German-Hungarian dialogues: Munich and Berlin

A few months ago, on August 7, 2014, Professor Charles Gati wrote an important article about Viktor Orbán’s Hungary,”The Mask Is Off.” The article was inspired by the Hungarian prime minister’s infamous speech on his plans to finish the job of building an “illiberal state” in Hungary. “Orbán has now dropped his democratic mask,” Gati announced. What followed was a thorough analysis of Orbán’s political system. At the end of the article Gati listed options the United States had for influencing Hungarian domestic politics. Among them, he mentioned the possibility of the United States “actively encouraging the European Union . . . to put the question of Hungarian membership in the EU firmly on the agenda.” That is, the European Union should no longer stand by helplessly watching Hungarian domestic developments and the increasingly anti-EU rhetoric of Orbán and his pro-Russian orientation.

If you watched the Budapest Beacon‘s interview with Kim Lane Scheppele, you undoubtedly noticed her rather optimistic assertion that now that Jean-Claude Juncker has finished creating his “cabinet,” Hungary’s case will finally be put on the agenda. If that happens, the question will be how the sides line up. Just today an article appeared entitled “EU allies alarmed at Hungary’s Kremlin drift,” which indicated that opposition to Orbán is growing even in the German Christian Democratic Party, which is in many ways the most important ingredient in an anti-Orbán coalition within the EU.

One of the few places west of Hungary where Viktor Orbán is still welcome in an official capacity is Bavaria, where on November 6 he was greeted by Horst Seehofer, minister president of Bavaria, as the democratically elected head of a coalition government. Hungarian reports indicated that Orbán’s visit was not without its critics but that Seehofer, the leader of the very conservative Christian Social Union, stood by Orbán. However, in an interview that appeared in the conservative Die Welt on November 8 one can see several not so subtle differences between the two men.

Horst Seehofer and Viktor Orbán in Munich Source: Die Welt / Photo Jörg Fokuh

Horst Seehofer and Viktor Orbán in Munich
Source: Die Welt / Photo Jörg Fokuh

Seehofer wholeheartedly supports the European Union and does not see the kind of crisis Orbán invokes every time he has the opportunity. Seehofer talked about big union projects while Orbán thinks that each country is responsible for its own economy and that joint projects must wait. Seehofer wants to widen the eurozone and urges countries outside of that zone to introduce the structural reforms necessary to be eligible for membership. Orbán spoke sharply against the euro and made it clear that he wants none of it. At this point Seehofer became just a tad sharper in his response. He defended the euro as “the basis of our high standard of living.” Orbán did not give up. For him “the future of the euro is unclear.” Well, that was too much for Seehofer, who said that “the euro stays!”

Seehofer might be a good friend of Orbán, but he firmly believes in the founding principles of the European Union: “a value system based on democracy, justice, tolerance, and Christianity.” These values are much more important than a community based only on economic interests.

Finally there were questions concerning the Ukrainian crisis and, although Orbán tried to be diplomatic and not show his true colors on the subject, he indicated that helping Ukraine financially would be difficult. It would cost too much and “I have no idea where we are going to get that much money.” As for Putin, naturally Orbán said nothing about his relationship with Russia, but Seehofer made it clear that he no longer trusts the Russian president.

German-Hungarian relations, even in the most favorable case of Bavaria, are not without their problems. Other German politicians have been more outspoken about Hungary’s place in the European Union. Let’s start with Michael Roth, undersecretary of the German foreign ministry, who was also interviewed by Die Welt (November 12). The whole interview is about Hungary. According to Roth, “we are currently conducting an intensive debate on democracy and the rule of law in the European Union.” He expressed his satisfaction that the new Commission attaches such great importance to this issue. He is especially glad that Frans Timmermans, deputy president, “wants to increase the EU’s credibility in constitutional questions.” Roth was obviously talking about Hungary when he said that western countries press for democratic rights in China and Russia, but how can they be credible if they tolerate the lack of such values within the Union.

