Fidesz and Zsolt Bayer: A close connection

I’m afraid I will have to return to Zsolt Bayer’s unspeakable article in Magyar Hírlap because since its appearance on January 5 a lot has happened.

In most civilized countries the editor-in-chief of a paper wouldn’t have allowed that incendiary piece to appear in print in the first place. But if the editor-in-chief made a mistake and published it, he would at the very first possible opportunity have apologized and distanced the paper from the author’s hate speech. Moreover, in a civilized country Bayer, the senior editor of the paper, would most likely have been summarily fired.

Well, it didn’t quite work out that way. Zsolt Bayer was given an opportunity to explain his first article “Who shouldn’t exist!” He offered up “Truly, what should be done?” In it, Bayer explained that naturally he could have written the original piece in a civilized manner but he chose this offensive style because he wanted to wake society up to the grave problem facing Hungary. He doesn’t want to kill anyone; he just wants “order.”  Finally, he brought up some poetic images including a Gyula Illyés line that he mistakenly attributed to Mihály Babits.

On the same day as Bayer’s explanation Gábor Széles, the owner of Magyar Hírlap, and István Stefka, the editor-in-chief, published a “Declaration.” It was a typical Hungarian right-wing rant that started with Ferenc Gyurcsány’s despicable treatment of Magyar Hírlap in 2009. It reminded its readers that after another horrendous article appeared in the paper the prime minister called on government offices not to subscribe to the paper. Thus, claims the “Declaration,” Gyurcsány violated the sacred principle of freedom of expression. It is no secret, the “Declaration” continues, that with its attack on Magyar Hírlap the opposition wants to break up the unity of the Right.

At the end, however, they apologized for any unintended affront and promised not to publish anything that might give rise to hate on either the left or the right.

Well, one could say that although the owner and the editor-in-chief didn’t admit that Bayer’s piece went beyond what can be considered legitimate freedom of expression and actually can be construed as an incitement against an ethnic group which is a crime in Hungary, at least they admitted that the article rightly caused consternation.

It would have been wise if Magyar Hírlap had stopped right there. The incident had already caused an upheaval in Hungary and abroad. Since Zsolt Bayer is one of the original founders of Fidesz and a personal friend of Viktor Orbán, it might have been a good idea to drop the whole topic as soon as possible and hope that the incident would be forgotten. But no, this is not how things work in Hungary.

By this morning the management of the paper decided to retract their semi-apology and stand by their man. Not only that, but for good measure they even dragged Fidesz and the government into this sordid business.

The original “Declaration” was taken off the paper’s website and instead a new “Declaration” was published. The tone of this new one is not at all conciliatory. On the contrary, it is wildly belligerent. The headline reads: “Answers to the Attacks.” The new version repeats the cardinal sin of Gyurcsány in 2009 when apparently friends of Magyar Hírlap demonstrated on Kossuth Square for their favorite paper which “in the last six years has supported democracy, freedom, and independence.”

The article by Zsolt Bayer is not the real question, Széles and Stefka claim.  The real problem is the left-liberal damage that has been inflicted on the country (országrontás) that led to the current conditions. Murderers and beastly, cruel criminals pillage in many parts of the country, but the liberal elite wants to cover up these crimes. What the liberals are doing is a form of connivance which, in their opinion, is worse than the original crime itself. Some members of the opposition consider anti-Semitism and racism the real problem in the country while they don’t allow the authorities to clamp down on the crimes of Gypsies. Magyar Hírlap‘s stand is that “There is no forgiveness for murderers. Even less for those who shield them. Magyar Hírlap rejects the latest witch hunt of the post-communists and at the same time asks the readers and supporters of the newspaper to stand by our senior editor, our paper and our national government working on our behalf.

What happened between yesterday and today? One explanation for this change of heart came this afternoon from György Balavány. I don’t think that I’ve mentioned his name before. He is a right-wing newspaperman who worked for Magyar Nemzet for ten years. But a few months ago he left the paper and since then has become a critic of the Orbán government. He seems to me somebody who likes to be in opposition. Magyar Nemzet was fine as long as it was an opposition paper but when it became a “government paper” Balavány had difficulty adjusting to the new situation. Now he writes for atlatszo.hu and has a blog, balavanyposzt.blog.hu.

Old friends: Zsolt Bayer and Viktor Orbán having fun

Old friends: Zsolt Bayer and Viktor Orbán having fun

Balavány told the following story on his blog this afternoon. Zsolt Bayer used to work for Magyar Nemzet (2002-2007) before he became senior editor of Magyar Hírlap.  According to Balavány, Bayer was not liked at the paper and his colleagues considered him “the man of the Party.” After Bayer left for Magyar Hírlap in 2007, as a result of some administrative mix-up Balavány inherited Bayer’s telephone number. One day a voice on the other end said: “Hi, listen, here is something, write about it, may I tell you about it now?” At this point Balavány introduced himself and asked with whom he was speaking. It was Gábor Kubatov. At this point Kubatov laughed and asked for Bayer’s telephone number.

