Hungarian anti-fascist demonstration: Speech of Gordon Bajnai

The debate over what really happened yesterday is raging. First, there were those who strenuously objected to the presence of Antal Rogán, leader of the Fidesz caucus. By now, however, the attention has shifted to the fundamentalist Hit Gyülekezete, one of the organizers of the demonstration. I suspect that many of those young people I extolled came at the call of Sándor Németh, the head of the church.

Zsófia Mihancsik pointed out that the crowd we saw yesterday was very different from the ones that normally go out to demonstrate against the government.  They looked different and they behaved differently. Every one of them had a Hungarian flag in hand, which they waved furiously. And yes, they shouted slogans in unison. But what can we do if  Hungarian parties are incapable of organizing a larger demonstration? Obviously, this church, which is committed to Israel as practically all fundamentalist Christian churches are, knows how to organize.

Some people complained that the people were asked not to boo during Rogán’s speech. It was construed as obstructing free speech. On the other hand, if you read Gordon Bajnai’s speech you may notice an equal restraint when he talked about not complaining about the wrongdoings of the government.

As for the numbers. Interestingly, the Ministry of Interior, unlike after the Peace March, didn’t make an official estimate of the size of the crowd. When asked, the answer was that it is not their duty to count heads. Interesting! The latest estimate is 50,000 people.

Viktor Orbán didn’t do what Attila Mesterházy asked him to do. He didn’t explicitly and clearly distance himself from Jobbik and condemn them. He refused to dismiss Zsolt Németh because of his inadequate answer to Jobbik parliamentarian Márton Gyöngyösi. He talked about the incident in a roundabout way by saying: “As long as I stand in this place, no one can be attacked because of his faith or origin. We Hungarians do protect our Jewish compatriots. The Hungarian nation suffered through dictatorships. We will not allow anyone or any kind of ideology, economic interest or foreign power to divert Hungary from its democratic conviction and the respect of human dignity.” I might add that Orbán read the above from a prepared text which is not his wont during parliamentary debates.

There are at least two problems with this short reference to the event of last week. One is that Orbán speaks of “we Hungarians” protecting the Jews. The implication is that Jews are not Hungarians, not part of the nation. It is worth quoting here from Gordon Bajnai’s speech where he talks about the “Hungarian Shoah [as] fratricide.” The other problem is that unfortunately there was a time when “we Hungarians” failed to protect “our Jewish compatriots.” The promise therefore sounded hollow.

Below is my translation of Gordon Bajnai’s speech which, according to Origo, the crowd liked best. The same article claimed that the listeners were not at all enthusiastic about Mesterházy’s speech. I must say that I didn’t notice any change in the mood of the crowd.

A democrat not only is not afraid but he is someone who doesn’t strike fear in others.

A democrat not only is not afraid; he does not strike fear in others.

* * *

My dear compatriots, my dear fellow citizens!

The organizers asked each speaker, myself included, to be brief. They are right and not just because of the cold. There is no need to speak at length to explain why we are here.

We want to live in peace! We want to live in a world where problems are solved not by force but by common effort. We want to live in a place where upon encountering difficulties people look for solutions and not for scapegoats.

I’m forty-four years old: my generation grew up without experiencing war. I want my children to be given that privilege. It is critically important how we react to the hatred of Jews, the hatred of Gypsies, and how we respond toward those whose lifeline is hatred itself.

We, the many thousands of us here and those who are watching the event on television in addition to the millions across the country, want to live in a country where life without fear is an entitlement. An entitlement which cannot be taken away from anyone regardless of where he was born or whose child he is.

We want to live in a country without fear, in a normal country. In peace, not in war. And not in ceaseless domestic warfare.

Hungary today, however, is not functioning as a normal country. Start with the fact that the public considered it a sensation that diverse representatives of public life today at last, together and not against each other, are standing up against hatred. Civic representatives and politicians. Right wingers, left wingers, and centrists. Members of the government party and the opposition.

In a country that functions normally this shouldn’t be news. What would be news in those countries is if representatives of democratic parties didn’t act this way. A democrat is not afraid and he does not strike fear in others.

Yet this demonstration will make banner headlines in Hungary. This is not the media’s fault. This is our fault. The fault of all of us.

Mine too.

Because it is true that it gives us hope that today, on the first day of Advent, at the most important site of the country’s capital, Hungary is functioning the way it should be functioning every day…

However, we should feel guilty that we haven’t been here in the past years. At the very least when Róbert Csorba and his five-year-old son Robika were killed in Tatárszentgyörgy. Mrs. Tibor Nagy and József Nagy in Nagycsécse. Jenő Kóka in Tiszalök and Mária Balogh in Kisléta.

