Immigration as a curse in Hungarian history?

A couple of days ago I read an article in Gondola.hu, a right-wing internet publication, with an intriguing title: “The left-liberals’ fate is never to govern.” Well, that’s quite a tease. No liberal or socialist party, the argument went, will ever be allowed to govern the country because they are enemies of the nation. They would allow immigrants to settle in Hungary “when all through history great influxes of immigrants resulted in great harm.” The author added that “the left-liberals knowingly misinterpret the admonitions of St. Stephen to his son and parrot the lie that the presence of immigrants strengthens the country. Apparently they think that the greater their number the better.” This nonsense was written by a man with a law degree who is currently heading one of the new government offices created between 2010 and 2014.

Although in the past there have been scholarly debates about the proper translation of an important sentence in St. Stephen’s Admonitions to his son, Prince Imre, ordinary mortals accepted the translation of the crucial sentence in which Stephen urges his son to attract foreigners and guests (“adventicii” and “hospitis”) “because a country using only one language and having only one custom is weak and frail” (Nam unius lingue uniusque moris regnum inbecille et fragile est). It is this translation that is now, in the middle of the debate on immigration, being questioned in the mostly right-wing press. One such article bears the title: “Saint Stephen, the neo-liberal,” making fun of people who “misinterpret” the saintly king’s words. The crucial word is “regnum,” which indeed can mean either royal power or kingdom/realm. Surely, the proper translation of this word ought to be a scholarly question, not a political one. The important historical fact is that Hungarian kings throughout the country’s history encouraged immigration to the great benefit of all.

The earliest western “hospitis” came from Northern France (Walloons), Lorraine, and Lombardy, followed by Germans in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries from Bavaria, Swabia, and Saxony. By the thirteenth century even foreign artisans and peasants were called “guests.” They came with promises of privileges, including reduced taxes, limited self-government, their own judges, etc. These people greatly accelerated the formation of Hungarian towns and cities, which lagged behind the large cities of Western Europe. The Saxons settled in Transylvania and in Szepesség (Spiš region of Northern Slovakia) during the reign of Géza II (1130-1162). Esztergom and Székesfehérvár were settled by Italian, Walloon, and French immigrants. They were the first truly western-style Hungarian cities, even if on a small scale.

During the Mongol invasion of Hungary in 1241 most of the important cities, including Esztergom, Buda, and Pest, were pretty well razed. Béla IV (1206-1270) is often called the “second founder of the state” because he managed to rebuild a devastated country. Once again foreign settlers were invited to aid in the reconstruction work. This time from the Czech lands, Moravia, and Germany. He also asked the Cumans, who had fled from the Mongols, to return. And he supported the immigration of Romanians to Transylvania. Late Hungarian medieval towns were largely German-speaking, but slowly assimilation had started to take hold, only to be interrupted by the Turkish invasion of Hungary in the sixteenth century.

After most of the Hungarian territories were freed from Turkish occupation, the necessity of settling new immigrants from the west became an issue. Nationalist Hungarians today like to portray this large-scale immigration as the attempt of a “foreign” and anti-Hungarian king to undermine the power of Hungarians in their own country. But history tells a different story. It was the 1722-23 Diet of the Hungarian nobility that in fact urged the king to act in order to revive the country’s economic life.

Hajós in Bács-Kiskun County settled by Germans in 1722

Hajós in Bács-Kiskun County settled by Germans in 1722

Even before that date, between 1689 and 1740, returning landlords decided on their own to send agents to various parts of Germany to initiate “private” immigration by recruiting farmers/settlers to till their land. These landlords were mostly Catholics, and therefore they preferred to recruit in areas of Catholic Germany. The exception was the group of German settlers from Hessen who settled in Tolna County around the village of Gyönk. They came during 1722-23.

There was another wave of immigrants during the second half of the reign of Maria Theresa. She offered settlers generous benefits, including financial assistance to build their houses. After the Seven Years’ War the number of settlers multiplied, coming especially from Alsace Lorraine, Baden, Luxembourg, and Rheinland-Pfalz. These so-called Theresian immigrants settled along the country’s southern borders in an area that belongs to Serbia today. The third wave of immigrants came after 1782, during the reign of Joseph II, from Pfalz, Saarland, the areas surrounding Frankfurt and Mainz, Hessen, and Württenberg. Without these German settlers, a Hungarian economic recovery would have been unimaginable.