Roth brought up Article 7 of the European Constitution, which would take away rogue nations’ voting rights in the case of a gross violation of European values, and indicated that as far as he was concerned this measure “was an appropriate means in many cases,” certainly in cases like Hungary because he sees no improvement in Hungary as far as individual liberties, the rule of law, and the fight against corruption are concerned. All in all, Roth is watching the developments in Hungary with “great concern” because the existence of “liberal democracy is seriously in doubt in Hungary.”

And if that weren’t enough, there was the warning from Frank-Walter Steinmeier, German foreign minister, a couple of days ago when Péter Szijjártó visited Berlin. Steinmeier called on the Hungarian government to comply with fundamental democratic values.”There can be no doubt that all members of the European Union must be committed to the rule of law and the canon of civil rights,” Steinmeier said. How much Szijjártó understood is unclear, especially since in his answer he talked about Hungary’s “balanced, healthy, and pragmatic relations with Russia.” He also tried to assure his German counterpart that any “violation of international law,” presumably by Russia, is “unacceptable to Hungary.”

Péter Szijjártó and Frank-Walter Steinmeier in Berlin Source: Die Welt / Photo Bernd von Jutrczenka

Péter Szijjártó and Frank-Walter Steinmeier in Berlin
Source: Die Welt / Photo Bernd von Jutrczenka

Not only does Szijjártó seem to be impervious to words of warning in Germany and elsewhere, his prime minister is practically taunting western politicians to go to battle with him. I’m almost certain that there will come a time when his wishes will be fulfilled.

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Zsolt
Guest

During reading this article I tried to recall every comment, speech, or “just a word” from Chancellor Merkel if she was with Mr. Orbán, against, she just likes the illiberal ideal; the FIDESZ is still member of the European People’s Party.

Member

Szijj-Ártó is NOT a diplomat, he will never even understand the meaning of the word. I could list at least 50 really bad adjectives to describe him, but it is not worth anyone’s time. He emulates and imitates the viktor, who is a very very low class criminal and he is the Godfather of the Mafia Government in Hungary.
The viktor was pulled out from the cow’s shit by George Soros, who put shoes and a suit on him, and sent him to study in England. But after 8 months of ditching school the viktor remained just as low class, filthy, lying thief, as he was before. So he went home and became a politician. This is the man Szijj-Ártó worships, since he was a kid in Fidelitas and he follows every vicious order the viktor gives him. North-Korea has better diplomats, than this young ass, who could only qualify as an apprentice to a shoe shiner. That way, he could not sell axe murderers to Azeri dictators for bakshis, schmiergeld, or large bribe, by any other word.

Őrgróf
Guest

bognar, you are a piece of shit retarded troll. How much money do you get for coming here and trolling this blog?

Trying to portray the decent anti-Fidesz people as low intelligence, idiots, who cannot express themselves without using phrases like “cow’s shit” or intentionally misspelling the names of people we criticize. It is incredibly childish and counter-productive on purpose.

I hope you get paid enough for this you disgusting excuse for a human. This blog has intelligent debate, high quality comments on the side of those who critique the Orban-regime. You should go back to where you came from because your efforts to infiltrate this blog are failing.

Member

ŐRGRÓG The article was not about me, your comment does not deserve an answer!

Member

@ Őrgróf: With all due respect, gybognarjr has been around this blog for a very long time, and he provides his full name and his own photograph to his comments. Let just say, he is braver than most of us. It is not that I agree all the time with gybognarjr but let me assure you he is not a troll, and in fact he is a very sharp man. I can’t really recall your comments from this blog, good or bad, so please extend some courtesy and let some of the “old” regulars blow of some steam time-to-time.

