Ignorance and prejudice in Hungary

Tibor Frank, a Canadian-Hungarian economist who lives in Vancouver, just returned from Hungary after a longer visit where he gave several interviews. After his return he also talked to Kanadai Magyar Hírlap about his impressions. During the interview he expressed his amazement at “how someone can turn around his little finger a whole country, how he can enrich his whole family, how he can turn against the whole world and how he can still remain popular.” Indeed, he is not alone in finding all this difficult to understand.

At the moment the refugee question and the government’s response to the arrival of migrants is the hottest topic in Hungary, something that sharply divides society. The campaign of fear and hate conducted by Fidesz politicians continues unabated. Just to give one example, here is László Kövér, one of the founders of Fidesz and best friend of Viktor Orbán, who wonders whether the large number of refugees arriving in Europe is not so much a simple migration as Orbán described it but “an invasion organized with a secret purpose in mind.” Terrorists arriving in Europe “may make the next decades the age of dread.” So, it’s no wonder that a barely literate man, who lives right on the Serbian-Hungarian border, says on a video taken by HVG that “Europe is kaput,” or that “something is going to happen here,” which I take to be a primitive summary of Kövér’s fear-mongering vision.

It makes a difference what kinds of messages the population receives from its political leaders. Hatred mixed with fear has spread like wildfire all over Hungary lately, the sources of which are Fidesz and Jobbik politicians. And the seeds of hatred find a perfect breeding ground in the backward region where most of the refugees cross the Serbian-Hungarian border.

ignorance

What do these people know about the new arrivals? The older woman on the HVG video knows absolutely nothing about them and has no desire to learn. “It’s not my business,” she says. The police should take care of them. The man on the video thinks he does know something. According to him, the refugees are Kurds who are “cigányok, Roma” and, showing off his knowledge of English, adds “Gypsies, you know.” He is originally from Subotica/Szabadka where they call these Kurds “talibánok” because they come from “Tália or something.” He may be ignorant but he has strong opinions. He is not afraid of the migrants because after all he has a “shovel, hoe, and pitchfork” which “unfortunately” he didn’t have to use yet. Why unfortunately? “Because I can’t stand them.”

And I suspect that not too many people in this region have more accurate information about the refugees than these two.

Yesterday we talked about the generally low level of medical knowledge among Hungarians. One of the comments to the post talked about unhealthful eating habits. Indeed, it is a major problem that should be dealt with on the highest political level. But as a commenter pointed out, there is no government campaign to change the dietary habits of Hungarians. The result is obvious, as it should be to the prime minister himself who has put on a great deal of weight. Obesity is a huge problem in the United States, but Barack and Michelle Obama have been actively promoting a change in dietary habits. Obesity is also a problem in Hungary, but there the population only sees and hears how much the prime minister likes “Hungarian  cuisine.”

And finally, let’s talk about another area of ignorance, the nature of homosexuality. This topic has been in the forefront of discussions lately, mostly because of the very successful Budapest Pride, a week of celebrations for the 20th anniversary of the first gay demonstration in Budapest. Although this was the largest Pride ever, the majority of Hungarians still entertain virulently homophobic attitudes. Again, some of these prejudices stem from ignorance. And I’m talking not only about ignorant laymen. I’m talking about a doctor who, on top of everything else, is a DK politician in Baranya County. His name is László Sütő, and he is a general practitioner (háziorvos) in the village of Baksa, population 800. To DK as well as to Gyurcsány personally, who is a supporter of the LGBT community, he became a major embarrassment.

Sütő spread his ignorance on Facebook where he claimed that “the science of medicine considers all chromosomal abnormality illness. There can be no exception for sexual chromosomes.” After this pseudo-scientific announcement he expressed his true feelings with the worst kinds of obscenities. It turned out that Sütő has gone through many parties since the regime change in 1990. Originally he was a member of the Smallholders, which before the appearance of István Csurka’s MIÉP was considered to be the quintessential rightist party. Later he joined MSZP and, when Gyurcsány left the socialists, Sütő followed him to the newly established Demokratikus Koalíció. Sütő apparently also held views not exactly compatible with the ideas of his party on the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, when he took a pro-Moscow position.

One could say that a single ignorant doctor means nothing. The trouble is that he is not alone. I  myself encountered a Hungarian psychiatrist who believed that homosexuality is like smoking. One can take it up and one can give it up. And just yesterday another learned physician felt compelled, on György Bolgár’s program, to support Sütő’s position. So, I was glad that today a real scientist and an expert on the subject was invited to report on the state of scientific research into the genetic component of homosexuality.

Unfortunately, getting rid of ignorance, which fuels prejudice and hatred, doesn’t serve the interests of the present regime. Actually the more ignorant the better; they will believe everything the government tells them.

Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
petofi
Guest

It is much simpler ‘to believe’ than ‘to ponder’ and ‘to consider’.
The latter has been known to interfere with the smooth imbibing of beer or spirits…

Hajra Magya–Magya–Magy-a—-Magyarok!

Guest

Hungarians appear to be a socially very sick people for the most part, suffering from a kind of chronic mental retardation, sunk in pathetic ignorance and possessed of a deeply ingrained malevolence.

Their endless stupid capers and self-created misadventures are interesting enough to observe and comment on from a safe distance, but I consider myself very, very lucky indeed that as an unaccompanied minor I was fortunate enough to leave them behind for good in November 1956.

Laszlo Sipos
Guest

Mike,I will be forever grateful to my parents that they carried me safely across the border in 1956 and eventually to New Jersey.You can’t imagine the amount of abuse directed at me for helping these poor refugees here in Hungary.I was never more ashamed of being born here ! Many regular people are helping out the mostly Syrian and Afghan refugee including countless children,but the government is wasting money on a fence and propaganda campaign against “the potential terrorists” which violates EU immigration policy.It took me back to 1956 when I saw these poor children sleeping in the dirt and remember the kindness of Austrians and Americans who helped us and also the two Hungarians who betrayed my father.

Alex Kuli
Guest

Eva – It’s not entirely accurate that the government is doing nothing to change dietary habits. For example, the state recently banned salt shakers from public-school cafeterias and ordered the cooks to cut down on unhealthy ingredients.