And I haven’t even touched on the Jewish immigration to Hungary. Although Jews have lived in the country for the last thousand years, if not longer, it was only in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries that their numbers swelled. In 1784 they constituted only 1.3% of the population; by 1910, 5.0%. Their story certainly deserves a separate post. Here only briefly: these immigrants came both from the west (Czech lands and Moravia) and from the northeast (Galicia). The immigration from the Czech lands and Moravia was prompted by the limits imposed on the number of Jews by Charles VI (1711-1740). Large numbers of Jews arrived from Galicia between 1830 and 1870 because of the extreme poverty of the region and because of the peasant rebellion of 1846, known as the Great Slaughter.

By 1910 citizens whose first language was German constituted over 10% of Hungary’s population, while 5% of the population declared themselves to be Jewish “izraelita vallású/religion.” Both groups made enormous contributions to the modernization of Hungary and to its scientific and artistic accomplishments. Hungarians should remember this when they want to close the doors to newcomers.

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Minusio
Guest

Within the context of Jews settling in Hungary and particularly in Budapest, I highly recommend: Julia Richers, Jüdische Budapest. Kulturelle Topographien einer Stadtgemeinde im 19. Jahrhundert. Böhlau 2009.

exTor
Guest

Ferenc Puskás came from a Swabian background. His father had the family’s name Hungarianized before WW2. By the time Puskás became famous, it was easy for Magyars to see another Magyar, for they were looking at a white man.

Where I lift weights in Csepel there are many soccer fields nearby. Sometimes I see a tall black kid, the only nonwhite, practicing with the others of his age. I dont know how good he is, but I can imagine him playing for Hungary in the future. And I wonder if he will be accepted, even if he has a Hungarianized family name.

From Puskás to a nonwhite kid, that’s a big step for a little country that is moving into insularity. With Fidesz at the helm, the transition will be hard.

MAGYARKOZÓ

pongracs
Guest

Black people are already competing for Hungary at a high level:

http://www.eurovision.tv/page/history/year/participant-profile/?song=31243

Csaba K. Zoltani
Guest

Indeed, in its eleven hundred years of history, subsequent to invasions and destruction, Hungary has welcomed and assimilated a large number of diverse immigrants looking for a better life. However, statements like “Bela IV (1206-1270) …. supported the immigration of Romanians to Transylvania.” needs clarification. Romania was invented only in the nineteenth century, there is no record of King Bela IV supporting the immigration of non-existent people. At best, during his time from the east and south of the Carpathians Wallachians and other ethnic groups, searching for a better life, migrated west entering and settling in the Kingdom of Hungary.

spectator
Guest

@Csaba K.Z – Give it a ty, please, and look up definitions and rules regarding noun, adverb and adjective in your spare time, and read that sentence again!
Thank you, in advance!

Guest
Re: “From Puskás to a nonwhite kid, that’s a big step for a little country that is moving into insularity. With Fidesz at the helm, the transition will be hard” I agree. Maybe perhaps not even in your lifetime? At this point It would appear that African players in the past few years have shown their talents on the international stage. More and more they are now being picked up by some of the finest clubs and getting paid very very well. It remains to be seen if they can settle in Hungary and play say in and day out for clubs. Could be like a snowball going through hell. But I’d think that would only occur if say the country’s overall football association strives for it. Not sure about the odds of that right now though and I leave it to those more intimately in touch with the goings on in that group. And by the way can anybody note what would likely happen if Hungary plays an Israeli team??? Just asking. Behavior there may give an indication where future developments in international football are going with Hungary. Past behavior is not too encouraging. And as far as qualifying… Read more »
Rikard
Guest

Re: “The important historical fact is that Hungarian kings throughout the country’s history encouraged immigration to the great benefit of all”

I’d think those kings were the brightest of the Magyar bright. Is it any wonder that the seat of the historical royal kings was built at the Danube bend? The realm there in that region showed that the kings indeed had to pay attention to immigration and migratory patterns since it was there that they saw firsthand the clashes with Slavs and Germanic tribes and other nomadic peoples that were affecting the kingdom.