Balavány closes his post this way: “Yes, we knew that he is a Proud Member of the Party but we didn’t know that he works under such direct orders. Zsolt is not a simple national-conservative reporter who criticizes left-liberal politics and politicians. Zsolt is the Voice of the Party. That is the case. So, we know that we cannot expect any distancing here on the part of Fidesz and the government.”

I suspect that Balavány is correct. Fidesz decided that there will be no retreat here. No apologies. It might even be possible that the original order came from Fidesz to write something on the latest brawl involving Gypsies but somehow the final product was a little too rough around the edges. Now somewhere on the highest level of Fidesz the decision was made not to bend but to stand by the spirit of Bayer’s original article. I suspect that Fidesz is in this shameful affair up to its collective neck. (If guilt can be collective, perhaps a metaphorical neck can be as well.)

69 comments

  1. Yes, a muck connection. [It makes you pine for pizza connections…]

    However, Éva, there is no collective guilt, unless you can name everyone in the collective who is as guilty as everyone else in the collective. – This is actually an ongoing ethical discussion in philosophy. But if you think about it, to attribute ‘collective guilt’ is practically impossible. And from several other aspects, it’s not desirable that there is something as collective guilt. It softens the responsibility of the individual.

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  2. If the opposition were clever they would encourage this sort of thing and push Fidesz/Orbán into madder and more extreme actions/statements. Every time something like this happens, more people outside Hungary become aware of what’s going on, the pressure on the EU/US/etc to do something increases, and, most importantly of all, more people in Hungary start to realise that instead of the Fidesz revolution they voted for, they’ve just got a bunch of power crazed madmen.

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  3. Minusio :
    And from several other aspects, it’s not desirable that there is something as collective guilt. It softens the responsibility of the individual.

    100% agree! This “collective guilt” philosophy that drives Fidesz against any situation and take advantage of it when they can. THe “collective guilt” goes hand in hand with the “others did it and I can too”. Fidesz lives under those “rules”.

    Eva wrote ” Bayer explained that naturally he could have written the original piece in a civilized manner but he chose this offensive style because he wanted to wake society up to the grave problem facing Hungary.” and so he did. I think now the whole world is woken up to see, how ugly are the minds of some Fidesz supporters, and that there is no difference between Jobbik and Fidesz. Next time, when Fidesz preaches about “if you do not support us Jobbik will take over”, the answer is clear “Jobbik already did, and it is in the Fidesz headquarters”. There is no difference.

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  4. Not only in Hungary. But perfected in Budapest. On the pages of the Magyar Hirlap.
    Too many noble ladies and gentlemen of the old world (the Horthy era), sidelined by the post WWII regimes, will enjoy the patriotic restoration delivered by FID$$ to the very end of a Gorbachov style implosion.
    The Horthy recipe is at work again.
    It demands an unbelievable sacrifice, and is punishing all Hungarian children and grandchildren.
    A few generations failed before, and will continue failing along the false path to glory.
    It is a bad Hungarian tradition. A Greek, an Egyptian, an Iranian, and a Chadian drama.

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  5. Fidesz has failed to bring economic or social order to Hungary as voters thought they would do, due to their failure to understand the complexities of the problems and their own incompetence in bringing solutions. I think Bayer realises their failure and jumping on the “Gypsy crime” moral panic bandwagon is a way of gaining maximum publicity.

    Maybe the (slimy) trail doesn’t lead back to Orbán but to someone like Köver, who’s more publicly right-wing and also maybe feels that his party needs to focus on taking practical steps to solve economic and social problems if it’s to avoid a humiliating reverse in next year’s elections. He might have a point – with these latest antics and calls to expel Bayer from the party, Orbán will only look weak and indecisive if he takes the “do nothing” option.

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  6. If guilt can be collective

    It cannot. There’s no such thing as collective guilt. Even if a crime is committed by a group, each individual within the group should be held accountable for his or her own deeds.

