The Hungarian election: A day after

I’m in the middle of reading a slim volume by György Bolgár, the “Dear Mr. Bolgár” of the call-in program “Let’s Talk It Over” on Klubrádió. His latest book is Poligráf, a word that needs no translation. In every short chapter he refutes another lie of Viktor Orbán.

If Bolgár had waited a month or so he could have added another chapter to the book: Viktor Orbán’s claim of “national unity.” In his acceptance speech Orbán said that what his party achieved is “a European record. This is a fact that gives us the right to say, and not just to say but also to be proud of the fact that Hungary is the most unified country in Europe.”  First of all, that “record” is nothing to be terribly proud of. In fact, in comparison to Fidesz’s most successful showing in 2010, the party lost over twenty percent of its voters. As 444‘s reporter pointed out, in 2002 and again in 2006 Fidesz lost the election with more votes than it got this time around. Others remarked that the last time Fidesz did so badly was in 1998.

As for “national unity” here are some figures. Fidesz won 44.36%, Unity Alliance 25.89%, Jobbik 20.46%, and LMP 5.24% of the votes. Do these figures suggest that Hungary is “the most unified country in Europe”? Surely not. The super majority that Fidesz may (probably will) achieve is the result of a cleverly devised electoral law, not the popular will. Unity? No, electoral manipulation. That’s the reality behind this fantastic European record.

Source: Index

Source: Index

A Fidesz super majority naturally means a system that discriminates against other parties. Both the Unity Alliance and Jobbik ended up with much smaller parliamentary representations than their actual performance would have warranted. In part that was achieved by the split between seats won outright and seats allocated on the basis of party lists. In any event, a totally unrepresentative parliament will convene after the formation of the third Orbán government.

It is now time to talk about Jobbik, the neo-Nazi party. Yes, it gained about 130,000 new voters. At the moment there are close to a million Jobbik voters in Hungary. Most of these voters came from Fidesz, which lost all told about 700,000 voters. Many people are very concerned about the growth of Jobbik. Some foresee a Hungary which will soon be run by neo-Nazis. The people who seem most concerned about Jobbik are also certain that the Hungarian Left’s poor showing will result in their total disappearance from the political scene. They envisage a second Poland where the Left was pretty well left for dead.

I’m a great deal less gloomy on the subject. First of all, in the twentieth century Hungarian extremist parties didn’t have long life expectancies. One year the Arrow Cross party had at least a million voters but a year later they lost most of their support. Moreover, these extremist parties have a tendency to splinter. A number of Jobbik members of parliament have already left the party for ideological reasons. In my opinion, Jobbik’s recent rise in the polls has two main causes. One is that the party leadership toned down their racist propaganda. And second, Fidesz made no attempt to curb their activities. Fidesz’s propaganda was directed against the Unity Alliance and specifically against Ferenc Gyurcsány; Jobbik remained untouched by the Fidesz propaganda machine. Although Jobbik did well at the polls, its leadership is still dissatisfied. Party chief Gábor Vona himself lost to a Fidesz candidate in one of the strongest Jobbik strongholds in northeastern Hungary. Moreover, his unreasonably high expectations for Jobbik’s performance might prompt a serious debate within the party about the efficacy of the new ideological line which didn’t bring about the desired results. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some serious disagreements about the future course of the party.

Finally, let’s talk about those who are ready to condemn the whole nation for voting for autocracy, semi-dictatorship, and servitude. Again, let’s see the figures. Out of the whole electorate only 27.30% voted for Fidesz, 17.87% for Unity Alliance, 12.31% for Jobbik, 3.23% for LMP, and 2.61% for other smaller parties. And yes, 38.81% didn’t bother to vote at all. It is true that almost two-thirds of those who did vote cast their votes for the Right–that is, for either Fidesz or Jobbik. But that is still not the whole country. And at least a vote for Jobbik was not a vote for autocracy.

One problem is that Hungarians’ attitude toward democracy is ambivalent, due mainly to ignorance and undereducation. Instilling an understanding of the importance of democracy should be the first task the democratic parties to tackle. Without a democratically-minded population one cannot build a democratic society.

Finally, let’s see what the International Election Observation Mission of OSCE had to say about the election:

The 6 April parliamentary elections were efficiently administered and offered voters a diverse choice following an inclusive candidate registration process. The legal framework for these elections was amended substantially in recent years. While some changes were positive, a number of amendments negatively affected the election process, including important checks and balances. The main governing party enjoyed an undue advantage because of restrictive campaign regulations, biased media coverage and campaign activities that blurred the separation between political party and the State.

The Fundamental Law (the constitution) and a large number of cardinal laws, including electoral legislation, were passed using procedures that circumvented the requirement for public consultation and debate. This undermined support and confidence in the reform process. A number of aspects of this legal overhaul undermined checks and balances, such as a reduction of the oversight powers of the Constitutional Court.

In a widely welcomed change, legal amendments reduced the number of parliamentary seats from 386 to 199, necessitating alteration in constituency delimitation. The legal requirement to have constituencies of a more equal size is positive. However, the need for a two-thirds majority for redrawing of constituency boundaries may make it difficult to change the boundaries in the future. The delimitation process was criticized by several OSCE/ODIHR LEOM interlocutors for lacking transparency and inclusiveness. There were allegations of gerrymandering; it remains to be seen how this translates into results.

Well, by now we know how all this translated into results. Meanwhile, the Hungarian Embassy in Washington wrote to “Friends of Hungary” that “during the course of the election, monitors from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation (OSCE) said they were satisfied with the voting process.” Surely, if we think of process as “a series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result,” then the Hungarian government isn’t telling the whole truth. The Election Observation Mission’s report didn’t express complete satisfaction with the process and the final word will be coming only when the results are final. I assume that, after analyzing the votes and how they got translated into seats, the final report will contain serious reservations about the “process” carefully devised by Fidesz to retain a super majority far into the future.

107 comments

  1. One has to marvel at the Felcsutian.
    He so obviously relishes the bald-faced lies he dishes out to the West; which is swallowed whole and digested with nary a comment by the sycophantic, ass-kissing, Hungarian media.

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  2. I had forgotten to input the quote for the above. Here it is:

    “In his acceptance speech Orbán said that what his party achieved is “a European record. This is a fact that gives us the right to say, and not just to say but also to be proud of the fact that Hungary is the most unified country in Europe.”

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  3. vDear Éva,

    Like most except the trolls I am reluctant to criticise your analysis. But let me contribute an alternative analysis.

    The statistical results of this election demonstrated the importance of the first-passed-the-post system in Hungary.

    In such a system it is vital that the opposition vote is consolidated. If not the largest minority shares of the popular vote will trounce the opposition. Every time. Independent of the level of education (etc) in the country.

    The lack of natural trust between people here inevitably make for a divided opposition. As demonstrated by some of the Unity’s post-election comments.

    So we have a situation in which the system not only favours the incumbent but also favours the party which is most able to get its supporters to vote.

    In short, Mr Orbán has not only pulled off a short-term victory, he has proved that his changes to the electoral system will favour his party in the long term too.

    One can only hope that now he has that evidence, he will concentrate on making genuinely good economic and other policy (such as encouraging investment), rather than on populistic and other short-term measures.