Six Hungarians just because they were Gypsies. They were killed because of their origin.

And we didn’t come out here and didn’t ask each other how such things could happen in our country…. We didn’t ask their forgiveness for not being able to defend them. There was no national mourning.

This was a grave mistake and Hungary can never make such a mistake again! This event is also about that.

My compatriots!

Lately one often hears that if a frog is dropped into hot water he will jump out because his vital instincts work. However, if the temperature of  water around him is raised slowly, he will be cooked to death without moving a muscle.

In the past few years, we Hungarians were getting used to higher and higher degrees of hate. We no longer even winced. But at stake is our national survival and leading lives worthy of a human being.

In this country there cannot be innocent anti-Semitic talk [zsidózás] and there cannot be innocent anti-Gypsy rattle [cigányozás] because the Holocaust is our national tragedy. In Hungarian Shoah there are not only victims but guilty compatriots. This was a fratricide that must change forever our relations to the words and deeds of hate.

Not long ago a member of parliament made a speech that cannot be explained away. It was an anti-Semitic speech full of hate. It was also a speech that revealed his own being, his party Jobbik, and the whole Hungarian extreme right.

He said that Hungarian Jews must be listed because they are a national security risk.

I fervently want to believe that this country, this nation learned its lesson. That we learned that the national security risks are those who want to compile lists on the basis of origin, worldviews, or beliefs.

Once was enough. We don’t forget! And we won’t let anyone forget!

That’s why we are here, this is what I hope. Because of our reawakened vital instincts. Because we want to make it clear that we don’t want to step into the same river twice. Into the same river at whose banks orphaned shoes—shoes of Hungarian men, women, and children—will lie to the end of times.

This troubled, wise and great river, the Danube, is our witness that we don’t forget and don’t let others forget!

My compatriots!

Anti-Semitism is not about Jews. And the hatred of Gypsies is not about Gypsies. It is about us, all of us, about Hungary, about the nation.

The future of the Hungarian community depends on our solidarity with each other.

Nazism is incompatible with life. The Nazis, those who discriminate, the neo-fascists bring only devastation. And once the country is in ruins they think they can rule it. In a normal country they wouldn’t be able to achieve this.

But Nazism is like most pathogens. It is able to attack only those with a weak immune system. It can defeat only sick countries.

That’s why this virus likes economic difficulties, societal crises, division within the nation. Because it is in that kind of environment that it thrives and multiplies.

And therefore symptomatic treatment of it is not enough. Prevention is a must.

Good governance, a strong societal center, and a healthy political culture are necessary to make sure that these pathogens don’t show up in our cities and villages again. That they are forced back to where they belong: to the pages of historical works on great epidemics, between the chapters on cholera and the bubonic plague.

My compatriots!

Today in a way is also a day of awakening. Politics–as it has been practiced in the last twelve years, which consisted of a kind of domestic cold war—made us blind and irresponsible.

We became blind because we didn’t realize that the unscrupulous power struggle, the division of the nation, the debasement of politics only assists the Hungarian extreme right.

And we became irresponsible because during our fanatical political struggles we too easily branded each other. “If you are on the left, you are a communist. If you are on the right, you are a Nazi.”

It is not in our interest to drive away from the middle of the political spectrum any of our compatriots by attaching unfair and rash labels on them.

By now this mutual branding game has divided and weakened Hungary. It has sent bad messages to everybody.

It told the real Nazis that their presence is acceptable because after all one half of the country calls the other half Nazi. … But the truth is that the presence of Nazis is unacceptable.

People on the right felt that they have more understanding from, have more in common with the far right than with the middle. But the truth is that the far right denies everything they believe in. National unity, Christian teachings, the inheritance of St. Stephen. Faith, hope, and love.

It sent a message to the people on the left that anti-fascism and a culture open to the world is their exclusive domain… But the truth is that to contrast the right-wing worldview with anti-fascism is to commit the same sin as to contrast left-wing views with patriotism.

We are patriotic Hungarians—and therefore anti-fascists—before we are right- or left-wingers.

Many people suggested that I use the occasion to castigate the complicity of the government parties and/or the impotence of the left-wing governance. I will not oblige!

I fought the regime yesterday and I will fight it again tomorrow because it gives ample reason to do so every day.

But today is not a time of normalcy in Hungary. Our first commandment is: “Everybody must cooperate against the Nazis. One must not collaborate with them for any reason.”

