The Hungarian Catholic Church is not very Christian

In the middle of July Miklós Soltész, undersecretary in charge of communication between the government and religious, nationality and civic organizations, called together the Council of Charitable Organizations, whose members are the Catholic Caritas, the Hungarian Reformed Church Aid, the Hungarian Maltese Charity Service, the Baptist Charity Service, the Hungarian Red Cross, and the Hungarian Ecumenical Aid Service. It was becoming painfully obvious that these charitable organizations were doing very little to alleviate the suffering of the asylum seekers who were arriving in Hungary on their way farther west.

The spokesmen for these organizations protested and tried to prove that quietly, behind the scenes they were hard at work. They said that they don’t like to brag about their accomplishments, that they were doing their job in a discreet manner. According to their critics, they had succeeded so well that they were practically invisible.

The media decided to look into the “quiet” activities of these organizations. Upon questioning, each of them described their accomplishments which, compared to the work of the ad hoc civilian groups, were minuscule. Two shelters that could give temporary shelter to 80 people (families exclusively), some food distribution in transit zones, psychological counseling, and occasional mobile medical service. The least active, I believe, had to be the Hungarian Reformed Church Aid, which seemed to be involved primarily with refugees who had already received refugee status in Hungary. Admittedly, integrating newcomers into Hungarian society is an important job, which should be the duty of the Hungarian government. Language lessons, for example, are much more effective if they are given by professionals instead of church volunteers.

In fact, earlier we were told that there was no need for any charitable services, that the refugees living in camps were well looked after by the Hungarian government. So far this year the Catholic Caritas has sent only four trucks with food, baby food, clothes, and toiletries. In the future, they promised, they will distribute 10,000 bottles of mineral water. The Hungarian Red Cross apparently managed to get 92 million forints from the International Red Cross which is, of course, a drop in the bucket, so they are asking for contributions from the public. I have the feeling, however, that Hungarians have lost their trust in these charitable organizations and that they’d rather offer help to the civilians on the spot.

All in all, the general impression was that neither church-related organizations nor the churches themselves were doing much when it came to the refugee crisis. The silence of the so-called historic churches was deafening. Months ago György Bolgár decided to ask for an interview with Bishop Miklós Beér, perhaps the only bishop who seems to be at all sensitive to the needs of the poor and the downtrodden, especially Hungary’s Roma population. Although Beér was sympathetic to the refugees’ plight, it was clear from his answers that the Hungarian Catholic Church was not contemplating any statement about what a good Christian’s attitude ought to be toward the refugees. Pope Francis at least twice had called on Europeans to take in the desperate refugees and condemned the fences some countries were building to keep them out. In the face of the pope’s statements, it was more and more difficult for Hungarian church leaders to remain quiet.

The Conference of Hungarian Bishops

The Conference of Hungarian Bishops

On September 3 Cardinal Péter Erdő, Archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest, gave an interview to Népszabadság which outraged those Hungarians sympathetic to the refugees. To the question of why the Catholic Church does not open its doors to refugees who need shelter, the archbishop claimed that the reason for the church’s refusal to follow the example of Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Archbishop of Vienna, who will make space for 1,000 refugees, is that Hungarian law prohibits it. Giving such shelter is tantamount to human trafficking/smuggling. This excuse, according to the Hungarian Helsinki Commission, is nonsense. Smuggling anything or anybody can only be done across national borders.

There is nothing surprising in Erdő’s reluctance to do anything that might irritate the Orbán government. Unfortunately, the Hungarian Catholic Church throughout its history has been a steadfast supporter of the government in power, especially if it leaned right. As far as I can see, the main concern of church leaders is how much money they can get from the government.

After the backlash to his interview, the archbishop claimed that the media “misunderstood” what he had actually said. The journalist took his words out of context. His explanation was anything but convincing, and the only additional information he provided was that “the church was planning to open church properties to the refugees.” Yes, sometime in the future.

Here I would like to record two reactions. One is Szabolcs Kerék-Bárczy’s open letter to Cardinal Archbishop Péter Erdő. Kerék-Bárczy, who is currently on the executive board of the Demokratikus Koalíció, was previously one of the leading politicians of the Magyar Demokrata Fórum (MDF), a right-of-center party demolished by the machinations of Viktor Orbán. Kerék-Bárczy is a practicing Catholic.