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  4. More than half of those who voted voted against Fidesz, the ‘unifying’ party.

    And, despite every trick that Orbán pulled, despite a massively pro-Fidesz media, despite an atmosphere of fear and intimidation, over 30% of those who voted voted left/liberal/green.

    If Orbán thinks that is a success after 4 years in total control, God alone knows what he would consider a failure.

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  5. I think it is not wise to try and down play the Jobbik vote, 20.4% of the vote is very significant. In 2012 the Golden Dawn in Greece received 7% of the popular vote, enough for the party to enter the Hellenic Parliament which shocked many people. The French National Front in the 2012 presidential election won 17.9% of the vote. In the municipal elections held in 2014, lists officially supported by National Front won Mayors in 12 cities: Beaucaire, Cogolin, Fréjus, Hayange, Henin-Beaumont, Le Luc, Le Pontet, Mantes-la-Ville, Marseille 7th sector, Villers-Cotterets, Beziers and Camaret-sur-Aigues. Following the municipal elections, the National Front has, in cities of over 1000 inhabitants, has 1546 and 459 councillors at two different levels of local government.

    Poland’s RN, plans on making a run in the 2014 European Parliament elections. On the other hand the Slovak National Party (Slovenská národná strana, SNS) faded in the Slovak parliamentary election, 2012, SNS failed to meet the 5% electoral threshold.

    So the reality is sometimes the far right makes electoral gains and those fade and no momentum develops. But unfortunately sometimes, as in the case of the NSDAP, Nazi Party in Germany that momentum becomes huge with all democracy ending. At the September 1930 Reichstag elections the Nazis won 18.3% of the vote, and became the second-largest party in the Reichstag after the SPD. In March 1932 Hitler ran for President against the incumbent President Paul von Hindenburg, polling 30.1% in the first round and 36.8% in the second against Hindenburg’s 49 and 53%. In the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin. By March 1933 the NSDAP captured 43.9% of the vote for the Reichstag and the rest is history.

    Given the issues of corruption with Orban, the Jobbik could become the only legitimate opposition if the conservative masses of Hungary turn against Orban/Fidesz. Ferenc Kumin in his blog post today also tried to downplay the Jobbik vote. That indicates to me that there is actually a great deal to worry about in the Jobbik vote as there is in the rise of the right in some other European nations.

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  6. Csoda.peter: “One can only hope that now he has that evidence, he will concentrate on making genuinely good economic and other policy (such as encouraging investment), rather than on populistic and other short-term measures.”

    Would be quite a second Orban revolution. On the other hand, you may be even right, probably he will encourage investment, more specifically: investments of his family and friends into farms, strategic firms and buildings including football stadiums, and he will probably also stop the populist short-term measures, as these are quite costly and hinder the above mentioned “investments”.

    But in one thing we agree, the voting system as such would not have prevented the opposition from winning, it is the whole set of additional complications e.g. in campaigning. So hopefully the opposition will learn from these elections also.

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  7. tappanch :

    Vera Molnar :
    When the head of the OSCE delegation, Adao Silva was asked about the elections on Sunday, he did in fact say that they were satisfied with what they saw so far. See:
    http://hvg.hu/itthon/20140406_Az_EBESZmegfigyelok_eddig_elegedettek

    Go to the source…
    They are not satisfied too much:

    “Although …, ruling party enjoyed undue advantage”

    http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/117200

    tappanch :

    Vera Molnar :
    When the head of the OSCE delegation, Adao Silva was asked about the elections on Sunday, he did in fact say that they were satisfied with what they saw so far. See:
    http://hvg.hu/itthon/20140406_Az_EBESZmegfigyelok_eddig_elegedettek

    Go to the source…
    They are not satisfied too much:

    “Although …, ruling party enjoyed undue advantage”

    http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/117200

    I quoted at length from the original document. They are not fully satisfied. The Hungarian government doesn’t tell the truth.

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  8. csoda.peter :

    vDear Éva,

    Like most except the trolls I am reluctant to criticise your analysis. But let me contribute an alternative analysis.

    The statistical results of this election demonstrated the importance of the first-passed-the-post system in Hungary.

    In such a system it is vital that the opposition vote is consolidated. If not the largest minority shares of the popular vote will trounce the opposition. Every time. Independent of the level of education (etc) in the country.

    The lack of natural trust between people here inevitably make for a divided opposition. As demonstrated by some of the Unity’s post-election comments.

    So we have a situation in which the system not only favours the incumbent but also favours the party which is most able to get its supporters to vote.

    In short, Mr Orbán has not only pulled off a short-term victory, he has proved that his changes to the electoral system will favour his party in the long term too.

    One can only hope that now he has that evidence, he will concentrate on making genuinely good economic and other policy (such as encouraging investment), rather than on populistic and other short-term measures.

    I don’t believe in miracles, Csoda Péter.

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  9. @HiBom & @Some1

    You all operate on the premise that the US is a Jeffersonian democracy as attested by Tocqueville. A patent untruth. Now compared to this ideal, Hungary is corrupt, “autocracy, semi-dictatorship, servitude”. The US has probably the most corrupt political system in the Western
    world. .

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  10. “The super majority that Fidesz may (probably will) achieve is the result of a cleverly devised electoral law, not the popular will. Unity? No, electoral manipulation. That’s the reality behind this fantastic European record.

    A Fidesz super majority naturally means a system that discriminates against other parties. Both the Unity Alliance and Jobbik ended up with much smaller parliamentary representations than their actual performance would have warranted. In part that was achieved by the split between seats won outright and seats allocated on the basis of party lists. In any event, a totally unrepresentative parliament will convene after the formation of the third Orbán government.”

    The above sentences show a clear lack of understanding of election law. A 45% vs 25% result with the winner leading twenty percentage points and having almost double to votes of the loser would have led to an even bigger victory in the UK or the US. In fact the victory would have translated into well over 90% of seats taken for the victor. This is not “electoral manipulation” it is a basic feature of election law that the seats do not follow the percentage of votes that is especially intense in the UK or the US. It is the failing to capture enough votes to be competitive that is the cause of this, which does not permit winning under any system.

    There is not an electoral system in the world where the winner is the party with 25% against the party with 45%, such a system simply does not exist.

    ” In my opinion, Jobbik’s recent rise in the polls has two main causes. One is that the party leadership toned down their racist propaganda.”

    And the other is that the Left wing propaganda and electioneering efforts were directed 100% against Fidesz and only Fidesz. Left wing press activists foreign observers, influential opinion formers like Eva Balogh, Kim Scheppele and many others never lifted a finger to combat the rise of Jobbik, they were too busy trying to tear Fidesz down. And tearing Fidesz down did work by the way as the party lost a huge amount of votes. But meanwhile Jobbik, which was never attacked in these circles and especially not during the campaign was allowed to grow. If we are being honest here we have to deal with our own responsibility as well. In fact Mesterhazy pointed to the treatment of Jobbik as one of the biggest mistakes in his post-election interview with Olga Kalman on ATV.

    And if we are on the topic of personal responsibility, sentences such as:

    “And at least a vote for Jobbik was not a vote for autocracy.”