@gybognarjr: Now tell us how you really feel about Szijjarto! LOL

Member
Thank You Éva: Szijj-Ártó had an interview two days ago I think, in the Budapest Business Journal. In your opinion, does a diplomat say something like this? Quote: „azzal vádolni minket, hogy nem illeszkedünk az európai jogrendszerbe, s ne lennénk Európa-pártiak, ORBITÁLIS-HAZUGSÁG. “to accuse us, that we don’t fit into the European Judicial system (or Constitutional State) and that we would not be pro EU, is an orbital lye. (this is about US criticism) I am not a diplomat and I am not even diplomatic, when I have to tell my opinion about the members of the Hungarian Government and Government Administrators, which are made up entirely of criminals, idiots and organized crime members, I could use many unprintable words. So I can call them anything I want to, and I assure you, they deserve adjectives, which would evaporate the ink on the paper, if I would write them. Diplomats NEVER use the word “lye” in public and in an interview, especially “orbitally (large) lye”, even against a Government like North Korea. So to say it in public demonstrates the temperament and the lack of diplomatic training. Szijj-Ártó is a very primitive and a cheating, conniving thief, a prick if… Read more »
Guest

@gybogbarjr: Wow

Guest

Excuse me. n not b.

Max
Guest

The German-Hungarian relations are experiencing a historic low.

It went as far as Berlin rewriting its own history on the fall of the Berlin Wall in order to expel Hungary as a key player in those triumphant moments:

http://privatbankar.hu/makro/romlo-kapcsolatok-retusalt-emlekek-ezt-kapjuk-orban-pavatancaert-274637

Member
MAX: I think that the pecking order now, (because of the Russian-Ukraine situation) is as follows: USA-Germany-EU members backing Germany-France and perhaps G.B. but since they are one leg out, they weight in with the US on foreign policy only. Did you notice, I did NOT mention Hungary? The Stadionbuilder viktor has delusions and dreams and conducts himself (serious, I am NOT exaggerating) as a king. He thinks, abroad they regard him with respect to, because he has no sense of diplomacy. He thinks the smiley are a sign of respect and not scorn, irony and disdain. He said it Friday in the Radio. Quote: “I took 1,300 Billion from the banks and I gave it to the people.” In the USA it would be admission of bank robbery and lifetime sentence.In Hungary they worship him. I name it the fair King Mathias syndrome. Except! King Mathias Corvinus (1458-1490) was a renaissance king, enlightened, (illuminato) sponsored the arts, sciences, brought Hungary into the renaissance age. He was very, very successful, plus a good international politician of his time, a good general and expanded Hungary into a very respectable major force in Europe. The fable says, he was very just and… Read more »
Zoltan Geza
Guest
The Germans are insanely naive and timid. They all want to repent for their Nazi sins (still in 2014) and for the fact that they are the richest and biggest (80m) nation within Europe. They desperately want to be liked and avoid any conflicts which might call attention to their inherent power. Plus, they can afford not to care, the entire Hungary’s GDP is roughly equal to (probably smaller than) that of the greater München area (and of course München’s economy is infinitely more competitive and diverse) and a fraction that of Bavaria’s. The Germans are extremely diplomatic and seemingly don’t get it that in Hungary diplomacy doesn’t work. The question for Orban and his people always: is this *formally* legal? And if not, can we make it legal? (By amending the constitution or the laws?) Can we still do it even if we enter into legal proceedings which last for ever? (Like building South Stream which will stand by the time any EU legal procedure ends — obviously the EU can’t order the destruction of a pipeline). And so on. Non lawyers cannot really understand this thinking. As they say in Hungary threatening a lawyer with a lawsuit is… Read more »
Member

ZOLTAN GÉZA: The Germans are NOT exactly timid, I should say instead, they are careful and they like to be smooth and successful, with general approval from the majority. Militarily they have very few options and they are NOT stupid like others. They know what Theodore Roosevelt believed in. “Speak softly, but carry a big stick.” We are the big stick, behind Angela Merkel’s back, but she had to make sure, we are there.

