Viktor Orbán is accused of being an agent for Kádár’s security network

Hungary is buzzing with the news that broke around 6:00 p.m. Viktor Orbán may have been in the service of the Hungarian equivalent of Stasi, reporting on his friends and acquaintances to the feared ministry of interior. The man who revealed his long-kept secret was Lajos Simicska, whose not always legitimate commercial activities allowed Orbán to become the strong man of Hungary and who, over the course of the past year, fell out with the prime minister.

Mandiner got the scoop. The online paper had sent an sms to Simicska, asking him for a lengthier interview. Today the telephone rang. It was Simicska, saying that he was ready to give a shorter telephone interview right now and that he might be available for an in-depth interview sometime in the future.

He began the interview with his family’s story. Despite his working class background, he was considered to be the son of an enemy of the people. His father was active in one of the workers’ councils that mushroomed during the revolution and for some months afterwards. Simicska’s father was ruined, financially as well as physically, and therefore the whole family harbored a deep hatred of the regime. Lajos Simicska even refused to become a pioneer.

Although he was by all accounts a brilliant student, he was accepted to university only the third time around. Thus, although he was older than Orbán, they ended up in the same class at ELTE’s law school. But before they began their studies the two young men from Székesfehérvár had to serve a year in the army. There Simicska was called in by one of the top officers on the base, who had a heart-to-heart with the young man, who was by then 22 years old. On the officer’s desk was a thick folder full of reports about Simicska, going back to high school. The authorities seemed to know everything about him. Even what he said on a camping trip. The officer warned him to watch himself because his university studies might be in jeopardy.

Sample document from the Historical Archives of the State Security Office

Sample document from the Historical Archives of the State Security Office

Simicska knew some of the people who reported on him, while “there was one who came and told me himself: ‘Look, Lajos, this is the situation. I have to report on you.’ I told that person that I hold no rancor and I’m glad you told me. We will figure out together what to write. I guess you can figure out whom I’m taking about.” Yes, he was talking about Viktor Orbán.

When all the university-bound recruits were discharged from the army, they waited in the cafeteria, already in civilian clothes, for trains to take them home. Orbán was pulled out from the group. The young men headed for Székesfehérvár actually boarded the train and Orbán was still nowhere. Once they arrived home, they decided to have a party. Orbán unexpectedly showed up and, when Simicska asked him where he had been, Orbán told him that “they wanted him to sign an agreement to report but that he said no.” Simicska said that he didn’t doubt Orbán’s veracity for thirty years. When the reporter asked whether he still believes him, Simicska’s answer was “By now, I don’t know what to think.”

It is noteworthy that the thick folder Simicska saw on the officer’s desk, as well as subsequent reports on Simicska, seem to have disappeared from the archives of the ministry of interior. When Simicska asked for the reports written about him, he was told there were none. I should mention that in 1998 Viktor Orbán put his friend, László Kövér, into a relatively unimportant position in his government. He became minister without portfolio in charge of the secret services, past and present, and thus had access to the archives of the internal spy network. He served in this capacity for only two years, until 2000, when he became the chairman of Fidesz. Some people suspected that Kövér’s duties included cleansing the files of the archives of the domestic spy network of any material that might implicate members of the Fidesz leadership.

Simicska thinks that although many files are missing in Budapest, all the files are available in Moscow. I don’t know why Simicska is so confident that everything recorded in Hungary was automatically sent to Moscow. But, based on this assumption, Simicska believes that Vladimir Putin is fully aware of Viktor Orbán’s secret agent activities and that the Russian president thus has a powerful weapon at his disposal. As Simicska put it, “if these documents exist [in Moscow], they would surely upset the apple cart at home.” It was Orbán’s turn to Russia that made Simicska suspicious.

Mandiner naturally asked the prime minister’s office for a response. The office released a letter written by Viktor Orbán in 2012 to Ágnes Vadai, who asked about his possible involvement with the Kádár era’s secret service. In it, he denied any connection and released a number of documents, from which we learn that it was actually he and his wife who were the objects of scrutiny of the communist government. Of the many documents only one, from August 1987, has any relevance to his possible involvement with the secret service. In it there is a single sentence about his 1982 encounter with the secret service. But this sentence doesn’t refer to the meeting between an officer of the secret service and Viktor Orbán that he told Simicska about. It simply says that “the III/III-2 Department of the Ministry of Interior studied Dr. Orbán in 1982 with the object of signing him on, but they decided against it.” I might add that the attached documents are not facsimile copies of the original typed reports.

Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
tinshed (@tinshed)
Guest
I would be interested to hear from those more attuned to contemporary Hungarian thinking just how potentially damaging this scandal, if true, will be to Orbán. There have a number of cases where prominent people have been revealed as informers. Novelist Péter Esterházy and film director István Szabó are two noticeable examples. And even Göncz Árpád was widely rumored to have acted as an informer. It is unclear to me how much damage these revelations did to the careers and reputations of such figures. My suspicion is that many Hungarians cooperated to varying degrees with the Kádár regime and most did so out of expediency rather than ideological fervor. Just how many figures among the current establishment did collaborate with the Communist regime will probably never be known. Hungarians have never faced up to their past in an open and frank way. Clearly there have been systematic program to expunge much of this activity so I assume people are still very sensitive to what they, or their colleagues, did in the past. I also suspect that a number of some of the most vocal opponents of the former regime do not entirely have a clean past. As noted in the… Read more »
banyaipeter2014
Guest

A big confusion about Novelist Péter Esterházy. He was never informer. His father was, he discovered it, around 12 years ago, and wrote about this an excellent, and painful novel

tinshed (@tinshed)
Guest

Apologies. My mistake.