It doesn’t matter what party or what politician you vote for at the next elections, we will be deciding on the future of Hungary.

So, let’s send the message together: No one will frighten us! Let’s send the message that no one must be afraid in Hungary! Because together we are louder than any word of hate and together we are stronger than any deed of hatred.

We are Hungarian, we defend each other, and we are not afraid!

Thank you for listening.

61 comments

  1. Two thoughts:

    1) I’d still like to know why there was no protest in parliament at the time of the speech. Why did the MSzP or LMP MPs who were present do and say nothing?

    2) Much as it was good to hear such speeches and to see more publicity about Gyöngyösi’s appalling comments, it bothers me that this demonstration was organised by people I personally find almost as worrying as Jobbik.

    Was the motivation behind this demo purely anti-antiSemitism?

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  2. I full heartedly compliment the organizers and the participants of the NEM 2012 demonstration.

    Bajnai needs an efficient PR support group. 4-5 gifted journalists/lawyers could respond every morning to the ridiculous events of the previous day.

    The Begala/Stephanopilous/Cargill team of Clinton won the election for Clinton. Clinton was almost suicidal. I see him as a failure in the pages of history.

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  3. Paul: This has been bothering me as well. Probably the comment caught Németh unaware and he wasn’t quick witted enough to do the right thing. (Mind you a few months ago Fónagy was pretty good in replying on the infamous Tiszaeszlár issue.) I have no idea though why the otherwise very sensitive looking LMP-MSZP MP’s didn’t even boo. This just strenghtens my perception that for most of the MSZP people (with obvious exceptions for sure), antinazism is just a cynical political tool. It’d be very sad if I was right.

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  4. Paul :
    1) I’d still like to know why there was no protest in parliament at the time of the speech. Why did the MSzP or LMP MPs who were present do and say nothing?
    2) Much as it was good to hear such speeches and to see more publicity about

    A charitable interpretation: they were so shocked they couldn’t move. I’d hesitate to be too charitable, though.

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  5. In general, a good talk by Bajnai: but still too much flag-waving in it for my taste. It’s time to put down the flag and urge people to think of being human, instead of just Hungarian, for a change… (My intuition tells me Bajnai was responsible for the ethical and intellectual substance, which was excellent, and it was his handlers who foisted that ritualistic flag-waving on him as a refrain, on the pretext that he is uncharismatic and needs to think of saying rousing patriotic things if there’s to be any hope of this being electable.)

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  6. Thanks for the translation. Any links to a Hungarian transcript and a video?

    Great speech. I had no issues with the flag-waiving in the speech. This was a display of mature national pride, not nationalistic hubris.

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  7. Stevanharna: I don’t really understand where this flag-aversion is coming from. Americans even wear star spangled swimpants. Actually, last time I went to a club(!) they played the American anthem at 2am for the drunks. I find this of very poor taste, but I certainly don’t see it as something outrageous. Compared to this waving flags on a protest simply symbolizes national unity and I see nothing wrong with that. Patriotism is a good thing as long as it doesn’t turn into nationalism and that naturally comes with symbols. Waving flags is the mildest of them.

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  8. This was a better than average speech. But no better than that. For most people who didn’t take part in the demonstration and felt the emotions, I think it was too vague to draw any clue from.

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  9. According to HVG Orban addressed the issue in the Parliament on Monday. I find Orban’s comments highly offensive. Am I the only one? He said the following:
    ” mi, magyarok megvédjük zsidó honfitársainkat”
    “We Hungarians will defend [protect?] our Jewish compatriots.” Excuse me, I thought that we are all Hungarians, the Jews, the gypsies and all. He should of said that, as a nation we will protect all Hungarians regardless of their race, religion, gender and political views. That is speech that we will never hear from Orban. Of course it is coming from Fidesz, from a political party that thinks that women are breading machines, and as long as they fulfill their duty to lay with man and give birth every so often, they should surely would not suffer domestic abuse.

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  10. I’m a little puzzled by semantics here, if he says “honfitársaink” doesn’t that imply that they are Hungarians too?

    I have no idea what he means (God save me from ever having to see what’s in Viktor’s head) but this sentence in Hungarian to me says “we all Hungarians” will defend “Jewish Hungarians”. Bajnai e.g. used “honfitársaim” several times addressing his audience.

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  11. Jano :
    I’m a little puzzled by semantics here, if he says “honfitársaink” doesn’t that imply that they are Hungarians too?
    I have no idea what he means (God save me from ever having to see what’s in Viktor’s head) but this sentence in Hungarian to me says “we all Hungarians” will defend “Jewish Hungarians”. Bajnai e.g. used “honfitársaim” several times addressing his audience.

