Foreign and domestic criticism of Viktor Orbán’s handling of the refugee crisis

While we are waiting for the outcome of the German and Austrian decisions to temporarily close their borders, let’s move on to two other topics. One is the diplomatic squabble between Austria and Hungary and the other is the pro-Fidesz demonstration against Magyar Narancs. The weekly publication appeared on Thursday with a portrait of Viktor Orbán with a mustache made out of the kind of wire used in the fence along the Serb-Hungarian border. The mustache bore a suspicious resemblance to the one Hitler made infamous. A day later Austrian Chancellor Werner Faymann compared Orbán’s refugee policy to the Holocaust in an interview with Der Spiegel. On the very same day the Serbian Blic published a picture of the Hungarian prime minister without a mustache but with two words under his nose: “Orbán, this is shameful.” The paper called him “an evil neighbor [who] sends the police after the refugees, keeps them in dog crates, and feeds them as if they were pigs.”

Let’s start with the Austrian chancellor. It is no secret that Werner Faymann finds Viktor Orbán’s politics unacceptable. Ever since the outbreak of the European refugee crisis Faymann has delivered pointed messages to the Hungarian government. He was perhaps the only European politician who openly talked about limiting the financial contributions of the EU to those countries that are unwilling to cooperate in solving the current crisis. He also made clear that he consider the right of asylum a human right that cannot be taken away from the asylum seekers. The result was the cancellation of a meeting between Orbán and Faymann that was originally scheduled for last week. As it turned out, the two men talked on the telephone several times, but these conversations couldn’t have gone well because last Thursday János Lázár in his weekly press conference called Faymann’s behavior “more than flesh and blood can bear.”

And at that point the Hungarians had not yet read Faymann’s Spiegel interview that appeared on September 12, in which Faymann said: “Refugees stuck in trains, in the belief that they would go somewhere else entirely, bring back memories of the darkest period of our continent.” And he continued: “To divide human rights by religions, is intolerable.” In his opinion, Orbán is pursuing “a deliberate policy of determent.” Orbán’s Hungary as well as other East European countries should be financially penalized, “for example by cutting funds from the structural funds that benefit primarily eastern European member states.” In return, Szijjártó called Faymann a man who is running amuck. He called the chancellor a liar. The spokesman for the party demanded an apology, not just to Viktor Orbán but to the Hungarian nation. The Austrian ambassador to Hungary, for the second time, was called in to the ministry of foreign affairs and trade. The Hungarian ambassador to Austria also had to appear, not to one of the undersecretaries of the foreign ministry but to Chancellor Faymann himself. So, this is where Austro-Hungarian relations are at the moment.

And then there is Magyar Narancs‘s mustache story that greatly upset the leaders of CÖF (Civil Összefogás Fórum). This is an organization that claims to be an independent body but that just happens to support the government. It is financed by taxpayer money. It was CÖF that began an anti-Bajnai-Gyurcsány-Mesterházy campaign before the election campaign could legally begin because it was a civic organization to which the election laws were not applicable. One of the leaders of CÖF is Zsolt Bayer, an anti-Semitic scribbler whose opinion pieces in Magyar Hírlap are disgraceful examples of the worst features of the Orbán regime. Another leader is András Bencsik, who just the other day wrote a post on Facebook in which he defended Petra László, the camerawoman who physically attacked a refugee and his son, as someone who was just helping the work of the police. These are the people who in the past organized huge demonstrations they called “peace marches.” The goal of the demonstrations was to bolster the sagging popularity of Viktor Orbán and show the world that, contrary to most political analysts, the Hungarian prime minister had tremendous support. Hundreds of buses delivered people to these demonstrations from all over the country. According to rumor, they were paid and fed for their trouble.

Well, it seems that CÖF, which even used SMS to gather supporters to demonstrate in front of the editorial offices of Magyar Narancs, couldn’t rally their usual 300,000 people. This time they had to be satisfied with about 3,000 noisy people who enthusiastically demonstrated against any refugee who would dare set foot on Hungarian soil. Zsolt Bayer, who was one of the speakers, demanded a European Union-wide referendum on the issue. He is convinced that out of the 508 million “natives,” 450 million are against allowing these refugees to settle among them. “The Hungarian prime minister represents their opinion and tells the truth on their behalf. He says that which, because of these people’s ‘opinion terror,’ nobody dares say.” I guess “these people” are the liberals Magyar Narancs represents. CÖF promised to organize a new “peace march.”

Today there were two other demonstrations. One was organized by Ferenc Gyurcsány’s Demokratikus Koalíció and the other by Együtt. First DK supporters listened to Ferenc Gyurcsány’s speech, and an hour later the Együtt demonstration began, which DK supporters joined. Népszabadság‘s headline read: “Thousands for Hungary’s humanity.” The speeches by the party leaders were coordinated and focused on the inhumanity of Viktor Orbán and his administration. The demonstrations, though not huge, were impressive given the general anti-refugee sentiment in the country.

Együtt-DK joint demonstration, September 13, 2015

Együtt-DK joint demonstration, September 13, 2015

Who knows what next morning will bring. Who knows whether the introduction of a state of emergency will stop the flow of people across the border. I doubt that it will. And then the world will get to see Hungarian summary justice in action.