    Can be very easily interpreted as somewhat positive towards Jobbik. This is only part of the bigger pattern of how Jobbik voters might have understood the election. “Jobbik might be bad but at least not as bad as Fidesz so I will vote for them.” I don’t mention MSZP because outside of Budapest election data shows that the race was essentially only between Jobbik and Fidesz.

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  11. I suspect that many commentators on here don’t understand the full lunacy of the UK domestic system. There is no proportional element at all, no lists, no second rounds, no electoral colleges, it’s straight FPTP. Under the UK system, MSzP would have just the few seats they won, Jobbik and LMP would have NONE.

    Rather unbelievably, the Greens, who have a similar level of support to LMP, managed to win one constituency (Brighton) in the last election, but they did this, not by increasing their overall vote, but by concentrating all their efforts on the one town where they had really strong support.

    I have campaigned all my adult life against this undemocratic system, but it does have some merit. For a start, all MPs belong to a constituency and are responsible for the well being and support of ALL their constituents, regardless of politics (and this really does work), and secondly, to win an election, no government can afford to take voters for granted, they must work very hard in (at least) the marginal constituencies to ensure victory.

    That said, I would still abolish the system overnight, if I could, and I regard Orbán’s new electoral system’s bias towards FPTP as a major step backwards in Hungarian democracy. But equally I would never support a ‘pure’ proportional system, as, in the UK at least, the contact between the voters of a specific area and their MP is really what makes the system work.

    Rather ironically, one of the things I admired about Hungary on first coming here 12 years ago was the very fair election system – which provided both constituency based MPs AND a parliament based closely on the proportion of the vote.

    It’s a pity it wasn’t quite as perfect as it seemed, otherwise we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now.

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  12. Joe Simon :
    @HiBom & @Some1
    You all operate on the premise that the US is a Jeffersonian democracy as attested by Tocqueville. A patent untruth. Now compared to this ideal, Hungary is corrupt, “autocracy, semi-dictatorship, servitude”. The US has probably the most corrupt political system in the Western
    world. .

    I ma sorry, I thought we are talking about Hungary. Do you want to compare? That is what makes Hungary better, that you compare it?
    OK Hungary compared to North Korea is a full democracy, Hungary compared what happened to Rwanda is united, Hungary compared to Russia has no problems with corruption, Hungary compared to China is all for its workers, and last but not least Hungary compared to Syria provides enormous equality based on religion, sexual orientation or race! You won Joe Simon!

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  13. I don’t think the analysis is sound enough. People are uneducated and only if they were educated they would embrace democracy and vote for (one assumes some democratic party)? I think this is the kind of simplistic argument that leads nowhere. It means that overall nobody made any huge mistakes on the democratic side, there are no fundamental ideological issues, only with a better campaign, media and a fairer election system, results would have been better.

    Sure, the results would have been better, a Fidesz did not have the 2/3s alone, only with Jobbik. That’s all. But all hard-core Fideszniks for some reason love the MSZP/Gyurcsány/Bajnai block as their enemy. We always knew that, as it was written about, but a nice reference from nol.hu titled, Dirty, Communist City (ie. Budapest).

    “Az érzelmekből látszott, hogy a közönség még mindig a szocialistákat tartja igazi ellenfélnek, nem a Jobbikot. Az ember nem kívánhat jobb ellenfelet magának – mondta mellettem valaki vidáman.”

    Jobbik is not an adversary of Fidesz, it is a brotherly organization with which they can and do work together in municipalities, even help each other as brothers in arms against the common enemy: the “Liberal Communists”. So if Jobbik supplies those mandates/votes in the Parliament, those are good as any in the Fidesz caucus.

    We are losing sight of a huge issue that is that people do not listen to and care about the leftist brand and ideology. Why is that? If one wants the left/liberal side ever to prevail then this question must be asked day after day.

    Why is it that in Bavaria the CSU has prevailed for half a century or more? That in Italy, south of Rome no leftist party could ever really win? The the Left is dead in a country like Poland?

    These have different answers, but my point is that the reasons of the left’s resounding defeat after these absolutely abysmal four years of Fidesz government are much more deeper than bad campaign and uneducated masses — especially as people will not get educated overnight and in very educated areas like districts 2 and 12 Fidesz is especially strong.

    I don’t think that the left/liberal side is anywhere near ready to do any serious soul-searching and thus it is doomed to fail.

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  14. Jobbik’s organic strength should not be underestimated. And such organic strength is the basis of a success in this current election.

    Jobbik has a deep and disciplined national network, with supporters, activists in small villages too. The United Opposition has nothing in villages and is very much challenged organizationally even in the biggest towns outside Budapest. MSZP has challenges to come up with names of candidates even for a municipality election, their weakness should not be underestimated either. Who would want to come out as leftist in a small town and get bullied by the Fidesz-Jobbik caucus?

    The Roma issue is a huge, almost existential issue for rural people, especially in the Eastern part of Hungary. This is an absolute taboo subject for the left, while Fidesz is more politically correct and could gain with the public works programme, but otherwise the issue is not addressed except for Jobbik.

    Until the left can get tough on this issue, rural villagers will not deal with the left. People hate the entitlement culture, that romas have only rights, but they cannot be forced to act “normally”.

    By the way, did you notice how Russia Today (the global news TV channel of Putin) was supporting Jobbik in the last couple of days? The Russians are pushing for and betting on Jobbik pretty overtly.

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  15. @Der Alte: “Who would want to come out as leftist in a small town and get bullied by the Fidesz-Jobbik caucus?”

    So the bullies win… because what Fidesz and Jobbik is doing to the left is way past fierce competition; it’s bullying. One also has to bear that in mind when evaluating the disappointing performance of the united opposition in the elections.

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  16. Once the Jobbik party has little or no fear of a resurgence of the left/liberals it will politically distance itself from Fidesz on some critical issues in order to create political space. Basically, right now the Jobbik needs to have little fear of the left. If the global economy goes into another downturn the Jobbik are perfectly situated to blame Orban for the ills of the economy and the left is too tied to the EU to profit from such a situation. I think Orban is not stupid and he will watch the Jobbik carefully and maybe even block with what is left of the opposition on a few small things to throw the Jobbik off of balance.

    Orban seems to lack a consistent ideology and what is nationalized today could be privatized again tomorrow if it is to his political advantage. The Jobbik lack this opportunism because of ideology, but that may unfortunately pay off for them and lead to an authoritarian state in the years to come the likes of which Hungary hasn’t seen since before Kadar. I hope I am wrong about this.

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  17. Charles Gati writes that “Jobbik also advocates… the expulsion to Israel of Hungary’s relatively large Jewish population.”

    Can somebody provide quotes for such advocating?

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  18. The results clearly show a conservative bias of the public, and it is observed in other European countries as well. The people have simply tired of super-liberalism and its indifference to traditional moral and family values. One of the important reasons of Hitler’s rise to power was Stalin’s ban on cooperation of German communists with social-Democrats. If now the Hungarian left makes a similar mistake of being too harsh against a center-conservative Orban’s government, it may help Jobbik in the elections to come.

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  19. What is the left program for the Roma? How the Roma problem is resolved in the Western countries like Spain – they have a lot of them?

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  20. “Charles Gati writes that “Jobbik also advocates… the expulsion to Israel of Hungary’s relatively large Jewish population.”

