK government because they did bad stuff too, leave us alone’ is just kindergarten level, and irresponsible.
    Secondly, the Lockerbie case was a long protracted affair in the Scottish courts. Before he was eventually freed, there was very heated debate in the British media, and in parliament, with senior figures like Gordon Brown and William Hague speaking out against it. As far as I can tell, in Hungary, this extradition just ‘happened’ with no debate, and little forewarning. Even after the extradition, this story was treated as irrelevant by the state-controlled media outlets.
    Thirdly, the Lockerbie case may have caused international outrage and upset the Americans, but at least it didn’t ham-fistedly make the UK choose between two states which have been at each other’s throats for a hundred years.

    Bowen is, as usual, talking sense.

    But there’s another aspect to the Lockerbie case, and one that makes it even less relevant. It’s fairly unlikely that the man jailed for the bombing actually had anything to do with it, he was almost certainly just a scape-goat handed over by Libya to take the heat off.

    At the time of his release, as Bowen says, there was a great deal of discussion over the case. But much of that discussion in the UK was underpinned by doubts that this man should have been in jail to start with. Many people’s attitude was “why not let him go home to die, he probably didn’t do it anyway”.

    Unfortunately, the British government is under so much pressure from the US over Lockerbie, that it’s very difficult to see the wood for the trees or to even ask the right questions. To us it was a tragedy, but to the US it has become some sort of anti-terrorist crusade, where calm judgement and rational decisions are virtually impossible.

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  11. 0. Has Ilham Heydar oglu Aliyev paid money to Orban’s secret overseas bank account ? How much?

    1. Will Hungary pay less interest to Azerbaijan than to the IMF?

    2. Will Azerbaijan buy EON’s gas division or MOL?

    3. Will Aliyev be made the king of Azero-Hungary? :)

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  12. Further brainstorming:

    New electoral law: Azeris will vote for the Hungarian Parliament only, while Hungarians will vote for members of the Azeri Parliament – in mail.

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  13. The name of the first Hungarian king will be changed to “St. Ali” in school textbooks. Now I understand why Orban nationalized the schools and forced a unified, mandatory curriculum on them.

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  14. Otherwise Orban has made a good, albeit immoral deal.

    Compare.
    1. The Israelis have released a thousand murderers of Israelis in exchange for one soldier.
    2. The Hungarians have freed a single murderer of an Armenian in exchange for economic benefits.

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  15. “Gabriella Selmeczi, the spokeswoman of the party, cited the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons of 1983, which was later accepted by Hungary. Ramil Safarov, an Azeri citizen, asked for his transfer to Azerbaijan. Hungary only obliged.”

    Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons
    Strasbourg, 21.III.1983
    http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/112.htm

    Prisoner transfers are voluntary and not an obligation of the sentencing state.

    “Article 3 – Conditions for transfer
    1. A sentenced person may be transferred under this Convention only on the following conditions:
    a. if that person is a national of the administering State*;
    b. if the judgment is final;
    c. if, at the time of receipt of the request for transfer, the sentenced person still has at least six months of the sentence to serve or if the sentence is indeterminate;
    d. if the transfer is consented to by the sentenced person or, where in view of his age or his physical or mental condition one of the two States considers it necessary, by the sentenced person’s legal representative;
    e. if the acts or omissions on account of which the sentence has been imposed constitute a criminal offence according to the law of the administering State or would constitute a criminal offence if committed on its territory; and
    f. if the sentencing and administering States agree to the transfer.”

    * the state to which the prisoner will be transferred.

    Under 1. f. it seems that the Hungarian government could have decided not to transfer the prisoner. Given the knowledge that the prisoner was considered a hero in his home country, there was a high likelihood he would be pardoned. Also given the knowledge that a transfer could ignite international tensions in the region, the Hungarian government could have disagreed to make the transfer.

    A real blunder of a diplomatic move by the Fidesz run government. Yet again they manage to make Hungary look bad. So much for the mythical end of the criticisms of the current government.

