The origins of the refugee crisis according to Viktor Orbán. Part I

Until today only the Magyar Távirati Iroda’s summary of Viktor Orbán’s speech at Kötcse was available, and MTI’s reporting on such events is not always reliable. But today atlatszo.hu published the complete text.

First, I guess I ought to say a few words about Kötcse. Every year the Fidesz leadership makes a pilgrimage to Kötcse, a village about 10 km south of Lake Balaton, for a picnic. Besides the actual picnic there are political speeches, capped with one given by the prime minister himself. Orbán’s speeches at Kötcse are at least as important as his yearly addresses in Tusnádfrürdő/Băile Tușnad. The difference is that the speeches he makes in Kötcse are not advertised and are normally not published, whereas the speeches at Tusnádfürdő are broadcast far and wide and are translated into English in record time.

Perhaps the most significant Orbán speech at Kötcse was delivered in September 2009. It foreshadowed Viktor Orbán’s long-term plans for remaking Hungary. In it he also stated in no uncertain terms that he was planning a political system that would be in place for a couple of decades. He painted a picture of the future in which there would be none of those endless and useless political debates. I wrote about this Kötcse speech three times. First, when I read the MTI summary of it and was already alarmed and twice in February 2010 when Viktor Orbán allowed its publication in a pro-Fidesz literary magazine.

Viktor Orbán arrives in Kötcse, September 5, 2015 / MTI / Photo György Varga

Viktor Orbán arrives in Kötcse, September 5, 2015 / MTI  Photo György Varga

In these speeches Orbán almost always tries to explain that his audience is in an extraordinarily privileged position: they are getting a glimpse into the inner workings of his mind and are allowed access to his most private thoughts. Moreover, here among friends and comrades, he is able to express himself freely. Here he can talk about matters “about which it is not advisable to speak in public.” Indeed, Orbán is correct. Enlightened people are not xenophobic and don’t advocate racial purity.

Of course, even in this speech Orbán remains careful not to sound either xenophobic or racist. He chooses his words carefully. But the overall impression is still that of a highly prejudiced man. He wouldn’t go as far as the fundamentalists who talk about “a crusade” against Islam. He, as “a moderate man,” would speak only about the problem of the “Islamization of Europe.”

Orbán sees himself as the standard-bearer of this defensive war: “this is what Europe demands of us, Hungarians.” Not just from Hungarians in general “but from the elected officials of this country.” Although he and his fellow politicians have faced many challenges and conquered them, he believes that this current crisis is the greatest demand he has had to face to date. Because as a result of this crisis  and his response to it a new era will begin: “The Christian-national idea and mentality will regain its dominance not just in Hungary but in the whole of Europe.”

One often has the feeling that Viktor Orbán doesn’t have a grasp of Hungarian intellectual and political history and doesn’t realize what the “Christian-national idea,” fashionable in right-wing circles during the interwar period, meant. Otherwise, he wouldn’t appeal to it constantly. The “Christian-national idea” was born in the early twenties and had more to do with anti-Semitism than with Christianity.

Viktor Orbán, it seems, wants to spread the gospel of the “Christian-national idea and mentality” across the European Union. He wants to be in the forefront of European politics, someone who can reshape the face of Europe just as he did that of Hungary.

Orbán’s explanation for this mass migration is telling. It is not, he claims, the wars and terrorism in the Middle East and Africa that made masses of people run for safety, first to the neighboring countries of Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon and then farther west, given the hopelessness of their lot there. According to him, the origin of this mass movement lies in globalization. “For years we have told them that ‘the world is a global village’ … we have talked about universal human rights to which everybody is entitled. We forced our ideology on them: freedom is the most important thing, we said. We bombed the hell out of those who didn’t accept our ideology…. We created the internet, we declared the freedom of information, and we told them that every human being should have access to it. We sent them our soap operas. They watch what we do…. We sent our TV stars into their homes…. they now think that our virtual space is also their space and that in this virtual space everybody can meet anybody else. … These people, partly because of our culture lent to them or forced upon them, are no longer tied to their own land and to their past.”

In Orbán’s ideal world, the people streaming into Europe should have remained ignorant of the world, they shouldn’t strive for freedom, and they shouldn’t be the beneficiaries of the kinds of human rights we are entitled to. What can one say, except to express outrage. It is shameful that this man is the leader of a European nation that is so proud of its love of freedom.

To be continued

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Deakista
Guest

Another question: The origins of Orban’s errors!

Abused child, abused teenager, abusing adult?

zebedee
Guest

How wrong you are!!! He is a footballer who was never good enough to become a professional, even in Hungary, and that rankles really bad.

