Viktor Orbán on his western critics

What a coincidence. Smack in the middle of perhaps the biggest crisis of the Orbán era, Hungarian ambassadors met in Budapest this morning. It was their regularly scheduled get together at which it is almost obligatory for the prime minister to speak.

It has been the custom for many years that during the month of August, when most people are enjoying their summer holidays, Hungarian ambassadors travel home to get some direction and personal guidance from their ministry. This year, however, it was decided that one such gathering is not enough. From here on the heads of Hungarian missions will travel back to Hungary twice a year. Once in early spring and once sometime in late August.

These occasions give Viktor Orbán an opportunity to deliver a lengthy speech in which he outlines his thoughts on Hungarian foreign policy. These speeches are regularly criticized by foreign policy experts as a string of inarticulate, ad hoc ideas that often cannot be reconciled with one another. In addition, he usually manages to make some provocative statements. At least one commentator labelled today’s speech “the most incoherent one” Orbán has managed to put together.

Péter Szijjártó finds the jokes of Viktor Orbán very amusing

Péter Szijjártó finds the jokes of Viktor Orbán very amusing

Some themes in these speeches are constant, such as the stress on an “independent Hungarian foreign policy” which takes only one thing into consideration: “Hungarian interests.” Fidesz is the party that represents the true interests of the country. A rival foreign policy tradition caters “to the interests of others.” Of course, we know whom he has in mind: the socialists and the liberals who refrained from waging a war against the European Union but chose cooperation and compromise instead. He indicated today that there might be an inclination to exhibit this kind of opportunistic behavior given the immense “international attacks against us.” But it would be a mistake to take the easy road and avoid conflict with fellow diplomats on account of personal relations. The reaction should be exactly the opposite. Hungarian diplomats should be even more combative when international pressure is on the rise.

It is hard to know whether Viktor Orbán really believes it or not, but in this speech he had the temerity to accuse the western media of being in league with their governments. The Hungarian media is much freer and more independent, he said, than the media in western countries. Opinions in Hungarian newspapers and on internet news sites are much more varied because in Hungary the government in no way tries to influence journalists and reporters. The uniformly bad press his government has been receiving is therefore an orchestrated affair. Governments joined by journalists purposefully spread lies about the Hungarian government. A journalist friend of mine couldn’t help but be reminded of the Kádár regime when high party officials held very similar views about the role of journalists as lackeys of antagonistic, imperialist powers. I guess such attitudes derive from the very nature of dictatorship.

In addition, Orbán accused western governments of being ignorant of the true feelings of their citizens. They are not democratic enough, unlike the Hungarian government which made certain it would have a dialogue with the Hungarian people. He expressed his satisfaction with his earlier decision to launch a national consultation on the question of terrorism and immigration. “The reason we can steadfastly follow our refugee policies is because the voters clearly told us what we should do.” I hope you all remember those twelve leading questions the Hungarian government came up with back in April. Anyone who would like to refresh his or her memory should reread my post on the subject. They were leading, manipulative questionnaires sent out to more than 8 million voters, out of which only 1 million were returned. To bring up this “national consultation” as a mandate is one of the most cynical statements Orbán has ever uttered.

What else is wrong with the west? They are a hypocritical lot. Hungary “has been centuries behind in two-facedness.” Here is, for example, the French foreign minister who criticizes the Hungarian fence while the French government is building one. “And they are not ashamed.” Hungary is not alone in refusing to take in any refugees. The United States, he said, has categorically refused to take any refugees in order to lighten the European Union’s burden, which is not the case. His other example, Israel, cannot be taken seriously as an excuse for Hungary’s refusal to offer a new home for a few thousand refugees.

Otherwise there doesn’t seem to be any change in the stated aims of Hungarian immigration policy. Nobody should be let in, all the refugees should remain in Turkey, and Greece should not allow the refugees in. Hungary doesn’t want to have any immigrants because no nation should be forced by others to let in people it doesn’t want. These are the great man’s ideas.

And then came a seemingly unconnected reference to Hungary’s Roma population. Hungary’s historical lot is to live together with hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. “Someone sometime decided that it would be that way … but Hungary doesn’t ask other countries in Europe to take Hungarian Gypsies.” On the contrary, when they want to emigrate to Canada “we ask them to stay.” The truth of the matter is that Hungary wouldn’t mind at all if every Gypsy picked up and left, if only Canada would let them in. When the Canadian government put up posters in Miskolc, the city from which most of the Roma went to Canada, to tell them that they will be deported back, the Fidesz mayor of Miskolc created an international incident by telling Canada that it cannot “send its refugees to Miskolc,” i.e. cannot send the Hungarian Roma migrants back to where they came from. Some opposition parties found Orbán’s remarks concerning the Roma disrespectful.

The last topic I consider noteworthy in Orbán’s performance today was his answer to a question about “what differentiates the government’s policies from those of Jobbik.” He began by saying that “the government is not interested in the extreme right.” Hungary is a country where Jewish holidays can be celebrated on the streets without anyone having to go through electronic gates and being asked “whether you are a fascist animal.” What distinguishes Fidesz from Jobbik is “the general security,” whatever that means. So, he didn’t answer the question, for which he should be applauded. It would have been really painful to listen to his lies about the substantial ideological differences between Fidesz and Jobbik.

