Viktor Orbán and the “Christian-National Idea”

“Christian and national.” These two concepts are frequently bandied about by Viktor Orbán. Every time I hear him talking about these concepts in such glowing terms I wonder whether he is aware of the meaning of the “keresztény-nemzeti eszme” or Christian-National Idea. I also wonder whether he ever contemplates the contradiction inherent in coupling these two terms. After all, Christianity is considered to be a universal, supranational concept while “national” is a notion applicable to the particular. This is especially true for the Catholic Church, which even carries the idea of universality in its name.

I also wonder whether non-Hungarians fully understand the true meaning of the term in the Hungarian historical context. Most likely not. The “Christian-National Idea” was the dominant ideology of the Horthy era, and therefore the use of the term should be avoided. Opinions on the nature of the Horthy regime may vary, but I think it is universally acknowledged that it was an authoritarian system that granted only limited political rights to its citizens. Surely, returning to the ideals and practices of such a regime in the name of democracy is more than bizarre and retrograde. It is incompatible with Hungary’s membership in the European Union.

But the notion of the Christian-National Idea should be avoided for another reason: historically, in the Hungarian context, “Christian” meant not someone who professes belief in Jesus as Christ and follows a religion based on his teachings but someone who is “not Jewish.” Strengthening the Christian middle class, which was one of the Horthy regime’s aims, meant preventing the social and economic advancement of Hungarian Jews by blocking their way to higher education.  During the interwar years the churches enthusiastically assisted in the propaganda of the Christian-National Idea and, as the historian Miklós Szabó put it, “they allowed the name of Christianity to be used as a cover-up for anti-Semitism.”

I find it odd that a government that vehemently protests every time it is accused of being anti-Semitic would turn to the Christian-National Idea, one of whose most important elements was anti-Semitism. The other components were revisionism, anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and conservatism. Under the present circumstances revisionism is out of the question, but Orbán and his fellow politicians in Fidesz solved that problem by the “virtual unification of the nation” across borders. To demonstrate the idea of a nation one and indivisible, among the Fidesz European Parliamentary members there are four ethnic Hungarians from outside of Hungary: from Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, and Serbia. The other two components of the Christian-National Idea–anti-liberalism and anti-communism–are at the core of the present Hungarian political system. Conservatism, however, has been replaced by a far-right ideology with many references to the peaceful revolution in 2010. Just as a commentator said the other day, it matters not whether the prime minister of Hungary is Viktor Orbán of Fidesz or Gábor Vona of Jobbik. Their ideologies are indistinguishable.

Viktor Orbán’s references to nation, nationalism, and Christianity are abundant, and here I would like to quote only a few that I find most jarring. About a year ago he claimed that “Christian culture is the unifying force of the nation.” It gives “the inner essence and meaning of the state.” And he added that “that’s why we declare that Hungary will either be Christian or not at all.” Or, here is another take on the theme: Hungarians are Europeans not because Hungary is geographically part of Europe but again “because we are Christians.” I won’t even try to make sense of all this, although such ideas even got into the preamble to the Fidesz constitution of 2011: “We recognize the role of Christianity in preserving nationhood.”

Vktor Orbán's view of the world

Vktor Orbán’s view of the world

By now, as we learned from Viktor Orbán’s speech at Kötcse, the Christian-National Idea is a political creed that he wants to apply to the whole of Europe. The refugee crisis offered Viktor Orbán an opportunity to lead a movement that will replace the liberal blah blah with the Christian-National Idea. I very much doubt that anything will come of Viktor Orbán’s ambitious dreams, but I must say that it would be an interesting twist of fate if the reactionary Horthy regime’s Christian-National Idea became the dominant ideology of the future European Union.

Just like Horthy during the interwar period, Orbán found enthusiastic supporters for his Christian-National Idea among the church leaders. The most important clerical spokesman for the state ideology of the Horthy regime was Ottokár Prohászka (1858-1927), an early representative of Christian socialism. Because of Prohászka’s vicious anti-Semitism, the Catholic Church didn’t promote his ideas after 1945, some of which were actually quite progressive socially. Since 1990, however, the Catholic Church has embarked on a rehabilitation of Prohászka. By now numerous schools are named after him, and his statues and busts are all over the country. He was the one, by the way, who coined the word “Hungarism” that later was used by Ferenc Szálasi to describe his Hungarian style of national socialism. His writings are full of references to the necessity of a Christian-national Hungary that must battle against Jewish influences that would, left unchecked, lead to the destruction of the nation. Prohászka was one of the forces behind the introduction of the numerus clausus of 1920 that fixed the Jewish presence in higher education at 5%.

In brief, the Christian-National Idea is a loaded concept full of the worst instincts of the Hungarian far right, going back at least a century. There are a number of commentators who claim that Viktor Orbán and his cohorts have no definable ideology. They have only one aim: to remain in power. They adjust their propaganda accordingly. They are simple populists. The recurring theme of the “Christian and National Idea,” however, indicates to me that they wittingly or unwittingly sympathize with the ideology of the Hungarian far right of the interwar period, an ideology that bore striking resemblances to fascism and national socialism.

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tappanch
Guest

It took 24 hours for index.hu to discover the possibly checkered past of the tripped Syrian football coach.

Their source of information was Russia, and the Russians published it 6 hours after the allegations appeared in Eva’s blog. [OK, I feel satisfaction that I noticed it before the Russians …]

http://index.hu/kulfold/2015/09/22/menekult_fociedzo_an-nuszra_al-kaida_hoax/
http://www.rt.com/news/316124-refugee-camerawoman-kicked-militant/

Webber
Guest

Someone else pointed that out yesterday. I believe you noticed it then – didn’t you?
What you didn’t say, but what that other poster did say, is that the author of the Hungarian article you posted also believes it might be a hoax and says why. He also noted that not a single respectable international news agency had picked up the story yet. As far as I can see, trustworthy news agencies still haven’t published the story (unless you consider Russian news trustworthy).

