Viktor Orbán reveals himself to be a racist

The Hungarian media, as usual, are split when it comes to evaluating Jean-Claude Junker’s state of the union address. Those on the left consider it a very tough speech with pointed messages to Viktor Orbán. After all, he condemned the Orbán government even though he didn’t explicitly mention Hungary, but everybody knows about the appalling conditions the asylum seekers have to endure once they cross into Hungary. He promised to look into the fate of the money given to member states that may not have been used for its intended purpose. He stressed that giving assistance to the asylum seekers is a humanitarian and not a religious question. He warned EU member countries to obey EU law, which includes offering asylum to those who are eligible for refugee status. As for the defense of EU borders, Juncker said that the answer lies in a joint effort at border defense. Juncker announced the introduction of the quota system. Moreover, he indicated that, if necessary, the European Commission has the means to force reluctant member states to comply with the directives of the European Union.

At the moment it is impossible to predict the final outcome of the struggle between “national egotism” and “Europe,” although Juncker optimistically predicted that the former “will be defeated in this migration crisis.” Still, he had to admit that at present “there is neither Europe nor Union.” Europe in this context means “European values” and Union, “solidarity.”

Juncker avoided any reference to “Christian values.” By contrast, one of Viktor Orbán’s arguments against accepting refugees from the Middle East is their non-Christian religious background. Slovak and Hungarian attitudes are very similar in this respect. Robert Fico announced that his country is willing to accept 250 migrants, but they must be Christians. The Hungarian government, which incessantly talks about “Christian Europe,” wasn’t that blatant until yesterday. Zoltán Balog, while attending a conference in Paris, defended the current Hungarian immigration policy by revealing that during 2013 and 2014 1,000 Egyptian and Iraqi Christian families received asylum and citizenship in Hungary. All this, he said, was done in secret. I must say that I am dubious about the truthfulness of this piece of news. I can’t see how in a relatively small country the government can grant citizenship to 1,000 families (or approximately 4,000-5,000 people) without anyone noticing it.

The newcomers’ faith is not, however, the only disqualifying criterion as far as Viktor Orbán is concerned. Orbán’s critics claim that racism is the moving force behind his steadfast opposition to admitting any of the asylum seekers. As we have discussed earlier, Viktor Orbán didn’t always oppose immigration. In fact, he thought it would foster economic growth. Most likely he still thinks that an additional 100,000-150,000 immigrants over the next few years would benefit the Hungarian economy. But not these kinds of people. Not people whose skin color is a shade darker than our own.

On what basis can we charge the Hungarian prime minister with racism? In the past, Orbán has always been careful to draft his speeches in such a way that it would be difficult to accuse him of racism, irredentism, anti-Semitism, fascism, or Nazism. But, according to his critics, in the speech he delivered to the Hungarian ambassadors on September 7 his caution abandoned him and he revealed himself to be an outright racist. Here is the passage:

Hungary’s historical given is that we live together with a few hundred thousands Roma. This was decided by someone, somewhere. This is what we inherited. This is our situation, this is our predetermined condition…. We are the ones who have to live with this, but we don’t demand from anyone, especially not in the direction of the west, that they should live together with a large Roma minority.

The first comment on this speech, as far as I could ascertain, came from András Jámbor of kettosmerce.blog.hu. He called Orbán a racist because he treats the Roma as separate and distinct, perhaps even a burden.

In my opinion, an analysis by one of the readers of Hungarian Spectrum is much more astute. According to Gábor Tóka, professor of sociology at the Central European University, this is “a clear plea to consider the Roma in Hungary an equivalent of refugees from Syria: ‘I do not ask you to take a quota of the Roma, so in return you should not ask me to take a quota of the refugees.'” There is only one way to avoid this interpretation but, in his opinion, it is not any better. Perhaps Orbán considers “both [the Mid-Eastern refugees and the Roma] a burden, an economically unproductive mass living on welfare. Here the problem is not simply with how wrong, prejudiced and evil this premise is, but with the idea that ethnicity means (under)class and vice versa. Whichever of the two interpretations you take, the end result is the same: Orbán declared himself to be not simply like-minded with the far-right on immigration but specifically highlighted his racism as a reason for this policy choice.” I consider Gábor Tóka’s analysis to be spot on.

This is what Viktor Orbán wants to avoid

This is what Viktor Orbán wants to avoid

In Hungary this crucial passage was largely ignored, perhaps because the “Roma issue” is something few Hungarians like to talk about. But this passage provides a window into Viktor Orbán’s mindset. Orbán is not so worried about the fate of Christian Europe as he is about racial purity, which has already been compromised by former colonial powers like Great Britain and France and lately by countries like Germany and Sweden.

And so the European Union now has a prime minster who not only embraces illiberal democracy if not worse but who also espouses racist sentiments.

Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
György Lázár
Guest

I decided to call Orbán’s system “Magyarheid” (magyar + apartheid). He thinks that the Roma and the Jews are not Hungarians, while ethnic Germans in Hungary are “true Hungarians”. Magyarheid is mixture magyar nationalism and apartheid mixed with a “ranking system”… e.g. liberal Count Mihály Károlyi is not a “real Hungarian”, but pro-Horthy Count János Esterházy is a “true Hungarian” despite the fact that his mother was Polish.

We-2015
Guest

Watch this repulsive speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQi_qsOIhMo

This is a step above the stupid speeches of Khrushchev and Brezhnev.

Improvement is based on the advice from Finkelstein, and on motivation from Ahmadinejad.

gyogyitgathatnank
Guest

The Fidesz/Jobbik coalition ended the independence of Hungary. Act II in style of Horthy.
The Hungarians became hired hands.
The orders are coming from Moscow, and Tehran.
Isn’ it true?

Nádas
Guest

Tehran? Be serious.

Latefor
Guest

“True Hungarians” are also those minorities who feel Hungarian and fight for the best interest of the Hungarian nation. And those, who recognize ongoing provocations for what it is: systematic sh#t stirring.

Guest

I’d suggest that right now Hungary is getting ready for a litmus test on its identity that it has been carrying around for centuries. Question is is that identity malleable and flexible enough to deal with the great changes coming toward its relatively closed and homogenous society?

If not there arguably will be more dispute over who are the ‘true’, ‘real’ and ‘genuine’ Hungarians as values get ‘re-evaluated’ in such a way that it deleteriously affects civic discourse when it comes to dealing with the great issues the country faces today.

I would think that as the refugees are now flowing relentlessly into ‘Europe’ they are at least to thoughtful and serious Hungarians making them assess who and what they are as a nation and individuals in the face of that influx. It’s s time for probably self-knowledge or maybe an identity crisis. It’s up in the air where it’ll be.

Guest

@Rikard
September 9, 2015 at 11:23 pm

Hungarian identity over the centuries included only those who counted as Hungarian nobility, many of whom were not even Hungarian speaking, and no one else in the Kingdom of Hungary actually counted as a member of the “Hungarian Nation.”

Modern Hungarian identity is in turn a 19th century construct, which has come to include a very large percentage of other ethnicities who became magyarised in the course of the 19th and 20th centuries.

Except of course for Jews and Gypsies, who are refused grass roots recognition as Hungarians and excluded from the “Hungarian Nation” by popular will, regardless of their Hungarian citizenship.

(I hasten to point out however, that this is no different than anywhere else in Eastern Europe or the Balkans.)