In this letter he reminds Erdő of Pope Francis’s view that turning these refugees away amounts to “war, violence, and murder.” In June the pope called on those who build fences to beg the forgiveness of God. Many national churches have followed the pope’s instructions and teaching, but there is total silence from the Hungarian Catholic Church. Kerék-Bárczy “as a Hungarian Catholic” is full of questions. This is not the first time that he is confused. He no longer knows “what the Hungarian Catholic Church stands for.” The Bible says that “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.” (Mark 9:37). And now, a thousand years after Hungarians accepted Christianity, “a government that calls itself Christian does the exact opposite” of what Christ ordered. Instead of accepting them, it sends armed soldiers to keep them out of the country. In Kerék-Bárczy’s opinion, the Conference of Bishops should as a body take a stand against the government’s inhumane behavior. It is not enough to do charity work quietly. One must stand up and provide guidance to Hungarian society, even if that means being on a collision course with the current government.

The other remarkable reaction came from László Vértesaljai, a Jesuit monk who is editor-in-chief of the Hungarian-language Vatican Radio. He delivered a mass yesterday whose message came from the story Luke tells:

On a sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands. But some of the Pharisees said, “Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath?” And Jesus answered, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?” And he said to them, “The Son of man is lord of the sabbath.” (6:1-5)

In Vértesaljai’s eyes, Erdő and the rest of the leading Catholic leaders are Pharisees who hide behind the laws. There are times when the laws ought to be transgressed because they go against the teachings of Christ.

Harsh words from both Szabolcs Kerék-Bárczy and László Vértesaljai and foremost from Pope Francis who this morning called on Europe’s Catholics to shelter refugees. “May every parish, every religious community, every monastery, every sanctuary in Europe host a family.” According to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, there are 120,000 parishes in Europe.

To be fair, one Hungarian churchman, the abbot of the Benedictine Monastery of Pannonhalma, has in the last couple of days sheltered a few refugee families. But one must keep in mind two things. First, Abbot Asztrik Várszegi is an exception to the incredibly conservative Hungarian clergy. Second, it seems that it was not Várszegi who went to the civic organizers and asked how he could help, as, for example, Ferenc Gyurcsány, former prime minister, did. He was approached by the organizers who were shepherding some refugees going to Austria on foot. Almost as if these young volunteers said to themselves: let’s see what they will do. Will they follow the example of Cardinal Erdő or will they decide to act as true Christians?

I assume that sooner or later the Hungarian high clergy will be shamed into offering shelter to the growing number of refugees, but at the same time I doubt that they will do what Szabolcs Kerők-Bárczy asked Cardinal Erdő to do: to speak openly and condemn the Hungarian government for its heartless, un-Christian behavior.

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Guest

Hey, I am a devote Christian and a big follower of the Bible up to the point it doesn’t go against the government policy. – Probably this is the view of the Hungarian Clergy. – Leave me alone, it is much safer and more fun organizing the Holy Right Walk, so let me focus on that instead.

Webber
Guest

Orban’s border guards must be making quite a nice pile of money off the refugees – for they are CERTAINLY getting kick-backs from the smugglers driving people to Budapest from Serbia. Story here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/06/money-now-people-smugglers-conduct-brisk-business-in-hungary

clive75mercer
Guest

This is an example of the Catholic Church and it’s leaders, acting at the most unchristian level. They should utterly ashamed, for they have revealed that that they are “unfit for purpose” . A total disgrace.

rug
Guest

Of course the border guards and the Belügy (the Ministry of Interior) milk the business, who would have thought?

Fidesz and its minions always take the cut from any racket — for example the black market tobacco trade, created by the complete rearrangement of the tobacco business by Fidesz (to favor loyal fideszniks), which now amounts to some 200bn forints. The smuggling of people is just one racket controlled by top fideszniks.

As long as there’s chaos and voters meet the “dirty Arabs” (don’t give them any opportunity to shower etc. and then you can call them dirty and unkempt) on the street of Budapest, Szeged, along the highways, Orban is just fine. That was his plan and he is executing on his plan.