    The Contrarian Hungarian also has a post on this issue: http://thecontrarianhungarian.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/conflict-with-armenia-to-date-the-greatest-diplomatic-success-of-the-orban-government/

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  16. tappanch :
    Otherwise Orban has made a good, albeit immoral deal.
    Compare.
    1. The Israelis have released a thousand murderers of Israelis in exchange for one soldier.
    2. The Hungarians have freed a single murderer of an Armenian in exchange for economic benefits.

    Good point, tappanch.
    Now it’s useful to ponder Orban’s adherence to Christian beliefs, not mention his conversion
    to Catholicism. Well, if he hadn’t, I guess he woudn’t have met the pope….or won over the Hungarian Catholic Church and their sla…I mean, believers.

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  17. Éva, you write that “But that Viktor Orbán knew about what would happen is certain. It was a “financial deal.” Indeed, it was! The Hungarian Ambassador to Baku is Zsolt Csutora. He is the brother of László Csutora, Fidesz treasurer for Budapest and a lietunant of Lajos Simicska.

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  18. Turkmenbasi :
    Éva, you write that “But that Viktor Orbán knew about what would happen is certain. It was a “financial deal.” Indeed, it was! The Hungarian Ambassador to Baku is Zsolt Csutora. He is the brother of László Csutora, Fidesz treasurer for Budapest and a lietunant of Lajos Simicska.

    This is precisely the point. Orban and his thugs convince people they are insane. They are not insane! They simply have the gall to feed their power fetish and line their pockets in ways their predecessors would never have imagined. It’s a mafia, not a mental institution.

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  19. It is apalling to see that the life and fate of Hungary and Hungarian people are in the hands of a maffia led by Orbán and his thugs.I wonder what’s going to be the last straw , how much more shame and humiliation we are supposed to endure.

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  20. Regardless of the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict, that animal was an axe-murderer, a hero for azerbaijan-a country, where the legislation does not imply ANY punishment to a murderer of an Armenian, even more, provides promotion in career etc (racism, hatred towards Armenians is the aliev’s policy).
    It is so pitty to see that live was sold for a couple of bilions. This act of hun. government was disscussed prior to take decision on extradiction, I dont believe that Hung officials did not know that safarov’s extradition will worsen the situation in the Caucasus region, particularly Karabagh conflict. They, of course, knew and acted with the permission of “Big Bosses”. If it is not so, then Hung politicians are far from politics. aliev will use this “heroism” as a PR for his next presidential election campaign!
    Hungarian people deserve better politicians. How can they tolerate politicians that
    sold the honor of their country?
    How can one assure that Armenians will not be killed by azeri murderer in the future during another conference, training or seminar, organized by another international organisation in Hungarian territory? How can one assure that politicians will not bid the price of the murderers for another bilion to pay e.g. pensions.Is Hungary so poor to commit such a crime towards its moral values? It is shameful.
    How can aliev declare that Karabagh Armenians will have autonomy within the azerbaijan and live in peace. azeri president declared once during the interview that anyone, who kills Armenian is a hero for him.
    [answer to Louis Kovash]
    azeri propaganda is based on the lie and falsification of the real history of Karabagh war, read the true facts and you will see what has happened in Sumgait and other Armenian cities, how azeries learned the lessons on genocide of Armenians from turks and repeated massacres right after Karabagh people declared independence from Soviet Union and azerbaijan.
    P.S. Karabagh people can never be part of azerbaijan. Otherwise axe-murderer will commit the same crime in Karabagh.

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  21. And now Orbán has been truly stung. There will be outrage if he signs a deal with the Azeris over the government bonds (chances are they will just break off negotiations “under the circumstances” in any case), so he’s gained nothing on every level. The Azeris get their “hero” back and it has scarcely cost their government a thing.
    The script-writers on “Hustle” couldn’t have done a better job.

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  22. London Calling!

    I would prefer not to hear any more ‘parallels’ with Lockerbie.

    It is a non sequitur.

    My preference is due to the fact that most people on here have a certain level of intelligence and don’t usually engage in such ignorance. They are mostly well informed – and I prefer to preserve this belief.

    As regards the troll.

