A bitter discovery: Hungary is now completely alone

At the beginning of his Kötcse speech Viktor Orbán pondered the significance of his political struggles over the years. At each stage, after each achievement, he thought he had reached the pinnacle of his political career. But after a while he realized that there are yet higher mountains to climb, and now he thinks that his crowning achievement will be the replacement of liberal democracy with a national-Christian system throughout the European Union. He will be the savior of a weak Europe.

He looks upon the current refugee crisis not as the personal tragedies of many thousands of people and as a daunting challenge for the European Union but as an opportunity to achieve his latest harebrained scheme of transforming Europe into an illiberal state. Something similar to what he has done to Hungary since 2010. I think we can safely predict that this ambitious plan will never materialize. Even if we disregard its inherently unacceptable goal, due to his ill-conceived attempts to save his country from the Muslim invasion his standing among EU leaders has plummeted. Practically any plan he would put forth would be dead on arrival.

Orbán’s short-term goal was to keep Hungary pristine–white and culturally uniform–by spending billions of forints on a double fence, 175 km long, to prevent all the undesirables from crossing into Hungary. The policemen guarding this barrier were reinforced by about 4,000 Hungarian soldiers, practically all the enlisted men in the tiny Hungarian army, including members of the army band. And it was still not enough. Yesterday the new minister of defense called up the 2,000 reservists. The result? Mighty little. The refugees changed their route to go through Croatia, arriving in Hungary from two different directions. First, with the assistance of the Croats they came from the south, crossing from Beli Manastir/Pélmonostor to Magyarbóly in Baranya County, and later the Croat authorities moved some of them through Zagreb to the Croatian-Hungarian border on the west through Gyékényes and Letenye, just south of Nagykanizsa. Although the Hungarians began extending the original flimsy fence another 41 km westward, unless they are ready to erect a double-fence along the entire Croatian-Hungarian border, the refugees will continue to pour in. And even if they build this enormous fence, who will guard the borders? Despite the costly efforts of the Hungarian government, nothing has fundamentally changed. Just the initial crossing point. Refugees are now arriving in Hungary from Croatia, and from Hungary, with Hungarian help, they move on to Austria.

The government’s fence-building, as predicted, was a waste of money, but that is the least of its problems. More devastating is the hit the country’s reputation has taken. Hungary is now a defiant country isolated within the European Union. The chief culprit, of course, is Viktor Orbán himself, but the fact that Péter Szijjártó, a man without any diplomatic experience or finesse, is running the show in the ministry of foreign affairs doesn’t help the situation. He talks about foreign presidents, chancellors, prime ministers, and foreign ministers the same way Fidesz politicians talk at home about opposition politicians. As if they are dirt. So now the whole world is learning about Fidesz’s style of political discourse.

Szijjártó lashed out when he learned that the French and Swedish prime ministers had criticized the Hungarian government. Here is Szijjártó’s response: “We would have liked to hear the opinions of the French and Swedish prime ministers on whether they would find it acceptable that aggressive immigrants throw rocks at Hungarian policemen.” He immediately called in the French and Swedish ambassadors. A few hours later he was after the Croatian prime minister, Zoran Milanović, who is “a liar and whose behavior is pitiful.” Soon after, he sent a démarche to Zagreb because in his opinion the Croatian minister of interior “lied” about an understanding with his Hungarian counterpart, Sándor Pintér. Yesterday Hungary threatened to block any future Croatian application to join the Schengen zone.

It looks as if Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó finds the going rough

It looks as if Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó finds the going tough

After the Hungarian government announced that it was planning to extend the infamous fence eastward along the Romanian-Hungarian border just a few kilometers beyond the Maros/Mureș river, the Romanian foreign minister expressed his misgivings about building a fence between two member states of the European Union. And that was just the beginning. Soon enough the Romanian prime minister on his Facebook page wrote that “the leaders of Hungary bring shame to the values and culture of the European Union” and compared the mentality and attitude of these leaders to those of politicians of the 30s and 40s of the last century. That really riled Szijjártó, and he retaliated by calling Ponta’s style “boorish.” The Romanian ambassador was called in and Undersecretary Levente Magyar paid him back in kind. In his opinion, Ponta is trying to restore his questionable moral authority with his anti-Hungarian lies. A few hours later Szijjártó sent a démarche to the Romanians, who refused to accept it.

The formerly friendly relations between Serbia and Hungary have also soured since the decision to build a fence between the two countries. Nebojša Stefanović, interior minister, as reported by the Serbian English-language site b92.net, said: “What we expect from the EU is to tell us what the form of good European behavior is – is it what Germany is doing, where refugees are welcomed with medicine and food – or is it the one where they are welcomed with fences, police and tear gas.” The Serbian president didn’t mince words either. Tomislav Nikolić reflected on the absurd situation Serbia is facing. Serbia, while not a member of the European Union, “respects all standards” more than those who are members and who are now “almost out of control–without receiving any criticism, advice, or order from Brussels.”

These incidents are the byproducts of the Hungarian government’s decision to handle the refugee crisis according to the ideas of Viktor Orbán. But Hungary’s relations have deteriorated not only with her eastern and southern neighbors. Earlier the Hungarian government severely criticized Angela Merkel, holding her responsible for the refugee crisis. Currently German-Hungarian relations are severely strained. The situation is even worse when it comes to Austro-Hungarian relations. Ukrainian-Hungarian relations have been bad ever since Viktor Orbán began courting Vladimir Putin, who subsequently annexed the Crimea and intervened militarily in the Ukrainian civil war. That leaves Slovakia as the only neighbor that has refrained from any criticism of Hungary. In fact, right now the two prime ministers are great friends. What binds them together is their stand against a joint EU solution to the problem. We will see how long that will last.

Yesterday Péter Szijjártó admitted that Hungary is now completely alone. Now, after Croatia abandoned her, she must solve the problem of the refugee crisis on her own. I wonder how long it will take Viktor Orbán, a man on a mission to change the political landscape of Europe, to realize that his task is hopeless.

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Member

Peter Szijjarto, who even had problem to figure out on his tax return how big his apartment is and what properties he owns, should not be “telling” ohers what to dow when it comes to communications. Whole Hungary feels sorry for the guy who has no basic understanding of taxation and mathematics, now whole Hungary has to feel sorry how he represents the country.

Member

Clear instructions were given to everyone at the Külgaz/Külügy (Foreign & Trade Ministry), that no polite and diplomatic language should be used in communications, but common, direct (Fidesz) language. The same style of language, that is in use in pig herding. Members of the Fidesz are used to it by now, that is the language the viktor was taught by his peasant parents and that is how he speaks. It is also the official language of Fidelitas, (Young Fidesz recruits) where Szijártó was educated, they all speak fluent pig herder language, some even understand it.