Guest
Re: “Except of course for Jews and Gypsies, who are refused grass roots recognition as Hungarians and excluded from the “Hungarian Nation” by popular will, regardless of their Hungarian citizenship” You know I’d think perhaps there would be some edification in putting the country under psychiatric analysis to consider why it is so endearing for Magyarorszag to have apparently a principle of denigrating their vilified minorities who live in the country. The amount of energy directed to them is incredible. Amazing how the supposed ‘weak’ irk the supposed strong. If that is Magyar ‘identity’ then it is obvious the nation is emotionally crippled. It is like a morbidly ‘sick eagle looking at the sky’. If I am considered ‘Magyar’ looking at my ancestral country from another border I am an ‘outsider’ in more than one way one. Not for me those ‘igens’ in that Magyar way, truth and life. At this point it would appear their political and moral compass is so out of whack that an internal psychic revolution needs to be done in order for them to orient the country on to a better road. To say the one they are on is rutted would be an understatement.… Read more »
Guest

@Rikard
September 10, 2015 at 9:34 am

Amen, brother.

Except that such an internal psychic revolution will never ever happen in Hungary.

Guest

Perhaps maybe then. Or maybe not. To paraphrase a fiery revolutionary back here in our late 18th , the irascible Thomas Paine, ‘These are the times that try men’s souls’.

Magyarorszag would do well to have a man of ‘common sense’ arguing vociferously for equality of rights and against monarchic/ autocratic rule. He certainly couldn’t tolerate ‘dictators’. In his day they called them ‘tyrants’. Maybe it could be night table reading for the opposition. They appear they can use a catalyst from somewhere out of the past.

Webber
Guest

“the best interest of the Hungarian nation” – Define it.
For some, supporting the Prime Minister regardless of what he does is “in the best interest of the Hungarian nation.” For others, the Prime Minister is precisely the person who is doing the most damage to the Hungarian nation. (How did you, personally, view Kádár? How about Gyurcsány? Gyurcsány, also, was a legally elected PM.)
For one person, “the best interest of the Hungarian nation” can mean tripping a refugee child. For someone else, that means shouting “I hope you die” or spitting at refugees. For others, Hungarians who trip children and spit on refugees have, in a small way, blackened the name of all Hungarians, while those Hungarian volunteers who help the needy, regardless of their background, are acting in the best interest of the Hungarian nation.

Webber
Guest

If you criticized Gyurcsany and denounced the actions of the Hungarian police, in English, in 2006-7, were you a provocateur? (provocation is your term LateFor) Were those who spoke negatively about the Hungarian government in 2006 provocateurs? When Viktor Orbán and his colleagues in Fidesz spoke in international fora about what the police did and what the Gyurcsány government did, and asked international human rights organizations to investigate (they did – and the reports are damning), was that a provocation?
Criticiz

Webber
Guest

LateFor – Finally – Ordinary people keep quiet about power. Brave people criticize it. Syncophants support it. Having seen what you have posted here, I think we all know which category you are in.

Member

Agree with you Webber!

Guest

@Latefor
September 9, 2015 at 10:23 pm

Sputtering does not help. Time to look in the mirror and face up to what you see.

Latefor
Guest
@ Mike Balint – I looked in the mirror and I fell in love with my image. How about that for true Hungarian narcissism? 🙂 Here is a beautiful poem for you from one of my favourite Jewish Hungarian poets: Miklos Radnoti. I think he pretty much sums it up what it takes to have a Hungarian soul: Nem tudhatom, hogy másnak e tájék mit jelent, nekem szülőhazám itt e lángoktól ölelt kis ország, messzeringó gyerekkorom világa. Belőle nőttem én, mint fatörzsből gyönge ága s remélem, testem is majd e földbe süpped el. Itthon vagyok. S ha néha lábamhoz térdepel egy-egy bokor, nevét is, virágát is tudom, tudom, hogy merre mennek, kik mennek az uton, s tudom, hogy mit jelenthet egy nyári alkonyon a házfalakról csorgó, vöröslő fájdalom. Ki gépen száll fölébe, annak térkép e táj, s nem tudja, hol lakott itt Vörösmarty Mihály, annak mit rejt e térkép? gyárat s vad laktanyát, de nékem szöcskét, ökröt, tornyot, szelíd tanyát, az gyárat lát a látcsőn és szántóföldeket, míg én a dolgozót is, ki dolgáért remeg, erdőt, füttyös gyümölcsöst, szöllőt és sírokat, a sírok közt anyókát, ki halkan sírogat, s mi föntről pusztitandó vasút, vagy gyárüzem, az bakterház s a bakter… Read more »
Member

Shame that you cover your “Hungarianism” with a poem by a poet who were killed by those who did not consider him to European and allowed to walk to his death by your “True Hungarians”. You think you are funny with your little cutesy joke, but it is only funny for the True Hungarians like you. If Radnoti would be alive, I assure he would open his heart. He was as much not welcomed in this country as the current refugees aren’t.

Latefor
Guest

Some1 – Can I get your approval to love Miklos Radnoti? Can I get your approval to read his poems? Can I get your approval to adore him? Can I get your approval to cry for him? Can I get your approval to refer to his love for his country?
The war ended in 1945. Stop hating and open your heart to the Hungarians of today. Give us a chance to move on to a better world. P L E A S E 🙁

Webber
Guest

Latefor – I will not and cannot speak for Some1 or Mike Balint. I can only tell you that my criticism of what you have posted, above, is personal. Don’t you dare act as if what I wrote were about “the Hungarians.” That’s a low, rhetorical trick. You represent only yourself – don’t try to invoke an entire nation when someone points out problems with what you say. It’s all about you and what you have said and done on this forum. It is about you and you alone. That is the mirror you need to look into. Time to stop pretending that you=Hungarian nation. You don’t.

Latefor
Guest

Webber – suddenly I’ve become the enemy. . 🙁 In this case, may I rephrase my comment to Mike Balint? Would it make you happy if I would lie down and die since you’ve never ever called the Hungarian people in Australia “useless scumbags”? Was it me , me alone who is a “useless scumbag”? Before you come to the defence of some of the abusers in here “Webber” dearest, let me tell you something: I’ ve never ever been short for words. Also, I have a pretty good idea where you are heading. Just for future reference: “Do not mess with a country girl who can run a backhoe!” 🙂

Webber
Guest

Latefor – if you defend power, if you defend the reprehensible actions of any government, you have no one to blame but yourself for the reaction.
I certainly have never called anyone a “useless scumbag,” here or anywhere else.
If you’ll look at my posts in the past, you’ll find that I have, from time to time, told numerous people that any (positive or negative) generalizations about Hungarians (or any other nation) are wrong and unfair. Yours included.
I actually happen to be from the country (not that it matters – city folks can be plenty tough). Where I’m from, most people don’t talk much with liars. So, g’day to you.

Latefor
Guest

Webber- why do you call me a”liar”? This is a very serious allegation. Or should I just add this to my “collection”?

Webber
Guest

Let’s start, and stop, with your conflation of yourself with the Hungarian nation as a whole, and your implicit repeated suggestion that criticism of the Hungarian government is criticism of the entire nation. I find that insincere, to put it mildly.
I can only guess what your “collection” consists of, but I am certain that I personally have never been vulgar with you. Let’s just leave it at that, shall we?

Latefor
Guest

Webber said: “Let’s start, and stop, with your conflation of yourself with the Hungarian nation as a whole, and your implicit repeated suggestion that criticism of the Hungarian government is criticism of the entire nation. I find that insincere, to put it mildly.”

I’m outraged by your comment. Since I’m Hungarian-born, I find GENERALIZED attacks against Hungarians PERSONAL. Most of the abusers in here using the term “the Hungarians” not “SOME HUNGARIANS”. I’m sick of itemizing the ongoing abuses against the Hungarian people. You are doing your best to twist and turn my comments, but those who read the Hungarian Spectrum know and understand my stand on the above issues. I have never ever tried to suggest that criticizing the government is the same as criticizing the entire nation. This is what some of you want the readers to believe. I have issues with some of the commentators in here who take unbelievable pleasure in rubbishing “the Hungarian people”. (The Orban Government doesn’t need me to defend them).