Soon, however, even the Germans and Austrian voters will be fed up with the Syrians and when the tide turns Orban will be vindicated, I’m afraid.

Mark
Guest

The man in the picture above, front row, third from left, is decidedly NOT a Hungarian Catholic bishop.

He is Christoph Cardinal Schönborn, Archbishop of Vienna — himself an immigrant.

When he was a little boy his mother escaped from Czechoslovakia to Austria with him and his brothers.

The Schönborns arrived to Austria poor, afraid, and lonely. But happily, they were able to establish themselves.

Cardinal Schönborn is definitely a friend to refugees, and a friend to humanity.

Readers of German will get a better sense of the contrast between Hungarian bishops’ and Austrian bishops’ attitude toward this crisis. The Cardinal, in his own words:

“Lebend und legal nach Europa”: http://www.erzdioezese-wien.at/pages/inst/14428675/text/antworten/article/43028.html

“Für Humanität nicht schämen”: http://www.erzdioezese-wien.at/site/home/nachrichten/article/44596.html

Also, in case you missed it, a few weeks ago an Austrian parish priest used a most unusual means to disrupt a hate-filled anti-refugee demonstration:

http://kurier.at/chronik/oesterreich/steirischer-pfarrer-setzte-kirchenglocken-gegen-anti-asyl-demo-ein/146.207.552

Finally, the Pope in Rome has advised that every Catholic parish in Europe open its doors to refugees. Let’s hope the Hungarian Catholic Church will take advantage of this opportunity provided by the Pope as a way to “do penance” for heretofore callousness.

Never too late to make amends!

tappanch
Guest

Former VP Cheney & daughter Liz on the Iranian “deal” and the refugee crisis (from 5:55- about 7:00 ) yesterday.

“All across Europe today, the tragedy there, is a direct consequence of Barack Obama’s Middle East policies,” “A direct consequence of walking away from the Middle East, and creating chaos, creating a vacuum that ISIS, that Iran, that America’s enemies are now filling.”

“Today what you have is a crisis of major proportions in Syria, supported primarily by the Iranians, that’s driven hundreds of thousands of people to look for refuge someplace else. They’re all headed for Europe and it’s a terrible tragedy.”

tappanch
Guest

from 5:55 to 7:10

Webber
Guest

Cheney… the paragon of truth and honesty…

PártVéder
Guest

“…Creating chaos…” Hm.

Isn’t this what the US has been doing by invading Iraq and Afghanistan?

Could it be that it was Cheney himself who pushed for both (completely futile) wars?

Who thinks in 2015 that Cheney (W. Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton etc.) is an authority on anything?

Gimme a break, please.

tappanch
Guest

By attacking the messenger, you do not refute the message. 🙂

Webber
Guest

“weapons of mass destruction” Cheney… Sorry old boy, but when the messenger is a proven liar, an intelligent person does not put too much trust in the message he delivers. If that liar, moreover, is working for a party…
Even if he weren’t a liar, I’d ask why you imagine he has inside information now? He’s been out of the loop for many long years now. The SOB is just about right for Faux News – nothing more.

An
Guest

Tappanch, I don’t think it is helpful to bring US domestic political games into this… the Republicans like to blame Obama for anything that is wrong in the US or in the world. Presidential elections are coming up soon.

I’d agree that the US middle east policy should take a considerable part of the blame for the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in the Middle East, but this failure goes back much longer than Obama (and Cheney is more part of it than anybody else).

tappanch
Guest

Dear @An,

Gyurcsany made lots of mistakes. But Orban has been the Premier in the last 6 years.

Similarly, I do not blame Obama only. But he has been the president in the last 7 years…

I do not belong to any party. Republican or Democratic. And I do not play any political games. I am not a politician.