JGrant
Guest

Dear gzbognarjr! In my village I know several pig herders who would object to be associated with the likes of Szijjarto and his boss. They are decent, honest, uncultured but polite and kind people who are excellent examples of the common sense and industry of the Hungarian peasantry of old. Not to mention the fact that pigs are amongst the most intelligent creatures that country courtyards produce and extremely clean, given half a chance. So let’s try to find some different similes to describe this robber gang that masquerades as a European government in this God forsaken country of ours, please!!

Member

Dear JGrant, I agree that pigs are intelligent and clean. They also suffer cruelly at human hands. Whenever it is stated that the gendarmes herded my family into trains to transport them to Auschwitz as if they were just cattle, I have exactly the same reaction. It does not make the inhumane more humane to imply that it is not fit for humans but fit for animals. This is not about political correctness, but precisely the opposite. My own compassion for the refugees comes from precisely the same source as my compassion for all suffering creatures, human and non.

I hope only heartless trolls will feel inclined to take this opportunity to make jokes about this scene, and this sentiment.
comment image

Image: Jo-Anne McArthur (with permission)

Member

Dear Stevan.

I agree with you, but bad jokes come to my mind some time, mainly I think because of frustration. For that I am sorry.

Webber
Guest

Dear JGrant – thank you! I would like to add that cattle drovers, and peasants in general also are much more polite (truly) than members of The Party.

Member

Maybe that is why they are so difficult to understand for most outsiders.

Nkabcen
Guest

For sure Hungary is isolated diplomatically, but I’m far less sure that the politics of refugees is not going Orban’s way. Croatia and Slovenia basically have adopted policies not too dissimilar to Orban’s. The V4 countries also are tacitly supporting Hungary’s policies. Finally, even Western public opinion is moving in a similar direction. It is not a good time for Europe and just like Orban to take advantage of it.

Guest

@Nkabcen
It is takes a special type of incompetence by the Hungarian Government to isolate itself diplomatically for carrying out policies that are domestically popular and are being, as you observe, adopted by other countries.

Member
Hungarian Government Generosity Every single one of (Hungary’s Ottawa) Ambassador Odor’s strained justifications for the unpardonably inhumane treatment of the asylum-seekers by Hungary rings shamefully hollow (I resist the obvious metaphor.) While the Hungarian government is making “generous” gifts to troubled symbolic memorials to the past victims of communist atrocities, it has been spending the time since last february — long before the refugee numbers reached today’s levels, but when the growth rate was already clearly predictable — very ungenerously vilifying the current victims of atrocities in the Hungarian government-controlled media, erecting signs in Hungarian streets warning foreigners (in Hungarian) not to take Hungarian jobs, and circulating an outrageously biassed national “questionnaire,” designed to foment hatered and fear in advance, “asking” Hungarian citizens whether they want these potential terrorists in Hungary. If any genuine government generosity were at issue — generosity comparable to what the world showed towards the fleeing Hungarian refugees in 1956 — it would not have had to be Hungarian private citizens and private charities who were now, on their own initiative, and despite the hate campaigns and intimidation, feeding, sheltering, providing medical help and reassuring the growing numbers of exhausted, frightened, and traumatized victims about what… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Before the big stampede …
Before the “je suis syrien” wave.

Eustat published the second quarter data about asylum seekers in the EU two days ago.

In the first [second] quarter, there were 185,695 [213,200] asylum seekers registered.

Germany registered 154,085 asylum seekers in the first HALF of the year.
It was to receive about 400,000 for the entire year of 2015.

Suddenly, on August 19, the German Immigration Office announced that Germany expects 800,000. Ms Merkel added that all Syrians are accepted.
These statements accelerated the pace of migration.

Country of origin in the second quarter:

Syria 20.6%
Afghanistan 12.7%
Albania 8.3%

Iraq 6%
Kosovo 5%
Eritrea 4%
Pakistan 4%
Nigeria 3%
Ukraine 3%
Somalia 2%
Serbia 2%
Russia 2%

Country of registration:

Germany 38.0% [from Syria 20.2%, Albania 19.1%, Kosovo 9.2%]
Hungary 15.3% [from Afghanistan 41.7%, Syria 25.8%, Pakistan 8.2%]

Austria 8.2% [from Syria 30.4%, Afghanistan 23.2%, Iraq 16.1%]
Italy 7.0% [from Nigeria 19.6%, Gambia 11.0%, Pakistan 9.4%]
France 6.9% [from Kosovo 7.3%, Belgian Congo 6.2%, Sudan 5.7%]
Sweden 6.7% [from Syria 27.0%, Eritrea 16.8%, Afghanistan 9.6%]

UK 3.5%
Switzerland 3.3%
Netherlands 2.9%
Belgium 2.4%
….
Bulgaria 1.9%
Spain 1.7%
Greece 1.3% [!!!!]

Romania 0.1%
Croatia 0.0%
Slovenia 0.0%
Slovakia 0.0%

Source:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6996925/3-18092015-BP-EN.pdf

tappanch
Guest

2015 1st quarter details.

Country of origin:

Kosovo 26%
Syria 16%
Afghanistan 7%
Albania 4%
Iraq 4%
Serbia 3%
Pakistan 3%

Country of registration:

Germany 30.0% [from Kosovo 29%, Syria 19%, Albania 9%]
Hungary 15.2% [from Kosovo 70%, Afghanistan 12%, Syria 7%]
Italy 11.6%

Sweden 6.2% [from Syria 30%, Somalia 8%, Afghanistan 7%]
Austria 5.7% [from Syria 25%, Kosovo 21%, Afghanistan 16%]

Source:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6887997/3-18062015-CP-EN.pdf

István
Guest

Tappanch your data provided is extremely interesting at it relates to Germany. On August 19 Germany announced it would take 800,000 new refugees or did it announce it would accept a total of 800,000 more for 2015? Given your data it makes a big difference. So based on the data you provide around June 30, Germany accepted Germany 154,085 asylum seekers. So if the total is 800,000 for the entire year that would have indicated Germany had room for around 646,000 refugees from July to the end of December.