Thomas
Guest

Orban being an informant is damaging for two reasons, regardless if he provided useful or fake information.
1. His followers are so hung up on ant-communism they cannot swallow if their hero leader was involved. Of course, it is possible that they would never believe it, even if it was proved beyond reasonable doubt.
2. This second reason is more damaging. If indeed there is proof somewhere, Orban can be blackmailed. That is scary
Another note though, Simicska’s revelation shows the true characters of these political hoodlums, they would sell their mothers if needed. Not even Mafiosos would do this!

Member

Aniko Levai, Orban’s wife, was under scrutiny? That’s funny considering his father was a communist informant too. Big time. Was daddy reporting on the whole family? Nice …

We should take this with a pinch of salt, since the information is from the kuruc.info, but they seem to have pretty authentic documentation to prove it: https://kuruc.info/r/2/139965/

Member

Two OTs, but interesting:

A rather defensive editorial from Hungary Today rebutting (rather too shrilly) Éva’s suggestion that HT is not an unbiassed source: http://hungarytoday.hu/cikk/statement-hungary-today-47573

And here is an interview (in Hungarian) of Andras Gollner about the Montreal Rpundtable on Rule of law in Hungary — interesting despite the tendentious questions of the interviewer, one Zoltan Maros. The questions smell as if they were transmitted to him by the Hungarian Ambassador, Mr. Odor… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moz5CnXsL4Q&feature=youtu.be

Member

Hungary Today is under the direction of Friends of Hungary.
According to HVG:
The Hungarian Friends of Hungary (as there is another Friends of Hungary by the government just to confuse things) is inisiated by the New Society Salon (who’s founders Peter Harrach – KDNP and Zsolt Semjen [do I need to say more?] that purpose is to stand up to the interest of the country, and the current government with a so called [I have no idea how to translate “köz”]diplomatic tools.

A magyarországi Friends of Hungary a kormánypártokhoz közel álló Új Társadalom Szalon kezdeményezése (ennek alapító elnökei Harrach Péter KDNP-frakcióvezető és Semjén Zsolt), amely az úgynevezett közdiplomácia eszközével igyekszik fellépni az ország, illetve a jelenlegi kormány érdekében.
http://hvg.hu/itthon/20130710_Friends_of_Hungary_fellegi_kuratorium

Now, knowing how stadiums are being built from “donations” and by not using grants…. I can just imagine, how Hungary Today is independent from any government money. You should just take a look on the modest get together they throw to Orban, Adler, Martonyi….
http://friendsofhungary.hu/rendezvenyek/

tinshed (@tinshed)
Guest

I looked at who are the Trustees of the Friends of Hungary. One is Eugene Megyesy, Jr. who is described as a Senior Advisor to the Prime Minister of Hungary. A second Trustee is Mariann Vízkelety, currently Vice President of the Hungarian Central Statistical Office, but who has also held roles in the Prime Minister’s Office and was formerly State Secretary at the Ministry of National Development. A further Trustee is János Martonyi, former Minister of Foreign Affair under Orbán. There are two other Trustees who do not appear to have held political office under Orbán. That does not mean of course that the Friends of Hungary receive government funding. But please, do not treat us idiots. We understand how it works in modern-day Hungary. How on God’s green earth can you claim to be independent when one of your Trustees is a Senior advisor to the current Prime Minister? Sheesh. 50 years ago Friends of Hungary would have been called a “front” organisation. How times change….

Member
This is not he same organization. Be careful! That is exactly the point. There are two organizations running under the same name, although the one “officially” belonging to Lazar changed its name, and now it is called, The Hungary Initiatives Foundation. Still the one that manages Hungary Today was started by Harrach Péter KDNP and Semjén Zsolt, even though on their information page either person is listed. THe confusion is out there, and maybe out there for a reason. So asking Eva to clarify things from the mess they created for themselves is very ambitious request. It should be them who should come clean. Is Hungarian Today the news venture of Friends of Hungary or the Friends of Hungary that changed its name to Friends Hungary Initiatives Foundation? If they are the one did not change its name, why Harrach and Semjen not listed? CAn they be truly non-biased as they claim when their ties to the current government is clearly established? They say they live off of donations. Where is the donation coming from? Unfortunately it has been established many times how Hungarian organizations are involved with “money-laudering” or filtering money through many different channels so it is very… Read more »
Member

Thermonuclear Implosion

The funding for Marosi’s “Kanadai Magyar TV” is worth investigating too. My guess is that Maros is being provisioned by Fidesz as part of its Canadian Charm Offensive, targeting both Hungarian expats and naive Canadians to help “shape” their image of Orbanistan…

I’d like to register another hunch: Things are actually going much, much worse for Orban than his worst ill-wishers have even dared to hope. He and his cronies are all inveterate crooks — and crooks get away with it only as long as they get away with it. But meanwhile the crooked edifice on which they are all stacked is preparing to crumble in all directions — as it must, since it is all just a populist pyramid scheme founded on mendaciousness and malfeasance.