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Member

Quote:
“THE FIDESZ WILL RESTORE HUNGARY’S TATTERED REPUTATION.”
(Feb. 5, 2010, Millenaris Park – Viktor Orban)
Five years of hard work by the victor and Hungary’s so called “diplomats” show the results.
Original Quote: “A FIDESZ VISSZAÁLLÍTJA MAGYARORSZÁG MEGTÉPÁZOTT TEKINTÉLYÉT! (A viktor, 2010 Feb. 5 – Millennáris Park)

tappanch
Guest

There are 500 refugees on a meadow near Röszke tonight – there was not enough space in the camp. Half of them are women and children. The temperature is 10 degrees centigrade.

https://www.facebook.com/magyarinfo/videos/vb.85568463466/10153522867098467

ER1956
Guest

When are we going to overthrow this regime?

Is Finkelstein invincible in Hungary?

Lajos Renner
Guest

Simple… when you have the guts to unearth your munkásör submachine guns, gather enough towarishes to get the needed number to wage a coup d’état. Until that the only way is the ballot which in the last two elections went his way. Sorry Elvtársak either blood or ballot.

jamos lorant
Guest

Very strange reaction from Mr. Lajos Renner?

Please tell me:

Were only the communists the evil Hungarians?
Were the Christian extremists good Hungarians?

Are you ready to tolerate the FIDESZ thugs, but not the opposition demonstrations against the FIDESZ?

Are you for a fair constitution, but not for a FIDESZ police state?

Gabriel Wonna
Guest

Finkelstein is a genius, he cannot be defeated. Plus the entire New York – Tel Aviv axis is behind Finkelstein so it’s futile even to try. The Hungarian jews only complain to divert attention from the fact that they already control Hungary via Orban. Same old story.

Member

hahaha

exTor
Guest

Understandable response, ER1956, however we will have to wait for 2018. Presumably by then the Hungarian electorate will have had enough time to cogitate on the meaning of what Orbán has done, namely made Hungary into the shitheap of Europe [MAGYARORSZÁG: EUROPA SZARHALMA] because of his outrageous handling of the 2015 European refugee crisis.

Towards the aim of ridding Hungary of its Orbánian blight, many major negatives (as the previous two posts show) will have to be overcome. Blind acceptance of Orbánism and manifest antisemitism are Magyar handicaps that hold back Hungarians. These character defects are formidable and are ingrained in the Hungarian psyche. Ridding these defects is the necessary work needed to move Hungary forward into this new millennium.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

@exTor
September 8, 2015 at 4:20 am

I would venture to say that there are a fair “few” additional “character defects” of the Hungarian psyche that would also need to be “worked on” pretty hard for Hungarian society to become significantly less dysfunctional and mentally sick.

Like for instance the culture of grievance and constant whining about perceived wrongs and victimhood (panaszkultúra); an inability and unwillingness to take responsibility and be accountable like adults (the “it is always someone else’s fault” syndrome); the “let the neighbour’s cow croak” (dögöljön a szomszéd tehene) syndrome; (with relatively few and highly admirable exceptions:) a catastrophic lack of social solidarity and a chronic inability to get on with each other (összeférhetetlenség, egymás szakadatlan fúrása, a turáni átok); the inability and unwillingness to face up to an ugly national history which, as currently being purveyed, is full of myths, omissions, self-delusions, and straight-out fibbing and cover-ups; the Hungarian Institute of Historical Truth, and so on, and so on, …….. need I continue? ……..

That none of this is capable of being remedied by 2018 is dead cert (tuti), as certain as the sun rising on the east.

Maybe by 3018 or 4018; let’s hope so, anyway.

Nádas
Guest

How soon before Hungarian diplomats begin defecting to their host countries?

cseri
Guest

They were selected for loyalty to Fidesz. They will fight until the last bullet, don’t worry about them.

Nádas
Guest

As if to emphasize yesterday’s post (“The Hungarian Catholic Church Is Not Very Christian”) the bishop of Szeged has now weighed in on Pope Francis’s call for compassion toward the migrants: “His Holiness is wrong!”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/hungarian-bishop-says-pope-is-wrong-about-refugees/2015/09/07/fcba72e6-558a-11e5-9f54-1ea23f6e02f3_story.html

Incidentally, the bishop, László Kiss-Rigó, has long been rumored to have been a communist-era informer (“besugó”).

cseri
Guest

All bishops, and essentially all Catholic functionaries over the age current 43 (over 18 in 1990) were besúgó (informant).

It wasn’t just that catholic priest were informants — the state security apparatus had a veto about appointments. The communist spies were the so-called “főkegyúr” (the right of the feudal king to appoint top priests) so those senior priests were selected for loyalty to the communist state apparatus.

