Hungarian nationalism, Trianon, and the Day of National Cohesion

Lest we forget, we ought to talk about the 95th anniversary of the signing of the peace treaty between the victorious Entente powers and by then independent Hungary, which seems to be one of the pet projects of the Orbán government. On June 4, 1920, the territories that Hungary lost after World War I had long been in the possession of the successor states. In fact, certain areas that were to remain on the Hungarian side of the border were still under foreign occupation on that day.

Hungarians at the time and for some time afterwards simply didn’t understand what had happened to them and why. They never really grasped the fact that without the Habsburg Monarchy there could be no such thing as an independent Hungary with its historical borders intact. They had to choose, and in a way they did. The Habsburg Monarchy, with its multinational and multicultural population held together by a supranational monarch, could have developed into a kind of European Union on a smaller scale, but nationalism, especially Hungarian nationalism, worked against such an outcome.

Ever since the sixteenth century Hungarians had an ambivalent attitude towards the Habsburgs. In fact, almost four hundred years were spent in greater or smaller wars and uprisings against Vienna. There were times when Hungarian politicians, in their anti-Habsburg hatred, were even ready to side with the Turks to prevent the “liberation” of the country by the western forces. In this instance, using today’s political parlance, we would say that Hungary, instead of choosing the west, opted for the east. But can you imagine what would have happened to Hungary if the Turks with their corrupt administration had stayed in Hungary until the early nineteenth century? Compare the economic and social development of Hungary and Serbia at the outbreak of World War I and you will see the difference.

At the moment something similar is going on with Viktor Orbán’s war of independence against Brussels. In fact, a few years back he compared Vienna and Brussels when he mentioned an eighteenth-century Habsburg administrative office that was the symbol of Austrian oppression of Hungary at the time. Just as some Hungarian nationalists resisted any influence coming from Vienna and beyond, Viktor Orbán is doing the same by looking upon the liberal European Union as a kind of modern-day Habsburg Empire whose goal is to destroy the Hungarians and deprive them of their independence.

As soon as an arrangement was worked out between the moderate Hungarian political elite and the crown and Hungary received wide-ranging autonomy, an opposition party with varying names over time came into being that was against the 1867 arrangement and wanted total independence. These Hungarian nationalists did their best to create a “nation state” within the historical borders of the Kingdom of Hungary. The “nation state” did arrive after 1918, but not exactly in the way the country’s political leaders imagined it. The Habsburg Monarchy disappeared, and in its place small “nation states” with large ethnic minorities were created. Hungary, because of the very generous borders favoring the successor states, remained almost exclusively Hungarian. These countries remained weak and without the support of the great powers, and they fell prey to eventual Soviet and German aggression.

As Péter Techet, a young, talented right-of-center newspaperman and legal scholar, pointed out, the Hungarian political elite before 1918 when it stood against Vienna also opposed the liberal politics of the Austrian part of the Dual Monarchy. Once they were alone in their own country, they exhibited the ultra-conservative and on occasion far-right politics that stood in stark contrast to the multicultural and supranational policies of Vienna.

According to Techet, those people who today put Greater Hungary stickers on their cars are actually, although I assume unwittingly, for “the Habsburg Empire, its diversification, its European nature,” what Hungary was in those days. On the other hand, “those who defend Hungary’s sovereignty, who are against European unity, who incite against immigrants and against minorities within the borders, these people should be happy with their present homogeneous Hungarian nation state. So, they can celebrate the Trianon decision. Hungary became a small, insignificant, poor country of no account, but at least it is theirs,” claims Techet. It is a rather singular view, but not without merit. It is certainly thought provoking.

Surely, it would require a complete re-evaluation of Hungarian history for ordinary Hungarians to realize that total independence and territorial integrity were mutually incompatible and that it was thus in Hungary’s interest to cooperate with Vienna and with the other nationalities that made up the Monarchy. Instead, Hungarians, especially after 1945, removed practically all statues and street names that in any way reminded people of the four-hundred-year coexistence with Austria. As for textbooks, the benefits of the Dual Monarchy are scarcely mentioned.

The Hungarian nationalism that had been tempered somewhat since World War II is now being rekindled by Viktor Orbán, who knows full well what a potent force nationalism can be. C. A. Macartney, the conservative British historian of Hungary, said somewhere in one of his many writings on the Horthy regime that the Hungarian governments of the interwar period had to conduct an irredentist foreign policy because otherwise no Hungarian government could have survived given public sentiment. I disagree. The governments of the interwar period seized every opportunity to rouse public ire against Trianon. This attitude contributed to the Hungarian government’s eventual cooperation with Germany.

And this is not the worst of the many Trianon memorials. Can you imagine the rest?

And this is not the worst of the many Trianon memorials. Can you imagine the rest?

Something like that is going on today. Declaring June 4 a day of remembrance of the signing of the treaty has revived the kind of public outcry (however limited in scope) that was present only in the interwar period. By now there is a National Trianon Society in addition to several local chapters. An incredible number of horrendous Trianon memorials have been erected. One older one, The Statue of Hungarian Suffering by Emile Guillaume, a 1932 gift of Viscount Rothermere who was a zealous supporter of Hungarian revisionism, was restored during the first Orbán government and stands in Debrecen. It was here that the National Trianon Society held its memorial gathering on Thursday where the speaker, who happens to be a high school history teacher, claimed that textbooks don’t spend enough time on Trianon which was, after all, the greatest tragedy in the history of Hungary.

