Viktor Orbán’s masterplan: Hungary will remain ethnically pure

Viktor Orbán admitted today that he has no idea what will happen at midnight at the Serb-Hungarian border, but he knows one thing: “Hungarians must make every effort for the defense of their freedom, their culture, and their customs.” Hungarians “are running for their lives” from the dangers of a foreign invasion. No time can be wasted. Every minute counts. On the territory of Hungary there will be no refugee camp, even if it is called a “hot spot.” The reference is to a European Union suggestion to set up new reception facilities for asylum seekers, like the ones that already exist in Italy and Greece. That would have meant an international team on the ground in Hungary that could have helped the overburdened Hungarians process the newcomers. Naive European politicians. They didn’t understand that Orbán doesn’t want any help because he has no intention of allowing any asylum seeker to stay for any length of time in Hungary.

In the last few days Hungary has been swept clean of refugees. There is no longer even a pretense of taking part in a joint European effort to handle the crisis. On the one hand, close to 4,000 soldiers, after a crash how-to course, have been speedily building a much more formidable fence than the earlier temporary one. And on the other, in the last few days, also with great speed, the Hungarians have been sending their unwanted refugees on to Austria. Who said that Hungarians can’t organize? They can if they want to.

Only a few hundred yards from the Austro-Hungarian border at Szentgotthárd they set up a “pseudo-camp” with about 400 beds. Busloads of unregistered refugees arrive one after the other, but the beds remain empty. The new arrivals get off the bus and walk straight into Austria. Röszk, the notorious registration center near Szeged, is now a ghost camp. And train after train leaves Budapest bound for Hegyeshalom, each with 1,700 refugees aboard. Within a few hours no refugee will be found in Hungary. The few stragglers at the border will be allowed in, only to be sent back to Serbia within a few days. Others who cross the border illegally, over the fence, will be arrested. This is the master plan.

An Viktor Orbán figure from Brussels Photo: AFP / John Thys

A Viktor Orbán figure from Brussels / Photo: AFP / John Thys

This is all very simple, but it looks to me as if Brussels still doesn’t quite understand what’s going on in Budapest. They don’t seem to grasp Viktor Orbán’s goals. Why didn’t he take advantage of assistance from Brussels? Why did he turn down the offer to relieve Hungary of 54,000 asylum seekers when over the past two years Hungary has processed more than 200,000, although practically all of them have since left the country? The reason for his refusal is that in accepting the offer, Hungary would tacitly have admitted responsibility for some of the refugees that traversed the country. And the Hungarian position, although not publicly admitted, is that not one refugee will ever be welcome in the country, whether coming from Serbia or shipped back from the west. The same applies to the offer of setting up “hot spots” along the border. It’s time for EU politicians and officials to recognize that, for all practical purposes, as far as the current refugee crisis is concerned, Hungary is no longer a member of the European Union.

It does seem that patience in Brussels is waning fast. Yesterday Luxembourg’s foreign minister, Jean Asselborn, told Der Spiegel that they will stick to their plans “with or without Hungary.” One must keep in mind that Luxembourg holds the presidency of the European Union and it will be Asselborn who will chair the next meeting of the EU foreign ministers. It looks as if it has been pretty well decided that if Hungary refuses to take advantage of the EU offer of lightening Hungary’s load by 54,000 refugees, the EU will divvy up the offer between Greece and Italy, perhaps even Germany and Sweden. This sounds very resolute and unusually firm given the usually weak responses coming from Brussels, but the fact is that it is no threat to Viktor Orbán, who figures that after a lot of legal wrangling no one will be able to send any refugees back to Hungary. Thus his country will escape the onslaught of people of alien culture and religion. Hungary will remain Hungarian.

If it gets to this point, I believe that, however reluctant the European Commission and Parliament might be, they must respond forcefully. The Austrian chancellor already mentioned the possibility of decreasing  financial payments to the former Soviet bloc countries, among whom Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia are the least cooperative. If they don’t, Viktor Orbán might just be the one who manages to topple the already rickety structure of a badly designed association of nation states. Viktor Orbán must be stopped for the sake of Europe.

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András B. Göllner
Guest

It remains to be seen whether EU leaders will have the courage and conviction to stay true to their principles. The coming few weeks will be a real litmus test. Earlier this summer the European Parliament had also put in a request to the Commission to take a stand on Hungary’s rule of law violations. September-October, one way or another, promises tol be a game-changer for the Orbán government as well as for Europe.

Guest

From the piece by Prof Scheppele: ‘The Hungarian government’s disregard for the rights of refugees presages its disregard for the rights of its own citizens’

It is apparent VO’s actions has started a throwing down of gauntlets. So some ‘Common Sense’ on these heady times of Orban courtesy of Tom Paine. Some ideas never get old and they’re incisive because they come out of hard experience.

‘Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections; the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher’.

We’ve apparently seen the choice Hungary has made. A new society awaits in the dystopian wings.

Paul
Guest

I suspect he’s about to win yet again – at least in the eyes of the Hungarian electorate, and that’s all that matters.

The flow of refugees will do what any flow does – if its easiest route is blocked, it will seek another easy route and take that. After all, they don’t have to look far to find another unguarded/fenced border and another route to Germany.