Krisztofor
Guest
The Russians are the best in misinformation. Hell, RT (your link) is a declared tool in the misinformation war Russia is waging against the EU and NATO. Russians clearly assist Hungary in its efforts to divide the EU, undermine it and cause confusion and dissent. The Russians want to ensure that Europe will hate the immigrants because politically that would prove Putin-Dugin right, who pose as saviors of the Christian/European/conservative white culture against the decadence of the West where power is taken over by Islamist (ie. first by godless liberals, who will then lose out to Islamists). Orban just as Putin firmly believes in the death of the West, in the idea of the enfeebled, bled out loser West which is taken over by the cancer of Liberalism and democracy and human rights. I’m quite certain that Putin also uses the Russian jews for his political purposes just as Pröhle is now “defending” the Hungarian jewry. “Actually the border fence and the anti-Islam propaganda are just to defend the jews, we don’t want another Holocaust, and although the Orban government is staunchly Christian-National, it knows it has historic obligations, so we gotta do it. The Western governments of course cannot… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Krisztofor – excellent comment!
On Pröhle’s remarks on Jews: they sickened me. The man is an anti-Semite who is more clever than most at hiding it, but it still comes out from time to time. For example, after a little wine at a semi-official dinner he started berated some American Jews about the press’s “unfair” depiction of Hungary. Nobody understood why he was focussing on them, until it became from his words that he believes that 1. the intl. press is controlled by Jews; and 2. that by communicating to one Jew, or a group of Jews, he is actually addressing all Jews, that is that all Jews think alike because they are part of a grand Jewish conspiracy.
When Pröhle made his comment about Hungarian Jews being afraid of Muslims, suggesting that this was one of the sources of Fidesz’s resistance to Muslim immigration, my first thought was “as if your kind has been so kind,” my second thought was rather paranoid: “how convenient it would be for you if you were to ‘catch’ a Muslim trying to blow up a synagogue in Hungary – two birds with one stone!”

tappanch
Guest

I do no think the Kurds wanted to assist any Russian or Hungarian propaganda. (Neither did I) A few days ago, a Lebanese Christian politician estimated that 2% of the migrants are sent by Islamic terrorists. Earlier I said that even 1% is enough for a huge wave of terror in Europe. Of course, neither Da’esh nor Qaida will tell me how many they sent. Don’t delude yourself that they did not use the catastrophic collapse of security (tens of thousands entered Europe with fake or no documents)!!!

Webber
Guest

“the Kurds” – meaning one website? That is “the Kurds?”
A Lebanese Christian politician… wonderful source. Very solid. He has information… As if a Lebanese Christian politician might not want to win votes by saying something about Muslims. As if he might not have a bone to pick.

Let’s just wait and see, tappanch. Surely it seems odd to you, by now, that none of the major news agencies have picked it up? There is nothing on Reuters, AP, etc.
Though you can be certain that they have looked into it, and may be looking into it now.

If there is anything in it, it will hit all papers. If it’s a lie, they will not touch it. They won’t even glorify it by mentioning it. It will just be one more of many stories made up by various people to demonize refugees (on which, you’ve seen the summaries pub. on Index and BBC which I posted yesterday).

tappanch
Guest

This news did not “demonize” refugees in general, it alleged something about the past of a single refugee!

tappanch
Guest

Of course, Iran and any other country or terrorist organization, not only Qaida or Da’esh could have sent agents with no or fake past in this mess.

Webber
Guest

Of course, Cosa Nostra, the CIA, MI5 and MI6, Mossad, old securitate people, former KGB agents, Skull and Bones, N’drangheta, the Bilderberg Group, Freemasons, George Soros (personally), and the infamous former Sumerian secret services could be involved.
But I think it would be best to look first at the nefarious practices of the Mohicans (tappanch – wait! wait! There’s no need to push something unconfirmed.)

teklatekla
Guest

I couldn’t post this for two times, maybe now.

Look, what if the Russians (Syrians, Iranians) have some clout at this particular Kurdish site? Do you know how easy is to control/bribe journalists? What if this site is similar to the now few dozen Hungarian-language sites which the FSB, GRU etc. clearly operate (e.g. Hídfő.net)?

The Middle-East is a most complex region for Europeans who for example don’t speak any relevant local languages and have scant ideas about the local cultures. Even “the Kurds” have a very complex history and religious, social etc. background and I think anything that comes from there must be checked very carefully.

Even the New York Times can be criticized for following agendas, generously overlooking various uncomfortable issues, I’m certain that with such sites as this one there are many more issues. In any case, just because someone publishes something doesn’t make it true.

deakista
Guest

Tappanch,

Go on, and remain the great pragmatist.
You are very experienced in spotting the hidden dangers.
The rest of us can learn from you.

Thank you.

101
Guest

All humanity has been victim of misinformation.
Our worst cancer is the misinformation, intentional deceit.
Hungarians are even more vulnerable, since the nation is isolated in geography and linguistic.
The current top masters of misinformation: The Russian and Iranian regime.
The currant silent supporter: the Obama administration.

tappanch
Guest

Of course, Eva is right about the history of the slogan ““Christian-National” in Hungary. It was a code word for non-Jewish or anti-Semitic between the two world wars.

I think Orban wants to overload [redefine] the word for non-Muslim or anti-Muslim.

He hopes to defend Europe from the militant Islamic religion with the resurrection of the militant side of Christianity.

But Europe became a unique place of the Globe, not because of the crusades and inquisition, but because of the renaissance, human rights, “fraternité, égalité, liberté” etc. Europe and the European settlement of North America became the torches on the Earth, partly because of the DIMINISHED role of religion !

We should defend ourselves with a renewed, militant side of our SECULAR values.

As Justice Goldberg paraphrased it in 1963:
“while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact.”

Guest

@tappanch
September 22, 2015 at 6:28 pm

Re:

— “As Justice Goldberg paraphrased it in 1963:
“while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact.” ” —

It occurs to me that Justice Goldberg’s pronouncement may well be rephrased in relation to the current refugee and would-be immigrant crisis as follows:

“Human rights fundamentalists ought to bear in mind, however, that while the EU aims to protect against human rights violations, it is not a suicide pact.”

tappanch
Guest

This is what I had in mind.

Bandi
Guest

“renaissance, human rights, “fraternité, égalité, liberté” etc.” All of them originating in the ideas of Christianity.

Webber
Guest

And all of them can be learned today by anyone, regardless of religion.

Guest

@Bandi
September 23, 2015 at 7:39 am

Sorry to nitpick, but actually all of them originated in reaction to (medieval) Christianity (and Judaism).

de101
Guest

…..more precisely, from the Enlightenment, from the reason in humanity.

