A compulsory course on the Holocaust at the Hungarian Catholic University

While the world is preoccupied with Greece and Viktor Orbán’s preparations to erect a fence along the Hungarian border with Serbia, I decided to focus today on the debate over Péter Pázmány Catholic University’s decision to introduce a compulsory course on the Holocaust. Until now there was only one compulsory course, “Introduction to the Catholic Faith,” which I understand, to put it mildly, is not taken seriously by the students. According to someone who is most likely a student at PPKE, as the university is known, “it is a joke,” a course in which everybody cheats.

President Szabolcs Szuromi and Ilan Mor at the press conference

President Szabolcs Szuromi and Ilan Mor at the press conference

On May 26 Szabolcs Szuromi, the president of PPKE, in the presence of Ilan Mor, Israeli ambassador to Hungary, held a press conference, which was disrupted by two “journalists” from Alfahír and Kurucinfo. The former is the semi-official internet site of Jobbik. Kurucinfo, the virulent anti-Semitic media outlet, needs no introduction. Both men fired all sorts of provocative questions at the president and the ambassador.

The reaction of the far right didn’t surprise anyone. They especially objected to the presence and role of Ambassador Mor and to the fact that two Israeli historians, Dina Porat and Raphael Vago, had been asked to prepare the syllabus for the course. Jobbegyenes (Straight Right) accused the Hungarian government of taking orders from the Israeli ambassador when it agreed to the removal of a sign referring to “the victims of Gaza” behind the Hungarian entrant at the Eurovision competition. Moreover, according to the author, it is not PPKE’s job to teach students about the Holocaust. They should have learned that in high school.

Zsolt Bayer’s reaction was also expected. In his opinion, there is just too much talk about the Holocaust. Practically every day there is a new book, a movie, or a theater performance. A few years ago he “thought that one couldn’t sink lower” when he read in Népszabadság that grandchildren of German war criminals, with the financial help of the European Union, had arrived in Budapest asking for forgiveness from elderly survivors. In Bayer’s opinion it was a perverse idea. The souls of these youngsters are “infected with guilt.” What is going on at PPKE is also a perversion. In fact, Bayer thinks PPKE’s decision was even worse than the grandchildren’s apology.

But there were critical remarks on the left as well. The most serious criticism came from Sándor Révész. He objected to the compulsory nature of the course and predicted that “within seconds” someone will suggest “a compulsory course on Trianon, on the communist dictatorship, on religious persecution,” and so on and so forth. In fact, Gábor Vona and Dóra Duró of Jobbik already sent a letter to the president of PPKE asking for the introduction of a course on the tragedy of Trianon.

Révész also found PPKE’s decision to introduce such a course problematic because it is a well-known fact that the Catholic Church still venerates Ottokár Prohászka (1858-1927), bishop of Székesfehérvár, who was a rabid anti-Semite and the ideological precursor of Hungarism, the Hungarian version of Nazism. Révész called attention to the fact that the Hungarian Catholic Church published a collection of Prohászka’s most savage anti-Semitic writings titled My anti-Semitism in 1942. “Is PPKE ready to reevaluate the opus of Ottokár Prohászka in connection with the Holocaust?” asked Révész.

There is criticism coming from historians as well. László Karsai, a historian who has written extensively on the Holocaust, finds it strange that two Israeli scholars were invited to prepare the syllabus when there are many Hungarians qualified to do the job. Moreover, Karsai finds the syllabus as well as the readings wanting. Some books on the reading list are of inferior quality. If he had children at PPKE, he wouldn’t advise them to take the course–not that they would have a choice. He added, however, that “it is an interesting experiment that might generate some lively discussions.”

Péter György, professor at ELTE, just announced that they themselves have been thinking about creating three one-semester courses that all students of the Faculty of Arts would have to take: the cultural history of racism, social theory, and the philosophy of science.  In the course on the cultural history of racism students would also study about the Holocaust. The members of the faculty realize, I think, that something went very wrong at the university since a large portion of the Jobbik leadership graduated from ELTE with a degree in history. Although they don’t want to meddle in the worldview of students, they believe that they should be able to fend off blind prejudice and racism. György admitted that “radicalism” is a very serious problem at ELTE and “the university has no other antidote than arming the students with the necessary knowledge.” He was very pleased when he heard about PPKE’s decision and he, unlike Révész, trusts the faculty of the university to face the past honestly.

It was Elek Tokfalvi, one of my favorite publicists, who was truly enthusiastic about the course. In his opinion, what happened in Hungary was unique in the history of the Holocaust because the Hungarian Jewish community’s destruction began after all the others’ had already ended. Therefore, studying the Hungarian Holocaust is warranted. Tokfalvi looks upon PPKE’s decision to introduce a course on the Holocaust as a “moral redemption” after decades of the undisturbed spread of anti-liberalism, anti-capitalism, ethnic superiority. “Therefore, it deserves praise.” In his opinion, other universities should follow PPKE’s example.” Perhaps it would also be beneficial to teach basic values that would “counterbalance the anti-Semitism of university graduates.” The same idea that Péter György is advocating.

One thing is certain. It s not enough to introduce a course on the Holocaust. As long as people like the economist Katalin Botos give lectures like the one available in part on YouTube, no change in attitudes can be expected.

It might also be a good idea if György Fodor, dean of the Divinity School, and others would take a more critical look at Ottokár Prohászka and the Catholic Church’s attitudes past and present concerning anti-Semitism and racism because, for the most part, the church leaders did very little, or nothing.

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steve397
Guest

I will not judge if a Holocaust study is required in a Catholic University as I have no idea how little or much were the secondary students taught about this in their Hungarian history subjects, but like to make the point that whereas a lot of effort goes into discussing, teaching and mourning while remembering Trianon, a tragedy without any (or possibly minor) loss of life which happened 95 years ago and how the Holocaust which meant an enormous loss of life and happened 70 years ago and according to certain people should not be discussed any longer.

Guest

@steve397
June 19, 2015 at 8:42 pm

Jews were never regarded as “genuine” Hungarians, thus the Hungarian Holocaust is seen as primarily a Jewish issue that is of no real concern to “genuine” Hungarians.