    I disagree with your interpretation. Honfitars means compatriot (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compatriot).

    When Bajnai used this expression, he did not differentiate between compatriots based on their ethnic or religious origin. He just called all present compatriots.

    When Orban used it, he explicitly separated Hungarian compatriots from Jewish compatriots. Now we are getting to the essence:

    Up to the holocaust most Jews in Hungary considered themselves assimilated Hungarians of Israelite religion. The holocaust proved them wrong. Orban (together with his Jobbik brethren) is just reminding them that they were (and ARE) wrong.

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  12. Jano :
    I’m a little puzzled by semantics here, if he says “honfitársaink” doesn’t that imply that they are Hungarians too?
    I have no idea what he means (God save me from ever having to see what’s in Viktor’s head) but this sentence in Hungarian to me says “we all Hungarians” will defend “Jewish Hungarians”. Bajnai e.g. used “honfitársaim” several times addressing his audience.

    I didn’t get the feeling from the translations (much thanks for them) Jew’s where consider to Hungarian. I would have expected to hear something to the effect that we need to stand with our fellow Hungarians… as in the sense that they are part of the nation as apposed to a group living along side the nation that needs to be protected.

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  13. Paul :
    Two thoughts:
    1) I’d still like to know why there was no protest in parliament at the time of the speech. Why did the MSzP or LMP MPs who were present do and say nothing?
    2) Much as it was good to hear such speeches and to see more publicity about Gyöngyösi’s appalling comments, it bothers me that this demonstration was organised by people I personally find almost as worrying as Jobbik.
    Was the motivation behind this demo purely anti-antiSemitism?

    1.Most MPs simply did not pay attention to the speech. If you saw the broadcast, only fellow Jobbik party members were seen to even notice the content (tiny gestures, signs of surprise, faint ringing from deputy speaker Balczó, etc, ).
    2. Hit Gyülekezete played a crucial role in the Hungarian transition from ancient regime to democracy. (Key role in foundation of the SzDSz)
    Prominent representatives of Hit Gyülekezete are dedicated to maintainig and developping democracy now.
    They are definitely not fundamantalists, as it would suggest they have to do sg with terrorism.

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  14. gdfxx: I’m not sure about my interpretation either, but if I just heard it on the street detached from Orban probably that’s how I would interpret it. Also, the Jews were kind of attacked here so it would make sense to defend Jewish Hungarians. But again I’m not sure on this one and defending OV is the last thing I wanna do.

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  15. Regarding Orban’s sentence. As we learned from many of his campaign, there is plenty of money where those campaigns came from. We also learned about Orban’s double talk for decades now, especially in the last two years. His answer should of been well thought out, well written, without any ambiguity, when he comments on such sensitive subject as the Hungarian Jews, especially after Friday’s events. Instead he choose the usual easy way out, by using a sentence that can be interpreted differently depending on the audience. Mark my word for it, he will explain this sentence differently depending of the given audience.
    It is not hard to come up with two words that would make it clear that he considers Hungarian Jews Hungarian, and not an other “class”. He choose his words, and I think he choose them for a good reason. If he did not, then it was a freudian slip, and ether way, it is as shameful as the original comment from Jobbik that put these events in motion.

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  16. Some1 :
    According to HVG Orban addressed the issue in the Parliament on Monday. I find Orban’s comments highly offensive. Am I the only one? He said the following:
    ” mi, magyarok megvédjük zsidó honfitársainkat”
    “We Hungarians will defend [protect?] our Jewish compatriots.” Excuse me, I thought that we are all Hungarians, the Jews, the gypsies and all. He should of said that, as a nation we will protect all Hungarians regardless of their race, religion, gender and political views. That is speech that we will never hear from Orban. Of course it is coming from Fidesz, from a political party that thinks that women are breading machines, and as long as they fulfill their duty to lay with man and give birth every so often, they should surely would not suffer domestic abuse.

    If you want an answer to this, look at your compatriot, Petofi’s posts, who talks about Us (The Jews) and them (the lowly Hungarian goy cattle).
    Anti-semites are wrong, but many Jews are not exactly so holy either, it will require both groups to make a change.

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  17. I totally agree with Some1 and gdfxx, Orban has made a deliberate distinction in his speech.
    Otherwise he could have said as: “We will protect our Jewish compatriots” instead of “We Hungarians will protect [them]…”

    A pretty telltale sign, I’d say.