When it inevitably does implode, the implosion will be thermonuclear, and all that will be left of Orbanism is a Black Hole. Let’s hope Hungary is still there After the Fall, and finally sets a positive course, contrary to long habit…

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

“According to HVG” – And whose direction are HVG, Magyarnarancs, 168 Ora, Nepszabadsag etc. ? The freedom of press?? – you gotta be kidding us

nimh2
Guest

It doesn’t take a whole lot of reading HT stories to see how biased they are. It’s blatantly obvious.

googly
Guest

I agree, there is a bias, towards democracy, truth, and serving the Hungarian people. If that seems like a bias against the government to you, that just shows how effective the propaganda has been.

This blog is a place where you can get an alternative viewpoint, not a place that is trying to be as even-handed as possible. If you read all the government-controlled media, you will get an even more biased viewpoint, but all pro-government, blatantly so. This is also the case with “Hungary Today”, which is the whole point.

Read both sides of the issues that interest you, then make up your mind. Of course, this blog does not enrich the author and does not benefit anyone specifically, only the cause of democracy in Hungary in general. Meanwhile, the pro-government websites are full of conflicts of interest and unearned profits (mostly from taxpayer money). If that’s what you prefer from your media, don’t bother coming over to this blog at all, stay in your bubble.

Member

Such is life! The kids are not involved – at least hopefully! Father in law was also an agent – what to do now? “Another reason to elect him next time”

petofi
Guest

‘Orban spying for Hungarian…’

A tale:

There was a man who lived in a small town. On a Sunday night he got stinking drunk at his friend’s house and headed home at 5am. Halfway down the town’s main street, he suddenly heard a quake in his stomach–he had to go, Now! So he dropped his pants and did it right there. He was tremendously relieved until he saw that he had crapped before the town house. What to do? It was soon sunlight. He was too weaving drunk to clear up the mess. He got an idea: he went to his nearby friend’s house, Lajos, who had a couple of horses and he walked them back to the spot. On cue, they shit all over his pile.
“Phew!” he thought, “they’ll never tell what’s mine and what’s not!”

Member
It is my firm belief, that copies of most of the documents generated by the Hungarian Secret Service, (and the Government) the Armed Forces, the Police and the Communist Party were received and sent to the Russian Secret Service Hungarian Branch. Their representatives worked side by side and in superior position to the Hungarian officers in charge. This was common knowledge already, decades ago, but it was also related to me since, by people who worked in such positions. The revelations are not surprising to me and many people I am sure. Again, those, who oppose the viktor will believe it without proof, those who worship the MINI-Mussolini will not believe it, even if the proof would be put in front of them. This is one of the reasons, that I believe that the MSZP is being paid and blackmailed by the Fidesz to be the party of quiet, useless bunch of paper pushers, working hard to be unsuccessful at the elections. The Fidesz have the proof, they know which one of them were agents and what are their crimes before and after 1989. Hungarian politicians are all the same, common criminals, informers, some of them with connection to the… Read more »
Webber
Guest

It isn’t just your firm belief – copies of all files from Comintern countries were, as a matter of routine, sent to Moscow.
Several years ago, when former PM Medgyessy was outed as a former secret police informer, an officer from the old security services gave an interview on Hungarian television. When a reporter asked him whether it was possible that Medgyessy’s spying was patriotic, as Medgyessy claimed, he had an interesting answer. He talked about how a normal working day went at his headquarters and mentioned that at the end of every working day the Russian KGB man would enter his office and ask whether he had anything interesting, at which he would hand the KGB man a carbon copy of every document he had received that day.
This was standard practice. There were Russian “colleagues” throughout the system.
All files were and presumably still are in Russia.

tinshed (@tinshed)
Guest

@gybognarjr
The revelations are not surprising to me and many people I am sure.

Again, those, who oppose the viktor will believe it without proof, those who worship the MINI-Mussolini will not believe it, even if the proof would be put in front of them.

This is exactly right I think. Are people that surprised Orbán may have been/probably was an informer? Probably not. Even if your view of the truth or otherwise of this matter depends entirely on your overall view of Orbán, even the most ardent FIDESZ supporter deep down can imagine this might be true.

Of course it is rank hypocrisy of the highest order for Orbán to claim some sort of legitimacy in breaking from a past regime and system that he himself may have aided and abetted, however slightly, by being an informer. He stands condemned for that if nothing else.

Member

I know one thing. When I went to ask for the files on me agh the Central office (close to Octogon), they found nothing. THis was contrary to what I experienced in 1983, 84 when I had to attend the District 7 Party Office and sign some documents regarding a memo about my activities. Where did that file go of exa,poe, but there were a few other instances too, when I know for a fact files were prepared,as they told me in person that I will not be able to further my education in Hungary based on my files!

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

A real cesspit. Lajos Simicska was the good friend of an III/III informer and kept many years the secret. At least as long as he could profit from his friendship with the head of the [mafia] family.
Both reek of insincerity, with hypocrisy dripping from every syllable.