Nádas
Guest
Cheney has a very vested interest in trying to pin the blame for chaos in the Middle East on the current president, when if fact it was Cheney – even more than Bush – who pushed for the illegal invasion and subsequent destruction of Iraq under false pretenses. If justice were done, he and a few dozen others would be in prison in the The Hague thanking their lucky stars we no longer don’t hang war criminals. And by any measure, they are criminals. Following the “double-tap” shelling of civilians in a Sarajevo marketplace by Bosnian Serbs in the mid-’90s, one UN official said he hoped there was a particularly hot corner of Hell waiting for those who had ordered and carried out the attack. And if there is such a place, Cheney will have plenty of company when the time comes. It’s astonishing that even as he gets older and closer to drawing his final breath, he seems to be even more unrepentant for the death, damage and destruction that he pushed so hard for, that benefited only the oil companies, the defense contractors, and Israel, and that began the exodus of Arab refugees from the region. And in… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

“Israel has just announced the impending destruction of 17,000”. False.

Read the guardian.co.uk and btselem.org reports thoroughly. [Neither source is a friend of Israel.]

The 11,134 demolition orders involving some 17,000 structures has been issued in the last 27 (!) years (1988-2014). This is a small part of what the Palestinian Arabs built in Area C in the same period. Lots of orders are never carried out. The Israeli authorities have issued 6,950 demolition orders against Jewish structures in the same area too.

The actual number of demolished structures was 245 in the first half of 2015.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/israel-demolish-arab-buildings-west-bank-un-palestinian

In August, the demolition rate picked up, and involved 50 residential structures and 51 agricultural and other structures.

http://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building/20150903_demolition_wave

This is not our topic, but I wanted to show that we should gather the facts before we jump to the wrong conclusions. 🙂

tappanch
Guest

Re: Iraq

The 2003 invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake, because the political aftermath was not planned and handled properly.

[one] It contributed to the emerging hegemony of Iran over the region.
[two] It did not create democratic state[s].
[three] hundreds of billions of dollars were wasted.

It was in America’s power to create three, working states from Iraq after 2003. But the US administrations insisted on the theoretical unity of Iraq. After much bloodshed, the three states are here anyhow, but neither the Sunni Da’esh horror state nor the Iranian-dominated Shi’a state are too nice to their own people, and are at wars with each other.

Nádas
Guest

The invasion of Iraq was not just “a huge mistake,” it was a premeditated war crime. Many of its advocates are back now and they’re bad-mouthing the Iran deal and pushing for another war, which would be just as criminal.

By the way, Colin Powell’s State Department did have detailed plans for the aftermath of the 2003 bombing campaign and invasion, but Rumsfeld and his two top civilian deputies at the Defense Department, Wolfowitz and Feith, threw them out. They gave Bremer his orders to disband the Iraqi military and dissolve the Baathist Party, which he dutifully did.

And the rest is history.

Member

There is no defending the indefensible. There should be no Jewish settlements whatsoever in the occupied territories. Not one. They are a terrible and shameful mistake, and tragic for both sides. Only when they are removed will Israel again have the global support that it needs for its survival.

But this is not a topic that belongs in the Hungarian Spectrum (even as a demonstration of fact-gathering). There is heat and controversy and diversion enough on the topic of this forum without importing more.

Member

Thumbs Up!

tappanch
Guest

Dear Stevan,

You want to make the West Bank Juden-rein. This would mean the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank & East Jerusalem of 500,000+ Jewish inhabitants.

Would you agree to oust all Arabs from the pre-1967 Israel as well?

Nádas
Guest

Tappanch, now you’re entering the realm of lunacy. The 500,000+ Jewish settlers are illegal squattters (under the Geneva Conventions).

Nádas
Guest

“Israel plans to demolish up to 17,000 structures, most of them on privately owned Palestinian land in the part of the illegally occupied West Bank under full Israeli military and civil rule, a UN report has found.” [The Guardian, 7 Sept]

The only inaccuracy in what I wrote is that it was the UN who announced the coming demolitions, not the Israeli government itself.

Further: “Nearly 4,500 of the demolition orders affected Palestinian Bedouins, who human rights groups argue are at the centre of Israeli plans to force them off their land to allow for expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which are illegal under international law.”

The Germans had a name for this type of expansion: “Lebensraum.”

Most of these structures were built by Palestinians on their own property without Israeli permission because they rarely give construction permits of any kind to Arabs, particularly in the Occupied Territories.