Guest
Re: “But Europe became a unique place of the Globe, not because of the crusades and inquisition, but because of the renaissance, human rights, “fraternité, égalité, liberté” etc. Europe and the European settlement of North America became the torches on the Earth, partly because of the DIMINISHED role of religion !” You know tappanch I’d agree with the basic thrust of your statement. But instead of the word ‘diminished’ I’d be more inclined to insert the word ‘pluralistic’. I’d suggest it was the fact of completely letting religions ‘operate’ in societies rather than restricting one or the other which in effect helped to develop them effectively on human rights etc. The American founders believed favoring one or the other on a state level posed some problems to those who were not of that religion. And that really is what is happening with VO’s apparent close marriage of the state with Christianity. His I’d suggest is a Christianity of say ‘opposition’ that is frankly malevolently unmoral. My Franciscan teachers would be stupefied to see where VO has positioned Christianity which apparently has completely lost its ‘social’ character in his repressive state. Religion unfortunately is part of the Magyar state’s ideological bent… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

“There are a number of commentators who claim that Viktor Orbán and his cohorts have no definable ideology. They have only one aim: to remain in power. They adjust their propaganda accordingly. They are simple populists. The recurring theme of the “Christian and National Idea,” however, indicates to me that they wittingly or unwittingly sympathize with the ideology of the Hungarian far right of the interwar period, an ideology that bore striking resemblances to fascism and national socialism.”

Unfortunately, there is another possibility (among many others):

They do adjust their propaganda to stay in power. And to stay in power now, they have to adopt the national socialist principles, because those are wanted by the majority of the voters.

Guest

I don’t think there would be any refugee issue in the world if the majority of refugees had the same miindset like Eva, and I think that any country should be happy accepting and integrating refugees like she was. Integrating in a sense that the refugee has a great desire to be part of the society, learn the language, start working as soon as possible and strive to achieve something valuable in life. However watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=nP0XTvuRycY and these statistics in Die Presse http://diepresse.com/home/politik/innenpolitik/4817541/Schwierige-Integration-von-Fluchtlingen-auf-dem-Jobmarkt on Syrian and Afghan refugees in Austria I am afraid that Eva would not be just a typical refugee among them. It would be interesting to know how many times Eva was marching in her new country chanting “USA go to Hell!, US police go to Hell!”

petofi
Guest
Multiculturalism One of the most difficult policies to instill in a society is Multiculturalism. Certainly, Canada has failed miserably: all who enter the country think that it means that they can tow their culture with them and ignore the Canadian culture of two founding nations. That is wrong. To make Multiculturalism workable, Canada had to drive home the idea that immigrants owe it to the country to learn its language, its practices; and to give primarly allegiance to their new home. This was never done with the result being that many peoples never bothered to learn either official language; and insisted on schooling their kids in their native language; and to prey at their native churches (sometimes demaning government support for all of the above.) Immigration must necessarily co-opt the American idea of the ‘melting pot’–that is, you become American first and foremost, while retaining your cultural heritage. There should be no question where your primary loyalties should be. When immigrants come to Canada and seek to set up a ‘little Italy’, or a ‘little India’ or a ‘little China’…it is wrong. Certain areas of Toronto now sport exclusively Chinese language signs. This is madness. But worse, it sows confusion.… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Funny – is the US so different? The first Little Italy was in the United States. China towns exist all over the US. There are still German speaking communities. There are at least two Russian speaking ones (Little Odessa, and part of Woodburn). Mexican Americans regularly support the Mexican soccer team. In places, there are radio and television stations in Farsi, in Spanish, in Russian, in Romanian, in you name it. And yet, somehow, integration more or less works in the US – without the ideology of multiculturalism, and without opposition to multiculturalism.
The ideology in the US seems to be simply live and let live. If people don’t want to integrate, that’s their business and their problem – they will never succeed. If they want to, welcome!

Guest

Re: ‘…integration more or less works in the US’..

Agree! You want make a change? Come on in! Jumping in though will be like diving into a cold pool. Eventually the ‘shock’ of the place will ameliorate itself and one will get the ‘temp’ of the place regulated a bit. It is then when ‘freedom’ operates as the ascension of responsibility kicks in. Not all can succeed in the challenges. But it’s there to plunge into and indulge in ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’. At least all can get the chance.

Challenge for Hungary: how’s that soil for ‘growing’ things?

Guest
@Webber September 23, 2015 at 2:20 am Spot on, Webber. The problem is government sponsorship and funding of multiculturalism in countries like the UK, Canada or Australia. That came about with the influx of large masses of immigrants from backward, underdeveloped regions of the world from the fifties onwards, and accelerating in the sixties and seventies, in order to fill severe unskilled labour shortages in these countries. It was thought, with the best of intentions, that if these immigrants were encouraged and financially supported to maintain their native cultures and languages in their new countries, their self-esteem would remain intact in the competitive environment in which they found themselves, and that would then greatly facilitate their speedy integration into mainstream society. Well, unfortunately it did not quite turn out that way. Germans, Dutch, Chinese, or for that matter Hungarians, did not need in the least any official government crutches to make their way successfully in their new country. On the other hand, Lebanese Shia peasants, Calabrian peasants, or peasants from Greece, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangaladesh, Sudan, Somalia and so on, had it pretty tough in the new country, though official multiculturalism helped their integration into the mainstream about as much… Read more »
Reality Check
Guest

“The American melting pot approach is undoubtedly the best. It is common sense, it works and does not even require any government subsidies.”

You are very misinformed. Refugee resettlement programs in the US include a government subsidy. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/orr/resource/the-us-refugee-resettlement-program-an-overview

How do you think you get a start if you show up penniless and not knowing the language?