DefendTheWest
Guest

Let us try to look under the surface.
There are no doubts, different agents, crime organizations in the crowd of the refugees.
Some of them can be Russian and Iranian agents.
The refugees are listening to media for guidance, often, to RT and TV Press.
The US leadership is missing in this game. The US leadership is continuing to betray the freedom seeking people of the world.
It is an assistance to the Orbans of this world.
Russia and Iran are using these opportunities to damage the West.
Who will bring sanity to our world?????

Merneptah
Guest

Another thought-provoking piece.

After following his political carrier for a long time, I think Mr Orban has long been deluding himself into thinking that he is able to understand the hidden relationships behind our complex world way better than anybody else. As if he had the expertise and insight of an omnipotent being. A demigod, at least.

And, of course, he has shown his unique talent for developing visions. As for me, in a civilized country, people harassed by visions should be cured in appropriate mental facilities.

Albrecht Neumerker
Guest

I am sorry, but you’re wright.

István
Guest
Well I don’t disagree that PM Orban is in many ways a disturbed person and that he has lit the spark that has lighted a fire across Central Europe. But the UN’s secretary general Ban Ki-moon is equally a mess, he condemned Hungary at a news conference today saying: “I was shocked to see how these refugees and migrants were treated. It’s not acceptable.” Let me just say it’s true the Hungarians treated the refugees harshly and it’s also true they are no longer attempting to cross the Hungarian border in mass. Ban Ki-moon knows something about treating starving people rough and that it gets results. Ban Ni-moon is also a hypocrite, he has been in office since 2007. UN peacekeepers in 2010 shot dead one Haitian rioter and also used massive amounts of tear gas on protestors trying to get food. Nepalese troops were responsible for the shooting and gassing in the City of Cap-Haitien, Haiti’s second city on the north coast. Dozens were left wounded from gun shots from the Nepalese UN troops. The UN said the killing and shootings were justified. The United Nations-led Mission for the Stabilization of the Central African Republic has killed numerous rioters… Read more »
zebedee
Guest

I heard that Orbán was hoping for some kind of violence, preferably a shooting, to give him an excuse to really put the boot in.

Guest

This sounds so like the official government response, to any and all criticism, as ordered by Orbán, which is to respond not by reflection or debate or any effort at solving the problem, but by indignant counteraccusations, and deflection from the issue. What is the point of deflecting the focus?

What you seem to be saying is that instances of brutality in other countries is horrible, so it would follow that you also think they are horrible here. We are not talking about other countries, where there are plenty of people protesting about injustice within their own borders. We are focusing on Hungary. What are you going to do about it?

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

Is it really worth analysing the rants of a deeply racist and sadistic xenophobe voted in by racist and ignorant zombies-
“You hate darkies, I hate darkies”, that is about the height of the Orbán philosophy.

Now also the undisputed champion of every neo-nazi nutjob in Europe.
21st century Hungary will get the future it deserves with this monster as its leader.

Guest

“21st century Hungary will get the future it deserves”

They-get-what-they-deserve has been said by many commenters on HS. I disagree. Nobody deserves what befalls them because of their ignorance.

Likewise, many have said that it is up to the Hungarians to extricate themselves from the mess. I also disagree on that one. The EU could have easily and legally nipped the Orban dictatorship in the bud. The Hungarians do not deserve the neglect.

csészealj
Guest

By the way G. Fodor Gabor’s (the manically loyal fidesznik politologist) new internet medium 888.hu just launched which obviously targets 444.hu — which is one of the very few independent media.

On Facebook where most kids gets their news from obviously the articles, links will be confusing but that’s the goal, to neutralize 444.hu. Whoever will get 888.hu will get a loyally fidesznik reading of the events. The fidesznik all-encompassing media portfolio is growing and will not stop. How do these amateur leftists think they can even have minimal access to voters without any media?? They gave it up, they flushed themselves down the toilet for good. Bye-Bye.

Webber
Guest

Does 444.hu still exist? (yes)
Can young people tell the difference between 888 and 444? (if Hungary’s education system is as good as Fidesz claims, I suppose they can)
Are you happy your tax money is being used in this futile way?
What is your point?

Médium
Guest
Over half of the traffic of 444.hu and other sites which cater to a younger audience comes from smartphones. And most of this traffic comes through links shared via Facebook. This new site will cause confusion for sure. Try imagine reading these articles (links) on a BKV bus ride in the evening. For every media segment there’s a different strategy as there should be. Fidesz doesn’t want to kill off 444.hu (there is no dictatorship after all, there’s robust media freedom in Hungary even the CSU acknowledges this), it wants to confuse readers who 20-30-50% of the times – depending on how much 888.hu will pay for facebook for sharing its news – will mix up the sites. On many instances this will not be an issue because 888.hu has a lot of inane celebrity gossip, people actually like that, so they will be happy to have stumbled upon 888.hu. But when it will be about politics or current events many 444.hu readers will be exposed to hard core fidesznik propaganda, often simply lies, propaganda to which perhaps otherwise they wouldn’t be exposed. And this is all that matters. The left-wing cannot get access to right-wing readers, but the right-wing… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Do you really think people who read 444 won’t notice the difference in the news?
Have you looked where 4 is on your smartphone or keyboard, and where 8 is?
I doubt anybody will be confused for even a second.