Also, the season for crossing the Mediterranean is about to end, so the ‘supply’ of refugees will start to dry up anyway (until next spring/summer) .

But, whichever way, and almost whatever happens, Orbán will have succeeded in his two main aims: to cleanse Hungary of refugees, and to use this crisis to his own advantage. He entered into this as a faltering politician, whose sure touch seemed to have left him, leading a party whose popularity was rapidly declining. But he has come out of it as the strong man of Europe, the man who rescued Hungary from the threat of Muslim invasion and who stood up firmly against the EU and showed them how to do it.

If you doubt this, just ask any Fidesz supporter.

István
Guest

Paul sadly I totally agree with you.

Member

I believe the EU should let Hungary go. Although it sounds that I speak against the interest of my fellow Hungarians but it os far from the truth. I believe the best interest of Hungary would be left o their own, in their own little box, just like Albania. Only then will Hungarians will learn how is life with Orban. As Orban already started to build the fence, Austria, and the other countries could finish the job. Visa requirements should be required. Hungarians could apply for refugees status or could stay under humanitarian grounds in countries they currently are… you get the just of it. Only under those circumstances will Hungarians wake up and decide that voting for Orban is like backtracking in history. 3 years until the next election, and if the EU would act, when a new PM steps in, Hungary’s membership should be reconsidered.

Member

If Brussels cannot even deal with one little nazi dictator, the felcsuti viktor, how could they deal with millions of refugees? Whatever the EU gets, deserves it.

Deakista
Guest

Ordinary Hungarians can save the EU spirit by overthrowing the Putin loyalist regime in Budapest.

Brave 56-ers, is anybody afraid of the noise of the revolution?

Wondercat
Guest

The camp a few hundred metres from the border is not in Körmend, but instead Szentgotthard.

George
Guest
What is needed, is something to shake Hungarians out of their apathy. At the last election, 26% of the voting population voted in this govn. with a 2/3 majority. Whose fault – the core voters who did not vote. Apathy or despair is not an excuse. My fear is that it maybe too late, Orban has demonised the refugees and played the “evil” Islam card. This has the effect of creating the us and them and dehumanises an identifiable group. After this, it is easy to pass any legislation, do what you will with “them”. Even those who might have voted against Orban will quietly breathe a sigh of relief and quietly vote for him whilst espousing another view to comfort themselves. We (the crowd) are easily manipulated especially with the current media control. Quite frankly, the only thing that might bring people to their senses would be an ultimatum from the EU – play according to the social rules of Europe or get out! Before that point, the middle class, who Orban has tried to cultivate will just leave en masse. For the first time, after living here for 13 years, I really despair of what is happening and… Read more »
István
Guest

George writes in part: “This stain will haunt the country for a generation and will do irrevocable harm. It will impoverish the country as investment is very sensitive to this type of PR, and impoverish the people by allowing these views to go unchallenged.” I don’t agree in any way that it will impact investments in Hungary, many Germans, Poles, and others cheered on Orban and not just the outright facists either.

The direct foreign investment in Hungary is based on the ability of investors to make money on their investments. A good example of the irrelevance of racism when it comes to investments is Vietnam. Here is a nation that systematically expelled many Chinese Vietnamize people in the 1970s and is still to this day highly hostile to ethnically Chinese Vietnamize people. Really no one cares when it comes to investments, even the Chinese have investments in Vietnam.

Guest

I totally agree with George, however:

Before giving judgement on Orbán’s refugee policy I’ll wait how Germany etc handle this wave of refugees/immigrants – I think it’s still too early …
On the other hand it’s become obvious that no politician in Europe trusts Orbán and Fidesz any more so we’ll have to see what happens when the next decisions will be made that involve Hungary – the Hungarian government might get some nasty surprises, especially regarding monetarian help …

If the flow of money going to Budapest is reduced by just a part of that money needed for the refugees, then what will Orbán do? Cancel all infrastructure projects?
And German industrialists and investors have also followed Hungary’s policies – unpredictable and ridiculous as never before, no good foundation for investments!

George
Guest

Yes, Germany et al will modify their approach eventually, but not so far as to paint themselves in the way Orban has done to Hungary. They will still be OK and Hungary will become the scapegoat for all this. Just watch Slovakia and Poland and Czech suddenly move their chairs away from the outcast, quietly rubbing their hands together. No love lost with Slovakia that’s for sure.
And I agree with Wolfie, you bet this subject is on the table in the board rooms of Audi and Mercedes etc.
I don’t think Hungarians realise quite how deep they are in this particular swamp.
As I said, so very sad, I like this country and its people, so much to offer, just no good leaders post Matyas!

Tyrker
Guest

Merkels Untergang, with English – well, Hunglish – subtitles:

bimbi
Guest

Just a small aside on the refugee situation in Hungary and Europe. As Hungary’s actions featured more and more on the BBC news headlines in recent days, suddenly the relays of BBC news broadcasts on Klasszik Radio in Budapest have disappeared.

The long arm of the Media Authority or a quick telephone call from higher up?

Control, control, control.

Frogman
Guest

Media control works, it always did, always will. Only the methods change. Orban knows it, Putin knows it, the Hungarian Left had no clue so now they are toast.