    How can someone in so-called ‘education’ propound such illogical thoughts?
    Why does Harvard risk its reputation with such an alleged member?
    How can America allow this man loose to ‘educate’ their citizens?
    I really think that if his alleged employers were aware of the sheer ignorance and childishness he displays they would cease to employ him – if they haven’t already done so.
    Why haven’t any of his alleged students Google’d him and brought him to the attention of his seniors?
    I would not let him loose on my children.
    Above all – what a disaster for the Hungarian reputation – already so low.

    Yes – don’t feed the troll.

    Regards

    Charlie

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  23. I continue to state my case: Orbans actions–all pervasive in the Hungarian government–are not
    the actions of a person who cares for his country.

    WHAT IS GOING ON???

    Why is it to Orban’s benefit that Hungary be destroyed?

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  24. It depends on what you mean by “Hungary be destroyed”. If “flourishing Hungary” is equated with the “sovereignty” of a small group of people to do whatever they please, Hungary is currently in very good shape. Although it is increasingly clear that OV’s programme is cynical maintenance or expansion of power, people relate him to ideas that are more generally shared (“sovereignty” – from the EU and “Brussels” and the West in general, “Trianon”, dominance of Hungarian politics and the economy by “Jews” and other “external forces”). So perhaps try first to wrest from OV and Fidesz their definatory power regarding (“true”) Hungarian interests.

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  25. Rettegő Iván :
    Pretty naughty situation. The Hungarian govmnt announced that it could not have done otherwise, because of the treaty on extradition, and the Azerian gvmnt gave the proper guarantees in a form of a diplomatic letter.
    http://mno.hu/belfold/itt-a-bizonyitek-hazudtak-az-azeriek-1102783
    What is the oppinion of Kim Lane Scheepele? She is the legal expert.

    Don’t know what Kim Lane Scheepele’s opinion is, but my understanding is that the treaty on extradition did not compel Hungary, as it is up to the country’s judgement whether to extradite a convicted criminal or not. That’s why he hasn’t been extradited since 2004, though the Azeris have been requesting it ever since. Showing around that letter is just a lame excuse the government is trying to use here.

    Hungary did have a choice in the matter, and decided to trust the Azeris… it is really hard to believe they were so naive as to not see what’s going to happen. In that case, they were idiots, and the Armenians are right for calling for the resignation of the Minister of Justice. My hunch is that they choose to believe the Azeris, not because they are so trustworthy, but because of the financial assistance Hungary hopes to get from there.

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  26. An :

    Rettegő Iván :
    Pretty naughty situation. The Hungarian govmnt announced that it could not have done otherwise, because of the treaty on extradition, and the Azerian gvmnt gave the proper guarantees in a form of a diplomatic letter.
    http://mno.hu/belfold/itt-a-bizonyitek-hazudtak-az-azeriek-1102783
    What is the oppinion of Kim Lane Scheepele? She is the legal expert.

    …my understanding is that the treaty on extradition did not compel Hungary, as it is up to the country’s judgement whether to extradite a convicted criminal or not.

    This isn’t an extradition, it’s an international prisoner transfer. Mexico, the US and Canada have a treaty in place that spell out which prisoners are eligible and how, once transfered, the remainder of their sentence should be executed. It’s mostly a way of making sure that Mexicans criminals are sent back from the US to Mexico. On the other hand, extradition is about returning a person to the country in which the crime was committed. While extradition treaties are common, prisoner transfer treaties are rare.

    In this case I don’t know under whose authority would be needed to authorize the the transfer. I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t even an extradition treaty in place and very surprised if there was a prisoner transfer agreement. The process of international prisoner transfer might not even be well here. That said, I should ask; does anyone know if the EU has some agreement in place that would see nationals returned to their country of origin to continue serving their sentences. Wasn’t there just recently a case in Britain where a prisoner was returned to France to complete a sentence?

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  27. @ Kirsten…”…wresting the power to define Hungary’s interests..”