Really the Danube bend there acted as a corridor shuttling people’s constantly east and west from German areas through to the Balkans. If Hungary was to preserve and develop itself under the circumstances she certainly had to apprise herself of how to deal with the question of the migration of various peoples and the problems and benefits of immigration is a part of that. The kings had a challenging problem on their royal plates.

tappanch
Guest

Re: Jewish population increase in the 19th century.

1890: 4.67%, 1900: 4.94%, 1910: 4.99%.

Child mortality has fallen earlier among the Jewish population than among the Christians, while high birth rate was still the custom of the day, this explains the growing percentage, not [immigration-emigration] after 1867. (1. US immigration records for 1881-1912 show that 8.78% of the immigrants from Austria-Hungary were Jewish. 2. The high birth rate collapsed in the 20th century.)

Other data:

In the 1890 Hungarian census, 64.0% of the Jewish population were counted as ethnic Hungarian by mother tongue [1910: 75.7%], 33.1% as German (mainly Yiddish speakers), 1.9% as Slovak, 0.8% as Romanian and 0.2% as Ruthenian.

According to the 1910 census, 6.94% of the Hungarians [by mother tongue] and 11.63% of the Germans [Yiddish was included in the German column] were Jewish in Hungary [without Croatia].

Without counting the Hungarian-speaking Jewish population, the 54.45% Hungarian majority of Hungary would have been reduced to 50.67%. Similarly, the 10.42% ethnic German population would have amounted to 9.21%.

ambator
Guest
Of course it is absolute nonsense to say that Hungary has always been an insular white nation and country, although there has always been some political aggravation that had an interest in propagating that idea. It was always a lie. However, Orban and company’s short memory and experience seem to square with that concept. But even that is false! Since the war there had been several waves of immigration. In fact, the immigration never stopped. In the late forties there was a Greek wave of immigration following the civil war there. In the early fifties the refugees and orphans of the Korean war arrived. In the sixties and early seventies Hungary was a training ground and resting place for a lot of the Viet Nam war refugees. And in the nineties tens of thousands of the Yugoslav conflagration found refuge in Hungary. And those were only the organized and planned immigration programs. Besides and independent of those, Hungary was a staging ground of the world’s communist movements from everywhere, supporting the Chilean resisters and serving as a home land for a decade for Carlos the Jackal, just to mention a few. The Orban government is lying through their teeth, from… Read more »
exTor
Guest
Of course the reality of Hungary is that people have moved through and into the country for centuries. The stayers have been absorbed and they are the new Magyars. One would be hard put to find a real [igazi] Magyar (one who looks like someone who could have come from the southern Urals) in Hungary now. My background includes Slovak and German, hence I am taller than most Magyars. Hungary may well have accepted Koreans and Vietnamese, and later Chinese, however these people are not much different (with respect to skin color) than the whites who populate Hungary. This time it’s different. While it’s easy to dislike/hate someone who is noticeably different, if one is so inclined, it is that much more easy to dislike a black person, again if one is so inclined. Korea and Vietnam were far away; Greece and Yugoslavia were closer, yet more contained; this time the areas of conflict are larger, the peoples involved are more visible [read: darker]. News of conflicts is now more accessible and it is easy for the likes of Viktor Orbán to stir people against immigrants. This will be a tough fight, one that will not be easily overcome. Orbán… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

From today, the 13th century mikveh at the royal castle, now underground, will be shown to the public.

The synagogue from the same era is under the pre-ww2 army headquarters – it cannot be visited.

http://www.varkertbazar.hu/hu/hirek/augusztustol-latogathato-a-nyolc-eve-feltart-ritualis-zsido-furdo

Peter Karlsson
Guest

Sorry for being the naive Swede here, but should the writing of a king who lived a thousand years ago really be the source of argumentation about 21st century mass migration? Just shows how important a serious historical perspective is when it comes to understanding Hungarian political discourse.

BTW, Eva, the first link went to another article at Mandiner, not the one from Gondola.

exTor
Guest

Yes and no, Peter Karlsson.

The point is that the rightwing uses history to back its arguments against immigration, hence using that same history to counter the rightwing is appropriate and hopefully effective. Sadly however, the rightwing is not receptive [read: susceptible] to intelligent discourse.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Dr. Janet Kerekes
Guest

Just a small point. Immigration to Hungary was exclusively Christian – in all its different shades – with the exception of Jews, of course. The trajectory of the Jewish presence in Hungary we are all familiar with, and was not at all smooth. The immigration presently under discussion is almost completely Muslim, and Ms. Balogh has made no reference to this fact and whether and what kind of assimilation could be successfully imagined of this group. Perhaps they can be successfully integrated and contribute to the well being of the Hungarian nation, but as it stands, this is a comparison between apples and oranges.