Since neither the Guardian nor Btselem (an Israel-based Jewish organization) is – in your words – “a friend of Israel,” does that make their information unreliable?

But then you would have us believe that Dick and Liz Cheney are unbiased, disinterested and sage observers of the Middle East?

Guest

@Nádas
September 7, 2015 at 11:41 am

I am deeply sorry to say in this instance too, but you are absolutely spot on with what you are saying on this (off-) topic.

tappanch
Guest

“Lebensraum.” Look at the map. Dig deeper to go beyond the headlines.

Nádas
Guest

And your point is… ?

spectator
Guest

Hmm…
It makes me wonder actually, destruction of how many structures can be counted as “right”?
Am I missing something?
And yes, seriously..!

Member
The Hungarian Church had sold out, as always to the powers and dictators, to protect their real estate and safety, for generous payments from the government. The governing bodies of the Catholic and Reformed churches are full of loathsome, corrupt, immoral criminals, same as the Mafioso thieves in the Fidesz/KDNP/Jobbik. The Catholic Church had served well Mussolini, Hitler and many other dictators and kings for many hundreds of years. The only interest the Church have is collecting money, wealth and security to remain in the position of getting more money for their cooperation. The Catholic and Reformed churches are governed by the most immoral hypocrites the World have ever seen. If what they fear, that the Muslims will win over them, they certainly deserve it. Not because the Muslims are better, but because the christians are unable to fight for the true judeo-christian morals and value system. The Church is and has been for a very, very long time a monkey wrench in Western Civilization and we don’t have to run down on the 1600 years of their dastardly crimes, enough to mention of the Inquisition, the destruction of the Indian cultures in Central- and South America and their criminal… Read more »
Guest
Re: The Church and its ‘dastardly crimes’… You know on that I’d suggest the Church itself should be looked as an institution run by fallible human beings. We’ve seen it through the millennia as we certainly see it occurring today in Magyarorszag. The ‘message’ in its communication ideally was to be reckoned as a force for social and spiritual good. But sometimes through the ages as in modern day Magyarorszag she has ‘messengers’ who are not up to the difficult tasks. They fail to do their duty to the detriment of all those who comprise the human family. I hate to say it but they are weak papier–mâché cutouts of supposedly Christ’s representatives on the earth. If it wasn’t for the Pope’s exhortations on the crisis I’d say they’d go on la-dee-da like slimy jelly-fish simply swimming around in their baptismal fonts soaking up all that sanctified holy water. And besides failing to deal with the refugee tragedy there is another issue which I’d suggest those bishops and cardinals have neglected to focus on and that is Catholic/Christian-Jewish relations in the country. I have a feeling that the Church is also oblivious to the ramifications of not paying attention to… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Orban supports the “wise” Hungarian Catholic Church supporting him.

http://444.hu/2015/09/07/orban-viktor-legujabb-a-uzenete-a-migransoknak-ne-gyertek/

What is the percentage of the income of the Church that comes from the state budget?
I don’t have fresh numbers.
At the beginning of Orban’s rule, it was around 70%.

TeamBritanniaHu
Guest
The gospel passage that you quote is taken out of context. Jesus was referring to arguments over the religious laws of Judaism, not to the secular laws of Palestine, a Roman province at the time in which only Judea was allowed to retain its own government. Jesus was very careful not to encourage open revolt or dissent against the laws, and even encouraged his followers to ‘go further’ in demonstrating their obedience to the laws, going the extra mile and turning the other cheek. He was born in Bethlehem precisely because his parents followed the Emperor’s decree and became refugees in Gaza to escape Herod the Great’s slaughter of the innocents. St Paul wrote to the early Christians around the eastern Mediterranean telling them that they must respect ‘properly-constituted authority’. Yes, there does come a time when passive resistance needs to be replaced by active disobedience, but I’m not convinced that time is now, since, like the ‘Holy Family’, refugee status can only be assessed under EU and international law once an individual claim is made. Jesus was subject to Roman and Judean law at birth, but became a refugee when his life was threatened by the authority which was… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

I apologize, but I love to discover errors.
@TeamBritanniaHu
“Palestine, a Roman province at the time” [of Jesus].
False. The name was introduced one hundred years later.