    The Hungarian situation is not that complicated: the citizenry, having been lied to; bought ..ie. 13th month of pension; massively defrauded… have decided that they’ve had enough of MSZP and their ‘modernization’ schemes for Hungary. They’ve gone gung-ho into the unchartered waters of Orban’s plans. They’ve seen no other way. Perhaps, if MSZP had a sense of decency themselves, they could’ve made wholesale changes BEFORE the last elections and called on Bajnai. But then again, the thievery
    might not have gone on at the same scale, or even, if Fidesz
    wins, at the level of 70/30. At present, the supporters of
    MSZP are remnants–old loyalists who have neither the energy or
    the desire to go elsewhere. To his credit, Gyurcsany has split
    with whatever decent elements remained in the party.

    So, the choice is this: Orban, the Catholic Church, the glories
    and value of the Past vs the unbelievables called MSZP. There
    seems–to the average Hungarian–no other choice. He’s trapped. But the pot is boiling and the lid is precariously dancing on top–all hell may soon break loose because Orban has now
    held up the country to ridicule by trying to sell government paper
    when all he had to do was agree with the IMF. The mendacity
    of Orban has been laid bare..not to the world at large, which already knew it, but to the Hungarian citizenry.

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  28. Pete H. :
    “Gabriella Selmeczi, the spokeswoman of the party, cited the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons of 1983, which was later accepted by Hungary. Ramil Safarov, an Azeri citizen, asked for his transfer to Azerbaijan. Hungary only obliged.”
    Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons
    Strasbourg, 21.III.1983
    http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/112.htm
    Prisoner transfers are voluntary and not an obligation of the sentencing state.
    “Article 3 – Conditions for transfer
    1. A sentenced person may be transferred under this Convention only on the following conditions:
    a. if that person is a national of the administering State*;
    b. if the judgment is final;
    c. if, at the time of receipt of the request for transfer, the sentenced person still has at least six months of the sentence to serve or if the sentence is indeterminate;
    d. if the transfer is consented to by the sentenced person or, where in view of his age or his physical or mental condition one of the two States considers it necessary, by the sentenced person’s legal representative;
    e. if the acts or omissions on account of which the sentence has been imposed constitute a criminal offence according to the law of the administering State or would constitute a criminal offence if committed on its territory; and
    f. if the sentencing and administering States agree to the transfer.”
    * the state to which the prisoner will be transferred.
    Under 1. f. it seems that the Hungarian government could have decided not to transfer the prisoner. Given the knowledge that the prisoner was considered a hero in his home country, there was a high likelihood he would be pardoned. Also given the knowledge that a transfer could ignite international tensions in the region, the Hungarian government could have disagreed to make the transfer.
    A real blunder of a diplomatic move by the Fidesz run government. Yet again they manage to make Hungary look bad. So much for the mythical end of the criticisms of the current government.
    The Contrarian Hungarian also has a post on this issue: http://thecontrarianhungarian.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/conflict-with-armenia-to-date-the-greatest-diplomatic-success-of-the-orban-government/

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  29. London Calling!

    Just a thought.

    Why did NATO put them on the same English course – the conflict had been going on for years?

    Isn’t ‘conflict resolution’ NATO’s bread and butter.

    And on a lighter note – Why Hungary to learn English?

    Certainly if you want to forget to use prepositions; mix up ‘he’ and ‘she’ pronouns; order yr grammar in a strange mix; forget the definite and indefinite article; emphasise the first syllable without fail; regard scissors; trousers and all plural nouns as singular; and completely nause up plurals altogether – then Yes!!

    Strange NATO!

    (Ok,Ok,Ok…I know – I can’t speak ANY Hungarian!!! – You all do very very well really!)

    Regards

    Charlie

    View Comment
  30. Even more OT, but funny in away:

    Charlie, you should watch the Hungarian news as we’re doing right now …

    On M1 they reported the death of songwriter Hal David – it went on for five minutes …

    Is there nothing important happening in Hungary right now ????

    PS: It wasn’t bad: We heard Aretha Franklina and other singers with those lovely (but kitschy) Bacharach/David songs and even saw President Obama giving some kind of medal to those two – but still, on prime time news you expect something else …

    View Comment
  31. Don’t worry Wolfi. Unless there is some ‘technical problem’ transferring the €3 billion, you can expect to hear 5-minute news bulletins about previously unknown Azeri pop singers in the near future.