álmos
Guest

I think you have a point, but note that many are non-Muslim Africans. (Plus many of the European migrants from Kosovo and Serbia are extremely backward romas.) The blacks may remain poor compared to the average of the receiving country (in UK Caribbean blacks lag behind in every possible metric) and they may of course look different from the majority, but with them the receiving countries tend not to experience what they experience with Muslim immigrants who essentially reject modernity, capitalism and the Enlightenment (which is why Jobbik so much likes Iran and the Arabs — they fundamentally and ‘successfully’ resist modernity and ‘the West’). In my view the Muslims cannot successfully be integrated/assimilated into (the conception of modern) ‘Europe’ and thus we don’t need them. I have absolutely nothing against the Muslims of India or Egypt or Turkey, but I would be very uncomfortable with the muezzin in Budapest.

Guest

Are you saying that Jobbik can not be integrated in modern Europe – because they hold similar views as “some” Muslims?

And does that mean that Hungary can not be integrated into modern Europe – because Fideszniks hold similar views to Jobbik?

Actually there are many Fidesz supporters (on politics.hu e g) which say that “Western Europe” is degenerate with its ideas on equality for LGBT people etc – do you think among similar lines?

PS:
I know a few Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians, Moroccans etc who are very well integrated into German society – as doctors, professors …

angryrat
Guest
Holy moly, you are racist as hell. This is what I LOVE about the people in Hungary who claim themselves to be anti-racist: they, too spew racist ideology when it comes to Arabs/Muslims. These sentences are wrong on so many levels, it’s not even funny. (Reject modernity? Really? Have you looked at Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc from the ’40s-’50s onward? They have been royally screwed over by -mostly- western meddling in their affairs.) Who are “the Arabs”, anyway? There are so many diverse cultural and religious groups, you can hardly collect them under one name… ” Muslim immigrants who essentially reject modernity, capitalism and the Enlightenment (which is why Jobbik so much likes Iran and the Arabs — they fundamentally and ‘successfully’ resist modernity and ‘the West’). In my view the Muslims cannot successfully be integrated/assimilated into (the conception of modern) ‘Europe’ and thus we don’t need them. I have absolutely nothing against the Muslims of India or Egypt or Turkey, but I would be very uncomfortable with the muezzin in Budapest.” As for the meat of this discussion: I think there IS a legitimate concern about absorbing large number (1% of the population annually) people from very diverse… Read more »
exTor
Guest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mosques_in_Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Hungary

This is a racist lie. You are a racist lie, álmos.

Muslims have been in Hungary almost as long as the Magyars. The number of Muslims in Hungary is about 6000 and there are 6 mosques in Hungary.

A Muslim is no less able to assimilate anywhere in the world than any other person: black, white or other. A Muslim no more rejects modernity, whatever that means, than any other person. A Muslim is just one type of theist, like a Christian is a theist, like a Jew is a theist.

One of the better kickboxers in my club in Toronto was a Muslim. To me he looked ‘normal’, however a racist might define ‘normal’. He was just darker than me. Lots of people like that [darker] in Toronto and elsewhere.

Mighty white of you to say that you “have absolutely nothing against the Muslims of India or Egypt or Turkey”. Of course your proviso is that they should stay the hell where they are.

I dont like burkas, but even burka-wearing women can live in Hungary if they choose to. They already exist in Canada/USA.

Muslims are okay.