Great Herod’s Kingdom of Judea was divided into 4 parts after his death.
The biggest part, Provincia Ivdaea was created in 6 CE. It included Samaria, Judea and Idumea.
comment image

Syria Palæstina was established by the merger of Syria and Judaea, following the defeat of the Bar Kokhba Revolt in 135.

Tyrker
Guest

“On August 3 Cardinal Péter Erdő, Archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest, gave an interview”

Correction: this was on September 3.

BBC
Guest

Archbishop’s attitude and position offer a strong indication re what kind of regime he is dealind with.

Lajcsi
Guest

Meanwhile the reliable Tibor Navracsics opens the First European Week of Sports.

http://algebraicvarietyshow.tumblr.com/image/128547200149

Lajcsi
Guest

This is the best.

“De – és Orbán szerint ez fontos – „Magyarország nem kéri, hogy osszuk szét Európában” a hazai cigányságot. Sőt, „amikor elindulnak Kanada felé, arra kérjük őket, hogy maradjanak”, mondta. ”

“But – and according to Orban this is important – Hungary does not request that the Hungarian gipsies be distributed among EU member states. What’s more when they decide to move towards Kanada, we ask such gipsies to stay – he said.”

He is the proverbial man who pisses into the pool from the trampoline (ie. a lot of people piss into the pool, but only while in the water).

That said comparing Orban to Donald Trump does a terrible injustice to Trump, who made his money on his own (though he inherited his starting capital), whereas Orban stole his wealth entirely from Hungarian taxpayers.

http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/07/orban_nincs_ellenunkre_a_kvota/

Member

OT but your post just reminded me of something. Last week I had to go into the walk-in clinic for a prescription. What I was waiting nice family arrived with four children. They spoke Hungarian, so I greeted them, and ended up talking to them. It was family from Miskolc. The dad is working hard in Canada, doing whatever comes up, like painting, installing drywalls, roofing, gardening, and he takes his older boy with him when needed. Gipsies want to work, when they can, when they looked upon as equals, and when they are respected and paid properly. I have their number and now as Fall coming, I will use them to clean up my garden, as well as pass their contact on to my friends. Yes, let the gipsies coming, Canada can use hard working people, and we will pay them properly!

PártVéder
Guest
@tappanch, you are trying to be wise in retrospect. “It was in America’s power to create three, working states from Iraq after 2003.” When was in anybody’s power to create ‘working’ (what does that mean? Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia, Somaliland, South Sudan vs .Sudan etc.) states from Iraq? When did it work when a formerly independent nation was chopped up and operated as x number of new political entities? Obviously Iraq, the Middle-East and most African nations themselves were the results of such nation-building, nation-creating efforts to begin with. Why did the US have to do anything in Iraq? There were no WMDs, all of Europe knew it. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. This is how you expect successful foreign policy? Without information, lying to everybody and an army? This was bound to fail. Afghanistan? It’s still a puzzle to me, at least in Iraq the US wanted to secure oil, but in Afghanistan? You are wrong, we’re talking about way more than 1 trn wasted dollars (and counting). In a book Joseph Stiglitz estimated the amount at 3trn already in 2008. There is Robert Merton’s famous law of unintended consequences. The educated Republicans apparently never read a single… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Afghanistan – what is the puzzle? Bin Laden, and many other Al Qaeda leaders were there, and enjoying protection from the Afghan govt. The US govt. asked the Afghan govt. to deport Bin Laden, to ANY country. Not even necessarily to arrest him, but to deport him. The response? “He is our guest…” and an outright, repeated refusal to deport him or other Al Qaeda people.
So, what is the puzzle? That it cost a lot of money with no apparent financial gain? Not everything is about money.

edert
Guest

I guess not. After all, only a few trillion dollars were spent to make things significantly worse in the region.

.

Guest

@Webber
September 7, 2015 at 8:45 am

Worth mounting a full-blown military invasion of Afghanistan, get bogged down in over a decade of unwinnable war, loose thousands of American dead, twice as many wounded and a lot more wounded psychologically, plus almost a trillion dollars?