    View Comment
  32. An :

    Rettegő Iván :
    Pretty naughty situation. The Hungarian govmnt announced that it could not have done otherwise, because of the treaty on extradition, and the Azerian gvmnt gave the proper guarantees in a form of a diplomatic letter.
    http://mno.hu/belfold/itt-a-bizonyitek-hazudtak-az-azeriek-1102783
    What is the oppinion of Kim Lane Scheepele? She is the legal expert.

    Don’t know what Kim Lane Scheepele’s opinion is, but my understanding is that the treaty on extradition did not compel Hungary, as it is up to the country’s judgement whether to extradite a convicted criminal or not. That’s why he hasn’t been extradited since 2004, though the Azeris have been requesting it ever since. Showing around that letter is just a lame excuse the government is trying to use here.
    Hungary did have a choice in the matter, and decided to trust the Azeris… it is really hard to believe they were so naive as to not see what’s going to happen. In that case, they were idiots, and the Armenians are right for calling for the resignation of the Minister of Justice. My hunch is that they choose to believe the Azeris, not because they are so trustworthy, but because of the financial assistance Hungary hopes to get from there.

    Ah, that ever so friendly bias toward Orban and fellow Hungarians, huh?
    (You’ve gotta get rid of that.) What if the actual story was that Orban suggested the
    scheme back when he visited there? That would put a different light on it, wouldn’t it?
    And what if the Azeris figured that Orban had so little integrity that they might just as well
    ‘hoist him by his own petard’? Hard to make a deal with someone you don’t respect.
    Unfortunately, the rest of Hungary has to eat the crow that’s been served up to Orban, too.
    Either way, the Azeri didn’t care to rub Hungary’s nose in it when it immediately pardoned
    the killer rather than wait 6 months. THAT was a special slap in the face for Herr
    Felcsutian!

    View Comment
  33. You might try to read the comments on pol.hu:

    http://www.politics.hu/20120901/armenia-cuts-ties-with-hungary-over-azerbaijan-killer-pardon/#commentbottom

    There’s probably now more than 300 in two days – it’s unbelievable what level this has reached with “Azerbeijanis”, “Armenians”, “Romanians” and “Hungarians” clawing each other’s throats …

    But be warned: vulgarities abound – in a way it’s funny and surely stuff for a psychological analysis.

    I wonder what the international media will make of this – in cucumber season this might be “No 1” …

    View Comment
  34. By-election in the Fidesz stronghold of Hódmezővásárhely:

    Fidesz 52.3% (2010: 67%, 2006: 72%)

    Participation rate 33.1% (2010: 42%)

    This is what Fidesz leaders would like to see overall in 2014: winning the election with a mere 17% support in the adult population.

    View Comment
  35. wolfi :

    You might try to read the comments on pol.hu:

    http://www.politics.hu/20120901/armenia-cuts-ties-with-hungary-over-azerbaijan-killer-pardon/#commentbottom

    There’s probably now more than 300 in two days – it’s unbelievable what level this has reached with “Azerbeijanis”, “Armenians”, “Romanians” and “Hungarians” clawing each other’s throats …

    But be warned: vulgarities abound – in a way it’s funny and surely stuff for a psychological analysis.

    I wonder what the international media will make of this – in cucumber season this might be “No 1″ …

    What disgusting characters. “Magyar” for example is a real price.

    View Comment
  36. tappanch :

    By-election in the Fidesz stronghold of Hódmezővásárhely:

    Fidesz 52.3% (2010: 67%, 2006: 72%)

    Participation rate 33.1% (2010: 42%)

    This is what Fidesz leaders would like to see overall in 2014: winning the election with a mere 17% support in the adult population.

    Actually, I expected worse results. For Hódmezővásárhely this is not bad. Take a look at in Magyar Nemzet: http://mno.hu/belfold/meg-hornek-sem-tudtak-bevenni-a-varost-1101828

    View Comment
  37. London Calling!