Webber
Guest

Sure, Simicska is a scoundrel, but Simicska’s narrative is, at least, coherent – Orban’s isn’t. Simicska claims he was shocked when he was told by Orban that he had decided to ally Hungary with Russia, and that this was (for Simicska) the final straw, and he told Orban he wasn’t willing to assist with that. Now Simicska says he’s been thinking about what he has always known about Orban, and wonders whether Orban is being blackmailed by Putin (Putin to O: “I won’t say what I know about you if you help me – and incidentally, here’s how to embezzle even more money.” – threat of punishment and promise of reward).
All that makes sense. Everyone has his/her limits and personal morality. Even thieves.
Orban’s narrative changes from week to week. Simicska’s is seamless and consistent.

Max
Guest

Urban legend here in Budapest has it that the file on OV is being kept by Péter Boross, former interior minister of the Antall Government. He apparently blackmailed the dear leader in 1998 in order to become his chief national security advisor.

Kardos
Guest
Note that Simicska didn’t request his file from the official archives. There exists a special national archive for secret police files — though comprising only a fraction of all internal security documents (e.g. only directorate III/III documents and not even all of those). In the interviews Simicska denied that he went to this archive, that he officially requested the documents which might exist about him. He somehow suspected that his file wouldn’t be there. Simicska himself (as is usual for oligarchs around the world) is known to employ people from the security establishment (many from the pre-1990 era) and what he said means that he tried to use his personal connections at the various agencies to obtain his file and despite these connections he could find nothing. Let’s not forget that there exist some 19 magnetic tapes which contain all relevant data of all the pre-1990 secret services, all branches. None of the tapes were made public in any way (even the establishment of the existence of the tapes was the end of a long research project pushed by Gyurcsány) and it is suspected that Orban’s name is on many of these tapes (containing not just lists of agents, list… Read more »
István
Guest

A good essay on the creation of the information exchange between Hungarian secret police and KGB can be found at https://nsarchive.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bul-nkvd-aj.pdf pages 87 to 99. It was written by Magdolna Baráth.

Even inside of the United States Army we experienced the effects of Soviet and Hungarian intelligence cooperation in the infamous Szabo-Conrad spy ring, that lasted for several decades. Former U.S. Army Sergeant First Class Zoltan Szabo was secretly also a colonel in the Hungarian Military Intelligence Service who recruited servicemen and paid for intelligence documents which eventually were passed on to the KGB.

Many American Hungarian army personnel were scrutinized because of the Szabo-Conrad spy operation for a period of time in the 1980s because of this case.

Webber
Guest

With Hungary in NATO, would you say that Hungarian government’s failure to open the secret police files and reveal old agents posed a potential security threat to the United States?

buddy
Guest

How interesting. Whatever happened to Szabo?

narodnik
Guest

The weird thing about the archives is that Russia undoubtedly has the list of all Hungarian agents who operated before 1990 (many of those agents, informants etc. continued after 1990 of course in one capacity or another).

So this means that Hungary by keeping the lists and their reports from the public is effectively keeping such information from its allies, but is absolutely OK living with the fact that a country that treats both the EU and NATO as mortal enemies and which uses its energy-related influence for political gains within Hungary possessing all such information.

Why would Hungary want to maintain this Russian advantage?

István
Guest

Webber and narodnik those are scary thoughts and I have never contemplated them really. It is believed based on media reports that Col Szabo became a double agent for the CIA, because he was given such a light sentence. It is possible that the CIA and other western intelligence services were given access to the archives as some type of secret condition to admission to NATO.

To be honest that is what I assumed and I also assumed that Hungarian military personnel trained in the USA had been vetted by our intelligence services for their past histories. But such information would be highly secret and subject to our Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 so more than I really do not know.

Nádas
Guest

Sadly, there are thousands of stories of these “téglák” – informers who, after being caught in some youthful indiscretion, were often coerced by carrot-and-stick into informing (“besúgni”) on those around them, and were then “built into” their surroundings. Many of them eventually found the courage to tell their friends of their unfortunate past, many surely have not. If this is in fact a true story about Orbán, I wonder how the authorities got him to cooperate.

Tokagawana
Guest

The problem with these informants is that the secret service handlers used them after 1990. The personal relationships, the strange psychology between informant and handler remained alive even if most of the informants stopped filing those written reports. From time to time the ‘former’ handlers emerged with a request for a little favor.

The UD Zrt. tapes provide a perfect example. The pro-Fidesz private security operator/ (ex)-secret service handler mentioned casually on the tape that he knew the SZDSZ politician (at that time working for the MSZP/SZDSZ government) who was informing the handler in 2009 about some private business matter from the “old days”, they kept the contacts all through these years. Why wouldn’t have they? They are pals with several decades of mutual history.

So the problem with Orban is not only that the Russians can blackmail him and a bunch of other top fidesz and KDNP people, but also that these politicians probably were often acting in the interest of the services (or of personal interests communicated via the old relationships) instead of the nation.

spectator
Guest

Two additive question to the above:

What do you think, why he keeping mostly the same bunch of people around him in power time and again, after so many years?
What do you think, just how came that sometimes people appears practically out of nowhere, and somehow suddenly they’re sitting in positions without any viable publicly available explanation, besides “Viktor wanted this way”?