Tyrker
Guest

Methinks 666.hu would have been a more fitting domain name for Habony and co.

Guest

A bit OT:
Come on, you can have lots of fun when you search for “the mark of the beast” – just look here for some nice pictures:
http://www.av1611.org/666/rock_666.html
“Rock music for years has propagated the number 666 — the Mark of the Beast.”
Even Johnny Cash seems to those “Christian” lunatics a devil worshipper ..

spectator
Guest

At least it would inspire Semjén for a new(er) thesis..!
Pretty soon we’ll running out of the “devils” anyway, only pure blooded Aryan angels allowed to remain within the fences, you know.

Albrecht Neumerker
Guest

I agree with you, but I don’t understand where you see any leftists.

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

His point is that he is a Fidesz/Jobbik troll.

“”The Hungarians do not deserve the neglect.”
Who voted for Orbán? Three times?

Civilised Europe should punish Orbán but never forget that he is only a mirror of the deepest and unpleasant bigotry which is now patently obviously exists in too many (quite possibly a majority of Hungarians.

An evil mirror, a manipulative mirror, but a mirror nevertheless.

tappanch
Guest

The only unchangeable aspect of the Fidesz philosophy: n-e-p-o-t-i-s-m,

The head of the National Bank started to purchase real estate from public funds.
His relative and friends manage the portfolio.

http://444.hu/2015/09/18/rokonait-es-bizalmasait-rakta-matolcsy-az-uj-72-milliardos-ingatlankezelobe/

tappanch
Guest

Hungarian authorities are reluctant to investigate a possible enterprise for human trafficking in Budapest ——> Turkey —-> connection to Erdogan’s party.

http://atlatszo.hu/2015/09/17/nagyuzemi-menekultcsempeszet-hatosagi-szemhunyassal-ezek-az-erintett-budapesti-szallok/

tappanch
Guest

Veritable policy of a chameleon:

County Csongrad: loud expulsions from Hungary

County Baranya: silent busing to Austria

http://444.hu/2015/09/18/buszoztatjak-a-magyarorszagra-erkezo-bevandorlokat/

spectator
Guest

I wonder when, if ever the EU will stop Orbán from acting in the name in the whole Union, as if it was part of some agreement, or he was entitled/authorised to do so?

Or the whole Europe would accept to be made accessory in the barbarism going on in Hungary, because Orbán “defending the christian Europe”?

Shouldn’t he be obliged to “respect our culture” if he want to stay among Europeans?

Otherwise Orbán’s ”culture” – I am Hungarian, but it wasn’t ever mine, for sure – is a foolproof method to push the young refugees over to radicalism: if this is the Christian behaviour, then they definitely deserve no mercy..!

Nobody ever considered that the Orbanist inhuman treatment fuelling the hatred against everybody who could be even remotely associated with being white, christian and Hungarian?

This shameful excuse for a Hungarian, but most of all, as Human must be stopped, before the damage will be really irreversible!

I hope it isn’t too late already.

Albrecht Neumerker
Guest

A very strong argument, in did.

István
Guest
Croatia’s PM Zoran Milanovic said today: “We will not and cannot keep them (refugees) in Croatia and no one will make us do that.” Sounds familiar to Hungarian ears. But yesterday CNN reported “Croatia’s open-door policy stands in sharp contrast to neighboring Hungary, where authorities have used tear gas and water cannons to push back migrants and refugees.” What a difference 24 hours can make and thousands of refugees running around refusing to register or be placed in detention. The truth is both Orban and German PM Merkel share some of the responsibility for this nightmare. Germany has taken up to now nowhere near 800,000 new refugees, they have created no mass centers for processing the refugees for asylum, and they authorized or organized no direct trains from Hungary to Germany for refugees. The German’s provided Orban with every excuse he needed to change laws and close the borders. All we hear in the media from the Germans is the call for an eventual European solution, but no immediate relief because their borders remain sealed to the refugees. Al Jazeera today asks the question “Germany: 800,000 refugees – and then what?” But we haven’t gotten any where near that number… Read more »
Tyrker
Guest

It is indeed amazing how, in a couple of days, Croatians have gotten from bragging about their preparedness, professionalism and organised-ness to whining about how they cannot possibly put up, or even register, all these migrants. Everybody in Hungary said they would eventually get to this point, but most commenters thought it would take them weeks or perhaps months to do so. The fact that they collapsed within two days is unbelievable.