    Goodness Wolfi! – such hatred; such rhetoric; and so many expletives!

    So much gets lost in a sea of expletives.

    I like the optimism of Rev Bill Munday trying to raise the debate!

    We are lucky here to have such articulate contributors.

    Regards

    Charlie

    View Comment
  38. CharlieH :

    London Calling!

    Goodness Wolfi! – such hatred; such rhetoric; and so many expletives!

    So much gets lost in a sea of expletives.

    I like the optimism of Rev Bill Munday trying to raise the debate!

    We are lucky here to have such articulate contributors.

    Regards

    Charlie

    Yes, Charlie, we are very lucky and I’m very grateful.

    View Comment
  39. Petofi: ” They’ve gone gung-ho into the unchartered waters of Orban’s plans.”

    These waters were not unchartered. He made no secret of the direction of his plans, and neither of his willingness to use Jobbik for his objectives. Why it had been impossible to create a strong centre party after 1990 (so that the choice is not ex-Communists or nationalists), has not been explained to me. I heard only explanations such as SzDSz was a party of Jews etc., which is a type of explanation that I consider to reflect the main problem of Hungary (too many political ideas of very dubious value too broadly distributed). It is not that people were subjected to specifically vile politicians without ever having had the chance to have it otherwise.

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  40. Kirsten: “..too many political ideas..”

    I guess you’re not Hungarian, Kirsten, or you’d know that thieving and lying for the Hungarian
    is second only to getting one over on someone–no greater pleasure than to make a fool
    of another person. For some reason, the frail Hungarian psyche requires that others be
    made to appear inferior.

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  41. Everybody is talking about Lockerbie being similar and different, but the interesting thing is that, less than a year and half after al-Megrahi was sent back to Libya by Scotland, the US and the UK helped to bring down the Libyan government, and Qaddafi was murdered. Will Armenia foment and assist a rebel movement to bring down Fidesz?

    View Comment
  42. Petofi1 :
    Kirsten: “..too many political ideas..”
    I guess you’re not Hungarian, Kirsten, or you’d know that thieving and lying for the Hungarian
    is second only to getting one over on someone–no greater pleasure than to make a fool
    of another person. For some reason, the frail Hungarian psyche requires that others be
    made to appear inferior.

    Can we please stop with the blanket statements about Hungarian or any other nationalities. Some may hold to the views you ascribe to them, but many, many, many do not.

    And, I find it unhelpful to encourage those Hungarians who keep on explaining away things because Hungarians are different, or Hungarians are special. It’s unhelpful.

    View Comment
  43. Dubious :

    Petofi1 :

    Kirsten: “..too many political ideas..”
    I guess you’re not Hungarian, Kirsten, or you’d know that thieving and lying for the Hungarian
    is second only to getting one over on someone–no greater pleasure than to make a fool
    of another person. For some reason, the frail Hungarian psyche requires that others be
    made to appear inferior.

    Can we please stop with the blanket statements about Hungarian or any other nationalities. Some may hold to the views you ascribe to them, but many, many, many do not.
    And, I find it unhelpful to encourage those Hungarians who keep on explaining away things because Hungarians are different, or Hungarians are special. It’s unhelpful.

    Agreed. No better than the nonsense posted by Magyar and his like at Politics.hu.

    View Comment
  44. Dubious: “keep on explaining away things because Hungarians are different, or Hungarians are special. It’s unhelpful.”

    I agree.
    And also, Petöfi, if matters were truly as lost as described by you, I wonder why you suggested that one person (Bajnai) could improve the situation within a year’s time…

    View Comment
  45. CharlieH :
    London Calling!
    Goodness Wolfi! – such hatred; such rhetoric; and so many expletives!
    So much gets lost in a sea of expletives.
    I like the optimism of Rev Bill Munday trying to raise the debate!
    We are lucky here to have such articulate contributors.
    Regards
    Charlie

    Not luck, Charile. Prof Balogh monitors, admonishes, and when necessary excludes. http://www.politics.hu is an open forum, and is correspondingly of little value. Prof Balogh, thank you for ensuring that HUNGARIAN SPECTRUM remains civil.