Guest

@gybognarjr:

I like your style – and the pictures on your site (can’t read the Hungarian text too well though …)!
http://juliusjr.wordpress.com/

Re the German – Hungarian relations I can only repeat:

Der Krug geht so lange zum Brunnen bis er bricht …

Member

WOLFI: The viktor IS a ” jughead”, as you surmised.
Note: Stupid leaders hire people to support him, who are less astute, then them, the only qualifications is to be very good at saying “yes” and to be a brown-noser. This assures, that the gang’s performance is dismal, as you have seen it.

steve397
Guest

The Hungarian Prime Minister’s mention that the Aide Memoire received from the US Embassy in Budapest is just a “fecni” (loosely translated into a “scrap paper”) shows his ignorance of what is standard in diplomatic circles. Maybe his 36 years old Foreign Minister could have been of assistance, although he is more versed in explaining how he can save out of his salary more than he ever received. In any case the scrap paper has listed the alleged crimes of the person accused and disallowed to visit USA and yet there is no investigation into what the head of NAV (the Hungarian Tax Office) is being accused.

D7 Democrat
Guest

“Szijj-Ártó is a very primitive and a cheating, conniving thief, a prick if you wish, who measures success only by the accumulated money.”

Not just our pathetic joke of our foreign minister but the regime described in one succinct sentence.

And it is with this kind of contempt (not with barely-concealed admiration such as that revealed with our resident Fidesz Groupie, “Zoltan Gera”) that all civilized people should regard the mafia ruling our country.

Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10)
Guest
ZsoltDuring reading this article I tried to recall every comment, speech, or “just a word” from Chancellor Merkel if she was with Mr. Orbán, against, she just likes the illiberal ideal; the FIDESZ is still member of the European People’s Party. Did you forget this one? But your comment is indeed relevant., since the CDU is heavily dominating the group with 29 MEPs. Now, we’ve already discussed this several times in the comments of this fall’s articles regarding the European Commission. It seems obvious to me that support for Fidesz within the EPP Group in Strasbourg has considerably withered, not the least because of the Hungarian PM’s opposition to the nomination of Juncker. I find it interesting that Orbán now meets with Seehofer, and not a CDU bigwhig. The German conservative press has been criticizing the Hungarian Gov’t harshly since this summer, without – as far as I know – any declaration of support by CDU representatives on the other hand. Same with Roth and Steinmeier’s declarations (they may be SPD, but they’re still gov’t members). And I’m not so sure Fidesz can expect much support from French and Polish MEPs, for different reasons. But on the other hand, the… Read more »
Zoltan Geza
Guest
D7 Democrat: It’s not admiration in the proper sense of the word. I try to be blunter and a bit provocative because most Western readers (perhaps not the regular ones) I fear still approach Orban’s mafia from an inherently naive and trusting (and rarely really caring) starting point. Truth be told they can’t really do otherwise, their value system is just different. With wily, paranoid KGB people like Putin or Orban this conciliatory, cooperative, let’s have an honest debate, let’s use diplomacy, let’s hear the other side of the story, oh, they suffered so much, let’s be generous with them, we have to trust each other etc. approach will lead absolutely nowhere. This timidity is seen as a fundamental weakness and a clear invitation to unabashedly take advantage of the West. What I think the West can’t understand about Orban is that rationally Hungary depends on the West, so no sane politician – in Western thinking – would be expected to be such a belligerent jerk. But Orban knows that the West in political terms is fundamentally weak and divided and doesn’t care (as it showed in countless international conflicts), so its Orban’s for the taking. And he takes a… Read more »
Member
Zoltan Géza: I agree with what you say. I add a “short” comment. I visit my mom and lots of friends every year in Budapest. The sons, grandsons of my mom’s and my friends don’t think as Westerners in politics, only think as we do, when the go shopping to the Plazas, or watching movies, buying a car, etc. Democracy is NOT on their wish list. I was told by many young people. They think, debates waste time, they like quick decisions, whatever pleases them most. The people cannot FEEL, what it means to live in a democracy, think as a democratic, non-racist person and behave and live as such, EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY. We, who lived decades in a democratic country and assimilated well, behave instinctly according to the democratic values. Not because we plan every action, every sentence, but, because it comes naturally, people around us do the same. You cannot study democracy in a very corrupt (morally and monetarily) society and develop the instinct for recognizing instantly the slightest racism, discrimination, the miscarriage of justice, the infringements of basic human rights. So many of these pass them by. So many of them “slides” a bit, permissive… Read more »
Béla
Guest

A ticket controller on a Budapest tram goes berserk and calls the Hungarian (!) passenger a “dirty, American, fa**ot”, among other less kind words.