MAGYARKOZÓ

SoK
Guest
I think immigration is an overly sensitive issue now, the moment you want to raise the fact that untold number of unfortunately poor, backward immigrants (and their children) predominantly of the muslim faith could not integrate into modern, capitalist and secular European societies (owing to whatever causes) and tend to exist in compartmentalized communities you are called a racist. This is totally ridiculous and a totally self-defeating policy (see the results of the last EU elections). The problem does exist, many cultured and educated doctors, engineers etc. notwithstanding. (And, yes, Hungary itself is struggling to survive in the modern, capitalist world.) It’s the same problem with the roma. The roma (acknowledging their diversity and stratification too) tend to have a strong, identity-forming, quasi-nomadic culture that on the one side allows them to keep their identity (which is a plus for any minority wanting to survive), but which on the other hand also makes their integration and, yes, assimilation into the modern state extremely difficult. They tend to have more children (meaning any inheritance is divided among more persons, whereas among the majority white Hungarians due to the decrease of population inheritance tends to make them actually richer as wealth concentrates),… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

@ExTor

1.
Each of the 6 mosques in your Wikipedia reference are FORMER mosques in Hungary.

2.
Muslim is not a “race”. Muslims can be of any “race”. If somebody criticizes Islam, a priori, s/he is not racist by this act.

Of course, Muslims can be nice or not nice as any group of people.

But Islam is unreformed, probably non-reformable, because each of its tenets goes back to a single person, who envisioned a theocratic dictatorship as his ideal, and mandated this for the entire world !

I had a good friend from Lebanon at an American university some 20 years ago. He had a Jewish mother and a Muslim father, so both religions could claim him. He was not religious openly, he was actually enrolled in Jewish studies!

Having read a collection of Mohammed’s sayings and deeds, I told him: “You know, this guy was a simple, bloody dictator”. My friend stopped me: “You must not say this. It is my duty to kill you for this.” I saw in his eyes that he was not joking.

exTor
Guest
Thanx for the headsup on the mosques. I will have to take your word for the mosques no longer existing, but how do we/you know? The Wikientry says nothing about mosque viability. It’s funny, I never even thought about the validity of using (or not) ‘racist’ against someone who blanketly condemns Muslims. Of course Muslims are no more a race than are Christians. That said, Muslims may not be a unitary race, however Muslims exist within many racial groupings. The reality as it pertains to Hungary, every Muslim who gets to Hungary (or tries to get to Hungary) will be of another race compared to the Hungarian majority. Not one Muslim coming to Hungary as a refugee will be a white person. Given that world reality, tappanch, it is very much correct to use the ‘racist’ epithet with respect to álmos. Another thing about the term ‘racist’: it’s starting to spread in the sense that it is becoming more encompassing. Just as ‘guy’ (which generally stands for a male in English) can now also mean a female [eg: “What are you guys [people of both sexes] going to do?”]; just as ‘gay’ (which generally stands for a male homosexual) can… Read more »
Webber
Guest

exTor, Actually, some of the refugees are as “white” as mainstream Hungarians. Look at this image:
https://www.rt.com/news/269236-hungary-immigrants-suspends-rules/
Anyway, what you suggest about the complexion of Muslims isn’t true generally, as Russians who have a lot of experience with (domestic) Muslims will tell you.
Not a few Afghans, Syrians, Turks, Lebanese, and Muslim peoples from the Caucasus (e.g. Circassians or Chechens), for instance, have light eyes and/or complexion, not to mention Bosnian Muslims and Albanians who are as “white” as any surrounding peoples – and red or blond hair is not so unusual among them.
Just look up the following “muslims” (intentionally w. a small m) – Sonja Zekic of Bosnia, the Circassian Ipek Özkök, or Enkelejda Lajqi of Albania – and tell me that they or their families would have difficulty melding in in Budapest (well, they personally would stand out anywhere, but not in a bad way).
Or look up Chechen lezginka dancing . The music is weird, the dancing is different (and impressive), but the people could walk down the streets of Paris without being noticed (n.b. all Caucasian people do this dance, incl. Christians such as Georgians).

Webber
Guest

P.S. – exTor, my gratitude to you, too, for generally humane comments on this issue.

Webber
Guest

If you’re curious – great Lezginka dancing here, by people who are definitely Muslim – the guy at 2:34 is incredible:

Then at 5:23 the kids start doing it, and are fantastic. This is a living culture, and in my view, Caucasian culture – their culture – is also part of European culture, though some might dispute that.
Anyway, Bosnian and Albanian Muslims are undoubtedly European. There is no disputing that.

Guest

@exTor
August 3, 2015 at 5:55 pm

Interesting point re language change.

But let us remember that semantic drift is often a deliberately induced Orwellian process, particularly in the interest of political correctness and social engineering.

When a century ago left-wing American intellectuals realised that socialism was not going to “sell” in America, they simply hijacked classical liberalism, and made “liberal” the American label for both socialist and social democrat.