I agree that not enough is being done. But a good home-cooked rakott kaposzta is enough to make even the most ardent fitness buff weak at the knees.

Guest
“All things truly wicked start from innocence.” Perhaps after hearing the constant, confident and sacred mantra of ‘Christianity, nationalism and a ‘different’ political way’ the quip of Hemingway’s appears to hone in on the apparent deep malaise affecting the Magyar state. I can only think Hungary may be in some sort of ‘dark age’ where ignorance is bliss and where ‘politics’ is crafted deep in the dank marshes in a night free from prying eyes with no light from a moon. Going to take a while to lift the shroud off this not only in the political arena but also in the cultural and social milieus as well. I don’t think they’ve escaped scalping as well. Speaking of ’56, the name Tibor reminded me of some of my classmates in grade school who were all close to the events either through personal or family experience. Smart guy Tibor. Not sure if he ever went back but if he did I’d say it would have been a win for Hungary. I think they’d probably have a space program shooting rockets all over the place…;-)…..If I met him today I think we would have a fascinating conversation especially on how the tide… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

Petofi and Mike Balint –
Your offensive, malicious comments are largely unfair. I’d go as far as calling it an outright hate campaign against the Hungarian people in general. This is pure ANTI-HUNGARIANISM!
The definition of racial discrimination:
” . . . when a person/people treated less favorably than another person/people in similar situation because of their national or ethnic origin.”

Mike Balint said: “Hungarians appear to be a socially very sick people for the most part, suffering from a kind of chronic mental retardation, sunk in pathetic ignorance and possessed of a deeply ingrained malevolence.”
Yes, we are very “ignorant” and “retarded” for allowing some of your abusive comments appear almost daily and NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT! I do NOT believe that you could get away with this anywhere else, with any other nations! May I ask you: what would REALLY satisfy your thirst and hunger?

Guest
@Latefor July 16, 2015 at 12:27 am Nyugi, nyugi, kisasszony. Kinek nem inge, ne vegye magára. As to your question “May I ask you: what would REALLY satisfy your thirst and hunger?”: I am neither thirsty nor hungry, and certainly not for the blood of little Hungarian girls for Passover matzot. Arról már rég leszoktam. In fact, I haven’t got a dog in this fight, just call it as I see it as a distant observer. When Hungary becomes a genuine liberal democracy where decency, straight dealing and civic virtue rule; where the currently all-pervasive corruption and the Maffia state becomes just a bad memory; where a thriving voluntary and non-governmental civic sector is enthusiastically encouraged and funded by a genuinely democratic government to fill gaps in social well-being; where Jewish and the Roma citizens cease to be publicly and privately abused in the form of zsidózás and cigányozás, and are welcomed as a matter of course with open arms as just as much a part of the nation as everyone else; when Hungarians had fully come to terms with their own direct and causative role in the disasters that befell on them the past century; when Hungary and Hungarians… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

Mike Balint said to Latefor:
“Well now, does this answer satisfy the thrust of your slyly antisemitic and not a little hysterical question?”

Are you calling me “slyly antisemitic”? How dare you allow yourself to terrorize me with your name calling? You have no idea how much effort of my time I’ve put in to fight against hatred over the years, ONLINE ! You are verbally terrorizing the Hungarian people and YOU calling ME an anti-Semite? If you have issues with the Orban Government, why don’t you write to him an open letter and lecture him about what you demand from him and his government “as a distant observer”. Oh no, you wouldn’t do that, would you? It’s much easier to generalize, rubbish and humiliate the innocent Hungarian people on the world stage, who cannot defend themselves. It’s so easy to throw the “anti-Semitic” label on unsuspecting people, is it?
I demand an apology!

Guest

@Latefor
July 16, 2015 at 3:37 am

You efforts at combating hate online are sincerely appreciated.

If, however, you regard my entries above as “terrorizing” either your good self or the the entire people of Hungary, then I think you ought to look up in a good dictionary the meaning of “terrorizing”. You will find it means something quite different from what you think it does.

As to the main point of your tirade, the Orbán government is a mere symptom, in fact a purest of pure product of Hungarian society at large, a genuine hungarikum. And it always makes a whole lot more more sense to address the root cause, rather than wasting time on symptoms.

Sorry, no apologies.

Latefor
Guest

@Mike Balint – For the life of me, I cannot understand your reasoning. The Hungarian people elected the Orban Government, with a 2/3 majority. If he is good enough for the Hungarian people, do you honestly believe that you will change their minds to vote for neo-liberalism if you call them “socially very sick”, “mental retards” and “genetically inferior morons”? Or is there a new marketing campaign out there which uses reverse psychology?

Your refusal to apologize to me sends a wrong message to the “morons” out there (like myself), who might decide to fight against antisemitism. They will say: “well, if you put so much effort into something and in the end you get a big kick in your backside, then why should I bother?”

Re: terrorism – it was supposed to be “verbal terror”

olga
Guest

I think when someone writes: “Nyugi, nyugi, kisasszony. Kinek nem inge, ne vegye magára.” you pretty well know who you are dealing with, thus any reasonable debate and/or discussion stops right there 🙂

Guest

Talált, süllyedt 🙂 lol (I mean spot on observation)

olga
Guest

@ G Nagy – I did not know that expression but I am always willing to learn 🙂

Based on that comment , Mexican people in general ought not be offended by Trump’s remarks as long as they themselves are not “rapists, drug runners and criminals “.

Moreover, a law abiding Roma ought not be insulted by such a derogatory word like “ciganybunozes” – S/he should just be told ” nyugi, nyugi” etc

The best way to fight racism is to be a racist. Got it

Latefor
Guest

Yes, I have to agree with you, Olga.

Guest

Content and opinion apart I feel the “nyugi, nyugi kisasszony” part condescending to say the least, and to better understand what you wrote let’s play a game changing the beginning of your sentence:

“xyz appear to be a socially very sick people for the most part, suffering from a kind of chronic mental retardation, sunk in pathetic ignorance and possessed of a deeply ingrained malevolence.”

(for xyz please enter the followings one by one: blacks, muslims, jews, gypsies, chinese, canadiens, latinos etc.)

I hope you see the point now.

Based on your reluctance to apologize I see you thinking “the most part” actually saves this hate sentence, because “akinek nem inge ne vegye magára”. Don’t fool yourself. One should never write down such a sentence for any nations or races on the earth.