Or did Germany announce it would accept 800,000 over an indefinite period of time that it yet to be defined. It seems to me based on your data in either case at this point in time with the borders closed Germany has accepted no where near the total of 800,000 refugees. But the expectation, a rational one for educated Syrians who read the same reports we are, is that Germany still has massive capacity to accept refugees still.

tappanch
Guest

August 19, 2015:
As of July 31, the number of first-time asylum applications reached 195,723

http://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Meldungen/DE/2015/20150819-asylgeschaeftsstatistik-juli.html

August 19, 2015:
revised forecast: 800,000 applications are expected for this year. [why this number?? the previous estimates were 400,000 then 450,000]

but also here:
“BAMF-President Dr. Manfred Schmidt expressed confidence that the number of asylum applications from the Western Balkans will fall.”

http://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Meldungen/DE/2015/20150819-BM-zur-Asylprognose.html

tappanch
Guest

Rate of recognition of refugee or protected status by the German authorities

asylum requests from Syria:
2012: 95.7%
2013: 94.2%
2014: 99.91%
2015: 85.4% [first half of the year]

from Iraq:
2012: 60.1%
2013: 53.9%
2014: 88.7%
2015: 89.3% [first half of the year]

from Afghanistan:
2012: 39.0%
2013: 47.9%
2014: 68.5%
2015: 41.0% [first half of the year]

from Pakistan:
2012: 18.1%
2013: 33.9%

2015: 11.0% [first half of the year]

from Iran:
2012: 54.2%
2013: 55.5%
2014: 73.7%

from Somalia:
2013: 49.3%
2014: 74.2%

from Eritrea:
2013: 72.3%

2015: 73.0% [first half of the year]

carlkauffman1
Guest

I actually wonder if Orban will reach a moment of decision where he at least partially reverses this policy towards the refugees. Not for any humanitarian reasons but simply because it just isn’t going to work. I don’t think he cares much about foreign opinion but the Croatian move to bus thousands to Hungary and the decision to then bus the refugees straight to Austria through Hungary may be an admittance of failure. After alienating several neighbors the Hungarian government may just have to grudgingly do what it should have done all along and expedite those who continue to arrive in Hungary on their way towards Germany. To some extent he can claim to his supporters and Jobbik that he was tough on the invading foreigners but out of “compassion” has decided to let them through. He isn’t going to take down the fence but scenes of water cannons and tear gas may have tipped the point against obvious brutality by Hungarian authorities. At least I hope so for their sake and the reputation of Hungary.

JGrant
Guest

I have just found this post on Budapest Beacon which is only slightly OT and I apologise if I am repeating something that has appeared before. I have heard this speech mentioned before, but this is the first time I have actually read some of it in English. I am speechless! I thought I have heard and read everything, every madness imaginable by now, but NO, Orbán manages to outdo himself every time. The only way to describe his Friday’s speech is with the famous phrase: “The inmates are running the asylum!”

http://budapestbeacon.com/public-policy/orban-hungarys-sovereignty-depends-on-receiving-eu-funds/27582

Member

The Hungarian government’s sovereignty — and savagery — is subsidized by EU folly.

JGrant
Guest

You are spot on Stevan, but I find that I am amazed that he has the temerity to say it like that. Mind you, this must mean that for the first time he is obviously worried enough to comment on the possiblity that they might stop his gravy train. Oh, if only! I have no faith in EU bureaucrats to do anything sensible and/or decent nowadays. Corwardice is the defining character of that organisation.

Guest
@JGrant September 19, 2015 at 11:20 pm Peculiar, very peculiar, particularly Orbán’s comments about the EU dole he receives. Those comments are not just the height of impertinence and contemptuous ingratitude, but in the way he is biting the hand that feeds him provide clear evidence of Orbán and his followers are living in some parallel universe of utter lunacy. Two things are clear: One: with the extreme nationalism with which he is trying to outdo Jobbik, Orbán has now painted himself and Hungary into an international corner of opprobrium, disgrace, shame and dishonour (in some ways not unlike the corner in which Netanyahu’s Israel finds itself) which is going to get increasingly uncomfortable and increasingly more difficult to get out of, regardless of whatever past mastery he may have demonstrated in the art of pushing the envelope, then backing off when things got a bit too risky even for him (the pávatánc). Two: a total withholding of EU funds would probably be the surest way to bring Orbán and his mob to heel (including the rest of the former socialist countries of Eastern Europe so keen to jump on his bandwagon). If however that failed, Orbán’s Hungary should simply… Read more »
JGrant
Guest

Not entirely OT, but for those of you who read Hungarian here’s something for light relief. Needless to say I couldn’t really laugh at it, as it is very sad to see the incontrovertible evidence of this much brain washing.

http://www.delmagyar.hu/szentes_hirek/mindenki_mindenkit_menekultnek_nezett_nagymagocson/2445808/

Kormos
Guest

Could someone refresh my memory why the Balkan War war was started, when NATO countries with 400 sorties per day bombed Serbia?
The second question is; why does NATO stand still while this so called “refugee” crisis continues?

Member
What makes me really sad is seeing how the distance between the realities in which different people (in Hungary and elsewhere in Europe) live is growing at a frightening pace. While “immigration critics” (code word for “racist” in Finland, for instance) in Western Europe are hailing Orbán (“well done, just close the borders, this is what everybody should do!”), even some intelligent and critical Hungarians, otherwise clearly anti-Fidesz (AND anti-Jobbik) and outspoken critics of Orbán’s corrupt government, see themselves “compelled to admit” that Orbán has done the right thing. For those who read Hungarian: http://egyenlito.blog.hu/2015/09/18/igy_lettem_ballibbol_turbomagyar_8_lepesben . These “8 steps” basically boil down to two statements: 1. Muslim immigrants are and will be unable to get integrated, they will turn into terrorists and destroy European societies and cultures. (As if this were a law of nature and not a question of whether and how the immigrants are integrated into the receiving societies. At least so far, terrorists haven’t come as refugees, they are recruited from frustrated second- and third-generation immigrants, those with whom the integration policies have failed.) 2. Orbán’s policy has been consistent all the time, whatever one thinks of this awful anti-immigration poster campaign he has warned Europe of… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

In the first quarter of the year, the plurality of the migrants came from Kosovo.

Orban started his propaganda campaign in February to increase his popularity.

Germany negotiated with Kosovo to stop the emigration and the German authorities rejected almost all asylum applications from there. So the Kosovo immigration stopped.

Orban himself did not think migration would be a really serious problem: he did not do anything until early July.

tappanch
Guest

Re #1. Most Muslim immigrants to Europe regard themselves religious.

A.
We have to examine what kind of society Muhammad (“Allah”) mandated to each Muslim to spread all over the world?

Well, it is what we call dictatorship.

B.
How can we defeat this ideology? I have an idea, which can be of some help.

Muhammad was nicer, more tolerant in the beginning of his rule in Yathrib (Medina),
when he had less power.
The big problem is that Islamic scholars regard the later proclaimed, more dictatorial [find a better word here] chapters of the Quran [and Hadiths] as SUPERIOR to the earlier ones. (more than that: the later “revelations” ABROGATE the earlier ones when there is a contradiction)

Perhaps, we could challenge this rule !

Unfortunately, this is not easy, because Muhammad already had to face this criticism, so he dealt with it in verses 103 & 104 & 105 of sura 16.

103
“When we replaced a verse with another verse, they say:
“you [Muhammad] are a mere fabricator”.
other translation [Sahih International]
And we certainly know that they say,
“It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet.”

Nádas
Guest

Sentrooppa-Santra: “Or you let the asylum seekers in according to international agreements, inform, feed and register them, and process their applications…”

And there’s the rub. The migrants didn’t want to be registered in Hungary, in fact refused to be or even gave false information and then moved on as quickly as possible toward Germany. Let’s not forget that Germany and Austria, until quite recently, didn’t want them, either. When the numbers grew so large that speedy registration was impossible in any case, the masses literally broke out of their holding camps and moved en masse down the road.