Note that being “American” among the discontent working class (a completely jobbik-fidesznik crowd to where this poor ticket controller belongs) is now a standard hate/curse word.

I guess nobody should underestimate how thorough Fidesz’ brainwash is among its target audience.

The readers of 444.hu are a tiny minority of Hungarians.

http://index.hu/belfold/budapest/2014/11/15/uvoltve_karomkodott_egy_ellenor_a_villamoson/

Member
Béla: I agree. Because of the ever stronger anti-American sentiment, I think we smartly do our work diplomatically and behind the Germans. Many Hungarians like the Germans, regardless of their affiliation to the right or left, but years of brainwash makes many hate Americans and part of it is what they call “yellow envy”. Brainwashed, that Americans don’t have history and culture. Yet they don’t know all the accomplishments that American people, many who came from other countries because the lack of appreciations, influenced human life more than any other society before us. Thousands of artists, scientists, engineers, politicians and everyday businessman, whose work left its stamp on our lives and made the progress and drove the World ahead. Coca Cola, Goodyear, Apple was not a multi-national company in the 1800’s or even in 1996. One man, Steve Jobs took his reacquired company worth exactly $0.00 (with the debt and the annual losses) received $100 million (stock option) loan from Bill Gates (Microsoft) and in 18 years he made it into the World’s most valuable, most recognized company. Why? Because we don’t ask, where are you from, what religion you have, what is your race, what is your political orientation… Read more »
Member
OT: Couple of “small news” about other subjects related to previous conversations. Here are the good things that Orban and his puppet government should follow and embrace. Vienna inaugurated monument to World War Two deserters. “Austria’s parliament voted in 2009 — over the objections of far-right parties — to clear the reputations of those who met disdain and abuse for refusing to follow the Nazi line.” “The monument, designed by German artist Olaf Nicolai, depicts a three-level form in the shape of an X, meant to symbolize the plight of the individual pitted against society’s power. It stands in the Ballhausplatz in central Vienna, near the presidency and chancellery. Seen from above, an inscription carved into the monument spells out “all alone”. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/24/us-austria-deserters-idUSKCN0ID22Y20141024 Budapest’s ELTE inaugurated a wonderful monument that remembers the WWII victims of the university (Jewish or not). 198 names have been engraved in a thin bronze line around a garden between the bricks. There was a competition between various groups composed of teachers and students with various ideas from the Hungarian Architecture Society’s Master Course. The submissions were exhibited in various buildings of the university. The winning entry contains the names of jews, non-jews, soldiers, and forced… Read more »
NewIdea
Guest

Greetings from Dusseldorf.
I heard from all Germans and categorical rejection of the Orban regime.
All can see the terrible disintegration of Hungary.
I think 2/3 of the Hungarians are also on the opposition line,too.
Just 2/3 of the Parliament does not get it.

Member

TROLL TACTICS 101

#TT1: Any anonymous poster (e.g. “Őrgroaf”) who publicly accuses a non-anonymous poster of being a troll is a troll. (No need to read any further.)

(There is — understandably — a good deal of frustration and even paranoia these days about trolling, especially in connection with Hungary, where political trollery has been elevated to the level of statecraft by the cynically demagogic and systemically criminal Orban Octopus. I don’t think the M.O. is an import from Putin’s Russia — it’s just a case of independent opportunistic discovery, by like-minded sociopaths. U.S. Tea-Party factions no doubt sink almost as low, but without a criminal government behind them. And, alas, troll-busters can be or become just as bad as their adversaries. And that’s the main objective of trollery: diversion and degradation.)

spectator
Guest

Well, the image of Horst Seehofer and Viktor Orbán in Munich has a strong resemblance to some amateurish high-school play, one nearly can see the helpers from 3B holding the flags offstage… What a pitiful exhibition of “statesmanship”..!

