Viktor Orbán’s interview with Bild

Viktor Orbán gave a lengthy interview to the German newspaper Bild, which I just learned has the sixth largest circulation in the world. According to an article that appeared in the Christian Science Monitor, this German paper “is notorious for its mix of gossip, inflammatory language, and sensationalism,” but at the same time it has a huge influence on German politicians. So it makes sense that it was in Bild that the Hungarian prime minister decided to make public his proposals for solving the refugee crisis.

Let’s start with Orbán’s “constructive” suggestions, which he apparently will share with his fellow politicians in the European Union. It’s not clear what his views are on the fate of those refugees who are already inside the borders of the European Union, but he seems reconciled to the fact that they most likely will stay. Those on the other side of the Serb-Hungarian fence, however, should “go back.” In this context, “back” means back to the refugee camps in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan. These countries should be given massive financial support by the European Union. In his scheme each member country should pay into the common budget an additional one percent while “we reduce spending on other projects by one percent.” By his calculation, that would generate three billion euros with which the EU could support the countries neighboring on Syria. If that turns out to be insufficient, the Union will pump more money in until “the flow of refugees dries up.”

Viktor Orbán with Bild reporters Dora Varro and Hans-Jörg Vehlewald

Viktor Orbán with Bild reporters Dora Varro and Hans-Jörg Vehlewald

Otherwise, from the interview Orbán comes across as a callous man who blames the parents for the death of the little boy whose body washed up on the beach in Bodrum, Turkey. He, unlike his foreign minister who claimed not to have seen the shocking picture that upset the whole civilized world, says that he was shocked because he is a good Christian, but he also thought of the parents who “put their lives and those of their children at risk. One must make clear to them that the dangers that lurk on the way to Europe cannot be borne by us. It would be better if they did not come.”

Although Orbán is currently the chief villain of Europe, he will not retreat. As he put it, “I can only say: Here I stand. Cannot do otherwise.” These two sentences, which of course echo Luther, are intended to show Orbán’s missionary zeal in defending Christian Europe. He will perhaps be the leader of a movement that will prevent the Islamization of the Continent. Because, surprisingly and inexplicably, he seems to believe in the superiority of Islam. As he says, “if Europe allows a competition of cultures, then the Christians will lose. These are the facts.”

A careful reading of this interview reveals that, although Orbán when pressed tries to make a distinction between genuine refugees and economic migrants, deep down he considers all those who got as far as Europe economic migrants. The true refugees remain in camps in Syria’s neighboring countries, and the rest are being tricked by irresponsible western politicians who “promise them a better life…. but they will learn that the honey that flows in Germany is less sweet than they think.” I agree that the refugees underestimate the difficulties that await them, but it is unfair to accuse them of moving to Europe only to receive government handouts. Because this is what he indicates when he says that “after all, a good life is matter of accomplishment and not entitlement.” In fact, he claims that “there is no fundamental right to a better life, only a right to security and human dignity.” So, if you and your family are starving, you should bear it with dignity.

This pronouncement can easily be turned against Orbán. What about those half a million Hungarians who left Hungary in hope of a better life in Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and other western European countries? Surely, they left because they can make a great deal more money in western Europe than in Hungary. Since Orbán claims that their situation is entirely different because they are citizens of the European Union, he is basically saying that only the lucky people of Eastern Europe are entitled to seek a better life but that those outside of Europe cannot.

Finally, he showered plenty of accusations on Germany. Angela Merkel’s “announcement has caused a revolt in Hungary. Migrants have broken out of the lodgings, have attacked policemen. They refused to register.” Previously, the situation was under control. So, says the reporter, in this case “Chancellor Angela Merkel [was] wrong.” To which comes the witty Hungarian prime minister: “The German chancellor always gets it right–that’s item number 1 in the Hungarian constitution…. but let’s be serious.” The trouble with Orbán is that all his jokes have an edge, a sharp edge. At least as I read it, this was anything but a compliment. To me this remark shows frustration with the power of the German chancellor on whose goodwill so much depends as far as Hungary is concerned.

Only time will tell whether Orbán will be able to repeat a few months down the road “Here I stand. Cannot do otherwise” or whether he will have to relax his rigid opposition to sharing the burden of the refugee crisis in the European Union.

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Nkabcen
Guest

My guess is that if the numbers of refugees coming to Europe persist, Orban will need to move less than you expect because the tide of public opinion will start moving towards his position (and perhaps rapidly). He will always be the crude, uncouth one, but sadly he is also likely to be the one who was said first what many others will say (more diplomatically) later.

Gyorgyi Voros
Guest

Professor Balogh, if Orbán implements his draconian proposals for dealing with the refugees starting September 15–proposals which, as you pointed out in a previous post, are both unconstitutional in terms of Hungarian law and contravene the Geneva Conventions–do you think Hungary will be in danger of being jettisoned from the EU?

Deakista
Guest

Not really.

The USA will protect hungary as a “valuable asset”

Obama seems to be working hard to cause moderate/strong damage to Europe.

Guest

However appalling for politically correct left-liberals, and however irritatingly populist from their point of view, Orbán does make some very valid points, to my mind at least.

The trouble is that the credibility of the valid points he makes is totally undermined by his pseudo-Christian posturing, the illiberal garbage that he spouts, and the legalized criminality of his actions as Hungary’s capo di capo and Mafia godfather.

Webber
Guest

Slow down a bit with generalizations about people of this or that political bent. This liberal, for one, whole-heartedly agrees with Orban when he says Europe should send more money (to the UNHCR, Red Crescent, etc.) and resources (tents, blankets, medicines, supplies) to improve life in refugee camps in Turkey, Jordan, etc. The US should too, for that matter.
Give credit where credit is due. A vak tyúk is szemre találhat.