Unfortunately, any easing of restrictions only encourages tens and even hundreds of thousands more to begin the trek toward Europe. It is inevitable that public opinion, if even tacitly, will turn against them at some point, whatever other Europeans are saying now about Orbán’s ugly handling of the situation in Hungary. At some point soon it will be not only hardcore right-wingers and neo-Nazi-types saying, “The boat is full.”

Solutions have to be put in place closer to the source, e.g., Turkey, and calls for such measures will grow louder, I think, soon.

Member
Yes, we have all read these stories about angry refugee mobs chanting “No fingerprint!” and “No camp!”. And from this, some people are jumping to the speedy conclusion that “Orbán was right all the time, these people don’t respect our laws”. The reporter of 444.hu who spent some time with the refugees at Röszke (http://444.hu/2015/09/09/roszke-2/), however, saw this as a consequence of lack of information: the refugees were never really informed about the procedure. And after seeing the actions of the underresourced Hungarian police forces (who also had to be fed by the civil aid organisations…) and how the policies of the authorities changed from day to day (on one day, you are allowed to travel, the next day, you are suddenly stopped and detained, the following day, you are sent by bus to the Austrian border…), it’s no wonder if the refugees have zero confidence in the Hungarian authorities. Claiming that these desperate people “don’t respect Hungarian laws” is a little bit far-fetched and unjust. And these desperate people will continue coming. Not because of social benefits, but simply in order to be able to live in a house again, to send their children to school and not to… Read more »
Guest
@Nádas September 20, 2015 at 4:04 am A little bit of common sense: For starters, use unlimited EU funds and NATO troops to seal hermetically both the land and sea borders between Greece/Bulgaria and Turkey, with anyone who nonetheless succeeds infiltrating it immediately returned to Turkey. Arranged in close collaboration with the Turkish government, a NATO member, and announced widely in the Turkish refugee and would-be immigrant camps in the main refugee and would-be immigrant languages of Arabic, Pashtu, Dari/Hazara, Urdu and Bengali. This can be achieved quietly and without fuss within two-three months, or if not, then certainly over the coming winter period. Two, at the same time speed-process all arrivals currently in Greece and the Balkans, then forward them in a decent and orderly manner straight to Germany and Sweden, with firm written undertaking to the countries of first registration that rejected asylum seekers will not be dumped on them, but repatriated directly to their home countries. Dublin or no Dublin. Three, at the same time extend unlimited EU funds to Turkey to ensure refugees and would-be immigrants are housed, clothed, fed and schooled in decent circumstances, and at the same time commence speed-processing refugees and would-be immigrants… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Mike – Hermetically seal the borders of Greece and Turkey??? That is all but impossible. Look at the Greek coastline (over 8,000 miles/13,000 km. of coastline there). Now look at the Turkish coastline. Now imagine…
What would that entail for Greece? For Turkey? What sort of limitations on freedom of movement for Greek and Turkish citizens would that mean?
Muammar Khadaffi’s Lybia could do it on 1,700 k.m. of coastline.
Democratic Greece certainly can not. Turkey can’t either.

spectator
Guest

But if you are the supplier of the chicken wire and the razor wire topping, it something to look forward to..!
Of course, all the other cases it sucks big time.

Who is in his/er right ming would think that this is plausible?

I mean, beside Orbán, Szijjártó and the other inbreed morons?

Guest
@Webber September 20, 2015 at 11:40 am I wasn’t thinking of any fences, walls or fortifications (you are right, those would be quite useless), but simply sufficient EU/NATO manpower to catch and immediately return to Turkey all who illegally cross into Greece, whether on land or sea. Just by itself, the coastline along the chain of Greek islands across Turkey in the Aegean Sea is very far from 13,000 km long (more like 1,000km), and the logistics of the exercise should not be insurmountable, since Arabic, Pashtu, Dari etc. speakers are easy to instantly spot and identify in a Greek speaking area, local police and people would be on hand to help, and the deployment of drones over sea crossings would enable early detection. Tough and uncompromising as the implementation of this strategy would have to be, the point is that it would be highly effective in halting the out-of-control human tide entering the EU via Greece and the Balkans, and more importantly, it would serve as a powerful deterrent to the tens of millions (or more) lining up behind the present crop of refugees and would-be immigrants. I regret very much to have to say this, but it seems… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Do that, and you will have violated every international convention on the treatment of refugees.
This is something even Russia has never done.
I don’t think it’s something the EU wants to do. It would be an awful and frightening precedent.

Guest

@Webber
September 21, 2015 at 1:31 am

Yes, Webber.

But maybe, just maybe, the conventions formulated in the realities prevailing fifty-odd years ago no longer meet the test of common sense in the realities of today.

MB
Guest

I’m with you on some of this being a good idea, but a) you keep saying “unlimited EU funds” like that’s a thing that exists, and b) hermetically sealed borders, or even functionally closed borders, are basically impossible for anything larger than a city-state (with walls). The Turkish and Greek coastlines? Uh, good luck with that.

Even the parts I agree with would require a lot of buy-in from non-EU countries, which have their own agendas.

Guest

@MB
September 20, 2015 at 12:20 pm

Re hermetically sealing the border between Greece and Turkey, please see my response to Webber immediately above (in Mike Balint, September 20, 2015 at 8:31 pm).

2.
By unlimited EU funds I meant sufficient funds made available from various EU and national sources to meet the costs of operating adequate controls along the Greek-Turkish border on land and sea. As currently not even a budget estimate exists for this, it would have to be as much money as it takes, for locking in the border controls, i.e. not limited by any preconceived considerations about the extent of the necessary spend.

3.
I agree with you that all of this would require a hell of a lot of buy-in, and not only from non-EU countries, but above all from EU members, which is essentially like trying to herd cats or chooks. I think however that with some deft arm twisting and a hell of a lot of financial support countries like Turkey or Libya would quickly fall in line. The real problem would be getting buy-in from EU members: I don’t think they would have the stomach or balls for any of this.

Guest

The sad side of this is:
All over Europe the haters are becoming stronger, parties like German NPD, Austrian FPÖ, UKIP, Front Nationale and Swedish SD are more popular than ever it seems – I sincerely hope that this is just a passing thing …

Webber
Guest

Wolfi – for the past twenty years, at least, I have heard people saying that the extreme right is getting stronger in Europe. In Haider’s time, some people thought he was the thin edge of the wedge, and that Europe’s future was neo-Nazism. Then there was a prediction not long ago that Golden Dawn would take over Greece. The extreme right goes up in some places and at some times. Later it goes down.