This Hungarian wallowing in the country’s past grievances obviously irritates some of the neighbors. Titus Corlățean, former Romanian foreign minister, suggested that perhaps June 4th should also be a Romanian holiday, when the Romanian flag would be displayed on public buildings. Public television and radio stations should broadcast informational material on the significance of the date. In the foreign minister’s opinion, “the rewriting of history and the repeated assertion of revisionist views in the European Union nowadays are unacceptable.” I agree, but the remedy is not to declare an anti-Trianon day of remembrance. One day, after Orbán is gone, a new government can decide what to do with it. Perhaps it can simply be forgotten. Just as the socialist-liberal governments forgot to renew the old Horthyist Corvin Chain revived by the Orbán government or refused to enforce the language law that regulated foreign words on store fronts and shop windows. As it is, public interest in the whole idea of the Day of National Cohesion converges on zero.

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exTor
Guest

Unless I’m too tired ahead of 1 AM in Budapest to properly understand, didn’t you contradict yourself in the paragraph above the photo, Éva?

You disagreed with historian CA Macartney, who stated the Horthy regime was forced into irredentism because of public sentiment, yet you then say that the postWW1 “governments [continuously attempted] to rouse public ire against Trianon.” Isn’t that irredentism in different words?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Webber
Guest

CA Macartney, whose history has never been bettered in any language, didn’t quite say that, or rather not quite in that way. He noted every Hungarian government was irredentist, and this irredentism was also driven by public sentiment. He didn’t doubt the sincerity of various Hungarian governments’ or politicians’ irredentism.

exTor
Guest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles

High praise indeed, Webber. I’m impressed by a lot of what I read from you. Going to have to keep an eye out for CA Macartney. Any books in particular you’d recommend? Dont necessarily have to be about Hungary. I like reading history, although these days mostly what I read are Wikipedia snippets. That old attention-deficit thingie directing traffic.

For those who may not already know, in addition to locking (to various degrees) certain articles against vandalism, Wikipedia rates its articles, some of which are university-paper caliber. The highest accolade merits a bronze star in the upper-right corner of the article. The link takes you to the list of all 4534 top-rated English-language Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia has almost five-million English-language articles currently.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Webber
Guest
The book I was referring to, and the one I assumed you meant, is C.A. Macartney’s October Fifteenth: A History of Modern Hungary, 1929-1945, 2 vols (Edinburgh, 1956). It was translated into Hungarian by a lousy ultra-r. publisher – Gede Testvérek, in 2006. I assume they did this without permission from the authors’ legal descendants or the publisher, though I might be wrong. Whatever the case, I’m told that the translation into Hungarian, however, is correct (don’t know – I’ve only read it in English). Just about everything Macartney wrote is worth reading. October Fifteenth is probably the most important of his books. It was based on meticulous research and cross-checking of sources, including personal interviews with surviving key players after WWII (including some creepy arrow-cross people). He didn’t take anyone’s word for granted, and meticulously noted when his sources disagreed on certain points. The book could not be written today, because all the eyewitnesses he interviewed have died. Incidentally, Macartney also interviewed Horthy after the war when he was being held to testify in the Nuremberg trials, and while the allies were determining whether to prosecute him at Nuremberg, or to send him back to Hungary for prosecution (as… Read more »
exTor
Guest

As for the work of ‘art’, it certainly looks like kitsch writ large. That said, I dont think that I’m going to cut the ‘artist’ any critical slack, like I did after 9/11, when a bunch of bad poetry spated various poetry sites, in addition to books. Poetry is thought to be a medium where personal feelings can more freely be exposed, so I retreated from my usual critical perspective, which didn’t make reading the stuff any easier, so I mostly didn’t bother.

AntiTrianon nostalgia/sentiment, even in ‘art’, must be criticized.

MAGYARKOZÓ

iii222
Guest

Hungarian conservative and liberal leaders have been competing in incompetence with their counterparts in the Ottoman and Arab world.

Who can save our nation from its leaders?

The Russian leaders are always ready to come to help, which is suicide for us.

Member

That stone panama hat. Excellent choice. It truly takes the cake.

If Hungary stayed the same in 1920, that is a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic country, these Orbanist nationalist pests would be nowhere. They need this little country to thrive.

spectator
Guest

Furthermore, the text on it a couple of lines from Petőfi, actually:

“Ha a föld isten kalapja,
Hazánk a bokréta rajta!”

(If the Earth is the hat of God,
Our (home)land’s the bouquet on that)
– or thereabout.

The whole poem is here: http://petofisandor.blogspot.de/2009/01/magyar-nemzet.html

Here we have the approximative rendition of the text, according to Petőfi – this is the first impression anyone could have, knowing the original.

However, there is another possibility, allowing to literally represent the poem:

http://pichost.me/2012893/

See, there is the true reason, why this molehill looks like as it does, in Maglód, Hungary, while the text just as ‘true’ as ever..!

Question
Guest

Hungary was not only multi-ethnic, but multi-civilizational as all Hungarian historian agree. There were the Western Christian (catholic-protestant) ethnic groups with western culture and habits, and there were people from the Orthodox civilization (or Eurasian civilization as professor S.Huntington cal them.) romanians serbs etc…

Guest

To me it even looks as if the bird (surely a Turul?) is cr*pping on that Panama hat – really crazy!