Latefor
Guest

Thank you, G. Nagy!

Guest

I could add, speaking of personal experience, that as if it was not enough that (some) Hungarians are ignorant and (sometimes) prejudiced, they also cannot bear criticism (which makes things even worse). Luckily, not all Hungarians are like but to get back to Eva’s post and Tibor Frank’s comment, it also goes beyond my understanding why the Hungarian populace doesn’t react. Ignorance and prejudice? They might play a role but still.

exTor
Guest

I understand where Latefor is coming from, however she is overexercised in her characterization of Mike Balint as exhibiting antiHungarianism.

When Mike Balint litanized the evils that exist in Hungary, he did not state that each and every Magyar incorporates those negatives, he merely implied that they are pervasive, meaning widespread, not total.

That said, it did bother me to read [Balint, 8:50 PM, currently response-position #2] “Hungarians appear to be a socially very sick people …”. He did qualify it with “for the most part”.

Regardless, this is an unsophisticated blanket condemnation of an entire population. A hypothetical [racist !!!] US equivalency might be “Blacks seem to be criminals for the most part …”.

Mike Balint, there are smarter cover-your-ass ways ways to get your point across so that you dont tar an entire group with your brush.

As for Latefor, she may be soft on Viktor Orbán, however I have not seen anything that would peg her as antisemitic. She feels aggrieved, rightly so.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Latefor
Guest

Thanks for your support, exTor 🙂

olga
Guest

Frankly, I am surprised how few people support you, but count me in 🙂

Latefor
Guest

Thanks, Olga. It’s time for Hungarianst to wake up and defend our honor on the world stage. I’m sick of going to functions and hear about how bad the Hungarian people are. Just imagine: you go to a wedding. . . you sit down with let’s say eight people at the table . . . they ask about your accent . . . you tell them your accent . . . and it starts. I have to smile politely when some of the people take great pleasure “belting” the horrible Hungarians. So these people can have a fantastic time at my expense and I go home upset, having the wind taken out of my sales! No more! Enough!

Latefor
Guest

It was supposed to be “sails”

Havelaar
Guest

“I’m sick of going to functions and hear about how bad the Hungarian people are.”

Still a lot of truth in what Kertesz wrote.

http://hungarianspectrum.org/2013/11/15/akos-kertesz-granted-political-asylum-in-canada/

Although he admitted that his choice of the word “genetically” made no sense, the attacks on him continued for about six months.

He compared his fellow Hungarians to pigs who for the slop the farmer puts in front of them happily grunt, not realizing that they will be killed.

Yep…not every Hungarian, but my god…they are the majority. For a lot of reasons….the slight majority is morally corrupt. My Hungarian wife tells me so. I agree.

Latefor, why do you support an illiberal, corrupt, xenophobic, Putin like regime, called Fidesz Hungary?

olga
Guest

@exTor from presentTor

re: ……” he did not state that each and every Magyar incorporates those negatives, he merely implied that they are pervasive, meaning widespread, not total.”

Maybe Trump could relate to this line of reasoning but I sure can’t – in my Toronto world, you do not make generalizations about a group of people unless you are a racist, but then again I live in the West end of the city so perhaps East of Yonge St. the rules are different 🙂

exTor
Guest
My entire life was west of Yonge Street, olga. I am uncertain as to your point, which may be directed at me or at Mike Balint. I rather like your “East of Yonge” reference. Quite smart, actually. I believe that you misunderstand my point. Perhaps ‘pervasive’ is causing a problem for you. Latefor (and perhaps you by extension, olga) internalizes criticism of Viktor Orbán and others (such as the foul scumbags of Jobbik) as criticism of Hungary as an entirety. There is an intellectual disconnect at play with that equation. Criticism of a certain aspect within a nation is not tantamount to a condemnation of an entire population. If that is what you imply, then you need to evince more argumentative [read: political] sophistication. Hungary is a country where racism is pervasive. Not everybody, to be sure, is antiRoma and antiJew, however the two antis are culturally embedded. Just yesterday I remet a woman I first encountered months ago. At that time I had been bikeriding and she had been dogwalking. An older Magyar, a male, joined us. At some point he started talking negatively about Jews. There had been no appropriate link, the old Magyar just inserted Jews negatively… Read more »
olga
Guest
@exTor I am not that familiar with this website nor with the regular posters , therefore my horror at the paragraph below had nothing to do with Latefor or the Orban government. Moreover, my being Hungarian was irrelevant: “Hungarians appear to be a socially very sick people for the most part, suffering from a kind of chronic mental retardation, sunk in pathetic ignorance and possessed of a deeply ingrained malevolence.” I think that comment is indefensible against any race, religion, nationality etc and cannot be justified in any shape or form. Substitute the word “Hungarians” with any other group of people if you really cannot see how malicious that comment was, pretend you are still living in Toronto amongst decent non-racist people and see the reaction you would get when you uttered those words. While I don’t think the the “message” would meet the definition of Hate Speech from a legal standpoint, it does not make it any less despicable. I agree with your JOBBIK assessment – I would expect a devoted Vona fan to come up with something equally shocking describing either Hungary’s Jewish people or the Roma, but even the hypocrite Vona would probably distance himself from such… Read more »
Guest

@exTor:
Don’t listen to olga – she was a regular contributor on pol.hu where her friend leto (he tried to come on here but was quickly rebuffed) used to scream and still does really crazy homophobic, racist, xenophobic statements – without any word of criticism from her.
That’s why I called her leto’s groupie – I might have used a stronger word …
And she also claimed to be regular reader of HS …
@olga:
please go back to leto’s site – that’s where you belong!

exTor
Guest

http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/05/29/the-last-five-years-of-the-orban-government-fact-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-97843

Thanx for the headsup, wolfi. Leto مؤدّب [letomuaddib] is certainly a highly dubious individual. I addressed the issue of him on May 31st.

Had I seen your post before having replied to olga, I would have written something different. Your characterization of olga apparently belies her professed concern about racism.

We shall see if (or how) olga replies to your post. Throughout my readings of her posts, I was never quite certain whether she was addressing me or Mike Balint. I’m still not sure. We’ll see what comes of my post.