István
Guest

As of August 4, 2015 the United States of America has provided $4.1 billion in humanitarian aid to Syrian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey. The United States remains the single-largest donor of humanitarian aid for those affected by Syria crisis. I doubt the U.S. Congress is going to approve higher levels of funding for these refugees. As American Hungarians may be aware President Obama has directed his administration to accept 10,000 additional Syrian refugees in the next fiscal year. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/10/president-obama-directs-administration-to-accept-at-least-10000-syrian-refugees-in-the-next-fiscal-year/

But because of the extensive post 9/11 security checks for these refugees it will likely take a full year before many are admitted. More than likely thousands will be rejected as security risks due to their involvement in the Syrian civil war.

Webber
Guest

A few days ago I heard of a Senate report saying more funds should be sent (didn’t read it myself). According to the fellow who told me about it, part of the reasoning was humanitarian, part was that camps could become hotbeds of terrorism if they are not made decent.
I am not saying that the help is necessarily on the way. I am saying that some Americans, including some senators, think it should be sent.
It just makes sense for the US to help. An ounce of prevention….
It also makes people feel good.

Guest

@Webber
September 13, 2015 at 4:25 am

Touché.

:-))

Member

I wish someone asked Orban what is his opinion of the refugees of 56. How about the Hungarian immigrants of the early 20th Century? What is his take on the Hungarian immigrants of 1945-46? I would honestly love to hear his answers.

Guest
@Some1 September 12, 2015 at 11:32 pm I think it is a profound categorial error to conflate the twentieth century waves of Hungarian emigration and the 1956 refugees with the current massive inflow into Europe by African, Middle Eastern and Central/South Asian asylum seekers. To the best of my recollection, Hungarian emigrants and 1956 refugees did not simply push themselves into the countries where they desired to resettle, regardless of any law or public order. They might indeed have pushed into Austria in 1956 (and to a much lesser extent into Yugoslavia, then still a bitter enemy of the Hungarian communists). But in Austria they were warmly welcomed by a populace full of fellow-feelings of profound anti-communism, and then onforwarded to third countries in a very orderly manner as quickly as was practicable. The key point is that Hungarians of 1956 weren’t pushing into any countries where they were unwanted. Thus, today not even Turkey or Jordan are genuine analogies to the Austria of 1956, because at best they remain reluctant recipients of Anti-Assad Syrians (and for very good reasons, in many of the cases, from a Turkish or Jordanian point of view). And Hungarians certainly had no intention of… Read more »
Member
@Mike Balint Yes, these are the “excuses” that Orban would come up with. I would like to point out that to reach “safe heaven”. Hungarians have not been guilty in “systematic gang-rapes of local girls in the countries in which they were able to resettle”, but they committed as many crimes as many other nations. You are fear mongering you see without any proof for the contrary. You are saying that Syrian refugees would go on and gang-rape? Canada has thousands of Syrian refugees and I yet to her about some gang-rape or that they try to “remold their new country”. Hungarian refugees at the time (and later years) were treated with respect, provided with food and clothes, and transportation to the country that took them on. Hungarian refugees in fact created their own micro communities in most countries (their own churches, schools, programs) very often with huge grants by the local governments. This is true for Canada, the USA, and Australia. In Austria there was huge Hungarian community already because of historical decisions made by other inapt governments of the past. What essentially you are saying is exactly what Orban is saying all along: Hungarians are better, cleaner, whiter,… Read more »
Guest
@Some1 September 13, 2015 at 9:13 am –“What essentially you are saying is exactly what Orban is saying all along: Hungarians are better, cleaner, whiter, their religion is the true one, overall they are inferior. Is it what yo try to convene, because it certainly reads like that. So just we know that angle you are coming from.”– This is your construction of what I was saying, and you are of course perfectly entitled to interpret what I said any way you wish. As to your first paragraph, I should admittedly have made it clear when I was writing about the pack rapes, that I was was thinking in particularof the Northern English (Pakistani) and Swedish (mixed Middle Eastern) examples, without any thought or intention of besmirching either the current batch of Syrians or any other Syrians. That was thoughtless of me, and apologies for it. As to your second and third paragraphs, I am in complete agreement with you. As to your fourth paragraph, I categorically deny claiming or implying in any shape or form that “Hungarians are better, cleaner, whiter, their religion is the true one, overall they [the asylum seekers] are inferior.” First, that would have been… Read more »
Member

It is not my “construction”. It is my conclusion based on your assessment of why should everyone stay where they are (except of course the literate, educated, religiously fit, etc…)

Катя (@katerine256)
Guest

to Some1:
Well, when we talk about Hungarians immigrants we deal with labor migration. A lot of people coming from Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan now are not labor migrants. Most of them don’t have any intention to work, Europe is a kind of Promised Land with free money and housing for them. On top of this they don’t share any culture with Europeans. Have you seen pictures of these new migrants leaving trash and shit behind themselves, breaking into the stores, ruining streets? How can you even compare them to Hungarians?

Andrea
Guest

He has already said in an interview with an Austrian TV station that when the 1956 refugees were fleeing Hungary, they were rounded up, put into camps, had to apply as asylum seekers as per the law, then wait for the result of their application while in camps and then finally they were granted asylum wherever in the world. They were not walking across countries and highways, wherever they wanted, they had to abide by the rules of asylum. All he is asking is that these refugees also abide by the rules. Which most of them are not doing.

Member

Here are some people Hungary should be proud of.