Re those “Greater Hungary” signs:
When they are mentioned I like to tell people that Hungarians were a minority in Greater Hungary in 1914 – and then sometimes you hear:
No, if you exclude Croatia, we were the majority!
But then why is Croatia included in those signs and what do the Croats think about it?

I’ve written about this before:
It gets even funnier when you see in Budapest an expensive big car (SUV or BMW, usually black with darkened windows) with Slovak licence plates and the Greater Hungary sign – so the owner is a proud Hungarian but at the same time doesn’t want to pay the higher Hungarian taxes …

PS:
Re the “liberal Austria”:
I’ve read that antisemitism was already ripe in Budapest before 1914 (Jewish academics had problems getting jobs at the universities) – was that a Hungarian problem or a KuK problem generally?

Question
Guest

You are wrong. Hungarian Jews played key role in Hungarian nationalist parties, like the party of ’48 and the conservative-liberal party of Tisza. Hungarian Jews seemed by the pre WW1 Hungarian nationalist as the most successful tools for Magyarization in Kingdom of Hungary. Hungarian Jews were expected as the “main stormtroopers” of magyarization in non-Hungarian parts of the Kingdom of Hungary.

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

Wolfi of course Jewish academics had the same problems in Austria before 1914.
Arthur Schnitzler: “Prof. Bernhardi”.
Gréczy of DK believes the left should also trianonize. Though this be madness, yet there is method in ‘t.
In Germany and Austria even mad extreme rightists do not talk about the peace of Versailles or St. Germain. In Hungary trianonizing became part of Mainstream discourse. It is really madness.

Guest

Thanks, Karl!
“In Germany and Austria even mad extreme rightists do not talk about the peace of Versailles or St. Germain.”
I wrote almost the same comment on politics.hu – most Germans probably wouldn’t know when it happened …
Does anyone know the reason for this “Hungarian madness”?
PS:
I’m so happy that my Hungarian wife also totally ignores these “Horthyisms” – we often laugh together when she shows me some crazyness on index.hu …

Member

Dear Wolfi madly!
The woman’s can be so like your wife. But what would you say, if a american wife would do the same? Be a mad women against its own people just because of fuck? Do you know the lost of Germany and that of Hungary? The Germans lost only about 10 % with Elssas-Lothringen, and after the second world war together 34 %. But Hungary 72 % nevertheless Hungary was a semi sovereign state under the Habsburg rule. And without the intervention of the US 1917, it would exists a normal historical state. And don’t forget the US has made a 10 times bigger Holocaust against the natív Indians as Germany. The US and the British killed about 60 million people in Nordamerika and is a 100% colonial state. You should develop selfcriticism befor you making your incompetency. The Americans as a 100% colonial state have no voice at all. I recommend you the song “INDIAN RESERVATION” from Don Fardon. If you are a human being.

Question
Guest

Because, the composite state of Austrian Empire did not lost real national territory (except the little south Tyrol) after the WW1, It lost only its modern-age colonies, and mostly the Habsburg lands which were grow by dynastic marriages.

Latefor
Guest

Do you remember the “12 × plates of sh*t” masterpiece at the Rock Castle Exhibition in Szeged a few years ago? If I remember correctly (Galamus blog), the artist was declared by a notable art critic as pure GENIUS! 🙂 The above artist likes to dream about greatness! At least nobody will accuse him of vulgarism.

seinean sabisan
Guest

“Titus Corlățean, the Romanian foreign minister”

Titus Corlățean is no longer Romanian foreign minister. He is now “just” a member of the higher chamber of the Romanian Parliament – he is a senator. Volt külügyminiszter .

Member
giorgio.magyaroni@gmail.com It’s need a proper answer not only to Éva S. BALOGH but to all of the supporters of the murdereus colonialism a la Anglo -Americans, French and Russians. I call them together “FrEnRUSa ” the monstrous Evil of the man kind. But I have to write my opinion in German than to translate it to English. OK? Now just so much, I know that the real existed colonialism is in power in the world and the only war winners but that’s mean not, that the colonialism is in wrigt. What is a lady like Éva So Balogh write is a purely MOBBING. A spread of hates and triumph of massaker of about 300 millions of indigen nations. At last also in Europe with the Hungarians. A lady like Balogh – p.s. I do not know her real name – can not feel with the victims and image, that the colonialism spread 1917 with the american intervention also trouh Europe, so as the 1. Worldwar were fought only to destroy the historic Hungary. With for new colonisation letting 72% of Hungary to be 8 times colonised from all kind of enemy nationallity like the Habsburg did since 18. century. That’s… Read more »
exTor
Guest

Unlike you and me, Éva Balogh is a real person with a bonafide name. When you translated from German (so you state) why did you not spellcheck your piece? Your ‘points’ are hard to follow. There is something bogus about this. Sorry. Or not !!!

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member

See, it’s sometimes hard to spot a troll! LOL

exTor
Guest

I’ve concluded that GM is a fake and that this was meant to ‘take the piss’ (to use a nifty Britishism) out of the Hungarian Spectrum group. My advice is NOT to respond to Giorgio Magyaroni, probably a wannabe record producer, NWS my previous post.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Andy B.
Guest

Not to respond??? because he/she dares to have a different opinion?