Kiss-Rigó and others are still loyal to the representatives of such state power, which is no wielded by fidesz-loyal state security officers. They were well-selected. They don’t care about Latin-American liberals, they care about what their overlords at Belügy (Ministry of Interior) expect. Popes come and go but the Belügy remains.

Member

Roman Catholicism, Hungarian-style.

Nádas
Guest

Goulash Catholicism?

Guest
If so it looks like Francis is adding apparently too too much spice to the dish which has blown out the bishop’s taste buds. Not surprised that Francis got the big ‘nem’ for its obvious his type of ‘social’ Catholicism is far far from being on the Magyar Church’s agenda today. And their agenda is to hold stubbornly the bastion of a European Christendom that arguably is being challenged greatly by continental migration. If Francis wants the Magyar Church to go into the ‘margins’ of the world in keeping with the ‘universalism’ of Catholicism he must now be very disappointed. He noted: ‘The Bishop has to be among his people in three ways: ahead of them pointing the way, keeping them and preventing them from being scattered; and behind them, ensuring them that no one is left behind, but also, and primarily so that the flock can find new paths’. And as an effect of being with his people he should ‘smell as his sheep’. New roads beckon certainly for a new chaotic time for Magyar Catholicism. I’m not sure they can manage it with current narrow-minded attitudes, attitudes which have been conditioned by centuries making it exceedingly difficult to… Read more »
Nádas
Guest

Getting in bed with the ruling power – monarchy, fascists, communists, Fidesz – seems to be the protocol for the Church in Hungary.

Member

Wooh, I like that!

Guest

Koszonom szepen Albrecht. But I will confess. That isn’t my line. I stole it from my Ir father-in-law. The Irish are pretty good with the ‘gift of the gab’. They can tell you to go to hell and you’d probably love every minute of it. Always thought the language of diplomacy should have been Gaelic instead of French. The French got away with one.

Guest

What I don’t understand is why the Hungarians have their refugee reception centers at great distances from the Austrian border, and even as far east as Debrecen?

Why not just immediately collect all arrivals across the Hungarian-Serbian border and give them something to eat and drink, then the middle of each day transport them in trains and buses straight to Hegyeshalom to a reception centre where the arrivals could be registered or not registered, as they wish, have a shower and then waved straight on to Austria?

After all, Greece and Italy are also members of the Schengen group, yet hardly register any of the arrivals landing on their shores.

This would also save the EU the cost of that useless border fence, though that would never of course work, because Hungarians would thereby miss out on another great opportunity for graft and skimming EU funds.

Guest

Anyway, insistence on registration of the arrivals would seem to be a pretty senseless and futile bureaucratic exercise, since most have no identity documentation on them, a lot carry fake identity documents, and all of them can tell the Hungarian authorities any story they wish, since the Hungarians have no way of verifying any of it.

This whole registration thing is completely stoopid farce, a genuine dumb and dumber jamboree on the part of the Hungarians.

Nádas
Guest

Earlier this year, the Szeged Office of Immigration and Citizenship was overwhelmed by the nightly capture/surrender of a “mere” 200-300 border crossers, mostly from Kosovo at that time. The office’s clerks were putting in 50-hour, 6-day weeks to keep up even then. By law and the Dublin Convention, Hungary is obligated to register, fingerprint and photograph them, and do background checks with Interpol, etc. Presumably, Greece and Italy are also under this obligation, whether they meet it or not.

Given the fact that Mohammed Atta (the Egyptian who led the 9/11 terrorists) was based in Hamburg, and that ISIS is on the move, it just makes common sense to know, as far as it is possible, who is entering the country and the EU, even if they have no legal identification.

Guest

@Nádas
September 8, 2015 at 2:15 am

You are right – theoretically.

However, the Dublin Convention was not designed to cope with circumstances currently prevailing over the Mediterranean and in Hungary.

In the current harrowing circumstances I don’t think Hungary should be any more obliged, or feel obliged than Italy or Greece, to comply with the letter of Dublin, and certainly not to cruelly enforce registration on those who would rather be registered in Germany or Sweden.

In any case, registration is fairly useless (though better of course than nothing) in circumstances where a fingerprint and photo can be taken, but it is absolutely and categorically impossible to verify a person’s real identity or police history through meaningful background checks.

After all, it is not as though Mohammed Atta, his colleagues, or his mushrooming ilk across Western countries today were not or are not “registered.” And in their case with their real identity, a “registration” that had proved pretty useless and is proving just as useless today.

What is needed is excellent intelligence coverage through lots of networks of informants and plants in jihadist circles, appropriate legislation, constant surveillance, and then the political and civil backbone to crush jihadism wherever it rears its ugly head.

That is all.

Guest

If Hungarians had half a brain, they would just wave the refugees and would-be economic immigrants straight onto Austria as quickly as possible and help them along the way.

If the Austrians had half a brain, they would just wave the refugees and would-be economic immigrants straight onto Germany and Sweden as quickly as possible and help them along the way.

The Germans and Swedes are more than happy to receive the refugees and would-be economic immigrants with open arms, and the refugees and would-be immigrants in turn are more than happy to be received with so much generosity and genuine kindness.