MAGYARKOZÓ

olga
Guest
First of all, I am not going to respond to wolfi. Secondly, I find it a bit disappointing that you would rely on someone else’s assessment of me and somehow you expecedt to read my response to see if I pass some kind of a test – my apologies if that was not your intent. Wolfi is correct about my being a regular on politics.hu until about a couple of months ago, maybe less I walked away in disgust and wondered what the hell I was doing there for the past year or so in that toxic atmosphere. As far as my postings on politics.hu are concerned, I think it is only fair that you ask wolfi to direct you to ONE comment of mine that could be possibly be interpreted as racist. I shall stand behind any and every comment I ever made I never objected to any of your comments and if I did, I would not have given you my email address – it was Mike Balint’s paragraph that I odious and racist, thus I copied and pasted it in my reply to you so there would be no misunderstanding. I once posted on politics that I… Read more »
exTor
Guest

I have read most of olga’s posts to this group and all of her posts with respect to this stream. I have not seen anything that would seem to merit the kinds of antiolga verbiage coming from wolfi and from Havelaar. Both of those must back up their claims against olga. It’s called put up or shut up. You have until July 20th at 6:13 PM to do so. That is HS time.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

olga used to accuse every “libnazi” on pol.hu of being anti-Hungarian while having “pleasant conversations” with the creature leto – who accused Havelaar of being gay, me of being a “German drunkard” and so on …
That’s why we called her a hypocrite or worse.
Do you want me to post some of leto’s comments here – which olga kind of applauded?
And she’s very ignorant, not really interested in what’s going on in today’s Hungary … She would never comment on Fidesz’ manipulations on pol.hu but:

olga is like a vulture, cruising above HS (she used to to that on pol.hu) waiting for anything that could be called anti-Hungarian.

Guest

Re:…’west of Yonge St’…

In consideration of that locale I submit one of the greatest Canadians today who I have seen there many times in Canada and here in the US. Mr. Lightfoot’s songwriting gifts are exemplary.I’d think this song hits home.

exTor
Guest

I was going to say that I cant believe that he’s still alive, however he’s only 11 years my senior. I became aware of him in highschool (Oakwood CI) a half century ago. I like a lot of his songs, however I was never really into his type of music, which is folk. BTW, the YouTube link does not open.

MAGYARKOZÓ

olga
Guest

Great song and a nice guy (I just looked up his age and he is 76) I am more “Rolling Stones” and “Queen” than GL but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy that song I think he is as Canadian as the Beaver. 🙂

Havelaar
Guest

“Unfortunately, they don’t see themselves as the flip side of the Jobbik crowd”???

The Fidesz/Jobbik, anti democratic, homophobic, illiberal, corrupt, racist scum are exactly the same. Start complaining about the majority of Hungarians supporting this.
My wife is Hungarian, of course not every Hungarian is morally corrupt. But hey….. a disgusting amount of Hungarians are.

But…you support them.

exTor
Guest
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/07/15/ignorance-and-prejudice-in-hungary/comment-page-1/#comment-99251 Your discomfort with Mike Balint’s words was mine. I dealt with his verbal inappropriateness in the above. Two problems with Mike’s choice of words: it is way over-the-top in its description, hence can not possibly be true of any group, and it condemns an entire nation, which can not be true of an entire population. http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/07/16/the-better-side-of-hungary-volunteers-take-charge/comment-page-1/#comment-99304 The following day Mike Balint addressed [above] the issue elsewhere, stating that when he “generalize[s] about Hungary and Hungarians” he “always [qualifies his] statements”. My point, then and now, is not to sledgehammer a group, then dance around with qualifications. What is necessary is a more aware, a more sophisticated form of communication. Mike Balint means well, he just needs to do a bit better, in my opinion. I’m not sure of the direction of “pretend you are still living in Toronto amongst decent nonracist people”, olga. Who are you talking to here? If it is Mike Balint, as far as I can tell, he resides (or resided) in Australia, which interestingly is where Latefor [Melanie] resides. Well olga, we may have crossed paths in Toronto West, if not corporeally, then perhaps spiritually. My last decade in TO was in High Park. Before… Read more »
BritinBudapest
Guest

Eva, if I can bo so bold, I have a small challenge for you! In the midst of all the corruption and horrors in Hungary, which I think you shed light in a consistently more perceptive way than anyone else, there are real seeds of positive action. I was at Bp Gay Pride – there were a lot of people and a lot of corporate and diplomatic support (from the embassies). The organisers must have negotiated hard to get the event to take place at all, not least given the ridiculous numbers of riot police herding rainbows. Or the current extraordinary response of Hungarians and foreigners working together to help the refugees. So I wonder if you could bring your insight to some of these more ‘good news’ stories, however marginal or small they are at the moment. Partly what Hungary misses is hope for change and a belief that Hungarians can make change happen.

Live long and prosper
Guest
I was heartened by the charitable response of local people to the migrants who have fled their homes for a better life. There has been an outpouring of generosity at the train stations where concerned Hungarians have been handing out water, food, toys, nappies, etc.. On fb I posted that my faith had been restored in Hungarians. Yesterday a friend of mine who has been part of this spontaneous outreach witnessed the MAV security and the police harassing a woman who was giving out items to the needy. The reason? She was breaking the law because she was not part of a ‘caritive organisation’. (Meanwhile the Catholic Church is absent and sucking up to the government.) WTF is wrong with these people – I mean the MAV security and the police? And how can there be a law against giving? I was warned against offering these poor refugees the chance to bathe and wash their clothes at my house – because if they don’t have the ‘right papers’ (a minefield to obtain) I could be prosecuted for people trafficking. What sort of idiotic people create these laws and what sort of ignorant bigots enforce them? I read the admittedly emotional… Read more »
Guest

@Latefor
Petofi and Mike Balint should be allowed as much free speech when talking about Hungarians as some Hungarians are allowed when talking about Gypsies and Jews.

petofi
Guest

@ Jean P

Yours is the perfect response of the recalcitrant anti-semite. In fact, the logic of your stance is this: ‘let the jews rant and holler, we will continue our diatribe nonetheless’.

Whereas, Balint and I are ‘reacting’…you maintain the age-old right to continue with your ingrained anti-semitism.

petofi
Guest

I might add that poor soppy latefor cannot distinguish between defending vigorously–which is what Balint and I do–and attacking without reason…which is the modus operandi of anti-semites.