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István
Guest
Germany has effectively exited temporarily from the Schengen system with the closing of its borders. German police announced that “hundreds” of officers have been mobilized for border controls, reported AFP news agency’s short while ago. In announcing Germany’s new border restrictions, German Interior Minister de Mazière also called for the creation of what he called “waiting zones” along the union’s external borders where migrants could be registered and wait until they were granted refugee status and assigned to a country. But the refugees don’t want to get sent to EU countries with minimal social welfare benefits like Poland or Hungary so they may riot. They are not stupid and they have relatives and friends who have informed them of the relative social welfare subsides in various nations. Orban has unfortunately been ahead of the curve as I feared a few days ago he might be. “The aim of these measures is to limit the current inflows to Germany and to return to orderly procedures when people enter the country,” German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said a few hours ago. “This is also urgently necessary for security reasons.” Germany’s national railway, Deutsche Bahn, said it had suspended service from Austria… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

“The reason for the possibility of increased harshness towards the refugees will be to establish a deterrent to relatives in the refugee camps back in the Middle East who are in cell phone contact with refugees currently in Europe. ”

If you listen to the podcast of latest Hetes Studio on Klubradio, you can find out from a report by a Turkish journalist that of the estimated two to four million Syrian refugees in Turkey only about 220,000 are in a refugee camp. The rest are all over Turkey, making a living as they can. All these refugees were issued ID cards by the Turkish authorities. The journalist gives his opinion of why the mass migration of these refugees to Western Europe started now:
– loss of hope for improvement in Syria, thus no hope for returning
– deteriorating economy of Turkey, thus fewer jobs
– the increase of oppression of the Kurds in Turkey, which reflects on other minorities too (such as Syrian Arabs)
– the messages from relatives and friends in Germany about the nice conditions there.

gdfxx
Guest

The Romania President, Klaus Iohannis announced that his country is opposed to mandatory quotas for migrants and also to conditioning distributions from the structural funds acceptance of the quotas.

spectator
Guest
“Orban for the moment is the winner.” Winner of what, exactly? Would you mind elaborate on this part a little more? I’m not mocking – for a change – I honestly don’t get it. In my opinion the crap is still en route to the fan, so he hasn’t seen the result of his behaviour yet. The uncivilised and non-European law just about to trade in effect – in my opinion with disastrous consequences – all the other “fruits” of his labour can be summarised with a few words. Some growth in sympathy within his own sect and who feeling that the ‘good old times’ of pogroms within reach? Now even the virtual distance between Jobbik and Fidesz about to disappear, and those who have drifted for the more radical line can feel comfortable back in the barn? I don’t see any other result what even with Orbán’s twisted mind can validate as positive! The other side of the scale seems more loaded: proof of inhumanity and selfishness, lack of cooperation and incompetence of governing, most alarmingly proof that Hungary has been admitted prematurely to the EU. and so on. Once again, I don’t think that Orbán is a winner,… Read more »
Member

Orban isn’t a winner. The refugees are coming. No matter what. Orban was a deer caught in the headlight. He had the warning signs at least two years ago. He had to build camps for tens of thousands of illegals. When he realized the problem, instead of acting, he tried to cover his butt with firing up the usual bunk-o-matic.

The Austrians and the Germans will put these refugees into camps. In Hungary they will roam in the wild. There will be clashes soon between the hateful average Joes and the refugees. I don’t see how this guy, who dropped the ball in such a spectacular way, is a winner.

There is a rumor going around that law enforcement is put on high alert, because tomorrow, one day before Orban’s big hoopla, a cunami of illegals will be expected. Some say even the Serbian police is helping them to get into Hungary. I imagine the poor Hungarian police will just be standing in the intersections to control the traffic and watching the marching refugees …

On the Facebook inhabitants of Country of Maria & Gulash are calling more and more for the order to open fire.

István
Guest

The Austrians and the Germans will try to put the refugees in camps. Let’s not forget the chants of the refugees last week in Hungary – NO camp! Germany!

I don’t think the refugees will be pleased with nice orderly German detention camps. They in fact have just escaped from camps to get to Europe and I don’t blame them in the least for resisting being put in yet another camp be it in Austria or Germany. They want what their cousin Anas has who owns a store in Berlin, they want the land of plenty and quick money that good cousin Anas exaggerated to them about.

Once the Austrian and German police have to get physical with some of the refugees all the international media chatter about the harsh treatment in Hungary, which was true, will be over. Orban is probably counting the minutes until that happens.

Member

So this makes him a winner … I see. There will be problems. But Orban did absolutely nothing to be prepared. Just kept repeating the same things as you are: these unruly moslems will not respect our laws.

Webber
Guest
Istvan – stick to what you know, America and US policy. You are in way over your head when you write about Germany and Austria. What you’ve written above is so off, it almost reads like “wishful thinking” of the sort the Hungarian media and government has engaged in for weeks now (only to be “disappointed” by the humane reality). I’m not even going to try to begin to set you right – all I’ll say is start reading German papers if you can, not the summaries of German papers published in Hungarian media (a clue: Hungarian summaries of German media are as representative and accurate as their idiotic summaries of American news). Something you wrote above about expulsion of illegals in the US is also off: in point of fact, there are now fewer illegals in the US than there were prior to 2008. This is because economic conditions in Mexico have improved, while economic conditions in the US deteriorated – esp. the purchasing power of the minimum wage (not to mention the subminimum that ag. workers get). According to some estimates, there is even now, with the improvement of the economy in the US, a net-zero, or even… Read more »
István
Guest

Webber that is exactly what the data shows, the number of undocumented aliens has declined within the U.S. But there has been an increase in the militarization of the border too. We have also privatized Department of Homeland Security detention camps that hold undocumented aliens pending their expulsion under the Obama administration

There is no reason to believe that the situation in relation to illegal border crossings will go to zero, the situation in Mexico and Central America remains extremely difficult and gangs are effectively running parts of that nation with the support of parts of the Mexican police and military. The average wage is a fraction of what it is even in the cash economy here in the USA.