On the contrary, in their heart of hearts most Hungarians are quite happy and relieved that they succeeded in getting rid of over half a million Jewish children, women, men and old people, and the only regret they might still harbor is that in the end they were unable to finish off all of their Jews, once and for all.

On the other hand, Trianon is regarded as a strictly Hungarian issue, a profound Hungarian tragedy caused primarily by “the Jews”, who then got their just deserts in the Holocaust for their crime of causing the dismemberment the homeland.

The reasoning is nutty as a fruitcake, but there you are.

Hence the differences of memorialising Trianon and the Hungarian Holocaust in contemporary Hungary.

traizigfritzig
Guest

You are totally wrong, my friend.

By the “Emancipation of Jews” in 1867, all Jewish Hungarians were officially accepted as genuine Hungarians of Hungarian Kingdom.

If you question that, then anybody’s citizenship – even the highest nobilities – can be questioned in Hungary.

So, there is no doubt, that the Horthy-regime deported 437 thousand genuine Hungarians to certain death. It was a crime against the Nation.

But on the other hand, Trianon was only a punisment for a shameful war crime, comitted by the Hungarian Kingdom, attacking and destroying our neighbour countries.

Half million Hungarian soldiers died and one and half million crippled in that meaningless war.

I can’t understand, when people crying about Trianon losses, but never mention the much bigger losses of the First World War.

And I can’t understand, when people crying about Trianon losses, but after then they erect 17m high statue for Istvan Tisza, who was personally responsible for entering the war and driving the country intoTrianon.

When prime minister Tisza decided to enter the war, he knew, what did he risking.

No honest man can talk about Trianon without admitting that Tisza was guilty in war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Guest
@traizigfritzig June 20, 2015 at 3:47 pm In saying that Jews were never regarded as “genuine” Hungarians, I was referring to the facts on the ground in the Hungarian street and Hungarian society, which were profoundly antisemitic even in the halcyon days of the Dual Monarchy, notwithstanding the official government position that as of the date of their emancipation, the at that time still mostly German and Yiddish speaking Jews living in Hungary suddenly became “genuine” Hungarians for all intents and purposes. Yes, in 1867 the liberal-inclined aristocratic political leadership of the Kingdom of Hungary did confer citizenship rights on Jews living in Hungary, partly to promote rapid modernization in feudal Hungary, but primarily in order to improve the unfavorable population statistics of those identifying themselves as Hungarians in the multi-ethnic Kingdom (and indeed, as an extension of 1867, in 1895 all three streams of Judaism in Hungary actually became recognized as received religions of the Kingdom, equal in status to the Catholics and Protestants). But all that happened in the teeth of violent opposition to Jewish Emancipation headed by the Catholic Church of Hungary and vigorously supported by very large segments of Hungarian society, the rise of an antisemitic… Read more »
Guest

@traizigfritzig
June 20, 2015 at 3:47 pm

Here is my working definition of a Hungarian that would be considered “genuine” by “genuine” Hungarians (“tősgyökeres” magyarok):

“Anybody can be (or can become) a “genuine” Hungarian, regardless of lineage, who considers himself or herself to be a “genuine” Hungarian, as long as he or she is not of Jewish or Roma lineage, or of a non-European race.”

There are not too many Hungarians today who can point to direct descent from one of the seven tribes of Hungarians who conquered the Carpathian basin a millennium ago.

Thus, apart from small numbers with jász, bessenyő or kún forebears, most “genuine” Hungarians today are made up largely of descendants of Danube Swabians and Saxons, Slovaks, Poles, Ukrainians, Romanians, Serbians, Croatians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, Armenians and others, most of whom would have first adopted a Hungarian identity in the course of the 19th century.

Though of course there might always be the odd, carefully concealed Jewish or Roma contribution here and there, that would have shamefully sullied the purity of a “genuine” Hungarian’s genealogy.

:-))

exTor
Guest

I can not comment on the respective validities of Mike Balint and traizigfritzig. Each has good points.

A couple of personal connection to each. My mother’s father was a POW for a while during WW1, which can be linked to István Tisza.

My father, who somehow managed to stay out of the fighting of WW2, used to say that there were more Jews in Hungary after the war than before. No idea where that came from, but that was the ‘reality’ I had to deal with.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

Tisza’s gigantic statue now adorns the empty Kossuth tér.

exTor
Guest

Sorry steve397, I dont quite get where you’re going with your post. Your flow of thought washed away. There was no channel.

It’s been decades since I attended university in Toronto. Back then there, and probably even now, certain academic streams (eg: engineering) had mandatory courses. The electives, however, were up to the student.

I have never heard of university-wide compulsory courses. I am opposed to the Holocaust proposal. One can not inoculate empathy by compulsion.

Those Jobbik scumbags, had they been made to take a course about the Holocaust, I doubt that they would have become better human material.

I am reminded of a WW2 incident. After the Americans had liberated a certain concentration camp, some local townfolk were rounded up and forced to witness what had happened right under their noses.

Most, as expected, were horrified learning what had occurred. One woman, however, said “But they’re Jews.”

MAGYARKOZÓ

Rev. Albert W. Kovacs - UCC
Guest
Rev. Albert W. Kovacs - UCC

The idea of a course on the “Holocaust 101” surely needs to be followed by “Oppression 102,” about other manifestations of inhumanity as slavery (e.g. Greece & Rome, America, Muslim world yesterday and today), subjugation of women, terrorism, religious extremism, freedom of expression, etc. It would seem “Never again!” finds relevance in the past and moreso in the present. – This would be a good prototype for colleges around the world. . . . P.S. Ms. Balogh, your prejudice against religion is showing, and also your antipathy for a government that is not socialist/communist/atheist, rather one building a humane nation based philosophically upon the highest values of its revered Judeo-Christian heritage and affirmed in its Fundamental Law.

exTor
Guest

Éva Balogh soft on commies and socialists? Hardly. Proatheist? I’ve never read anything that might suggest that. She is anticleric when it comes to those who dont do their God duties, which (amongst other things) means speaking for those experiencing hard times. Such as refugees.

Your afterthought crit of Éva does not fit, however I’ll wear the mantle with which you’re trying to drape her. I dont do God in any manner. I more than once pointed to my ex’s contradictory profession of belief and her pride in being antiRoma. She teaches in Budapest XX.

You’re too sensitive for your own good. I, on the other hand, feel that Éva doesn’t go far enough to knock religion when it comes up wrong.