Latefor
Guest

@Petofi – “latefor cannot distinguish between defending vigorously–which is what Balint and I do–and attacking without reason…which is the modus operandi of anti-semites.”

I guess we all have our breaking point, which is the aim of the provoking anti-Hungarians. To PROVOKE and to see how far they can push the unsuspecting “morons” . . .when are they going to break . . .when are they going to react mindlessly. In my case: NO CIGAR, Petofi dearest! 🙂

Member
I would like to add my point of view here, I am half Hungarian, speak, read and write Hungarian and lived in Hungary until I was 13 years old. I have hundreds of family members there and friends as well. My observation is this….People in Hungary as well as Hungarians elsewhere are out of control with the hatred, the lies the government is feeding them on a daily basis is starting to take hold. They have an entirely distorted view as to what is happening in reality in their own country. Yes, there are a lot of Fidesz followers, but it is not just those who believe all the nonsense. They are in fact being told that they must stand up for their homeland against the invaders (muslims and africans) This to a Hungarian means they must go after the refugees, and any foreigners they come in contact with. They truly believe that if you have an ounce of humanity for the refugees, you are a socialist and therefore the enemy. It is very difficult at times not to throw up my hands and feel the same as Mike Balint, that this way of thinking must be a trait of… Read more »
BritinBudapest
Guest

Liz – I would say your experience is pretty similar to mine – you expressed it really well. The only point I would add, is that I don’t think this is unique to Hungary – take a long hard look at some of the politics in Australia, Poland, Denmark, parts of the US, parts of the UK, parts of Canada – what worries me is that Hungary is actually ahead in this propagation of hatred, and is in step with international trends. I appreciate Orban is politically unacceptable in many places, but I suspect that in other places he is seen as a successful politician, and someone to emulate.

iii222
Guest

Very well done, Liz!

exTor
Guest

If you lived the first 13 years of your life in Hungary, Liz Aucoin, then you are 100% Hungarian, regardless of the backgrounds of your parents, most other factors notwithstanding.

If you had been born outside of Hungary, however, and only one parent were from Hungary, only then would you be half-Hungarian.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Webber
Guest

People are, I think, generally what/who they say they are.
You say that since Liz Aucoin lived in Hungary for 13 years, and speaks Hungarian, she is 100% Hungarian.
Why?
It’s possible that her father was Spanish, and she spent every summer vacation over those 13 years in Madrid, and has lived for the past 33 years in Barcelona. Or perhaps her mother was Senegalese, and she has spent the past 47 years in Dakar…
Only Liz Aucoin can know.
Whatever the case, if she says she feels half Hungarian, then I see no reason to doubt she is half Hungarian.

exTor
Guest
I can only go by what people say about themselves, Webber. Liz Aucoin lived the first 13 years of her life in Hungary. That makes her purely and simply 100% Hungarian, regardless of the backgrounds of her parents. Once she started living outside of Hungary, in Liz Aucoin’s case: in Canada, my presumption is that her mindset started orienting elsewhere, toward her new existence. She became more and more Canadian. You didn’t say anything new, Webber. People are who they say they are. As for members of Hungary’s prime demographic (white Christian Magyars) asking your kids how they feel, I wouldn’t read too much into it. People are curious. I get asked similar questions. I respond that because of personal circumstances I now live in Hungary and that, all things considered and the current government notwithstanding, I like living in Hungary. Liz Aucoin’s point about herself (during her first 13 years, which were spent in Hungary) was that she is half Hungarian. My presumption is that she is making some sort of parental distinction, namely that one parent was not born in Hungary, which I say is irrelevant. Generally speaking, if you start your life living in just one country,… Read more »
exTor
Guest

Addendum to my previous post.

Both my parents were 100% Hungarians. I was born in England, but grew up in Canada. That makes me 100% Canadian. In my case, and in most cases, the environment determines the characterization.

At the time of your departure, Liz Aucoin, you were 100% Hungarian. Given that the preponderance of your life has been spent in Canada, I would say that you are mostly (maybe even 100%) Canadian now.

I’d be curious as to how Éva views herself.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

@Petofi
I am sorry that my comment was formulated so clumsily that you can understand it that way.

exTor
Guest

When I read petofi’s what I felt to be an over-the-top reaction to Jean P, I was stunned, for I had never known her to manifest antisemitism, so I had a looksee at some of her earlier responses. They were clean.

I can sort of see where petofi is coming from, however given Jean P’s history, I think that he was overreacting somewhat.

Some might construe Jean P’s words as ironic, but I think that she was right: she was a bit verbally clumsy here.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Pitypalaty
Guest

Not to worry Petofi rave regularly expressed his opinion about the gypsies the same way exactly just like many Hungarians.

petofi
Guest

Criticism does not necessarily mean hate.
My favorite person in all Hungary is Bodi Margot–you have to love how she speaks to her young daughter on her cooking show–and she’s a gypsy.

Pitypalaty
Guest

Yes. Seinfeld makes great fun of the Jews too, but I do not think you would mistake an anti-Semite with Larry David either.

olga
Guest

I agree with you regarding “Petofi and Mike Balint should be allowed as much free speech when talking about Hungarians as some Hungarians are allowed when talking about Gypsies and Jews.”

However, here is my objection .: Please use 5 adjectives describing the people who use derogatory words against Hungary’s minorities.

As long as people like Balint tand Petofi are willing to see themselves described with those adjectives, then there is no problem with “free speech”

Unfortunately, they don’t see themselves as the flip side of the JOBBIK crowd, they see themselves as some kind of champions of human rights and decency and that’s when so called free speech becomes problematic whether it’s against Hungarians, Mexicans of Martians.

central
Guest

Interesting events in the Carpathian region of Ukraine.

Russia and Hungary are likely working together to cut up Ukraine — Orban would be crowned a king if he could obtain a square inch of the old kingdom and this would certainly serve Russia, Orban being a Putin puppet anyway.

http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.gr/2015/07/why-mukachevo-may-shake-foundations-of.html?m=1

exTor
Guest

I know that your articles can be emended/amended, Éva, at least before the 120-hour response period elapses. Can you also remove certain posts?