István
Guest

Webber here is maybe the funniest story about the 100 mile border protection zone in the USA. Willie Nelson the famous country music star got arrested at a Border Patrol check point in Texas in 2010 for possession of marijuana after six ounces were discovered aboard his tour bus. See http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/willie-nelson-arrested-marijuana-posession/story?id=12255712

Webber
Guest

All sorts of strange things go on in Texas! (each state is different you know)
Some mayor of a Texas town recently said his town could not work without the illegal immigrants, and gov. Rick Perry has said some interesting things too. Many cities in the US have ordered their employees not to cooperate with American immigration authorities.
As I suggested above, the American “model” is neither applicable nor appropriate for Europe.
As to that funny episode – Willie is back with a vengeance. Federal law still says this can’t be done – but according to state law, in some places it can be and is done:
http://time.com/3829422/willie-nelson-marijuana-brand/

gdfxx
Guest

“Something you wrote above about expulsion of illegals in the US is also off: in point of fact, there are now fewer illegals in the US than there were prior to 2008. This is because economic conditions in Mexico have improved, while economic conditions in the US deteriorated – esp. the purchasing power of the minimum wage (not to mention the subminimum that ag. workers get).
According to some estimates, there is even now, with the improvement of the economy in the US, a net-zero, or even a net-negative migration to the US.”

Well, how does anyone know? The number of illegal aliens (and that is the lawful name of those, who reside in the US without documents) is estimated between 11 and 40 million. Nobody knows. Nobody counts. Their children, born in the US are US citizens.

By the way, 40% of these illegal aliens are estimated to be people from overseas, who flew in from Europe and other faraway places and then never returned. Again, the 40% is a number that is as much of an estimate as the ones above, for the same reasons.

Member

At the time when Hungary’s PM, Orban does not take any help, Germany asked for help.
They asked for cots, and they received 10,000. Are you listening Orban?

“The Quebec government and the Canadian Red Cross are sending thousands of beds to refugee camps in Germany.

Quebec Public Security Minister Lise Thériault has announced the province will be sending 5,000 folding cots and bed covers to help people fleeing the conflict in Syria.

Thériault said the donation is valued at $1 million.

The Canadian Red Cross is sending an additional 5,000 cots.

Michel Léveillé, head of the Red Cross’s Quebec division, said normally they would have sent cash donations, but Germany had specifically requested material donations such as beds.

Sunday’s announcement comes nearly a week after the Quebec government said it would increase the number of refugees admitted into the province this year from 1,200 up to 3,650
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-cots-syrian-refugees-1.3226406

Member

I stand corrected. Orban finally asked for some help on Friday!
Hungary is receiving EUR 4,000,000 for six months and also asked for bedding and mattresses.
http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/11/agynemukert_kuncsorog_magyarorszag_az_unional/

Member

Yes, that’s close to the the price tag on Orban’s little toy train in Felcsut, in his hometown, they are bulding from taxpayers money.

Member

haha

Latefor
Guest

“Hungarian Spring” is in the making . . .just a matter of time. Hungarians are completely divided. Well done!

Guest

Just saw Mr. Djokovic bag another grand slam title by winning the U.S. Open over Mr. Federer. Lots of hard work went into that one. All in all I’d think that he definitely has had a way better ‘season’ than VO and his crafty cohorts who seem to lose ‘love, love and love’. Lately I’ve been been curious how VO would have managed if he emigrated here to the so-called ‘land of opportunity’. From what I’ve seen I think initially he would look like he would ‘make it’. Unfortunately, though there are things behind the screen that can affect all that. It’s called ‘character’. Perhaps it has gone missing in the country up top.

István
Guest
Orban, Fidesz, the Jobbik, and racism are the winners because there is no simple solution to absorbing the mass of refugees flocking to Europe. Absorbing them into existing economic structures will not be simple because the very nature of employment has changed in Europe and Hungary, and in the USA for that matter. German jobs are as likely to be offshored to Hungary as they are to China or Vietnam. Many are simply disappearing due to robotic manufacturing. The social welfare structures of Northern Europe can’t cope with the potential refugees entering. Winter will likely slow down the refugee crisis, but it will not stop for a good long period of time. Borders will have to be hardened along the lines Orban has advocated for, European nation states will have to become more Island like. This is unfortunately how Orban is a winner, for that matter a Donald Trump becomes a winner too because he will eventually use the European refugee crisis to creat more support for his own racist agenda. Europe’s future is the US border with Mexico where the U.S. Border Patrol has extra-Constitutional powers over everything within 100 miles of the border. Roughly two-thirds of the United… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

I lived in the New York metropolitan area for over 35 years, always less than 100 miles from the ocean. I was never stopped by the Border Patrol and I never met anyone who was. However, anytime we returned from a ski trip from Quebec, when the passport control guy asked me where I lived, after hearing my answer with my accent, he always did some additional checking, instead of just waving me through like he did with the others.