People can go god (or God) if they want. Just do the other things that come with that territory.

MAGYARKOZÓ

steve397
Guest

What I am trying to compare, how 95 years after Trianon it is still a matter of official sorrow, yet 70 years after the Holocaust of Hungarian Jewry any mention of it is criticised. Mourning the loss of territory is part of the Hungarian soul, mourning my relations is BORING.

exTor
Guest

I understood most of what you said in your topic-leadoff piece, steve397. I had problems with it near the end.

Not everybody, not even native speakers of English, communicates effectively. One way to better communicate is to vary sentence length.

The biggest problem with your piece is that it is one long sentence. That is just so wrong for this type of forum. You knew what you wanted to say, however you did not channel your points properly. They wandered.

In addition to smart varying of sentence lengths, the intelligent use of commas is a major requisite for effective writing. Use commas smartly, but dont overuse them.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest
@exTor June 19, 2015 at 9:23 pm I think you hit the nail on the head with your sentence that “One can not inoculate empathy by compulsion.” Antisemitism is visceral in most non-Jewish Hungarians and as such, a very profound part of their deepest identity as Hungarians, and it is a complete waste of time and effort to try to convince them of the wrongheadedness of the antisemitic attitudes and beliefs they are so deeply inculcated with from the day they are born. Compulsory courses on the Hungarian Holocaust in high schools or universities? Whistling in the wind and tokenism, that is all they are – if not a lot worse, when not taken seriously and actively resented, because they are compulsory. Hungarians are at least three generations behind the Germans in coming to terms with their Holocaust role and responsibility. Introducing compulsory Holocaust studies in Hungarian schools and universities today is therefore like an attempt to introduce compulsory Holocaust studies would have been in West German high schools and universities around 1950. It would not have worked in West Germany then, and it is unlikely to work in Hungary today. Given the social, political and emotional retardation of contemporary… Read more »
Guest

@Mike Balint
June 20, 2015 at 4:08 am

On the other hand, you got to start somewhere, and a compulsory Holocaust course at a Catholic university is probably as good as anywhere.

And some of the seeds sown today might actually start sprouting in two or three generations’ time.

Even in the “magyar ugar” (the Hungarian wasteland). :-))

Vl Eu
Guest
What kind of “seeds” are you talking about? The best way NOT to resurrect old conflicts and resentments is not to to revive them anymore so people might forget and get away with old grudges. I am afraid that “never again”, that we ought to remember again and again and brag about the Jewish holocaust “else we risk to repeat it” is just alienating all generations: Europeans growing up with the sense of guilt and not being able to develop critical thinking and becoming incapable to defend from cultural genocide, if such danger arise; Jews and others growing their anger and desire for revenge. The insistence about their tragedy really raises serious concerns regarding their will to “forgive” how they put it. For when you forgive you also forget. There was cause and effect when the holocaust happened. People did not start from thin air to become “evil”. The situation now is not the same. The Jewish communities are not demographically endangering Europe anymore. The social pressure that resulted in the holocaust was caused by demographic unbalances across Europe. The social paralyze caused by guilt could have disastrous effects to Europe. If the Muslim communities would get preferential treatment based… Read more »
Webber
Guest

You wrote, above: “The Jewish communities are not demographically endangering Europe anymore. The social pressure that resulted in the holocaust was caused by demographic unbalances across Europe.”
I stopped reading right there. Says it all, doesn’t it? In your view, there were too many Jewish people, and they are in part to blame for their murder. I’ll give you one thing (only) – the expression in English of antisemitism that raw and open is unusual.

exTor
Guest

Vl Eu: Breathtaking display of intellectual incoherence.

When I saw Éva’s debar intent enunciated, I thought that there might have been a rush to judgement. After all, this is the first and only post by Vl Eu.

I had to reread the ‘thought’ blathered by Vl Eu to try to come to grips with that shite. This is victimblaming by that rasszista szarzsák.

That bug has been squelched.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

@steve397

Yes you are spot on. I can remember on my first visit to Hungary in 1997 and being surprised at how many maps there were on sale on ‘greater’ Hungary. Everyone I spoke with knew about Trianon and would endless repeat, “Nem, nem soha”, etc.

This was definitely not the case in regard to Hungary and its role in the Holocaust. Quite the reverse in fact. No one wanted to talk about that, other than to say that their family, of course, sheltered Jews during this time. Of course they did.

Likewise I can recall at the same time reading in Bob Dent’s Blue Guide book on Budapest that a memorial to Wallenberg located somewhere near Moszkva tér was placed so far away from where he performed his heroic deeds because of the “sensitivity” that existed at that time.

Like you I have no idea of the merits or otherwise of this course but surely the more Hungary exams this part of its past, the better.

Guest

@ steve397

I got your point after reading your first comment, and thank you for the interesting comparison. Yes, the difference what those two events left on the soul of our society is striking. Valuable observation. There was a very interesting conversation on these events by Friderikusz with Akos Szilagyi. Excellent watch http://www.atv.hu/videok/video-20150423-friderikusz-2015-04-22

Gabor Toka
Guest
Ilan Mor is an unusually active ambassador who keeps coming up with new ideas and initiatives. I quite like that even if I may not agree with everything he tries and I wish that other embassies were half as engaged in town as his is. It was a brilliant idea to have a joint initiative with the Catholic university on combating antisemitism, and this unlikely pair surely succeeded in making a lot of people do some perfectly welcome thinking and talking that they would not have done otherwise. I am not sure if it was the university or the embassy or both who got the – I think unfortunate – idea of a compulsory course but I guess one has to accept that they acted in good faith and, well, given how they are, that is what they could come up with and agree on. This is sad because university-wide compulsory courses automatically turn into a farce in Hungary. I for instance had to take “Honvédelmi Ismeretek” (Introduction to National Defense) in the 1980s and that meant that I – like most others – never attended a single class and my final test was written by someone else for me.… Read more »
darkness
Guest

And again Ilan Mor. The interest of Ilan Mor is to have the Hungarian vote in the UN, so Ilan Mor is not representing the Jewish community and its interests, he threw them under the bus several times. His main task is to have a great relationship with the Hungarian government. We saw him giving interview to Heti Valasz , just a week after the Vona interview, we saw him distributing Yad Vashem prizes in the Interior Ministry with Pinter, we saw him friending and loving Zoltan Balog at the Independence Day reception and now we saw him organizing Holocaust studies at Pazmany. The Hungarian government right now is orchastrating a world wide campaign to prove that they are not anti-Semites. We see klezmer 24/7 in NY , Ottawa and Washington. Ilan Mor is just helping Lazar and the Prime Minister’s office and conducting a worldwide PR campaign for them.
So do not forget he is a good ambassador of Israel but not an ambassador of the diaspora.
They use Israeli historians in order to avoid conflict with the history cleansing Hungarian government.