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  18. Laszlo :

    Some1 :
    According to HVG Orban addressed the issue in the Parliament on Monday. I find Orban’s comments highly offensive. Am I the only one? He said the following:
    ” mi, magyarok megvédjük zsidó honfitársainkat”
    “We Hungarians will defend [protect?] our Jewish compatriots.” Excuse me, I thought that we are all Hungarians, the Jews, the gypsies and all. He should of said that, as a nation we will protect all Hungarians regardless of their race, religion, gender and political views. That is speech that we will never hear from Orban. Of course it is coming from Fidesz, from a political party that thinks that women are breading machines, and as long as they fulfill their duty to lay with man and give birth every so often, they should surely would not suffer domestic abuse.

    If you want an answer to this, look at your compatriot, Petofi’s posts, who talks about Us (The Jews) and them (the lowly Hungarian goy cattle).
    Anti-semites are wrong, but many Jews are not exactly so holy either, it will require both groups to make a change.

    We are not here to discuss Petofi’s posts or the World According to Petofi. I had my disagreement with Petofi in the past, and just because you missed it.. well that is to bad, but in my knowledge, and please fell free to correct me if I am wrong, Petofi has never been the Prime Minister of any country, or for that matter I do not think he was ever member of the Hungarian Parliament.
    On the other hand Orban is a Prime Minster the second time around, and he sat as on MP for years. I yet to hear any Hungarian Jewish member of the parliament to refer to any members as goys. I think changes need to start at the top, and not in the sand on the playground. Regards.

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  19. Laszlo :

    If you want an answer to this, look at your compatriot, Petofi’s posts, who talks about Us (The Jews) and them (the lowly Hungarian goy cattle).
    Anti-semites are wrong, but many Jews are not exactly so holy either, it will require both groups to make a change.

    Your example simply doesn’t stand up. I can say “we Calvinists suffered from discrimination in the past.” Or, “we the inhabitants of Pécs are unhappy about the state of our theater.” Thus, a Hungarian of Jewish extraction certainly say that “we Jews do this or that.” Or not to this or that. All the groups mentioned above are part of the Hungarians. They are not outside of the nation.

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  20. Eva S. Balogh :

    Laszlo :

    If you want an answer to this, look at your compatriot, Petofi’s posts, who talks about Us (The Jews) and them (the lowly Hungarian goy cattle).
    Anti-semites are wrong, but many Jews are not exactly so holy either, it will require both groups to make a change.
    Your example simply doesn’t stand up. I can say “we Calvinists suffered from discrimination in the past.” Or, “we the inhabitants of Pécs are unhappy about the state of our theater.” Thus, a Hungarian of Jewish extraction certainly say that “we Jews do this or that.” Or not to this or that. All the groups mentioned above are part of the Hungarians. They are not outside of the nation.

    There are 3 types of Hungarian Jews.
    1) Ones that regard themselves as Jewish first, and Hungarian only distant second.
    2) Jews that have partially assimilated, but still cling onto their Jewishness, which usually comes first.
    3) Totally assimilated ones, some who even support the Hungarian far right, like Béla Imrédy or Csanád Szegedi (before his outing).

    You say Jews are just a religion, but there are only a few thousand Jews by religion, however there are around 50 000 to 150 000 Jews by ethnicity, how come they dont see themselves as Hungarians?

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  21. Eva S. Balogh :

    Laszlo :

    If you want an answer to this, look at your compatriot, Petofi’s posts, who talks about Us (The Jews) and them (the lowly Hungarian goy cattle).
    Anti-semites are wrong, but many Jews are not exactly so holy either, it will require both groups to make a change.
    Your example simply doesn’t stand up. I can say “we Calvinists suffered from discrimination in the past.” Or, “we the inhabitants of Pécs are unhappy about the state of our theater.” Thus, a Hungarian of Jewish extraction certainly say that “we Jews do this or that.” Or not to this or that. All the groups mentioned above are part of the Hungarians. They are not outside of the nation.

    Petofi does have a bit of a history though. I’ve taken him to task at least twice because of his casual racist assumptions re the Roma, for example.

    If we are against racism, we have to be against ALL racism.

    And in case this sounds too glib, it has caught out those of us on the left in the UK several times – for instance, after years of defending the Asian and African immigrants from racism by the indigenous white population, we then struggled to deal with the depressing discovery that both communities expressed strong racist views against the other (and us!).

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  22. Eva S. Balogh :
    As Dénes rightly pointed out this particular church is not one of the mill kind. It is a liberal organization. The fact that ATV exists is thanks to them.