Guest

@Some1
September 12, 2015 at 11:35 pm

Absolutely.

Very, very proud indeed.

And thanks very much for putting it up.

Guest

OT

I have just been shocked to hear, fully reconfirmed, that the father of the poor little Kurdish boy washed up on a beach in the Aegean Sea, was in fact a human trafficker paid to take a group across to Greece, and it was him who was actually driving the flimsy boat (without even any life jackets for his “passengers”) that then sank under him and his group.

Member

Can I have the CONFIRMED link? Was he on trial? Did it occur to you that the other passenger spreading the news could be the human trafficker, who scared to be charged, so accuses others? I am not saying who did it, I am only saying you should be very careful choosing your words. If I accuse on these pages of something, does it make it true?

Guest

@Some1
September 13, 2015 at 9:17 am

You are absolutely right about this.

I heard this story on the ABC (which is like the CBC in Canada), which I found to be an invariably solid and highly reliable source of information over the years.

It was related by one of the woman passengers who also lost two children when the boat sank.

I think that the ABC was actually relaying this story from the BBC.

And you are right, I should be using my words more carefully.

Guest

The German 800,000 (this year, next year and subsequent years)

I trust the Germans are aware that the 800,000 asylum seekers they have most generously offered to take in this year is likely to balloon to between three to four million persons by the time the family reunification programs run their course over the next few years, even if only immediate family members are accepted under the programs, rather than entire extended families or clans.

Same for next year’s contingent, and for all subsequent contingents too.

Hard to know how many of these persons will end up as welfare burdens, how many (or their children) will turn into violent jihadists biting the hand that feeds them, and how many will actually become productive contributors to the German economy.

The kind and generous Germans (and Swedes) are however quite happy to be buying a pig in a poke, it would seem, and good luck to them of course.

Webber
Guest

Germany is being generous. We should honor that – tip our hats to it – and that is all.
You may be sure that they are debating any problems they may face – and those problems are theirs, not ours. Also, there is no telling what those may be. You can’t be absolutely sure that their refugees now will have that many children (note, there are relatively few women among them). Compared with France or England, the Germans haven’t had such serious problems with their Turkish-German population (where are the their terrorists?) Perhaps Germany will be as successful at integrating Syrians who, after all, grew up in a relatively secular country.
Jonathan Freedland yesterday pointed out that according to some estimates, because of Germany’s demographic crisis the country will need to have on average more than 500,000 immigrants a year just to maintain its population. His piece is well worth reading. You can find it here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/11/merkel-ugly-german-history

jeannnn
Guest

Integration is also a question of the economy. Germany’s economy is in great shape and thus people have jobs, money. In fact Germany is sucking up people from all over the CEE. This means that even brown-skinned immigrants can get jobs and also that indigenous Germans are busy doing what they are doing and spending their money.

France’s economy has been struggling for over ten years now and by struggling I mean not being able to provide jobs for the younger generation (obviously the preset living standard in France is many times better than the Hungarian). I’m not surprised that the most problems are in France.

Webber
Guest

Fortunately, it appears that most of the refugees want to go to Germany and other countries that can give them work. They don’t appear to be interested in spending their lives on the dole. If they wanted to live without work, they might have stayed in the refugee camps instead of expending so much effort to travel so far. N’est-ce pas?

Member

Orban would give them work. You know there are great forced labour programs of Hungary below minimum wage. As Hungarians travel for better life to there countries there will be hundreds of jobs that Orban can fill and do not even have to pay fair market value…

LwiiH
Guest

It might be that they bring home a lot of factory jobs that are currently in other countries.

Guest

Not only that – Germany (and other “developed” countries too probably) urgently need “Handwerker” i e craftsmen or handymen:
From bakers to bricklayers – there are not enough young Germans who want to do those “dirty” jobs!
The same goes for cleaners, nurses, hairdressers, cooks etc.
And I’ve already posted several examples of immigrants who do these jobs – very well, so that everybody is happy.
PS:
Of course there you might have some competition for those Eastern Europeans (including Hungarians …) who also work in these jobs …

Guest
@Webber September 13, 2015 at 5:08 am You are right about most things that you say in your post. First, let me make it clear that far be it from me to try to teach the Germans how to suck eggs. That there are relatively few women among the refugees is precisely the reason that family reunification, including the importation of brides from the Middle East will become an urgent issue in the near future. I think that there are two main reasons why Germany had little serious problems with the Turks/Kurds in Germany and no terrorists from those communities. One, that the guestworkers came from a highly secularised NATO member, and the people of Turkey had in any case never shown much interest or attraction toward the extreme, jihadist forms Islam that have become popular in the Arabic world. Second, that in contrast to the failed multicultural model in Britain and the failed unicultural model in France, the Germans established a live and let live semi-apartheid model, and naturalised only about a quarter of their Turkish/Kurd residents, who tended to retain a very strong and unconflicted Turkish/Kurdish identity in a social environment where there was little or no overt… Read more »
Gabor
Guest

As a Hungarian citizen, I think Orbán is populist, but he’s true mainly at the end of the day – yes, we should take care more, but first of all we need to handle our in-house issues, and it’s pity there are no enough resources of an almost bankrupt country to take care our people neither. It’s a fact that Hungary is fuckedup recently from the economic perspective, no financial room for dealing immigrants. Actually I am fed up because just go to the Hungarian countryside and help those who live in deep poorness (give food, quality education, healthcare…) instead of the Keleti Railway station. And me at leat totally agree w/ Orban based on my own work experiences with Arabs, that on the long run Christian Europe is that. Being superdemocrat & -liberal is really easy sipping coffee in other welfare country. Please don’t judge.