Karl E. Pfeifer
Guest
I have written in an articticle 8 years ago: …Usually anti-Semitism is coded. But the code is very simple. Here just one example of recent days. The right-wing daily Magyar Hirlap reported on October 10 on the the unveiling of a statue of Catholic Bishop Ottokár Prohászka (1858-1927): one of the leading ideologues of the “Christian course” in the years after the First World War. Prohászka advocated anti-Semitic discrimination, the so called numerus clausus restricting the number of Jews admitted to institutes of tertiary education to 6 percent of all matriculants. That was before the Holocaust the proportion of Jews in the population. The numerus clausus was the first rupture in the constitutional equality granted to Hungarian Jews in 1867. It is not a bit surprising that the vice-president of Hungarian parliament Sándor Lezsák (Fidesz) gave a speech, an apologetic review of the so called “Christian course”, of history and politics between the two world wars, when the “Christian-national” idea was official ideology. Lezsák was not disturbed by the fact, that one of the main pillars of this idea was political anti-Semitism and that the rulers of Hungary were the first ones in Europe in the 20th century to carry… Read more »
petofi
Guest

They were not onlookers: they were readying their bags for looting the jewish remains…

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Karl E Pfeifer said: “… the overwhelming majority of Hungarians were onlookers, when about a half a million Jews were deported DURING SIX WEEKS IN SPRING 1944 …” Just remember, tiny Hungary was virtually a vassal satellite state, which counted for so little that Hitler didn’t bother to take it over until the war was over – and probably just to finish off his insane slaughter of the Jews. … If you ask the Germans, they will tell you that they didn’t know about the trains and camps – wouldn’t admit it. People learned to say nothing, lest they be next! It was the same in the satellite nations under Russian control post-WW2 – nobody saw anything, as we read in The Gulag Archipelago. Nobody knew what went on in Andrassy U. 60, or its equivalent Communist torture chambers throughout Hungary, Romania, etc. No, say nothing! Ask no questions! … Why were so many Jews left in Hungary so late in WW2? Because the Horthy regime not only didn’t ship out its half million, but opened Hungary’s life saving doors to another half million fleeing certain death. And its people didn’t join in the capture of the Jews, except the… Read more »
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Karl E. Pfeifer: Yesterday cannot be judged by today, as hopefully we have grown into a higher standard – hopefully! … Pre-WW2 Hungary was an entirely different picture from what it is today. For example, the relations are cordial between the Roman Catholic and the Reformed Church, not only in Hungary but Romania as well. So too their relationship with the Jews, who participated in some of our churches’ world meeting events. … BUT, it was not always so, especially in pre-WW2 Hungary and for centuries before. Then the Roman Catholic Church ruled, not only in Hungary but its neighbors like Slovakia, and the others like Reformed and Lutheran were barely tolerated. I saw many Reformed churches which were forbidden on the main square or streets and barely visible. The entrance in Sarospatak is on a small alley. In Tokay the RC church is on the main street, and the Reformed hardly visible up a narrow side street. … That’s what it was like in the 1930’s – and “toleration” means one is not liked but allowed to exist if you don’t make waves. … I’m sure that after centuries of being called Christ-killers and squeezed into European ghettos that… Read more »
Member

Horthy may have staved off some terror, in Budapest, but because of his own anti-semitism and that of the nation, he did not resist Hitler, he simply “avoided” things for as long as he could. If the people were not turned so harshly against the Jews after the first world war, Hungarians would likely not have been so anti-semitic that they would have participated in what they did. There were many yes, who risked their lives to save Jews, but there were many, many Hungarians that also turned them in. To this day, because of the anti-semitic people of Hungary, I believe we will have another genocide. When the punishment comes down on Hungarians and racists worldwide, I hope will be enough for everyone to say ENOUGH, NEVER AGAIN!!! And mean it! Europe in general and the world is revealing the racism once more and it sickens me to see it increasing because of appologists like you that excuse the actions of Horthy, who make excuses for the hatred and who support governments like Hungary who have every desire to repeat what happened.

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church

LIZ AUCOIN – You and others totally miss the reality of Horthy’s options. Could he face up to Hitler’s Panzers with his pea shooters, Honved with outmoded weapons even as they came out of the factories and untrained militia (Trianon forbade an army), bordered by Austria and Czechoslovakia who had already caved in and were governed by wimps, and left to fend for themselves by the ilk of Chamberlain. He and Hungary were alone, trying to survive when larger nations fell prey, and still harboring a million Jews. Answer, somebody, my earlier question – Who did more?
Even half as much? Who even tried??? – Horthy and Hungary – give them due credit. And now, challenge the Hungarians of today to live up to this heritage, rather than damn the children who themselves are not to blame. Your last statement is absurd about “governments LIKE HUNGARY who have every DESIRE TO REPEAT what happened.” Your anger over what happened has blinded you to the realities of the past – and the present as well. If anything, it will incite new prejudice in the ignorant – and they vote.