    Thanks Dénes and Éva. I still feel a little uneasy about demonstrations organised by churches, but without ATV Hungary really would be in the dark ages, so credit where credit is due.

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  23. Jano :
    I don’t really understand where this flag-aversion is coming from. Americans…

    Yes, Americans overdo it (especially Tea-Partisans), but they’re not the ones in whose parliament MPs are proposing race-based lists. They’re not the ones with Numerus Clausus, Horthy, Szalasi, the exterminations and Gyongyospata in their past (and present). In Monaco flags may be innocuous, because they have been detoxified. But unlike the Monegasques, the Magyars still have some demons to exorcise.

    Besides, I wasn’t actually speaking about the literal flags in the hands of the demonstrators but the figurative ones in Bajnai’s speech.

    waving flags on a protest simply symbolizes national unity and I see nothing wrong with that. Patriotism is a good thing as long as it doesn’t turn into nationalism…

    Simply?

    And do you have an objective dividing line between patriotism and nationalism? They strike me as pretty much synonymous. Good cop and bad cop…

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  24. Steven, do you have a problem with the Hungarian flag?

    Are you one of those liberals who wants to erase history, historical figures, national symbols, and eradicate national identity, all in the name of “fighting racism”?

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  25. What this demonstration shows is that “Faith Assembly” is filling a gigantic political vacuum on the left in Hungary. In following Hungarian news and talking to Hungarian friends over the last few years I’ve been mystified at the passivity of otherwise perfectly decent people in the face of one fascist provocation after another. Despite the stupid flag-waving and creepy christian-Zionist church connection (Faith Assembly’s silence the mass-slaughter of Palestinians by the IDF), even despite the false equation of communism with fascism, it did my heart good to watch that huge throng chanting ‘Nacik haza!’.

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  26. Steve: I’m sorry you see it that way, there is a big difference between patriotism which is a healthy, mature positive expression of your attachment to your cultural identity and the place that you feel you belong to while nationalism is sovinistic and xenophobic in it’s character.

    The Hungarian flag has never been toxified. If the Nazis had chosen eyeglasses as their symbol, would only Nazi’s go without contact lenses now? There are toxified symbols like the Árpád stripe fans or the arrow cross, the flag is not one of them.

    “Besides, I wasn’t actually speaking about the literal flags in the hands of the demonstrators but the figurative ones in Bajnai’s speech.”

    In this case I have no idea what you mean.

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  27. Eva, Paul: I’m glad for this demonstration whoever organize it but HGY is indeed pretty scary. If you like pain, feel free to watch a “Vidám Vasárnap”, hopefully you’ll be lucky to see one with some exorcism (you can look that up on youtube if you wish).

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  28. There was a time, some years ago, that one saw flags everywhere in the US–gas stations, grocery stores, everywhere. It felt like a rising nationalism and I became quite averse to images of my flag. That said, in any gathering that I attended to protest an action by a representative or intention of my government, I would make sure to have a flag: as a sign of my allegiance to the US and its government. I take all the Hungarian flags in this latest demonstration the same way.

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  29. Laszlo: “You say Jews are just a religion, but there are only a few thousand Jews by religion, however there are around 50 000 to 150 000 Jews by ethnicity, how come they dont see themselves as Hungarians?”

    No, I’m not saying this. I gave examples outside of religious groups also. If you simply don’t want to understand what I’m saying because you don’t want to. But here is another example: “We the original German settlers in Pécs have been here in the last three hundred centuries.” Do you want to say that therefore I’m for example not a Hungarian?

    Otherwise, I’m just amazed how much you know about the Jewish community. Sorting them into several groups. Real talent. Perhaps first you should learn a thing or two about Hungarian Jewry’s history. The literature is vast.

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  30. Eva, its not about how *I* perceive them, but about how they see themselves, and how they act.
    How many Hungarians with German ancestry see themselves as Germans, and not Hungarians?

    Another problem of mine are the Roma. When a Roma does something bad, he is a Hungarian, but when something bad happens to him (say, Guardsmen scare him), he is a Roma.

    I also have a question about this:
    “At the very least when Róbert Csorba and his five-year-old son Robika were killed in Tatárszentgyörgy. Mrs. Tibor Nagy and József Nagy in Nagycsécse. Jenő Kóka in Tiszalök and Mária Balogh in Kisléta.”
    How come no mention of Kata Bándy, Marian Kozma, Lajos Szögi (Olaszliszka lynching) and plenty of others.
    How come the Left, or Jews never protest against this, but if a Hungarian even looks at a Roma in the wrong way, it is classed as “neo-nazi hate crime”?