    Can somebody provide quotes for such advocating?”

    Cmon Eliezer, are you really that naive? Gati simply lied, and I don’t blame him. What will happen to him as a result? Will he be jailed? No. Will he have to answer tough questions? No. Will his reputation suffer? NO. Why would it. The question whether he told the truth about it only interests a few commenters and nobody else.

    If you were really someone powerful and you could pressure Gati into giving an answer even then he could simply say he “misremembered” or that a janitor and a taxi driver told him this who were both jobbik voters therefore it is the position of Jobbik to advocate this.

    Such naivite to think something is true simply because it was written down…

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  21. According to Mr Gati: “They paid little or no attention to the fact that about one-third of the population lives in poverty; that some 30 percent of children go to bed hungry at night; and that 500,000 Hungarians have left the country for temporary or permanent jobs abroad.”

    How about that? Orban is being blamed for the unfortunate affects of Globalization on a small, (9 million population) ex-communist country, like Hungary. He has a great task ahead of him to save this little country! Live and let live, please, let him govern. (I’m not surprised at all that he turned to religion.)

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  22. latefor :
    According to Mr Gati: “They paid little or no attention to the fact that about one-third of the population lives in poverty; that some 30 percent of children go to bed hungry at night; and that 500,000 Hungarians have left the country for temporary or permanent jobs abroad.”
    How about that? Orban is being blamed for the unfortunate affects of Globalization on a small, (9 million population) ex-communist country, like Hungary. He has a great task ahead of him to save this little country! Live and let live, please, let him govern. (I’m not surprised at all that he turned to religion.)

    Orban has licked his lips during his victory speech some 48 times. The guy is visibly sick.

    But let him govern. I love him. I love our Viktor. No, I can’t bear this, I love him so much. I love him so much. Orban Viktor, my god, oh, I love him so much. Please, please, let him govern.

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  23. latefor :
    According to Mr Gati: “They paid little or no attention to the fact that about one-third of the population lives in poverty; that some 30 percent of children go to bed hungry at night; and that 500,000 Hungarians have left the country for temporary or permanent jobs abroad.”
    How about that? Orban is being blamed for the unfortunate affects of Globalization on a small, (9 million population) ex-communist country, like Hungary. He has a great task ahead of him to save this little country! Live and let live, please, let him govern. (I’m not surprised at all that he turned to religion.)

    Read more closely. Orban is not being blamed for causing the problems but for “paying little or no attention to” them. And then he claims that he has solved or started to solve them, which is, shall we say, somewhat inaccurate.
    Yes, those problems he inherited, as did the previous governments, and in some sense Orban can do little about them. He will enjoy a general uplift in the world economy (if he is lucky, irregardless of his religion), or he’ll blame others (communists–which he once was, the EU, multinationals, anybody) if things get even worse. But he has not made anything better except the bottom line for himself and his friends. That and securing power is all he apparently has even tried to do.

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  24. Paul :
    I suspect that many commentators on here don’t understand the full lunacy of the UK domestic system. There is no proportional element at all, no lists, no second rounds, no electoral colleges, it’s straight FPTP. Under the UK system, MSzP would have just the few seats they won, Jobbik and LMP would have NONE.

    Also, let’s not mention the French system, under which Hungary would probably have a 99% Fidesz-KDNP parliament (a couple of Unity MPs being elected with Jobbik voters support). :)

    While the critics of the present electoral system remain entirely valid, the main opposition parties have accepted to contest under these rules. Assuming they will still be in force four years from now (a risky assumption, as I bet that OV’s next move will be towards a presidential system), what’s next for the opposition?

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  25. @Jitka – Let him “lick his lips” – may be he actually tasted victory, who knows?

    @ Curly – Let him govern, let the world see what he can do. I wish him all the very best with his “un-orthodox method” of governing in a hope that he will succeed, whilst he’s looking at the best interest of the Hungarian people. Also, I hope that he will continue with his work in preserving the unique Hungarian culture. One can only hope (within reason) and pray.

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  26. latefor :
    @Jitka – Let him “lick his lips” – may be he actually tasted [palinka], who knows?
    @ Curly – Let him [rule], let the world [come for long drunken weekends] [and be oblivious] to [the worst] that he can do. I wish him all the very best with his “un-orthodox method” of [extracting money] in a hope that he will [become as rich as possible], whilst he’s looking at the best [financial] interest of [his] Hungarian people. Also, I hope that he will continue with his work in preserving [an ossified version of] Hungarian culture. One can only hope (within reason) and [duck and cover].

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  27. Halmos, valid points that you mention. In the specific case of Hungary, this point of “people would never vote for Communists” has appeared rather lately, as far as I remember only after 2006. It was less often said during the 1990s (although it was perhaps sometimes suggested that one need not try to debate with someone from the “other side of the political spectrum”). That makes a comparison with Bavaria at least complicated (and there are “pockets of resistance” too, such as their capital with a CSU mayor only during a few years in the 1980s).

    The problem is that in Hungary, politics appears to be seen as a life and death question. Compromise and (basic) respect for the adversary in political issues appears to be unknown to many politicians, but also to many voters. In such a case, the stated programme if it exists is just the addition to the underlying programme of “we or you”. The origin of that has for me still been difficult to identify, but people here on the blog have already suggested a number of nearly necessary (=programmatic) divisions of the Hungarian society through religion (Christian, which Christian, Jewish, none), social position (nobility, not), urbanised – not. With “political education” (not education as such), people should learn to think about how a larger group of diverse people, the society, can be ruled so that most people can for the most time feel secure, can speak their minds (even if other people do not like it), and can arrive at solutions that more or less are acceptable to all. (That is the basis; questions of how people who just hate each other can still form a democracy are a bit advanced, but equally relevant for Hungary. The answer is: impossible, so if you prefer to hate each other, then authoritarian solutions are the most likely outcome.) That is why “education” matters, but in a different sense than perhaps often used.

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  28. Eliezer Rabinovich :
    Charles Gati writes that “Jobbik also advocates… the expulsion to Israel of Hungary’s relatively large Jewish population.”
    Can somebody provide quotes for such advocating?

    2012:
    Mr Gyongyosi said: “Jews are looking to build outside of Israel. There is a kind of expansionism in their behaviour. If Peres is supporting colonisation, it is a natural reaction for people to feel that Jews are not welcome here.”

    http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/62968/hungarys-far-right-jews-not-welcome-here

    View Comment
  29. Orban about Jobbik on May 18, 2003:

    “I am watching them with encouraging love” (bátorító szeretettel)


    – Alakult egy új párt, a Jobbik átalakult, pontosabban párttá. Fölveszik-e velük, vagy fölvették-e velük a kapcsolatot?

    O:
    – Én ismerem a szervezők jó néhány erőteljes figuráját. Nagyon nehéz helyzetben vagyok, amikor azt kérdezik, mert furcsa dolog egy negyvenedik életévében járó embertől talán, de ilyen bátorító szeretettel vagy nem is tudom, hogyan nézem azt, amit ők csinálnak.

    – Nem akarta azt mondani, hogy atyai.