Let just leave it at that, dear Webber. 🙂

Webber
Guest

Another lie, Latefor “I’m outraged by your comment.” I can just imagine. You can’t sleep.
Your faux outrage is so yesterday. And how you seem to savour being “nationally insulted!”, confirming what I say about your conflation of self with nation. (again, I defy you to find me denigrating the Hungarian nation – I have never done such a thing; this is all about you and you alone. I, too, stand here without a “people.” For once, please be decent enough to represent just yourself in your comments to me.)
You do realize, don’t you, that people can look at all your past comments on this blog? A glance through them confirms every single thing I have said in response to you (above and in the past).

Latefor
Guest

Webber – “You do realize, don’t you, that people can look at all your past comments on this blog? A glance through them confirms every single thing I have said in response to you (above and in the past).”
Yes, I do realize. I had a good training since 2006 what to do and what not to do, therefore up until now, I made sure to comment mindfully in order to eliminate the possibility of future blackmail. One can never be too careful, you know how it is in a big wild world? 🙂

Member

Yes, you can get my approval!
If you want to move on, you should start like opening your heart to others than your own needs. It is You an the likes who can open their heart. My heart is fully open. Hungary is s all country, and my heart is open for all! My heart is open for those who are decent, aside from race, gender and religion.
You in fact should read Radnoti, and put his poems in context, since you learned nothing from him, about him, and you learned nothing about where hate takes a whole nation! Pleas, please read Radnoti, and try to understand him too!

Latefor
Guest

Some1 – “My heart is fully open. Hungary is s all country, and my heart is open for all! My heart is open for those who are decent, aside from race, gender and religion.”

And where is your generous “heart open for all” from: from Canada? The Hungarian people are doing their best to help these people, at least according to our news in Australia. A small ex-communist country, struggling to survive and now slowly becoming a refugee camp for Europe? Hungary needs help not ongoing belting!

“You in fact should read Radnoti, and put his poems in context, since you learned nothing from him, about him, and you learned nothing about where hate takes a whole nation! Pleas, please read Radnoti, and try to understand him too!”

I have learned plenty – from some of the commentators on this blog – how much a little nation – and unsuspecting people like myself – can be provoked through ongoing systematic psychological torture!

Member

Yes. From Canada, with my Jewish parents living there, with my sister living there, with my friends (many who are in fact working with the refugees) living there. I’ve been back very often, and I do have my own apartment in Budapest.

Nobody denied that there are people in Hungary who are doing a lot. (Many of my friends and relatives, as I mentioned above. ) Many of my friend sand relatives also see how little the government does, so don’t you dare to credit the government and put a blank statement out. You are the one who is getting the news from Australia, not me. I am hearing it right from the people who are there.

Oh, by the way when I looked up the Australian Google News, there were not only news about “The Hungarian people are doing their best to help these people” as you saying. Maybe you should open your horizon more than one way.

Case closed!

Guest

@Latefor
September 10, 2015 at 8:48 pm

I remain totally unimpressed.

The poem as a poem is no doubt quite beautiful as an artistic artefact.

It’s contents are however another matter.

I have never ever been moved by parochialism (lokálpatriotizmus) of any kind, and in light of actual Hungarian realities, whether in the thirties or today, Hungarian apologetics simply disgusts me, whether by nauseating Hungarian Jews or nauseating Hungarian non-Jews.

Apart from that, in life Radnóti was a naive and confused fool who fell grisly victim on the one side to his conflicted sense of identity, and on the other side to his beloved, albeit bloodthirsty Hungarian compatriots.

And it did not matter a damn that he made himself out to be a true-born (tősgyökeres) Hungarian, because nobody among his non-Jewish compatriots took the slightest notice of this.

In fact, even those of his compatriots who would not have known him from Adam had hated his guts, on automatic, so to say.

I don’t see anything much to take pride in this.

So I am afraid you better have another look in that mirror, and try to come to terms with what you see in it, but this time for real.

Latefor
Guest

Mike Balint – Is there anyting you like about Hungarians? Forget about Orban now. What should the Hungarians do (especially those who were born after the war?) What should we do to make you happy? Should we commit mass – suiside? Should we just lie down and die?

Guest

latefor, did you watch those videos of the “Jobbitch” camera woman?
What did you feel? Did you get an orgasm like it seems many Hungarian lunatics did?

Or maybe you felt – just a little bit of shame?
If not, then just f*ck off!

Latefor
Guest

Wolfi- your comment is appalling. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Guest

Here’s a report in the Guardian on the kicking camera woman aka Jobbitch:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/11/something-snapped-hungarian-camera-operator-apologises-kicking-refugees?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
Over a thousand comments …
And here’s the Jobbitch’s twitter account – no apologising there, just more racism:
https://twitter.com/petralaszlo

PS:
Just as I expected from latefor – she’s like that Jobbitch …
Congratulations!

Webber
Guest

Wolfi – While my patience, also, has run thin, it seems to me that you were just a little unfair to Latefor (SHE didn’t kick the child!).
Perhaps the formulation you want for Latefor is “If you’re proud of Radnoti, as a Hungarian, you ought to be deeply saddened that he was murdered by fellow Hungarians, and also ashamed of Petra Laszlo, – and just look here to see why, if you really don’t already know. Surely expressing your shame over Petra Laszlo, whose actions happened so recently, is as valuable as presenting your affinity for Radnoti, who was murdered so long ago.”
But pardon me, Wolfi, if that’s not what you meant.

Guest

Well, I’ve been waiting for a comment on the “Jobbitch” from latefor but it didn’t come (should I say of course?) and her quoting a poem by Radnoti seems to me kind of perverse – if you consider how his fellow Hungarians treated him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Radn%C3%B3ti

Latefor
Guest

Wolfie – the action of the camera woman shocked me, as it shocked every God-fearing, sensitive human being.

Guest
@Latefor September 11, 2015 at 2:19 am — “Is there anyting you like about Hungarians?” — Some friends and relatives, some literature, such as Petőfi, Jókai, Arany, Ady, Kosztolányi, Szerb Antal, Radnóti, and some solo pieces from Kálmán, Lehár and Kacsóh Pongrác operettas. Other than that, for me at least, there is nothing much to like in Hungary or about Hungary. — What should Hungarians do (especially those who were born after the war) — Well, for example they could do a hell of a lot about changing their rotten mentality (panaszkultúra, dögöljön a szomszéd tehene, felfelé nyalni/lefelé ütni/rúgni, módszeres hazudozás, fúrás és képmutatás, felelőtlenség és számonkérhetetlenség: minden mindég mindenki más hibája, csak az övék nem, hajlamosság kirabolni mások nehezen megszerzett vagyonkáját, de a nemzeti vagyont is, ha lehetőség nyílik rá, etc. etc. – need I continue?); their cult of Horthy and celebration of egregious Horthy era antisemites, like Prohászka, Hóman, Wass, Tormay, Nyírő, thus implicitly indicating the justness and rightness of the looting and murder of the six hundred thousand; their demonizing Jews while denying antisemitism and its consequences, past and present; their lying and categorical unwillingness to face up to, admit and then move on from the crimes… Read more »
Guest

@Latefor
September 11, 2015 at 2:19 am

Correction:

…. and Arrowcross nazis had arrived FROM Hungary with both the post-war and 1956 wave ….

Guest

@Latefor
September 11, 2015 at 2:19 am

And one more point about Hungarian fascists and Nazis in Australia:

Most Hungarian Jews in Australia cannot and will not forget or disregard the fact that many of these Hungarian fascists and Nazis had more than likely a lot of Jewish blood sticking to their fingers, both directly and indirectly, the blood of the kith and kin of those same Hungarian-Australian Jews who would now be asked to forgive and forget.

But Hungarian-Australian Jews cannot be expected to reconcile with Hungarian-Australian fascists and Nazis, when instead of apologies and due contriteness, all that catastrophic history of the Hungarian Holocaust is compulsively denied, swept under the carpet, pooh-poohed, relativized, disparaged and even attempted to be justified, for heaven’s sake, by not just these fascist and Nazi types, but their descendants and fellow Australian-Hungarians too, as well as the vast majority of Hungarians living in Hungary, unregenerate antisemites that they are.