A marriage veritably made in heaven (… until the second generation begins the jihad against country of refuge of their parents, but that is not today’s concern …).

So right now what exactly is the problem?

Member

Re Mike Balint

Here in Sweden the labour market would collaps whitout the immigrants. We know that. They contribute to the economy greatly. We are happy with that.

Tyrker
Guest

“Greece should not allow the refugees in”

or if she does, she ought to register them all properly. Hungary is not the first stop in the EU. It’s the Greeks’ lot to register all refugees crossing their country, so that they need not be registered again in Hungary.

Gabor Toka
Guest
I know most will disagree but I think that this is probably the first time Orban really revealed himself as a racist. Whatever his critics say, beforehand he was always careful to provide believable non-racist arguments for whatever he did or said. And the more decent people in his fan club could find in this an excuse for supporting him (take as an example the conservative ecologist Andras Lanyi, who supports Orban’s refugee policy, see http://tinyurl.com/ohz4wms). But this speech has a slip of tongue comparable to Orban’s 2002 election battlecry that said sg like this “we [Fidesz, the right] cannot be in opposition because the nation cannot be in opposition”. This is how the Spectrum’s article presents this new milestone: “And then came a seemingly unconnected reference to Hungary’s Roma population. Hungary’s historical lot is to live together with hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. “Someone sometime decided that it would be that way … but Hungary doesn’t ask other countries in Europe to take Hungarian Gypsies.” …” This was not unconnected to the theme of refugees but a clear plea to consider the Roma in Hungary an equivalent of refugees from Syria: I do not ask you to take a… Read more »
Member

One must wonder have Tams Deutsch took the great news that is tolerated in Hungary….

Webber
Guest

Gábor Tóka, you are dead right, there is no mistaking the racism now, and this is very easy to demonstrate by just changing two words in part of Orbán’s speech as summarized by Eva. In place of “Hungary” we’ll use “America, and in place of “Roma,” let’s insert the word “Blacks.” Next, just for the heck of it, we can try “Germany” and “Jews.”
So… (note, Orbán actually used the word “Hungarians”, so I’ll use “Americans”)
Americans’ historical lot is to live together with hundreds of thousands of Blacks. “Someone sometime decided that it would be that way … but America doesn’t ask other countries to take American Blacks.”
Germans’ historical lot is to live together with hundreds of thousands of Jews. “Someone sometime decided that it would be that way … but Germany doesn’t ask other countries to take German Jews.”

Webber
Guest

Or this! Just translate it into Hungarian and see what reactions you get!
Romanians’ historical lot is to live together with hundreds of thousands of Hungarians. “Someone sometime decided that it would be that way … but Romania doesn’t ask other countries to take Romania’s Hungarians.”

exTor
Guest
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/09/07/viktor-orban-on-his-western-critics/#comment-101379 … exTor comment You make some good points, Mike Balint [5:15 AM]. I was too glib about the necessaries for the 2018 Hungarian election. While it may be possible to disabuse the Magyar electorate of the ‘goodness’ of Viktor Orbán by that time, I’m afraid that antisemitism is far too ingrained in most Magyars. The concomitant of Magyar antisemitism is Magyar antiRomaism. These two antis are historical and will not easily be undone. I’m cynical/realistic enough to believe that these two prime Hungarian antis will never be completely eradicated from the Magyar mentality. Anybody who thinks that things can change quickly should just look at the US. Many thought that the 2008 election of Barack Obama heralded a new postracial era, however the spate of killings of blacks by American cops clearly suggests otherwise. I recently heard a black woman (interviewed on CBC) say that things may be worse now for blacks in the United States. In Hungary, a new anti has arisen: antiMuslimism. While Hungarians cant kick out the Roma, who have been here for the better part of a millennium, they can [try to] keep out Muslims by saying that it’s not ‘appropriate’ that they live here… Read more »
Guest
@exTor September 8, 2015 at 7:07 am Yes, I spent my childhood and early teens on Svábhegy in Budapest, then in 1956 six months in various Hungarian refugee camps in Austria and Italy as an unaccompanied minor, until I was finally able to fly out to Australia, thanks to an Auntie in Perth, where within eighteen months I quickly picked up English and became Dux of school by the end of 1958. One can quickly adapt to a new land and language when one is a teenager. Whilst in Hungary and in the refugee camps, I experienced very virulent and violent forms of antisemitic bullying that left deep psychological scars which have never really healed over. A visit to Budapest in 2003 merely served to tear open those scars and reconfirm what I always knew about Hungarians. But it also served to strongly confirm my Jewish ethnic identity, which was a big plus. By the way, I missed three other characteristics that would need to be “worked on”: (1) the Hungarian penchant for Balkan-style corruption, (2) the predilection to suck up to social superiors whilst kicking social inferiors in the gut, and (3) the peculiar mix of autocracy, Christian Nationalism… Read more »
Guest
Interesting overview. Recently the anniversary of ‘Magna Carta’ was celebrated. That seminal document of the 13th century highlighted the battle between King John and the various sectors of his realm namely barons, knights etc over certain ‘rights’. Today it is considered one of the most famous documents of the world in constitutional history and on arbitrary and tyrannical rule. And it upheld one crucial principle in the setup of future democratic societies and that was the ‘rule of law’ applying to all. You know just reflecting on those 13th century days I find it almost strange that this new Magyar King John has reared his head and almost single-handedly appears to write his own constitution. And with apparently not a peep. All we hear is the sound of stamped rubber-seals. But at least then John had to put on some armor and joust a bit to get anywhere with those rambunctious and audacious noblemen. They weren’t going to go and give him a free pass at Runnymede. He certainly wasn’t going to be its sole author. Tough to see all that 13th century hard work go by in present day Magyar political consciousness and mentality. Apparently in some areas of… Read more »
Member