    O:
    – Hát igen, szóval az bántó lett volna. Hát nézze, nagyon sok mindenben nem értünk egyet. Tehát beszélgettünk velük például a Szövetség a Nemzetért Polgári Körnek az ülésén, hiszen ott is néha fel szoktak bukkanni, sőt képviseltetik ott magukat tagi minőségben is. De látom, érzem a bőrömön keresztül mindazt, amit velünk kapcsolatban érezhettek Antall Józsefék tizenegynéhány évvel ezelőtt. Tehát nagyon nehéz elfogulatlan véleményt mondani. Szerintem amit én látok, becsületes, rendes, nemzeti érdekek iránt elkötelezett, az élet mélyebb értelmét kereső fiatalokról van szó. Én nagyon kívánom nekik, hogy legyenek sikeresek az életben, és itt a közéleti próbálkozásaikat is siker koronázza. Hogy éppen pártot kellett-e nekik alapítaniuk? Hát nekem más tanácsom lett volna. De én sem hallgattam akkortájt más tanácsára, tehát az idő lehet, hogy őket fogja igazolni.”

    View Comment
  30. An :

    @Der Alte: “The Russians are pushing for and betting on Jobbik pretty overtly.”

    There could be more than just moral support.

    Most likely it is. Jobbik seemed to have plenty of money for the campaign.

    View Comment
  31. Guys, let me be clear: Jobbik is as hardcore antisemite and anti-gipsy as ever.

    Jobbikniks only toned that image down for the campaign.

    But the ideals, goals, methods remain the same. Make no mistake.

    (But also do not forget Der Alte’s commments, on the complete lack of ideas about the Roma on the left side, which is one of the paramount issues for rural white people, and this is not an exaggeration).

    View Comment
  32. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    While the critics of the present electoral system remain entirely valid, the main opposition parties have accepted to contest under these rules. Assuming they will still be in force four years from now (a risky assumption, as I bet that OV’s next move will be towards a presidential system), what’s next for the opposition?

    Do you recall that polls shows that a slight majority actually wanted to see a change of government. Yet, today we have a 2/3 majority. Were the polls wrong? No, they were not About 300,000 more people voted for the opposition parties than for Fidesz.

    View Comment
  33. Pace of processing of mailed-in and dropped-off “Transylvanian” votes

    March 31: 11,202 – accepted as valid: 75.54%
    April 01: 0
    April 02: 17,852 – accepted as valid: 81.03%
    April 03: 21,601 – accepted as valid: 80.39%
    April 04: 22,797 – accepted as valid: 80.73%
    April 05: 21,849 – accepted as valid: 81.63%
    April 05: 14,504 – accepted as valid: 78.89%
    April 08: 8,100 – accepted as valid: 83.21%

    View Comment
  34. Eva S. Balogh :

    Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    While the critics of the present electoral system remain entirely valid, the main opposition parties have accepted to contest under these rules. Assuming they will still be in force four years from now (a risky assumption, as I bet that OV’s next move will be towards a presidential system), what’s next for the opposition?

    Do you recall that polls shows that a slight majority actually wanted to see a change of government. Yet, today we have a 2/3 majority. Were the polls wrong? No, they were not About 300,000 more people voted for the opposition parties than for Fidesz.

    Adding Jobbik, Unity and LMP sounds like bad electoral math to me. Even adding only LMP & Unity is wrong (though that could have meant at least a dozen constituency seats less for Fidesz). Jobbik scored 2nd in 41/106 constituencies, Unity in 55: I can’t think of any electoral system that would have resulted in a defeat for Fidesz-KDNP.

    Surely, the current majority does not deserve a 2/3rds win in seats. Also surely, there was some disappointment among voters – but 1) not enough, and 2) Jobbik profited from it as much as Unity. So I’ll ask again: what’s next for the left-liberal opposition?

    PS: To be thorough, we’ve seen in the region some odd alliances between socialists and the far-right (SK 2010, BG 2013), but these were short-lived, post-vote coalitions with the far-right as a very weak partner… Jobbik is just too strong for that, and the Hungarian left not nationalistic enough anyway.

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  35. Manchurian candidate, Transylvanian ballot…

    Accepted ballots, through 1 PM today by their notification address:

    Romania: 48.70%
    e-Landia: 34.64%
    Serbia: 10.85%
    All other countries: 5.81%

    Let me remind you, how easy and anonymous it was to obtain “Transylvanian” ballots, especially to e-Landia.

    You could fill out a form online or offline to register
    your name, date of birth, mother’s name, and
    your naturalization number or new passport number.

    (lots of Fidesz officials could obtain the naturalization numbers of the new citizens)

    You could give an e-mail address as your notification address
    (this is what places you in e-Landia, using my term) [option A]

    You could also name the “settlement” (település) inside Hungary (town hall or election office?), or the consulate where you wanted to pick up your ballot. [option C]

    View Comment
  36. I dare to call the “Transylvanian” ballots fraudulent as a whole, which questions the election results

    1.
    Fidesz [EMNT] offices abroad could obtain ballots by the 10,000’s using naturalization numbers.
    2.
    THey could pick them up at the consulates, fill them out, drop them off at the consulates.
    3.
    The election officials in Hungary throw away 20% of the incoming ballots.
    Perhaps they can see some marking on or inside the outer envelops whether they came from the Fidesz offices or not.
    4.
    No wonder that 95% of the accepted ballots went for Fidesz so far.

    View Comment
  37. tappanch :
    Manchurian candidate, Transylvanian ballot…
    Accepted ballots, through 1 PM today by their notification address:
    Romania: 48.70%
    e-Landia: 34.64%
    Serbia: 10.85%
    All other countries: 5.81%
    Let me remind you, how easy and anonymous it was to obtain “Transylvanian” ballots, especially to e-Landia.
    You could fill out a form online or offline to register
    your name, date of birth, mother’s name, and
    your naturalization number or new passport number.
    (lots of Fidesz officials could obtain the naturalization numbers of the new citizens)
    You could give an e-mail address as your notification address
    (this is what places you in e-Landia, using my term) [option A]
    You could also name the “settlement” (település) inside Hungary (town hall or election office?), or the consulate where you wanted to pick up your ballot. [option C]

    In theory, could the address of the voters registered obtained by “anyone” (I mean some official from the National Election Office) at the request of a political party if they suspect that voting irregularities occurred?
    Would it be possible from the list of voters to generate the addresses where more then ten people are registered? I would find that already highly suspicious at any case, so maybe a visit is dues.
    Also, if they could visit 100 random addresses inside Hungary to ask the neighbours, the postman, the school, or the local nurse about how many people uses the said residency and if they ever obtained services.
    I do understand that this would not change the outcome of the election, but it would certainly show that the current Election Law is very flawed.
    An other question, did any organization filed a complaint with the EU about the inequalities of voting procedures based on various addresses or on how one obtained citizenship?