Guest
@Reality Check September 23, 2015 at 11:17 am I am afraid it is you, who misunderstood or misconstrued what I was talking about. I was talking about the open-ended funding of institutionalised multiculturalism, not about the one-off funding of resettlement programs, which I too consider essential, but which isn’t multiculturalism in the conventional sense of the term. For instance, here is Australia certain migrant groups receive annual government funding for their social activities, their body of “activists” and the maintenance of their particular culture and language. Or that the taxpayers are funding supposedly multi-language “multicultural” television channels and radio stations, which run at extremely low ratings, with the former (ironically!) telecasting mainly English language programs that got very little or nothing to do with multiculturalism, all in the name of multiculturalism (Anglo intellectuals, mainly on the left, however, find it fascinating to watch some foreign and art movies and general interest programs that failed to make it to the main government television outlets). None of this is grandfathered or intended ever to be phased out, even though none of it helps one iota in integrating the target immigrant groups into the mainstream. In any case, this day and age, if… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Government-funded multiculturalism has in certain places been (intentionally or not) a way to put migrants of certain types together in certain areas, under the name of “we respect your culture, and want you to keep it.” Ghettoization, of a sort.
The immigrant in this situation has little chance of meeting others in the majority society, and therefore no chance of integrating.
In non-multicultural settings, or where the ideology did not take root, refugees are housed at random, meaning that they often end up immersed in a majority neighborhood.
Migrants (not refugees) to such countries are simply left to go where they wish, generally getting no state support (they came voluntarily, after all). If they want to form a community separate from the majority (Little Hungary, Chinatown), they may, but that is an individual decision, it is not imposed on them by the state.
This arises, perhaps, from America’s experience of bad, old, segregationist times, when minorities were forced to live in certain areas. Multiculturalism imposed by the state has a whiff of that, to me.

Reality Check
Guest

No, even with clarification you are wrong.

http://www.linguisticsociety.org/sites/default/files/native-american-language-revitalization-executive-order-draft.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2991b-3

There are lots of example of US and state government funding and administrative support for cultural programs that are specific to certain ethnic groups. That links are just a few examples.

And here is another: http://www.neh.gov/grants

http://nifa.usda.gov/funding-opportunity/higher-education-multicultural-scholars-program-msp

and lots more if you keep looking.

Webber
Guest
Thank you for those examples of govt. funding in the U.S. Let’s just say I am not a fan of government funding under the title of multiculturalism. If you are at all interested, the following is a fair summary of the arguments of one critic of multiculturalism, along with a strong criticism of that critic’s stance. https://www.opendemocracy.net/ger-mennens/multiculturalism-and-its-critics This also is a robust defense of multiculturalism here: http://www.veryshortintroductions.com/view/10.1093/actrade/9780199546039.001.0001/actrade-9780199546039-chapter-4 I happen to agree with the critics. You might agree with the supporters of multicultural ideas (such as the above, and the Canadian Will Kymlicka). In my view, a lot of the “successes of multiculturalism” pointed to by the supporters ARE (of course) successes, but they often pre-date the very idea of multiculturalism and/or they have nothing to do with it (see my example of shops/restaurants below for an example) If you are open to the critique, this is also interesting: http://ecs.sagepub.com/content/15/2/167.short I’m one of those simple “what’s good for the majority is good for the minority” sorts – Can the majority speak its language wherever it wants? Then the minority should be able to as well: etc., etc., ad nauseum, with certain caveats. I’m not fond of state support. In much of… Read more »
exTor
Guest
There is something very wrong with your immigrant perspective, petofi. I’ve talked about this before and yet you still dont get it. Whether one calls it Multiculturalism or Melting Pot, the bottomline is that it looks the same, as Webber pointed out. Regardless of national origins, immigrants absorb the ethos of their new lands. That’s just the way it is. So what if the Greeks on the Danforth had their blue-and-white flags out in celebration. In 2004, my then girlfriend and I hosted a Brazilian student. On the day of the Eurocup final [Portugal versus Greece] I wanted to go to a restaurant in the minute Little Brazil, which is adjacent to (the College Street) Little Italy. Instead, I decided to go to Greektown, which is huge and only half the distance. Greece, against all odds, beat favored Portugal [1–0]. You should have seen the Danforth then. Many tens of thousands were out on the street, which was full of Greek flags. Reminded me of St. Clair West when the Italians won the 1982 World Cup, which was repeated in 2006. If Hungary ever produces another Puskás team that wins either the World Cup or the Eurocup (or both), I’m… Read more »
petofi
Guest

@exTor

You’ve totally misunderstood me…perhaps on purpose…to be able to pontificate.

You may be a proud Greek, or Hungarian, or Russian…or whatever. But what you can’t do is to cheer your homeland, in your adopted country…AGAINST your adopted country.

See the difference?

Reality Check
Guest

“AGAINST your adopted country” – For a sporting event!?! Give me a break. You sound like one of the Ultra’s.

Guest
Just a bit OT having seen this. Sport at times can break the delirium of politics…;-)… Re: “If Hungary ever produces another Puskás team that wins either the World Cup or the Eurocup (or both), I’m sure that you will be out in the streets with the other Magyars waving your Hungarian tricolor with pride” I would think so as well. As natural as the rising of the sun. But you know personally as a futbol aficionado I have dreams one day of beating Magyarorszag 2-1 on penalty kicks in a future World Cup final. For the US to play and win over Magyarorszag would be an exceptional feat not really because they ‘won’ games but rather because they did the things to produce the wins to get to the Cup and to the final. And that as we know is the sticking point especially if futbol isn’t the ‘national’ game. Amazing how the former ‘immigrant’ game has become so popular around here from decades before. Would be nice if we can develop our own ‘Puskases’ as well. And you know if we get hit by lightning and do win I’d call that German up Mr. Klinsmann to congratulate him.… Read more »
Guest

Re: ‘When immigrants come to Canada and seek to set up a ‘little Italy’, or a ‘little India’ or a ‘little China’…it is wrong. Certain areas of Toronto now sport exclusively Chinese language signs. This is madness. But worse, it sows confusion’

Hmm…would you say that with ‘little Magyarorszag’s too?…;-).. I’d hope you’d get nostalgic with me as my ‘little Magyarorszag’ is virtually gone from old haunts in NYC. Oh we were all proud on feast days showing the U.S. and Magyar flags side by side. And the Magyar stores came with their windows showing the ‘colors’. They even had signs in Magyar! Helped me out to pick up the language. Just my personal take in a corner of the world far from my parents’ ‘hometown’.

Reality Check
Guest

@Petofi, I think it is wonderful. The Chinatowns and Little Italy’s of the world make the world a more interesting place. Integration does not mean forced assimilation. It means economic integration and peaceful coexistence with the wider local culture.