Member
My anger is not over what happened during WWII, my anger stems from what is happening RIGHT NOW in Hungary. Horthy preyed on the nationalistic character and pride of the Hungarian people. There was enthusiasm by the Horthy government with participation of the deportations in the countryside. HIS hatred of Jews is what blinded him. I am not saying that Horthy could have thwarted an invasion by Germany, what I am saying is that instead of bringing out the anti-semitic attitudes in the people, he could have encouraged Hungarians to form a sort of resistance to what some truly knew was happening around Europe with the Jews. A lot more could have been done to save many more than what were spared in Budapest. The systematic manipulation of Hungarians by the current government is what angers me now. Once again bringing out the hateful ignorance of Hungarians against immigrants, using the good Hungarian people as their patsies once again. You and I both know that Orban is playing both sides for purely financial gain, not for Hungary but for his own pocket all while getting the Hungarian people to do his dirty work. It is easy to form a hatefilled… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Rev. Kovacs, Liz Aucoin’s suggestion that you move to Hungary isn’t a bad one. Once you retire, your retirement dollars will go a lot farther in Hungary, you can pick up social security checks in Hungary with no problem (I’ve personally seen US Embassy people in Budapest helping Hun-American retirees with this). IF you have property in the States, you will be able to buy something much more luxurious to live in when you move to Hungary with the proceeds from the sale. You should even have money enough left over to hire a maid to clean your place in Hungary. Most importantly, you will finally live in an illiberal country that is following policies you prefer to those of the United States where (in your view) “liberals” have ruined everything. Before you move to the Hungarian paradise, though, do please ask yourself why Orban and company have not opened the communist secret police files, and think long and hard about what that means. If you don’t have any problem with that, or don’t quite understand what I’m getting at, please pack your bag as quickly as possible, get right out of the US, and move to Hungary – chop… Read more »
TeamBritanniaHu
Guest
Having taught in Catholic Primary and Secondary schools, both in the UK and Hungary, I am surprised that nothing is done in Hungary to mark HMD (Holocaust Memorial Day), a commemoration which takes place in many countries throughout the world. Secondly, when the Hungarian commemoration day is held, the emphasis is on the Holocaust as the result of the German occupation of Hungary, not as the direct result of decisions taken by successive Hungarian governments in the Horthy era, including those who tried to follow an anti-Axis foreign policy, or of the widespread, well-documented anti-Semitism among the ruling classes, including the clergy. However, rather than finger-waving, the whole point of HMD is to remember the Holocaust and ‘Shoah’ of 1942-45 as an international event, with all countries bearing some measure of responsibility for it an subsequent acts of genocide, either by sins of commission or omission. In addition, rather than another day on which students are forced to listen passively to prelates, pastors, and priests, they have to come up with their own ideas for local acts of commemoration. I have tried to include these in my English lessons, but have met with a mixture of apathy and thinly-veiled hostility:… Read more »
spectator
Guest

“Why are you so obsessed with the…….. truth?”

Honestly, people, just why should/would to have mislead/fool/kid ourselves?

Did anyone discovered yet that lying is the best way, to achieve the – what is that, exactly?
Isn’t the best way to clear the slate and move on?

In my opinion: yes, we should face the facts, and yes, we should take the consequences, and yes, we should move on!

All of us, – as is in of both side – after the resolution.

It couldn’t be harder than tis.
Even if we are talking about Hungarians – come on, for Heavens sake!

tappanch
Guest

The Hungarian government awarded the doubled budget (38.7 billion HUF) to build the avenue of the 2017 Swimming World Championship to Orban’s buddy of (MET & favorite soccer team) fame Garancsi.

http://444.hu/2015/06/19/orban-kemenyen-dolgozo-multimilliardos-kisember-haverja-nyerte-a-dagaly-387-milliardos-kivitelezeset/

I can tell you from personal experience that 1/3 of the selected location, Dagaly spa is already completely destroyed: all of the trees are uprooted, one big pool is gone. From the plan in the article I can see that the entire Dagaly spa (favorite place of the not-so-well-to-do) will be destroyed within a year before they build the new place for the elite.
comment image

Probably most of the big old trees will be cut to satisfy Orban’s megalomania…

tappanch
Guest

The northern third (to the right) is already a wasteland:
comment image?Dag%C3%A1ly%20gy%C3%B3gyf%C3%BCrd%C5%91

petofi
Guest

It was precisely the wonderous, big, trees of Dagaly that one went there on a hot summers day. To ponder the dance of the branches and leaves, and then to jump into the 50 meter pool when over-heated. The place was frequented by the not-well-to-do and many Roma. It was a glorious place.

In the future, when Fidesz and Orban will be held to account, it must be remembered that they not only destroyed the favorites of the common people, but they nurtured the unforgivable sin of bad taste.

tappanch
Guest

At the two ends of the same rope (Garancsi’s own description of his relationship to Orban):
comment image

http://nol.hu/gazdasag/a-latszat-szep-de-orban-uj-baratja-fontosabb-1541157

petofi
Guest

I’d like to caption that pic of Orban and Garancsi:

Orban, thinking: “Now, where did I leave my fiddle?”

Guest
Re: ‘Hungarians are at least three generations behind the Germans in coming to terms with their Holocaust’ Sure looks it. The fact that virulent hatred lurks boldly in the country today says a lot. It’s an understatement to say the country hasn’t accepted nor wishes to explore the past in its conduct to the Jews. There is obviously a grave grave problem with their moral compass. I mean we are talking of destroying human beings like swatting flies. Magyarorszag just seems as if it doesn’t ‘get it’. As for the compulsory education of the Holocaust, if not at the egyetem then where? It simply not to be happening anywhere in Magyar society. As one noted here already it’s a start. And on the Catholic Church. At times I think she absconds from her role in being a pillar on moral affairs. The sexual abuse scandals are one example. Same can be said for her thinking and reaction to all things Jewish in the country. She too as an institution is not where they and the country should be on arguably one of the great moral crises in our modern age. At bottom the Church needs to do better. We will… Read more »
István
Guest

St. Stephen King Of Hungary Church here in Chicago, IL could use incorporation of some of the Holocaust curriculum as part of the Hungarian language and cultural curriculum for American Hungarian children. Discussing what happened is not considered to be polite and part of a long past history that does not reflect well on our nationality. It would be good if Rev Kovacs reflected on that part of our American Hungarian Christian heritage.

Trianon is discussed as part of the cultural education of our children here in Chicago, especially since Transylvanians compose a significant component of the community here. I was largely ignorant of even the outlines of the Hungarian Holocaust until well into middle age. In fact I learned more from the book The Holocaust in Hungary: Evolution of a Genocide published by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum that Eva reviewed than I ever knew before and realized how profound my ignorance of what took place was.