    View Comment
  46. Petofi1 :

    Kirsten: “..too many political ideas..”

    I guess you’re not Hungarian, Kirsten, or you’d know that thieving and lying for the Hungarian
    is second only to getting one over on someone–no greater pleasure than to make a fool
    of another person. For some reason, the frail Hungarian psyche requires that others be
    made to appear inferior.

    This is a far too sweeping generalization. But one thing is sure, business ethics is not a strength in today’s Hungary. There was far too much stealing during the Kádár era. People got used to it.

    As far as this “bunch” is concerned, they are really terribly corrupt.

    View Comment
  47. Wondercat :

    CharlieH :
    London Calling!
    Goodness Wolfi! – such hatred; such rhetoric; and so many expletives!
    So much gets lost in a sea of expletives.
    I like the optimism of Rev Bill Munday trying to raise the debate!
    We are lucky here to have such articulate contributors.
    Regards
    Charlie

    Not luck, Charile. Prof Balogh monitors, admonishes, and when necessary excludes. http://www.politics.hu is an open forum, and is correspondingly of little value. Prof Balogh, thank you for ensuring that HUNGARIAN SPECTRUM remains civil.

    Actually it is mostly admonishing. You can all see when I express dissatisfaction with some comments. It happens rarely. But in five years I actually refused to publish somebody’s writings only once. And I never edit comments although it can be done in WordPress.

    View Comment
  48. Again, contrary to what I posted, I was accused of “pro-murderer’ and pro-Orban bias, while truth is that I have not even mentioned the current case.
    In my opinion the consequences of the release both in Armenia and Azerbaijan could have been predicted.

    Well, I will not start at the beginning of Armenian history, only the part that immediately preceded WWI.

    Russia had two manias in the early 1900s, gaining the Bosporus straights from Turkey and becoming the dominant power in the Balkans. As a Fifth column he used “Christian” Serbs in the Balkans and Armenians inside Turkey..

    A 1910 A Russian General Staff memo outlines a plan for seizing Constantinople, first the rail and telegraph lines to Ankara and Adrianople would be cut by “agents from the Christian population”, whereupon Russia friendly Christians in the city would burn down all the wooden bridges spanning the Golden Horn and set fire to Stambul”. The Christians of Pera then would rise, in coordination with Russian amphibious landings.

    The recently available Russian archives (RGVIA) also have numerous interesting documents and data regarding the Russian – Armenian cooperation PRIOR to Turkey’s entry into WWI. Interestingly the Russian were first betting on two folks who were enemies of each other the Kurds, who were happily trying to massacre Armenians and the Armenians themselves, until finally emphasizing the Armenian connection.
    At that time there were already armed Armenian guerillas the Dashnaks (a left leaning crowd) and Hunchaks in the Ottoman Empire. Some of these were also endeavoring to topple the Tsarist regime, but later assisted the Russians in the anti-Turkish activities. The fighting related to the primarily Kurdish “ Hamidiye military police and the armed Armenian bands,. At that time Russia was still financing and arming both the Armenians and the Kurdish (mostly nomadic) tribes.
    The Russian vice consul Olferiev reports from Van “ Van had turned into armed camp” and a “complete Russophile in the vilayet”

    In Aug 1914 general Yudenitch Chief of staff of the Caucasian Armies is requesting an additional 25,000 small arms for distribution among the Armenian guerillas. Inside Turkey (prior to any war between Turkey and Russia!). The Russian command (Sazanov) gave instructions that the Armenian uprising should start when the Russian troops are in action nearby. However Russian troops never made it far into Turkey and in spite of that the Armenians rebelled. In the 4 weeks of occupation of Van the Armenian rebels expected Russian help “any day now” The city fell to the Turks, but it was finally taken by the Russians, but unable to hold it withdraw, with dire consequences for the Armenians. The Van event was repeated in many locations in Turkey at the end with similar consequences. While this was going on in Turkey, inside Russia there were equally monstrous massacres of Mohammedans regardless of national aspirations..