Yes, indeed! There are no coincidences in this business, you know.

lacika
Guest

László Kövér (aka the “conscience of Fidesz”) thinks that 30 years just aren’t enough for keeping the Paks 2 documents secret.

http://munchausenparokaja.tumblr.com/post/113162562686/az-m1-napirend-elott-cimu-musorabol-megtudhattam

petofi
Guest

Laszlo Kover….THE GREAT HUNGARIAN DEMOCRAT, AND PARLIAMENTARIAN.

(De Tocqueville be damned: Hungarians ALWAYS know better!)

Hajra Hungaricoes–the remnants of pre-medieval Europe.

Member

Of course not, He does not want to go to jail with his buddies at the age of 80.

trackback

[…] Simicska, este cel care l-a acuzat intr-un interviu telefonic pentru ziarul Mandiner, citat de Hungarian Spectrum, ca ar fi colaborat cu Securitatea maghiara, in timpul fostului lider comunist Janos Kadar. Citeste […]

trackback

[…] Simicska, este cel care l-a acuzat intr-un interviu telefonic pentru ziarul Mandiner, citat de Hungarian Spectrum, ca ar fi colaborat cu Securitatea maghiara, in timpul fostului lider comunist Janos Kadar. Lajos […]

Guest

A bit OT re “Friends of Hungary” or whatever they call themselves and Hungary Today aka their clone of RT – I already posted this on pol.hu:

When you look at their homepage – two examples, really funny:

“The international press had become less biased in connection with Hungary in 2014 …”

“US chargé d’affaires André Goodfriend, who had caused the government many unpleasant moments by heavily exceeding his role …”
That was enough – for me at least …

petofi
Guest

@wolfi

“That was enough…”

Certainly was.
But one can only sit bemused at the temerity of Hungarian Ignorance which weighs in on everything; and yet, knows nothing. A Hungarian specialty, you might say.

petofi
Guest

I had a dream the other night: extra-terrestials had come to take a splendid human example back to their planet. He was exhibited in their zoo. The sign read:

‘Extremus, Humanus, Ignoramus–Hungaricus’

trackback

[…] Simicska, este cel care l-a acuzat intr-un interviu telefonic pentru ziarul Mandiner, citat de Hungarian Spectrum, ca ar fi colaborat cu Securitatea maghiara, in timpul fostului lider comunist Janos Kadar. citeste […]

Member

Peter Konok’s FB status:

(Orban and his wife Aniko Levai at home)

“Look, Viktor what have I found! It was stashed in an old box!”
“What is it, Aniko? It seems like an old document …”
“You haven’t told me that long time ago you had even greater public support!”
“What do you mean?”
“Well … where is the date on this? In 1981 the full nation was behind you.
Here is an officially stamped proof of it: Orban Viktor III/III …”

tappanch
Guest

Well, it is telling that the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party thinks that Fidesz is a fellow traveler.

Friendly visit of the delegation of the Chinese Central Committee at Fidesz think tank “Századvég” on March 5:

http://szazadveg.hu/foundation/kulkapcsolatok/kinai-delegacio-a-szazadvegnel

tappanch
Guest

“They discussed how to fight corruption and how to promote the Rechtstaat in their countries”. Seriously !!

spectator
Guest

In light of these allegations quite a few thing seem to have explanation regarding the often quite odd behaviour of the Dear Leader.
Couldn’t have been easy to be Viktor Orbán, that’s for sure, and the telltale signs are quite clear, his personality took a heavy toll.

Something for sure, though, such story not ever ended happily.
If it was only personal!

Member

OT:
News 1. “Hungary offers 400 scholarships to Jordanian university students in various levels of study every year, according to Ambassador Csaba Czibere.

The envoy said during a visit to The Jordan Times that Jordan is considered one of the highest recipients of university scholarships as other countries get around 100 scholarships of a total of 3,000 offered annually.

This reflects the excellent Jordanian-Hungarian ties, which Czibere said he hopes to enhance in various fields during his tour of duty that started earlier this year.”
http://jordantimes.com/hungary-offers-400-scholarships-annually-to-jordanian-students—-diplomat

News 2. ” Hungary’s ruling party has launched a communications offensive targeting migrants and asylum seekers which it lumps together as “livelihood immigrants”. A plenary debate in Parliament on 20 February was called “Hungary does not need livelihood immigrants” and both Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and Antal Rogán, parliamentary group leader of the ruling FIDESZ party, have been quoted in local media saying that immigration must be stopped.”
http://www.irinnews.org/report/101212/hungary-reacts-to-migrant-influx

Same Hungary, same government, same time.

spectator
Guest

“livelihood immigrants”

???
And what other kind is there, if I may ask?
As far as I know every single immigrant migrating for some advantage over their country of origin – in hope for a better living, a more prosperous future, the more advancement possibilities, you name it, but it is all about livelihood, no doubt. Even if love or/and marriage involved, the choice of settlement certainly based on the above mentioned advantages.

And then there are the refugees – the asylum seekers – who had to leave their homeland in order to save their lives and/or freedom.

And there is no other kind!