Webber
Guest

Istvan – read the statement I posted below from the Croatian PM in which he clarifies what he means and what his government is doing and will do.
You’ll find a HUGE difference between his policies and Orban’s.
Don’t for a minute believe Orban’s propaganda machine – which is saying 24 hours a day that all Europe will follow his lead. So far, no other country has. Fideszniks are disappointed fresh and fresh every day

Istvan
Guest

It is impossible to believe the kind words of the Croatian PM because he is forcibly pushing refugees by bus and train back into Hungary. I doubt many of these refugees wanted to be sent to Hungary after what had happened at the border with Serbia. Those actions are completely consistent with the policy of not allowing the refugees to stay in Croatia.

I doubt these refugees even knew they were being sent to Hungary, possibly they thought the next stop was Germany for all we know.

There is no other logic to it, I doubt that Zoran Milanović believes the Hungarian police and TEK will treat the refugees kindly, so effectively PM Milanović is putting them in jeopardy by sending them across to Hungary. Webber, neither Hungary, Croatia, nor Serbia, or the Slovaks want the refugees on their territory. Hungary adopted a formal policy on this issue and the other Central European states have not. But there are no good guys on this issue really and Orban is without question the leading bad guy right now.

Istvan
Guest

Slovenian police pepper sprayed about 500 migrants at one bridge on the border with Croatia today, Associated Press reported. Yesterday they used dogs on the refugees.

Webber
Guest
Istvan – get serious. You wrote: “Croatian PM … is forcibly pushing refugees by bus and train back into Hungary.” Those refugees were not in Hungary. They came from Serbia. They WANTED to pass through Hungary to get to Austria. They do not want to stay in Croatia. If you were a refugee and got a free bus ride for part of your route to Austria, would you reject it? Answer seriously. So, 1. They are not going “back into Hungary” because they had never yet been there. 2. Look at a map, please – one with roads, and a topographical one, and think about the following- incidentally some of this is stuff every Hungarian school child learns in 4th grade: Does Croatia border Austria? (no) How can one get to Austria from Croatia (Hungary and Slovenia) What is the topography of the borders and route between Croatia and Slovenia and Austria? (mountainous – with increasingly high mountains toward Austria) What is the topography of the borders and route between Croatia and Hungary and Austria (gentle hills, in some places flat). Are there good roads from Hungary to Croatia (there are) Are there good roads from Western Hungary to Austria… Read more »
Ndy
Guest
EDITORIAL XI Mass MIGRATION Consider: In the Middle Ages you would have complete armies to take over power over entire regions by inundating with their soldiers armed to the hilt to occupy areas administered by other powers. So it was for example in the Middle Ages and when it came to religious dominance, wars between Christians and the Muslims. Now think this scenario – masses of Muslims come with a clean conscience to live in the so-called majority christian Europe, looking for a better life. Now look into the future: 2nd generation, third generation offspring. And the ups and downs of future economies. Now look at France today. 2nd and 3rd generation disenfranchised Muslim young people in a country full of unemployment. The armaments today need not be brought by the warriors themselves. They can be easily obtained locally and later, even a generation or so later of course. always lighter, cheaper, easier to obtain and causing wider huge massive damage and casualties. What is the likelihood of today’s refugee masses turning into next generation potential wild Jihadists ? Evan a small fraction could by then do ENORMOUS damage, to Business, economy, human welfare, lives. The more we open our… Read more »
spectator
Guest

“And the longer our civilisation exists the more potential jihadists WILL pop up.”

Then Hungary is safe and sound, there is no reason exist to the jihadists!

Otherwise if you may think that Orbán represents any kind of civilisation, I recommend to you to reconsider…
Such filth as the “Orbanian culture” better be wiped out, the sooner the better!

Albrecht Neumerker
Guest

Thank you, you are a true trojan horse.

El barrio
Guest

Gabor Török the popular political advisor has a long interview in Magyar Narancs.

His view is that he never thought anybody could be that impotent, but now he sees he was wrong: the Hungarian left wing is really that impotent and empty. The left-wing totally disappeared during a fundamental, existential crisis and has not uttered a word during this crisis. Voters slowly draw conclusion from that, ie the total lack of leadership quality. The left-wing is finished.

Török has an interesting tidbit to share: he says that Orban and his advisors (I guess Lazar, Habony etc.) were sure that Orban is now a very important factor in European politics so much so that if there was a direct election of an EU preseident Orban and his supporters are sure Orban would win it (I guess because he could unify the extreme right wing and right wing votes, and the left-liberal side is in a minority in Europe anyway).