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  7. A fideszes Lánchíd Rádióban csak a diktatúra névvel van gond, tartalmilag nincs kifogásuk…
    “Betelefonáló Néni: Én nagyon szeretem a miniszterelnököt, az Orbán Viktort.
    Műsorvezető: Igen, igen!
    B.N.: És a kormányt is nagyon szeretem
    Műsorvezető (vidáman): ühümm, ühümm
    B.N.: Mert én bevallom őszintén, diktatúrapárti vagyok.
    Műsorvezető (levegőért kapkodva): Khm, már elnézést…
    B.N.: És ez a kormány pontosan úgy csinálja, ahogy kell, diktatórikus intézkedéseket hoz, erre van szükség
    Műsorvezető (teljesen összezavarodva): Na de a szóhasználat, hogy úgy mondjam, én azt gondolom, hogy ez talán így egy ki…
    B.N. (közbevág): Mert mi volt a felsőoktatási törvény, ha nem szükségszerűen diktatórikus intézkedés, mi volt a bankadó, ha nem diktatórikus (tovább sorolja)
    Műsorvezető (kétségbeesetten): De kérem, ezt a szót ne használjuk, mondjuk inkább azt, hogy rend vagy értékközpontúság.
    B.N.: Jó, mondjuk.” A beszélgetés a keddi Lecsó című műsorban hangzott el. Via: vampirpillango.tumblr.com

    Google translation:
    The Fidesz Chain Radio dictatorship name only is okay, there is no objection to the content …
    “Phoned Aunt: I really like the prime minister, Viktor Orban.
    Presenter: Yes, yes!
    B.N.: And the government also love
    Presenter (cheerfully): Uh-huh, Uh-huh
    BN: Because I confess frankly, I am pro-dictatorship.
    Presenter (gasping for breath): Um, excuse me …
    BN: And this government is doing exactly as it should, to dictatorial measures, are needed for this
    Presenter (completely confused): But the use of the word, so to speak, I think that this is perhaps a way out …
    B.N. (interrupts): Because we had the law on higher education, if not necessarily dictatorial measures, we had the tax credit, if not dictatorial (more lists)
    Presenter (in despair): But please do not use this word, we say that system or value-orientation.
    B.N.: Okay, let’s say. ”
    The talk of the show on Tuesday’s Ratatouille was said. Via: vampirpillango.tumblr.com

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  8. Ron: Perhaps this is the place to remind that Orban “didn’t fight against the dictatorship but against those people who maintained that dictatorship”.

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  9. dvhr :
    Ron: Perhaps this is the place to remind that Orban “didn’t fight against the dictatorship but against those people who maintained that dictatorship”.

    Really? Who said this and when? Ahh so many questions?

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  10. Ron :

    dvhr :
    Ron: Perhaps this is the place to remind that Orban “didn’t fight against the dictatorship but against those people who maintained that dictatorship”.

    Really? Who said this and when? Ahh so many questions?

    He himself. About a month ago.

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  11. Probably it is juts a sidetrack, but if someone is interested what is the new, splendid Friends of Hungary Foundation doing, and how it is cooridnating hate campaigns against thos, who do not abide to their wviews on certain issues just check these links:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=410943168983969&set=a.234109026667385.54939.233600616718226&type=1

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=411176332293986&set=a.234109026667385.54939.233600616718226&type=1&theater

    Tha facebook profile’s admin is a certain Dávid Bencsik and the cover photo shows that it is connected to Új Társadalom Szalon,
    http://www.ujtarsadalomszalon.hu/alapito.htm ahwt is an enterprise of the KDNP and Bencsik, who at the moment acts as representative of Budapest in Brussels, belongs to its founders.

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  12. Gábor :
    Probably it is juts a sidetrack, but if someone is interested what is the new, splendid Friends of Hungary Foundation doing, and how it is cooridnating hate campaigns against thos, who do not abide to their wviews on certain issues just check these links:
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=410943168983969&set=a.234109026667385.54939.233600616718226&type=1
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=411176332293986&set=a.234109026667385.54939.233600616718226&type=1&theater
    Tha facebook profile’s admin is a certain Dávid Bencsik and the cover photo shows that it is connected to Új Társadalom Szalon,
    http://www.ujtarsadalomszalon.hu/alapito.htm ahwt is an enterprise of the KDNP and Bencsik, who at the moment acts as representative of Budapest in Brussels, belongs to its founders.

    Warning: if you go to the ‘Friends of Hungary’ website, you might end up wanting to bang your head against the nearest hard object. There are three reasons for this.

    1) ‘Friends of Hungary’ is an organisation which will cost the Hungarian taxpayer 4 billion forints (!)
    2) It’s partisan political whitewashing would put a Soviet newspaper to shame.
    3) Hidden among the gushing ‘isn’t Hungary wonderful’ stuff and ‘We love other countries too!’ are rather contentious articles calling for the independence of the Szekelyfold, and this gem that the Hungarians invented the word “Hello”.

    “Tivadar Puskás said “hallo” into the telephone receiver for the first time in the world, or rather he said “hallom” (that is to say “I hear” in Hungarian), so the phrase originates from this Hungarian word.”