Above God, above the Pope, above the People there is Orban! That is very much the message of one of Orban’s foot soldiers.

“On Monday, the church’s spiritual leader for southern Hungary — scene of some of the heaviest migrant flows anywhere in Europe — had a message just as clear: His Holiness is wrong.

“They’re not refugees. This is an invasion,” said Bishop Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, whose dominion stretches across the southern reaches of this predominantly Catholic nation. “They come here with cries of ‘Allahu Akbar.’ They want to take over.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/hungarian-bishop-says-pope-is-wrong-about-refugees/2015/09/07/fcba72e6-558a-11e5-9f54-1ea23f6e02f3_story.html?utm_source=mandiner&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=mandiner_201509

tappanch
Guest

My dentist, who is Liberal, participated in several anti-Orban demonstrations, educated outside his profession too, told me today that he will vote for Orban. Because the democratic opposition has no voice, collapsed and it will be Orban vs Jobbik next time.

In addition, Orban is right about the mass migration, other European leaders lost their mind by thinking that they can integrate millions of Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis.

Remarks.
1. German vice chancellor Gabriel (SPD) said today that Germany is capable of receiving half a million immigrants for several years.

2.
While the unemployment rate in Germany is at a 25-year low at this moment,

Citibank reports that Italy and Portugal will come next at defaulting on their debts.

Expected unemployment rates:
Greece: 32.4%
Spain: 27.9%
Portugal 18.3%

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100025913/citi-forecasts-greek-devastation-unstoppable-debt-spirals-in-italy-and-portugal/

3.
The question remains: why German businesses are pushing to accept millions of migrants from the Middle East, when there are millions of unemployed in Southern [and Eastern] Europe ?

tappanch
Guest

Yesterday a record number of refugees/migrants crossed into Macedonia from Greece: 7000.

tappanch
Guest

Lowest unemployment rates in June 2015 (seasonally adjusted)

Germany 4.7%
Malta 5.5%
UK 5.6%
Luxembourg 5.7%
Czech Republic 5.9%
Austria 6.0%
Denmark 6.2%

Netherlands 6.9%
Sweden 7.4%

Source: public data provided by google

exTor
Guest

I am confused here, tappanch. When you write that “Orbán is right about mass migration”, are you speaking for yourself or for your dentist? Is your dentist a liberal or a Liberal? There is a distinction.

MAGYARKOZÓ

tappanch
Guest

This was my dentist’s opinion.

My opinion is this:

In the last half a year, Orban put up billboards against the migrants/refugees in Hungarian to gain popularity. He used the issue to make new laws to create a
potentially police state.

He lied so many times, that he himself did not believe his own words of last Spring, and did not prepare for this influx.

He disgraced Hungary by the disorganization and callousness the Hungarian state shows towards the refugees/migrants.

Will the children of the Middle Eastern immigrants be integrated in Europe?
A large percentage will not – the French and British experience show this.

Are there hundreds of terrorists among the tens of thousands of refugees?
You bet. They can create new identities now. They will wreak havoc in Europe when the orders come.

I will never vote for Orban.

arpad
Guest

I agree with your remarks, Tappanch.
Pragmatism is needed.
True, France and England were flooded by poorly educated North African and Asian immigrants.
At the same time, a good number of educated people also came.
The poor will need more time to be integrated.

Terror – the blame has to placed at the feet of the Turkish, Syrian, Palestinian, Iranian, Pakistani, Russian, Chechen leaders who sponsor the terrorists.

Germany was once the place of a huge refugee wave. The Palestinian refugees came from Amman, following the 1970 Black September. Many of them were controlled by Arafat, and indirectly by the Soviet Union. Many of them wanted to cut their ties to Arafat. I met some of them in Zirndorf.

A year later, the terror reached the Munich Olympic Games.