Albrecht Neumerker
Guest

There is something in it.

spectator
Guest

“…if there was a direct election of an EU preseident Orban…. would win it..”

It is quite obvious that Gábor Török clearly disregarding the still sane and initially enlightened members of the EU in his analyse.

While I am positive that deep down this is Orbán’s ultimate goal, it won’t happen anytime soon.
And you know, why?
The still sober part of the Union isn’t really enthusiast about the possibility that a former mediocre soccer player and a former KGB resident will shape the future of the continent at their will.

Don’t harbour any illusions about it, this is the way how it intended to be.
The deal is on and sealed.

I wonder, by the way, what the seals would think about it…!
Pun intended ! (It is for the Fidesz/Jobbik supporters and the otherwise challenged individuals, because I’m in generous mood at the moment.)

Webber
Guest

With that interview, Gábor Török just proved how little he knows about EU politics and Western Europeans – he is a true son of the Balkans.
He also demonstrated how much he loves Orbán.

Barrio
Guest

I’m not sure Török loves Orban. He is on his payroll and he is awestruck.

Also, he says this (ie. that Orban could win a directly elected presidency) is what Orban and his advisors think, as I remember Török didn’t imply that he was included in this group which thinks so.

On the other hand I would certainly not overestimate the progressiveness or sophistication of Europeans.

They may not want a thoroughly corrupt Russian puppet (although the extreme left and right wing and the anti EU forces in Europe are often rather pro-Russian), but I can imagine that a prularity would want someone with a proved record of being merciless with blacks and Arabs. In a first past the post system with 30% a candidate could easily win if there are many candidates. If elections were held now in France Marine Le Pen would easily beat Hollande or Sarkozy.

Webber
Guest

Claiming that Orban is some sort of pan-European spokesperson is the latest idiocy from Fidesz – for domestic consumption only. It would evoke guffaws anywhere outside Hungary.

Incidentally – why are some Hungarians sucking it up? They also read, day after day, that the European press is attacking Hungary.
So, remind me – where is Hungary considered a “model?”
Which state in Europe has great – or even just “good” – relations with Hungary?
Why would you imagine that Orban is considered a European spokesperson? It’s just stupid.

Guest
Re: ‘For years we have told them that the ‘world is a global village’ Hmm… Certainly not very original I’d say from the man who is making a ‘new’ sort of politics within the Hungarian nation. Seneca back in his day commented on why everybody seemed to run as quick as all hell to his Rome noting that it was a powerful magnet to take in all the sundry ideas in the heads of those ‘barbarians’ who sought a new life there. The ideas then are the no doubt the same now which is reframing prior existence with perhaps the unknown fate of great personal ideas. VO it would appear really is way behind the ‘swerve’ on that if you will. Probably what is the most egregious of his errors is the fact that he actually thinks he can push back probably one of the most dynamic actions humans do besides eating, breathing, procreating and dying and that is the continual natural action of movement and flight by human groups throughout the face of the earth. It has been going on through millennia. The other error is that he has people actually agreeing with him on that questionable position. Kind… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Orban’s victory at Horgos – Röszke proved to be Pyrrhic !

The Croatians completely defeated the Hungarian defenses.

THousands are coming through the Croatian – Hungarian border

at Gyékényes (close to the Slovenian border) and Beremend .

gdfxx
Guest

This whole thing is a big puzzle, with lots of pieces but there is no picture to follow. “The Croatians completely defeated the Hungarian defenses”, while themselves closed their border with Serbia, to keep the migrants out. What exactly do these countries plan to do?

In the meanwhile the US and Russian defense ministers are talking to each other on how to avoid hurting each other while fighting ISIS, the Russians on Assad’s side, the US on humanity’s side. This looks like the US now sides with Assad, a large portion of the refugees from Syria are running from Assad. The only conclusion can be that Europe (and the world) can count on much more Syrian refugees.

And God save us, when the first US plane is shot down by a Russian manned antiaircraft battery in Syria.

Webber
Guest

Croatia only closed some crossings, much of the border with Serbia is wide open. There is, in any case, no fence. Croatia is now simply letting refugees pass through the country with no registration (see the statement from the Croatian PM I posted below for explanation).
It was almost certain from the outset that refugees from Croatia would pass through Hungary to get to Austria because of geography. Toward Hungary, the hills are rather small, and there are some very flat stretches – it’s good country to walk through. Slovenia is virtually all mountains. Much harder walking that way.