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  31. I never felt like Petofi is looking down on me. Also I agree with almost everything what he says.

    WE, the people under the red, white and green flag killed 500k of our countrymen.

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  32. Laszlo: “How come no mention of Kata Bándy, Marian Kozma, Lajos Szögi (Olaszliszka lynching) and plenty of others.

    Again you are mixing up the hokedli with the nokedli. Kozma was killed in a brawl in a disco. It wasn’t a hate crime. Kata Bandy was killed late at night not because she was a Hungarian. The serial killers of those Gypsies mentioned by Bajnai were killed because of their ethnicity.

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  33. Laszlo :
    Another problem of mine are the Roma. When a Roma does something bad, he is a Hungarian, but when something bad happens to him (say, Guardsmen scare him), he is a Roma.

    1. If they commit a crime, who are they if not Hungarian?
    2. Can you please remind me why are the guardsmen are “scaring” them?

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  34. Eva S. Balogh :
    The serial killers of those Gypsies mentioned by Bajnai were killed because of their ethnicity.

    Were they? If a Hungarian commits a crime against a Roma, for whatever reason it might be, the press will always report is as an anti-Roma neo-nazi hatecrime, always.

    “WE, the people under the red, white and green flag killed 500k of our countrymen.”
    We didn’t, Horthy his best to protect them, Hungary was a safe haven for Jews, many seeked refuge here from anti-Jewish pogroms in Romania.

    Horthy had NO choice, if it wasn’t for him, Hungary would have been attacked, annexed and treated just like Poland or Yugoslavia here, and no Jews would survive.
    The Jews who are still alive in Hungary today can thank their existence to Horthy, who dragged out the deportations until they were simply unavoidable.
    If he outright refused to comply, and didn’t pretend to be anti-semitic, the Nazi backed Arrow Cross would have come into power MUCH sooner, would you want that?

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  35. Mutt :

    Laszlo :
    Another problem of mine are the Roma. When a Roma does something bad, he is a Hungarian, but when something bad happens to him (say, Guardsmen scare him), he is a Roma.

    1. If they commit a crime, who are they if not Hungarian?
    2. Can you please remind me why are the guardsmen are “scaring” them?

    1) If they do a bad deed, the press, the news, etc say they are Hungarians, if they do a good deed, they are reported as Roma.

    2) The thing is, they aren’t, those events were blown out of proportion. Old ladies who live in North East Hungary on the other hand, are very scared at night.

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  36. Please don’t feed the latest troll aka Laszlo!

    It’s always the same: Jews, Roma, Gays etc are the problem – never the “Christian Hungarians” …

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  37. It’s always the same: Jews, Roma, Gays etc are the problem – never the “Christian Hungarians” …

    Don’t put words into my mouth, “Christian” Hungarians, like this ‘Hit Gyülekezete’ are indeed a problem, since there is nothing Christian, or Hungarian about them.
    Ottokár Prohászka must be rolling in his grave by now if this is what passes off as “Christianity” these days.

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  38. László: “Were they?”

    Yes they were, didn’t you read the news? There were killers who went out to kill random Roma’s. Kata Bándy was killed by a murderer happened to be a gipsy because she refused to have sex with her attacker, not because he was Hungarian. Marian Kozma was killed because a mobster who happened to be a gipsy picked a fight with him, not because he was Hungarian (which he wasn’t, he was Romanian). Maybe Szögi Lajos is the closest to a hate crime but yet again it was an aggressive family’s (happened to be gypsies) rage, not a racial attack. These are all unspeakable acts in general and I’m all in for a demonstration against violent crimes in general, but that’s still a different category than hate-crimes.

    By the way, the fact that we do know the racial origins of the criminals in the above cases contradicts your claim in the first case.

    There was a gypsy hate crime, when a family was attacked by a group of gypsies shouting death to the Hungarians, guess what, they were arrested and convicted, actually being the only ones so far (at least to my knowledge). So what exactly are you talking about?

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  39. Laszlo :
    Steven, do you have a problem with the Hungarian flag?
    Are you one of those liberals who wants to erase history, historical figures, national symbols, and eradicate national identity, all in the name of “fighting racism”?

    Too funny.

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  40. Laszlo :
    Steven, do you have a problem with the Hungarian flag?
    Are you one of those liberals who wants to erase history, historical figures, national symbols, and eradicate national identity, all in the name of “fighting racism”?