Webber
Guest

This morning I heard a pundit and Party Member say on t.v. that Croatia was endangering Europe by letting refugees pass straight through Croatia with no checks. Unfortunately the interviewer didn’t think to ask “so, is Hungary endangering Europe when it lets the very same refugees pass straight through Hungary to Austria with no checks? Was Hungary endangering Europe when it did the same for months, and months and months?”

the matrix is all around us
Guest
the matrix is all around us

Hungary was always alone, the powers-that-be always schemed to cause damage, to destroy Hungary. There’s nothing new in this. But we survived for 1,100 years, we will for another millenium. As long as Orban is leading the nation Hungary will never give in to the liberal puppet-masters. Luckily Russia is with Hungary, maybe Hungary’s only true friend.

Guest

Yes! Back to the Middle Ages!
This is how Germany sees Hungary:
http://www.der-postillon.com/2015/09/zutritt-nach-ungarn-kunftig-nur-noch.html
Der Postillon might be compared to the US satirical “The Onion”.

Webber
Guest

The Matrix – yeah… Poor Hungary isn’t in the EU. Poor, poor Hungary doesn’t get a penny from Brussels… Everyone constantly thinks about and hates poor Hungary…

Albrecht Neumerker
Guest

Than leave for Russia!

matrix
Guest

If Hungary would do anything illegal, anything bad Hungary would not be awarded by some 6bn euros per year by European taxpayers.

This fact alone proves that everything is fine with Hungary. Everything else is just the usual blubber by limousine liberals.

The EU is a region of rule of law. Let the law reign and let the law decide if there’s any problem with Hungary or the Hungarian government. Laundering political gossip and innuendo will get you nowhere.

To this date absolutely nothing has been proved which would have indicated that Hungary or its government did anything illegal. All is clean. The government of Hungary is popular, legitimate and strong.

Only liberal wussies would give a sh*t about what others think about Hungary. A real leader has conviction about the rightness of his or her principles.

Stop slandering Hungary.

spectator
Guest

Li’l darling, it isn’t about Hungary, but all in its earnest about your Lord and Syre: Orbán!

You know, that caesaromaniac little prick who happens to be the Hungarian PM at the moment. So, you don’t have to worry about “Hungary doing something illegal”, but Orbán by the other hand better start worrying right away.

And you know why?
Regrettably, the string of the purse still isn’t in his hand..! And just this little detail will make him go to Brussels tail between his hind legs. He still hadn’t enough to steal, you know, so he just can not afford to endanger his inflow of funds.
Life is just so unjust you see..

Webber
Guest

Here’s the news in Hungarian for you, Matrix. Is this slander? When they wrote the same about Gyurcsany, was it slander? If we translated it into English, is it slander?
http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20150919-mara-megbekelt-a-fidesz-a-gumilovedekkel-es-a-viperaval.html
Grow up.

matrix
Guest

Only the naive leftists and undecided voters who were successfully converted by Fidesz, ha ha, thought that Fidesz genuinely cared about the rubber bullets. Are you serious? The 2006 events were engineered by people close to Fidesz, I agree. Of course Ferenc Gyurcsany and his underlings performed as predicted and that helped. But that was 10 years ago who cares about those days? Fidesz grabbed the power successfully and that’s that. Isn’t this the goal of politics? As they say in love and war there are no rules the hapless szocis should’ve realized that.

The Socialists should’ve been smarter in power. Alas they were corrupt, naive and amateur. Their historic fate was to fail, fall apart and allow the stronger one to come to power.

The Leftwing in Hungary is about to disappear like the dinosaurs. The future belongs to the strong and smart, not to the weak and clueless.

The popular Prime Minister Viktor Orban holds the power with an iron grip and he isn’t about to let it fall into the hands of liberals.

Webber
Guest

Might makes right, eh?
If you believe that, then you must also think that Hungary and the Hungarians deserve everything they go, every bit of suffering. Trianon and everything else was just because the powerful could do it and did. So, it was right. The winners did it.
Where does that put you? What do you think awaits Hungary with that philosophy? Among the winners? Where’s the power? Hmm?
I think we all know that philosophy, and where it leads.

Member

Webber: Often on this blog people call anyone a troll, but trust me when I say “matrix” who runs under many pseudonym is a Troll. He’s style is in reminisce of earlier posts that were more Jobbik supporting posts, but he is still the same troll.

Webber
Guest

Some1 – Yes, I had the fauna identified, though I wasn’t sure of the subspecies (Trolles hungarica fideszis or jobbikis?) I might stop feeding him, but I think he is rather useful in a way. The more he appears in the light, the more healthy people will be nauseated by the species. When they just lurk in the dark, they don’t seem so bad.

Guest

Troll baiting can also be fun – sometimes!

Just look at politics.hu where Fiddiks and White Supremacists regularly appear and say the most horrible/funny things. Just a few examples:
“Migrants, not refugees! More exactly: they are Muslim invaders who are assisted by Europe’s traitors, the liberals and left-wingers.”

“Another well-known thing is that you’re an anti-Hungarian, Hungarian-speaking libnazi Jew and you still haven’t thanked his Serene Highness Miklós Horthy, Regent of Hungary, for your shitty, useless existence.”

“Mostly what jews brought to our countries was, usury, decadent immoral art, decadent immoral entertainment (movies/shows/media/popmusic industry), anti-christian policies, communism, the scam of psychoanalysis, the liberal left ideology, multicultural ideology, LGBT rights, open border policies in only white countries, mass immigration from the third world into only white countries, “human rights and anti-hate laws” used against the ethnic people of Europe.”

PS @ Eva:
If you think these examples are too atrocious, please feel free to delete them!

Guest

Trolls can serve a real purpose: I largely hear from people who’s views I can agree with. Thus a troll who gives the other side is doing me a favor. Of course, I’m not talking about ad hominem attacks, but substantive ideas from the right.

Member

I agree that his writing is familiar. This troll is not new.

spectator
Guest
“The popular Prime Minister Viktor Orban holds the power with an iron grip and he isn’t about to let it fall into the hands of liberals. Right! But what about someone else from the very same party? Imagine, that Orbán is already not only disgrace to Hungary, but even to his own party – called Fidesz, if memory serves well. It easily can come to a point when the political survival of Hungary vill depend on if the Fidesz will be able to offer alternative to Orbán, or it remains the sole product of a mentally challenged maniac? Then could – for example – Lázár come handy. He is just about as much greedy and ruthless than Orbán, but has much more civilised appearance and better manners altogether, so Fidesz could have a chance after all. You see, the alternative not necessarily a liberal government, it could be a truly conservative as well, but devoid of the primitive Orbanian rhetoric, ideology and unacceptable diplomatic manners. A European, in short. I know, this is some really hard task to find within the ranks of the Fidesz, but hey, don’t give up! You may even find someone who master the proper use… Read more »
Member
I have to admit I was half-wrong when assessing the new situation on the other day. On the wrong side was presuming that Orban would be forced to cooperate with other countries, at least with Germany or the EU. (Admittedly, such cooperation even with Austria does not exist!) Now it is increasingly clear that the Victor try to stick to unilateralism (none-cooperation) and his choice is self-isolation. I think @Eva was the first to notice that turn. Bravo! Instead of changing practices (not rhetoric), he is trying to change others. His attempts of influencing the situation in other EU countries are on the threshold of undue interference in the internal affairs of other countries. (That is what he tried to avoid by any costs in regard of the sovereignty of Hungary.) His appeal to the nationalistic public opinion of other countries is partly working. I am not sure how long they let it go. (On the other day, I’ve seen an interview with the well-paid former Amb.K.Volker who was more critical towards the EU, US than Hungary.) So Eleni T.K. analysis on the effect of policies on Europe is not that shallow, after all. At stakes is Schengen. Those interested… Read more »
Member