An
Guest

Looks like EE countries throwing refugees around like hot potatoes (though the Croats so far seem to be more humane than Orban in their treatment of the refugees). In a way, understandable, as the numbers are huge. These countries don’t have the capacity to register them all (as they’d be required by the Dublin agreement), and not very keen on doing so either, because it may mean that the refugees are sent back to the country of registration. EE countries don’t want to end up with huge refugee camps like the ones in Turkey. Refugees don’t want to register in EE countries either as they are heading to Western Europe. It’s an impasse.

spectator
Guest

An, anybody is more humane, by definition, as long as they aren’t Orbán’s slaves!

tappanch
Guest

A column of young male migrants has reached county Zala from Somogy on foot. They are close to the Slovenian border (if they want to go that way, but probably their aim is Austria.)

The Croatians intend to bus thousands of additional migrants from the Serbian border (Tovarnik) to the Hungarian border.

Croatian premier relieves Slovenia, but takes revenge on Orban and uncouth Szijjarto.

tappanch
Guest

Szijjarto just handed over a demarche to Croatia through the ambassador in Zagreb.

tappanch
Guest

Rogan: Hungary will veto Croatia’s bid to join the Schengen agreement (as a punishment)

Webber
Guest

Let’s not forget the order in which these things happened. First, Hungary built the fence. Then Hungary started building the fence on the Romanian border, but refugees went toward Croatia. This morning I read that the Hun. govt. announced it would build the fence on the Croatian border. THEN Croatia started busing refugees straight to Hungary!
The fence effectively meant that Hungary planned to physically shut Croatia off from Schengen membership (that’s how I’d see it if I were a Croat, anyway).
I bet that the Croatian government has become even more popular in Croatia as a result of its actions.

Hungary is now in a diplomatic crisis with every one of its neighbors except Slovakia (MAYBE – relations aren’t really great there, either).

csicskalángos
Guest

Paraszka Boroka a journalist from Transylvania had a post on her facebook page. She adamantly opposes the fence between Hungary and Romania to be set up by Orban. For he stance she is called a traitor (hazaáruló) by right-wingers in both countries.

She had a point that if Romania was doing the same, that is walling Transsylvania off from Hungary (ie. erecting a new border fence symbolyzing the Trianon treaty) right-wingers would be up in arms both in Hungary and the Romanian Hungarians.

But now nobody – just as is the case with any significant political issue not even the Hungarian parliamentary “opposition” – says a word, nobody seems to care.

It’s really interesting that there are very important symbolic and practical political issues (such as the land privatization which is a corrupt scheme if ever there was one, assisted by an airtight legal scheme to prevent any undoing not that the corrupt leftists would ever want to change a thing Orban found out) and there’s no opposition at all.

I don’t get it. I mean I do, but it’s ridiculous, how can people be that lazy?

Webber
Guest

The people saying “hazaarulo” are mostly if not exclusively Hungarians from Hungary, I bet.

tappanch
Guest

only single males, no women or children

https://youtu.be/5Ob-YGOX4AE

spectator
Guest

You mean that at the front of the marching column? Aren’t they supposed to be more sturdy, trained, whatever, to get there first?

Simple experience, no fancy theories from my side, I assure you.

ROGGAN
Guest

Orban privatizes public land amounting to 380,000 hectares or roughly 760,000 acres to lock in rural cronies and obtain party finance (via EU land subsidies which the new owners will receive).

Needless to say the opposition is mute.

If this had happened during the government of the idiotic ‘szoci’s (the cluelss leftists), Orban would have massacred the corrupt government.

It’s really amazing to see this level of impotence in the entire left field. It’s really amazing.

http://index.hu/gazdasag/2015/09/18/allami_fold_privatizacio_eloterjesztes/

tappanch
Guest

378,160 hectares = 657,128.6 or almost 0.7 million hold (Joch). Nice piece of real estate to friends and family within a year.

petofi
Guest

@ROGGAN

What do you think, buddy, do some of the leading ‘szocis’ get some land as well or not?

Don’t be a simpleton…All the leading lights are in on the game.

Once and for all, try to understand: it’s not a game between political parties; it’s the parties on one side and the looted populace on the other.

tappanch
Guest

Thousands of migrants [refugees] are waiting near Edirne for the Turkish permission/order to invade [start the march into] Greece and/or Bulgaria on land.

“The Edirne governor, Dursun Ali Şahin, announced that the refugees had three days to leave before he would resort to “forcible measures”.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/17/turkey-threatens-to-oust-refugees-camped-near-greek-border

Istvan
Guest

Yes I just saw a overhead photo of what you posted about, there are indeed thousands. It is unbelievable, it seems as if the refugees have made a collective decision to overwhelm the ability of all European states to contain them prior to the onset of winter. The major highway in Turkey leading to the Greek village of Kipoi is completely filled with refugees as far as the wide angle lens of the camera can show.