Specifically, I’m thinking of you deepsixing the 5:21 AM post by Giorgio Magyaroni, who seems to have snuck back onto the subscriber list.

MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest

There is no need to wear a hairshirt, Éva. It is a mistake not dumping that guy. It would only embolden Giorgio Magyaroni to keep pulling his crap.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

Probably no one would be angry if that post by “makkaroni” (that’s what I call him …) would be deleted – on the other hand it goes to show how stupid the “Defenders of Hungary” – or rather Orbán and Fidesz) are and I really had a good laugh.

I have a similar reaction when looking at the comments on pol.hu – I’ve often wondered:

Does Fidesz really have not one single person which
– can write lucid English
– defend its policies
– refrain from using obscenities
– is willing to comment on HS or pol.hu or any other of the few critical sites?

Guest

@Giorgio Magyaroni
July 16, 2015 at 5:21 am

In Australia, we have a very apt descriptor for people of your ilk: arseholes incorporated.

Guest

Dear Éva

This post (Mike Balint, July 16, 2015 at 7:47 am) – which was in response to Giorgio Magyaroni, whose posts have since been wiped, thankfully – should have been taken out along with Magyaroni’s, as stand-alone it is a complete non sequitur.

Would therefore greatly appreciate if you could delete it along with this one.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Mike

gr1962
Guest

Latefor and Jean P. have got good souls and good intentions.

Mike Balint and Petofi are pragmatic observers. They describe the Hungarian scene very accurately and bluntly. It should resonate with everybody.

We should analyze together with all of them what the reality is.

We should come to an agreement with all of them to end all lies and hypocrisy.

I would recommend all of them to read Geza Vermes and Ferenc Deak to understand all historical lies, and the Christian and Hungarian stories.

Guest

Re: ‘…..what the reality is’

I’d say like all of us petofi and MB are part of that ‘Rashomon’ effect where you can have an event but the reaction to the evident is predicated on where you are sitting watching the action. It looks to be an understatement that they’ve had it. Tough to see a country and people perhaps slipping into an abyss.

You know a ‘democracy’ belongs to a people. This cannot be said of Hungary today. And how Hungary has been reacting to the refugee issue is far from how the attitude was in those very early days of Istvan. He indeed wanted settlers and ‘kulfoldi’ incorporated into the new lands since ‘ a monoglot country lacking a diversity of customs is weak and likely to fall’. That’s a prescient Istvan. No fear for him when it came to foreigners.

Poor Istvan. He’s getting used. Oh they ‘follow’ him but only those portions that suit the power cohort.

Guest

Re: “Russia and Hungary are likely working together to cut up Ukraine….”

Yes with everything going on there’s still time probably to get that in the gulyas pot.

And on that I ‘d suggest a thing about Putin courtesy from my Irish father-in-law who knew there are some who are always up to some no good: ‘watch that man he’d still the eyes outta yer head if you ain’t looking’ …;-)…The West looks to be on ‘no-doze’ pills for a bit.

buddy
Guest

Latefor: “Anyway, most Hungarians adore Orban.”

No, this is NOT TRUE. It’s not even remotely true.

In fact, pretty much everyone I know either has a deep hatred for him, or refuses to talk about politics. I don’t know anyone who “adores” Orbán, except for my 84-year-old aunt.

I think if you lived in Hungary, you would know this! But I believe you live in another country.

Guest

I don’t think either that most of Hungarians adore Orban. At least not in my circle. Instead they see him as a laughable pocket dictator including me. It is just fortunate that Hungary is such an insignificant nation, so he is just an insignificant pain in the …

Member

Eva, please pull the plug on “Giorgio Magyaroni” and erase the traces. It just serves to repel decent, thinking people from your wonderful and extremely important and informative blog to keep seeing such crude, incoherent rants. The planet is full of borderline personalities with an internet connection. If you give them all a graffiti board on which to act out, constructive signal and sense will fall victim to malign nonsense and noise. I know you are allowing it out of high-mindedness, a desire to be fair and open, unlike decency’s adversaries in Hungary and abroad, but the Giorgio-Magyaronis of this world are in endless supply, and your blog and time (and your readers’ time) is finite.

Member

Many thanks, dear Eva. As you see, for example below, the intrusion of these rants is not inspiring the best from your regulars either. In the earlier days of the Internet, it was called ““flaming,” and, like a forest-fire, it just spreads if not stamped out by the moderator (though the regulars could exercise some restraint too, instead of responding in kind…).

Guest

Now compare the last comments of latefor with the heartfelt frustration of Liz Aucoin and you see who really knows about what’s going on in Hungary – and cares about the people living in Hungary …

Thank you, Liz!

It seems that I’m extremely lucky to have found a Hungarian woman who shares these sentiments and has quite clear words to say about Orbán and his minions (which I won’t repeat here – I had to look them up in my dictionary of Hungarian slang …)!

PS and totally OT:

It’s so hot outside here near the Balaton that we’re staying in our air conditioned living room all day – going out only when it’s necessary.
She’s just started reading the works of Kurt Vonnegut on her kindle and enjoys them very much – Sirens of Titan is next.

Guest

Re:
“She’s just started reading the works of Kurt Vonnegut on her kindle and enjoys them very much – Sirens of Titan is next”

That’s great! If not yet Slaughterhouse 5 should get a good read…but you probably know that…;-)…

spectator
Guest
Here we came..! Being Hungarians (some of us lucky enough with her only 50% share 😉 ) and is this really the “most important thing” in our life? Do we really must have the stigma of “Orbanism” above all? Come on, people! We are “Human Beings” – first and foremost, at least outside of the direct influence of Orbán and his ‘retarded’ entourage – certainly! Sometimes even the “Homo Sapiens” seem to fit – but this is definitely outside of the chauvinist, xenophobe, homophobe, fundamentalist and greedy bastards who driving the country to the edge of the all the “Human” values, while robbing it dry! No, now we no longer have the excuse that we don’t know, what’s going on, not if we intended to belong to the above mentioned species: it is clear, people, and just as well if we stop pretending any longer! Likewise, we should stop using euphemism, call things-, events- and yes, persons what they really are, instead the required niceties..! Yes, the majority of Hungarians ignorant, unfortunately! You want a proof? They voted these thieves into power and keeping them still there, against reason! If it isn’t ignorance, then there isn’t such thing! One must… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

I’m about to purchase a kindle book on Amazon.com/kindle – the title:
“The Second Term of Victor Orban – Beyond Prejudice and Enthusiasm” by John O’Sullivan
I look forward to get some more info.