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Born and educated in America, although my grandparents came from Abauj and Ung/Szabolcs, I knew almost no Hungarian, less about Hungary, still less about Trianon, and – where the heck are Romania, Serbia, Croatia, etc. … My high school courses in history ( incl. 3 yrs German language ) taught me about our western European heritage, but nothing about these others. In high school I even subscribed to Soviet Russia Today. … The same for my peers of Danish/Norwegian/Swedish background. – – – I did learn about the Holocaust, but very little, from German, Hungarian and Jewish friends’ families, but nobody talked about it. . . . It was in college that I was exposed to Trianon and its inevitable consequence of WW2. . . . BUT Hungary and eastern Europe is sooo far away. Who knows? So who cares??? – – – NOW! I resent the put downs here of the Hungarians – like putting down all Americans as KKK sympathizers, Aryan nation rednecks, etc. . . . Just as these mindless ignoramuses do not represent the people of this land, neither do the Jew haters in Hungary. I have met there and here too many good and caring… Read more »
exTor
Guest
You’re not a Jew and you’re not a Roma, Rev AW Kovacs, therefore it is fairly easy for those EuroHungarians whom you have met to deal with you positively, thus creating the basis for your belief about the “many good and caring Hungarians”, which is no doubt true, but context is everything. I am just as North American as you, but I now live in Hungary. I can speak the language, though much less well than my English. (And thus it ever shall be, sad to say.) That NWS, I still get it when someone puts down the Roma (as I heard yesterday when I was at my mother’s cousin’s place) or when someone talks against Jews in a conversation. Your history recount is quite factual, albeit Horthy-soft and antiCommunist, which dovetails with your anticommunism, although I doubt that you get the political distinction. Question: How are Béla Kun, Arrow Cross and Jobbik “traitors” –your term– to Hungary? The tenor of your second post puts you beside Viktor Orbán. You “resent the putdowns [in Hungarian Spectrum] of [–] Hungarians” as if that is the HS reality. What is disparaged, actually, is the widespread cultural racism that exists in Hungary, but… Read more »
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Bela Kun sold out Hungarian freedom to the nightmare of Lenin’s Communist ideology, enslavement of the people to the state (Machiavelli updated). Arrow Cross adopted the Nazi ideology and when the Nazis moved in it was they who took over the government from Horthy (who was seized and exiled – Hitler always tried to make it look like he had the support of the government when he marched in and took over – which gave him an undeserved bad name). It was with Arrow Cross in control (nose led by the Nazis) that pulled off the Jewish “resettlement” to Auschwitz. – It is Jobbik that makes the Hungarians look like the Nazi’s of yesterday and the skinheads of today. They betray their heritage with an ideology of hatred. Old King Stephen saw the necessity of Hungary integrating in its life the diverse ethnic communities – and denying that is to despise one of the nation’s founding principles. – – – Yes, I heard the denigration of the Roma in Hungary, equivalent to the racism against the blacks in America. How each got to where they are is very different, but the manifestation is very similar – and probably the answers… Read more »
exTor
Guest

Well Rev, I dont know what to say, except that I’m reminded of the old Lone Ranger series, wherein Tonto (played by Jay Silverheels, a Mohawk from Ontario) used to say “White man speak with forked tongue.”

So, AW Kovacs, who are you? The apparent racist who supports Hungary’s moves to restrict immigration that you feel will dilute Magyar culture? Or the compassionate man of God who cries at the mistreatment accorded to the Roma and who is increasingly disturbed by antisemitism?

Perhaps you’re just confused.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
exTor – No confusion here. Hungary’s ten million have survived, amidst the diverse nations surrounding it, as a people with a unique culture accompanying its unique language – surely one of the hardest to learn. – Someone suggested one time to take the several cans of paint and to mix them, which resulted in a can of “mud.” At the same time, another suggested the colors of many skeins of wool be carefully woven into a pattern, where the colors would show and a beautiful mixture would delight the eye. – Hungary has special gifts to share from its unique history, culture, arts, music, etc. A large influx from other lands would dilute it, like the phony paprika imported several years ago that adulterated that of Szeged and other regions, ruining its paprika’s reputation. … The resolution of the immigrant problem is to enable them to stay closer to their own land and culture, to live the kind of life their family has enjoyed and make their own contribution to the colorful world where we live. … Immigration of great numbers from diverse cultures has not worked in France, Germany, England, etc. Why would one expect that Hungary would have… Read more »
petofi
Guest
The Seeding of Anti-Semitism Let’s examine the principles. Szuromi first. Some questions bubble to the mind: Has he recanted the teaching of Prohaszka publicly? Has he lobbied the government that in the interests of ridding the country of anti-semitism, the semitic writings be taken off school curriculums? Has he preached in the pulpit against the evils of anti-semitism and the past of Hungary? Has he dealt with the question of why Hungary sent 350,000 more jews to Auscwitz than the nazis asked for? Has he set up teachings in Sunday school to rehabilitate the ‘Jew’ as a normal Hungarian equal in every way to other Hungarians? I don’t think you’ll find a ‘yes’ in the whole pot. Now, about the well-meaning ambassador, Mor. He is of Polish and Romanian parentage, probably born in Israel and educated there. If he knows the Hungarian language, it’s as a foreigner. Nowhere in his resume did I see that he has actually lived in Hungary prior to his posting in 2011, and therefore would have an inkling of the peculiar Hungarian, tricky, mindset that is the norm. In other words, Orban’s words, “Watch what I do not what I say” does not really resonate… Read more »
petofi
Guest

re my above submission: The first two lines just popped up in the submission. I don’t know where they came from. Also, I wasn’t given the customary 5 minutes to edit it out….

(Have you been hacked, Eva?)

spectator
Guest

Being a Hungarian by all means – except permanent address since some years back – I dare say that making anything compulsory will produce the opposite effect, guaranteed!

Anyone remembers the time when learning Russian was mandatory? Just how many of you would be able to formulate five sentences in a row after twelve/sixteen years of Russian education, except the very few who needed the language later on for one reason or another?

What I trying to point at is that to ensure in Hungary that some topic will be hated or at least neglected, make it obligatory, and it works like charm, all the times.

That’s what is happening, ladies and gentlemen: the powers that be will make sure, that antisemitic sentiments prevail, so there’s no problem will arise later on when the true colors of National Socialism comes to surface for good.

Remember, in Orbanistan nothing happens randomly, or by accident, everything is part of the greater plan. If you put together the pieces and able to see the whole picture you’ll certainly see, what I mean.