Webber
Guest
For those who missed it – the PM of Croatia made an interesting statement today in which he referred to Hungary: ‘The refugee crisis is not threatening the security of Croatia, “but it creates a problem,” Croatian Prime Minister Zoran Milanovic has said. Croatia “has a heart, but must remind its neighbors and the EU that it also has a brain,” he told an extraordinary news conference on Friday. “We will not be setting up a fence like Hungary, we will not send the army, that is not the solution. We did not close the border (with Serbia), only the border crossings. We accept refugees, but our capacities are small,” Milanovic said, and added: “Regardless of the fact Croatia is a transit area (for refugees), we can no longer do it. More than 13,000 refugees have entered, some exited, but most remained. We have nowhere to accommodate them any longer. We call on the EU and those who do not want to find a solution to the refugee crisis, to realize that Croatia will not be a collection center for refugees in Europe.” “We will start implementing new methods, not like Hungary. We will implement our Plan B, we will… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Hungarians disarmed the Croatian policemen who accompanied a train full of refugees/migrants to the Magyarbóly border station.

tappanch
Guest

Police announcement hours later: the Croatian police was NOT armed.

http://police.hu/hirek-es-informaciok/legfrissebb-hireink/hatarrendeszet/kozlemeny-15

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

Something for Hungarian democrats to think about> the only people to have taken on the Fidesz/Jobbik scum and win during the whole period of the sadistic dictator’s reign have been those migrants two weeks ago who refused to sit down and accept their fate.

With a lot less resources (eg basically nothing but their pride) they got out off Keleti station and started walking. And in the end the Orbanist filth realised these people can not be stopped by the Fat Dictator’s threats and bombast.

FFS Hungarian democrats get off your knees- if refugees with basically a backpack and a bottle of water can take on the nazis and win, then what are you afraid off? Working in Camden KFC is no substitute from taking on the fascist dictatorship and winning your country’s honour back.

Reality Check
Guest

You are neglecting the multiplier effect of the world media focused on that event. When the Hungarian left does something the world ignores it and even many of those who post on this site are unaware of it (as evidenced by all the fact-free comments that the left is silent. Impotent yes, silent no).

spectator
Guest
I recommend you all – OK, mostly the right leaning sceptics – to take a long, hard and analysing look at the image above. Are you really sure, that you look at the future leader of the “Christian Europe” on that picture? I mean that corpulent guy in a white loose shirt (what is he hiding?) with both hands deep in his trouser pockets. Yes, this is the one. Do you see a statesman (btw, anywhere) on that picture? Now think about Obama, even in his shorts, or even the guy next door, Fico, or just about any leader of any country worth to mention: can you come up with similar sloppy appearance from anybody in this business? What about people with leading ambitions of a whole continent? Anybody? Can we declare that we are facing once more of a true Hungaricum, as is the PM right from the barnyards, with style and personality to match? Some months ago I have seen a videoclip about Viktor’s day at work, it could be in Brussels, but this is beside the point. Before there was time to go to one or other meeting, Szijjártó came to fetch him. The great Orbán was… Read more »
Guest

A scathing comment on Orbán – especially the last sentence:
“With his callous attitude toward these innocent lives, our prime minister has gone from bad to ugly.”
http://bbj.hu/opinion/editorial-good-bad-and-ugly-attitudes-on-refugees_104318

Member

According to Hungary’s ex=PM, Ferenc Gyurcsany, some video footage and witness accounts, it was Orban who organized events at Roszke. The police opened the gate, invited families in, then started to push them back to create panic..
Even if you not speak Hungarian watch from 3:35

An
Guest

It’s possible. The reporters of 444.hu also reported that the police opened the gate and the crowd started to walk in in good faith only to be attacked by the police, though 444.hu attributed it to a misunderstanding. So it was either an unprofessional mistake on the part of the police or it was orchestrated as Gyurcsany claims. Either way, the Orban propaganda machine used the ensuing stone throwing to show Hungarians that the crowd was violent.

tappanch
Guest

@An

On September 16, I already gave links to better quality, more revealing videos than Mr Gyurcsany showed here.

Gate was opened, happy crowd was rushing in, police beat them up.

I suspected police incompetence, lack of communication and language skills then.

What is not proven to me is that this was a deliberate act and not a professional error on the part of the police.