Also, on a business trip to France, on a country road, in the middle of nowhere I was stopped by the gendarmes and the trunk of my rental car was examined at length, including my suitcase. No explanation…

Webber
Guest
“Europe’s future is the US border with Mexico where the U.S. Border Patrol has extra-Constitutional powers over everything within 100 miles of the border….” WAY over your head, Istvan! Inaccurate, and incorrect, now about the U.S.! “Extra-constitutional powers” – total b.s. I suggest you look into “immigrant friendly cities,” in the US and what that means (some are near the border, you know – some not: New York is one). I suggest you look a little more into how individual states’ policies differ toward migrants (try California, Oregon, and Arizona for three that differ a lot). I now have the strongest impression that not only do you not live in or anywhere near the West – but that you have never even visited a Western state. Worse, that you are actually unaware of states rights when it comes to migrants. Do visit the West Coast, if you can. Not only is it beautiful, but the locals’ ideas of liberty and their rights, and therefor what their states allow immigration authorities to do, differ enormously from what you have imagined. Indeed, how do you imagine that 11 m. illegal immigrants can even survive – without the implicit assistance of the native… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Istvan – if Europe wanted to copy US policy, there would be no discussion whatsoever about what’s going on now. It wouldn’t be a problem. It would be completely normal for Europe. I don’t think Europe wants to copy US policy – what’s normal for American citizens wouldn’t be acceptable to Europeans. Even when I was a child many decades ago on the W. coast it was completely normal that Mexican immigrants should do certain jobs, especially agricultural ones. They always had. They were just part of the scene. We got the words lasso, and rodeo, and corral from them. We all spoke a little Spanish (I spoke it very well, as a child). Westerners’ speech is sprinkled with Spanish words. They come naturally to us. There is a scene in a very good film (can’t recall the title) with Johnny Depp where one character speaks to a Mexican band in English, and they respond in Spanish, and they understand each other. That was fiction imitating life – it happens as a matter of course. Moreover, Mexicans are native to the N. American continent (literally native: quite a lot of them are, or look, pure Indian). You, Istvan (judging from… Read more »
Nádas
Guest

Although this is way OT, Webb, that figure of 11 million illegal immigrants you mentioned is just a conservative guesstimate. There is no way of knowing, but the likely number is between 15 and 20 million. And then there are the many millions of children born in the U.S. to those illegals – crowding schools, gangs and jails – who automatically receive citizenship at birth, and most of whom will require cradle-to-grave publicly-financed health care. When a patient (or their insurer) is charged $16 for a single aspirin tablet, much of that goes to recouping the cost of care for the indigent and the illegals, who tend to use the Emergency Room as their primary care, according to a report some time ago in the NY Times.

The number of foreign-born legal U.S. residents (naturalized citizens and permanent residents, i.e., “green card” holders) is actually about 20% of the total population, or over 60 million, if I’m not mistaken.

Webber
Guest

Good points, Nádas – with one error. Namely:
Immigrants and the children of immigrants are less likely to use social services or welfare than old Americans. They are also less likely to committ crimes, other than crossing the border illegally of course (that was a surprise to me – but the stats are out there: I can find them and post them if you like).
It makes sense, if you think about it. They came to work and want to succeed.

Nádas
Guest
You’re off the mark, I’m afraid. The impact on social services by illegal immigrants from just one country, Mexico, in just one state, California, for example, is enormous. These services, as I mentioned above, include schooling for a huge and ever-growing number of children (roughly twice the number per family as average Americans) about 40% of whom will drop out; health care (illegals are of course uninsured but are neither required nor able to repay the ruinously high cost of emergency care); law enforcement and incarceration (over 40% of prisoners in California are “Latino,” meaning Mexican or Mexican/American, for the most part); in addition to the considerable impact of traffic accidents caused by uninsured “undocumented” motorists (usually driving unregistered vehicles without a driver’s license). Gang activity by “Norteños” and “Sureños” (whose mainstays are drug manufacturing and trafficking, with murder as a sideline) is growing exponentially, as they have a virtually never-ending supply of new recruits to draw from, many of whom are just as disaffected by life in the Anglo world as some Muslims are in Christian Europe. Furthermore, not only is crossing the border without documents a crime, but so are: being in the U.S. without legal authorization or… Read more »
Webber
Guest

You are wrong. You are mistaking a local phenomenon for a widespread one. Crime levels among immigrants are lower than the national average.
Story here – with hard numbers for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/
Study here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2012.659200?journalCode=rjqy20

Native-born criminal gangs in your area (so. Cal.) listed here – plenty of them are not Mexican:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_criminal_gangs_in_Los_Angeles

gdfxx
Guest

Statistics are not relevant. If a person is in the US illegally, that person broke the law already. If that person commits a crime while in the US, s/he added to the existing crime. Had s/he stayed home, that crime would not exits in the US. It is as simple as that.

Webber
Guest

gdfxx – what you are saying is ridiculous.
Crossing the border illegally is not a crime in the sense of murder, rape, theft, etc. and Americans recognize that clearly.
Statistics are very relevant. Immigrants commit less crime.
They also don’t use more welfare than native Americans (another myth).
Here are more of the myths about immigrants in America unraveled, if you care to look:
http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/02/01/10-myths-conservative-media-will-use-against-im/192494

Donald is Trumpeting all these myths – the funny thing is that his own wife is an immigrant.

gdfxx
Guest

I did not say that crossing the border illegally is a crime. What I said was that if an illegal alien commits a crime, that crime could have been avoided if that illegal alien wasn’t in the US. The same applies to welfare, an illegal alien who is not in the US does not need US government support of any kind. Statistics are irrelevant. One illegal alien on welfare is using other US legal residents’s tax money. Same with schooling.