I grew up in the Hungarian-American community of New Jersey in the 60’s and 70’s. I am the son of a Hungarian refugee, and I attended Hungarian school on the weekends, Hungarian church on Sundays where we sang the Hungarian National Anthem, celebrated Christmas on xmas eve, spoke both Hungarian and English at home, learned to recite the poems of Petofi, memorized in the names of bridges in Budapest, etc. I lived in an integrated community where the immigrant Hungarians had learned English and had successful careers in science, business, etc. However, a unique Hungarian subculture still existed in NJ. The elders of the community were well integrated into the US, but they were not assimilated. That community was a small piece of the multicultural mix of the US.

Without multiculturalism the US would be a boring place to live.

Reality Check
Guest
Webber
Guest

And there is this – the “most Hungarian town in the US,” which is actually a religious ghetto of sorts (a very nice one! story below).
Are Americans upset? Are they marching to end this travesty?
Nobody cares one way or another. At most, it’s a bit of interesting folklore for tourists from more standard American towns (note the sign outside the town is in Spanish and English)
Live and let live, folks.
http://www.szombat.org/politika/a-legmagyarabb-varos-amerikaban

Guest

Re: ‘Hungarian Heritage Maintenance in the USA’

Thank you for that extended piece. I am familiar with the area alongside my own in NYC. Both existed side by side and of course were great focal points and drivers of Magyar culture. It was very enlightening as well. Just one thing. If it occurs I wouldn’t understand why a family here would want to ‘only’ speak Magyar rather than English. I’d think it’s just as easy to get the best of both ‘worlds’ rather than shunning one completely.

For myself, I got a great language mix composed of Magyarized ‘broken English’ but also a treasure with a glorious ‘nyelv’. It makes me feel very good that as the son of immigrants that I know one of the most fascinating and beautiful languages of the world. And it always helps me to get a feeling for that Magyar ‘soul’ within all of us who have that particular background regardless of where our geography takes us.

exTor
Guest

I dont have to view your links to see your mindset, G Nagy. You want to point to exceptions to prove your rule.

The world is different now –more eudysic– than it was in 1957 when Éva landed in Canada. In the main, those refugees who do manage to get to Europe will be just as pleased. Most will also fit well in their unique ways.

Stop looking for trouble to satisfy your misconceptions.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

@exTor
September 23, 2015 at 4:20 am

I just love your politically correct, resolute human rights fundamentalism, exTor, though a bit of plain common sense would not go astray either.

:-))

Reality Check
Guest

Making the gross generalizations you make based on the actions of a few is bigoted thinking not common sense thinking.

Member

That video has been debunked, it never happened in Luton, was just edited and made into a new video, this video is from 2006 and from London, it was a march of around 500, and it was because of the cartoon of Mohamed that caused conflict. Just started circulating again by white supremacy sites and right wing news sites on the internet. Recirculated crap made to look as though it happend yesterday and is happening everyday to spark fear and hatred.

Guest

I just hope that you are right because it is horrifying to imagine the same type of crowd marching on the streets of Debrecen, Miskolc or Pecs, and I hope that you might understand those simple Hungarians who feel truly terrified by this kind of future irrespective whether they like the current mafia state or not.

Reality Check
Guest

I am not terrified by something that has not happened. The images of Hungarian extremists marching through Roma villages and the Ultra’s rampaging the streets of Budapest; that terrifies me. Those images require no over-imagining of something that might be.

István
Guest
We have to acknowledge, like it or not, that the first chapter of the Hungarian Basic Law ( Alaptörvény) (or the Constitution) is called the National Avowal (nemzeti hitvallás). A critical aspect of the National Creed or Avowal is that Christianity is enshrined in it, in fact I would call it Christian Nationalism. We can argue that the current Constitution was rammed down the throats of Hungarians fast by Fidesz, but we can also recognize the fact that in the political discourse in Hungary the nature of the National Avowal and secularizing the Basic Law has never an idea that has gained traction. Let me just cite two passages of the Avowal: “We are proud that our King Stephen built the Hungarian State on solid ground and made our country part of Christian Europe a thousand years ago.” And this: “we recognize the role of Christianity I preserving the nation. We honor the various religious traditions of out country.” Orban is simply reinforcing the core ideology of Fidesz and of the Constitution of Hungary. Eva’s point that: “After all, Christianity is considered to be a universal, supranational concept while “national” is a notion applicable to the particular. This is especially… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

Why would the pope change this? He may be a socialist, but the dogma is still more important to him, I guess.

The bottom line is, that as opposed to the US constitution, in Hungary the principle of separation between church and state does not exist in the basic law.

Webber
Guest

Gdfxx – The Pope is not a socialist, as he personally explains. I suggest you read what he is talking about if you are not convinced:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/22/pope-francis-us-trip-leftie-video

You are right, however, that he is most unlikely to say anything at all about the constitution of any state in the world. Render unto Caesar…

Atossa
Guest

.

Christ is the holy incarnation of the God of Israel.

No one who has read the Bible… OT and NT… can honestly say God is a universalist..

The universalist concept arose from non-Christian deist and freemasonic philosophy.

.

Webber
Guest

The worship of one’s own nation before God or humanity is an ancient heresy that has been repeatedly denounced by church leaders over the millennia – I will quote two Popes below your final comment.

What you said applies solely to the Old Testament.
Please open your Bible to the New Testament (get a new Bible if it’s missing from yours). Read Christ’s teachings about the Good Samaritan. Read Christ’s words about who may go to heaven. And keep reading.
Virtually all Christian leaders have seen Christ’s teachings as universalist – from St Augustine through the Popes of our age, and including all Protestant sects.

deakista
Guest

Atossa,

I think you are right.

The real Enlightenment must liberate the believers from their dogmas:

Mindenható. Y-H-V-H (expecially on this yom kippur) Χριστός, Allah, Budha, etc…

Good luck to all of us.

Atossa
Guest

.

” When love of kith and kin is interwoven with love of God, a man defends his nation, because everything he holds dear is contained in his nation. If the love of kith and kin, the love which was sanctioned by our incarnate Lord, is demonized, and the love of a universalist, abstract people and an abstract god is seen as the highest and purest religion, then utter destruction will fall upon those who believe in such a demonic faith. ”

https://cambriawillnotyield.wordpress.com/2015/09/

.