Wardak
Guest
Your dentist isn’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, I’m afraid. Though it’s useful to know how some people think. We are in 2015 but he decides already to vote for Orban (who is looking ever more burnt out) in 2018? Your dentist is angry and frustrated, probably at the impotent and nonexistent leftist opposition. Jobbik has even an own TV station, I learned, that’s beside the weeklies, various internet sites etc., the leftist parties have literally nothing. I agree, but to pledge three years before any election to support the most corrupt Eastern European leader (behind Putin) is kind of crazy, certainly desperate. People are shitting into their pants because of “terrorists”, apparently. These supposed terrorists could come to Europe at any time, they don’t have to mingle with the refugees. Why would they? It’s pretty easy to come to Europe and it’s easy to obtain a passport in these countries and then enter a port legally or by car. Moreover, most of the recent terrorists were entirely homegrown (born in a Western-European country) they were not immigrants. I understand that people don’t want to apologize for celebrating Christmas or eating pork, but this obsession with the potential terrorism,… Read more »
exTor
Guest

“… when the orders come.”

Where did that come from, tappanch? This is Orbánthink and Jobbikthink. How could you assume (or even presume) that there are ‘terrorists-to-be’ amongst the refugees? This is out-and-out scaremongering.

As for assimilation, contrary to your perspective, most of the offspring of the refugees will be more than well-integrated into Europe.

You’re the one with all the facts & figures. Provide proof of your ludicrous position that “the French and British experience show[s]” that “a large percentage” of “the children of the Middle Eastern immigrants” “will not” “be integrated in[to] Europe.”

I’m surprised and disappointed by you, tappanch.

MAGYARKOZÓ

tappanch
Guest

“How could you assume (or even presume) that there are ‘terrorists-to-be’ amongst the refugees? ”

Of course, there are. Da’esh said that they would be coming to Europe. It is very easy to get to Turkey from Syria and Iraq.
99% are bona fide refugees and immigrants looking for better life. But 1% of one million people is still ten thousand, as you know

Islamists believe it to be a divine order to make Muhammad’s vision of society the only one existing in the world. Unfortunately, his vision is NOT democracy. Read the Hadiths.

Tagorr
Guest

@tappanch:

Stop obsessing with “potential” terrorists. With all the terrorism Western Europe is the safest place on earth and will remain so.

In the US the “usual” gun violence kills several times more people than “terrorism” — the definition of which is now extremely vague even in the US but, in China if you are critical of the government you could prosecuted as a terrorist. In the US if you are a journalist you could be a spy. Sooner or later everybody will be a “potential” terrorist.

There will always be crazy mass murderers.

Guest
@Tagorr September 8, 2015 at 11:50 am — “With all the terrorism Western Europe is the safest place on earth and will remain so.” — True. For the moment. Except of course for hapless, externally identifiable Jews, the canaries in the coalmine, as usual. They are getting threatened, bullied, brutalized and even murdered left, right and center, right now, “in the safest place on earth.” But that of course is no doubt the least of your concerns. And good morning to you too, sunshine. — “There will always be crazy mass murderers.” — Yeah, some are random, like the mental cases all over the US. And not just those indulging in gun violence over there, but car-driving drunks and the drug-befogged in cars and out, that kill in even greater numbers than the gun-toting nutters. But none of them kill to terrorize; personal vengeance on individuals or society as a whole is the principal motive, or motiveless carelessness or just plain accidents. Civilization and society remain unthreatened by these killers. Others however are ideological and systemic, like the anarchists, the red army factions, and the old bolsheviks used to be. Today it is the jihadists’ turn, whose numbers are growing… Read more »
Guest

Thanks, Tagorr!

I would never have thought that people here would use the same kind of reasoning re the refugees as Orbán, Vona, breitbart and other right wing loonies!
Now I’m outta here!

Guest
@exTor September 8, 2015 at 10:10 am Not so fast exTor. Since the war, three models of integration have emerged in Europe: MULTICULTURALISM in Britain, which involves: Naturalisation/citizenship for all, official respect for ethnic and religious differences, government support and funding of ethnic and cultural separatism for those who wish it, violent, gang-ridden slums of second, third and fourth generation ex-Carribean blacks and ex-South Asian Moslems, second and third generation jihad against Britain and the West by a minority of Moslems from all social classes, from the most educated to the least educated levels. Plenty of work opportunities are available to those Moslem Brits who wish to take advantage of them. UNICULTURALISM in France, which involves: Naturalisation/citizenship for all, expectation and pressure for all to become French in language, culture and loyalty, violent, gang-ridden slums and no-go areas of second, third and fourth generation Moslems from the Maghreb and Sub-Saharan Africa, second and third generation jihad against France and the West by a minority of Moslems from least assimilated, least educated levels. Work opportunities tend to be limited to the relatively few skilled Moslems and to the relatively small well-assimilated Moslem middle class who have become French for all intents… Read more »
Guest

@exTor
September 8, 2015 at 10:10 am

A conjecture about the German model:

It may well be that the paucity of jihadist activity among Moslem youth in Germany might have something to do with the fact that until now the vast majority of them were of Turkish or Kurdish descent, people who have so far shown little penchant for jihadism.

However, the impending injection of hundreds of thousands or even millions of Sunni Arabs over the coming years from the Fertile Crescent and Central Asia may well result in much more active jihadism in Germany once the second generation begin to reach their late teen years.

This however need not eventuate, if the Germans succeed in finding effective preventative measures to forestall it coming to pass, and manage to successfully integrate their Sunni Arab youth.