Webber
Guest

gdfxx on
September 14, 2015 at 1:14 pm
you wrote “One illegal alien on welfare is using other US legal residents’s tax money. Same with schooling.”

Aha. And one illegal alien paying taxes (yes it happens) is actually supporting US legal residents’ greater use of welfare. Quite a lot of them actually pay quite a lot in taxes.
I quote:
“the Immigration Policy Center, …. estimates that households headed by illegal immigrants paid a combined $11.2 billion in state and local taxes during 2010.
Based on estimates compiled by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), the Immigration Policy Center reported that the $11.2 billion in taxes paid by illegal immigrants in 2010 included $8.4 billion in sales taxes, $1.6 billion in property taxes and $1.2 billion in state personal income taxes.”

Further information here:
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/Illegal-Immigrants-Pay-Taxes-Too.htm
and here:
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-illegal-immigrants-pay-taxes-2012-3

gdfxx
Guest

How the hell do they pay taxes if they have no Social Security numbers? Or if they do, it’s a stolen one.

gdfxx
Guest

business insider.com? give me a break. “CEO and Editor-In-Chief Henry Blodget is a Yale graduate who previously worked on Wall Street until he agreed to a permanent ban from the securities industry and payment of a $2 million fine and disgorgement of $2 million.”

gdfxx
Guest

The other source is based on data from the Immigration Policy Center, far from being an objective source of information on immigration.

Reality Check
Guest

In my state I do not need a SS number to pay sales or property tax.

Nádas
Guest

Southern California is not my area, but I have spent time in region and keep up on events there, and I stand by all of my statements. The “phenomenon” of Mexican gang activity is no longer just local, either. It has spread out across the nation with the meth trade.

A friend in rural eastern Washington state just wrote that they had hired an Hispanic guy to do some tree trimming, and were convinced (by his tattoos; perfectly reasonable if you know what you’re looking at) that he is a Norteño banger.

But in California Mexican gangs and the Mexican Mafia make up the dominant form of organized criminal activity, and it has grown out of the enormous population of illegal immigrants.

Webber
Guest

Look, nobody denies that Mexican gangs are nasty, insidious, and in the US.
Rather like the Italian Mafia.
You are overstating their importance. In California in some areas the Mexican gangs have little if any hold. Go to Oakland, for instance. Look around. Plenty of criminal activity. Not many Mexicans.
Hells Angels up and down the West Coast run a lot of the show.
Mexican gangs are awful, are present, are dangerous, and all the rest. So are other gangs.
I was talking about over all crime statistics – immigrants of all groups are less likely to commit crimes.
Incidentally, your story about a friend who employed a Mexican with tatoos is funny, you know…
If he is a gang member, why is he working for a gringo at a low paid job, at an hourly rate? I guess Nortenos don’t have much power in E. Washington state (that’s Hells Angels territory, btw).
Also, it means that your friend is employing illegal immigrants, and knows it, and apparently has no problem with that.
Very funny to be “concerned” about immigration, and simultaneously employ illegal immigrants!

Nádas
Guest

You’ve jumped to several conclusions here.

Not all gangbangers are illegal aliens, quite the contrary. And working straight jobs is not all that uncommon. It gives one a good reason to be in a given area.

The Hells Angels are boy scouts compared to Nuestra Familia.

You really are unfamiliar with the problem.

thomas Whiting
Guest

Nadas, I fear you listen to Fox News far too much.

Nádas
Guest

See my comment above. I apologize for the length.

István
Guest

There are random road check points in Southern California operated by the Border Patrol see this fact sheet by the ACLU https://www.aclu.org/constitution-100-mile-border-zone Those of us who are fortunate enough to be white more often than not never get stopped, except here in Chicago on occasion there are raids by US Imigigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) on undocumented Polish workers but normally it is foucsed on Hispanics. Here is a video of a Chicago protest over some of these raids which are ongoing.

Webber
Guest

Sure – the Feds violate individual rights, state law, and the constitution (as your link confirms). Any westerner will tell you that! The Federal govt. isn’t terribly popular out West, you know! Everyone knows the stories – Randy Weaver is a folk hero in many places. Tell people in certain parts of the West that you work for the Feds, and watch what happens – they are not going to help with whatever it is. Immigration authorities are among the least loved.
This poster (below) is very popular among certain people out there who traditionally mistrust big govt.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Homeland-Security-Fight-Terror-Poster-Geronimo-Apache-/261693752503

gdfxx
Guest

“Worse, that you are actually unaware of states rights when it comes to migrants.”

Immigration to the US is federally regulated. Some states or cities decided not to enforce those laws, especially under the Obama administration that chose not to enforce some provisions of the law either.

Webber
Guest

Dude – state rights are violated by the Feds all the time. Takes time for these things to get to the courts. When they do, states often win. But until states win in court the feds keep pushing their damned laws.

gdfxx
Guest

Dude, federal laws trump state laws, especially when it comes to immigration, that is federally regulated by the constitution of the US.