Latefor
Guest

Mike Balint – “And by the way, I challenge you to show me where I used the term “useless scumbags” for Hungarian immigrants in Australia. Another of your hyperboles?”

In your very first post on this blog.

Guest

@Latefor
September 11, 2015 at 7:39 am

Your memory is playing tricks on you. I wrote “flotsam and jetsam”. “Useless scumbags” was actually the term that you used afterwards, in response, the interpretation you put on what I actually said, in a wild accusation that that was what I actually meant.

I am not in the habit of using that kind of abusive language on this or any other forum, but anyway, I shall check it out, just to be sure.

exTor
Guest

I find most of this antiLatefor exchange mean-spirited and without worth. The attendant pettiness of many of the posts (of either side) is at times quite cringe-inducing. That Latefor is not antiOrbán, in contrast to most others who communicate via Hungarian Spectrum, is selfevident, however that should not give certain individuals leave to slag her adnauseam.

Latefor wont be persuaded. Leave her alone. Respond not.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Webber
Guest

Wouldn’t that be nice…
I (and perhaps others) have had certain bitter experience with a certain type of govt. supporter who considers non-response to their idiocies as “proof” that they are right.
Moreover, it is surely a new experience for many Fideszniks and Jobbikites to find that people disagree with them. I hope – and this hope may not be rational – that one or two of them may re-think their positions if they are thus challenged.
But still – you are right. If the lady does not respond to me, I will certainly not respond to her.
I hope you haven’t found my answers to be mean-spirited. Petty, I don’t mind. Being thought of as mean would be a downer (do be honest, by all means).

Member

exTor: Remind you, you were also responding to Latefor’s comments yesterday. My comments are respectful, but I will beg to differ from portrayed as a Hungarian hater just because I wish Hungary as whole would stand up and take humanitarian actions. Latefor’s rants about “all Hungarians” is tiresome. We are well aware and promote the actions of those who do support all human beings. Latefor’s contradictory messages regarding Hungary’s responsibilities of WWII and how Hungary is not responsible what is happing in her soil….. Accusing everyone being anti-Hungarian by referring Hungary as a whole is clearly annoying, but it reminds me when I went to pick-up my daughter from kindergarten one day, as she was crying unconsolably. I asked her “Why are you crying? and she said “Because the Principal told the whole school in the loudspeaker that the kindergarteners left their pales in the sandbox.” So?- I said. “I didn’t. The others did!”

exTor
Guest
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/09/09/viktor-orban-reveals-himself-to-be-a-racist/#comment-101538 … exTor comment, 10 September, 5:55 AM Good points by both Webber and Some1. Firstly, I did respond to Latefor’s comments yesterday, albeit in passing at the beginning, however Mike Balint was the addressee. I didn’t read the entire exchange before I posted. I would have, however I had to go somewhere, which was a literal washout. I wont comment on who said what. There’s no point in pointing fingers directly at someone(s). It is true that those firsttimers who post to HS should be addressed, however many outsiders turn out to be trolls, the ‘viles’ (who should be expunged right away) and the ‘normals’ (with whom a reasonably intelligent exchange can be had). The former must be dumped immediately, the latter should eventually be ignored. There is no value in talking to certain people. Any points that one may want to make specifically to a FEE·dess·nik or [very unlikely] a Jobbitcher will be made in the body of posts to various HS articles. Talking about Latefor is not talking to Latefor. http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/08/16/fidesz-and-the-horthy-regime-statue-for-the-anti-semite-balint-homan/#comment-100295 … Latefor reaction “to exTor and [her] attackers” I see Melanie Zuben as a troubled soul, as evidenced by many of her posts, however her delayed… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

ExTor -“Given her delayed-reaction response to me, I was surprised to see her”

Re: the above
I do have a life and I’m not a paid commentator. Since you don’t allow me to promote my books, I’ve lost interest in responding to you. You know how it is? We have to look after our own self-interest first 🙂
As far as your twisted psychological assessment of me is concerned, you are wrong again. According to your own admission, you call yourself a “poet from another life”. When did you become a self-appointed psychological assessor?
As far as some of the “haters of Hungary” is concerned, please do not forget: the world is watching and reading your comments (even though some of you even asked Eva to delete some outbursts over the years . . . I’m glad she didn’t.)

exTor
Guest

Very cryptic Latefor message that features terms like ‘true Hungarians’ and ‘minorities’, ‘interest’ and ‘nation’, ‘provocations’ and ‘shitstirring’.

Your ‘sputtering’ descriptor is as apt as any, Mike Balint.

The point is that Hungary, especially under the guidance of the Viktor, will not willingly allow visible minorities to become true Hungarians.

The problem is that overseas Orbánistas, whether they live in the States, in Canada or in Australia, choose to blind themselves (wittingly or not) to a Hungarian reality that contradicts their fanciful notions of Magyarország.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

@exTor
September 10, 2015 at 5:55 am

Spot on, exTor.

István
Guest
I agree ex Tor the American Hungarian Federation and the Hungarian American Coalition not only are blind to the reality of Fidesz/Jobbik rule on many occasions they provide theoritical justifications for Orban’s policies. The latest issue of the Hungarian Review is devoted to the migration crisis and one essay in particular entitled “Hungary’s Double Migration Crisis is also Europe’s Problem” by Mark Almond argues the EU has a double standard when it comes to Hungary. He argues Hungary’s policies on the imigration crisis are not so’different than those adopted by Italy, but Hungary gets targeted as the bad boy. Given the fact that the Coalition’s President is Maximilian Teleki a relative of Count Teleki who was Horthy’s prime minister and who also committed suicide with a pistol during the night of 3 April 1941 over Hungary going to war in support of Germany none of this is surprising. Regent Horthy appointed Teleki Prime Minister on 19 July 1920 and he introduced the first anti-Semitic laws introduced in Europe after the First World War, the so-called “Numerus Clausus Act” of 22 September 1920 which allowed Jews to attend universities only in a direct relation to their proportion of the Hungarian population.… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Almond, who is clever, is a hired gun. Odd that it took Orbán’s people this long to find him. The government of Turkey, and before them Milosevic’s regime have employed him in a similar manner.

We-2015
Guest

True good noble Hungarians may be those who have the intellectual courage to reject the Hungarian rejects.

Member
I would like to ask a question from those proud Hungarians, who hold the gypsies, families, born for many-many generations in Hungary, yet they are considered anything else, but Hungarians. -Show the family trees for most Hungarians to be descendants purely of Hungarians for 8-10 generations. During the hundreds of years of Hungarian history, there were many times foreign nationalities were imported after great losses of people, in wars and diseases, such as the black plaque. I only mention the Pecenego (Besenyő) people brought in by St. Stephen, the first king of Hungary, about 60 noble families and their peasants. Between 1140 and 1211 various kings imported German nobility (Szászok) and thousands of their people who were expelled from their homeland. King Béla IV. imported approx. 40,000 families of Cumans (Kúns) and settled them between the Tisza and Duna rivers, just before the Mongols attacked Hungary. After the Mongols killed more than half the population in the same area, large number of Jessico (Jászok) and German people also been imported. Their descendants live in Hungary since then, mixed with the Hungarian population. During and later Hungarians freely mixed with Czechs, Slovaks, Moravians, Polish, Serbian and Romanian people and others. After… Read more »
Member

I agree, there are no “pure” Hungarians in my opinion. My family members come from Central Hungary, but have ancestry from regions of Ukraine, Romania, Slovakia today. We have mixed with many different cultures and have a large amount of Roma blood too. So I accept this and am proud of all of my roots.

dos929
Guest
We are all keep commenting on the details of the ‘modus operandi’ of the Orbán regime, and whilst details are very important part of the whole, it is time to simply acknowledge that this regime is no different from that of Mussolini’s, if only in that the ‘trains do not run on time’. Orbán and his cronies represent the worst of human kind. The way they systematically ruined a country in such a relatively short time is no less than a criminal act that is on par with the acts of the worst dictators. Their Mafia-like policies, ad-hoc governance drove hundreds of thousands of Hungarian citizens (amongst them more often than not, the best professionals) out of the country never to return… None of this regime’s deeds were done in the interest of the impoverished citizens, but only to empower themselves even more. Orbán’s ‘refugee policy’, if he has one at all, is no more than using this sad event to further divide the country. If he could get away with it he would happily get rid of all the gypsies, Jews, intellectuals, liberal thinkers and the likes for good… He is a ‘mini-monster’ trying to play up his importance… Read more »
Karl Telegdi
Guest

Orban’s a racist, please tell me something new. Although most Hungarians believe Orban himself is actually of roma extraction.