What a load of bollocks again, Viktor!

(Thank you Some1 for reminding me!)

jgallic
Guest

Hungarians are not only a “nation of slaves” (A. Kertesz) but also a nation of haters and traitors as evidenced from the 18th Century and became a basic national characteristic in the 20th Century.

Webber
Guest

That is a bigoted, and disgusting thing to say about any nation.
If you were to make a negative blanket comment of this sort about Americans, or Croats, or Romanians, or Serbs, or Roma, or any other group, I would say the same thing.

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

Any positive news EVER about the current Government on this page?! If I didn’t know that most of the posts here are based on BS, I would think that Mr. Orban and his party are the true Evil

Webber
Guest

Go to Hungarian government websites if you want government propaganda. This ain’t the “országimázs” program. If you don’t like it, don’t visit this site.

petofi
Guest

@Dr. Kotasz

No, YOU are the true EVIL, for not knowing the difference between RIGHT and WRONG; and hence responding on pure emotion of HUNGARIAN PRIDE.
It is people like you who can’t understand the havoc that Orban is causing within the country, and instead swallow the bullshit of HUNGARIAN EXCEPTIONALISM, that are the anchor holding Orban in place. Orban feeds THAT (“exceptionalism”) to simps like you five times a day, along with liberal doses of your favorite desert–anti-semitism.

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

Petofi – That’s pure BS. Orban has made an effort to rebuilt the confidence in Hungarians that the last 25 years took from the people and the so called Hungarian pride should be critical in leaving the past behind and restart as a nation. Surely Orban has all the leadership skills that a real political leader requires however who he couldn’t cope with are those who dont give a damn about patriotism or national pride.
.
“Hungarian exceptionalism” maybe a BS to you and shame on you for that, but again it is the basis of a rise of a nation.

Carry on reading magyarnarancs 444.hu and other nonsense publications and you will learn how to hate Hungary and her people.

googly
Guest
Dr. Kotasz, You seem to like the concept of “Hungarian exceptionalism”, and think it is a positive thing for our country. Are you unaware of what damage such thinking can do to Hungary and others around Hungary? The same kind of thinking is currently being displayed by Russians in and around Russia, causing unnecessary war, suffering, and economic damage. Russians as a group are going to be worse off economically for a long time because of it, and Ukrainians are going to be lucky to keep their independence (some won’t be able to keep it). The Russian version of your preferred brand of nationalism has also caused many other wars in the region, and continues to hurt many others economically. It caused ethnic cleansing in Georgia and Ukraine, and continues to threaten Estonia and Latvia. It keeps the people in Transnistria living in a frozen society that hasn’t progressed from tyrannical communism, and it threatens to engulf all of Europe in a destructive war (possibly other parts of the world, too). I’m sure you’re familiar with Serbian exceptionalism, which is still causing trouble in Kovoso, but if not, please read about the ethnic wars in the 1990’s in the former… Read more »
Fogell
Guest

Magyarnarancs has a point.

It would be very easy for Orban to issue a short unequivocal denial stating that he did not report on anybody.

But Orban hasn’t denied anything.

A case of the dog that didn’t bark, I guess.

http://magyarnarancs.hu/villamnarancs/miert-nem-tagadja-orban-viktor-hogy-ugynok-volt-94065

petofi
Guest

@Dr. Kotasz

What can possibly be ‘positive’ in Orban’s Hungary these days? Pray, tell us.
Is it positive that tenders are accepted by government agencies depending on the connection to Orban?
Is it positive that the citizenry is kept from knowing the details of Paks which will commit billions of euros, for at least 30 years?
Is it positive that the Foreign Ministry dismisses 200 professional, long-established bureaucrats in one day without reason?

What other ‘democracy’ runs government in such a fashion?

Please teach us, Dr. Kotasz, about the great positives which lay hidden in the bosom of this country, and that we poor mortals are not aware of.

spectator
Guest

“What can possibly be ‘positive’ in Orban’s Hungary these days?”

Some HIV tests..?

Scrapped the hypodermic needle exchange programs quite a numerous places, so it ‘safe’ to assume the ‘positive’ results…

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

petofi – there are lots of positives happening in Hungary. It very much looks like that Mr. Orban leads his Government on the value bases of the previous post communist Governments, literally all from 1994. It is all the very same. He is putting his people into important positions, tenders won by ones within his group and he is using public media to share the messages his Government wants to be shared with the Public. This is excatly what Mr. Horn, Mr. Medgyessy and on the top of that Mr. Gyurcsany and Mr. Bajnai did.

Man, I am not gonna teach you, it is only up to you to clearly whats happening in Hungary without being biased.

One thing is for sure. Sending out all the negative messages about the Orban regime to the world has not helped and will not help rebuilding our country from the ruins of whats left after 6 years under the leadership of Mr. Gyurcsany and his successor Mr. Banjai.