    Sorry, I have to go and bang my head now.

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  13. London Calling!

    I’ve been banging my head for a long time Bowen!

    When Hungarians say ‘Hello’ – they mean goodbye!

    When I say ‘Hello’ I mean ‘Hello’!

    So typical conversations with Hungarians start with ‘Hello’ and end with ‘Hello’!

    (And yes ‘Hello’ was invented by………… Thomas Edison! – It must be true it features on QI!)

    More head banging I fear!

    Regards

    Charlie

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  14. Eva S. Balogh :
    I took a look at the Friends of Hungary site on FB. Unreal!

    But it was just transfered to the subordination of the Prime Minister’s Office and the admin is a guy who poses with Semjén and Harrach as co-founder’s of the Új Társadalom Szalon, that is also on the page. Furthremore, the admin guy can easily be idenified as a politician of Ifjúsági Kereszténydemokrata Szövetség. And what tehy aer doing with Eric Weaver is not much better than kuruc.info-s hate campaigns! It is hard not to conclude that what they are doing is smei-offial government policy…

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  15. If “National Narcissism” is such a threat–perhaps I’ll read it. Amazon has the paperback listed for $66.19 and a used copy for $131.50. So, no.

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  16. Paul :
    If the opposition were clever they would encourage this sort of thing and push Fidesz/Orbán into madder and more extreme actions/statements. Every time something like this happens, more people outside Hungary become aware of what’s going on, the pressure on the EU/US/etc to do something increases, and, most importantly of all, more people in Hungary start to realise that instead of the Fidesz revolution they voted for, they’ve just got a bunch of power crazed madmen.

    I am afraid, the opposition does not have to encourage this sort of thing, that would be unethical and also counterproductive. Fidesz/Orbán are going to protect Zsolt Bayer, because they want the “rightwing unity” the Magyar Hirlap propagates. This is a dangerous road not so much because of what will be the reaction abroad, but because of the dangers of pogroms in Hungary, directed against the Roma.

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  17. I know this is politically incorrect even to surmise, and this article was about gypsies, but can it be that Zsolt Bayer is Jewish like Csanád Szegedi (of Jobbik fame) was, or earlier István Lovas (if anybody remembers his name, he stareted being openly anti-semitic in the second half of the nineties in Magyar Nemzet and until it turned out that he received the Israeli passport which he did not eventualy pick up at the embassy, he was very influential, later left Hungary)? People which such sick hatred as Bayer often actually hate themselves, as we have seen in the US with many hardliner anti-gay politicians who turned out to be gay. Also being such a loyal party person (as desrcibed by Balavany) could be the manifesttation of an extreme desire to be accepted, to be liked, after earlier problems with acceptance. Just a thougt. Bayer certainly seems a mental case.

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  18. Fellini :
    I know this is politically incorrect even to surmise, and this article was about gypsies, but can it be that Zsolt Bayer is Jewish like Csanád Szegedi (of Jobbik fame) was, or earlier István Lovas (if anybody remembers his name, he stareted being openly anti-semitic in the second half of the nineties in Magyar Nemzet and until it turned out that he received the Israeli passport which he did not eventualy pick up at the embassy, he was very influential, later left Hungary)? People which such sick hatred as Bayer often actually hate themselves, as we have seen in the US with many hardliner anti-gay politicians who turned out to be gay. Also being such a loyal party person (as desrcibed by Balavany) could be the manifesttation of an extreme desire to be accepted, to be liked, after earlier problems with acceptance. Just a thougt. Bayer certainly seems a mental case.

    I must agree with you. Not with the point that Bayer is Jewish or such, but that such hatred is coming from the “inner demons”, self-loathing and low self-esteem..
    Your “philosophy” were greatly demonstrated in two movies, American Beauty (Col. Frank Fitts) and in Schindler’s List (Amon Goeth). Most Fidesz “dignitaries” are reincarnation of Hendrik Hoefgen from Mephisto.

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  19. Bowen :

    Eva S. Balogh :
    I took a look at the Friends of Hungary site on FB. Unreal!

    I’m going to start a FB page called ‘Enemies of Hungary’. Can I get state-funding for this?

    Oh, but you can!
    Only have to find the suitable ‘state’ though…

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  20. Lutra lutra :
    Fidesz has failed to bring economic or social order to Hungary as voters thought they would do, due to their failure to understand the complexities of the problems and their own incompetence in bringing solutions. I think Bayer realises their failure and jumping on the “Gypsy crime” moral panic bandwagon is a way of gaining maximum publicity.
    Maybe the (slimy) trail doesn’t lead back to Orbán but to someone like Köver, who’s more publicly right-wing and also maybe feels that his party needs to focus on taking practical steps to solve economic and social problems if it’s to avoid a humiliating reverse in next year’s elections. He might have a point – with these latest antics and calls to expel Bayer from the party, Orbán will only look weak and indecisive if he takes the “do nothing” option.