    It always amuses me when the far-right reveal how little they know of their own history.

    Although the colours of the Hungarian flag are historical and date back before Kossuth’s time, the fact that it is a tricolour is a direct reflection of its origins as a revolutionary, and more importantly, republican, symbol. It is modelled directly on the flag of the French Republic, seen then as the beacon of freedom and progress.

    When Orbán parades in front of a wall of Hungarian flags, he is actually standing in front of massed republican symbols!

    But then László probably also believes that St István was crowned with the Holy Crown and all white Hungarians are directly descended from Árpád and the ten tribes.

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  41. Just to give you an idea here’s a comment from pol.hu when these guys feel free to say what they are “thinking”:

    “That was Christianity, not “judeo-Christianity”, which is not a religion btw, but a Zionist satanic cult.”

    Nice, isn’t it ?

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  42. I don’t normally encourage troll-bating, but “if a Hungarian even looks at a Roma in the wrong way, it is classed as “neo-nazi hate crime”” floored me completely.

    We are beyond politics and straying a long way into psychiatry.

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  43. wolfi :
    Just to give you an idea here’s a comment from pol.hu when these guys feel free to say what they are “thinking”:
    “That was Christianity, not “judeo-Christianity”, which is not a religion btw, but a Zionist satanic cult.”
    Nice, isn’t it ?

    It must real twist these loonies up that Christ was a Jew!

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  44. Paul :

    Laszlo :
    Steven, do you have a problem with the Hungarian flag?
    Are you one of those liberals who wants to erase history, historical figures, national symbols, and eradicate national identity, all in the name of “fighting racism”?

    It always amuses me when the far-right reveal how little they know of their own history.
    Although the colours of the Hungarian flag are historical and date back before Kossuth’s time, the fact that it is a tricolour is a direct reflection of its origins as a revolutionary, and more importantly, republican, symbol. It is modelled directly on the flag of the French Republic, seen then as the beacon of freedom and progress.
    When Orbán parades in front of a wall of Hungarian flags, he is actually standing in front of massed republican symbols!
    But then László probably also believes that St István was crowned with the Holy Crown and all white Hungarians are directly descended from Árpád and the ten tribes.

    Ps. Kossuth was a far cry from the the MSZP-SzDSz-DK.
    In fact, I am waiting for the day when Gyurcsány protests to have “Nazi Kossuth” banned…

    And Kossuth was a Regent, and Hungary was still a Kingdom, but you are right, I need an ignorant Brit to tell me about my history.

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  45. Pity he’s gone, he was by far the best Troll we’ve had in ages, almost as much fun as ‘Johnny’.

    I shall miss such gems as ““That was Christianity, not “judeo-Christianity”, which is not a religion btw, but a Zionist satanic cult.””

    Do these people actually understand a fraction of what they are talking about? (rhetorical!)

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  46. It’s really amazing, that whenever any kind of wrongdoing comes to surface which could be connected somehow to one or other politic- ethnic- or religious groups, the next thing is, that the opposing side start drawing parallels, counting and weighting every aspect immediately – as it would make any difference, regarding the subject at hands..!

    Why should the killing of one innocent [ethnic Hungarian] justify the killing of another innocent [ethnic Roma], while killing anybody at all is terribly wrong, regardless of the reason?

    Why should PM Orban’s ignorant remark be accepted, just because there are- or aren’t some of the Jewish people who has kind of identity-problems, – let alone the half-wit categorizing above:“There are 3 types of Hungarian Jews” – what nobody should have in a sane society?

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  47. Paul: Do these people actually understand a fraction of what they are talking about? (rhetorical!)

    But how sophisticated and wise they sound. As if it was a genuine observation nobody has ever considered before… No wonder they fall in love with their own (imagined) intellectual greatness.

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  48. spectator :
    It’s really amazing, that whenever any kind of wrongdoing comes to surface which could be connected somehow to one or other politic- ethnic- or religious groups, the next thing is, that the opposing side start drawing parallels, counting and weighting every aspect immediately – as it would make any difference, regarding the subject at hands..!

    This is one of the typical logical fallacies like “ad hominem”. My favourite is: Stalin and Hitler both say thattwo and two makes four – I can’t believe that …

    Some times ago I found a list on this site:
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
    BTW the site is maintained to teach about the Holocaust …

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  49. Hi wolfi,
    Thanks for the link!
    I remember having the app too a few hundred years ago 😉

    Honestly, I’ve expected that some of the ‘experts’ on the field going to explain in earnest, how they thinking. And no, I don’t believe in Santa Claus (either)!

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