Why don’t you go to Ferguson and tell the minorities there that the federal government has nothing to do with their oppression by the local police…

Webber
Guest

Dude…..You are wrong again.
Are you an immigrant to the States? Are you not a citizen, or not living in the US at all? You should have covered states rights in your high school civics class, if you went to school there.
A little illustration –
If Federal laws trumped state laws, how is it that marijuana can be illegal at the federal level and legal in many states? Hmm? (don’t answer – I already know).
The Federal govt. has control over certain things, such as the borders, true, and is supposed to ensure that states do not violate the Constitution.
The problem comes when the Feds violate the Constitution, which also delineates states rights. What Istvan was describing above – the 200 mile zone – is a clear violation of both state’s rights and individual constitutional rights (read the piece Istvan gave a link to – the reasoning is there).

gdfxx
Guest

Dude, marijuana is illegal and the only reason the Feds are not intervening is, that they chose to ignore it. But even in states with locally legal marijuana, businesses that are involved have to operate on a cash basis, because banks – that are federally chartered – do not allow them to open accounts.

Webber
Guest

Wrong again. Are you an immigrant? Or have you forgotten your civics 101 course?
State law trumps federal law in all cases that the Constitution does not specifically say that a certain issue is for the federal govt. to decide.
Briefly – it is illegal to transport marijuana across state borders (that violates federal law), but individual states are responsible for criminalization or legalization within their borders. That, naturally, goes for regulations on alcohol as well (in some states the state – not feds – have a monopoly on hard alcohol sales, and in one small town I know alchohol sales are banned outright, though state law allows them)
Read up:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/statesrights.html

gdfxx
Guest

I agree with Petofi, we shouldn’t burden the blog with this dispute. So, this is my last comment on this topic (although I think I didn’t bother any of you with too many comments lately,before this last series).

So, dude, take a look at the DEA’s website on penalties for marijuana trading: 1-49 plants or less than 50kg – first offense:no more than 5 years, second offense: no more than 10 years, third offense: life.

It is the law, but it is not being enforced by the government, at this time.

Webber
Guest
Gdfxx – you still don’t get it. Federal law is only applicable in certain areas delineated by the constitution. So, in the case of marijuana, the DEA penalties are for trading across state borders (not to mention national ones), or for using on Federal property (more on which below). That is a federal offense, as I noted above. Interstate commerce is one of the things the Federal govt. has powers over, in accordance to the Constitution. Within a state – it all depends on the law of the state in question. So, you have an odd situation in certain Western states where marijuana is legal: you may openly carry/use it nearly everywhere in the state EXCEPT in a National Forest or Park (quite a lot of land in Western states is Federal!), in which case you are under Federal jurisdiction, and can get into a lot of trouble. Weird, but that’s the way it is. You just made an innocent mistake, one commonly made by immigrants. Just look at the (huge) differences in legal codes between states – where marijuana offenses are most strictly punished, and where they are not punished at all (this is not new: Oregon has been… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2015/06/congress-passes-three-amendments-stop-dea-undermining-state-marijuana-laws

“A fourth bipartisan amendment prohibiting the DEA and Justice Department from undermining state marijuana laws failed, 206-222. It was offered by Representatives Tom McClintock (R-CA), Jared Polis (D-CO), Earl Blumenauer (D-OR), Don Young (R-AK), Barbara Lee (D-CA), and Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA).”

spectator
Guest

Shouldn’t border control be in place from day one of the Hungarian EU membership?

I thought, that,s why the funds coming, to ensure that the borders are safe!
There was some kind of agreement too regarding the matter too – am I mistaken?

According to my best knowledge Hungary supposed to patrol the borders properly, and ensure that nobody without proper permits should enter into EU territory!

Not even from Vojvodina, for that matter.
What happened?

Are Orbanistan ignored the duty of a borderland up till today?
How comes?

Guest

Right. If he’s a ‘winner’ I’d have to say he’s a pyrrhic one alright. And he arguably appears to be the most vociferous ‘Oedipus’ of the lot. His vision well for me is only down to the point of his nose. I ask a little more from ‘statesmen’. And I believe others do too.

Guest

Right. If he’s a ‘winner’ I’d have to say he’s a pyrrhic one alright. And he arguably appears to be the most vociferous ‘Oedipus’ of the lot. His vision well for me is only down to the point of his nose. I ask a little more from ‘statesmen’.

Webber
Guest

Here’s another image of the Mexican-American border fence, with an explanation:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348406/Video-captures-2-women-climbing-US-Mexico-border-fence-18-seconds.html

Guest

By their impression the refugees don’t consider Hungary an EU country. Interesting article on their view of Europe and their future place in it. http://nol.hu/belfold/a-menekultek-szerint-magyarorszag-meg-nem-nem-europai-unio-1562991

Tyrker
Guest

“The mustache bore a suspicious resemblance to” a picture by a Slovakian cartoonist.
In other words, Magyar Narancs committed plagiarism .
Shame on them.

https://www.facebook.com/humorkamensky/photos/a.390878934331468.93491.351823091570386/879265158826174/?type=1&permPage=1

trixi
Guest

Only if they knew about it. It could be that they thought of the same joke. It’s actually a pretty logical idea connection the fence with the image of The Dictator. Even you posted it today and not last week, I’m not sure Slovakian cartoons are widely read in Hungary.

spectator
Guest

But you’re sure, that this image has nothing to do with it?
comment image

Otherwise to come the same solution quite independently of each other isn’t that hard.
Sometime if you reduce a visual message to its key components, you’ll end up more or less with similar solutions.
Not much to do about it, really.