“Holocaust”, which was originally coined as a descriptor of the industrial-style mass murder of European Jewry by the Nazis, these days became diluted to mean just about anything the user of the term might consider along a scale from seriously unpleasant to disastrous.

Detto “genocide”, which can mean all kinds of things these days, apart from its original meaning of physical mass slaughter to the point of extinction of some given ethnicity.

Drug taking and obesity are supposedly “diseases”, and the spread of drugs and obesity are described as “epidemics”, politically correct terms that remove all blame and responsibility from the “victims”.

Sixteen-seventeen year old vicious hoodlums that used to be referred to as minors, are these days referred to as “children”.

And so on, and so on.

Realitycheck
Guest

You need to get to know some Muslims. The stereotype of the conservative anti-western Muslim is just that, a stereotype. This summer in Budapest I drank, including some hazi palinka, until two with a few Muslims in a basement club. Their Muslim friend was playing a set that included Metallica, Led Zeppelin, and Rush. After the gig he was wondering where he could find some fű. Others Muslims I met were very westernized and well integrated into Hungarian society. They spoke fluent Hungarian and have been running businesses in Hungary for 10 to 20 years.

You may be surprised to learn that many Muslims are not very religious and share more common human values then not.

So, not apples to oranges comparison, but rather a human to human.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/03/taking-stock-of-muslim-integration-successes-in-europe/

The biggest problem with integrating Muslims will be the same as integrating Roma. Non-muslim and non-Roma attitudes are barriers that must be lowered first.

And the biggest interpersonal obstacle is what Janet expresses – ignorance.

Get to know a representative sample of Middle Easterners and Africans – you’ll probably like them.

Webber
Guest

Realitycheck: Thank you for that comment – it was a bright burst of humanity in a conversation that has been going deeper and deeper into the dark (increasingly off topic).

petofi
Guest

Moslems do not assimilate: it is part of the religion that they are superior and that non-believers can be treated in a lesser manner (you can lie and cheat non-believers–Koran).

Webber
Guest

Petofi, just replace the word Moslems in your sentence with Jews, Koran with Torah, and see what happens to it. I know what those words mean. I recognize those words. You do too. We’ve all read them and heard them before. They are awful words, hateful words, and dangerous words. Changing the words back to “Moslems” and “Koran” makes the sentence no better.

gre
Guest

I think we forget something. While Orban is indeed happy to utilize and fire up existing hatred (and happy to derail the political discourse so that we talk about non-existing immigrants instead of corruption and lack of jobs) most of the readers of this blog and I contend most voters in Hungary actually do not hate Muslims or immigrants.

But it’s totally another issue whether we want them to be our neighbors.

Of course these particular migrants now coming to Hungary would not want to stay in Hungary, but the point is: voters should be able to choose whom they want to include into their community. Australian and the US voters certainly exercise that right.

And if such voters are vary about poor Muslims immigrants (acknowledging that it’s an infinitely diverse community including among others Nigerians and Indonesians) then they have a right to be that without being called racist crypto-fascists.

I totally support giving them direct aid (water, sanitation etc.) when they are here, but – assuming they would want to live in Hungary – would I be happy with as many Muslims as in France or the Netherlands or even Austria? Not. I’m sorry.

Realitycheck
Guest

Where you draw the line.

France 7.5%
Netherlands 6%
Austria 5.4%

If Hungarian culture can not withstand a 5 to 6% Muslim population, then the issue is not the Muslims.

What horrible things do people imagine would happen at 5% Muslim? And if you are talking about terrorism, the Hungarian Roma experience it on a regular basis with only a 0.3% Muslim population to deal with.

Hungary was asked to take in less than 1000 refugees. Even if all of them were Muslim, it would not make a noticeable difference to the Muslim population in Hungary.

This is shameful episode.