    Actually the trail leads back straight, at least abroad.
    A Swedish paper referring to the event as:

    “A friend of the Prime Minister described the Roma as animal”

    – and identify Bayer as one of the original founders of the ruling party.
    While it’s far from being a global effect, it makes fairly clear, that from the outside this seen as a shameful ‘Hungarian’ event, not as only a lone loony crackhead writing his “own opinion”.

    Which mean to me too, that if Orban won’t cut the umbilical cord with his beloved friend formally, he will drag him and the whole PeaceMarch bunch down into the – otherwise well deserved – cesspit.

    The original article btw.:
    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article16039537.ab

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  21. Fellini :
    I know this is politically incorrect even to surmise, and this article was about gypsies, but can it be that Zsolt Bayer is Jewish like Csanád Szegedi (of Jobbik fame) was, or earlier István Lovas (if anybody remembers his name, he stareted being openly anti-semitic in the second half of the nineties in Magyar Nemzet and until it turned out that he received the Israeli passport which he did not eventualy pick up at the embassy, he was very influential, later left Hungary)? People which such sick hatred as Bayer often actually hate themselves, as we have seen in the US with many hardliner anti-gay politicians who turned out to be gay. Also being such a loyal party person (as desrcibed by Balavany) could be the manifesttation of an extreme desire to be accepted, to be liked, after earlier problems with acceptance. Just a thougt. Bayer certainly seems a mental case.

    This might surprise you, but not only Jewish people can be antisemitic…

    Look at the many ethnic German names in Jobbik, KDNP, presidents after Mr Goncz and #5 card carrying member of Fidesz. But I am not anti-German. One can easily be antisemitic with an echte Hungarian name too, in the Hungary of 2013.

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  22. Fellini :Bayer certainly seems a mental case.

    Yes, he most probably is. That’s why he gets hired to do stuff like this.

    I’ve mentioned this before, but my wife often remembers accepting a lift from Bayer in Transylvania (long story) and after listening to his furious out-of-the blue rants about Roma and Jews, and seeing the baseball bat on the back seat, asked to be let out of the car and walk the rest of the distance.

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  23. spectator :

    Which mean to me too, that if Orban won’t cut the umbilical cord with his beloved friend formally, he will drag him and the whole PeaceMarch bunch down into the – otherwise well deserved – cesspit.

    Cut the umbilical cord? Today, Fidesz’s spokesperson defended Bayer, and called MSZP (and everyone) who somehow does not agree with the case presented Bayer, supporters of criminals and murderers, referring of course the culprits. Never mind that one of the victim was also Roma, and never mind in fact it was Orban and Fidesz who released a murderous criminal from jail and beside catapulting him to stardom, they reignited a crises between two countries. I hate to say but the people of Fidesz are either stupid, they think others are as stupid as they are, or both.

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  24. Mrs Bowen tells me more about Bayer and his baseball bat. Apparently it was in the colours of the Hungarian flag, and Bayer said it was for the Jews, the Roma and the Romanians. Every topic seemed to turn to the Jews or Roma and bring out some hateful remark. The man obviously has issues.

    This was back in 2005 and even then Bayer was hitting the car steering wheel and ranting that they’d get rid of the Jews and Roma if they won the elections.

    One wonders whether Bayer shares such views with his friend Orban when they meet up.

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  25. Bowen :
    Mrs Bowen tells me more about Bayer and his baseball bat. Apparently it was in the colours of the Hungarian flag, and Bayer said it was for the Jews, the Roma and the Romanians. Every topic seemed to turn to the Jews or Roma and bring out some hateful remark. The man obviously has issues.
    This was back in 2005 and even then Bayer was hitting the car steering wheel and ranting that they’d get rid of the Jews and Roma if they won the elections.
    One wonders whether Bayer shares such views with his friend Orban when they meet up.

    What is Ironic is that Bayer himself is half Jewish, and looks it too.

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  26. Lecso :

    Bowen :
    Mrs Bowen tells me more about Bayer and his baseball bat. Apparently it was in the colours of the Hungarian flag, and Bayer said it was for the Jews, the Roma and the Romanians. Every topic seemed to turn to the Jews or Roma and bring out some hateful remark. The man obviously has issues.
    This was back in 2005 and even then Bayer was hitting the car steering wheel and ranting that they’d get rid of the Jews and Roma if they won the elections.
    One wonders whether Bayer shares such views with his friend Orban when they meet up.