Blazkowicz Inc. (@bjohnblazkowicz)
Guest
Apparently other Hungarian schools and universities must fall in line with the liberal treasonous doctrine. Let’s connect the dots: -fall 2014 -Brussels pushes for formation of Antifa organizations in Eastern Europe -these are libtards’ SA troops used if the population would protest against immigration, against homosexuality and other anti-European “values”; these staged anti-demonstrations are designed to keep the appearance of plurality of opinion, based on which the liberal tyranny can reign further -spring of 2015 -Brussels comes up with quota system designed to spread the immigrants across Europe, so no one would escape the liberal plague -Hungary decide to humiliate Brussels, vehemently opposing the plans -summer of 2015 -Serbia’s so-called “progressive” PM (another Trojan horse fullhorde libtard), pretends to be offended by Hungary’s decision to build up border fences to the Hungarian-Serbian border, talking about the measure as this would endanger the Hungarian-Serbian relationship, when in fact this measure is taken against foreign immigrants not against the Serbian people -summer of 2015 -Brussels hire two Israeli political hitman errr.. I mean ambassadors to “sensibilize” and to “educate” Hungarian scholars and the Hungarian people who do not like “diversity” and “multiculturalism”; starting as a small move in the beginning this move… Read more »
spectator
Guest

Li’l darling there!

Would you care to mention one single other EU member state, where “Brussels” pushed its agenda too, regarding the “Holocaust course”?

Wasn’t the Hungarian government who issued the doctrine, but some EU-Israeli-liberal conglomerate, what I am not aware of, since I’m living in a happily Orbán-free environment?

You may also want to check your dictionary to ascertain that next time you’ll avoid such stupid expressions like “liberal tyranny”, you know. If you are at it you may want to look up “oxymoron” as well, it will help to understand the former.

Thank you in advance, I hardly wait the enlightenment!

exTor
Guest

The chunder from this (apparently Romanian) right-wing intellectual zero is not worth responding to. Anybody who glories in Hitler by displaying a Nazi soldier is an out-and-out loozer. The kill switch needs to be readied.

MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest

Right you are, Éva. I extrapolated (perhaps inaccurately) based on some of the tweets from Blazkowicz, which may be a fake name.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church

You’ve got it right about immigration in America – and losing what worked to build a great country – to yielding up its principles and values of peoples from failed governments and cultures. . . . It’s what Hungarians are rejecting, seeking to avoid the ruin of their nation.

exTor
Guest

You’re a better person than I am, Éva. I have no idea what AW Kovacs is saying. Based on the indent, I presume that AWK is ‘responding’ to Blazkowicz, however that’s all I know, except that AWK’s grandparents came to the States, which probably means between WW1 & WW2. Genes were definitely different then.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church

exTor: My grandparents came to the USA about 1900, one couple married here and one in Perkupa (Abauj northern Hungary – I saw the notation in the Rom. Cath. church Anyakonyv). My mother was born here, but they returned about 1904 and the second girl was born in Zahony; coming back in 1912 and to stay the third and fourth daughters were born in the USA). My paternal grandparents never returned. My father was in the US Navy in 1924 for four years, and refused to let me learn Hungarian because we were Americans!!! . . . Among my best friends were the young refugees from Communism in 1947 and later 1956. … Also among my friends is EU Parliament member Laszlo Tokes, who labors persistently for “minority” rights for Hungarians in Romania.

exTor
Guest

http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/06/19/a-compulsory-course-on-the-holocaust-at-the-hungarian-catholic-university/comment-page-1/#comment-98570

Per the link, I counseled you on the “need to read more carefully”, however I now retract that counsel, Rev Kovacs. You have revealed yourself as a racist. You need to stop reading Hungarian Spectrum. We dont need you.

Éva was quicker on the uptake than I.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church

Blazkowicz – I’m in basic agreement with you. … The immigrants moved into Hazleton because it was cheap housing (big coal mine town vacated as the mines closed and there was no work) even though there was no work. The government paid and paid although almost nobody worked. When the Mayor, speaking for the people, objected and the city council passed laws to save the town from bankruptcy, the federal courts squashed it all. The Washington liberals have ruined the town and laid the burden on supporting the immigrants on the American taxpayer.

Webber
Guest
Rev Kovacs – you mentioned when your family came to the US. From the perspective of my ancestors, whose members fought in both the American Revolution (my daughter might join the DAR if she chooses) and the Civil War, and among whom is at least one Native American (possibly more), you and your whole family are a bunch of newcomers. What you wrote to Blazkowicz reminded me of some things I heard as a child. I remember one of my great uncles saying horrible things about Catholics ruining the country, that they were lazy and controlled by the Pope, and that they should never have been let in at all, that it had been a terrible mistake to let them in – a mistake made over a very long time, and still not corrected -, and that the Catholics would out breed Protestants, and the Pope (the anti-Christ) would soon control America. That uncle of mine – a banker, incidentally – was a disgusting bigot (though not an antisemite – he only hated Catholics), and a rather unpleasant person in general. He thought even Republicans were too liberal. What you wrote above reminded me of him. How can you be… Read more »
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church

The difference is the Irish, Hungarians, Poles, etc. came to work . These recent illegals came to Hazleton where there was no work – the families there had to move out to survive – and the newcomers knew they would immediately go on the dole!

In Hungary there is a job shortage, so many of working age leave for work in Austria, Germany, England, or wherever (some educated young people I know – including to the USA). The unskilled often work on jobs provided by the government, which does help. So what would they do with an influx of refugees? It is a very small country with limited economic resources – which encourages any jobs it can get by international companies, like BMW or Philips.