Member
On Becoming One’s Own Enemy “Frogman”: “Media control works, it always did, always will. Only the methods change. Orban knows it, Putin knows it, the Hungarian Left had no clue so now they are toast.” This kind of patent and poisonous nonsense keeps being repeated in various forms daily among commentators of all stripes, from dedicated democrats to turul trolls. From democrats it’s a form of unrefelective defeatism. From the turul triumphalists it’s the intellectual equivalent of “nyaa-nyaa.” I am addressing only the bonafide democrats here (not their troll imitators like the latest “frog” in the pond, sowing diversions and disinformation): Are you thinking straight? I understand your frustration in the so far uninterrupted wins using Orban’s shameful, shameless methods — Fidesz control of the media, destruction of checks and balances, corruption of the tax office and the economy, violation of human rights, institutionalized deception and propaganda, demagogic appeal to the worst in human and Hungarian nature, and endless, ever-changing lies and laws to square the psychopathic circle. Of course the democratic opposition is losing against criminal methods like these (decriminalized only by the regime’s freedom to draft daily make-a-laws that make everything they do literally legal, proactively or retroactively).… Read more »
Readme
Guest

Average voters of Budapest arguing the cons and pros of paying by cash.

http://martonbede.tumblr.com/post/129095474729/mit-keresek-%C3%A9n-egy%C3%A1ltal%C3%A1n-ennek-a-street-food

Paul
Guest

The only serious measures the EU can take against Hungary are financial ones, and it cannot afford to do that. Firstly, it cannot be seen to be causing distress to the population of one of its member states for ‘political ends’ (and anyway, why should all pay for the sins of a few – isn’t that collective punishment?). And secondly, it daren’t risk pushing Orbán into the arms (in both senses) of Putin.

Orbán wins this round, and once again demonstrates what a superb tactical politician he is (those who think he isn’t have forgotten how he got where he is). Of course, we can comfort ourselves by assuming, that although he wins each battle, he will ultimately lose the war. But just how many battles does he have to win before that sounds like the hollow rhetoric it really is?

Paul
Guest
A little OT, but I’d like to say to Wolfi, as our ‘honorary’ German, how much I admire the German stance on these refugees and the German people’s reaction. As an child of the immediate post-war UK, I grew up with a pretty ambivalent attitude towards Germany. Until at least the 70s, the Germans were still seen at worst as mostly Nazis and not to be trusted, or at best a nation with a heavy burden of guilt. Boys comics were full of stereotyped Germans shouting “sieg heil!” and saying things like “for you, Tommy, ze war is over”. And attacking the Germans was still the everyday stuff of jokes and TV comedies (e.g. the famous ‘don’t mention the war’ episode of the otherwise excellent Faulty Towers). Even today, cracks about the Germans invading Poland are still seen as acceptable, even on Radio 4 comedy programmes (listen to The Unbelievable Truth for instance, especially when Henning Vehn is on the panel). Even now, we utterly ignore the fact that the USSR also invaded Poland. I was lucky that my father had friends in Germany from his National Service days and later worked over there (I even had my own lederhosen… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

“Hungarian Rhapsody”
comment image

graffiti in the Dorćol district of Belgrade

Guest

“Hungarian Rhapsody”
My compliments to the creator of this grafitti. A new Banksy on the way?

Guest

The SPIEGEL again has a scathing report from Röszke:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/roeszke-ungarn-riegelt-die-grenze-zu-serbien-ab-a-1052983.html
Gábor Gyulai from the Helsinki committee is quoted regarding a government press conference:
“Die ungarische Regierung und die Behörden sind völlig kopflos. Sie haben selbst keine Ahnung, wie es weitergehen soll. Sie wollen einfach bloß die Flüchtlinge loswerden.”
Loosely translated:

“The Hungarian government has lost its head – they have no idea what to do really. They just want to get rid of the refugees …”
And the SPIEGEL also reports that the government must have known some time ago that tens of thousands were on their way and they should have prepared for this – but they did absolutely nothing until it was too late, the people appeared at the border and they could ignore the situation no longer …

István
Guest
I am going to make a petofi like comment, and no offense intended to our friend either despite our differences. One of my closest friends here in Chicago is Polish and he is the owner of a construction firm, he visits Warsaw probably on average three times a year and I have even gone with him skiing in Poland at Białka Tatrzańska. Last night he said to me something to this effect: you remember I told you how a bunch of Irish had moved to Warsaw and even opened a pub – I said yes it amazed me. Well I have to say your Hungarian boy Orban got it right about the Arabs moving into Hungary. You know we Poles, Hungarians,Serbs, and so on fought something like 200 ‘years to get those fuckers out and now this shit. Orban was the only one with the balls to speak the truth, God bless him. I told him didn’t agree, but I asked him this – you get along just fine with all kinds of people here in Chicago – you even speak Spanish with some of your workers. So how come back home is so different? He said in effect to… Read more »
Member

Well, I am sure that many Americans do not want America look like Poland either. Same in Canada. Polish people taking over neighbourhoods and many them never learned to speak English. You go to a Polish butcher, you are lucky if you find one sales person who speaks English. How about the Archbishop Josef Wesolowski, who was on trial in the Vatican on charges of paedophile crime? Does he know anything about the Chicago Robin Hoods? At any case Poles are everywhere, in every country. They should stay in Poland! Well, how does he like them apples?