    View Comment
  38. Finally Hungary is loved by Russia! Orban, and the Fidesz voters big dream came through as Hungary’s Dear Leader is fully approved by PRAVDA . Not Rakosi and neither Kadar was able to be loved by KGB Putin so much that they would get such high approval. They always wanted more form our ex-leaders, but Orban made the cut.
    Orban’s dream came through. When he said “Brussels is not Moscow”, he was totally misunderstood. What he meant that he takes orders from Moscow not from Brussels. I think this calls for a Peace March by all the ex-crossborder colleagues of good old communist Putin. I think at this time Kover and Orban should be there, as they were staunch supporters of the system Putting fought for.
    http://www.pravda.ru/world/europe/european/08-04-2014/1203716-vengria-0/

    They praise Orban for his anti-EU stance, and how he tackles corruption. LOL

    View Comment
  39. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    Adding Jobbik, Unity and LMP sounds like bad electoral math to me. Even adding only LMP & Unity is wrong (though that could have meant at least a dozen constituency seats less for Fidesz). Jobbik scored 2nd in 41/106 constituencies, Unity in 55: I can’t think of any electoral system that would have resulted in a defeat for Fidesz-KDNP.

    Surely, the current majority does not deserve a 2/3rds win in seats

    Those who voted for Jobbik voted against Fidesz. In this sense, I think it is perfectly acceptable to put all non-Fidesz voted into one pile.

    View Comment
  40. tappanch :
    The admitted Fidesz aim is to double or triple the “Transylvanian” votes at the next election.

    You are right. At the next election there will be at least 300,000 Fidesz votes from Transylvania.

    Fidesz does not stop organizing for a second. And has not stopped since 2002.

    Smart people learn from the pros, though. The Left, however, is unable to learn and most importantly cannot implement.

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  41. Joe Simon, “servitude” is absolutely the correct word. When you are a small farmer in the countryside whose great grandparents were landless peasants working on the land of absentee aristocratic land owners, whose grandparents saw that land collectivized under the communists, whose parents finally got a fragile stake of their own in the land at the change of systems, but now see that same land transferred for generation-long leases to absentee holders, entirely on the basis of their Fedesz party books, and are now forced to work that land at sharecropping conditions or worse, the cycle has come all the way round back to indentured servitude.of three generations past, struggling each month to meet their production quotas and thus constantly in debt to their new masters, who enjoy their EU subsidies even when the land is left fallow, “servitude” is a polite work for your status. This is the real downside of the Fidesz state’s creation of a new propertied class. Do you really hate the Hungarian people so much that you would condone this through your support of Fidesz?

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  42. art

    Eva S. Balogh :
    An interesting article on Hungarian-Russian relations. Also about Jobbik and Russia:
    http://magyarnarancs.hu/diplomaciai_jegyzet/a-magyar-orosz-kapcsolatok-ideologiai-hattere-89506

    Spot on.

    1. Fidesz and Jobbik do work together, they have essentially the same ideology only that of Jobbik is a bit more radical.

    2. Jobbik’s leadership contains people with interesting resumes (education in the Soviet Union, probable closeness to Hungarian/Russian security agencies etc.). Actually, the public does not really know Jobbik’s leadership and influential group of advisors that much.

    3. Jobbik is almost certainly supported financially by the Russians, as well as by election and organizational know-how.

    Question: what can we make of these?

    View Comment
  43. Eva S. Balogh :
    An interesting article on Hungarian-Russian relations. Also about Jobbik and Russia:
    http://magyarnarancs.hu/diplomaciai_jegyzet/a-magyar-orosz-kapcsolatok-ideologiai-hattere-89506

    Spot on article.

    1. Fidesz and Jobbik do work together behind the scenes, and they have essentially the same ideology only that of Jobbik is somewhat more radical.

    2. Jobbik’s leadership contains people with interesting resumes (education in the Soviet Union, probable closeness to Hungarian/Russian security agencies etc.). Actually, the public does not really know Jobbik’s leadership and influential group of advisors that much.

    3. Jobbik is almost certainly supported financially by the Russians, as well as by election and organizational know-how.

    Question: what can we make of these?

    View Comment
  44. Two decision were made against the Fidesz / Orban government today in the EU. One is at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg for human right violations about Religious Freedom. The second in Brussels about Orban / Fidesz firing of the Ombudsman.
    I am not sure if you will read about this on the government news portals.
    Also this wouldn’t have any effect on the election, as we all know that there are plenty of Hungarians who voted for Orban still believe about he conspiracy even in the EU against Hungary that only does not exist when the money is pouring in for renovations and rehabilitation of Hungary.

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  45. Spot on article by Ara-Kovacs.

    1. Fidesz and Jobbik do work together, they have essentially the same ideology only that of Jobbik is a bit more radical.

    2. Jobbik’s leadership contains people with interesting resumes (education in the Soviet Union, probable closeness to Hungarian/Russian security agencies etc.). Actually, the public does not really know Jobbik’s leadership and influential group of advisors that much.

    3. Jobbik is almost certainly supported financially by the Russians, as well as by election and organizational know-how.

    Question: what can we make of these?

    View Comment
  46. m= margin
    n= maximum number of the nomadic votes (election day official data)
    n+e= maximum number of the nomadic+embassy votes (post-election official estimate)

    I find the POST-election maximum (n+e) estimates way high!

    e for the entire country is 24,059
    Thus average e in an electoral district is just 227 voters.

    m; n; n+e

    *BP15; 22; 851; 2000
    *BP12; 253; 917; 1793
    Borsod02; 360; 1422; 2046
    BP05; 442; 1618; 3110
    *BP06; 448; 1337; 2498
    BP17; 484; 889; 2002
    *Heves02; 658; 1257; 2124
    BP09; 759; 1049; 2135
    BP16; 1063; 774; 2000
    BP10; 1225; 978; 1979
    *Borsod01; 1479; 1410; 2102
    *Szabolcs01; 1597; 1687; 2775
    *BP13; 1677; 742; 1924
    *Baranya02; 1936; 1316; 2034
    BP08; 1975; 1386; 2600
    *Baranya01; 1988; 1704; 2685
    *BP18; 2487; 959; 2322
    *Fejer04; 2597; 1148; 1518

    * Fidesz winning is in danger

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  47. Nice maps about party lists at town level, created at 8AM on April 7:

    Plurality:

    Second place:

    Difference between 1st and 2nd (“szazalekpont” cannot be right)

    Fidesz %

    United Opposition %

    Jobbik %

    LMP %

    Net cross/nomadic/migrant voters:

    View Comment
  48. OT – Utilities cuts

    Remember the last time I commented that our last month’s electricity bill didn’t arrive and upon checking with the elec. provider, they confirmed we owed them nothing.

    We were suspicious and never believed there’s “free lunch”

    sure enough when this month’s bill came in the mail just now, it consists of 2 months!

    Both of us just blurted out “disgusting!”. I wonder how the rest of the Hungarians who bought into this utilities cuts feel?

    View Comment
  49. wolfi :

    Not too much OT:

    The print edition of our German SPIEGEL on March 31st has a three page report on Szegedi Csanád and his new life as an active Jew in the synagogue.

    https://magazin.spiegel.de/digital/index_SP.html#SP/2014/14/126267999
    (The full text is behind apaywall, I’m sorry)

    There is a very good article by Cathrin Kahlweit on the election. Title: So simpel,, so verlogen.

    http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/wahlen-in-ungarn-so-simpel-so-verlogen-1.1930251

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  50. Eyewitness report from Szabadsag (Freedom) square on Klubradio:

    Orban started the building of the German occupation memorial, despite the previous opposition by lots of people and organizations..