Webber
Guest
It’s all very familiar, as if my uncle were talking “they are taking our jobs” – a line this Hungarian government has encouraged with its ad campaign (“you can’t take jobs from Hungarians”). My uncle would also say, without noticing the contradiction between the two statements, that “they are lazy and just come for the welfare…”, and that they “just have children for more welfare.” I heard all that decades and decades ago – especially about Mexicans. How many illegal immigrants are there in the US now? About 12 m.? And how many (legal) Mexican-Americans are there? About 10% of the whole population, isn’t it? The old arguments didn’t work, and still don’t. The immigrants, however, do – they’re working in every construction project I’ve ever seen, and working hard. They, too, seem to defy all the stereotypes. When I baled Christmas trees one winter as a teenager, the Mexicans on the job baled three trees to every two I could get through the baler, and they worked without breaks. They were working on a piece wage, obviously. They were the hardest working people I’d ever seen. As to Hungary – most of the migrants seem to want to leave… Read more »
Webber
Guest
P.S. As to what you said about Muslims coming and not wanting to assimilate – that was EXACTLY my Uncle’s point about Catholics. Incidentally, my Uncle would have hated Catholic Hungarians, too – deeply, and would have considered you, personally, a foul liberal, and a traitor to America and Protestantism, for defending them – for defending them simply because they are Hungarian. He was a bigot, as I said. What you said about Muslims is bigotry. And before my words are twisted, I don’t mean what you said about persecution of others, notably including Christians, in many Muslim countries. That I too deplore. But has it not occurred to you yet that many of the people fleeing from those countries are, potentially, victims of that brutality? Some are Christian refugees from the Middle East. Others who are running are moderate Muslims, or people of other faiths who have everything to fear. Where is your Christian compassion for these people? Do you really want to describe them all as Muslim fanatics, and close the gates to them? That, exactly, was America’s treatment of Jews fleeing Europe during some crucial years – and was what many Americans supported. A terrible shame, not… Read more »
Guest

Re: ‘Likewise I can recall at the same time reading in Bob Dent’s Blue Guide book on Budapest that a memorial to Wallenberg located somewhere near Moszkva tér was placed so far away from where he performed his heroic deeds because of the “sensitivity” that existed at that time’

Not sure if this relates to the above but in my first edition of the Guide (1990) it is noted that the ‘second street’ off Rajk Laszlo ut was the only public memorial to Wallenberg in Budapest. And that a statue commissioned from the sculptor Pal Patzay ‘mysteriously’ disappeared on the eve of its unveiling in nearby Szent Istvan Park in April 1949.

Guest

And just one final comment if I may.

The benefit of these kinds of discussions on unfortunately pretty sordid topics that have occurred in our world is that it makes one pay attention.

I pulled out my copy of ‘Good Evening Mr Wallenberg’ , a film made back in the early 90’s , which looks at the Nazi ‘program’ at work in Budapest during the latter part of the war. No doubt some have seen it. As I was watching I thought perhaps the Church might make the effort to show it. But I am not sure if they would be brave enough fearing an incendiary reaction. Some of the scenes are extremely difficult to watch.

Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Guest
Rev Albert W. Kovacs - Reformed Church
Your point is well taken, and this film as well as Shindler’s List, etc., should be seen repeatedly! After all, we may say “Never again!”, but when does never end. One looks at the dreadful plight of the persecuted by Islamists – then we need to shudder with contempt for those who don’t want to be bothered by the tragic news. Alexis Mathé wrote in 1940 (The Hungarian Quarterly – Autumn issue) of his visit to America for three months on many aspects, but concluded with the Americans’ views on the outbreak of war in Europe. “What interested me was the attitude of the man in the street, and it was certainly very impressive to see how strongly the man in the street felt about maintaining strict neutrality and about correctly maintained non-intervention. Even in New York, but more often in provincial towns, tablets could be seen on the cars by the side of the number [sic “license”] plate bearing the American emblem and colours and the inscription: “We want to remain neutral. Keep U.S. off the war.” . . . “I left the States on May 18, after a stay of two months and a half. Our boat, the… Read more »
Guest

Rev:

At this point as an outside and concerned American observer of the Magyar ‘situation’ I am looking for perhaps a ‘Lincoln’ in politics of the day but all I see are pale wisps of politicians acting like not too good used car salesmen. Immoral men think immoral thoughts. Perhaps with your effort you can rise to the occasion and help the country confront and take responsibility where it is needed immensely as it is likely she can sink into a moral quagmire.

For when Hungary votes in, in free-elections, a Jewish prime minister of state then I will know the country would have vomited up some of the poisons that have been perhaps quietly dormant and now ably alive and vocal. Perhaps then she’ll evade the fate of being perhaps another fresh petri dish of hateful anti-Jewish feeling in the post-war era that has started to filter about. We are in the time again of scapegoats.

István
Guest

I would argue that András Kállay-Saunders the bi-racial American-Hungarian signer is as much a Hungarian as anyone who has posted to this blog. In fact maybe more so because he was so attracted by Hugarian culture that he moved from the USA to be with his mother and extended Hungarian family. Given the fusion pot of Central European people who became Hungarian by identification and language adoption, Sándor Petőfi being one of the most famous, who are any of us to decide what constitutes cultural preservation.

exTor
Guest

I played the Botos video over and over and I’m not getting what you want me to appreciate from it, Éva. I understood most of what was written, but a lot of it escapes me because I cant put it into a requisite context.

I did some reading and found out that she was an economist who was a minister-without-portfolio in the Antall government, which (by the bye) strikes me as an early (center-right) version of the current government.

This may be too broad to talk about in one small post. Perhaps this could be a future teachable post.? What am I not getting? And what is Kolompár?

MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest
#1 … 98512 … June 19 @ 11:31 PM … 1st #2 … 98591 … June 21 @ 5:12 PM … 5th #3 … 98597 … June 21 @ 8:22 PM … 8th #4 … 98626 … June 22 @ 10:15 PM … 13th #5 … 98563 … June 20 @ 9:13 PM … 2nd #6 … 98589 … June 21 @ 4:32 PM … 4th #7 … 98598 … June 21 @ 8:53 PM … 9th #8 … 98583 … June 21 @ 11:52 AM … 3rd #9 … 98594 … June 21 @ 6:58 PM … 6th #10 … 98627 … June 22 @ 10:43 PM … 14th #11 … 98696 … June 24 @ 6:39 PM … 15th #12 … 98595 … June 21 @ 7:14 PM … 7th #13 … 98599 … June 21 @ 9:01 PM … 10th #14 … 98616 … June 22 @ 2:17 PM … 11th #15 … 98617 … June 22 @ 3:08 PM … 12th Mighty WHITE of you, Rev, to allow that you have many “nonCaucasian” friends [#10]. You are a “some of my best friends are black” fool. And you dont even get it. You dont understand why I… Read more »
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