Guest
@Gabor September 13, 2015 at 4:44 am With all due respect, judge we must. Orbán could have got plenty of funds and other assistance from the UN, EU, Germany, the Red Cross, the Catholic Church (not the Hungarian branch), and even international Jewish welfare agencies, if only he asked or was willing to receive. Instead, what little money he has, he spends on a useless fence along the Serbian border costing millions upon millions of euros, and from this time forward on soldiers to patrol it. This is like having a problem with your wife and kicking the dog to somehow make yourself feel better about it. Not to mention that the fucked up condition of much of the Hungarian countryside, particularly in the east, is largely due to the fucked up policies or even complete lack of appropriate policies not just by Orbán, but all of the governments that preceded his. In particular, in the last few years there was of course plenty of money for football stadiums and for lining the pockets of the locust swarm of Hungarians corruptly misappropriating funds, many of whom became forint billionaires in the course. But no money to sort out and lift… Read more »
Guest

Here I have to totally agree with you, Mike! Whenever we take a walk through our (relatively prosperous …) village near the Balaton I have to wonder why there was no money to renovate some houses e g and we also wonder about those poor old people living there – how do they manage on the minimal pension they get?

And when we visit my wife’s relatives in Eastern Hungary it looks much, much worse.

Member

Totally agree Mike! Gabor you seem like a very decent man, who are open to real news. Not all Syrians identify themselves as Arabs by the way. I did too meet Syrians and Arabs, and let me tell you my experience was very much the opposite from yours. I know some elementary school teachers, film directors, and a shop keeper. I find them very hard working and pleasant.

“Being superdemocrat & -liberal is really easy sipping coffee in other welfare country. Please don’t judge.”
Many of us have families in Hungary, so although I am sipping my coffee, I also read the news, and listen to as what my family is saying (thanks to Skype). Expecting for the world to help out but not taking any criticism, not having any of other’s opinions is what Orban does best, so do not take this blog on the wrong way.

spectator
Guest

One (kind of) question Gabor:
Just how came, the first time Hungarians recognise the shortages about the living standards of the poor Hungarian people on the countryside or/and elsewhere, only when there are people who on the run get help?

How came, it wasn’t problem to spend money on totally useless projects – like stadiums for nonexistent sport, ugly statues and flashy buildings, instead of taking care of the Hungarian people first?

Why is that, that nobody complains when the education and the healthcare in ruins, but the “Almighty Ruler” spend countless billions on vanity projects – like moving to the palace right now, or applying for the Olympics – while children starving and poverty the national standard.

Its quite alright, that Matolcsy juggling with billions, but hard to accept that people in need got humanitarian help – mostly from private persons, who took up the duty of the state, while Orbán and his cronies busy to fill their own pockets, while driving the country into un-christian and un-European path in exchange.

What about your judgement?
Do you agree with this?

Guest

“Christian Europe”?
You guys are really funny in a way (that goes for Mike B too):
The old Hungarian syndrome again?
No, we’re different …

Webber
Guest

Wolfi – I agree with your implicit sarcasm.
If Europe is Christian, it will act in accordance with the teachings of Christ. (Thank you Germany – from me – for actually doing so now).
People who say “keep out the refugees” to “save Christian Europe” have no idea what Christianity means. They should be honest and admit that what they want to “save” is, perhaps, pagan, or agnostic, or just consumerist. Christian it ain’t.
Those Hungarians living in Western countries who use this “save Christian Europe” line probably never read the Bible – given where they came from, that’s understandable I guess.

Guest

Thank you, Webber!
I just found this new article in the SPIEGEL on immigration and emigration to/from Germany:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/fluechtlinge-wie-migranten-deutschland-gepraegt-haben-a-1051994.html

Even if you can’t read German – just look at the central graph that shows how millions of people crossed the German borders permanently in the last two Centuries.
Armuts- und Arbeits-Migration is the title – that’s what made people come /leave:
The poor and those looking for work – and a better life generally, not so different from the Irish in the 19th Century, the Hungarians after WW2 and those Syrians and Africans right now.
Of course it would be better to help those people in their home countries but we know that for several reasons ths is almost impossible right now.

Guest

@wolfi
September 13, 2015 at 5:15 am

Hey wolfi, where did I say anything about “Christian Europe”?

Most of Europe today is absolutely and categorically post-Christian, and who gives a heck about a “Christian Europe” today, apart from some delusional East European populists like Orbán?

Who, I would guess, does not actually believe any of the crap he spouts for the benefit of the great unwashed about Hungary being a self-appointed fortress of Christianity defending a “Christian Europe” against the Moslem hordes.

So please do not put words in my mouth.

Much thanks for that. :-))

Guest

I quoted Gabor there …
Don’t you find it strange that his and your reasoning sound so similar?

Guest

@wolfi
September 13, 2015 at 5:43 am

My reasoning where?

Because it seems to me that in my post above I was sharply critical of Gabor’s reasoning.

You might have misconstrued that post or some of my posts before.

At the same time, I freely admit that I am not a politically correct left-liberal, but a libertarian and rationalist, orthogonal to the right/left distinction in politics, thus unwilling to summarily reject all politically incorrect argument, particularly when such rejection would be not on substance, but on the principle that they ought to be rejected just because they happen to be politically incorrect.

As an incorrigible iconoclast, I am happy and willing to listen to all sides, then draw my own conclusions, rather than follow any herd.