Guest

I guess your friend doesn’t like Guinness…;-)…

Surprised in one way that he’d have an attitude like that to the Irish but I can understand it. I’d think he may be confusing the Irish with the English and the rest of the West’s ‘colonialista’ that saw easy pickings in Eastern Europe in terms of eco advantages a while back in those ‘free-wheeling’ days after the Wall fell down. Another reason for Poland to keep it for the Polish.

Crazy thing is in Hungary’s case which has the same attitudes you’d think VO would hold off ripping everybody off after the bad West did their job. But it looks to be same old same old. Nothing like getting sandbagged by your own countryman.

And I just heard the refugees camped by the border have gone on a hunger strike. Interesting things will be happening soon. Speaking of ‘control’……

tappanch
Guest

The first rejected asylum applicants came from BanglaDesh. They got the verdict after a 4-hour mock trial. There was an Urdu interpreter.

Quite a few Pakistanis do speak Urdu, but BanglaDesh seceded 44 years ago, so I doubt an Urdu interpreter was of any help. The verdict was given and written in Hungarian only.

http://444.hu/2015/09/15/megvannak-az-elso-elutasitott-menekultek/

Member

You forgot to include thatt they But they can appeal in Szeged (inside Hungary). Justice in Hungarian style, or the Hungarian catch 22.

tappanch
Guest

1.
Here is a new road permitted by the new Orbanesque legislation.

Turkey —-> (ship) Ukraine —-> Hungary [or Slovakia].

2.
I suppose asylum seekers can appeal by registered mail from Serbia.

tappanch
Guest

Here is one of the first verdicts.

1.
It is signed not by a judge, but a

“director of refugee affairs”.

2.
There is NO right to appeal.

3.
Judicial review by the Szeged court is possible only if there is

argument that the law was not applied properly.

4.
In this case the asylum seeker came from Pakistan,
the translator spoke Urdu,
(let us hope that the Pakistani understood it),
but the verdict was read to him in Dari (Persian) !!

http://kettosmerce.blog.hu/2015/09/15/jelenleg_nem_jutnak_be_magyarorszagra_a_menekultek#gallery-1442322100_1

tappanch
Guest

I would recommend another path for the migrants/refugees too.

Since Croatia is still mined along the former Croatian – Serbian or Krajinian front line, see:
comment image

I would cross the Danube into Croatian Baranja.
Hungarian Baranya is still not fenced in, so I would head NW to Pecs and Austria.

gdfxx
Guest

The trial was probably a mock trial, one cannot have anything else in such a short period of time. However, I wonder what a Bangladesh resident can bring up as a reason for being a refugee. There is no Is there, there is no war there, there is no terror there, so then what?

Guest

There is poverty, and understandably people want to leave a better life. However each country has the right to select who they accept and who they refuse.

Would you say NO, countries don’t have this right?

Each country has the right to protect its borders, and designate places where people can enter.

Would you say NO, countries don’t have this right?

There is well defined process to apply for work permit and so on. It should not be the normal and tolerated way that you just walk over the border and claim for refugee status or start working, unless you want a total chaos, I think.

It is just should be organized humanly and effectively.

gdfxx
Guest

I would not say NO to any of your questions.

I would also add, that at the present time – at least that is my understanding – the international consensus among countries is that poverty is not a reason for someone to claim refugee status.

Member

“Hungary facing a slow slide into despotism,” an excellent article by Professor András B. Göllner, founder of the Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter, has appeared in the National Post:
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/andras-b-gollner-hungary-facing-a-slow-slide-into-despotism

Istvan
Guest
Guest

Thank you for providing Prof Gollner’s thoughts. On the mark. And I’d hope my country’s representatives are not sitting by by while Orban crows as well. I think they need to get in some ‘hardtalk’ chat.

After hearing of Merkel’s desperately needed’European spirit’ and as we see how Hungary is handling the crisis. I just don’t see how she will get cooperation now from Hungary, Poland, Slovakia etc on the matter. At this time it would seem European ‘unity’ on all this may be nothing more than having a fat and unmovable pink elephant in their living room.

It would appear Hungary and the other countries noted have embarked on a sort of ‘provincialism’ at odds with the more multi-cultural approach of Germany. Looks to be they’re going to be like the Irish monks on the lonely island of Skellig Michael out in the Atlantic defending to the last its Christian civilization.

The province of Roman Pannonia is long gone but a new one has just been created. Welcome to a new ‘Orbannonia’, a safe haven for the soon-to-be hermits of Europe. the portcullis has dropped..’they shall not pass’.

.

Webber
Guest

Today the Polish PM said Poland would accept refugees (she didn’t say how many) because it was the humanitarian thing to do. Even Donald Tusk had some strong words about Orban a few days ago.
Poland may not like quotas, but it is also not backing Orban.