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  51. Ygotam :

    tappanch :
    The admitted Fidesz aim is to double or triple the “Transylvanian” votes at the next election.

    You are right. At the next election there will be at least 300,000 Fidesz votes from Transylvania.
    Fidesz does not stop organizing for a second. And has not stopped since 2002.
    Smart people learn from the pros, though. The Left, however, is unable to learn and most importantly cannot implement.

    Fidesz is (opportunistically) imitating Jobbik, in order to capture the biases of the populace.

    If the opposition imitates Fidesz, Hungary is lost, absolutely and irretrievably.

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  52. I think we’ve got a nice neologism here: “Transylvanian ballot” as in: “don’t worry, a few Transylvanian ballots will break the impasse”; “Ok, that’s according to the latest polls, but don’t forget we’ve got those Transylvanian ballots”; “Tom here will take care of the Transylvanian ballots”. Add a wink and a nudge after each sentence.

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  53. Eva, I am very sorry to disagree with you. There IS “national unity”, in that 70% have voted – an overwhelming vote – for xenophobic parties (who co-operate as a matter of course at a local level) of the extreme right … in some parts of Hungary that figure was 80%. Such a vote for nationalism and hatred IS unprecedented in the EU. And the Jobbik literature that I received during the election campaign didn’t suggest a new cuddly Jobbik; neither did having Romantic Violence headlining their pre-election shindig.

    I’m not remotely convinced by some of the positivity expressed here. There are no straws to be clutched at. The rise of Jobbik, consistent over 8 years, is inexorable and beyond alarming. Comfortably garnering almost a quarter of the votes, it is now certainly possible to envisage a fascist party forming the next Hungarian government … with Fidesz as a minority coalition partner.

    It’s not time to leave. It’s time to escape.

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  54. Wow, the seemingly well renumerated English mother tongue Fidesz trolls – we really must come up with a nickname for them – have really taken out against Gati. Check out the accompanying post-article comments – makes their discourse here seem like child’s play…

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  55. Protest against Orban’s history distorting memorial for the German occupation at 7PM tonight.

    (The original Orban decree on December 31, specifically stated that it is a German occupation memorial without mentioning the victims)

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  56. Ivan, “positive” is also a question of the expectations that one had. My were very low indeed. The result of Jobbik is no doubt adding to the general disaster in Hungary, and Orban can use their result also to say that only thanks to the new election system, they are not present in the parliament in higher numbers. And yet these people have not voted for Orban, although he is the “winner” and the “strong figure”, so apparently he is not the one who “unites the nation”. Fidesz may be leaning towards their nationalist programme, but in its core OV and his people are interested only in power and wealth. OV is not motivated by ideology (except the decisive importance of power in general), as can be also deduced from the distance that he has travelled up to date and his considerable flexibility. As regards the average voter, I agree that it would of great use if he was offered less extremist explanations for Hungary’s current troubles, but this has to be provided by those people more at the centre of the political spectrum. 26 % + 5 % of votes for these people are certainly more than I had hoped for.

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  57. Kirsten #30 “Fidesz may be leaning towards their nationalist programme, but in its core OV and his people are interested only in power and wealth.”

    This is evidently the core truth.

    The victims are all Hungarians.

    The task is to restore our freedom.

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  58. @FREE free

    “….interested only in power and wealth.”

    Let me add another: if we could access his psychiatrist, he might tell us that he’s also invested
    in the humiliation of the population, as well.

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  59. CNN today had a list of the top 20 cities to visit. Budapest did not make it. Apparently, the great leader used his customary charm and persuasive techniques and….lo and behold…
    Budapest arrived….at number 21. Congratulations! And when the German commemorative
    statue will be affixed, the city will be ‘on the move’ again (I predict).

    View Comment
  60. So, 2 days after his election victory, the spiritual heir to the Arrow Cross spits on the victims of the Holocaust in Hungary.

    He is truly a despicable human being, never mind politician.
    But I guess he is only giving what he knows the typical Fidesz voter wants, an anti-Semitic, revisionist version of history- always the victims, it was never their fault.

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  61. oneill :
    So, 2 days after his election victory, the spiritual heir to the Arrow Cross spits on the victims of the Holocaust in Hungary.
    He is truly a despicable human being, never mind politician.
    But I guess he is only giving what he knows the typical Fidesz voter wants, an anti-Semitic, revisionist version of history- always the victims, it was never their fault.

    ORBÁN ORMÁNY

    In re-activating this odious project the day after his “landslide,” Orban is saying: “Now I can do anything I want.”

    And he’s right — partly because the voters (and non-voters) gave him that right, and partly because what Orban wants is what he perceives the voters want, in order to ensure that they keep voting for him (though he has a lot of back-up tricks to make sure he retains that right) so that he can do whatever he wants.

    Those who keep carping at the opposition’s failings are simply missing the elephant in the room (though elephants are noble creatures, and so this cliché is an insult to them…).

    I am convinced that this propensity to blame the opposition’s loss on the opposition’s incompetence rather than on Orban’s psychopathy and the Hungarian majority’s complicity is more than anything a symptom of how pervasive and pernicious has been the power of Fidesz’s foul FUD.

    (Little as I like Mesterházy, I think he was quite right to cry “foul” rather than genteelly congratulating the winners on their well-deserved Viktory. To do otherwise would be to expect the victim to bless the crime. Without all the dirty tricks — media control, legal hijinks, gerry-mandering and all the rest — the left could and should have won: the Hungarian majority is not as obtuse as that, if given half a chance.)

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  62. I agree, Stevan. I am delighted that Mesterhazy did not hypocritically congratulate his opponent on a fine victory after a fair fight and an excellent campaign. There was NO campaign, no manifesto, no debate, little impartial coverage. This was not a normal election. This was not a fair election. Congratulations would have been out of order and ridiculous.

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  63. Nobody said Mesterhazy should have congratulated to the “well deserved victory”. I would have rather expected conceding gracefully with a few clever prickly remarks. To me the sheer fact the he is incapable of it is a proof of his incompetence.

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  64. @Steven Harnard: “I am convinced that this propensity to blame the opposition’s loss on the opposition’s incompetence rather than on Orban’s psychopathy and the Hungarian majority’s complicity is more than anything a symptom of how pervasive and pernicious has been the power of Fidesz’s foul FUD.”

    Exactly.

    Also… the opposition made a lot of mistakes and it would be great to have more formidable leaders, but they actually did something. I have all the respect for the effort they put into this. It is always easier to criticize those who act than acting ourselves.

    Maybe those of us who are discontent with the opposition could look into ways of becoming politically more active. Even if only in small ways…just to see what we can do.

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  65. Együtt 2034 :
    ” rel=”nofollow”>
    Second place at local level :) Eat your hearts out postcommies. Hope this does’t give you scum a heart attack.