    What is Ironic is that Bayer himself is half Jewish, and looks it too.

    If it is true, I wouldn’t call it ironic but sad. What difference does it make anyway?

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  27. Well, this is totally depressing – especially if it’s true that Bayer has Jewish ancestors …

    As a member of a “minority” he should know better!

    So to lighten this up and (completely OT!) on a totally different note in answer to Charlie and Cheshire Cat:

    Our masseuse used to greet us with a friendly “Tschüss”, which she thought was the equivalent of “szia” until I told her that we Germans use this only as “Bye-bye” …

    And she had wondered why German customers looked at her strangely when she greeted them like this!

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  28. Lecso :

    Does anyone know if there are any links, connections between a Bayer and Jobbik?

    Well, yes and no. His good friend, András Bencsik, is officially a Fidesz member or supporter but he and his wife were heavily involved with the Hungarian Guard. I think the wife came up with their uniform. Bencsik was also one of the organizers of Peace March. Magyar Hirlap in ideological terms is very close to Jobbik although on paper it is supposedly supporting Fidesz.

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  29. As for Bayer’s Jewishness. I have no idea. But one thing is sure, it is very unlikely that his father was Jewish. Daddy’s Christian name is Othmár. Zsolt was born in 1963 so I figure that daddy was born sometime in the late 1930s. A Hungarian-German who named his son Othmár had to be a fairly devoted man to the original Vaterland.

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  30. Bayer is not Jewish. I don’t remember where I read it (perhaps in Magyar Narancs about four years ago) but he once quoted admitting (to Deutsch Tamas, no less) that his background is Schwab German and Slovak, which is rather normal for a lot of Hungarians. Hiding one’s minority background is widespread among reborn “Nagy Magyars.” In the magazine 168 Ora Bayer explained in 2010: “Bayer a cikkel kapcsolatban kifejtette: „Megpróbálom ezt a körmondatot lefordítani magyarra. Ez arról szólna, ugye, hogy én zsidó vagyok, és azért beszélek a sváb nagyapámról oly sokat, mert nem szeretném, ha kiderülne, hogy anyai ágon nagy baj van.” http://www.168ora.hu/itthon/bayer-a-jobbiknak-mi-lesz-kicsi-cickanyok-52605.html He added, referring to Jobbik, “Ti meg, Jobbikosok olyan hülyék vagytok, mint a segg”

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  31. cheshire cat :
    @Charlie
    …and we use “szia” as hello as well as see you.

    The most disturbing thing from and English point of view is not so much ‘hello’ being used to say ‘goodbye’, but when it is used to say goodbye to several people – ‘hellosztok’ makes me flinch every time I hear it, even after 11 years!

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  32. I simply refuse to use “szia.” It is a development that has taken place since I left Hungary and to me it sounds very strange. Hungarians claim that it is an abbreviation of “szervusz,” but I very much doubt it because it doesn’t conform to normal linguistic patterns. Hello or hi and see you but szia and szia just won’t do for me.

    I have noticed other developments that is, I guess, the normal development of a language and although they sound strange to me. I accept them because this is the way languages develop. But “szia” somehow sounds to me a stupid imitation of a foreign word that went wrong somewhere along the way.

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  33. @Some1
    ” I hate to say but the people of Fidesz are either stupid, they think others are as stupid as they are, or both.”

    Well said.
    But then we are back to my assumption, aren’t we, that from now on they’re undeniably linked with an open racist, and they declared this fact themselves.
    Next time when he marching in tandem with a newly knighted panhandler, people has to make one more decision prior to joining them: from that minute they supporting the ‘bayerian endlosung’ as well, not only expressing their undying love toward Orban..!

    I wonder, thouh, how the Polish and he other imported loosers will take this experience, once they will be informed.

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  34. Dear Eva,
    re: szia

    in singular:
    servus humillimus> szervusz, szerbusz > szevasz > sziasz > szia

    in plural:
    szervusztok > szevasztok > sziasztok

    It is just an (almost) coincidence with the English see ya

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  35. Re: the use of “szia”

    Funny how language changes… having grown up with “szia”, to me “szervusz” sounds strange and foreign, though I know that “szervusz” was commonly used before “szia” became popular.

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  36. London Calling!

    Yes – ‘Szia’ has been a puzzle to me too!

    When I first heard it I realised it was a Hungarian greeting or valediction – and was most confused as to how like ‘See Ya’ it was – if it wasn’t actually ‘See Ya’.

    With the puzzle of why Hungarians were saying ‘Hello’ when they said ‘goodbye’ – causing great confusion in me – I was almost reduced to a silent – scared-to-say-anything wreck!