Atossa
Guest

.

Black swan just hit Germany…
this could get very interesting.

.

Webber
Guest

Atossa –
“We are faced with a new paganism – the idolization of the nation.” Pope John Paul II, 15 Jan. 1994.

“Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of human community – however necessary and honorable their function in worldly things – whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds…
None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are ‘as a drop of a bucket’ (Isaiah XI, 15).” Pope Pius XI, 14 Mar. 1937.

dos929
Guest
An excellent article and fairy true description in this brief narrative of the Orban regime’s ideology. It should be noted as well, that the active attendance in the so-called Christian institutions is minimal, say the least. There is no actual statistics to reflect how many of those true Christian believers attending church services, but it is well below the 10% or less, even on the Sunday services. The ‘Christian Hungary’ portrayal is no more than an indication of the general historical background of the majority of the Hungarian people, and no more than that. Hungary is no less secular than Australia, France or any other modern nation in the 21st century. The Orban regime is using this term simply because it sounds good for the mostly uneducated and simple masses that prescribe to the teachings of the ‘great leader’. It should be noted as well that as a ‘good Christian’, Orban relentlessly persecuted the perhaps only true Christian church, Gábor Iványi’s congregation, the very person who christened one of Orban’s children a long time ago, when Orban himself thought to be a democrat… The example that Gábor Iványi demonstrates day after day and year after year is what true Christian… Read more »
bimbi
Guest

So much blather in the comments today about popes and multiculturalism and tripped-up brigands and, and… What is this, a chat-club for the initiated?

However, in today’s post Prof. Balogh so well summarized the current position of the Hungarian government charging forward under its “Christian-National” banner that there is little left to do but agree with her and suppress the churning in the stomach that this policy engenders – at least in me. We now have a Fidesz-KDNP-Jobbik government for all intents and purposes that last group having been slid into the coalition by Orban’s further move to the right.

Meanwhile Orban-sponsored theft from the Hungarian people continues – the stadia, the lighting contracts, the ‘donations’ of land to part faithful and the neglect of the health services. Control, control, control.

All this while the economy is maintained in a state of low-paying jobs for Orban’s beloved colonization – by the German auto industry.

It ain’t pretty but it works.

Webber
Guest

On topic, though it needs parsing to see how (sorry for repetition):

“Hungary,” dep. state sec. Gergely Pröhle emphasized “had no colonial past, little experience with immigrants, and a large Jewish community who would be the first to fear a large Muslim influx.”

There’s a robust Hungarian peasant saying for what Pröhle was doing there:

Veri a csalánt más faszával.

(it’s a bit obscene, so I won’t translate it)

Come to think if it, in a different way the same could be said for those sitting in different continents and countries (Australia, Israel, … – anywhere but Europe) giving us “warnings” here about Muslim extremism -, as if there weren’t enough Europeans doing the same.

In Europe they are often the same people who spew about Jewish conspiracies.
And for that, there’s a nice English saying:
A gentleman is known by the company he keeps.

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

One wonders what Jesus Christ would make of a “Christian” leader that rejoices in the pepper-spraying of women and children, that imprisions homeless for the crime of being homeless and that uses racist hate as a policy tool?
Looks like that I should update my New Testament.
I

Guest

Back to Orbán:
The Bavarian CSU is hosting Orbán today – we’ll surely read some gems about their Christian National Family Values from him and his fellow Christian, Bavarian prime minister Seehofer (you know the one who impregnated his secretary and then sent her away with her/his child and returned to his wife …)
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/viktor-orban-cdu-und-csu-politiker-verteidigen-ungarns-zaun-a-1054200.html
And the conservatives are of course “Feuer and Flamme” (i e raving) about those nice fences even though we all know they are totally useless …

PS and OT (I might have written about that already):
I found out about the ideology of those Christians at the ripe age of six when I was waiting to go to school with my Kindergarten friends – only to be told that they would go to the Catholic school and I to the Protestant. Now the crazy thing about this was that both schools were in the same building, the old town schoolhouse – they had just put a wall in the middle of it …

Member
The present government is using ALL the weaknesses of the transformation of this society, in full throttle. One “small” part of this playground is the HUGE loopholes in education of Hungarian history. Unfortunately, it is not limited to the past only, but applies to the near past and the future as well. Look at the whole process of joining the EU! The Hungarian (Romanian, etc.) public understands very little about the stakes and requirements, moreover people were kept in dark by intention! By intention of all political parties, no exception here. We have full house of consequences today. Adding to this equitation Hungary had a very confusing political landscape during the past three decades. As it turned out the “Socialists” in reality advocated free-market capitalism, opposed the name (who cares little about the average guy on the street). The so-called Liberals were more socialist in nature than any other party was. I don’t want to waste your time describing other parties that were consumed by OVI in the meantime. (I am using Hungarian terminology here, not North American.) Even simplified, fidASS is a more complicated case with the many of its U-turns. We all now what the churches had endured… Read more »
Feherw
Guest

Interestingly one post did not go through three times and it contained references to certain agencies.

Let’s see if this one gets posted.

Feherw
Guest

@tappanch

4th try.

What if the Russians (Syrians, Iranians) have some clout at this particular Kurdish site? Do you know how easy is to control/bribe journalists? What if this site is similar to the now few dozen Hungarian-language sites which certain Russian agencies clearly operate?

The Middle-East is a most complex region for Europeans who for example don’t speak any relevant local languages and have scant ideas about the local culture. Even “the Kurds” have a very complex history and religious, social etc. background and I think anything that comes from there must be checked very carefully.

Even the New York Times can be criticized for following agendas, generously overlooking various uncomfortable issues, I’m certain that with such sites as this one there are many more issues. In any case, just because someone publishes something doesn’t make it true.

Tyrker
Guest

As I wrote in a comment to another post here on HS, it wasn’t the Kurdish website that broke the news about the coach’s gruesome past, but a Facebook group named This is Christian Syria, back on 12th September. Today, a Hungarian writer, journalist and Middle East expert called Sándor Jászberényi, who is currently on-site in Syrian Kurdistan, said that multiple independent sources have confirmed the story – the man is an al-Nusra supporter and former Asad loyalist who had previously taken part in a genocide. Jászberényi did warn everyone, though, that all his sources are verbal for the time being – he is currently trying to get his hands on some tangible evidence.