Member
Tell me something gre…….how does having a muslim neighbor affect your life negatively? Also, please tell me why having a Nigerian living next to you would impact your life in any way, shape or form? You claim that you should be able to hold that opinion without opposition or being called a racist, but unless you can come up with a viable reason why these people would negatively impact your life, you would have nothing else except to make all sorts of made up claims about their religion or customs. Which in fact is racism. I have heard people make all sorts of claims and then back it up with links to racist news sites as their proof, or youtube videos made and edited by racist groups and spread online. As a Canadian, I do in fact live next door to a man from Sudan, his wife Canadian, on the other side of me I have a elderly couple the husband is Polish and the wife from Jerusalem and accross the street from me there are Muslims. I am Hungarian and my husband is French with some First Nations in him too. So do you think I should be feared… Read more »
Realitycheck
Guest

You think Muslims are monolithic in how they approach their religion? Not all Muslims are devout orthodox in the practice of their faith.

Member

What the heck is assimilation? I have Muslim friends and collagues. I see no problem. They don’t drink beer, we order pizza carefully and compliment on their henna. Henna is really hot …

Guest

Re: “Sadly however, the rightwing is not receptive [read: susceptible] to intelligent discourse”

Let me add that it would seem in Hungary that they wish to write ‘new’ historical scripts with a view that accords with the ‘job’ thinking of the day. Sadly this infection is part of the modern study of history in a few countries notably Russia who deem re-writes are necessary to inform all of what the ‘truth’ supposedly is in the examination of past events. It is in this way that the study, writing and discussion of history is being trampled upon simply because of a powerful drive to involve and marry it with ideological programs.

Guest
@exTor August 3, 2015 at 10:44 am There is a need to distinguish between Sunni and Shia Moslems, given that virulent, militant Moslem fundamentalism is Sunni, who actually regard the Shia, as well as Sunni offshoots like some of the Sufis or the Achmadiyyas, as heretics to be mercilessly extirpated. A distinction must furthermore be made between Sunni Moslems willing and able to integrate, and Sunni fundamentalists who are neither willing nor able to do, and regard the non-Moslem world as enemies to be mercilessly subdued by fire and sword. Similarly, a distinction need to be made between well educated, westernized and largely secular Sunni Moslems, who find it by and large relatively easy to successfully integrate into non-Moslem societies, and Sunni clansmen/peasants who find it virtually impossible to do so, even as second or third generation immigrants. The difficulty is distinguishing between these categories, primarily because the relatively handful of militant Sunni fundamentalists are enabled by and swim unseen in a vast sea of moderates, like Mao’s soldiers were said to be enabled by and swim in the vast sea of Chinese peasantry. In addition, the Sunni fundamentalists enjoy the financial, military and political support of extremely powerful patrons… Read more »
Guest

Re: “The carryings-on of militant Sunni fundamentalists is a wonderful source of oxygen for the Western media, which thrives on the fundamentalist threat”

You know for a state that just loves to breathe the perfumed Islamic air of genocide, the West, if it all expects to survive, will have to be ready for casualties. We’ll be looking at particpating in brutal ‘medieval’ battle once again with Americans and others the new infidels to die by the sword.

Let’s look for the jihadists to continually test borders. And it is only through land grabs that they hope to keep jihad alive. And no doubt through the Internet too..;-)…. Just because they’re of the ‘medieval persuasion’ doesn’t mean they ignore the marvels of the modern age.

spectator
Guest

Is there any mandatory health check in Hungary to each and every traveler from the African and Asian countries? How about the owners of recently bought Hungarian citizenship from those areas?

Am I right, when I assume, there isn’t any (yet, anyway)?

How dare the Hungarian authorities ignoring the ‘severe healthcare situation’ what all those people present, then?

As I heard the latest rumours, there are so far unknown diseases, “what the illegal immigrants inherently immune to”, but we have no way even to recognise it, let alone, have any treatment!

If its true, it could mean that the government acting totally irresponsibly while allowing anybody to enter Hungary by any means, – or I discovered the remedy!

Valid passport and return ticket can cure any disease in no time!

Alternatively you can buy a Hungarian citizenship, and you’re certainly healed in an instant!
Doesn’t matter, if you have those dam’n germs and viruses what you’re immune to, get them papers, and you’ll become healthy – by Hungarian standards, anyway.

As an illegal you may even start a pandemic simply by crossing the border over the greens, but come “officially”, and you’re not anymore, only the others…

—————
What a screwed bunch, but really!

tappanch
Guest

Fresh, August 3 report by the German Statistical Office. In 2014, there were 16.4 million people with immigrant background in Germany (20.3% of the population, 56% of them have German passports). This is an increase of 1.5 million people since 2011.