An
Guest

This is absolutely disgusting… according to PM, an opposition party, the Hungarian authorities simply deceive the refugees by having them sign a document (in Hungarian) that they crossed the border illegally (when in fact they crossed at the legal border crossing point at Roszke before it was closed) so they are not eligible for applying for refugee status. Photo evidence is attached in the following article (in Hungarian).

http://hvg.hu/itthon/20150915_PM_atverik_a_menekulteket_egy_dokumetum_a

Istvan
Guest

An the Hungarian application might have been based on trick questions used in the US application for asylum see http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-589.pdf But at least here in the US we give the applications this statement along with the application:

WARNING: Applicants in the United States illegally are
subject to removal if their asylum or withholding claims
are not granted by an asylum officer or an immigration
judge. Any information provided in completing this
application may be used as a basis for the institution of, or
as evidence in, removal proceedings, even if the application
is later withdrawn.

Also there is a formal hearing over the removal and the alien gets to have a lawyer.

An
Guest

I don’t know what trick questions you are referring to, but I do hope that the US government doesn’t trick refugees into signing a document in a language they don’t understand stating that they crossed the border illegally when they in fact crossed legally at a legal cross-point and the authorities are aware of that.
That’s a very low level of low.

And of course, having a lawyer provide some safeguard against rouge authorities who may try to employ deceptive tactics.

Member

Actually, here in Canada, the IRB also uses deceptive tactics and tricks with their refugees too. I had sponsored refugees and quite often, they would send paperwork back to us stating that we either left out information or didn’t submit what they needed. We would go through everything and not find any of the discrepancies they claimed, make a call to them, and they would tell us they didn’t know what we were talking about. We then would resend the paperwork, and it would be accepted just in the nick of time. We realized that these were delay tactics meant for the refugees seeking protection to miss their deadline. Which is grounds for rejection as their refugee claim would be considered voluntarily withdrawn. This is what I believed happened to many many Roma who the government claimed abandoned their refugee claims.

Istvan
Guest

Questions 17 and 18, if you answer those incorrectly indicating you enter the USA technically illegally and have not gone to the immigration service informing them of that you are in the United States illegally then you can be denied asylum because you broke the law. Its what is called a catch-22, referring to a type of unsolvable logic puzzle sometimes called a double bind. Apparently US immigration lawyers know how to approach the questions which are beyond my comprehension.

tappanch
Guest

Representatives of the party PM found another violation of the rights of the asylum seekers.

In the asylum application container, the Hungarian authorities make them sign a paper in Hungarian that they reached the border on foot, “illegally”. Having admitted guilt, they will not be entitled to fair process.
comment image

http://hvg.hu/itthon/20150915_PM_atverik_a_menekulteket_egy_dokumetum_a

Istvan
Guest

I have not been able to get a clear understanding of this, but based on confusing media reports here in the USA I am understanding that the Hungarian government has informed the Romanian Foreign Ministry about plans to extend the great Hungarian fence’s current route to a few kilometres beyond the Maros (Mures) river along the Romanian frontier. Is there more information being given on this within Hungary?

An
Guest

If you read Hungarian, here is an article from HVG
http://hvg.hu/vilag/20150915_Orbanek_uj_keritesterve_nem_tetszik_a_rom

Istvan
Guest

“észszerű távolság” I wonder what the Romanians consider to be a reasonable distance for the great fence of Hungary?

gdfxx
Guest

I think the reasonable distance refers to the fact that Hungary, Serbia and Romania have a common border point. It is reasonable to believe that if the Border between Serbia and Hungary is closed, the migrants just go to that common point and go around it to Hungary. The question is, how long that fence between Hungary and Romania needs to be to discourage the migrants to go around it? If they go to Romania, and they desire to get to Germany or Sweden, their only way to the West is through Hungary, unless they go to Ukraine and continue from there through Slovakia or Poland…

Webber
Guest
Guest

Some of the refugees and asylum seekers feel that they find a better asylum in Sweden or other Scandinavian countries.

http://index.hu/kulfold/2015/09/15/a_menekultek_tobbszor_meghuztak_a_veszfeket_egy_berlinbe_tarto_vonaton_es_leszalltak/

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/auf-dem-weg-von-muenchen-nach-berlin-fluechtlinge-ziehen-notbremse-im-sonderzug-und-steigen-aus/12321412.html

Can we really call them real refugees or asylum seekers? Interestingly the majority don’t even want to stay in Austria. Are they really seeking asylum or just seeking the best possible place to live in the EU where the highest welfare support they can get? I am a bit confused here…

Webber
Guest

“Can we really call them real refugees or asylum seekers?….”
You asked that question before, as I recall.
Short answer – being a refugee doesn’t mean giving up the right to choose one would like to live. It simply means being unable to return to one’s home.
States refugees choose might reject them.

Your comment about choosing a state with good welfare seems somewhat prejudiced, though there are bad apples in all groups, so some surely have thought about that.

Others might be thinking “Where are they hiring these days? And where are wages okay? Where might I live really well off my wages?” Germany comes to mind as a good place to work for a lot of Hungarians leaving Hungary. It seems natural that others would think the same way.