Webber
Guest

No, not because of a different opinion, but because he/she clearly doesn’t understand English enough to have a clue what this blog is about (and this discounts every critique s/he might make), moreover because s/he writes in such poor English that it is absolutely certain that s/he will not understand a response, and finally because, as a corollary, in certain parts of his/her spew it is impossible to understand what s/he is trying to say.
Now, if YOU want to say something in clear English, please do. I’m sure you’ll get a reaction of some sort, no matter what position you take.

Andy B.
Guest

I think GM’s comments are not as bad as you say they are. They are quite graspable.

LwiiH
Guest

Different opinion is one thing, falsification or complete ignorance of facts is another. I figured another posting on Trianon would draw out the crackpots and it seems it did. I really don’t get this fascination with something that happened almost 100 years ago, no one understands, can’t be changed anyways and really is an impediment to moving forward. People, very few gave a rats a$$ in WWI or WWII about Hungary. It was just along for the ride! Get over it, move on, it’s now the 21st century! It’s a different world.

The stickers and maps of the oversized Hungary are a great example of how to win friends and influence people. I don’t understand how these people can put them on their cars. I personally find them offensive and counter productive!

Andy B.
Guest

“happened almost 100 years ago, no one understands, can’t be changed anyways ”

I know what you mean. The average American or Western European is uneducated and ignorant about Hungary. Unfortunately, the situation was the same in earlier periods…. It doesn’t matter if it’s Bucharest or Budapest.

Guest

The average Western European (I’m a German btw …) doesn’t know much and doesn’t care for Trianon, Versailles,St Germain …
We lost two wars – wedon’t want another one for sure!
Most of my German compatriots would be surprised if one wanted to make a holiday out of that!

PS:
What does the average Hungarian know about, say Wisconsin or Tennessee?

spectator
Guest

Straight bourbon? Say Jack D…?
Will it qualify for Tennessee? 🙂

LwiiH
Guest

Better yet, what does the average Hungarian know about Trianon. I’d be just as much as they know about Tennessee or Wisconsin.

Question
Guest

Germany is not located in Western Europe.

exTor
Guest

The answer to Question: Germany most definitely is in western Europe geographically and Western Europe geopolitically.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Question
Guest

Wrong.Germany is Central Europe like Switzerland Hungary Czech R. Austria Slovakia Poland. See encyclopedia Britannica, see german Brockhaus Encyclopedia, La rousse french encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Americana, Columbia Encyclopedia, CIA Word Factbook,

exTor
Guest

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/europe_map.htm

There are differences of opinion as to what countries actually constitute western Europe geographically.

I found a decent map to which you can refer, Question.

My definition of western Europe flows from a line drawn from the top of the Adriatic Sea to the bottom of Norway. Countries (including Germany) to the left [west] of the line are part of western Europe.

In the linked map, all yellow-colored countries are in western Europe with the exception of Finland and (in my opinion, again) Austria.

I put Austria in central Europe (with Hungary and Finland). Eastern Europe contains mostly Russia and Caucasia.

I dont want to discuss the difference between western Europe, the geographic entity, and Western Europe, the geopolitical entity.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Question
Guest

Wrong, so-called unencyclopedic definition. Western Europe means: France, British Isles and the so-called Benelux states.

googly
Guest
Question, Ah, you really think you know everything, but actually are wrong about half the time! You wrote: ” Western Europe means: France, British Isles and the so-called Benelux states.” If you look at all the definitions, then you’ll see that more experts disagree with you than agree. At least you have the US CIA on your side. Germany was a founding member of the Western European Union (though not its predecessor, the Treaty of Brussels, which arguably was not a Union and not the same thing as the Western European Union). I don’t think they would have called it that if countries outside of Western Europe had been among the founding members. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union Most of modern Germany was part of the Carolingian Empire, which also included France, the Netherlands and Belgium. During the Cold War, West Germany was almost universally considered to be part of “Western Europe” (as opposed to “Eastern Europe”), and Central Europe was not a viable concept (since it was split between the two ideological camps). This era is probably where exTor gathered his definition from. The United Nations Statistics Division considers Germany to be in Western Europe. http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm Your absolutist approach towards definitions and truth… Read more »
Guest
Re: ‘Where are the historical boundaries of the USA or Russia?’ Hehe funny you should mentioned that GM. The US has fifty states but they’re not hunting for more. 50 so far is nice and maybe one may come in later but it’s right nearby and no invasion has to happen. And speaking of ‘invasions’, I’d be curious if ‘Seward’s icebox’ might be a nice prize for Vlad since he’s kind of always looking at his options now when it comes to real estate. You can never tell what that guy is really up to..;-).. On the other hand what can we say of Vlad’s land? The guy’s on the hunt taking back the Crimea and having ‘little green men’ travelling without passports and uninvited mind you and raising mayhem in Eastern Ukraine to the detriment of the country. I’m not sure the Baltics may get Russian visitors but it’s probably being discussed…just in case. Now this discusses territory but at bottom we are really talking about the exporting of Russian ‘nationalism’. So instead of haranguing everybody on that defunct and abject ‘ism’ they dumped they’ve now found that it works to get into another different export business. That’s the… Read more »
Member
One short notice more; I am more than surely, that lady Eva S. Balogh is a paid american troll! Her duty is with political mobbing to destroy honest worry of some Hungarians who are seeing the genocid and ethnocid on the Hungarian people. How much I can understand the English language, she is intelligent and it seems sophisticated so, as her articles have a logical sence. But because she is not shaming herself, it is more than obviously, she is writing her mobbing for money. In contrary, I am only partially hungarian but in the feeling to belong to that kind of a elit like it was a Zrínyi Miklós ore croatian Nikola Zrinjski, who died exactly bevor 301 year. He was a soldier and poet and was most probably killed by the Habsburg. He was looking on that time for saving the Hungarian nation from the Turkish kolonist invaders. Who were at that time decimating the Hungarians ab to only about 10 % of the population of ca. at that time of about 4,5 millions. At that time the British had also no much more. Only France hat about 18 million people. As the Turkish were drawn out after… Read more »
Guest