Comprehensive overview by Hungarian-born British poet and translator, George Szirtes

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/20/what-s-the-matter-with-hungary.html

István
Guest
Eva in relationship to your post. Serbian Interior Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic’s comments used are profoundly problematic, but they do demonstrate the decline in relations between the two nations. The statement is problematic; first because by the time it was made on or about Sept 17 Germany had already closed it borders to mass entry of refugees for what is an indefinite period of time, and Secondly because there is no evidence that Serbia is accepting significant numbers of refugees, the evidence is that they are simply facilitating their movement outside of Serbia’s borders. Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic at the beginning of September would only say “Serbia will accept a number of refugees.” That statement has never been further defined nor critically examined by the Serbian media. I would suggest that Dr Irina Molodikova runs the Project on Migration and Security, Central European University, Budapest has a deep and useful analysis of the situation as it relates to Hungary. Her latest short essay can be read at http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/20/refugees-hungary-croatia-muslims-tensions Molodikova publicly opposed Hungarian law on religious “freedom” on the 21st, July 2011 abolished all Muslim “churches” because it recognized only 11 Christian and 3 Jewish denominations. She has also helped organize… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Istvan – you said the following: ‘Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic at the beginning of September would only say “Serbia will accept a number of refugees.” That statement has never been further defined nor critically examined by the Serbian media.’ If what you said were true, I would ask, so what? What was wrong with what Vucic said? But – correct me if I’m wrong – you don’t speak Serbian, right? So, since when do you know that the Serbian media has not critically examined what Vucic said on that occasion? How do you know that? (you are quite wrong – Serbian media picks his speeches to pieces, of course) Even the fact that you are wrong is irrelevant here, because not a single refugee wants to stay in Serbia (or Hungary, for that matter). The point of the quotes Eva provides is 1. to illustrate how bad relations with neighboring countries now are. 2. (for me) to give a contrast to Hungary, where the government has encouraged hatred and xenophobia against unfortunate people who are just passing through. In Croatia, the PM has been excellent in speaking humanely. In Serbia, Vucic is just one of many officials who have… Read more »
István
Guest

Webber my point is similar to the one Dr Irina Molodikova makes in her essay, that is the rejection of the refugees by Central European States is based on deep historical roots. As you can see from my post I acknowledge Eva’s intention of pointing to the deteriorating relationship with Serbia, but the quote used is problematic. Because many of us despise PM Orban that is no reason to discuss the Serbs role in all of this as if it is some kind of lesser evil. Moreover, there is a history of Serbian mass murder of Moslems in the not too distant past that taints that nation as deeply as Hungary and Germany are tainted by the Holocaust.

There is a Central European sickness her in relationship to these refugees, Hungary has the worst case of it, but the sickness is wide spread. Presumably that should clarify my comment for you.

I do not read or speak Serbian, I assume Webber that you do and have found that that nation has clarified its position on how many refugees it plans on accepting for asylum. What is that number if you know it?

Webber
Guest
Istvan: Dr. Molodikova’s essay is nice, but does nothing to resolve the issue immediately at hand. Again, what is the point? It reminds me of essays during the wars of Yugoslav succession explaining the deep cultural differences and historical gripes between Bosnian Muslims, Croats, and Serbs. “Nice. Thank you for that. Now can we talk about details of a potential cease fire, and what your troops are doing around Tuzla at the moment” Do you really want Eva to write an essay about Dr. Molodikova’s essay??? what you wrote above suggests that Eastern European sickness — it seems that the point of the highest infection right now is Hungary, doesn’t it? Judging from other countries’ policies, that is. Do you really want the figure for Serbia? It is irrelevant, but 10,000 is a figure bandied about as a number that they can handle. To the best of my knowledge, no refugees have registered to stay in Serbia (they could, you know). Serbia’s problem- and it is acute – is that tens of thousands are passing through the country week after week, and some of these people need help along the way. Unlike Hungary (which has the same problem), Serbia has… Read more »
István
Guest

“Eastern European sickness — it seems that the point of the highest infection right now is Hungary, doesn’t it?” I believe I have stated that repeatedly haven’t I, it seems obvious.

Guest

Re: ‘The future belongs to the strong and smart, not to the weak and clueless’.

heheh.. With that pix, Mr. Szijjarto sure looks like he’s been eaten up in a political meatgrinder. If he is ‘okos’ then he and his associates must realize that their shoot-from-the-hip and not very perspicacious handling of the ‘unwanted’ indeed show them indeed weak and clueless in this absolute foreign policy bumble. It has undoubtedly failed. This is going to hurt for a long time.

If Hungary is now completely alone it would suggest that that will intensify the paranoia within the administration. The ‘poor-me’s and a further slide into victimization perhaps will follow next. Why are they against us? What have we done? Why do they hate us so? Have to say look for Vlad to be vacationing with Viktor in the Magyar countryside more often. They’ll be talking over palinka in how to succeed in restoring ‘reputations’. One is already a political alcoholic on that. The other I think will have to join him.

tappanch
Guest

Here is a new question.

Isn’t the accelerated refugee/migrant problem Tsipras’s revenge for the bad deal he got from Germany, at least partially?

The Greek government could prevent the hundreds of thousands form landing on the islands. They could also cut the free ferry service to the refugees/migrants from the islands to Athens !

August 07, 2015

“Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras underlined that the escalating migration crisis is critical matter affects the whole of Europe and not just Greece alone. PM Tsipras commented that tackling the issue will reveal whether there is a case for solidarity in Europe, or whether European solidarity is limited to “wishful thinking and borrowing with unfavorable terms”.”

http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=728218

erdős
Guest

These are the usual conspiracy theories. Greece has not changed anything re refugees and migration in general in the last I don’t know how many years. There’s no revenge in this. How could the Greek prevent the landing on its dozens of islands, by sinking the boats? They don’t even have a reliable real estate register after decades in the EU for heaven’s sake. Greece is a totally corrupt disfunctional state (which after many years of austerity and political turmoil could not accomplish one single structural reform) which encompasses huge geographical areas if the seas are included, and the central political power is just weak in the outer islands. Even Italy and Spain struggle with the migrants arriving via the Mediterranian.

tappanch
Guest

Let me be provocative again:

Shouldn’t NATO have a role in defending Europe from this invasion/mass migration?

Of course, NATO is led by the USA, whose president is Mr Obama for another year.