    Are you posting this to Simon, Kovacs, etc.? THey are the fans of Fidesz on this blog. Fidesz has the most members who served the Communist Party under Kadar and the Young Communists. Especially Orban and Kover were very tight with the regime at the time. No kidding that this is the trend of most Fidesz supporters. WHat to expect of course when Orban was a liberal to begin with, had a party where the membership was up to 35, hated the Russians. Look at him now! Everything is the opposite.
    Thank you for supporting the opposition parties Egyutt 2034! Yu are a rest guy for being so transparent about how you feel. I do not wish a hart attach for those post commies Fidesz fans. Do not forget only Fidesz fans can be so rude. I agree down with all this two-faced Fidesz people! WE are still waiting to hear about the Rogan millions. Do not worry, it will all come out!

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  66. I erased Egyutt 2034’s comment. He must be writing from Hungary. It is there that this style is not only tolerated by encouraged. Especially among the Fidesz-Jobbik sympathizers. It tells a lot about these people.

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  67. @Petofi – “CNN today had a list of the top 20 cities to visit. Budapest did not make it. Apparently, the great leader used his customary charm and persuasive techniques and….lo and behold…
    Budapest arrived….at number 21. Congratulations! And when the German commemorative
    statue will be affixed, the city will be ‘on the move’ again (I predict).”

    I hate to disappoint you “Petofi”, but the upcoming movie: – The Grand Budapest Hotel – starring Ralph Fiennes, Adrian Brody (Hungarian born parents) will most definitely be the best advertizing Hungary could ever hoped for! (You see, the majority of Hungarian Jews have good intention and love Hungary).

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  68. latefor :
    @Petofi – “CNN today had a list of the top 20 cities to visit. Budapest did not make it. Apparently, the great leader used his customary charm and persuasive techniques and….lo and behold…
    Budapest arrived….at number 21. Congratulations! And when the German commemorative
    statue will be affixed, the city will be ‘on the move’ again (I predict).”
    I hate to disappoint you “Petofi”, but the upcoming movie: – The Grand Budapest Hotel – starring Ralph Fiennes, Adrian Brody (Hungarian born parents) will most definitely be the best advertizing Hungary could ever hoped for! (You see, the majority of Hungarian Jews have good intention and love Hungary).

    Yeah, right.
    Tell me, as a self-respecting Protestant or Catholic, how do you feel when your Prime Minister
    designates the country as CHRISTIAN Hungary, thereby relegating all non-Christians to 2nd class status?
    Are you fine with that?
    How do your Liberal/Democratic sensibilities square with that?

    (Or, is empathy a non-existent virtue in heroic Hungary?
    By the way, ‘to be proud’….you have to have what to be proud of..)

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  69. @latefor

    By the way, the last time European jews had ‘good intentions’ where back in the 1930’s when
    Europe’s foremost jews–the German jews–could not believe that their beloved homeland
    would do anything to harm them. Ahem.

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  70. The “Goverment”, the One and Only, will block everything perhaps on Hungarian soil. This is being written in the free world. What a pity!

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  71. @Petofi – “Yeah, right.
    Tell me, as a self-respecting Protestant or Catholic, how do you feel when your Prime Minister
    designates the country as CHRISTIAN Hungary, thereby relegating all non-Christians to 2nd
    class status?
    Are you fine with that?
    How do your Liberal/Democratic sensibilities square with that?

    (Or, is empathy a non-existent virtue in heroic Hungary?
    By the way, ‘to be proud’….you have to have what to be proud of..)”

    As I said before, the majority of Hungarians are Christians. The majority of Tibetans are Buddhists; the majority of Indians are Hindus; the majority of Italians, Brazilians, Portuguese and Spanish are Christians; the majority of Israelis are Jews….and so goes the list.

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  72. @Petofi – “By the way, the last time European jews had ‘good intentions’ where back in the 1930′s when
    Europe’s foremost jews–the German jews–could not believe that their beloved homeland
    would do anything to harm them. Ahem.”

    I sympatise with you regarding the suffering of Jews during the Second World War, but with all due respect, in my view, you are actually provoking non-Jewish people with your comments on this blog and I do not think that you are serving the best interest of all the innocent Jews in Hungary.

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  73. The elections are over. The machinery goes on. The German memorial will stand, Veritas will publish its books, and place its people into positions of power.

    History will be rewritten.

    Remember: now that Jobbik is stronger than ever, Fidesz must compete with Jobbik even harder. These gestures are just the very beginning.

    Plus, the memorial was long ready, Fidesz only waited a bit, but it is clear that even the citizens of Budapest support Fidesz, so there is no point in retreating.

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  74. We can add another new lie to Viktor Orbán’s list. He promised that the government will have a calm discussion on the issue of the controversial monument the government wants to erect to commemorate the German occupation of Hungary on Mach 19, 1944. Well, he lied. Work on the monument began this morning, Easter Sunday will be on April 20.

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  75. The liberals of Budapest must be humiliated. They will be. That is Orban’s and his circle’s (including Jobbik) foremost goal. They are bullies and just love to torment liberals. They will continue to do so. The German memorial is only the very beginning. The election results are a new reminder to everybody who doubted his power — he is here, stronger than almost any politician in Europe, and given the election system, he is here to stay. In four years he will methodically demolish any sings of a liberal Budapest, which will be gone for good, never to return.

    He is purposefully showing to everybody that he can lie, he can steal, he can bully everybody and nobody can do a thing — his constituency adores him and will be enough to vote him back to power for elections to come.

    In addition there are the Jobbik voters, which are considered reserve Fidesz voters. As Fidesz could engineer a coalition with them rather easily. Now that Jobbik is de facto mainstream, Fidesz can even more easily work with them if necessary (not yet, although they do work together behind the scenes).

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  76. @latefor

    So, because the majority of Hungarians are christians, it is ok to call the country Christian Hungary, huh?

    Wow. Hungarians are ever so smart and hip.

    Who’s going to inform the Italians, the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese…et. al…that they’re ‘out of the loop’…that to be au courant, they must rename themselves like the heroic Hungarians?

    And what about jews? They’ve only got one country but so far have restrained themselves from designating it as “jewish Israel”. I wonder why.

    AND, as for serving the best interests of “INNOCENT JEWS IN HUNGARY”…what exactly does that mean? Are you referring to those guilty jews who still insist on using the blood of innocent Christian virgins in the making of matzah? (Let me assure you that those matzos are
    specialty items and are rarely purchased by todays cheap jews. So there’s hardly any demand…)

    My god, now I know why Lao Tzu went over the wall…

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  77. @latefor

    My last sally.
    My advice, sir, is that you google Diogenes. It may lead you to some understanding.
    What’s more Provocation can sometimes lead to Enlightenment…but I warn you, sir, for some
    it is a long and wearying road…

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  78. @Petofi – Dear God, you are an EXPERT at twisting, confusing and provoking! I’m NOT going to be drawn into your twisted argument. God bless.

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  79. Can somebody provide quotes for such advocating?

    2012:
    Mr Gyongyosi said: “Jews are looking to build outside of Israel. There is a kind of expansionism in their behaviour. If Peres is supporting colonisation, it is a natural reaction for people to feel that Jews are not welcome here.”

    Is that all? A quote taken from a speech out of context by a hostile journalist is a prove to you of the party’s intention to expel the Jews? What about their program? You will not find something like this in their program, right?

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  80. @whoever – Would you please ask Eva to take away the quotation mark of your answer #36. It looks like you are quoting me and I’m NOT happy! Please use your own thoughts in the future. Thank you.

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