In the case of the above illustrated shithead the solution more than appropriate, whoever came up with the idea.

We are eighty years older than this, come on!

István
Guest

The BBC is currently airing a story, in fact I just watched it, that Austria is deploying troops to help deal with a migrant influx, and will tighten controls on its border with Hungary. As part of the story the BBC website has this statement from Austrian Vice-Chancellor Reinhold Mitterlehner: “If Germany carries out border controls, Austria must put strengthened border controls in place, We are doing that now.”

Apparently Austria did not need to pass any additional laws to deploy some of its military for border enforcement purposes.

Webber
Guest

Schengen can be temporarily unilaterally suspended by any govt. without extra legislation for all sorts of reasons. Austria has done it for intl. football matches to exclude known football hooligans, for example.

István
Guest

Poland’s prime minister Ewa Kopacz has confirmed her government’s opposition to the imposition of binding EU quotas for the resettlement of refugees. There are links to her statement in Polish on the Internet. The Guardian is also carrying a story that the EU is considering a radical new plans for the internment of “irregular migrants”, the creation of large new refugee camps in Italy and Greece and longer-term aims for the funding and building of refugee camps outside of the EU to try to stop the people coming to Europe. The Guardian also obtained a draft document that indicated the EU was for the present not going to enforce any new system of quotas for refugees among EU states. If this is true it is unfortunately a massive victory for the position PM Orban has taken.

Webber
Guest

Frankly, quotas benefit only Germany. If asked – for whatever reason – the vast majority of refugees want to go to Germany. They, too, are opposed to quotas. Just imagine – you are a refugee sitting in some fairly decent center in Germany (say Munich), and you are accepted with the words “Congratulations! You have been recognized as a refugee! We’re thrilled to let you know that you are being resettled in Iasi!” Like it or not…

Guest
Yes it is. It’s evident that Poland, Hungary and other countries in ‘Eastern Europe’ are taking a hard line with regard to all the emigration going on. I can understand it from a cultural point of view but I’ve always had it in the back of my mind that they and the rest of Europe perhaps are still in a wistful state of having images of a pre-1914 Europe floating around in their heads. It was a state where everything looked to where it should be. It’s better if they are disabused of the notion if they think they have it. Unfortunately the dream never survived as Europe went through great destruction. I’d suggest those Muslims and refugees appear to be setting a stage for more of the same if thinking doesn’t coalesce on the problem these ‘unequals’ lay at the door of European societies. Hungary for sure can keep thinking the way they want against them but it really shows that those views would seem to mitigate against the country to succeed in getting to grips with all that ‘inequality’ leveled against them and staring them in their face. Germany is interesting though after coming out of her past.… Read more »
Bowen
Guest

I would be very surprised if Poland (or the Czech and Slovak Republics, or Romania) were having “wistful” fantasies of pre-1914 Europe.

Guest

Well on that I’d suggest why not? Compared to now it would look like a ‘Candidian’ atmosphere of life lived. Eastern Europe simply isn’t geared for change. Maybe for lightbulbs but that’s it.

Sure there were problems but not to this extent. I do not think the pressures back then were such of a magnitude in that society as we see today. But in fact with the far right in various countries getting real nervous and in an uproar Europe looks to be going down a road we’ve seen earlier. I’d suggest there’s plenty of kindling around. Pretty soon we may see lots of Smokey the Bears running around with pails of water. The movement of people’s today is a real game-changer for the continent. Change will be difficult.

Webber
Guest

Istvan (and others) – an Austrian court has declared Hungary “not safe” for refugees, just as a German court decided the same earlier. So, in the decision of those courts, refugees may not be sent back to Hungary.
This just shows what mistake it is to consider Austrian or German govt. actions equivalent to Hungarian ones. Orban’s people keep doing that, and keep being disappointed to discover how they differ.
So, tell me now, in what way has Orban been vindicated?
News here:
Egy osztrák bíróság nem küld vissza Magyarországra egy menekültet
Egy osztrák bíróság döntött egy menekült afgán nő és gyermekei ügyében. A határozat szerint egyiküket sem lehet visszaküldeni Magyarországra. A bíróság szerint ugyanis Magyarországon jelenleg nem biztonságosak a feltételek a menekültek számára. Fennáll a veszély, hogy Magyarországon nem tartják be az európai emberjogi egyezményt, és a menekültnek embertelen és megalázó bánásmódban lehet részük. A nő 2014-ben Magyarországon adott be menedékjogi kérelmet, de továbbutazott Ausztriába. A Dublin III. rendelet alapján a menedékjogi kérelmeket abban az uniós országban kell elbírálni, ahol azt először benyújtották. A bíróság szóvivője hangsúlyozta: egyedi esetről van szó, de ez az ítélet más bíróságok számára is irányadó lehet. Korábban írtunk arról, hogy hasonló ítéleteket hoztak német bíróságok is. (Die Presse)

Istvan
Guest
Webber if Poland, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia continue to maintain their stance in opposition along with Hungary to all EU refugee quotas. It is a significant victory for Orban. I am confused about the position of Romania so I did not include them. There is no way the EU can force four countries to accept an EU decision on quotas, it would lead to a split in the EU. Orban was the first and for a while the only EU national leader publicly opposing any type of quota, now the infection has spread due to his work. Really and it is very sad to say this PM Orban understood the underlying dynamics of this refugee issue much better than has Angela Merkel. I also think Merkel is faced a revolt of the base inside her own party the CDU and not just with the Christian Social Union (CSU) over her government’s pronouncements accepting 800,000 refugees. I am even more amazed there were discussions by German officials of taking 1 million refugees today. Orban politically fanned those fires inside of Christian democracy. None of this is good for the EU or NATO I suspect, Putin is trying to use the… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

“I am confused about the position of Romania so I did not include them.”