Member

Actually, I think it is less about where they can get the highest welfare support unlike how the right wing loonies want you to beleive. I think it has very much to do with living in a country where they will not be discriminated against and treated as unwanted. Most immigrants and refugees want to work, but will people give them a chance? With the rate of racism increasing all over the world, I don’t blame them. As you can see that even Fidesz is leaning on the edge of Nazi ideology. If you take a look at the commentary on every article regarding the refugee crisis from any country in the world, people are expressing more and more racism.

Reality Check
Guest

Many are trying to go where they have friends, relatives, or there is already an established immigrant community from their country.

This is exactly what my Hungarian mother and grandparents did when they came to the US. They picked a state and an area within the state where there was a large Hungarian community.

Guest

Yes it make sense, but in this case the you implicitly agree with Orban i.e. The quota system doesn’t work. I don’t think that you can find many Syrians and Afghans in Eger. ( a small city in the northern part of Hungary). I don’t think that an asylum seeker has the right the decide where to stay. Actually this is what Merkel said too. If you are an asylum seeker you say a big Thank you if you are accepted in any country where they provide food, shelter and welfare, instead of being choosy.

dylan
Guest

that’s not a reason for treating all those people as animals as you are doing,fascists fucks

Guest

I agree with you dylan. There is no excuse for the behavior of the Hungarian Government. They purposely made the conditions as bad as possible. It is just shame for all of us Hungarians. Sorry for this, my only excuse I never ever voted for them. At the same time I protect my integrity and freedom to think, ask questions, and doubt anything.

Member

Is it being “choosy” to say that you would like to live in an area where there is a successful job rate for immigrants and refugees opposed to living somewhere you are not accepted or wanted and treated so? At least if a person is accepted and working, they are contributing back to the economy that spent money on them. But racists don’t want that, they would love to see the person sit on welfare for years just to prove their point that refugees are only welfare shoppers.

Guest

It’s a good remark. But if we accept that Merkel’s quota proposal does not make much sense either, since everyone decides on his own where she wants to stay. This is what you find totally reasonable?

Member

In fact, when I immigrated to Canada, I was only allowed to go somewhere where someone would be my guarantor. When you are a refugee claimant you need a guarantor. It was a Jewish organization who did, but I know many Hungarians who were guaranteed by friends and family. On the other hand if the government takes you on right away as a refugee, the government will become your guarantor.

Guest

You probably also remember how long it took to accept you to Canada. For me it took at least a year, and they want to know everything but everything really means everything before deciding whether they accept you. All your documents, certificates, diplomas, work references, bank account etc. You need to hire a special law firm submitting all your paper on your behalf. Then comes and interview etc. So I am just smiling when someone says anyone has the right to live and work wherever he wants to. Come on.

Webber
Guest

Yes – it takes a LONG time for the U.S. to accept refugees too. Two years of waiting and submitting additional stuff after the initial application is submitted is standard, I understand. It is by no means easy.

Member

If Hungary has come off as an accepting country and used the opportunity to mine skilled people, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I think many would have wanted to stay in Hungary, they however, knew well in advance that Hungary was not going to accept them. This is how the whole trouble started. I don’t think the refugees wanting to go to Germany and Sweden was because they wanted the highest benefits, I believe it is more about the fact that Germany and Sweden has said they want them and they see opportunity to get along well there.

Guest

Not long ago I interviewed someone how studied in Denmark. She said that many of the first generation asylum seekers after 10-15 years still don’t speak any Danish (she were there for 4 years and learned Danish) and they more or less happy with the gov. subsidies they receive. Many of them don’t work because what they receive is more or less enough for them. This is not my opinion I am just quoting someone who got her degree from Denmark and during those years she financed herself with all kind of jobs she could find without any financial support from home. So there are many types of asylum seekers and just because someone running for his life we don’t need to assume automatically that they are all angels from Heaven. They are like us.

Guest

“They are like us.”
And that’s why you and the other Fiddik don’t want them in Europe?

Guest

us i.e. like you and me 🙂

Guest

I am not against them actually coming here as long as it is done in an organized and controlled way. At the same time I see the huge responsibility of the Hun. Gov. why they cannot enter and move to their next destination this way. Instead of spending money on stupid billboards there should be thousands of administrators next to the border to judge their request and handle it in a record time. Work together in strong cooperation Serbia-Austria-Romania-Hungary-Germany and decide together the best way to protect the external borders of the EU. What happens now clearly shows to me that the leaders of these countries don’t get along too well. They just cannot communicate effectively. Bad for Europe bad for us and bad for the refugees.

Guest

Btw. I agree with your view. The Hun. Gov. tragically mishandled this crisis and probably this is due to O.V’s sick personality that did not allow better cooperation with our neighbors and Germany. He is an arrogant @shl and probably nobody likes dealing with him. There are many refugees with good credentials, experience and jobs. This year we lost close to 1000 medical professionals who left the country for goods. It would have been a golden opportunity to try to replace them with qualified refugees. Too bad.

Bowen
Guest

AP are reporting that an Associated Press journalist was forced to delete footage he had filmed of a police dog knocking over a refugee at the Hungary/Serbia border.

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/09/15/ap-hungary-police-forced-journalist-to-delete-footage

spectator
Guest

If they didn’t took the card too, there is away to retrieve deleted data, search for it!