Webber
Guest
Points where Orban is wrong: 1. the hate campaign in Hungary, now seemingly ending (you all know what I mean – starting with the billboards) 2. that there is a clear difference between people “just” looking for work (megélhetési bevándorlók) and people running for their lives (menekültek). There is actually a large grey zone between the two. One can be the other (someone running from catastrophe also must look for work)- a person without work will starve sooner or later – a person with work that does not pay enough to sustain his/her life is in dire straits – refugees, also, may have preferences about where to live…etc. 3. that someone looking for a better life is in no way refugee. The term economic refugee (gazdasági menekült) exists for a reason. 4. that there is some problem with going to another country “just” to look for work. Actually, young people who leave their country “just” to succeed or earn more money elsewhere are often the most motivated, and may be the most successful at integrating in their new countries. Among this group, we can count the c. 1/2 m. Hungarians who have left Hungary over the past years. Who are… Read more »
kolbász
Guest

I’m a Hungarian and the term ‘megélhetési bevándorló’ to me implies people who want to come to rely on the public services and don’t plan to ‘contribute’. Of course most would not be eligible, but this is just what people think, that once you appear you can and will claim all those rich benefits. I’m may be wrong, I don’t use these terms and my friends neither, but this is how I hear it. Certainly ‘megélhetési’ based on the usage in megélhetési bűnöző (ie. dirty criminal gipsy) or megélhetési politikus (corrupt politician doing nothing for the public good) is very pejorative.

Guest
@Webber September 13, 2015 at 5:26 am Excellent points, Webber, but I would venture to add four more to balance the perspective: Hungarian, and for that matter Jewish asylum seekers and/or economic immigrants have never ever attempted to push themselves into countries regardless of law and public order, and regardless of whether they were wanted or not wanted in those countries (the sole exception being, perhaps, stateless European Holocaust survivors trying to sneak into the British Mandated Territory of Palestine from 1945 to 1948). 2. Hungarian, and for that matter Jewish asylum seekers and/or economic immigrants have never ever attempted to remold the countries in which they resettled in the image of some Hungarian or Jewish medieval Sharia (with Hungarians or secular Jews the issue does not arise at all, and religious Jews keep themselves very much to themselves, and the last thing they want is trying to force everyone else into their ways, except of course in Israel – which is one of the main reason why I am in Australia, rather than Israel). 3. Hungarian, and for that matter Jewish asylum seekers and/or economic immigrants have never ever engaged in systematic gang-rapes of girls or other similarly violent… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Really? No Jewish immigrants ever attempted to push themselves into countries regardless of the law?
So, the following never happened?

There was no Irgun?
Slow down, please, with ethnic and religious stereotypes.
Sometimes you know, Mike, the law stinks and should be violated.
To clarify that, and before I’m deliberately misunderstood – I hereby confirm the right – no, not the right, the absolute necessity of the existence of Israel.

It is more than a little ridiculous when Orban wants to protect Europe (since when did he care so much? He, who compared Brussels with the Soviet Union..)
It’s also a bit weird that you want to protect Germany/Europe and “Christian culture” using the arguments that you have.
In case you didn’t notice, Germany never asked for and doesn’t want or need your or Orban’s protection. (Európát megvédi a bolha???)
If you think a little harder, you’ll discover that plenty of so-called Christian immigrants have acted badly. You mentioned Italian Mafia and Central American gangs. You might add neo-nazis among certain immigrant groups.
Does this mean that Italians should never have been allowed into the US, Australia, etc.?
A minority of Muslims have acted in an awful manner. Does this mean it was a mistake to admit all Muslims?

Guest

Webber
September 13, 2015 at 6:33 am

I think that it is you who actually ought to slow down, since if you read the second paragraph in my post above, you will find the following caveat, and I quote:

“(the sole exception being, perhaps, stateless European Holocaust survivors trying to sneak into the British Mandated Territory of Palestine from 1945 to 1948).”

So I have no argument at all that there was an Irgun, a Hagana and illegal immigrants to pre-Israel Palestine.

But this caveat I put on my assertion in my second paragraph actually comprises the sole exception to the rule, an exception which some may understandingly forgive in light of the Holocaust, some may not, and some may regard as an entirely foolhardy venture that would sooner or later end in another disaster for the Jews.

And let me state it categorically, that I have no intention whatsoever of deliberately misunderstanding you, in fact we are in furious agreement in many respects.

It seems to me though that the series of questions you pose in your second paragraph set up straw men to beat and frame the issues in ways I never intended, thus indeed deliberately misconstrue what I actually said.