    I always say ‘See Ya’ from my London Cockney lexicon for goodbyes to familiar friends – so was quite fearful of what my Hungarian friends thought I might be saying when I uttered it quite automatically and without thinking – and then thinking: Goodness – are they as confused as me?

    Tappanch has cleared that up – so thank you!

    But what a coincidence! – The exact reverse of the usual English meanings of greeting AND valediction through serendipity – and homophony! (Almost!)

    Two Nations definitely separated by two languages!

    Regards

    Charlie

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  37. tappanch :
    Dear Eva,
    re: szia
    in singular:
    servus humillimus> szervusz, szerbusz > szevasz > sziasz > szia
    in plural:
    szervusztok > szevasztok > sziasztok
    It is just an (almost) coincidence with the English see ya

    I agree with Tappanch. I remember, “szia” had been used more than 50 years ago.
    Such accidental coincidences between words in languages are quite frequent.
    Sometimes they serve as the base of “close Hungarian – Sumer relationship”.

    Here is an interesting analysis of the transition of szervusz to szia from Wikipedia.

    A szerbusz népies változata, amely a v hang b-re változásával alakult ki.
    Eredetüket tekintve idetartoznak a főképpen a fiatalok nyelvhasználatában jelentkező szia [1952], sziasz [1964], szió, szióka [1985] tegező köszönések is, melyek játszi szóalkotással keletkeztek. A korábbi generációk vezették be a több személy üdvözlésére szolgáló többes számú köszönésformát: szervusz – szervusztok, ill. szevasz – szevasztok. A kövekező generáció ezt a megkülönböztetést általánossá tette, majd szóhatár-eltolódással: szevasz-tok → szeva-sztok a -sztok lett a többes számú üdvözlési forma: szia-sztok, heló-sztok, cső-sztök stb.

    Alternatively, one has to ask Ádám Nádasdy, professor of linguistics and specialist of continuosly dveloping Hungarian language.

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  38. London Calling!

    Dénes – Thanks for your elucidation – but can you imagine the confusion that Google Translate gets itself into here – let alone the confusion for a non-Hungarian speaker!

    It entirely confuses ‘Hellos’ with ‘Goodbyes’ – I think!

    Good try though!

    Regards

    Charlie

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  39. I was confused myself when I spent a copuple of years in the USA, I tended to think that Hungarian speakers mistakenly copied a fashionable English way of saying good bye.
    Hungarian did not make any difference between hello and good bye at least in colloquial language.
    However, there is a new trend what people use lately for good by: its practically a mirror translation of English have nice day, evening, etc. (További szép napot!)
    I have to apologize to English speakers for not translating Hungarian Wikipedia article (of course, there does not exist an English version) the debate seems to be overwhelmingly academic compared to the original topic, anyway. (Fidesz and Bayer Zsolt).

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  40. MagyarHírlap journalist Zsolt Bayer”…great, include accomplices (Fidesz, VO) please.

    Zsolt Bayer :”Whoever runs over a Gypsy child is acting correctly if he gives no thought to stopping and steps hard on the accelerator.”

    Der Spiegel:

    ‘The Party Speaks with Two Tongues’

    Nevertheless, critics doubt that Fidesz — and Prime Minister Orbán, in particular — will distance themselves from right-wing extremism, anti-Semitism and antiziganism, a term denoting racism toward the Sinti and Roma.

    Kristián Ungváry, a historian who has just published a 700-page book on the interwar years of the right-wing extremist Horthy regime, describes the party’s policies as a “sham.”

    “The party speaks with two tongues,” Ungváry says. “On the one hand, one distances oneself from right-wing extremism in order to maintain a good reputation abroad and because one notes that the political damage would be too severe. On the other hand, Fidesz pays tribute to anti-Semitic writers of the interwar period, such as Albert Wass and József Nyírö, or expresses right-wing extremist positions in regime-friendly newspapers.”

    “that the political damage would be too severe”….which this regime will notice the coming weaks.

    So I am very happy also with the double talk about Minister
    Navracsics condemning Bayer in the English version of the governments
    website and nothing even mentioned in the Hungarian version.

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  41. Eva S. Balogh :

    Lecso :
    Does anyone know if there are any links, connections between a Bayer and Jobbik?

    Well, yes and no. His good friend, András Bencsik, is officially a Fidesz member or supporter but he and his wife were heavily involved with the Hungarian Guard. I think the wife came up with their uniform. Bencsik was also one of the organizers of Peace March. Magyar Hirlap in ideological terms is very close to Jobbik although on paper it is supposedly supporting Fidesz.