Typical, nevertheless.
This whole government reeking of the total lack of professionalism, I even dare say the lack of everyday civilised social manners are striking. Somehow they didn’t get it that to learn the rules of diplomatic protocols and etiquette is a basic requirement of their job!

What I mean? The bon vivant of Felcsút at work:

comment image
comment image

– and that’s about all for diplomacy what he and his government capable of.

However, one or other axe-murderer for sale, or the “Free Tibet” activists holding by the police at the “right time” put some flourish in their achievement, so we can not complain, really..!

Guest

Very nicely said – that’s also what I like about the USA – though I really dislike those 40% or so (mainly in the Bible Belt – which btw is now the Obesity Belt …) which you could call Creationists, rednecks, white trash – whatever …

I probably was lucky that my travels (business and holiday) took me usually to the East Coast or California – Florida also was ok …

To be honest in Germany also we have that very conservative (should I say primitive?) group of people – but the group seems to be getting smaller, though they’ll never disappear.

You’lll always find these people who think that the old days were better, people knew their place(!), they did not have to cope with all that new stuff, those pesky foreigners everywhere – just continue the list …

Obviously there are a lot of people like that in Hungary and my wife tells me that the transition to Kadarism and from Kadarism to “democracy Fidesz style” was no problem for them at all!

Member

ORBAN: “This is just a scrap of paper. If it weren’t in English, I’d think it was written by an opposition party…”

This is the sort of petty pugilism that will be Orban’s undoing. He is megalomanic, demagogic, amoral, corrupt and extremely greedy, but above all he is paranoid, and delusional. Up to a point, that feeds into a national culture with a similar bent; but ultimately he will go even beyond the Hungarian persecution complex, and then Hungarians themselves will be perceived as part of the “opposition.” That’s the point where the Stalins and Kims of the world institute a police state, but Orban will not have as free a hand as that. There’s a big world out there too, watching…

Guest

The SPIEGEL reports:

Mrs Merkel and Putin had a long “private” talk – almost two hours, just the two of them! Juncker joined them for another two hours …
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/merkel-und-putin-reden-vier-stunden-auf-g20-gipfel-a-1003187.html

Kirsten
Guest
Zoltan Geza: “most Western readers (perhaps not the regular ones) I fear still approach Orban’s mafia from an inherently naive and trusting (and rarely really caring) starting point” What makes you believe that? “Most Western” people will not know exactly where Hungary is, and even if they know they will tell you that this is some small country in weird Eastern Europe. So, it is very likely that manners there are also weird, and that politicians from there at best try hard but cannot escape their provincial outlook. (But it is more likely that they are some regional princes within their provincial networks of a rather backward country.) So, Hungary is treated accordingly, some small country that sends us this nuisance of a prime minister. And, surprisingly perhaps for you, it is a rather large number of Hungarians who appear to be “inherently naive and trusting” as they even go to elections to give this mafia boss political legitimacy. Who consider gas prices the ultimate proof of Orban’s good will and of “democracy”, even if the bill to be paid to the Russians can already now be called gigantic. Hungary is to some extent still sovereign, and this is how… Read more »
Member

Az Amerika ellenes hangulatra és gondolkodásra való bizonyíték látható a videon.

Magyar villamosellenőr a 49-es villamoson. Öt perces otromba, durva, káromkodásokkal teli veszekedés, az utasokat is beleértve
http://propeller.hu/itthon/3019967-magabol-kikelve-uvoltott-ellenor-utassal?utm_source=mm-2014-11-15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Magából kikelve üvöltött az ellenőr az utassal

Az ellenőr szerint, a potyázó utas, sok-sok durva káromkodások közepette :
“mocsos, buzi, Amerikai” aki miatt nincs semmi rendben az országban.

Magyarországon Amerika ellenességre tanítják az embereket, évek óta. Tévhitben élnek sokan, hogy a magyar ember jobb, mint bárki más, csak azért, mert magyar. Aki nem magyar, az automatikusan kevesebb. Mi sem áll távolabb a valóságtól.