Guest
@Webber September 13, 2015 at 6:33 am Now item by item: — “It is more than a little ridiculous when Orban wants to protect Europe (since when did he care so much? He, who compared Brussels with the Soviet Union..)” Completely agree. — “It’s also a bit weird that you want to protect Germany/Europe and “Christian culture” using the arguments that you have.” — I wasn’t proposing to protect Germany/Europe and “Christian culture” with my arguments. That is your construction on what I said, grabbing onto implications that are simply not there. — “In case you didn’t notice, Germany never asked for and doesn’t want or need your or Orban’s protection. (Európát megvédi a bolha???)” That is a straw man and a complete non sequitur to what I actually said. –“If you think a little harder, you’ll discover that plenty of so-called Christian immigrants have acted badly. You mentioned Italian Mafia and Central American gangs. You might add neo-nazis among certain immigrant groups.”– I have never denied that. As you say, I even mentioned it. In previous posts too. Though may I remind you that in this post I was talking only about Hungarians and Jews, whilst clearly excluding both… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Okay. Felment bennem a pumpa. Sorry about that. Strawman arguments – you are right about those too. One or two work if I am thinking of Orban. You, however, are obviously not Orban. I still think your harping on certain “dangers” of Muslims in Europe is unjust. No-go areas – sure, I am well acquainted with these. Ones that come to mind: Oakland, California. Certain parts of Detroit. Rather large areas of LA. Well-to-do people who drive into these areas are advised not to stop, not to leave their cars, and to keep the doors locked. Oddly, there are almost no Muslims in the no-go areas I am thinking of. Funny, isn’t it? I wonder how that is? Others – in the U.K.: certain parts of Liverpool, Glasgow, and Manchester that have virtually no Muslims also are no-go areas. Here’s one: If you want to put religion in it, I suggest you visit certain parts of Belfast. In Catholic parts, try wearing orange – an orange scarf is fetching and practical. In other places, try conspicuously wearing a crucifix, and just for fun cross yourself and kiss it whenever you pass by a Church. See what happens. I am sure… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Mike – also: The term Eurabia is nasty.
Currently, the EU as a whole has 6% Muslim population. Bulgaria has the highest percentage – 13.7% Muslims. This is for historical reasons, not because of migration.
France comes in second, with 7.5%. Germany has 5.8%, or a little less than the EU average. Given the greater growth of the Muslim population (more births + more immigration), the EU as a whole should end up with about 8% Muslim population by 2030.
To put that into perspective, the current population of Israel is 16.9% Muslim. That is, by population, there is a far greater percentage of Muslim citizens of Israel than of any EU country.
Of the Muslims in the EU, many are Turks or other native Europeans (Goranis, Albanians, Pomaks, Bosniaks). Some are Muslims from Central Asia or the Caucasus. Some are of other ethnicity. I have no idea how many are of Arab descent – but wouldn’t be surprised if Arabs were a minority even among the very small Muslim minority in Europe today.
Some data here – just check it for yourself:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/
You are contributing to hatred and a grotesque lie when you use the term Eurabia.

Guest

@Webber
September 13, 2015 at 12:21 pm

I agree and I shall desist.

Guest
@Webber September 13, 2015 at 11:51 am Good points Webber, and I agree. There is however a difference between home grown thugs creating no-go areas and the wisdom of importing thugs who then create the same. in any case, I would like to make it very clear (belatedly) that religion is actually not at all my major concern with Moslems, except in the case of the jihadist minority and those non-jihadists who allow the jihadists to flourish among them, like fish in water. My main concern is with the cultural incompatibility of many things customary in non-European, mainly Moslem lands, that hark back to very ancient times and have not really got anything to do with Islam as such, as people simply carried on with them after becoming Moslem in the early Middle Ages. Treating women as chattels come to mind, honour killings, female genital mutilation, girl-child marriages to adult males, generations-long blood feuds, piracy, kidnapping for ransom, tribal and clan loyalties above all, profound suspicion and resentment of modernity, a propensity to deceive and stab in the back anyone not of the clan or tribe, to smile in your face while deceiving you and stabbing you in the back,… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Here is one of the results of Muslim immigration to Europe. Not such bad one:

And here’s another result – also not at all bad:

Seems to me that integration is fully possible.

spectator
Guest

The interview gives a pretty good picture of a sociopath with God-complex…
He is the one and only who knows:

“if Europe allows a competition of cultures, then the Christians will lose. These are the facts.”

Mind you, he has no particularly strong belief in Christianity – or culture in general – but then again, he is not in the position to have adequate validation on those subjects, you know.
One has to be truly cultured and Christian for that…

However, now we learned that he, and he alone the only hope of Europe, so the only thing to do is to give him the all the power and means he needs.
Then send home people like Merkel and Hollande to tend their garden and play with their pets – Viktor kan take care of things in no time, in the whole Europe!

I don’t really understand, how the others don’t see this, because it is so clear and self explanatory!

“These are the facts!” – as we heard…

Ron
Guest

Eva: “This pronouncement can easily be turned against Orbán. What about those half a million Hungarians who left Hungary in hope of a better life in Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and other western European countries? Surely, they left because they can make a great deal more money in western Europe than in Hungary. ”

Again thank you for a good piece, However, the aforementioned was not in the article of the Bild. VO never makes a statement about (500,000) these quantities, because if he makes them his budget will be immediately reduced (the funds from the EU). It is a public secret that 500,000 working abroad, but these people are still included in the statistic of people living in Hungary.

In my opinion the Bild missed an opportunity.

Tyrker
Guest

“Those on the other side of the Serb-Hungarian fence, however, should “go back.” In this context, “back” means back to the refugee camps in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan. These countries should be given massive financial support by the European Union.”

Fair enough. But apart from the EU, the US, the Gulf monarchies and Israel ought to offer help too.

Guest

@Tyrker
September 13, 2015 at 7:11 am

Of course, goes without saying.

Webber
Guest

Tyrker You are absolutely right – everyone should give more! The US has, according to the last report I saw, given more than $4 bn so far to refugee camps, but I agree it should give much, much more. It’s money well spent. Apart from humanitarian considerations, making camps decent places makes them less likely to foster terrorism.

exTor
Guest
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/09/12/viktor-orbans-interview-with-bild/#comment-101800 … Mike Balint comment “remolding their new countries … version[s] of Sharia … guilty of systematic gangrapes of local girls … [where] they … resettle[d].” I object to the racist undercurrent that swirls your response to Some1, who later pointed to its inherent fearmongering. There’s a nasty preachiness to your post, something that I’ve seen before, specifically when I called you out (a couple of times) on some of your sexist responses, Mike Balint. You mention “inherent risks”, “willing to fit”, “European Enlightenment”, “primitive peasant peoples”, “incompatible … values”, “social underclass” and other bits of tendentiousness in subsequent comments. Thus you feed us your tiresome warnings in the hopes that we succumb to your malaise. You need to know, Mike Balint, that no amount of refugee vetting can produce the societal surety you seem to require. Only a fool would believe otherwise. Shit can happen anywhere and in any society. Your attempts to inculcate suspicion by pointing to an unprovable potential are bothersome. Lest you forget, the worst recent act of terrorism in Europe occurred in Oslo in 2011, when a genetic Scandinavian murdered 77 people on the same day that I arrived in Canada 6 decades earlier. Exactly.… Read more »
Guest

@exTor
September 13, 2015 at 2:23 pm

You are right, exTor, I was wrong in making those comments.