I know the counterarguments:
1. Turkey is already in the NATO,
2. this is not an armed invasion,
3. this is not an invasion at all, but a mass refugee resettlement,
when no passports and visas needed, everyone has the right to assume
a brand new identity, including thousands of terrorists.

All right, please flame me !

An
Guest

Tappanch, of course terrorists can take advantage of the situation. But so far the German security checking out the new arrivals found no evidence for an organized attempt on part of the terrorists to get in Germany.
http://hvg.hu/vilag/20150920_Szir_menekultek_buktattak_le_a_kozejuk_ke

István
Guest

To a degree I agree with you. At this point NATO should be at least preparing a plan for many more migrants from the Middle East and Africa. Whether they should be blocked from entering any NATO nation based on security concerns is a very tricky issue.

Webber
Guest

NATO should NOT be preparing for migrants!
Talk about drift! That has nothing to do with the alliance.
That would be the death of NATO.
What will you propose next, NATO on the Mexican border???
Get serious people.
This is Europe’s problem. Europe never, ever, ever offered to help the US with its migrant issue (what is it, 11-12 m. illegals in the US right now?), and that is as it should be.

Incidentally, pop. of the US – more than 300 m.
Pop. of the EU – more than 500 m.

This whole thing can be resolved by Europe.

Member

Tappanch, Tappanch, why are you soiling your enviable record of years of faithful and precious evidence-gathering with this kind of thing? Could it really be that no one within the borders of the land or the language is immune to Orban’s perverse, pervasive Pannonian pestilence? Please stick to the data, your unrivalled specialty, and leave the sinister conspiracy theorizing to the trolls. (Or is Orban putting something into the drinking water?)

tappanch
Guest

Speaking of Orban: “Vak tyúk is talál szemet” 🙂

More exactly, “találHAT”, even if he is the nasty destroyer of democracy
in Hungary.

Now let us examine the issues by their merit !

I do not claim I am right. I pose questions to myself, and share them with you.

petofi
Guest

@tappanch

Never you mind the naysayers, be they professorial or not–feel free to put forth interesting suppositions. (It gets me that a professor should argue against freely examining a topic–any topic.)

The actions of the US are deafening by their silence in this case. Why?
The UN is an American-financed organization and it has been MIA, too.

It has been only a few years ago that some thinkers have posited that America’s major challenge will eventually come from a strong and united euro zone…

Put that idea in your mix and stir it–

gdfxx
Guest

As I said, the US accepts 85,000 refugees every year. Next year that was increased to 100,000.

The UN is a large lunch club, its main action is to take up available parking space in New York City.

István
Guest

The NY Times has an article on this increase in refugee admissions, it can be read at http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/europe/us-to-increase-admission-of-refugees-to-100000-in-2017-kerry-says.html?_r=0

There is an important point made in that article which reads: “Mr. Obama has the authority to increase the refugee cap, but Congress will need to approve the additional funding. State Department officials have said that it cost $1.1 billion to accept and resettle 70,000 refugees in 2015.” I have serious doubts whether all that money will be appropriated by Congress but we shall see.

The funding for the addition refugees for 2015 hasn’t even been approved yet let alone the totals now being discussed by Sec Kerry for 2016. Do not assume because the President wants something he can make it happen.

gdfxx
Guest

Istvan, you may be right. However, during the Obama administration numerous decisions were made by the President via Executive Orders and Congress seemed to be powerless when trying to stop them.

Webber
Guest

Istvan is right. Only Congress can approve the funding. If Congress refuses to, this initiative is dead. I rather think Congress will say “okay”, but there’s no telling.

betegeskedunk
Guest

It is all suspicious.
USA remains silent but no lack of complimentary remarks in the direction of the mullahs.
Orban was probably instructed to make max noise, to rattle the EU.
The plot is thickening.

gdfxx
Guest

Who is that you think gives instructions to Obama?

Webber
Guest

the US has not remained silent. You are just not listening.

Webber
Guest

Petofi, Good lord, man.
Look at how many initiatives pass through the UN that the US doesn’t like (an Israeli really should know this stuff).
They are stopped at the Security Council – some by the US, some by Russia (etc.). What Russia stops, generally the US wants from the UN. This is really simple stuff.

spectator
Guest

Of course, you are right tappanch, it isn’t the problem.

The problem is: then what?
You can’t stop them, can you?
Orbán has no chance to do so either, even if he put Hungary in a cage completely!

Without global cooperation nothing will ever work. But as things looking right now even Europe have to cooperate without Hungarian participation, because obviously Hungary stuck with Hunyady and Dugovics, as the last examples of handling similar situations.

Mind you, if you look at Titusz Dugovics and a suicide bomber, you may find uncomfortable parallels, but hey, we are Hungarians – at least…

Webber
Guest

As you pointed out, this isn’t “an invasion.” (An Israeli really should know the difference)
NATO isn’t for stopping refugees.
No NATO member is under attack.

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

“‘The future belongs to the strong and smart, not to the weak and clueless’.”

Refugees 1-0 Orbán’s Clowns then- that’s the up to date score and the facsist regime’s defences are looking weaker by the moment.

Refugees with nothing but a bottle of water and self-respect have made a laughing stock of your “smart lawyers” who at this very moment are deciding which of the two traditional Fidesz responses to follow- Hit the palinka and blame the world anti-Magyar conspiracy for their sorrows or give their wife and kids a good kicking.

tappanch
Guest

Orban was very happy with the developments this weekend, conferring with his close aids in Velence.

“The refugee crisis drew the attention away from the unpleasant affairs”

http://vs.hu/kozelet/osszes/orban-a-menekultvalsag-a-kellemetlen-ugyekrol-elterelte-a-figyelmet-0920

Tyrker
Guest

Despite appearances, Hungary’s isolation is not nearly as severe as it was last winter.
Index has posted a long but very insightful analysis on the matter:

http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/21/orban_viktor_keresztes_hadjarat_europa_kulpolitika/

This is a great read for everyone who speaks Hungarian.

Webber
Guest

Tyrker – you’ve lost the plot. The article doesn’t demonstrate that Hungary’s isolation is less severe – and if the author made that claim, he’s an idiot. But he didn’t make that claim.
All he says is that Orban and crew are COUNTING on being less isolated. I quote: “Orbánék ezzel együtt arra számítanak, hogy a mai szakadék a magyar és az uniós politika között szűkülni fog,…”
That is “Orban and his staff are counting on the current rift between Hungarian and EU polices to narrow.”
Thinking it will be so isn’t the same as it being so.
Even the author admits the rift is there.
Look at major Western papers, right wing or left wing, they all condemn Orban in the harshest terms. I haven’t seen Hungary’s image this universally bad in the past 20 odd years.