Giorgio, I think kuruc is the better place for you …

Member

You dear Wolfi are a ignorant, like a zombie. Without heart and soul. I recommend you the song “INDIAN RESERVATION” from Don Fardon. And take care if you by drinking, maybe unther your feet could be the bons of the indigen Indians. Their Holocaust is not yet forgotten.
The “Kuruc” word is a Habsburg construction and means robery, in reality the Wort is Turkish. But it means “the not satisfied” international “Malcontents”.
So please get more selfcriticism if you to be a human being. The Hungarian history is full of sadness and you should not make it ridiculous.

Member

O.K. Mr. Wolfi!

buddy
Guest

“that lady Eva S. Balogh is a paid american troll!”

Reading this reminds me of an apt saying in English that’s used when there’s a foul stink in the air: “The one who smelt it dealt it!”

Andy B.
Guest

The slow genocide of Hungarians is obvious. At the eve of the 21th century the number of Hungarians in the Carpathian Basin should have been about 14-15 million (4-5 million Hungarians in Hungary’s neighbours).

Guest

“should have been” – why?
It’s more a question of them emigrating to better countries …

Andy B.
Guest

If you calculate with average Hungarian (and not Slovak or Romanian) fertility rates and other demographic variables the number will be about 14-15 million.

buddy
Guest

Who is committing genocide against Hungarians in your opinion? And do you have any concrete and specific proof of this?

exTor
Guest

Slow genocide of Hungarians, Andy B? In that case, why dont you whisper in Viktor Orbán’s ear to hurry up and allow more immigrants into Hungary. Surely some of them will want to stay in the paradise that VO plans here.

Or does VO’s version of paradise [paradizsa (saját kitalált szavam)] look like Jobbik’s: no Jews, no Roma, no anybody darker than white?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Andy B.
Guest

I have never said that I agree with Orban’s stance on immigration. Hungary should show solidarity with immigrants. However, the “human rights champion” America is far more worse than Hungary. Where does Eva live?

fi3
Guest

It would be good to delete all Magyaroni nonsense.

exTor
Guest

You speak German, wolfi, maybe you might want to get inside GM’s head, although that might open you up to frustrating back-and-forths. Just a thought. This guy’s all over the map. He probably doesn’t know what he really wants. His half-formed English is an impediment to effective communication. A man with a little knowledge is a danger to himself and to others. Who knows what he really knows.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

Don’t get any ideas! No, I don’t want to talk to someone who starts (and maybe ends…) his “career” here with a remark on our hostess like this:
“Eva S. Balogh is a paid american troll!”
PS:
As I wrote before, kuruc or Hungarianambience would be his rightful place …

PPS:
It’s awfully hot outside here near the Balaton – 32 Celsius (90 Fahrenheit), that’s why I went inside for a time ..

Member

GM, I can’t make any sense out of this Google translater output you are copy-pasting here, but you you sure look like a hard core Trianon monger. So tell me what do you want? What is the “justice” you are after?

One more thing. Leave us alone, please! We don’t care about Trianon. This is the 21th century Europe.

Sackhoes Contributor
Guest

Giorgio Magyaroni – you are very funny. Totally crazy, like out of the looney bin, but funny. Don’t forget to take your medication!

Member

Yes Sackhoes Contributor I’m the crazy bull, but what are you? A zomby? Can’t you image that you have in reality no voice as descent of the killers of about 60 million natív Indians? Indian’s, who would today create a 500 Indian states in America! The Holocaust the indigen Indians are not yet forgotten and if you and many other colonialist from the US are always on the side of natural born killers, don’t wonder if you are getting rremembered on yours Holocaust too. So use more selfcriticism and lett Hungary in freedom. I am at liest a honest man and not descent of natural born colonialist killers. That’s mean with a voice for freedom and humanity. Are you able to understand that? No, you can’t?

googly
Guest
Giorgio Magyaroni, Even though you are probably some kind of pranskter, you do give me an opportunity to point out a common fallacy among trolls, and not just the ones employed by the Hungarian government. Whenever trolls question the right of a US citizen or anyone outside of Hungary to criticise the Hungarian government on its human rights record, they cite historical crimes by long-ago governments of that person’s nation to show that Hungary is actually morally superior to that nation. In this case, oddly, the troll seems to think that Eva is really an American-born troll posing as a Hungarian immigrant. Aside from the easily provable fact that Eva is not descended from citizens of the US, even if she were, there would be no proof that she was descended from those who committed what would be considered crimes today. Since the US and Canada (not to mention Mexico and many other nations of the Americas) are immigrant nations, many people there can trace their entire ancestry to immigrants who arrived long after the last of the genocidal wars ended. How can they be held responsible for something that none of their ancestors partcipated in (or even be held… Read more »
Question
Guest

Hungary had no colonies. Learn basic Hungarian history.