By the way if most Hungarians are racist then why shouldn’t he be?

Because the Western politicians will disapprove? Oh no, he will get another ejnye-bejnye from Brussels. Let’s repeat: as long as money keeps flowing Orban couldn’t care less about effeminate Western politicians, the more they criticize Orban, the more he will do it, just to prove that he is not giving in.

Orban is elected in Hungary and there’s no downside in Hungary for a racists politician. Why? Because most people are done with political correctness, they want jobs, law and order, cheaper utility rates, protection from capitalism and unruly, uncivilized romas and not debates about liberal values. The leftwing is unable to understand that.

The Hungarian romas simply don’t vote and when they do they sell their votes to the fidesz machinery for about a dollar a piece. As long as they romas remain unorganized they will suffer. But when educated urban leftists can’t organize themselves how can one expect that from the poor, illiterate, sick, rural romas?

exTor
Guest

“By the way, if most Hungarians are racist,
then why shouldn’t [Viktor Orbán] be?”

Almost correct, Karl Telegdi. Thus: “… why wouldn’t he be?”

Your POV re the Magyars is cynical and it is accurate, namely the populace cares more about its pocketbook [finances] than it cares about abstract (and not so abstract) debates about racism that victimizes refugees.

Your take on the leftwing is also right on.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Webber
Guest
“I can’t see how in a relatively small country the government can grant citizenship to 1,000 families (or approximately 4,000-5,000 people) without anyone noticing it.” It’s possible that Balog lied, but it’s possible that he’s telling the truth. The r. is generally opposed to this sort of thing, and because of what Balog said (regardless of whether he lied or told the truth) Fidesz will lose some supporters, while Jobbik will gain a few. So, Balog may have let the cat out of the bag – and it is quite surprising that these people would not simply get resident permits, but CITIZENSHIP. That is something many, many people with simple resident permits covet. So, the liar may not be Balog, but Orban who tells Hungarians that masses of people will not be accepted (as a point of fact, any foreigner with enough money can purchase residence in Hungary through the program started by this govt.) As to not noticing this number of people, I have to disagree: 4,000-5,000 extra people, regardless of their background, would not be noticed in a cosmopolitan town the size of Budapest. There are far more foreigners than that on any Friday or Saturday night in… Read more »
exTor
Guest

“Zoltán Balog … [revealed] that … 1000 Egyptian and Iraqi Christian families received asylum and citizenship in Hungary.”

My presumption is that the granting of asylum occurred some years ago and that the awarding of citizenship, which occurred in 2013 and 2014 (per the omitted dates of the quote) came about after the normal waiting period, which currently means 8 years of continuous residence in Hungary.

Many Iraqis may have arrived because of the 2003 US invasion of Iraq.

As with Webber, I am dubious about Éva’s dubiousness. Why would Zoltán Balog make a baldface lie of such proportions, when, if it were ever revealed to be a lie, that revelation could be very harmful to Fidesz?

The way I see this, if those one-thousand refugees/asylum seekers did obtain citizenships in 2013/2014, then they must have entered Hungary during the post2004 period when Gyurcsány was Prime Minister.

Perhaps Balog’s lie was that all those who received their citizenships are ALL Christian. Given the proChristian and antiMuslim bias of the FEE·dess government, maybe very few receivers of citizenship are really Christian.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

” Why would Zoltán Balog make a baldface lie of such proportions, when, if it were ever revealed to be a lie, that revelation could be very harmful to Fidesz?”

When was the revelation of a lie ever harmful to Fidesz?

Peter
Guest
Orban has no values or morals that belong to a person in the 21st century. He belongs in the 1920’s, when the whole continent was filled with hatred. It has never been more obvious how weak the EU is. Hungary may not be the only country that is not welcoming refugees, but that’s not the worst. The treatment of them and the way Orban is blaming the EU countries for his problem. Hungary completely stands out when it comes to this and still it’s not said explicitly that Hungary and Orban are the problem. No, only in general terms when actually it’s most of the time only Hungary that could be the subject. Even more clear is probably the fact Fidesz is still part of the EPP. Why are they accepting Fidesz to still represent them? In any national parliament such individuals would be kicked out. What is the meaning of those fractions if the members don’t have to follow any party line? If the EU is not dealing with this properly Hungary is seriously doomed. Orban will be able to do anything he wants in domestic affairs as well as international affairs.
D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

An inhuman animal that not only permits but positively encourages children and women to be attacked and denied medical sedrvices merely because of their race should be facing an international court, instead Orban can now be correctly described as the leader of not just racist Hungary but also the hero of every far-right, low-life scumbag on the continent. He is such a despicable excuse for a human being he probably regards that as an honour.

What does that say not only about the immorality of the Hungarian electorate but about Christian Europe in general?

REBIW
Guest
It says that democracy is based on votes. The more you collect, the longer you are in power. Orban does what is legally allowed in the system (well, he also says what the law is). Except for the diligent Jobbik the opposition seems to have flushed itself down the toilet. Orban is a lawyer and he has no respect for unwritten cultural rules like the post-1945 consensus of being politically correct, not trying to get any votes by populism or racism. That unwritten consensus or agreement is for losers. The EU should have thought about the future when it accepted Hungary and others and realized that the new member states are a bit more backward, dirty, corrupt, racist. The EU should have thought a few steps ahead and prepared rules to punish misbehaving corrupt tyrants like Orban. What happened was a textbook case of moral hazard. The Brussels bureaucrats never opened an economics books? What did they think? That all of a sudden upon accession Hungarians will also undergo a head transplant? Hungary showed its nice deferential side until accession and then from them there is simply no compelling reason why Orban should conform. Orban receives the funds (into his… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Brussels bureaucrats couldn’t care less now, and never could. It was the same with Greece, remember? Everyone knew that members of the Greek government were embezzling massive amounts of money that was meant to improve infrastructure, education, and in general the country’s economic chances. Brussels certainly knew. But if Greek politicians stole it, and Greek voters didn’t do a thing to stop them, that was Greece’s problem, not Brussels’. Similarly, if the Hungarian government wants to trash Hungary, that’s the business of the Hungarian government and the Hungarian electorate. Incidentally, it is a LITTLE ironic when people who proclaim their adherence to democratic values expect big brother and sister (Brussels, Germany/Merkel, the US/Goodfriend) to solve the country’s problems. This is self-criticism – I, also, want Brussels to act, but am acutely aware of how undemocratic this sentiment is. It is embarrassing. Either Hungarian citizens and (part of) the Hungarian elite find a way out of the situation, or they don’t. Expecting Brussels (Washington, Berlin) to resolve internal problems is, in reality, hoping that the country will be controlled by foreign powers. The question is, if Brussels were to cut off funds and close Hungary off of benefits of EU membership,… Read more »
Peter
Guest

I totally agree with you that Hungarians have the obligation to do something about their regime. However, it is the EU responsibility to do something about a country that is disturbing European affairs and insulting western Europe while doing it. In fact it is an insult to the western European population to send their tax money to countries like Hungary.