Ezért, a kormány azt hirdeti: “Magyarország Jobban Teljesít!” “Tiszteletet Követelünk Brüsszeltől!

Engem az USA-ban, 45 év év alatt, soha, senki nem illetett egyetlen rossz szóval, hogy “magyar” vagy máshol született ember vagyok, ismétlem SOHA! Pedig voltak veszekedéseim néha-néha.

Egyébként hosszú évek óta nem vagyok magyar, hanem asszimilálódtam és Hungarian-Amerikcan vagyok, mint mások, Irish-Americans, German-Americans, British-Americans, Afro-Americans, ma már kevesen észlelnék azt is, hogy valaha magyar voltam.

Ami az utóbbi 24-25 évben megy végbe Magyarországon, különösen 2010 óta nemhogy nem tölt el büszkeséggel származásom eredete iránt, de örülök, hogy már régen nem Magyarország a hazám! Nagyon sokan vagyunk így, remélem többen, mint akik a viktorra fognak szavazni 2016-ban!

Guest

@gybognarjr:

Well, I had to laugh at “mocsos, buzi, Amerikai” (That much Hungarian I can understand …) but would you be so kind to help me and others with the rest?

Thanks in advance!

PS:

I hope your Hungarian texts are as nice as your English ones!

Member
I profoundly apologize, I put the Hungarian text on this blog, I posted on another blog of my friends, predominantly Hungarians. Short comment, because the tram inspector’s words are only crude expletives. My comment is this: Hungarians are proud to have higher culture, than Americans and think of themselves better than anyone else, simply because they are Hungarians. Germans had the same attitude in Hitler’s time and were proven wrong. They are much better learners than Hungarians and will not repeat the mistake. They came from the status of the most hated people in the World to be very well respected again. I tip my hat to them! The Hungarian Government therefore adopted the slogan: “Hungary is doing better!” then when they got more western criticism, the posted slogans “Hungary demands respect from Brussels.” The attitude as you see is never to learn, analyze what is fair criticism and improve, but lazily just shout louder, that “Look I am doing better”. ======== I live in the USA for 45 years now and I NEVER ever got a comment, that I am some kind of “bad Hungarian” or thrown in my face that I was not born here! NEVER in any… Read more »
spectator
Guest

@Stevan Harnad
While I completely agree with your assessment regarding the trolls vs anti-trolls being about the same (quality) – particularly since being one of them – I have a rather disturbing question, the kind of “what if”: without these qualified as such – are we/you supposed to have purely theoretical and/or philosophical conversations here, and nothing else should have taken place?

Sounds good – in theory – but the unfortunate nature of life dictates otherwise.
Simply put: in my opinion life provides much more diversity what would fit into these frames.
Ten again, I may have my standards set far too low, since I rather will go in any level of conversation as long as the topic worth it.
Oh, well…
If I may summaries it, I rather have a livid conversation, whatever the level is, I think, that’s the way we may get somewhere.
– Or nowhere at all, as things tend to, right now, but still…

spectator
Guest

@wolfi – no, you don’t really want the text translated, trust me. No civilised person will, it’s only to Fidesz/Jobbik supporters, not for Human consumption.

spectator
Guest

Well, to the Stevan Harnad post I managed to let the spell checker take over: Ten-Then, summaries – summarise, just to name some. Sorry, at any event!

Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10)
Guest

A great broadcast on German public radio entitled roughly: ‘Energy Transition in Hungary: How a Country Squanders Chances’. (Thx to @dieNagashi).

http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/energiewende-auf-ungarisch-wie-ein-land-seine-chancen.922.de.html?dram:article_id=299520

One hour of serious criticism of the ‘big boys’ energy politics of OV (nukes and gas, Russia and Azerbaijan), the demagoguery (who will pay for the utility cuts & the sacking of Foreign operators?) and the systematic disinterest for renewables in a country that could do a lot.

If I’m to judge by the comments below the last two articles of the Spectrum regarding Hungarian-German relations, some Fidesniks see Germany as their understanding pal and somehow protector. Oh my, are they wrong… 🙂

wpDiscuz