Guest

You know on reading Liz Aucoin’s post she could also be describing things going on to Hungary’s east in Vlad’s land. Not sure if it was planned but the Russian infection has also travelled west and in a virulent way.

With Vlad and Vic it seems very apparent if you are not with them you are against them. Those fellows appear to be a marvelous tag team over there in those parts. Looks like a Central European plague is in effect.

Latefor
Guest

Unbelievable! This morning I’ve received an email from Amazon Marketing Services to advertise my kindle book on Kindle readers. It DID NOT ALLOW me to advertise! I looked at “KDP – Creative Acceptance Policies” and this is what I’ve found:

There are several customer experience sensitive categories that are NOT appropriate for the general audience. The following categories maybe restricted from the homepage and Kindle E-reader placement:
* Non-fiction self-help books relating to dating and relationship
* Non-fiction books that allude to sensitive topics (e.G. bad credit or bankruptcy)
* Non-fiction self-help books that refer to topics of grief, morning and loss.
* Religious or spiritual content
* Books about political parties, issues and related content.

How about that? So what is left for us to write about? Erotica and Porn is NOT excluded!
Was my PC hacked or what?? This can NOT be for real! Should I cut my wrists or what?

I’d love to hear your opinion before I start my 25 pages of Erotica, describing passionate sex scenes for $1.99 and spread it all over the kindle devices. 🙂

spectator
Guest
Oh, but there is a lots of potential in those topics too! Really! You may start softly, like: “Kissing Viktor” or “Getting a Hand-Kiss Form a Real Life-Sucker” The story of a promising young man once receiving a kiss on his hand from a little old lady, who infected him with the fatal “Orange Fever”, changing his life forever. Since then the once promising young man became a real monster, sucking the life from a whole country, while distributing the disease, starting it on the very same way: kissing the hands of little old ladies… When horror meets reality – this really is happening! Or something more juicy, like: “How to Screw a Whole Country – and enjoy every minute of it!” The story of great hypnotist who using mind altering techniques to enslave millions of people and abuse them every which way, fulfilling his perverted dream, as a “Greatest Dominator Ever”. While a handful of the people recognise the manipulations and manages to keep their eyes open, the spell over the majority is so powerful, that they ‘re unable to awaken them and save them from being sodomised… A great suspense theme: do they manage to castrate the magician,… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

Spectator -“Btw, I don’t think that what have been hacked was your computer – it was you. It must be the “Orange Fever Virus”, so you better start sanitising, before all your System became totally garbled by it ”

I’m not laughing! Also, I’ve just posted a photo of the “hacking” (not the porn, do NOT get excited!) on my FB page. (I have better shots and many others) and I will use them if I have to. Also, I’m asking the Robin Hood of hackers out there to protect me.

Latefor
Guest

Just for the record: a few minutes after my last post, my Facebook page was flooded with porn. My spirit is broken. 🙁

Guest

I don’t think anyone here is interested in your little problems …
Why don’t you ask someone like Orbán whom you adore (like most Hungarians – at least in your opinion …) and who made this relevant comment where he likened Hungary’s economic and social system to pornography …

Guest

Not too much OT:
“The Donald” Trump, campaigning to be the GOP’s Presidential candidate, wants to build a wall between the USA and Mexico:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-on-the-us-mexico-border-building-a-wall-is-easy/2015/07/16/9a619668-2b0c-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html?tid=HP_more?tid=HP_more
“Building a wall is easy, and it can be done inexpensively,” he said Thursday in an interview with The Washington Post. “It’s not even a difficult project if you know what you’re doing. And no one knows what they’re doing like I do.”
I shudder to think that someone like this crazy guy might become the next POTUS …

Ron
Guest

What is he talking about? There is a fence between the USA and Mexico? And it does not help at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier

Guest

You know I have to say that when we look here at the lineup of potential POTUS’ it just looks like that they aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed. Well for me anyway. Might be better now to simply give a test or something to better gauge the intellectual and communication abilities of those who would normally answer help-wanted ads.

Trumpy I think is just jawing to get so – called ‘share of voice’ and snagging ‘minds’ no doubt. We’ll see how far that horse runs. Have to say though if you ask him where say Magyarorszag is well….Americans frankly aren’t up to speed in that neck’o’ the woods…an alien land an alien land….;-)…..

iii222
Guest

Liz Aucoin created a comprehensive list of the errors, failures of the Hungarians.

I have little to add.

Well done, LIz, done withour anger and malice, but true.

I am waiting for the day when all lies die in Hungary.

KidOf1956
Guest

Latefor (Melanie) and Jean P. should read the speeches of Deak.
Petofi, Mike, Tappanch and I can not imitate even 10% of the critique of Deak on the Hungarian past and traditions.
Orban would be swept in the garbage can of Hungary by Deak.
Latefor and Jean P are the decent people but lack the basic education in Hungarian history, just like all of the supporters of the evil dictators of Hungary at any given times.

Latefor
Guest

Is there a book you could recommend re: Deak?

KidOf1956
Guest

Bela Kiraly: Ferenc Deak

Deak speeches: http://mek.oszk.hu/02200/02213/

Melanie, you will profit from these books.

It should be compulsory to study the Deak policy, which created the greatest glory for Hungary.

After that, no Orban like liar could fool the Hungarians again.

exTor
Guest
This stream has become, sad to say, a real dog’s breakfast, a term most Brits would appreciate. I have to credit Latefor (primarily) for that DB. Latefor, I understand that you, in your own special way, want the best for Hungary, as do most of the respondents to this website, however you are not doing yourself (and us, by extension) any favors with your behaviors. I believe that many (perhaps most) would label your Amazon excursion as ROT [really offtopic]. Nobody at Hungarian Spectrum needs to know about your activities in the selfpublishing world. Nobody at HS needs to know that you have supposedly been hacked and nobody at HS needs to know that you perhaps were flooded with porn. According to the Terms and Conditions strictures of Hungarian Spectrum, one can not use the website “for the purpose of advertising [or] promoting … any goods”. Strictly speaking, Éva could legitimately bounce you for pushing your book on this website, as you have done many times. I think Éva keeps you around for comic relief. I believe that many do not take you seriously as a respondent, Latefor. Your posts seem reactive, unmeasured. They lack the thoughtfulness that some of… Read more »
Zorgas
Guest

So many Hungarians are smart and caring, and at times have basked in the glory of their multi-cultural society in which there was a diversity of ethnicities and religions. Hungarians passionately want to believe that they are doing what is best. It’s hard to consider the current xenophobia and narrowmindedness as a Hungarian trait. However, it is a human trait that in times of crisis people stick with the devil they know. People don’t change leaders during a war.