If not, well, better not to say ……

Guest

@exTor
September 8, 2015 at 10:10 am

Correction:

Central Asians (and South Asians) are of course just Sunnis, not Sunni Arabs, as implied above.

Guest

There is another big difference between the immigrants in France and Britain on one side and in Germany on the other side:
We Germans asked those immigrants to come as “guest workers”, starting in the 1960s and many stayed and have families now, so most of them are well integrated.
Many immigrants in France and Britain however were “remnants” of the empires – France in Africa, especially in Northern Africa – where they didn’t treat the Moroccans, Tunisians etc very nice and had bitter wars before the former colonies became independent.
And a similar thing happened within the former British Empire – the Brits didn’t want to leave their colonies and many people still remember how badly they were treated by the Brits!

Guest
@wolfi September 8, 2015 at 12:08 pm Yeah Wolfi, but after the war the Brits and the French were just as desperate as the Germans for vast additional resources of manual labour, and asked people from their former colonies to come and work in Britain and France, just as the Germans asked the Turks to come and be gastarbeiters in Germany. In the case of the British, in addition to Moslems and Hindus from newly independent Pakistan, respectively, who were allowed and indeed encouraged to come to work in Britain, there were also large numbers of Moslem and Hindu Indian refugees from newly independent African countries, who were originally imported there by the Brits to be labourers on infrastructure projects and plantations, but in time became a prosperous middle class that the blacks however were no longer prepared to tolerate in their midst. Then there were the Nepalese Ghurkas from the army who opted to settle in Britain and Tamil refugees from newly independent Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) who were of course not Moslem. And not least vast numbers of blacks and ethnic Indians in the very first wave of post-war immigration to Britain from the then still British possessions… Read more »
petofi
Guest

And your knee-jerk, political correctness is tiresome to me, exTor…

When the Eiffer Tower will be blown up with a nuclear, suitcase bomb and Paris will become uninhabitable for 500 years, what will you say then? “Oh, we should’ve been stricter…” It will be too late.

In the age of potential nuclear terrorism, there are no second chances, or corrective antidotes–

Guest

Just like Hiroshima was blown up by those American terrorists?
The number of people killed in the last wars is so much higher than that killed by all terrorist attacks together …

Member

I love when people throw in “political correctness”, in fact mistake “political correctness” with personal standards, morals and convictions. You have compassion? Just because you use political correctness. You not hate all gypsies? You try to be politically correct. You not believe in little Syrian kids fleeing their country so they can set the world on fire? Oh, you try to be politically correct?

wolfi, you are not politically correct. You are a human being using common sense, do not throw prejudice on all as a towel to cover a whole race. Jee, you have great morals! I do think you are great!

ER1956
Guest

Petofi you are still 100 % right.

All human rights activists are forgetting to blame the Russian, Syrian, Iranian, and Turkish leaders for the genocide in Syria.

The true refugees need help but the terrorist agents who enter Europe in refugee disguise must be spotted and sent to Guantanamo.

Reality Check
Guest

Are not those from EU member states free to come and seek employment in Germany?

Member

I am heartbroken to see that Orban played his cards well all along. His propaganda invested from Hungarian taxpayers money is well invested. Hungarians like sheep follow. If I recall from my limited historical knowledge it was Hitler who offered the best alternatives for the problems of Germany, and most idiots (did not matter how educated they were) lined up behind him because there was no alternative?!!! Conscience should be an alternative. How about that? Not to run Hungary into an other Trianon should be an alternative. Not to become the pariah of the World again would be an alternative! No, that would be to simple! Doing something takes work, lining up behind a mentally unstable hypocrite who gave away the country to his friends became the solution for many Hungarians. I rest my case. Hungary cannot be saved from herself!

Member
I do not often quote from wikipedia, so take this with a grain of salt: “During the last decades of the 19th century and the early decades of the 20th century, the United States saw an immigration boom primarily of Southern and Eastern Europeans, among them approximately 650,000-700,000 ethnic Hungarian speakers. Unlike the educated classes who formed the core of the 1849 wave, the second Hungarian wave was mostly poor and uneducated immigrants seeking a better life in America.” I wonder about their motivations… Maybe America should send back their descendants. Who knows what kind of ideas they are harbouring. I know many of them support Hungary, and even they support Orban. Some supports Gyurcsany. Maybe they want to take over the USA. I have seen Facebook pages from Americans who declare themselves Hungarians. Very worrisome. I am telling you all, those Hungarians with their dances and singing will take over the States. I know a few Hungarian criminals too who came to the States hiding between other Hungarians. We do not know who they are, so I think you should consider voting for Trump, and he will pack up all who declared themselves as Hungarian descent, and will send… Read more »
Tyrker
Guest

“The harsh deterrents adopted by Hungary and Australia — currently the subject of widespread condemnation — may come to seem more normal.
If Europe’s politicians move down that path, they will be accused — rightly — of failing to live up to “European values”. But, in reality, they face a clash of values. Ms Merkel has said Europe has a moral and legal obligation to accept genuine refugees. But politicians operating in a democracy also have a moral and legal obligation to respect the wishes of their voters.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7089ce94-5543-11e5-b029-b9d50a74fd14.html

Guest

@Tyrker
September 8, 2015 at 10:06 am

Welcome to the clash of civilizations, so stubbornly denied by bleeding heart champaigne socialist and limousine liberal ostriches with their heads safely buried in the sand.