Three year increases from EU countries:

Bulgaria +79.4% (+53,000)
Hungary +51.9% (+55,000)
Romania +28.7% (+109,000)
Poland +16.7% (+179,000)
Italy +14.6% (55,000)

https://www.destatis.de/DE/PresseService/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2015/08/PD15_277_122.html

tappanch
Guest

Born outside Germany, hold German passport: 5.01
Born outside Germany, no German passport: 5.87
Born in Germany, hold German passport: 4.17
Born in Germany, no German passport: 1.35 million

Total: 16.39 million

People without “migration” background: 64.5 million

https://www.destatis.de/DE/PresseService/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2015/08/PD15_277_122pdf.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

sfenves
Guest

I had expected many additions/corrections to your historical list of immigrant groups that benefited Hungary. Not seeing any in the comments so far, here is my addition, albeit only of regional significance. The Bunyevác (Bunjevci in Croatian) were transplanted from the harsh Karst district in Croatia, mostly to the Bacska department. They were hardy mountain people – both men and women over two meters tall – who quickly took to the rich plain and became prosperous farmers – no one called them “paraszt” (peasant). They also became trendsetters of country fashion: the Sunday morning “Korzó” (promenade) in Szabadka/Subotica was dominated by the Bunyevác, walking six couples abreast, the men in fur-lined jackets and boots, the women’s headscarves, jackets, and ankle-length billowing skirts made of the same brightly-colored silk decorated with riotous floral patterns in multiple colors. My maternal great-grandfather’s Emporium imported the vast quantities of silk needed directly from Venice and Lyon, the premier silk trading centers of “La Belle Epoque” Europe. That is what I call successful integration.

Guest

Interesting read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci
Though “both men and women over two meters tall ” doesn’t appear there and may be a bit over the top …

Steven Fenves
Guest

They seemed that tall to the thirteen year old I was when I was deported from Subotica to Auschwitz

Member
spectator
Guest

Don’t let out anti-humanism, please!

Zoli
Guest

Oh yes!!! The Hungarian-Immigration “love story”. Yes, the economic benefits and so on. Except the article neglected to include the ending to this story. How about including the part where the Romanians took a chunk the size of current day Hungary and said “this is my land”?

How about the fact that most of Transylvania is now undergoing the process of homogenization? In 9 out of 15 Transylvanian counties, the ethnic Hungarian population declined by 25-35% just in the 2001-2011 period. For those who are not good at demographic math, it means that Hungarian culture is about to disappear in most of Transylvania within a few decades. In other words, the lands where the immigrants were settled are now being clensed. And you guys want to do the same with what is left of Hungary?

Member

The Odium of Orbanistan

Every day it becomes harder and harder to believe the depths of heartlessness to which the Fidik-minded populace of Hungary has sunk.

Shameless, shameful. The historic stigma this will leave on the Orban government and its supporters — mitigated only by that wonderful minority of Hungarians who have hearts and are helping the helpless victims of their countrymen’s odious apathy and antipathy — will be indelible.

The righteous Hungarians will one day prevail, but meanwhile Orbanistan is a pariah among nations, an odious blight on humanity itself. Shame, shame and more shame.

Read, reader, and weep.

Member

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spectator
Guest
It somehow seems to evade the most, that ‘history’ isn’t finished yet! History of mankind is an ongoing process, just as it was from day one, we like it or not. There is no “final state of things” – contrary to the favourite dreamscape of the Orbanists crowd – everything moving, everything changes all the time. Yes, it includes you, me, the borders, the languages, the culture, even our genome. Nothing last for eternity, – except the stupidity of some, I’m afraid – and there isn’t much to do about this fact. Of course, one can hope, that the blessed equilibrium may last a little bit longer, and then maybe not me, but my offsprings have to deal with the change, but the change by definition is inevitable. Back to reality: In my opinion the sooner we prepare ourselves to deal with it, the better chance we have that our culture may prevail. And by “deal with it” I mean adapt to the changes, not fighting them. If someone would have a state of mind and would start thinking on a method to integrate immigrants as soon as possible, may could help to integrate those who coming later too, helping… Read more »
Guest

Very well said!

When I look at my (and my wife’s) family and friends – we have Brits, Irishmen, Africans – and her nephew’s children growing up in the USA probably will take US partners whose ancestors are from all over the world …

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