Member
Dr. Kotasz, History taught as many important lessons, not at last the lessons on not repeating previous mistakes. If you are correct in your observation of the previous governments doing wrong, does that in your personal opinion authorizes any government to follow do the same? If your neighbour keep steeling your bike from your front yard and ends up in jail (or not), are you OK with your new neighbour doing the same? I agree, there must be something the Orban government does right, something we Hungarians should be proud of. I would love to read your examples. I think Hungarians do something right, and yes we do share that here on this blog, but his blog mainly a political blog, and now even the art in Hungary is not free from politics. Take the National Theatre for example and the outing of Robert Alfoldi, an artist who is welcomed to direct various plays all around the world, who made full houses at the National Theatre only to be ousted by the Orban Government and replaced by an other artist. I am proud of Alfoldi, and his art, I am proud of many Hungarian filmmakers too, and while it can… Read more »
Dr. Kotasz
Guest
Some1 – i understand your arguments and my answer no, it is NOT acceptable in any ways if Orban follows the ancestor’s political culture. I don’t like it, I am not happy with it, I am deeply disappointed in this. But. Did you stand out and shout when Gyurcsany and Bajnai did the same? Did you stand out and shout when NapTV took over the news service at MTV when Mr. Medgyessy stepped up? Did you post to the world the outrageous corruption cases that happened during the Gyurcsany regime? Did you tell your foreirn friends about the country’s foreign dept that jumped from 50% to well above 80% within 6 years? Did you say anything when Mr. Gyurcsany sent his secret intelligence troops on thousands of people demonstrating on 23 Oct, 2006? Did you? I have been trying to avoid being purblind about what Fidesz did in the last 5 years. I did support them in 2010 and I gave them my vote last year as well, However, I am ready to listen to any real alternatives should Hungary have one. Not no alternatives as yet Just returning to my initial point, I believe that posting only negative messages… Read more »
buddy
Guest

Actually it does more damage to Hungary’s reputation abroad when Hungarians do NOT speak out against what is happening here!

Foreigners think poorly of Hungarians when they see that we put up with letting this government rob the country and steal our democratic rights. Protesting and speaking out against injustices protects this country’s reputation.

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

Thats another BS, buddy. Many of those foreigners are shocked how badly Hungarians can talk about their own country. This is very unique of us Hungarians.

Hungary’s economy was just about to collapse in 2010 with over 10% unemployment rate. People lost their faith in everything that the so called democracy brought to the country since 1990.

Now, it could be an interesting discussing whether Orban managed to changed this at all or made it worse, but disagreeing with the fact that Hungary was not ruined in 2010 and didnt need rebuilding is foolish.

Webber
Guest

Dr. Kotasz: I am a “foreigner.” No foreigners I know is “shocked by how badly Hungarians can talk about their own country,” as you put it. You are hallucinating.
What is shocking to me and most of my “foreign” friends is how defensive many Hungarians are, and how unwilling they are to criticize their own government in public and how often r-wing Hungarians even lie to defend the current government. This, to us, seems deeply undemocratic (criticism of government is a hallmark of democracy). The bald-faced lying is particularly weird – and it is pervasive in my view on the Hun. right just now. In any Western country you care to visit you will find local people using the most colorful and unprintable phrases about their governments freely, joyfully, and without fear. That is a hallmark of democracy.

Member
It is a ‘bit different to go back, as the Internet (as we refer to this new media) was not so advanced yet. Interestingly I found Hungarian Spectrum before Fidesz won in 2010, and let me assure you, we (who were posting at the time) had critical posts. Now, I would have to look up how far we go back to prove my point, as Eva had to change the blog hosts a a couple of times. If you read into the blog further you would find that many do not cry back the good old days of Gyurcsany. It is unfortunate that the last three decades did not offer the political alternative that Hungary deserves, but instead of getting better, I feel it is getting worst. Here is the thing, and I wrote this before as a comment, I do not care who informed on who at the late Kadar era, even though I was the directly disadvantaged by the system. I think one way or a noter almost everyone in Hungary served or were part of the system. It was unavoidable. What bugs me is that here is Orban and his buddies, who did not suffer under the… Read more »
Dr. Kotasz
Guest

A lot of things do bother me buddy, but what actually really bothers me is Hungarians not being proud of their country and talking disparaging about Hungary. That bothers me the most. Don’t take it personally, I didn’t it was you buddy

And like I said before it does bother me when I only read negative comments about the current Government.

This blog seems to post ONLY negative comments which makes me leave the page which I am doing now.

Enjoy the pure negative environment, but sorry, I am not joining you.

Cheers

buddy
Guest

“And like I said before it does bother me when I only read negative comments about the current Government.”

Well then, go ahead and stick your head in the sand, like most people do.

I admire people who can honestly see the flaws in something and try to make it better.

Everybody on this site cares about Hungary, wants to see a better Hungary, and see the country improve. That’s why we engage in dialogue and face the reality about our country today instead of pretending that everything is all right.

If we didn’t care about this country, we wouldn’t spend so much time dealing with things we see as its problems.

One other thing: we are also able to love our country and at the same time find flaws with our government. The two are not the same, not at all.

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

Just to comment on Mr. Alfoldi, he was also chosen as a preferred director, by SZDSZ. He is probably a talended artist, although way overrated thanks to magyarnarancs and other liberal publications who support anything and anyone who befoul Hungarian patriotism and Christianity. Yet, removing him from the Nemzeti was a harsh action from the Government. I completely disagreed with their argument which said that Nemzeti should not represent minorities such as gay and lesbian communities (referring to the liberal style of Alfoldi’s directorship), but the majority who are male/female families.