The above exchanges with Webber, Some1, Wolfi and Éva had however well and truly convinced me of the error of my ways.

This is the value of conducting a vigorous dialogue about a contentious subject and getting strong feedback and counterarguments from interlocutors.

I have no particular attachment to any of the points I make here or anywhere else. They stand as long as they are defensible and discarded once they are not.

Incidentally, politically I am a libertarian and a rationalist. Both are orthogonal to the right/left distinction in politics. I can understand however that to you this political stance may indeed seem as being a closet right winger. Well, so be it, if you wish.

Webber
Guest

When you started a post with a scree against your own straw man, “politically correct left-liberals,” and later used certain words about Muslims (which you now regret), you did give the impression of being rather far to the right.
Are you libertarian, and AND a rationalist? Your words above did not suggest that at all. Still, I’ll take your word for it. It’s a nice combination.
That would make you an anarchist! 🙂

Guest

Germany just now “closed its borders” – effectively they’ll ask everyone to show documents, I don’t know what will happen if a family just says “Asylum!”
Might happen that Austria does the same – will all the refugees then have to stay in Hungary?
I’m really sad and astonished in a way that European politicians did nor foresee this – these people have travelled for some time, they did not just appear out of nowhere …

A bit OT:
This reminds me a bit of the fall of the Socialist Block in 1989 – Western politicians should have known how horrible the situation was in Eastern Europe, but they were (acted?) so surprised …

Member

Orban’s Oratory Urbi et Orbi: September 15 2015

Instead of preaching to the world — on the strength of his inspiring personal integrity plus his stunning success in finance and governance (“Hungary Performs Better“) — about how to do go about managing world crises, Orban might start by providing the humanitarian help to the asylum-seekers that decency demands rather than the hate campaigns, racism, and razor-fences which were his sole preparation for the crisis he was anticipating, and fomenting, months in advance. and which he followed with the equally well-rehearsed legalistic, “minimal-letter-of-the-law” justifications and rationalizations, while hurtling on to what was the real goal along: a pretext for adopting police-state legislation on September 15…
comment image

petofi
Guest

Many knee-jerk liberals spout the modern mantra without any specific knowledge of what they speak of.

Mr. ExTor, have you any idea how Moslems denuded Kosovo of their one time,Serbian majority?
I doubt it.
Let me fill you in from a friend of ours who now lives in Dakar, Senegal: “The Moslem men in our community would wait until our men went to work and then they would stand just outside our house and peer in all day long. After a while, it became unbearable…” she said.

Here’s something else for your pro-Muslimists:

“Islamic extremists are stepping up the creation of “no-go” areas in European cities that are off-limits to non-Muslims.

Many of the “no-go” zones function as microstates governed by Islamic Sharia law. Host-country authorities effectively have lost control in these areas and in many instances are unable to provide even basic public aid such as police, fire fighting and ambulance services.”
–from the International Council of the Gatehouse Institute

–In France, there are today more than 40 such districts governed by Sharia Law.

Try and get it in your heads: the threat posed by the strategy of the Imams is REAL.

Webber
Guest

Petofi – I suggest you avoid references to European history in future, because you get things seriously wrong. Stick with Israel and Hungary, which you know. I also suggest you do a little studying about what you’ve already said. It was wrong.
1st – look into when Kosovo became majority Albanian. You’ll find some dispute on dates among scholars, but you’ll find no disagreement that it was centuries ago (many date it to the Serbian Great Migration – look that up, too).
2nd – look into when Albanians, particularly Northern Albanians, became Muslim, and look into composition of Albanians in Kosovo.
3rd – look at the Catholic Albanians of Kosovo, who also had something to do with all this.
If you do that, you’ll find that the replacement of Serbian speakers by Albanian speakers (and in many cases, people changed the tongue they spoke), was not necessarily related to religion.
“In France … more than 40 districts governed by Sharia Law”
In every corner of France, French national law is in effect. That some people (Orthodox Jews, included) resolve certain issues without turning to state courts does not invalidate that statement. Stop visiting neo-nazi websites for information.

tappanch
Guest

The tens of thousands of refugees/migrants that arrived and will arrive at the Serbian-Hungarian border on September 13 and 14 will be the responsibilities of Hungary and (and until it also closes its border) Austria.

Hungarian government has incentive NOT to register the new migrants on these two days but to send them to Austria ASAP.

Orban has to accept the quota system at the meeting of interior ministers tomorrow to be able to move most of them to other EU countries.