When a special forces police operation could have done the job in a fraction of the time and at a fraction of the cost?

Guest

@PártVéder
September 7, 2015 at 8:26 am

Right.

tappanch
Guest
Mytilene, Lesvos, today: “Fights broke out between groups of refugees and the police on Mytilene on Sunday. Early on Sunday morning hundreds of Afghans attempted to board the Eleftherios Venizelos ferry boat, without tickets or having gone through the registration procedures, prompting the intervention of the riot police. Clashes later broke out at the Kara Tepe camp that has been set up. About half hour after the registration of Syrian refugees began, another group of migrants demanded that they be documented first. In the clashes that broke out two Coast Guard officers and three migrants were injured. Many more who where caught up in the scuffles, primarily women and children, experienced breathing problems from the commotion on the island’s port and were taken to the local hospital for first aid. The Eleftherios Venizelos departed from Mytilene at 7 in the evening with about 2,500 on board. A further 400 migrants and refugees later boarded the Ariadne ferry boat for Piraeus.” http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=735196 “Two additional daily ferry routes from Lesvos to Piraeus, apart from the regular routes. The ships will be “Terra Jet” and “Pegasus, while in case of emergency the “Blue Star Patmos” will also contribute. The car ferry “Eleftherios Venizelos”… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Shouldn’t EU law be changed?

The towns of Melilla & Ceuta, the islands of Lampedusa & Malta, the Greek islands of Lesvos, Chios, Samos, Kos, Rhodos etc should gain special status. Arriving there, an undocumented person should not be entitled to travel further inland or to apply for asylum automatically.

Guest

@tappanch
September 7, 2015 at 10:58 am

IN Australia, such arrangements are called exterritoriality. It would makes sense to include Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Majorca and Minorca as well. At the same time large EU “safe haven” reception centers should be set up in Turkey and Libya, capable of accommodating in civilized circumstances, if need be millions of people at a time, for screening and processing refugees and would-be economic immigrants to the EU, under a quota system agreed by member states. The “safe haven” reception centers in Libya would be operating under NATO military protection. Those who nonetheless attempted to by-pass the “safe haven” reception centers and enter the Schengen area illegally, would be automatically returned to Turkey or Lybia, without exception.

Guest

@tappanch
September 7, 2015 at 10:58 am

Correction: the word is not exterritoriality, but extraterritoriality.

Member

Kim Lane Scheppele’s Article on Orban’s September 15 Police-State Legislation Plans

No doubt Éva will be posting the full text, but meanwhile I’ve temporarily archived the PDF at:

http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Temp/Scheppele-Police-State.pdf

Member

Excerpt from Prof Scheppele’s article:

“The Hungarian government’s disregard for the rights of refugees in EU law presages its disregard for the rights of its own ci?zens in the coming surveillance state. Over the last five years, the Hungarian government has eliminated all checks on its power and now it is using the refugee crisis to usher in a police state.

“While EU institutuons have looked on, horrified but paralyzed, Prime Minister Orbán has created a dictatorship in Hungary. In plain sight, the Hungarian government is shredding the values of democracy, human rights and rule of law, values on which the European Union was built. As a state of emergency looms in Hungary, now is the time to invoke Article 7 of the Treaty of the European Union, quarantining Hungary by removing its vo?ng rights in EU mapers. It’s the least the EU can do to show solidarity not only with refugees – but also with the EU citizens of Hungary.”

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

tappanch
Guest

Good article by Prof Scheppele. Will the suspension of voting rights change Orban’s mind about the benefits of a police state? I doubt it. The suspension of the 6 billion euros of yearly EU subsidy would be a stronger tool.

Here is an error to correct:

“The access point must permit at least 10% of all traffic carried across the network to be captured in real time”.

It is not 10%, but 0.1% [I guess even NSA cannot get to 10% technically] for providers with more than a million subscribers.

See 28. §. in “tervezet” at http://www.kormany.hu/download/f/4f/60000/arckep.zip#!DocumentBrowse

tappanch
Guest

0.1% or at least 3000 subscribers whose data traffic is more than double the average [so if I do not watch movies or listen to music on the internet, but only ridicule Orban in this blog – am I exempt from secret surveillance?]