Webber
Guest

Again, wait –
I heard a story about the father of the little boy who drowned, so I can tell the story about that too. Does it make it true? It certainly does not.
The same stories are going around the world.

Webber
Guest

Why doesn’t this journalist, this “Middle East expert” just call the guy and ask him? Shouldn’t be that hard to track the guy down.
A proper journalist would do that. (yes, the guy might lie – but he should be asked).

tappanch
Guest

I read Jászberényi’s fresh reportage about YPG today. It is pretty interesting. They seem to follow a mildly Communistic philosophy, which includes the emancipation of women. Forty per cent of their fighters are women. Da’esh fighters are afraid of them, because if an Islamist is killed by a woman, he cannot get into the paradise easily.

http://24.hu/kulfold/2015/09/23/nok-akiktol-halalosan-felnek-az-iszlam-allam-terroristai/

previous reports from the front line:
http://24.hu/kulfold/2015/09/20/kobani-a-romvaros-ahova-visszaternek-a-sziriai-menekultek/

http://24.hu/kulfold/2015/09/18/alig-akad-sziriaban-aki-ne-tudna-mi-tortenik-a-magyar-hataron/

Guest

A bit strange – the Hungarian ambassador to the US on twitter:
https://twitter.com/AmbSzemerkenyi

Not too much OT:
What I found interesting following the links there:
“51% of Silicon Valley’s population speaks a language other than English exclusively at home.”
Now that’s interesting, isn’t it?
Though a large part of that group are probably the Spanish speaking workers in the surrounding agriculture.

Guest
Re: “Respect for each other as democracies is an important message for Hungary and many other nations with evolving democratic institutions. “Quite often what happens when they follow the American example, you get governments that don’t work because they’re not Americans,” asserted Rohrabacher. This statement is especially insightful. The Hungarian democracy is hitting its stride precisely because it is not an exact replica of American democracy — but what is right for the Hungarian people. The committee’s appreciation for this will resonate in Hungary and with the 1.5 million Hungarian-Americans here in America to usher in a new era of relations” A citation from the ambassador. Whoa I’m not too sure Hungarian-Americans or any Americans would go for the current evolution of Hungarian democracy coming after the ambassador’s remarks and knowing what’s going on there. I’m not too sure why ‘Hungarian’ democracy should be different than ‘American’ democracy if the democratic construction should be based on rule of law, cultural diversity, respect for minorities, an aversion to xenophobia, government transparency and checks and balances and an independent media. Amazing how the definition of democracy has now changed based on a focus of a culture and people. It would appear Magyarorszag… Read more »
Guest

@ exTor ” those refugees who do manage to get to Europe will be just as pleased. Most will also fit well in their unique ways.”

Many of the refugees don’t seem too pleased, and the word “unique” can easily be replaced to “violent” in many cases: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzdogL2v2mg . Maybe you are right it is an exception but I never want to protest against muslim extremism in Hungary. We have enough problem here starting with our own pocket dictator.

Webber
Guest

G Nagy – you’re joking, right? You do realize what that video is? Two well-known Britain First people went into Luton looking for Muslims, told them “this is our country, go back to your country,” and surprise, surprise – look what happened.

Look up Britain First:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_First

If two Romania Mare people went into a Szekler village in Covasna county Romania, and shouted “Go to Hungary, Bozgar!” what do you think might happen? I have a good idea. A beer can would be the lightest of the things thrown at them. There wouldn’t be much left of the car.

If two known Ku Klux Klan people drove slowly by blacks anywhere in the US with KKK regalia, and then suggested “This is America – Go back to Africa” what do you think would happen?

Say two Jobbik people, known for personally slagging Roma, going into a Gypsy neighborhood and shouting out the window of their car “Get out of Hungary!” Guess what would happen?

Get your head out of it, man.

Guest

Don’t be too harsh on him – at least G Nagy acknowledged Orbán as a “pocket dictator” – that might be the first step in the right direction …
Or does it show that Orbán is not “right enough” for him – maybe he would be happier with Jobbik in government?

Guest

@ wolfi We may totally agree on Orban’s and Jobik in Hungary, but it doesn’t automatically mean that we agree on everything from there on. As surprising for you as it may sound.

Guest

@ webber Thank you for drawing my attention to the Britain First Movement. It is true I am not familiar with it. The only thing I saw that British people drive a car in Britain in a British city when they faced violence and abuse from local muslims without actually doing anything just driving their car in a muslim populated area. I never heard them saying anything first. If there is any violence here it is not from the British side first.

I don’t think they could have the same reaction driving their car in a china town, or in a part of a city infested by Hungarians who moved into UK. (500 000 of them they say.) There should be a reason.

(And why your examples are irrelevant: Hungarian people in Transylvania actually never moved to Romania exactly the opposite. The majority of ancestors’ of the black guys in the US never wanted to move to US exactly the opposite. Gipsy population in Hungary are not asylum seekers but the exact same Hungarians like me.)

Member

What you refuse to acknowledge is the video is clipped, it only shows what they want to show. Britain first is a white supremacy group that hides behind a bunch of lies. They are the ones spreading these altered videos, claiming they just happened when they have been floating them around the internet for years misleading and decieving people like you. Don’t be so extremely gullible to fall for this trap. In many cases, the people spreading these videos don’t care what the truth is, they have an agenda. You and millions of others are fulfilling it for them. Same with the bs about the Syrian that was tripped by the camerawoman, the truth has been reported about him, but you don’t want to know the truth, you want to continue to spread the garbage. This is an interview with him. He is one of the many who are documented extensively.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/world/europe/syrian-refugee-tripped-in-hungary-denies-extremist-ties.html?_r=0

Guest

Again not too much OT – the coalition partner of the CDU, the SPD is not too pleased with the CSUs welcome to Orbán.
Their general secretary Yasmin Fahimi (father was Iranian!) said some scathing words:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/treffen-mit-viktor-orban-spd-wirft-csu-verrat-an-angela-merkel-vor-a-1054301.html
Btw Fahimi’s partner is Michael Vassiliadis, who is boss of a German union – his parents came as “guest workers” …
See the difference between the CSU and the SPD?