The Romanian president, Klaus Iohannis has expressed his opposition to mandatory quotas and to linking distribution of structural funds to them.

Deakista
Guest

As if anybody needed clarification.
Hungary is not even safe for many of its citizens.
It has been always like this.
The current leaders are more loyal to Putin/Khamenei than to the ordinary Hungarians.
Who is too blind to see it?

Webber
Guest

Some one tell me if my facts and interpretation are wrong: 1. Austria is still accepting all refugees who cross from Hungary, and now it seems will not return these refugees to Hungary (because of the court decision that Hungary violates their rights). 2. Austria is suspending Schengen at the border with Hungary, so everyone must have a passport to cross that border (unless they ask for refugee status at the border, naturally)
So, refugees are crossing and are accepted. Hungarians (and others) however now must have passports to cross the border.
Who, precisely then, is the hard border set up against? Who is the target, really?

Bitstream Fractalized
Guest

ID card does it as well… no big issue, everyone carries his ID card with him.

Webber
Guest

“no big issue”…
I beg to differ. It is a bloody big issue. It means again waiting at the border while they look at everyone’s documents, instead of just driving through as if the border weren’t there. Yes it will be bearable, but it will be less pleasant. And it is directed, clearly, against Hungary.

Jürgen
Guest

There is nothing clear about that. The Germans are not closing their borders to Austria against the Austrians either. They might not be thinking very well of the Hungarian government these days, but their immediate need is to control the influx. Hungarians will just stand in line for a little and show their ID and pass through. The immigrants on the other hand will realize that the Austrians are keeping them in Hungary and they will get frustrated and try to break through just as they did before on the Hungarian-Serbian border. I can only hope that this time we won’t see pictures like the ones taken on the Hungarian side, but if there will the press can start vilifying the Austrian police as well.

Csaba
Guest

OT a friend decided to leave the preschool-kindergarten they loved after the beloved ovónéni (preschool teacher) started posting on facebook about the too small number of refugees perishing on the journey to Europe. Also they said that half of the half dozen shortlisted babysitters were well-meaning, nice (working class, rural) girls who turned out to be ardent Jobbik supporters and refugee haters. Pretty scary.

tappanch
Guest

The main entrance of refugees/migrants from Serbia at the rails at Röszke is closed by Hungarian police around 4:30 PM, September 14.

tappanch
Guest

comment image

tappanch
Guest

Police counted 200,000 since January 1 (half of them in the last month), so between 300,000 and 400,000 must have passed through Hungary to reach Germany and Scandinavia.

Member

Here is a live feed from Roszke by Balazs Nagy Navarro. It’s all quiet now. The military brought armored vehicles with machine guns on top and there were some police on horseback, apparently for crowd control.

http://ustre.am/1rdeY

Bowen
Guest

The economist today suggests that Germany’s closing of its border is “is at least in part also a tactical manoeuvre to press the rest of the EU to accept a quota system for asylum seekers.”

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21664583-move-taken-reduce-flow-migrants-undermines-europes-free-movement-policies-germany?fsrc=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Fgermanyimposesbordercontrols

Slightly OT: There are a lot of ‘katonai rendészet’ convoys going up and down Budapest today …

spectator
Guest

According to Mr.Chekhov, if there is a gun on the scene, it must be fired till the end of the play.
I sincerely hope that even Anton Pavlovitch can have it wrong sometimes…
comment image

Jon Van Til
Guest

If the Serbian border can actually be closed, and Austria will actually accept those now in transit, Orban will have pulled off an epic instant ethnic cleansing of his country…

http://budapestbeacon.com/public-policy/hungary-buses-refugees-en-masse-from-roszke-to-austrian-border/27305

tappanch
Guest
Istvan
Guest

Kim Lane Scheppele’s essay was a brilliant summary of the issues leading up to today’s EU Council of Ministers meeting. But given what has happened today Professor Scheppele’s statement: “As a state of emergency looms in Hungary, now is the time to invoke Article 7 of the Treaty of the European Union, quarantining Hungary by removing its voting rights in EU matters. It’s the least the EU can do to show solidarity — not only with refugees, but also with the EU citizens of Hungary,” seems not to be based in the reality of the EU as it currently exists. But none the less the Professor’s sentiment is correct.

Istvan
Guest

PM Orbán in a TV2 interview, this evening from the best I could understand announced that the EU Council of Ministers decided Hungary would not be required to accept refugees seeking asylum. He went on to basically discuss what the Guardian had predicted would be the outcome of the meeting this morning. (see my post above)

Even NÉPSZAVA believed PM Orban emerged the winner in all of this writng: “Orbán Viktor elérte, amit akart: Magyarország nem lett frontország , így valóban nem lesz menekülttábor”

petofi
Guest

Could Webber, gdfx, and Istvan take a few days off and allow others to get a word in edgewise..?

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