Lol
Guest

Are u for real??Ofcourse they had colonies but,they decided to call all of them Hungary…Transilvania(majority romanians) that was a colonie,part of Slovakia(Slovakians majority) thats another one..and I can continue..

Question
Guest
There were no Romanian majority in Transylvania until the 18th century. In the reality, the late-nomadic Vlachs (romanians) migrated from Bulgaria and South-Eastern Serbia to the present-day territory of Romania in the 13th century. The nationalistic daco-romanian continuity myth (which is the compulsory curriculum for children in romania) is not generally accepted by western academic scholars. That’s why all major Western Encyclopedias (E.Encarta, E. Britannica, E.Americana, German Brockhaus, French Larousse etc…) mention the romanian state-supported daco-romanian myth, but they are also mention the reality: the Vlach migration from the Balkans in the 13th century. Vlachs (medieval romanians) were the latest people who introduced the literacy in Europe, and they were one of the latest shepherd nomadic people in Europe. (There were no orthodox bishopry in medieval Vallachia & Moldavia, even most of the monks and priests had to be „imported” from Serbia). Due to the lack of literacy and own history writting (medieval chronicles) until the 16th century, the poor romanians had to built up a so-called “speculative history-writting” (or fabricated history), where speculations based on earlier speculations and fictions etc.. There are no material proofs (cemetries cultic places) which can support the romanian (vlach) existence in present-day territory of… Read more »
googly
Guest

Question,

Nobody here cares, stop dumping this garbage here, especially since it’s irrelevant and you are not the first troll to waste our time with this. In fact, I think I recognise some of what you wrote as verbatim what other trolls have written. Don’t you guys bother to at least pretend that you don’t have your instructions sent to you by the Jobbik director of propaganda?

Okay, if there was any doubt before, it’s quite clear now that Question is a Jobbik troll. I don’t understand why they obsess so much over the Romanians, but the reality is that whenever they came, they have been the majority in those lands for long enough to have a claim to them, and were not treated as equals by the local ethnic Hungarians.

I do support autonomy for all areas of Romania with a majority of Hungarians, but I don’t agree with the current government’s approach to achieving that goal.

Question
Guest

There were no Slovak majority in modern Slovakia even in 1920.The Germans and Hungarians consisted 50% of the population of Slovakia.

Historical fact: After the Ottoman genocides in Hungary, Hungary was depopulation. The territory of modern-day Hungary was filled up Hungarian immigrants from the territory of modern Slovakia, which population-vacuum was created for slovak population in Northern Hungary, where the Slovak ethnic territory started a rapid growth.

Slovak is one of the youngest ethnonym in Europe, the slovak term was born only in the early modern era. Slovaks were early modern mixture of immigrants: Czech hussites in the west, Polish immigrants from the north, Local Hungarians, German settlers and rusyn people in the east.

googly
Guest

Ottoman genocide in Hungary? A wild claim like that should have some links. Also, your claim that Slovaks didn’t have a majority there in 1920. I’m not buying it without some proof.

I also disagree with your characterisation of Slovak origins. I’ve read in more than one place that the Slovak people, whether they were called that or not, were in place before the Hungarians arrived. Of course there was genetic mixing, but we’re talking about the culture here, otherwise there are virtually no Hungarians left in Hungary.

All of this is irrelevant, since it’s well established that Hungarians were not in the majority in Slovakia in 1920, and quite a few of those who identified as Hungarian in Slovakia had ancestors who had been Magyarised.

googly
Guest

Was northern Croatia part of Hungary? What percentage of the population was Hungarian? Did that percentage increase after Hungary took control?

googly
Guest

Question,

So then Hungarians were the original inhabitants of the Carpathian basin, and nobody was living here when they arrived? Face it, the original Magyar tribes colonised Hungary just as certainly as the Spanish, English, Dutch, French, and Germans colonised North America. Or is that history too basic for you?

Member

Trollers of the colonial world, unifie against the indigen hungarian reservation of historical still 28 % in Europa. Because you have not killed enough of the Hungarians, the Indians, the Aborigins, the Sibirians, the Arabs, and many others too. Since 1918 is even the historic Hungary on the colonial line. Till your natural born killers are destroying each other. In a armageddon of the world.

So, I hopp all of you, so much be able to understand my issue even with my bad English. Because you could not have any logical arguments nevertheless of any kind languages, even in Hotentot. Because you are even as colonial winners of all wars, never in right. The human feeling and humanity will for ever be against you, so also against you Éva S. Balogh newertheless, who are you in person, nationality and religion.

spectator
Guest

Darling, you may bother to look up the definitions of “human” and “humanity”, before you dig yourself deeper in that craphole what you managed to manoeuvre into yourself.

People who advocating death penalty and the expelling of asylum seekers has nothing to do with either of those – so, come again, please, and tell me more about Humanity, I’m eager to hear it!