Tyrker
Guest

One of the differences between today’s migrants and the refugees of 1956 is that today’s migrants tend to have a lot of demands, most of which cannot be fulfilled. See this interview that aired on Swedish Television the other day – unbelievable!

[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vacdGPAZLyM?rel=0&w=560&h=315%5D

Member

Tyrker: I bet you lots of demands compared to the lifestyle of 1956. Internet, cell phone, cable TV, fresh fruit all year around, cars for each household, color TV, travelling by jet planes, voting rights for Afro Americans.. My goodness if you checked them all you must be a multimillionaire with unprecedented appetite for luxury we cannot even imagine…

Webber
Guest

Another example of the result of Muslim immigration:

And yet another:

Member

Orbanian demagoguery has no shame and knows no limits

Gergely Prohle, a former Hungarian ambassador to Berlin, now deputy state secretary in the Fidesz government, told the BBC… Hungary, he emphasised, had no colonial past, little experience with immigrants, and a large Jewish community who would be the first to fear a large Muslim influx…

Member

If anyone who reads this board could pass on message top Prohle:
My parents and my cousin do not fear the Muslim influx!!! They not worried about this influx a ‘bit. Maybe Prohle should ask first before speaks for all. On the other hand my Jewish family very much fear of Orban and the influx of his friends, like Bayer!!

Guest

Currently watching the Pope’s address at the White House. Very impressed in the themes coursing through of his speech. His speech is in my opinion on another completely different road that the one VO has elected to trek upon. His themes of religious liberty and our ‘common home’ does not reflect in any of the pronouncements of that great Hungarian leader.

And it was good to hear from him that freedom was ‘America’s precious possession’. Indeed the Pope knows that freedom is a ‘must have quality’ in the dissemination of human rights. I would hope Orban ‘tuned in’ so as maybe just maybe he can get on the same signal. And the Magyar Church as well when it comes to applying social justice within its society. Perhaps the Pope’s moral authority might get through.

tappanch
Guest

Is the mystery of Balog’s missing Coptic Christians solved?

Between 2010 and 2015, the Hungarian authorities handed out 515 “national settlement permissions” to Egyptian citizens. The recipients did not come to live in Hungary, but probably settled in Western Europe using their Hungarian permit.

http://mandiner.hu/cikk/20150922_tenyleg_befogadtunk_kozel_keleti_keresztenyeket_es_sokan_masokat_is

Webber
Guest

Ha! I KNEW it!
Orban is going to use the sale of Hungarian citizenship to fill the quota, just watch!! (Russians lining up now) And he won’t mind one bit if every new citizen runs off to some other EU country to the West.

Masha
Guest
Balogh talked about 1.000 families in 2013-2014. That’s at least 3-4.000 people. Counting with 1 or two kids per family, although the fertility rate in the last two decades can conservatively be estimated at 4, it’s currently about 3, but the age breakdown of 1000 families surely include women over 30 as well. So the maths don’t add up. Also it’s extremely unlikely that nobody at all (ie. zero out of 3-4k people) talked to the Copt Christians in Hungary if their Copt identity was the reason for their getting the residence permit or whatever it was. They would’ve stayed at least for a week or so in Hungary (probably way more) these thousands of people (so a few hundred at any one time during those years) so a number would’ve turned up at the Budapest community and at least the news that there’s a concentrated Hungarian program to ‘save the Copts’ would have surely leaked to the church leaders. Especially in such close knit emigrant communities news spreads very quickly. I think this mandiner news is a lie, a disinformation. Note that Heti Válasz, now says that – even though the Petra Laszlo apologized in the end acknowledging the… Read more »
spectator
Guest

Wasn’t it initially something like “one thousand Christian families” – or I misread something somewhere?

Istvan
Guest

I read in the Guardian today that “Viktor Orban of Hungary, warned Chancellor Angela Merkel against any “moral imperialism” at today’s summit.” Is that an extract from a larger statement or was that the totality of his comment? The Prime Minister’s website has extracts from PM Orban’s statements today http://www.kormany.hu/en/the-prime-minister/news/protecting-the-greek-borders-is-top-of-the-agenda But the moral imperialism comment was not among those comments to the media listed.

A new concept to me, moral imperialism.

spectator
Guest

Aren’t most of Orbáns definitions?
That dear fellow seemingly making a virtue out of making up definitions according his liking.
Whatever the original ever meant, from now on it called so and so in the Orbanian language.

As I recommended a few times earlier, it’s about time someone coming out with a few Orbanian dictionaries. Like Orbanian-Hungarian, Orbanian English – English, and so on.

These are the most sought after at present…

spectator
Guest

Just consider this:
In order to make you accept eternal power over of your everyday life you better start your existence as someone who used to subjugation to the almighty powers, otherwise you may present trouble in the nice and smooth life of a slave, by thinking with your own head or revolting some other unaccepted way.

If someone is already accepting the idea of someone/something deciding over their very fate, or it already happened, (written!) so the person has no influence over, whatsoever, is more likely to go along and accept the authoritarian regime than the independent minded rational person with integrity.

That’s how I see it – and I don’t see much to contradict with my theory.

On this presumption it seems fairly logical, that if Orbán wanted his scheme to work, he would push the religious line first as far as it goes, and build on the mechanism already in place.

And he’s definitely not the person to shy away from any religious pretext just for get his loyal flock of sheep following him as the new Messiah, be assured.

Guest
Re: “And he’s definitely not the person to shy away from any religious pretext just for get his loyal flock of sheep following him as the new Messiah, be assured” You knowing thinking about his apparent role today it would seem well to me that he’s kind of like Constantine who made Christianity the great religion of the Empire and backs it to the hilt since it is his ‘baby’. As a ‘Christus’ the old boy just doesn’t have the great charisma and revolutionary spirit and belief. I think on the other hand he’d like to believe he’s a modern age ‘Defender of the Faith’. Thing is though he might have to scower for adherents since the Christian faith there in Europe isn’t growing as fast as some other religions or other beliefs. Funny thing is though when Christianity started to get on its feet in the early days of the catacombs it had success in converting many Hellenized Jews to the faith. VO in some dream may just have to back and take up that burden from those early and growing days of Christianity. We’ll see him perhaps in a new evangelical role: ‘Preacher’ Vik! ! If not to… Read more »
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