Member

It is not a competition tappanch, who gave better videos. I simply provided the link as it came from Gyurcsany AND because there are witnesses also testify (beside something is being filmed).

tappanch
Guest

OK

petofi
Guest

@tappanch

Whether it’s your version or Some1’s…I think the point that Gyurcsany makes is legitimate–Orban orchestrated. This may well be the act that will get other
EU ministers and reps to act in concert against Hungary…which, by the way, is exactly what Orban wants–

Member
Ferenc Gyurcsany is behaving the way a statesman and a decent human being needs to behave. I wish MSzP had the decency and character to do likewise, with one voice, and equally loudly. It might give the decent portion of the Hungarian populace a flag to rally under. It is not only false but nefarious to keep repeating, zombily, that the democratic opposition says/does nothing. I don’t know what motivation lies behind this kind of facile and mindless slander. It seems to be multiple, as it comes from Fidik trolls as often as it comes from those who pretend (or fool themselves into believing themselves) to be opposed to Fidik. Although it is not his aim, Ferenc Gyurcsany is confirming, yet again — for those with ears to hear and eyes to see, including future historians — the fact that his intentions and actions have been decent all along. Those who never tire of speaking of his corruption — corruption? who dares even utter that everyday word in light of the monstrous abominations that Orban and his cronies, in tandem with Jobbik and its savages have said and done since 2010? — those who nevertheless keep ritually intoning that slander… Read more »
Istvan
Guest
In response to the statement by Ferenc Gyurcsany not just what Stevan wrote. Gyurcsány’s claim that Orban has been planning for months a violent action against the refugees will be hard one to prove unless he has an inside source. If he does have an inside source, with the national police or military, he had better get that source out of the country or else that person will be dead. There is great confusion over whether a policeman opened the gate to let someone in and it was pushed open the rest of the way by the crowd, then they were driven out by TEK and regular police riot squad or it was a calculated act. I give Gyurcsány credit for courage in making this claim, but he needs more than the video he showed to prove his case because his claims are extensive and involve a conspiracy. There were no named individuals or references to such individuals with knowledge of the conspiracy in his presentation that I heard, maybe I missed something given my weak Hungarian. Did anyone hear Gyurcsany say he had a witness to verify a conspiracy existed? For months did Orban attempt to whip up anti-middle… Read more »
Member

Proof? Orban’s sole skill is covering his legal tracks and passing the buck, but I’d say the handwriting has been on the wall (!), conspicuously, and abundantly, since at least February, for all who have eyes to see (and the wit and the will to follow the dots). So what does one want as “proof”: a sworn statement of intention?
http://www.voanews.com/content/hungary-could-use-migrant-crisis-for-internal-crackdown/2969548.html

Member

And dictators control and direct by implication, not by direct orders, at least not until their powers are far more firmly entrenched than Orban’s are. (And this will become his undoing — and soon, let’s hope.) Notice how systematic Orban is about making himself scarce whenever shady measures are voted. But he’s beginning to drop his guard on the peacock polka of abetting yet not avowing extremism. (If I were a mole in Fidesz, or (hard to imagine) a disenchanted former true-believer, I’d be egging him on now, as he gets increasingly feisty and florid. Once he really starts acting out his sociopathic delusions, the game will be up, and he will be ousted internally by all except those who would go down with him once he implodes.)

István
Guest

Stevan it’s one thing to say follow the dots and another thing to do it. The former PM made a claim that PM Orban completely set up the violence at the border. Not just that his policies and rethoric inspired hatred among Hungarian police that could have led to violence.

The former PM took his attack on Orban to a new level which was very brave, but he needs more than he presented publicly so far. I hope he has additional evidence because it would be nice to see Orban destroyed by something like this. As was said when President Nixon was destroyed they needed the smoking gun and through hard work of real investigative journalists they got it and he was destroyed.

Member
Some Pages From the Peacock Manual I think it is obvious (and not just to me) that the former PM’s accusation is true, spot-on. There is plenty of pointed evidence to support it. But “proof” exists only in mathematics, where things are formally demonstrated to be necessarily true, on pain of contradiction. Orban has created a state where he can shape the truth, by shaping the laws and the media and the courts and (Hungarian) public opinion. I am certain he would never (thus far) say outright: “My orders are to let some of them in, then push them out, which will provoke anger and violence, which we can then use as the public justification for the drastic “emergency” measures we want to take.” But everything he has been saying and doing triangulates to exactly that, and only that, even in the sluggish brains of his mindless sycophants. No Sherlock Holmes needed to read his ‘druthers. “All we are doing is trying to faithfully follow the letter of EU law, as we always do…” Gimme a break! [In the past, he has often used this allusive cuing tactic to protect his arse by always leaving himself plenty of wiggle room… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

The post-September 15 tough laws of the Hungarian government cannot be enforced now, when there are 5000 migrants who defied them !

The Orban government seem to have reverted to the pre-September 15 practice that they want to register some of the migrants already inside Hungary.

I do not think they can prosecute thousands of people for breaching the border.

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