    The Armenian history can not be considered without the recently opened Russian archives.

    View Comment
  49. Louis Kovach :
    Again, contrary to what I posted, I was accused of “pro-murderer’ and pro-Orban bias, while truth is that I have not even mentioned the current case.
    In my opinion the consequences of the release both in Armenia and Azerbaijan could have been predicted.
    Well, I will not start at the beginning of Armenian history, only the part that immediately preceded WWI.
    Russia had two manias in the early 1900s, gaining the Bosporus straights from Turkey and becoming the dominant power in the Balkans. As a Fifth column he used “Christian” Serbs in the Balkans and Armenians inside Turkey..
    A 1910 A Russian General Staff memo outlines a plan for seizing Constantinople, first the rail and telegraph lines to Ankara and Adrianople would be cut by “agents from the Christian population”, whereupon Russia friendly Christians in the city would burn down all the wooden bridges spanning the Golden Horn and set fire to Stambul”. The Christians of Pera then would rise, in coordination with Russian amphibious landings.
    The recently available Russian archives (RGVIA) also have numerous interesting documents and data regarding the Russian – Armenian cooperation PRIOR to Turkey’s entry into WWI. Interestingly the Russian were first betting on two folks who were enemies of each other the Kurds, who were happily trying to massacre Armenians and the Armenians themselves, until finally emphasizing the Armenian connection.
    At that time there were already armed Armenian guerillas the Dashnaks (a left leaning crowd) and Hunchaks in the Ottoman Empire. Some of these were also endeavoring to topple the Tsarist regime, but later assisted the Russians in the anti-Turkish activities. The fighting related to the primarily Kurdish “ Hamidiye military police and the armed Armenian bands,. At that time Russia was still financing and arming both the Armenians and the Kurdish (mostly nomadic) tribes.
    The Russian vice consul Olferiev reports from Van “ Van had turned into armed camp” and a “complete Russophile in the vilayet”
    In Aug 1914 general Yudenitch Chief of staff of the Caucasian Armies is requesting an additional 25,000 small arms for distribution among the Armenian guerillas. Inside Turkey (prior to any war between Turkey and Russia!). The Russian command (Sazanov) gave instructions that the Armenian uprising should start when the Russian troops are in action nearby. However Russian troops never made it far into Turkey and in spite of that the Armenians rebelled. In the 4 weeks of occupation of Van the Armenian rebels expected Russian help “any day now” The city fell to the Turks, but it was finally taken by the Russians, but unable to hold it withdraw, with dire consequences for the Armenians. The Van event was repeated in many locations in Turkey at the end with similar consequences. While this was going on in Turkey, inside Russia there were equally monstrous massacres of Mohammedans regardless of national aspirations..
    The Armenian history can not be considered without the recently opened Russian archives.

    You can see why Éva doesn’t want to edit posts!

    View Comment
  50. Kovach, WHO CARES about the history of the two countries in this context? (Apparently you do.) Can you understand what happened. On a foreign soil (that happened to be Hungary) in a friendly training a soldier in training became an axe murderer axed to death an other soldier who was sleeping. It is wrong to kill someone in a peaceful country under peaceful circumstances. The murderer done this as a hate crime. He was arrested and put the jail in Hungary. The Hungarian government knew darn well that would happen if they release this monster, but money talks, so Orban sold the pride, the respect, and the morals of his country. The problem is simply that simple, and we do not need your know it all history lesson that we can all look up on the Internet if we wish. These soldier had NOTHING to do with the conflict of the two countries. The murderer made a decision to murder an innocent man. Let’s make it even more simple for you, a Serbian man happens to go to Austria and kills a man from Kosovo. He gets a life sentence but at the same time in Serbia they celebrate him as a hero, then they offer a few billion dollars to Austria for his release. Austria releases him, and surprise he becomes a national hero in Serbia. Do you get it, or do you need more explanation?

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  51. Thanks Kovach. A+. You can sit down now.

    Actually if your are still on-line … what’s this got to do with money hungry, immoral actions of the FIDESZ government? Where do you stand?

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