Guest

@ Webber “the right to choose one would like to live.” OK. I understand but let’s say for some reason one want to live in California. Because California comes to his mind as a good place to work and live. He is a Hungarian passport holder can he just move in and live there? Does he has the same right? If not why not?

Webber
Guest

G. Nagy. Look at Reality Check’s answer, above. It is perfect for your question.
A Hungarian who moves to the US – if he does so legally – certainly can move to California. He can do it if he is there illegally, too, come to think of it…

Guest

If it is so easy why those millions who live illegally in the US just register themselves and say: I want to live here legally, because I like it here because it is a good place to work and live. Why are there so many illegal workers if it is so simple? If everyone has the right to live where they want to?

Webber
Guest
G. Nagy – I find your question very strange. Living in a place, and being legalized are two very different things. But maybe you don’t know a thing or two about conditions within the States, such as: 1. Nobody has a personal i.d. card (same goes for the UK). 2. Nobody has to register their domicile with any authority (lakcim bejelentes – nincs) – with the exception of convicted criminals, of course. Drivers licenses serve as sort of I.D. cards, but unless one is driving a car, one is not required to carry any sort of I.D. at all. The police cannot punish you for not having I.D. Drivers licenses are issued by states, not by the Federal govt. Most states issue drivers licenses to people regardless of citizenship – no need to prove citizenship of the US. All one has to do is provide an address. The DMV of the particular state takes your word for it that that is your address. They don’t check it. They don’t even ask if you are a citizen (I personally saw this happen – a Hungarian citizen got a drivers license after passing the tests, naturally) In some states, illegals are given… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest
A few corrections: Drivers licenses are used for ID, but for those, who do not drive, the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicle) issues a similar card, that allows one to prove his/her ID, required in some places, for example when boarding a plane, or in some cases to vote. The DMV does some checking, for example they request that one shows a recent bank statement, a birth certificate or passport or similar document with the applicant’s name and address on it. For example here is what the Oregon DMV requires to issue a drivers license (in addition to the tests): Be a resident of or domiciled in Oregon; Be at least 18 years of age (click here if under 18); Have no suspended, canceled, revoked, or otherwise withdrawn driving privileges in Oregon or any other state; Submit a completed Driver License Application (Form 735-173). If you answer “yes” to any of the medical questions on the application as outlined in OAR 735-062-0007 (2)(a)(b)(c), DMV will not issue you driving privileges until you have established that your condition does not affect your ability to drive safely. DMV may ask you to provide additional medical information and/or require that you pass additional… Read more »
Webber
Guest
gdfxx In-state tuition for illegals unpopular??? You’ll have to tell Oregonians that. The law was passed by referendum. The majority of Oregon’s electorate voted for it. Illegals unable to rent because of credit checks, etc.??? Well, you’ll have to inform 11 m. illegals that they aren’t able to rent. You’ll have to inform millions of property owners about that too. Illegals are renting places and getting along just fine. “The in state tuition only applies to STATE colleges and universities, those are subsidized by the taxpayer.” Of course! That goes without saying. Those are, in general, the largest schools. They also are generally very good. I’ll say it again: I, personally, saw a Hungarian citizen get a drivers license. The list of requirements, in practice, is very easy to fulfill. Clean driving record – they have to prove you don’t have one. As in most cases in the US, they take your word for it. You say this and that is the case, and they accept it without proof. “Drivers licenses are used for ID” – yep, only you can live perfectly well without them, if you don’t have a car. (as I said above) If you don’t want to… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

I am not sure why you keep asking whether I am an immigrant or not. What’s the relevance?

You are wrong again. Oregon driver’s license to illegal aliens was passed by the legislation, and then overturned by 66% of the voters (Proposition 88).

The list of requirements is clear, I copied and pasted it from the Oregon DMV’s website. The fact that you saw ONE Hungarian getting the license differently does not negate the requirements.

Try to get on an airplane without an ID. Or get a bank account without one.

You keep getting things wrong, but you still keep using this patronizing tone, maybe it’s time to stop it.

Webber
Guest

I am right on tuition fees!
And I am right on drivers licenses (a different issue).
Proposition 88 was on drivers licenses, not tuition fees.
And I maintain that non-citizen residents can get drivers licenses in Oregon (and many other states) – just read, carefully, the regs you yourself posted.

As to the relevancy of your personal status – it is relevant to this discussion. If you were a native American, I would have been disgusted. That you are an immigrant means that you cannot reasonably be expected to understand the intricacies of states rights and the Constitution.

Webber
Guest

P.S. to that: if, as you initially claimed, States rights were trumped by Federal law, Proposition 88 never could have reached the ballot in Oregon. And States rights were where we started all this.

gdfxx
Guest

From the article you quoted:
“Obtaining one of the cards would have required proof of at least one year’s residency in Oregon and the showing of a valid unexpired passport or consular identification.”
“Measure opponents said issuing driver cards to those who can’t prove legal residency in the U.S. would undermine the rule of law.”

Also useful to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ballot_Measure_88_(2014). It states: “Oregon Ballot Measure 88 was a ballot measure in the U.S. state of Oregon in the 2014 midterm elections to determine whether or not to refer a “law creating a four-year driver’s card, shorter than the usual eight years for a driver’s license, for those who meet all other qualifications other than proof of legal presence in the United States”.[1] The measure was rejected.”