See 28. §. in “tervezet_tv.pdf” at http://www.kormany.hu/download/f/4f/60000/arckep.zip#!DocumentBrowse

Member

Sorry, had to remove the URL because Prof. Scheppele asked me to wait till it was published. I’ll put it back up as soon as it appears.

Reality Check
Guest

Do you know when and in which media outlet?

Member

No, unfortunately I don’t know where the Scheppele report will be published.

tappanch
Guest

Defense Minister Hende resigned today.

Did he oppose the domestic deployment of the army?
Will Hungarian troops be withdrawn from Afghanistan or Kosovo?

http://hvg.hu/itthon/20150907_Lemondott_Hende_Csaba_honvedelmi_miniszte

Tyrker
Guest

“Did he oppose the domestic deployment of the army?”

I do not know. The word out on the street is that he had promised the completion of the now-infamous fence for “late August” and, having failed at that, he simply had to go.

Guest

For those who can read Hungarian, here is an absolutely brilliant article about the refugee crisis by Gadó János in Szombat online (albeit bearing a title that appears to be senselessly at variance with the actual contents of the piece):

http://www.szombat.org/politika/hogyan-allitsuk-el-a-vulkankitorest

Guest

Thank you for the link.

Guest

Yes it is.

In a nutshell, the refugees will certainly see how certain democracies react to them as they make their ‘home’ in a completely new environment both politically , ethnically and culturally. There will be challenges for them as well as the democratic countries they go to. Question is can they make the jump? Will the ‘new world’ help them make a good life and contribution to its betterment? It will be a struggle. But there are probably here who know what they will go through. Arguably it worked here in the U.S. Hope it ‘works’ there. If not we perhaps will be seeing more European Pompeii’s all over the place.

tappanch
Guest

Imre Kertész : “The Last Refuge”

“Europe will soon go under because of its previous liberalism which has proven childish and suicidal. Europe produced Hitler, and after Hitler there stands a continent with no arguments: the doors are wide open for Islam; no longer does anyone dare talk about race and religion, while at the same time Islam only knows the language of hatred against all foreign races and religions”.

“It always ends the same way: civilization reaches a stage of maturation where it is not only unable to defend itself, but where it in a seemingly incomprehensible manner worships its own enemy”

Guest

This quote from his last book is all over the fascist/Neonazi/extremist right wing sites right now.
The book itself and Kertesz’ last years with all his problems after he became famous as a Nobel prize winner are nicely described here (in German):
http://www.nzz.ch/feuilleton/buecher/das-buch-des-erkaltens-1.18161915

Margot
Guest

OT,sorry.
For a while now we haven’t been able to see parts of ATV’s Olga Kalman show. Especially the guests that are anti government, like today Paul Lendvai. No problem with government friendly quests. The call in program Forum also is not available. Does anybody else have this experience? We are watching online.
Thanks!

tappanch
Guest

a ‘5-star’ journey to Europe

Damascus —-> Dubai —->[flight] Istanbul —-> Izmir —->[entry to EU] Rhodes —–> Athens (fake French passport & fake Slovak ID) —–>[flight] France ——>[flight] Sweden

“Sweden has a long tradition of welcoming refugees. Paperwork can be minimal and arrivals are given a medical test before being moved on to temporary homes.” “In a few years, I will be able to return to the Middle East with my Swedish passport ”

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/07/us-migrants-europe-sweden-dubai-idUSKCN0R71T220150907

Guest

OT …..With VO possibly watching the final overtime minutes of Hungary’s match with Northern Ireland in the Euro qualifiers and seeing them losing 3 points and having to settle for a tie after having a 1-nil lead with 5 overtime mins to go and further even being up a man , I have the feeling that seemingly supremely confident VO would sure wonder why the team can’t play ball like he plays politics. I mean you sure have to shut things down and keep people out when it’s time to hold the fort…;-)….

John Joseph
Guest

Maybe, just maybe, the most remarkable Pope in the 2,000 years will summon the Hungarian church leaders to the main office and ask what the hell they are doing. And if they don’t shape up, to ship out.

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