Member
Every religious or political groups have their extremists but you cannot judge all members of the said group the same. Look the extremists on this site. hahaha New York ultra-Orthodox Are Following Israel’s Bad Example read more: http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/david-s-harp/.premium-1.628581 ” Naftuli Moster was in his final year of college when he first heard the word “molecule.” He was also flummoxed by words like “high school diploma” and “essay,” although ostensibly he had completed 12 years of education. Moster didn’t grow up in the heart of Geula or Bnei Brak, but in the United States – Brooklyn to be exact. Borough Park to be even more exact. Until he took the daring step of enrolling at the College of Staten Island, his education was limited to the curriculum offered at Yeshiva Machzikei Belz. read more: http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/david-s-harp/.premium-1.628581 Ultra-Orthodox Jews Pose Challenges In Israel “Relations between Haredim and other Israelis have never been smooth. Critics have long complained that they shun work in large numbers in favor of religious study, rejecting mainstream Israel even as they rely on that mainstream for financial support. But increasingly, even some Haredim share a sense that things cannot continue as they are. “http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/israel-ultraorthodox-jews_n_809003.html Inside the private world of… Read more »
Катя (@katerine256)
Guest

“Every religious or political groups have their extremists but you cannot judge all members of the said group the same”. It’s true, but # of Muslim extremists is just larger.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. Do we have non-Muslim analogues of Al Qaeda, ISIS,…?

Member

Катя (@katerine256): “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. Do we have non-Muslim analogues of Al Qaeda, ISIS,…?”

Yup: http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

Guest

@Some1
September 13, 2015 at 5:26 pm

The similarities between the ways of minority cults of ultraorthodox Jews and the ways of Islamic Sharia are very obvious (as are the similarities between some of the practices of mainstream Jews and that of mainstream Moslems).

Both ways spring from the same medieval mudhole and remain stuck in it.

The difference however is that the cults of ultraorthodox Jews keep themselves to themselves, none engage in missionary activities, except Chabad, whose missionary activities are however directed solely at secular Jews, and none are engaged in any kind of jihadist or other terrorist activities.

This is in stark contrast to Sharia driven Islam.

Member

I am talking about integration, you are talking about terrorists. Not every community raises terrorists, as not every family raises serial killers, bank robbers, impaired drivers…..

spectator
Guest

Ultra-Orthodox Allegedly Christian Sect In Budapest Bans Citizens From Shopping on Sundays!

petofi
Guest

Muslim no-go zones in major European cities.

See: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones

Webber
Guest

Look at the list of “no-go zones” I provided above. Nary a Muslim in them. “No-go zones” are called slums by most of us.

petofi
Guest

And my wife’s comment on the migrants:

“Isn’t it odd that these Muslims don’t pray?”

I wonder why…

Webber
Guest

Good! So, apparently they aren’t Muslim extremists. Some of them might not even be Muslims. They could be Christians, or people of other faiths, or even (gasp!) agnostics or atheists.
Faith isn’t genetic, you know.

Member

“Donald Trump says if you’re from Syria and a Christian, you can’t come to the U.S. as a refugee”

“Between Oct. 1, 2014, and July 17, 2015, according to federal data, 859 Sunni Muslims, five Shiite Muslims and 42 people identified only as “Muslim” arrived in the United States as refugees from Syria, for a total of 906. Meanwhile, 28 Christians arrived from Syria. (Other arrivals included two atheists, two of the Baha’i faith and one with no stated religion.)”

That is 3% Christians. Likely that is the accurate number for all.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jul/20/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-if-youre-syria-and-christianyou-/

spectator
Guest

But – perhaps, as compensation – yesterday a religious and nationalist extremist group rallied front of the offices of a magazine, for depicting their prophet unfavourably, demanding that the editor should apologise and resign. Slight consolation that they left the AKs at home this time.

You se, there is a golden lining after all!

The incriminating image:

http://444.hu/2015/09/10/hitler-bajszos-orbannal-a-cimlapjan-jelent-meg-a-mai-a-magyar-narancs/

The rally of the zealots:

http://444.hu/2015/09/13/1500-bekemenetes-tuntet-a-magyar-narancs-ellen/

Webber
Guest

Mike and Petofi –
You both sound, more or less (one more, one less), like bigots when you “warn” us about Muslims. People other than you have experience with Muslims, you know.
In addition to pop stars (such as the two I posted above), sympathetic classmates and neigbors, and a host of other positive experiences, Western Europeans might well think of the following when Muslims are mentioned – from m. 3:00:

petofi
Guest

Go ahead and burnish your halo, Webber. You’ll be one of the millions who’ll be hoisted by your own petard-

Webber
Guest

Hoisted by whom? By extremists like these people (below)? I have a feeling you’d be the first to hang me. Anyway… I’m not too fond of the music, but..

Bring ’em on!

Webber
Guest

Here’s another performance, this time from a Muslim from Novi Pazar (a Serbian town with a Muslim majority). Emina Jahovic. She looks so different from normal Europeans, doesn’t she? She was obviously raised in an extremist Muslim environment. I, for one, am terrified.

Guest
Guest

Do we really need to import muslims to Hungary if our brother Hungarian Imam Ahmed Miklós Kovács says things like “Homosexuals Are the Filthiest Creatures”? This guy (gay 🙂 is the Vice President of the Hungarian Muslim Community.

[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdgWpfOePTk&w=420&h=315%5D

Webber
Guest

G. Nagy – blech!
Well – you can’t deny that the guy is fully integrated into mainstream Hungarian culture. Indeed, he sounds like a native Hungarian – so I suppose he is.
Certainly, he’s no wimpy left-liberal of the sort some people above have been excoriating.
Jobbik must love him. Calvinist Min. ifj. Hegedűs Loránt would get along well with him too. I wonder if they know each other?

I prefer Emina!

Member

Well, we know some people from this blog who has the same opinion about gypsies, Hungarians, whoever. Now, at least they found some common enemies with Orban. First they get rid off the muslims, then they will support of getting rid of the gypsies. Unfortunately people do not realize that after the muslims, gypsies, homosexuals, there is an other demographic that Orban will move on. ….it will not be the “true Hungarians”

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