REBIW
Guest
@Webber I think there’s an obsession (not with democracy) but with the concept of “democracy”. There is no full democracy anywhere, there are always powers which are delegated to various non-democratic (not directly answerable to the people) branches of government or agencies or organizations via among others international treaties. (Just as there is no true capitalism anywhere, only mixed systems with 30-50% redistribution ratios.) It’s a myth and a fallacy that people can or should directly decide everything in “a Democracy” and anything less is somehow dictatorial or bad, not up to the Western European enlightened standards or an intervention in the domestic affairs. One has to face the fact that Brussels (just as the US) has power over Hungary and Hungary undertook all the obligations regarding the EU properly, in a constitutional manner. Hungary legally delegated certain powers to Brussels. The questions is does Brussels have that disciplinary power in reality and wants to exercise it or not? Saying that the exercise of such powers would be – gasp – non-democratic and therefore somehow illegal, amoral or undesirable completely misses the point. I agree that Hungarian voters are primarily responsible for their lives and political system, politicians. But the… Read more »
Guest

“People like Orban, Putin, Erdogan like power and wield it and they get results.”

Yes, and what results! Converting government to mafia, robbing neigbour countries of territory, imprisoning writers and journalists.

exTor
Guest
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/09/07/viktor-orban-on-his-western-critics/#comment-101381 … Gabor Toka post This is a belated response to his impressive post, which I will address [in the second person] paragraph by paragraph. Éva did make the point (at least once earlier) that Viktor Orbán is probably a racist who has (until now) been careful enough to cover his ass. In other words, he has never said anything in public that is clearly racist. BTW, the Orbán “We cannot be in the opposition because the nation cannot be in the opposition.” is NOT a slip of the tongue, as you suggest, it is very smart speechifying. It is almost genius, which (if nothing else) shows just how savvy Viktor Orbán is. 2018 will be a huge problem for his opponents. Paragraphs 2 & 3, Gabor Toka, present an either/or interpretation of Orbán’s Roma comment: either “the Roma in Hungary [are the] equivalent [of the] refugees from Syria”, or “[the Roma are] a burden, an economically unproductive mass living on welfare”. In reality, Orbán’s Roma comment, which may NOT have been a racist slip, is an unambiguous melding of both POVs: the Roma are (the descendants of) refugees from India who are (now) a burden to Magyarország. Your concluding… Read more »
Guest

@exTor
September 10, 2015 at 3:50 am

Rather than sputtering about Orbán’s provocation, I prefer to ask myself some questions.

What are the actual facts about the Roma in Hungary? Why are they popularly regarded as a huge, intractable problem? And if so, what can be done about resolving that problem?

I don’t have the answers. Have you?

exTor
Guest

You used ‘sputtering’ earlier with reference to Latefor, whom I also addressed, coincidental to your 5:55 AM post, Mike Balint. I cant tell whether you directed ‘sputtering’ at yourself or at me or at both of us.

Perhaps you can explain how you see that word variously?

As for the Roma question, I dont have any answers, at least none that can neatly be encapsulated within a few well-worded paragraphs.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

@exTor
September 10, 2015 at 6:26 am

— “Perhaps you can explain how you see that word variously?” —

First it applied to myself, to stop for a moment and instead of expressing conventional and properly politically correct outrage at Orbán’s provocation, to start asking myself some (to my mind) pertinent questions.

Then it applied to all of us responding to Éva’s piece with properly politically correct, but essentially impotent rage. I certainly wasn’t meaning to “pick on you’, exTor.

— “As for the Roma question, I dont have any answers, at least none that can neatly be encapsulated within a few well-worded paragraphs.” —

Well, join the crowd…..

Member
I have answers to the Roma question!!! I do beleive that integration, accepting them and making discrimination against them ILLEGAL is the answer. I do recall a time in Hungary when they were protected, under COMMUNISM of all political systems to protect them. During the Kádár era, the Roma integrated, and mixed with the population, they considered themselves Hungarian and crime was nothing like it is now in their communities. Yes, there were still racists who called them budos ciganyok, but they were able to integrate at least to some degree, I truly believe that if after the fall of communism, Hungarians weren’t able to run rampant with racism and discriminate Roma back to the edges of society, they would be even more integrated and educated today and contributing to our economy. Instead, Hungarians felt they could say and do whatever the hell they wanted because of “free speech” and “free will”, which meant for many that they could now get away with rejecting Roma in the hopes they would just simply go away. Because the “democratic” Hungary didn’t prepare and prevent this from happening back in 1990, we reap the consequences now. Unfortunately, I am afraid that Hungary and… Read more »
Guest
@Liz Aucoin September 10, 2015 at 5:49 pm I think that a resolution of the Hungarian Roma issue would take a hell of a lot more than just making discrimination against them illegal. The issue is extremely complex, involving as it does not only the entrenched inequality and dire poverty of much of the Hungarian Roma population, but also profound cultural differences that must be bridged hand in glove with attempting to remedy that inequality and poverty, and that means above all a great deal of emotional and financial investment in positive discrimination, and in building trust, mutual tolerance and Roma self-respect, while coming down very hard on Roma crime. I know about this issue quite a bit, because here in Australia we are deeply engaged in attempting to resolve a similar set of problems in respect of our own Australian aborigines. And a similar set of problems are being of course addressed in Canada too, in regard to their First Nation aboriginal peoples. The Kádár era had merely papered over the enormity of Hungarian Roma issue at both grass roots and policy levels, just as it has temporarily papered over the implacable nature of Hungarian antisemitism. In both respects… Read more »
Gabor Toka
Guest

Thanks for the kind comments, exTor, you are right that the two interpretations of the Roma vs. Syrians line of Orban may hold simultaneously. I merely wanted to suggest that I do not see what could be a third interpretation, i.e. one that does not reveal racist premises. And yes, maybe I am just into wishful thinking – or unjustifiable courtesy – by suggesting that some of Orban’s most infamous sentences were just slips of tongue.

Webber
Guest

The Fidesz Mayor of Ács, who happens to be Roma, has left the party in protest against Orban’s racist remark. It was, for the Mayor, the last straw. Story here:
http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/09/lakatos_bela_acs_orban_viktor_ciganysag_menekultek/

exTor
Guest

http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20150910-tovabb-erosodott-a-fidesz.html

Thanx for the link, Webber. I’m still reading it. I doubt that the words ‘principled’ and ‘Fidesz’ could ever legitimately be used in the same sentence, however I wonder if (contrary to expectation) there are other Fidesz mayors who might, in solidarity with Ács mayor Béla Lakatos, also withdraw from Fidesz? Sure. And it can snow in July in Budapest.

Re Origo link, according to Századvég, Fidesz strengthened, MSZP plateaued and Jobbik weakened. Read the gory details.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Gabor Toka
Guest
Re the Szazadveg poll reported by Origo. The article just makes vague claims about over-time comparison but shows no data that would quantify just how much is the supposed gain of Fidesz in recent months. In any case, the credibility of this poll has to be judged in the light of its other remark saying that “A Századvég felméréséből ugyanakkor az is kiderül, hogy a felnőtt népesség negyede a kormány távozását szeretné – igaz, a maradását a ciklus végéig a lakosság 71 százaléka.” This is one of the funniest misinterpretation of public opinion that I have come through in Hungary since 1990. Surely after so many surveys (200 a year according to their webpage) as Szazadveg does I could write a survey question that produces this distribution, but that would take quite some trying in deceitful, leading and biased wording. The decline of Fidesz stopped – the refugee crisis may have contributed to this in the sense that it helped deleting the opposition from public affairs coverage altogether – but even that appears to have happened much earlier during the year, after a period of steep decline in the second half of 2014. Obviously, there is some random variation from… Read more »
Guest

Has anybody got any practical ideas and workable solutions for lifting Hungary’s Roma minority out of the mud in a racist country with few financial resources, no civil society to speak of, and relatively few charitable hearts?