Andy B.
Guest

“who advocating death penalty and the expelling of asylum seekers”

Are you talking about the US politicians? hehe

spectator
Guest
Well, if you came to the conclusion that I do talk about the US, you shouldn’t really read the rest. 🙂 Otherwise my moral standards are absolutely independent of the national- and/or political aspects, I just as well like/dislike one as the other, in spite of the color of their flag. In this respect I just as well loath the US politicians as the Russians or Hungarians, be assured of that. Unfortunately, however, the politicians who excel in those fields what I’ve mentioned above somehow tend to gather on the same/similar political side too, the side what I have precious little in common, particularly morally and ideologically, but as a consequence it came down to personal level as well. After all, you can’t really separate the man from his/her acts, can you? Even if it sometimes nothing more but playacting, it worth the same to me. Been born and raised in different times, when moral, honor and honesty had some value. Don’t worry, though, my kind will die out sooner and later, and the rubber-spined turncoats going to be the “moral standard”. Pretty soon nobody will complain anymore, if the Prime Minister spinning like a weather cock, as the wind… Read more »
Member

Macaroni, your are out of your mind. You are comparing the punishment of a country after a lost, bloody world war to, say, to the fate of the people in Belgian Congo?

You may not understand what I will write, but I started to get convinced that the entente powers did the right thing when they clipped the wings of our loony nationalistic bunch in 1920. I think the treaty of Trianon may not have been such a bad idea. Without it we may not enjoy today the benefits of a united peaceful Europe. Thank you GM!

Lol
Guest

U cant really call hungarians indigenous in Europe...U probably dont know the definition of indigenous…

exTor
Guest

Not that simple, Éva.

I can see Lol’s point. If an indigenous Hungarian is defined as belonging to one of the many Magyar tribes that lived somewhere around [beyond] the Urals more than 2000 years ago (as has been posited), then it is true that Hungarians [read: original Magyars] are NOT indigenous to Europe.

The reality is that Hungarians, as are most Europeans, are a mix. I am one, with Slovak, German and Hungarian in my genes. Accordingly, Hungarians ARE definitely indigenous to Europe. They have lived in central Europe for longer than a millennium. Cant get more indigenous than that.

Outlook depends on one’s takeoff point.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Question
Guest
Extor, Learn population genetics instead of fairly tales. As professor Czeizel stated: Hungarian population have especially genetic make-up, forexample, most slavic people contain higher ratio of Eastern (in old term Mongoloid) haplogroup markers )like Q and N1c1 than Hungarians. Hungarians have the same ammount (half percent) of asian markers as aboriginal English people, which is very low. Even germanic speaking populations (especially. Scandinavians and Northern Germans) contains hiugher ratio of asian markers than Hungarians. Balkanic people have high ratio of African E1B1 and middle-eastern J markers. the largest genetic database and CHART of European nations: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml Map about the genetic distance of European nations The autosomal DNA TEST of European nations (genetic distance between European populations): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#Autosomal_genetic_distances_.28Fst.29_based_on_SNPs_.282009.29 About the Finno-Ugric and IE language groups. Just some Hard-facts: Finno-Ugric language group was born in N-Eastern Europe, until the roots of ancient IE language groups go back to Asian continent. In the Eurasian supercontinent, there are more native speakers of IE languages in the ASIAN continent than in Europen continent. (Just remember the large IE speaking populations of India Pakistan Iran) However, the 97% of Finno-ugric speaking people live in Europe. Therefore to call finno-ugric languages as “asian languages” is laughable illogical,… Read more »
Question
Guest

Second: Finnougric languages developed in the Baltic region and URal mountains. The proto-Hungarians came from western or Souhtern URAL, while the tribes of Celtic Greek Latin Germanic and later Slavic people migrated from Asian coninent to Europe much later.

The higher elite of the Hungarians however were “foreigners” turkic people (Árpád’s people) with a great chance of Khazar origin.

googly
Guest

Question,

Sorry, your syntax is a little confusing – are you trying to say that the proto-Hungarians emerged before the Celts came to Europe?

Question
Guest

Yes, because Finnougric languages developed in Europe (Baltic region and URal), proto Hungarians lived in west and south bank of URAL, while Celts were originally Asian migrators like Greeks and Latin tribes.

googly
Guest

Ah, and you also are claiming that Hungarians are not Finno-Ugrics. You are truly a Jobbik loon, and I hope that Eva removes you from the site soon.

Guest

I was puzzled by the three bumps on the Trianon hat and the first thing which came to my mind was the song:
“Mein Hut der hat drei Ecken,
drei Ecken hat mein Hut,
und hat er nicht drei Ecken,
dann ist es nicht mein Hut.”
I realized soon that a Trianon monument is a serious matter and its design cannot possible be inspired by a children song even if there is a Hungarian version of it. It is more likely that the three bumps are the three hills in the Hungarian coat of arms. They symbolize the mountains Mátra, Tátra and Fátra two of which were expatriated by the Trianon treaty.
The pole on the top hill on the monument is a flagpole. In the Hungarian coat of arms it is the Lorraine cross. The Turul has not been incorporated into the Hungarian coat of arms yet.

Member

Jean P. could be profrech, but his good English suggest me, he is from Canada. A other 100% colonialist state. A state who is up to date opressing the rest of the natív Indians. Nevertheless earlier they exterminated this indigen nation and made the land of the Indians British ore French. So I am telling to Jean P. He should be even so more implement selfcriticism. Because in such a affair like the tremendous tragic of Hungary, Jean P. has no at all a voice. Because as descent of natural born colonialist killers of the Indians.