The instate tuition for illegal aliens was adopted by the Oregon legislators, not by the people’s vote, as a proposition. The same legislation, that adopted the drivers licenses for illegal aliens, that was overturned by the voters.

You continue with your patronizing tone. Why do you think an immigrant cannot figure out what the laws, the traditions etc. of his/her adopted country are?

Webber
Guest

P.S. You are also mixing up something else. The right to make choices doesn’t mean that those choices will be necessarily be fulfilled.
IF a refugee says he/she doesn’t want to stay in Hungary, AND the Hungarian govt. says it doesn’t want many refugees in Hungary – WHY should the refugee be made to stay in Hungary?
Explain that to the bog-average Canadian. They may politely nod their heads at whatever explanation you come up with, but I am sure that with their common sense, they will think it’s all b.s.

Guest
@ Liz Aucoin So they considered all the cons and pros and decided that by living in Austria they will be discriminated against and treated as unwanted. Hmm. Despite the warm welcome of refugees by Austrians? Despite that Austrian convoys came for them to Hungary to rescue them? To live and work in Austria is a dream for many Hungarians. Interestingly these asylum seekers does not consider Austria as an asylum. Why not? The question remains: are they really asylum seekers? To my simple mind after being able to leave a country like Syria or Afghanistan one on his right mind should consider Austria a Heaven to say the least. For some reason many of them feel that entering the EU they have the right to decide where they want to stay. I might be wrong but to me those who claim so cannot be called asylum seekers or even refugees. (Someone knocks on you door and ask you to help him otherwise he would be killed. OK. you let him in. But then he says: Thank you but I don’t like this small room you gave me, can I please stay in the same room you live? Probably that… Read more »
Webber
Guest
G. Nagy – last things first: your caviar and salmon story is a big fat lie. The refugees didn’t ask for any help to get to their desired destinations. In case you didn’t notice, they are paying smugglers, walking, taking tiny little boats, sleeping under open skies, and (until they were stopped) they were generally making their way without any help at all. I was a little surprised when the Hungarian govt. 1st stopped them from boarding trains, buses, etc. when that very Hun.. govt. says it doesn’t want them. Surprise, surprise – if they can’t travel on out of Hungary, they are stuck in the country where they don’t want to be, and where the govt. says it doesn’t want them to be. THEN the Hungarian government started busing them to the border with Austria. Before migrants were stopped, they were just going. I personally saw many of them. They have been passing through Hungary for the past six months or more on their own steam, without assistance from anybody. And so many of them want to go to Germany. What business is it of ours? Of yours? That’s the business of the German govt. and taxpayer, isn’t it?… Read more »
Guest

Read this to figure out yourself why Orban claims that he is protecting Europe and don’t hesitate to ask if it is still not clear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

Guest

@Nagy:
I didn’t want to comment on your rantings – you should be ignored as a troll or even banned from this site, but …

Your last comment shows that you are either a Fidesz troll or a very idiotic “Tiszta Magyar” – or possibly both!

The Hungarian government knew that those people were coming, doesn’t matter whether you call them migrants or refugees, and they kept them on purpose in inhuman conditions (there are psychopaths which get high on that …) instead of letting them pass through Hungary.
Remember how people with valid tickets were not allowed to board trains taking them to their relatives?
That’s a typical sadistic behaviour!
Now compare that, as Mr Milliband did, with the Austrians almost 60 years ago who accepted 200 000 Hungarians in a short time – without being forewarned.
Fidesz’s slogan is “Hungary for Hungarians!” so let’s turn this around:
Hungarians to Hungary!
You know there are probably more than half a million Hungarians working in Western Europe?
Send them all back to the glorious fatherland – then there’d be room for all those “economical migrants”

Guest

“When Two Men in Business Always Agree, One of Them Is Unnecessary” Let me express my opinion and sorry if it hurts you personally. You are actually wrong I am neither of the options you so nicely allocated for me. I am afraid your world probably is a bit small if you can only consider that people that don’t share your view on this issue “either a Fidesz troll or a very idiotic “Tiszta Magyar” ” You really made me laugh.

Member

My father sought asylum in Austria in 1956, once all of the processing was done he was given an option as to where he wanted to live, Canada, the USA or Switzerland. He was not however, given the option of Austria, he was told that this was because Austria was at its capacity. He CHOSE Canada. Once processed, these refugees may not CHOOSE to stay in Germany, they too may be given a limited option, nevertheless, a CHOICE.

tappanch
Guest

In the future, the buses from the Macedonian border town of Preševo will transport migrants to Šid near the Croatian border instead of Horgoš or Subotica at the Hungarian border.

This means that Orban calculated well, the migrants/refugees take the easier but longer route to reach their destination in Germany and Scandinavia.

http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/590939/NOVA-RUTA-Na-izbeglickim-autobusima-iz-Preseva-umesto-Madjarska-sada-pise-Hrvatska

tappanch
Guest

Possible Hungarian propaganda or information map on facebook:

Do not cross Hungary . Open route towards Croatia !

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