The reason why I am asking is because on the one hand I see liberal bleeding hearts (széplelkek) holding forth as though the solution was self-evident and as simple a two and two equals four, whilst on the other hand I see an army of illiberal Neanderthals chiming in from right field with unbelievably intense hatred and utter intolerance.

Neither appears to have any practical, constructive idea about what actually ought to be done, about what could or would actually work in the given situation.

Not a clue, in fact, just a lot of hot air and bloviating.

Nádas
Guest

Kanye West and Kim Kardashian are unfortunate choices to illustrate this post. They are both publicity-craving idiots, “famous for being famous,” and Kanye is a bit of a racist himself. For the sake of their child, let’s hope idiocy skips a generation.

Webber
Guest

I also am not a fan, but I think they are okay as an illustration. Both are extremely successful (like them or not, that is undeniable), and both of them are attractive. Better still, they have a cute baby.
But if you want a different image of a successful minority person, here you go:comment image

Webber
Guest

http://www.hollywoodtake.com/jennifer-lopez-46-sexy-and-single-jlo-reveals-diet-exercise-and-skincare-secrets-keep-her-88746
If you prefer someone with Muslim background, there’s Rita Ora, whose family is from Kosovo. Her father is Muslim while her mother is Catholic.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6251382/rita-ora-calvin-harris

tappanch
Guest

Child poverty in Hungary (from a 2012 article)
comment image

Self-defined Gypsies in Hungary (2001 census)comment image

2011 census:

Gypsy children among the the children under 14: 7.1%

p.53

Gypsies among the male population over 15.

No children: 2.5%
1 child: 1.9%
2 children: 1.5%
3 children: 4.4%
4 children: 10.6%
5 children: 18.8%
6-9 children: 28.4%
10 or more children: 35.6%

p. 194
http://www.ksh.hu/docs/hun/xftp/idoszaki/nepsz2011/nepsz_04_2011.pdf

Webber
Guest
There is something wrong with those figures, and the formulation is weird (in Hungarian and in your translation(. The figures come out to 103.7% for Gypsies. The way you have formulated it makes it sound as if 35.6% of Gypsies have ten or more children which is, of course, ridiculous. If your formulation were correct, then (according to the table you cite) 0% of Slovene men in Hungary have no children, 0% have 1 child, 0% have two children, indeed it is 0% until you get to 10 or more children, in which case you have 0.2% for a combined total of 0.2% meaning, I guess, that 99.8% of Slovene men have cyborgs, or something similar, just not children. For ethnic Hungarians, the percentages are just as funny, because each is above 83%, for a grand total of 781.5% It gets even more weird when add up the percentages by nationality – because my reading of the Hungarian is that these are figures for “Percentage of families with x no. of children born fathers of y nationality” So, for the record, the table says something like 85.4% of those with ten or more children are ethnic Hungarians. But 35.6% (Gypsies)… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

There is nothing wrong with the numbers. For instance, 35.6% of the men over 15 who have at least 10 children are considered Gypsies by the census.

Webber
Guest

Then how can 88.4% of the men who who have at least 10 children be considered Hungarians by the census??? 88.4% + 35.6% = 124% of the men over fifteen!
Add 14.1% (those who did not identify their ethnicity) and the figure gets worse.
(I misread the chart above – it’s 88.4% as you’ll see)

Webber
Guest

oops, again – 10.9% of those who did not identify ethnicity.
In any case, the percentages simply do not add up, or rather they come to well over 100% no matter how I read it.

illi
Guest

The numbers are surely wrong. Only gipsies have more than 10 children. No white couple have more than five children.

Webber
Guest

There are surely very, very few families with ten or more children.
But the figures are for men only, and it is not that impossible for a man to father more than 10 children.
However, it is also not impossible for men to lie about how many children they have, as a joke.
Whatever the case, the percentages do not add up. There is something very wrong here – either that, or I am reading it wrong.

Guest
Racism within Orbán’s rhetoric is nothig new. In 1989, when he and his fledgling politcal colleagues were guests of Soros in New York, they were treated with great courtesy, like VIPs, and shown around the city, attended numerous events and had their hotel bill paid, all funded by the Jewish philanthropist Soros. On their last night there, Orbán threw a party in his hotel room, and as the drinks flowed freely, so did more and more anti-semitic remarks and jokes, and the evening ended by Orbán wishing his buddies “a Jew-free goodnight!” This event was recorded on an American video tape. Once back in Hungary, Orbán then asked a local expert to transfer this on to a European tape, so that it could be viewed on a compatible machine. The tapes were then distributed as a memento to his cronies. Not an ounce of shame was felt at their behaviour, since in Hungary, there is no such thing as political correctness, and racism is an accepted part of every day life here. The tapes then somehow “disappeared”, I suspect around the time Hungary became a part of the wider world by joining the EU, and Orbán and gang therefore had… Read more »
exTor
Guest

This anecdote of a supposed event sounds entirely plausible, magyar2lips, however how do we know that things happened as you related? Where did this story come from? Where’s the smoking tape, as it were? If, as you say, many video mementos (containing Viktor Orbán’s “Jewfree good night”) were made and handed out, then some copies must still exist.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

The man who transferred the tapes was already getting on in years around the time he was asked to do the work by Orbán, who turned up on his doorstep in the summer, in shorts.. He did not keep a copy of the tapes because he did not think that Orbán was of any great consequence, but he kicked himself since, and died a few years later, leaving an elderly and frail wife who would not be happy with intimidations from Orbán’s goons, if they thought she still had a tape.

And no other copies of the tape have come forth since surely none of the others who were with Orbán In New York would reveal their true stripes. And no doubt Mr. O would have trashed it long time ago.

I know this to be true from someone who had been a close friend of the man who copied the tapes, and I am not really interested if anyone believes this or not, but those who do, it is just another little snippet to illustrate the sort of world that our PM is cultivating in Hungary, and within the EU.

Guest

@magyar2lips
September 10, 2015 at 8:43 am

Orbán egy bornírt, de rendkívül ravasz kelet-európai bunkó egy bornírt kelet-európai bunkókkal teli félig kelet-európai, félig Balkán országban.

Nem csoda, hogy szépséges hazájában rendkívül népszerű.

tappanch
Guest

What is the percentage of the migrants/refugees that are captured by the Hungarian police?

There are about 4500 arriving people every day in the Serbian Кањижа or Magyarkanizsa ALONE. Their number reached 5000 on September 9 and 7. They reach the Hungarian border within 12 hours.

http://index.hu/belfold/2015/08/31/menekultek_bevandorlok_krizis_percrol_percre/magyarkanizsan_folyamatos_a_menekultek_aramlasa/

The Hungarian police reported 3321 “captured” migrants for yesterday.

So police captures and counts AT MOST 2/3 of the illegal entries.

Children captured in Csongrad county; total for Hungary

Septem 01. 18.0% ;2284
Septem 02. 24.0% ;2061
Septem 03. 20.9% ;3313
Septem 04. 23.3% ;2181
Septem 05. 22.7% ;1002

Septem 06. 26.0% ;2203
Septem 07. 26.7% ;2706
Septem 08. 18.0% ;2770
Septem 09. 22.0% ;3321

If we assume that most people that are not captured are single males, we can conclude that
about 12 to 17% of the migrants are children every day.

tappanch
Guest

Percentage of children among the migrants captured in Csongrad county;Total captured anywhere in Hungary

trackback

[…] narrative and self-image, especially as espoused on the right. It should be noted, and Éva Balogh does exactly this in the Hungarian Spectrum, that talk of defending Christianity has little do with religion […]

Member

I am not sure what to make of the posts that pop up time time “What would you do?” or “What is the solution?” I would like to to remind everyone that in my knowledge not a single one of us gets paid like for ample Viktor Orban does, to come up with the solution. If your problem with the gypsies row whenever is that WE or YOU cannot come up with a solution, than I suggest to take a look on what politicians should be doing from YOUR and OUR money. Although Viktor Orban still planning to move into the Castle (literally), his “job description” for all the money he is getting do not contain the building and fundraising for stadiums, but likely contain something related to serving the people.
If you get a kick out of the Hungary is for Hungarians blanket, I suggest that 1. You move back to Hungary 2. Have a DNA test done (as Jobbik suggested) to prove your clean bloodline. If you have Jewish, Western European, Scandinavian, Turkish, Mediterranean, etc. in the results, keep your freaking mouth closed!