Like other populist leadership interested solely in preserving its own hold power, the regime creates a perpetual war with an ever growing cast of enemies — Brussels, intellectuals, refugees, immigrants, the West, the neighboring countries, international companies, etc.

Were the war to end and the hatred to subside, the inner desire to do good and be respected might again surface — which would bring about change. And for a leadership intent on holding onto power…. change is not good.

Latefor
Guest

“ExTortion said: – I believe that many (perhaps most) would label your Amazon excursion as ROT [really offtopic]. Nobody at Hungarian Spectrum needs to know about your activities in the selfpublishing world. Nobody at HS needs to know that you have supposedly been hacked and nobody at HS needs to know that you perhaps were flooded with porn.”

No, I’ve never believed for one second that the commentators of the Hungarian Spectrum would be interested about my hacking experiences. My post was addressed to the READERs of the H.S. as a WARNING. Learn from my experiences!
For “comic relief”:
I’m commenting in my capacity as a “genetically inferior moron” from a Hungarian peasant background, not as a notable “intellectual” like yourself, therefore I cannot act something I’m not. BUT, believe it or not – even people like us – we like to have our say. If we cannot contribute on this site, we’ll find another and life goes on. RELAX!

My recently released book is available on Amazon.com/kindle, title:
“The Adventures of Electra Sittie 2025” 🙂

P.S. Apart from tolerating serious bullying, I believe I’ve worked very hard for this ad opportunity 🙂

exTor
Guest

Cute Melanie. … \–: …
I think you need a little exTor shun.

MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest

“… tolerating serious bullying …”

The implication here, if I read you correctly, Latefor, for you have not spelled out the manner of bullying to which you have been subjected, is that those Hungarian Spectrum posters who are antiLatefor are picking on you, obviously without provocation.

That may well be. You need to detail your proof. Make certain to include the instances where you have flogged your ‘magnum opus’ on the webpages of this forum and the harmful-to-you reactions to those floggings.

Portraying you as antisemitic was unacceptable, Melanie.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest
To exTor: Sorry about that link. Got messed up along the way. For those who don’t know the song they can go to youtube and simply pick it up. Yes he’s been around for quite a while. Almost died a few years ago. Guess he can’t stop dong what he does best…sing as a modern day minstrel. He also has another song which is pretty apt today called…’Don Quixote’. Looks like we all chase after ‘windmills’ in our wanderings and our efforts to make some order of our tumultuous world today. To olga: Glad you liked it. I thought Mr.Lightfoot was born in Canada, wasn’t he? Should make him a Canadian like the “Beave’ who is a down home American boy..;-)….Now if Beaver was round now he’d have to agree with most of us that things really are not going er ‘too too swell’……;-)…. And speaking of music I wonder if Viktor is a say a melodic Beatles guy or smokin’ Stones fellow or who knows maybe an Antal Dorati or Bartok type. You think he’s an oldie fellow with Illes and Omega???? By their attachment to music we can learn much about their leaders. I figure he’d go for… Read more »
spectator
Guest

” Music to Entertain the Kings of Hungary in the Middle Ages”. I’d think he’d go for that kind of ‘oldie’ stuff.

No way!
It would require a certain level of literacy, where is none present. So, the Doráti – Bartók question is pointless for the same reason.

You can have some insight though, regarding his taste, like here:

Actually a few years back I have read/heard in some interview that his all times favourite was the “Hotel California” from Eagles..! From here on you can figure out the rest..!
(By the other hand once I spent some time in a pub where he was present while the whole time we listened – and sang along – the Tokyo concert of Scorpions, but it could be some mistake from his part. A quarter of a century went by since.)

For your information Illés and Omega was just as different once than the Beatles and the Stones, so, you didn’t mixed them at all at the time. 🙂

Latefor
Guest

Re: Orban video
Lovely! This reminded me of my childhood. Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!

Guest

Spec…you probably know the big fella better than me having more experience with him! Now I know why I don’t have such say a great disposition toward him..Eagles? Hotel California? I’d rather listen to an interminably off-key Bocelli than that tripe….;-)…Too commercialized work for me. Too formulaic just like you know who.

As far as Dorati et al, you think he understands the great ‘Hungarian March??’…;-)….Let me go further. Not say ‘understands’ but how it ‘feels’? Metaphorically, it seems the Magyar state is seriously ‘out of tune’. Orban from the looks of it likes melody but more to the point fails with counterpoint and harmony. He is a very bad conductor. He could learn a bit say from a Solti who cajoles, pleads, suggests, and demands excellence in his orchestral players to give the greatest performance they can in extolling the virtues of the Magyar nation. But he listens to the Eagles…

olga
Guest

I am now an “expert” on GL because when I looked up his age subsequent to your posting, I also read his bio on the Internet

He was born in Orillia and there are allegations of “demons” in his life which I always interpret as drugs and/or alcohol but of course I maybe jumping to an unfair and wrong conclusion. The salient point is that “the demons” are behind him – he sounds like a really nice person who deserved and deserves his success.

He also has 4 ex-wives and 6 kids so obviously he was busy with other activities than music. 🙂

BTW , I’ve seen “Queen Live in Budapest” – I believe it was on Apple TV. I wish i could have seen the ban live but that never happened. Hungarian Rhapsody is my ringtone on my IPhone – perhaps more info than you needed

I must listen to “‘Music to Entertain the Kings of Hungary in the Middle Ages” before I can weigh in on Viktor’s taste in music 🙂 I grew up with Kalman music courtesy of my Mom and paternal grand-mother.

wpDiscuz