And also Jean P. should try to get more a human beings if he would hear the song “INDIAN RESERVATION” from Don Fardon. The destiny of Hungary and the Hungarians is very very similar to the destiny of the Indians. The Hungarians should always remember the colonial power’s and their many aggressions on the fact of the murdereus colonialism and their Holocaust on the natív Indians. Maybe it would help them to let Hungary in freedom.

Question
Guest

That is not Lorraine cross, since it has Byzantine origin, and the Hungarians adopted it earlier (under king Béla III) than the French.

LwiiH
Guest
exTor
Guest

Interesting that you banished Giorgio Magyaroni, whose name plays on Giorgio Moroder, the Italian record producer who came to prominence in the 1970s during the disco period. Loved that stuff.

Too bad the German Giorgio could not make music with his language, Éva.

Actually, earlier today I was going to suggest dropping him, not because he’s a troll, but because he’s almost incomprehensible. His one-track mind fixated on genocide. I’m not sure why people interacted with him. Because of that interaction I decided not to suggest booting him out.

Questions: Do you usual notify people that they are out? How many have been given the boot over the years? Do you keep track?

MAGYARKOZÓ

googly
Guest

exTor,

Actually, it’s clear to me that he was trying to push sales of the song he kept mentioning in his posts (he must have recently bought the rights to it). He is trying to raise its online profile so that more people will want to buy it on iTunes.

Member

I never understood what this guys want with this colonial injustice argument. Ok, let’s do justice to screwed people of the world. Magyaroni and his buddies have to agree, that the “justice” should be dispensed in the order of the level of attrocities commited to each group. So everybody should line up at World Juctice Court of Screwedness. Jews, representatives of the Congo, Mayans, Aztecs, Cherokee, aboriginals … Hungarians and the Klingons. They all take a ticket. (“I don’t care if you are Hungarian! You too take a freaking number!”) Then after 200 years, after we gave out the last of the chocolate truffles from France, all the single malts from the UK and no white wurst left in Germany and the Belgian beer barrels are empty, this weird little nation of one million around Budapest comes … and want’s … WHAAAT?? Half of Romania?? And justices would go: Hell NO! Next! Klingons! What do you want?

Aurelian Vermeer
Guest

If Germany and France buried the war hack, why can’t Hungary(Germany) and Romania(France) do the same?
It has been 95 years from that moment, we are now together in EU. If any hungarian wants to live his life in Transilvania he is welcome. Hungarians have schools, radio, tv, press and manny more freedoms there…
Romania is a model at respecting minorities, that’s a fact !

Question
Guest

Hungary give many example of Humanist behavior for the World. The world’s firs religious freedom law, and enacted the world’s first ethnic minority rights in an era, when the minority rights were denied by every Western European powers.

Guest

That was a long time ago – now Orbán wants to reintroduce the death penalty among many other idiocies …
How humanist is that, dear troll?

googly
Guest

Isn’t it sad, then, how far in the other direction Hungary has gone?

Guest

Troll “Question won’t answer” …

I think this is the same creature that posted similar or even identical nonsense some time ago here (and on politics.hu too) under the name “Adam xxxx”.

In one sentence:
Hungarians are the greatest and the cleverest and invented everything before the others …

To which my grandmother would have replied:
Yes, if we didn’t have you and the large potatoes we’d have to eat the smaller ones …

Question
Guest

Wolfy, please read this, before you write anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Hungary

Question
Guest

Eva, I found a good history book. Even the war-torn and little Upper-Hungary (Royal Habsburg Hungary) was more important and richer economically than Austrian lands and Bohemian Kingdom combined in the 16 and 17th century. (Royal Hungary had higher royal inland-revenues) I suggest page 263:

https://books.google.com/books?id=rSON55zorLsC&pg=PA263&dq=Austria+Moh%C3%A1cs+revenues+%22kingdom+of+hungary%22+population&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IuhpVZ6AL8XQswG9iILADQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

exTor
Guest
You appeared to contradict yourself, Éva. Lol said that Hungarians are not indigenous to Europe, to which you replied with “nonsense”. Then you said that “Slavs are not indigenous to Europe either”, which backs up Lol. Then you stated that Slavs “spread westward until they reached central Europe”, which is exactly what the Magyars did. So, per your logic, Magyars are NOT indigenous to Europe, which was Lol’s point, which you dismissed. Cant have it both ways. Either both Magyars and Slavs ARE INDIGENOUS to Europe, which you outrightly accepted (by dismissing Lol’s point) or both Magyars and Slavs ARE NOT INDIGENOUS to Europe, which is Lol’s point. Lol used ‘Hungarians’ for ‘Magyars’. For resolution, this argument must define ‘Hungarian’, ‘Magyar’ and the meaning of ‘indigenous’. How does one define, conceive of ‘indigeneity’? I’m not sure how Lol was operating in a “degrading fashion”. Your point about the misuse of certain terms [eg: ‘colony’] is well-taken. There is a small population of individuals [eg: Question, Andy B] whom I would characterize as semitrolls. These semitrolls seem to glory in presenting corrections, as if occasional mistakes undermine the general validity of whatever is being said. These semitrolls seem to have a… Read more »
googly
Guest

Eva,

I just lost a lot of respect for you. I did some quick checking online before writing my posts on the topic, and I didn’t find anything to contradict what I said. If you claim you don’t have the energy to defend your incorrect definition of “colony”, then I wonder where else you have misled us.

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