Member

You are right about Alfoldi being chosen as the preferred director. I have to agree with that, but he proved himself. Whatever he does brought in the audience to the theatre. Now, what certain conservatives are saying that it is only good for the leftlibs. Well, the left libs apparently do fill theatres while the nationalists do not. THere is nothing wrong to play for any audience, but it is once to fill the theatre, and the audience of the current Nemzeti does not fill theatre. Orban justifies giving power to Vajnai with movies have to make money, but he does not apply the same rule for the theatre? Why not? Again, I think there is place for any theatre, but the size of the theatre is the problem. Or there is the Vigszinhaz (Comedy THeatre) that did an exceptional job under Eniko Eszenyi. Eszenyi is not really political, and you cannot accuse her to “befoul Hungarian patriotism and Christianity”. Why was it necessary to make her jump through hoops to keep her position when the alternative was extremely questionable. If not for the public outrage, she would be gone too.

buddy
Guest

What Orbán is doing is very, very different from what his predecessors have done. MSZP and SZDSZ had a two-thirds majority but they didn’t introduce a new constitution, take over the judiciary, tax everyone to death, purge the government state administration and ministries and install politically loyalist sycophants in their place, etc. All of that is happening now.

Also, Hungary was not “ruined” in 2010 and did not need “rebuilding” from Socialist rule. That’s just cheap government propaganda. Wake up and think for yourself.

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

MSZP didnt introduce new constitution as they didnt have supermajority to approve that, although Mr. Gyurcsany did express the need for a new constitution.

I did support the birth of a new National Constitution and I was shocked by the way how aggressively Fidesz did it all.

Member

Dr. Kotasz, It sounds to me that you are not thrilled with Fidesz either. We do post positive things about Hungary here, but I am not sure if you truly checked out other pages. Can you tell us something positive about what Fidesz did, and did well, you suggest should go on this Blog?

Member

One more thing. We are not anti-Hungarian. Many of anti-current government, but either Orban or Fidesz is the State, so do not mistake our anti-Fidesz words with ant-Hungarian. As Louis xiv said “L’état c’est Moi”, but that was Louis xiv, not Orban and not Fidesz.

Webber
Guest

Saying negative things about a government is not denigrating a nation or a people. This is where you are illogical. Not a single thing written by this blogger, Eva, denigrates Hungary or the Hungarians.
Have you ever watched Fox News? You can hear the most scandalous things about the Obama government. Nobody ever suggests that this is anti-American. When Republicans have the White House, leftists say things about them in public, to the international press, and in any language they happen to speak (English, Spanish, German, Navajo, you name it). That, also, is not anti-American.
The only difference I see in talking about their respective countries between Hungarians and Americans is that some Hungarians (many who support Orban) think it is treason to criticize the Hungarian government publicly in foreign languages. That seems insane to me – and also very dishonest. It’s a form of lying.
If you will recall, Fidesz criticized the Gyurcsany government and its policies in statements to the press in practically every foreign language possible. Fidesz asked for an international inquiry into police attacks in 2006. Nobody said that was treason.
Why do you suggest criticizing Fidesz now in English is treason?

Dr. Kotasz
Guest

Petofi – didn’t mean to return this post but just ran into an article that corresponds with what I was trying to explain re positive news. Here is one from Forbes:http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/06/the-best-countries-for-your-investment/

Explain this buddy.

tappanch
Guest

@ Mr Hangman [ = Dr Kotasz from Bacso’s movie “Tanu”]

The MSzP+SzDSz super majority between 1994 and 1998 was larger than the Fidesz+KDNP’s between 2010 and 2014.

But they did not abolish the Constitution like Fidesz did in 2011, effective January 1, 2012.

Orban and his accomplices should be removed from office for “Treason, Bribery” and “other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” [text of a genuine Constitution]

Webber
Guest
Just a rhetorical question – and I’m asking it of myself, too: Why are any of us talking to Dr. Kotasz about all the above when the issue at hand is the revelation the Prime Minister of Hungary, Viktor Orban, may well have been a communist informer? The continued existence of communist agents in the Hungarian government who may be blackmailed by Moscow is a matter of international concern, and poses a security threat to NATO, and thereby to the United States. Every citizen of a NATO country has every right to be concerned and informed about this. The collapse of brokerages in Hungary is also a matter of international concern, as it has effects on all investments in Hungary. And there is an odd connection between this and Moscow: one of those brokerages, Quaestor, was going to run the office giving visas to Russians – visas that would have given Russians access to all Schengen countries. So, this is a security concern as well. News here: http://index.hu/gazdasag/2015/03/11/quaestor-csod_tarsoly_csaba/ If people like Dr. Kotasz are upset by the attention and criticism Hungary is getting, I suggest they work to get Hungary out of NATO and out of the EU. If Hungary… Read more »
Member

” Viktor Orban, may well have been a communist informer?
The continued existence of communist agents in the Hungarian government who may be blackmailed by Moscow is a matter of international concern, and poses a security threat to NATO, and thereby to the United States. Every citizen of a NATO country has every right to be concerned and informed about this.” Webber

Now, that is a very good point!

wpDiscuz