Tyrker
Guest
The author makes the following points: – the winter of 2014/2015 represented the nadir of Hungarian foreign policy – at that time, Hungary was viewed almost like a satellite of Putin’s Russia – US-Hungarian relations were extremely cold due to the alleged corruption cases of certain Hungarian officials and Hungary’s ‘friendliness’ towards Russia – the Visegrád Agreement seemed to be dead, even the Poles had turned away from the Hungarian government – Orbán was viewed as a serious troublemaker within the EU Since then – Hungary has turned away from Russia and aligned herself with Germany – Orbán’s “Eastern Opening” policy, which had irritated the West, has been abandoned – Merkel visited Hungary and did not condemn Orbán the way his opponents had hoped – Europe has learned that Tsipras is a real troublemaker, while Orbán is not – Orbán might still be viewed as a dictator, but is a harmless and ‘domesticated’ one – the Visegrád Group is alive and kicking, unified in its support for Hungary – even the traditionally anti-Hungarian Fico is supporting Orbán – Orbán is winning back the support of deeply religious Poland – there is a clear shift toward the right in Western Europe,… Read more »
Webber
Guest

On those points the author is dreaming about what might be, but even in the midst of his dreams, he admits there is a “rift.”
On his dreams:
The Polish PM and Donald Tusk have, in fact, condemned Orban’s actions in no uncertain terms.
Merkel has condemned Orban’s actions recently in no uncertain terms.
The Serbian President and PM have both condemned Hungary’s actions.
People associated with Orban’s govt. are still blacklisted from visiting the US (there is an Ambassador – so what? The two countries aren’t at war.)
Relations with Croatia are at an all-time low.
Relations with Romania are rotten.
Relations with Austria are awful.
Slovakia might be seen as a “bright spot”, but I would be willing to bet that they are gloating over Orban’s fall in Bratislava.
I could go on – but the entire article is such a mess of wishful thinking, and “what might be” that I don’t see the point, or how any serious person could regard it as significant. It’s a “how about we try this guys” policy piece. If Orban or Szijjarto wrote it, it would be interesting. As it is, it’s just well written blabla.

Guest

Only the extreme right wing lunatics are applauding the Hungarian government.
From UKIP and Wilders in the Netherlands to the German NPD and Vaclav Klaus – the discredited former Czech president …
I wouldn’t want applause from them – I’d know that some thing’s terribly wrong then!

Webber
Guest

Yep. Hence you get this breathless hope (nay, expectation) that W. European neo-fascists will somehow succeed in elections from Hungarian r-wingers (who call themselves “center-right”: great jokers!)
When will the EPP cotton on, I wonder?

Rudy Roth
Guest

By focusing on the rising tide of Bibi’s fascism in Israel, Orban still belongs to minor league chauvinists.

Nevertheless, regardless of his diatribes, democratic apostasy and hybridised Jobbik-like rightism, he is not so alone as the formal EU rhetoric presents him. In fact, he enjoys the same (if not even more) share of EU support as before, just that some establishments felt the need to highlight the normative collisions of his actions. From V4 capitals to Copenhagen, Stockholm, etc., beyond the ethical and human rights rhetoric lies the fear of having more migrants in Europe’s backyard. So yeah… shoo at Orban’s light-dictatorship, but tacitly agreeing with his measures.

P.S. Szijjártó was absolutelly right in his appreciation about Romanian Prime Minister Ponta. Let’s not remember that Victor Ponta was the only European leader who attended the European Games in Azerbaijan, earlier this summer, in the privileged company of Erdogan, Putin, Lukashenko and Berdimuhamedow. So, out of the blue, Ponta’s woke up and found its democratic vocation and began pointing fingers at Orban… I mean… really?

Webber
Guest

Yes, Szijjarto was right about Ponta.
And Ponta was right about Orban.
It’s refreshing when people like that tell the truth!
Orban was, after all, in Azerbaidjan before Ponta got there, and Alijev was in Budapest too. In appreciation, Orban called Azerbaidjan a “model state.”
Stories here, if you read Hungarian
http://444.hu/2014/11/11/orban-szerint-azerbajdzsan-es-magyarorszag-is-vilagos-strategia-menten-iranyitott-vezetett-helyes-iranyba-forditott-orszag/

http://hvg.hu/itthon/20141111_Alijev_Budapesten

Guest

And don’t forget the story about the Azeri axe murderer sent home by Hungary who became a hero …
PS:
Rudy is imho one of the new generation of more sophisticated Fidesz trolls that we find here now and then …
The old ones were too idiotic.

Miklos
Guest

Hello to all the Ultra Liberals!
We spent the last two weeks in the “lion’s den”, also known as Budapest. We gave food and fruits to small children, we visited Keleti Palyaudvar, read daily the biased NYT and The Guardian, watched the “savage and brutal” Hungarian police beating innocent little children.
It is a tragedy, when a human rider want to cross Hungary to reach the “Heaven” also known as Germany.
What you do not know, that many many poor migrant have the most sophisticated iphones, pay, sometimes 300 to 500 Euros to taxis, carrying them from the Serbian border to Austria. What you also do not know, that Greece is violating the Schengen Agreement, not registering the migrant, and the Serbians, and now the EU member Croatians try to push them over to Hungary as soon as possible.
To further enlarge your rather limited understanding, please read the 9/19 issue of The Economist, they fair and well balanced long report about Orban.

gdfxx
Guest

“What you also do not know, that Greece is violating the Schengen Agreement, not registering the migrant”

I saw a news clip last night, showing people getting off the boat, lined up to be fingerprinted by Greek authorities. Greek people (civilians) with medical face-masks and rubber gloves were fingerprinting them,

Webber
Guest
Hello to another Out-of-Touch Orbanite! Your writing is good, but your comprehension is apparently not great. To enlarge your limited understanding of English, I suggest you look up understatement and sarcasm, and then read the Economist article again. You’ll find a bit of both in it. Allow me to illustrate with some sentences from the article you recommend we read: ” like his countrymen, Mr Orban found operating in freedom a tougher task than expected. ” – I’ll parse that for you — the author has just said Hungarians can’t handle freedom, and neither can Orban. Now, is that a compliment? I’d take it as an insult to the nation. Here’s another: “The great social debates in the postwar West—feminism, anti-racism, gay rights, the end of deference to authority—went pretty much unnoticed, and still mystify supporters of Mr Orban.” The author has just called Orban’s supporters ignorant. Did you not notice? Another national insult? Perhaps not – only an insult to the 30% minority of the active electorate who support Orban. The next sentence reads: “His worldview was shaped, he says, by an Hungarian epic called “Miklos Toldi”, describing a 14th century nobleman.” Which words come to mind to you?… Read more »
Miklos
Guest

You must have read a different article. And thanks to note my limited understanding of English. This remarks tells me a lot about you.

Webber
Guest

I doubt there were two articles on Orban in the same issue of The Economist – and the date of the article I quote is the one you gave (above).
So, either you didn’t actually read what you recommended to us, or you didn’t understand what you read.

exTor
Guest

Webber: Nice takedown of Miklos. You neatly eviscerated him.

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