Guest
You know I won’t discount that ‘clash’ but here in the States I don’t see a problem with that and the country arguably has consistently taken in refugees of all creeds and color from around the world throughout this century. The melting pot for the most part works. I’d like to think that when some get here from the ME they realize that it was dopey to yell at the top of their lungs, ‘Death to America!!!’ If we believed all refugees thought like this well where would we be? Where would the world be? We have a pluralistic society here which seems to be working. In my opinion, if anything will go wrong and off the deep end here the problem will stem from ignoring attention to ‘minority’ affairs or on the other end having politicos effect harangues directed against them. How can a society have a good , healthy functioning citizenry when certain segments are pilloried for who they are as we see with Hungary? And let’s go further. Also offering protection to those who are abused within that society. Unfortunately, I’d suggest that, ‘minority affairs’, is the albatross that Europe has worn on its neck for quite… Read more »
Member

For those who love to share their personal believe on how much the people of Germany share their xenophobia:
Anti-Nazi song from 1993 reaches top of German charts after attacks on migrants
( I guess the Germans cannot be bought again with Cheap propaganda. Many Hungarians have a lot to learn!)

http://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/anti-nazi-song-from-1993-reaches-top-of-german-charts-after-attacks-on-migrants-1.2552744

Guest

Not too much OT (posted this already on pol.hu):

To show the difference between Orbanistan and Germany:
The German Telekom has offered concrete help for the refugees in Germany:
https://www.telekom.com/medien
A few points:
They offer WLAN in the places were refugees will live.
They offer unused buildings.
They offer work places.
The Telekom university will offer stipends for qualified students …

spectator
Guest

The definition of “terrorist” is rather interesting, mostly depends on who and in what point of time define it. One days terrorists easily can become the next day freedom fighters and vice versa, as the mainstream political interest indicates it.
Plenty of examples around, any given time.

Guest

@spectator
September 8, 2015 at 1:02 pm

I think it is a disingenuous categorial confusion to conflate nationalist or ethnic terrorists-cum-freedom fighters with fundamentalist Moslem jihadists, because I cannot for the life of me see that the jihadists are fighting for the freedom of anyone or anything, or for even their own freedom, particularly those born in Western countries, where freedom is a birthright.

On the contrary, the fight of jihadists is for enslaving, terrorizing, brutalizing, raping and beheading others. They are crusading fanatics with a mission to subdue the world for the Prophet. Their cruelty and barbarism is unmatched even by Mexican and Colombian drug gangs. They are bikie gangs writ large, very large. They are nobody’s freedom fighters.

spectator
Guest

Mike please, remember I didn’t mentioned any particular group, it was a purely theoretical remark from my part. Mostly, because the definition get used just about whichever reason nowadays.

Remember as well to the Taliban too, as the most infamous case, but there are quite a number of South American, African or Middle Eastern rebel organisations which got labelled on during their existence.

Regarding this particular group you are right, of course.

Webber
Guest

To back what Spectator said – Mike Balint, would you call the Marxist Kurdish group PKK a terrorist organization? As you surely know, PKK is one of the few groups effectively fighting against ISIS, and winning. Yet, because of PKK’s actions in Turkey, and PKK’s Marxist ideology, for many people and governments, and for the majority of Turks, PKK is undoubtedly a terrorist organization.
So, in your view, what is PKK? Whatever you say, someone will surely disagree with you.

tappanch
Guest

Migrant acceptance rates, 2014

[of course, to see the full picture,
we should also look at the decisions/(asylum requests) ratio too]

(accepted as a % of all decisions)

Bulgaria 94.2%

Sweden 76.6%
Cyprus 76.2%
Malta 72.6%
Switzerland 70.5%

Denmark 67.7%
Netherlands 66.7%
Norway 63.9%

Germany 41.6%
UK 38.6%
France 21.6%

Greece 14.8%
Hungary 9.4%
comment image

spectator
Guest

At the same time in Hungary:
comment image
Source: Index

The “lady” wearing the denim shirt and kicking a young girl was there as the cameraman of the N1TV – a radical Hungarian TV channel, close to Jobbik. There is another clip, where she trips a father running with his child from the police, then she calmly sidesteps and filming the man and child whirling around on the ground…
The whole story – in Hungarian, but you don’t really need to read it.

http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/08/menekulo_kigyerekbe_rugott_a_jobbik-tv_operatore_roszkenel/

Yeah, and all the while she wishing for the water cannons, it can be heard on her own clip.

When it came to surface she’s been sacked, and her employer declared that “the case closed” from their part. DK and PM made a report of the abuse…

What a frigging lowlife!

Reality Check
Guest
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