Guest

@Some1
September 10, 2015 at 9:31 am

For your information, Western Europeans and Scandinavians will pass just fine, so there is no reason to keep their freaking mouth shut.

Mediterraneans and even Turks will be OK too, as long as they are not too brown, although Jews can of course be whiter than white and still not pass.

Now in case you are referring to my big mouth in your post above, well, I like my freaking Jewish mouth wide open, whether that happens to please you or not.

Sorry, but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

And by the way, my questions still stand, whether or not Orbán ought to be finding solutions for the Hungarian Roma issue or not.

Incidentally, I wouldn’t be holding my breath for solutions to the Hungarian Roma issue from a confirmed Hungarian racist like Orbán any time soon.

Regardless of what his job description may say.

That would be like waiting for a solution to the Jewish question from Himmler.

Although he did of course solve it in his own peculiar way, as far as six million were concerned.

I am sure that Orbán would just love to follow in his footsteps with those deuced Gypsies of his, if only he could.

Member

Mike Balint: It is funny that you took this personally. You should look up sarcasm http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sarcasm
F.Y.I. I am Jewish. I am Hungarian. I am Canadian. I live in Canada, and have an apartment in Budapest. I do criticize Orban. I also donate regularly to animal welfare, and to humanitarian causes, and volunteer hundreds of hours each year for various causes. I am a proud liberal when it comes for social issues and an adamant conservative when comes to economy. Sometimes the two sides clash.
I find it ridiculous that the those who are the biggest “against the infiltrating jihadists” posters are themselves some way would not qualify as Pure Hungarians.

Guest

@Some1
September 10, 2015 at 12:33 pm

Very commendable indeed.

I agree that the vast majority of those who make themselves out to be true-born (tősgyökeres) Hungarians are delusional and/or ignorant of their actual family origins or of actual Hungarian history, or both, and that consequently their pretensions and protestations about the purity of their hungarianness are totally ludicrous.

I myself am a libertarian with however profound compassion for others, which actually works for me, though “compassionate libertarian” might sound an oxymoron to others.

I believe in restricting social engineering by a nanny state to just the most extreme cases of need, but also in some minimal, but effective regulation of the capitalist marketplace to save it from itself.

I don’t believe in equality, though I do believe that extreme inequality must be prevented at all costs, in order to maximally ensure maintenance of a condition of social peace and harmony in which everyone can flourish to the best of their abilities.

My mottoes are thus liberty and fraternity only, rather than liberty, equality and fraternity, since I consider liberty and equality mutually exclusive domains.

TeamBritanniaHu
Guest
It’s worth considering this issue from both a scientific and religious-humanitarian perspective. Firstly, the theory of Eugenics which gave rise to late nineteenth-century Imperialism and forms of Fascism in the first half of the twentieth century, was based on the belief that separate races emerged in separate areas of Africa, Europe (including the Middle East) and Asia. This theory has been discredited by both ethnographic and genetic research, which have indicated that all human beings have the same basic genetic codes and common ancestors. Physical differences are therefore due to environmental effects over time. The theory of Apartheid in South Africa and Racial Segregation in the Southern USA was based on a theological heresy within the Calvinist Churches which stated that all races were created separately by God, and were not intended to mix and inter-breed. The Dutch Reformed Church acknowledged this heresy at the end of the Apartheid era, which helped to bring down the cultural scaffolding of the Apartheid regime. A similar heresy existed among some Calvinistic Baptists in the southern USA in the 1950s and 1960s. When Orbán talks of ‘Christian Hungary’ he is essentially referring to two significant minorities among the churches, the Catholics and the… Read more »
nokocsai
Guest

Petra Laszlo does not apologise. That’s our girl. A real rightwing person never apologises. Apology is for losers, for leftists (which is a synonym of the former). These are the loyal foot soldiers we need.

She is steadfast in her conviction. She does not bend. The leftist media campaign cannot break her.

She will be promoted and in a year or two she will get a state decoration.

http://index.hu/kultur/media/2015/09/10/nem_ker_bocsanatot_a_menekulteket_rugdoso_operator/

Member

Apparently they are pressing charges against her! If all works out she will be in a jail shortly and can explain her actions to the other inmates who will not be necessary as sympathetic. As we know football hooligans, axe murderers and such do not stay in Hungarian jails, as they either be “promoted” or choose to protect Fidesz from university students. She will be “sacrificed” to show the West how much Hungary is an International law abiding country.

vssvvssv
Guest

“A politician should never give in to media pressure.” Only leftists and some weak Western politicians do that, winners never compromise.

http://vs.hu/kozelet/osszes/kormany-nehany-brutalis-het-az-ara-hogy-aztan-nyugalom-legyen-0909#!s2

Webber
Guest
Member

Sic Duo Faciunt Item

I used to think that the difference between Fidesz and Jobbik when they both advocated the same ugly thing was that the Jobbik yobs were just viscerally bigoted brutes whereas the Fidesz zombies were, rather, anything-goes con-men.

I still think that’s true, but there’s always been something exalted (in the Hungarian sense of exaltált) about Viktor Orban: He may put on a mask opportunistically at first, as appearances demand (the peacock two-step), but sometimes he really gets into it, the way he did with religion, nationalism and now racism.

Probably megalomania, too, grew on him, with dreams of the Peacock Throne, in the Sandor Palota.

He doesn’t have Putin’s physique, but he is probably having nocturnal emissions — which I of course mean in the French sense of émissions dramatiques — imagining himself perched uncharacteristically high atop Horthy’s proud caucasian steed or aloft still higher, brandishing Atilla’s sabre, astride the mighty Turul, possibly his true progenitor, soaring over the dominions of his pre-Trianon birthright…
comment image

bergdahl
Guest

Orban is a gipsy. Look at this picture. Most Hungarians think he is a gipsy anyway.

His example proves that if a gipsy is trying to be white and is rich most people tolerate and even can adore such gipsy. Of course Orban may be a racist too, now that he successfully assimilated into the Buda-side bourgeoisie.

http://prolidepp.tumblr.com/post/128573748672/orb%C3%A1n-szerint-az%C3%A9rt-lehet%C3%BCnk-b%C3%BCszk%C3%A9k-mert-nem

Charlie
Guest

The Hungarian Charlie Hebdo. Is it a cat or is it a…?

http://erdelyip.tumblr.com/image/128771106569

Member

What’s your point? This has nothing to do with any of the conversation, posts, comments this blog has. You are disrespectful of so many things, something is seriously is wrong with you. I hope Eva removes your stupid nonsense.

Karoly
Guest

The point is probably that the person who draw it couldn’t even draw because it does look like a cat with a long tail. It looks very childish too. Only the drawer added ‘röf-röf’ which is in Hungarian the sound of pigs, may one realize that it was intended to be a pig. I guess we lough at the stupid intention, not at the substance of the drawing. Though it’s provocative and wants to hurt, it’s rather childish and I think it’s within the limits of freedom of expression.

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

Feeding time in Orban’s Gulag. Shame on you Hungary, shame on you European Union:

Member

What is truly disgusting about this is they don’t even give out enough for everyone and make them scramble and fight over the food. Shame, Shame, Shame!!!

Member

OMG

wpDiscuz