    Thank you, I also searched for a bit and found this, Bayer’s letter to Vona.

    http://kecskemetilapok.hu/keszwm/s_!news/i_kommentar_24/i_bayer_zsolt_levele_vona_gabornak_23097/t_Bayer%20Zsolt%20levele%20Vona%20G%C3%A1bornak/

    It gives you an idea of how really deranged this man is, the worst possible kind of Fidesz supporter, like Leto from Pol.hu.

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  42. New antisemitic libel in Magyar Hirlap, where Orban’s friend, Mr Bayer spreads his racist thoughts too. (Thanks to jotunder in vincent).

    In an article,
    http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/a-kifosztas-szinjateka
    they quote a certain Isaac Rothschild.

    As jotunder points out there was no Isaac in the Rothschild family at the end of 19th century, and the cynical quote

    “The few who can understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors, that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of the people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests.”

    comes from a Jehovah’s witness text, and let me add that a Mr Sherman says this sentence there, not Mr Rothschild.

    see
    http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/vindication2/vindication2_6.html
    at p 173.

    Of course, the readers of Magyar Hirlap do not know about this falsification and are convinced that they were given another proof of the evilness of Jews.

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  43. Paul Wal :

    So I am very happy also with the double talk about Minister
    Navracsics condemning Bayer in the English version of the governments
    website and nothing even mentioned in the Hungarian version.

    Incredible but unfortunately true. Hungarian journalists should make something out of this.

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  44. @Lecso:

    Thanks for your valuable insights and (a bit OT):

    When I saw your first comment signed with that name for a moment I thought: O no – leto (aka Orbán’s rabid kutya – that’s how I address this creature) is back …

    He’s my “favourite loonie” on pol.hu – at first he tried to be reasonable but at the first discussion about “fags” he showed his true colours, so I was very glad that you weren’t him!

    Now back to reality:

    The aforementioned “Doublespeak” by Orbán and his minions is really worrying in a way – how do they get away with it ?

    Like trying to like the EU and the IMF and having those adverts in Hungary ” we will not be a colony” ?
    Or dismissing “fags” and welcoming an LGBT congress at the same time (only in English, of course) ?

    And their preoccupation with “Christian family values” ? Which Christians you might also ask – because not all churches are equal in Orbanistan …

    One could probably make a much longer list of that …

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  45. “I am very happy also with the double talk about Minister
    Navracsics condemning Bayer in the English version of the governments
    website and nothing even mentioned in the Hungarian version.”

    That is just so incredible…
    Not the translators getting carried away, I presume.

    Charlie, I’m glad you are calm! :-)

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  46. Well, well…
    As you may have heard, a few hundred people demonstrated yesterday against Bayer and how the ruling party and it’s leadership reactions – or the lack of it, thereof – front of the Fidesz building, where the following banner greeted them:

    http://www.minimumplusz.hu/2013/01/13/lehet-fokozni/

    “Don’t stand by the killers!
    Don’t listen to Ron Werber!”

    (Ne álljatok a gyilkosok pártjára!
    Ne hallgassatok Ron Werberre!)

    The intention of the extremely ‘creative’ message is quite clear: as they happened to have that big piece of empty cloth, just as well send two messages at the same time, against two distinct target group, while implicating their political adversaries as well.
    Great idea, really.

    Not to mention the fact, that by doing it, they managed to explicitly define themselves as racists and anti-Semites at once, loud and clear.

    Thanks for the invaluable information, chaps, got the message!

    As much as I know, the demonstrators expressed that they siding with the Roma population – even by wearing “I am Roma too” signs, – but the Fidesz-banner didn’t called for “don’t stand by the Roma”, no, they said “killers”…!
    So, those, who supporting the Roma, supporting the killers, because – according to the Fidesz – they are the SAME, ergo, every Roma is a killer – I’ve failed to find any other explanation.

    The second line just as explicit: “Don’t listen to Ron Werber!”
    Ron Werber is a well known campaign-strategist, who according to news going to work again with MSZP in the coming campaign. (http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20121216-az-mszp-gyozelmet-igeri-ron-werber.html
    More about him:
    http://werber-pa.com/ron_werber)

    So, its clear, that since Mr.Werber is from Israel, only he was able to persuade the demonstrators to express their support for the Roma, isn’t he, so they shouldn’t listen to him, it isn’t something, what a real Hungarian supposed to do.. No!

    What a pity, though, that Mr.Werber working with MSZP, and the demonstration was – as it has been published too – organized and held by DK, oh, well. I am splitting hairs here, am I not..?

    Or it just doesn’t matter, as long as there is a chance that there will be some ‘pure blooded Aryan brother’ who’s got the message too, and decide, that voting to the Fidesz just as (far)’right’ thing to do as it was with Jobbik..?

    – But there is nothing, what would be against the law in this either, as we know, thanks God…

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