Duplicity is widespread in the Hungarian government

I think we can safely say that Viktor Orbán’s trip to Vienna was a failure. The Hungarian prime minister arrived in Vienna with the following proposition: either Austria supports Hungary’s decision to erect a fence or it should allow a free “refugee corridor” from Croatia to Austria. The Austrians didn’t fall for such a bargain and Austrian-Hungarian relations are not one whit better than they were before Orbán’s quick trip to the Austrian capital. Given the failure of his initiative, he will now turn to the members of the Visegrád4 for more ammunition. So, let’s wait until we learn the outcome of talks with his colleagues in the Czech Republic, Poland, and Slovakia.

Today I would like to turn to a less weighty issue: the notorious mendacity of Fidesz politicians. Admittedly, politicians all over the world try to deflect politically sensitive questions. But in democratic countries they rarely resort to blatant falsification. Unfortunately, Fidesz politicians frequently do just that. Lately, the number of suspicious stories is multiplying in response to criticism of the Hungarian government’s handling of the refugee crisis. Many of the stories told by government officials and politicians about conditions along the Serb-Hungarian border turned out to be hearsay or, worse, outright concoctions.

Perhaps the most incomprehensible of these recent fabrications came from Zoltán Balog, minister of human resources who in civilian life is a Protestant minister. One would expect him to be truthful. However, the good pastor, while attending an international conference on the persecuted minorities in the Middle East, gave false figures about the number of people from the region to whom the Hungarian government granted citizenship.

According to MTI’s report on the minister’s speech, during 2014 and 2015 1,000 Christian families from Egypt and Iraq, after careful vetting, received Hungarian citizenship. Why haven’t we heard about these families? Because, we were told, the government’s actions were done in secret to safeguard these people’s privacy and to maintain their anonymity.

A few days later Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó elaborated on the same theme. This time he was even more specific. Most of these Christian refugees were Copts, members of a Christian community living in Egypt, Libya, and the Sudan. There is a small Coptic community in Hungary. They have a church with a membership of 100-110 families. This small community hasn’t noticed a sudden upsurge in the number of Copts living in Budapest. According to the leader of the group, the few newcomers “are businessmen who have permission to live in Hungary but who don’t live in the country on a permanent basis. They come and go in Europe and the world.”

When journalists wanted more information from Balog’s ministry, they were told that everything connected to this case is top secret for the protection of the individuals involved. That excuse was feeble. After all, the reporters from 444 weren’t interested in the names or addresses of these people. They simply wanted to know whether the figures Balog provided were accurate.

Zoltán Balog in his other role

Zoltán Balog in his other role

In addition to the reasons for the mysterious secrecy, other questions come to mind. There are strict rules and regulations concerning the granting of citizenship. The applicant must have lived in Hungary for at least eight years, must take a language examination, and has to show some knowledge of the country’s history and current political system. There is, however, one important exception to these rules: if the country has an “important national interest” in granting speedy citizenship to individuals. One of the most common such exceptions occurs in the case of athletes competing in the Olympics or at some other international sports event. Lately, foreign nationals who purchase 300,000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds also fall into that expedited category.

A week ago Zoltán Balog gave an interview to Antónia Mészáros of ATV, who barraged him with all sorts of questions that Balog couldn’t answer satisfactorily. There were gaping holes between his earlier story and the one he told in his interview. We could now learn that these new Christian citizens came not only from Egypt and Iraq but from all over the Middle East, including Pakistan.

A few days ago mandiner.hu, a right-of-center internet site, published a story in which András Stumpf claimed, based on documentary evidence, that in the last five years 573 non-Hungarians have received Hungarian citizenship, among them 216 Coptic Christians. Where are they? Why can’t we find them? Stumpf’s answer is that they have since left Hungary and moved on to other more prosperous countries. Just like all those refugees who went through the registration process in recent months and by now are somewhere in Germany or Sweden. Stumpf further claimed that Balog was not precise because he included 1,133 people who had received permission to stay in Hungary temporarily and 841 who had received permission to live in Hungary. All in all, however, Stumpf said, the figures Balog cited were more or less correct.

But the story doesn’t end here because Tímea Szabó, co-chair of Párbeszéd Magyarországért (PM), as a member of parliament requested the exact figures from Deputy Prime Minister Zsolt Semjén, who by law had to answer her. Semjén is in charge of matters related to citizenship. The figures he provided were the number of people who had been granted expedited citizenship between January 1, 2008 and June 2015. During this period 263 people received such Hungarian citizenship, a number that includes athletes. Of these, 198 were Egyptian.

Of course, the bitter truth that Balog inflated the citizenship numbers had to be covered up somehow. And thus Semjén’s data included all sorts of other categories beyond the actual number of new citizens. He must have realized that the careful reader would discover the discrepancies, so he ended his letter by saying: “On the basis of all these data we can state that Mr. Zoltán Balog’s statement was correct because those people who have received permission to settle in the country ‘are on the road toward’ the acquisition of citizenship.”

One misrepresentation leads to another and, in Balog’s case, to embarrassment. At least I sensed a certain amount of discomfiture during his interview. Others have no compunctions whatsoever. By now perhaps even the majority of Hungarian society is at a point that they don’t believe a word they hear from members of the administration. That is a very serious loss of trust in the country’s leaders.

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Zsuzsa
Guest

lies. and they don’t even bother to synchronize them.

Guest

OT

For those who read Hungarian, an extremely thorough, objective, copiously annotated, highly insightful and surprisingly readable paper on Islamic fundamentalism and political violence in Europe (pages 115-141):

http://www.kbh.gov.hu/hu/letoltes/szsz/2009_4_szam.pdf

The author is Kiss Álmos Péter, a strategic analyst of military and terrorism matters. Kiss is an ex-US Army NCO who served for many years in intelligence roles in the US Army before returning to Hungary to continue working in his field from there, including teaching at the University of the Hungarian Army (Zrínyi Miklós Nemzetvédelmi Egyetem, Budapest).

Very impressive and worth reading with a great deal of attention.

A world class analysis.

István
Guest
The Kiss essay is somewhat rambling in my opinion, in many aspects it is written like an undergraduate research paper with a significant number of citations and many arguments that are internally contradictory. It’s sweep is far too broad to be useful, it is Europe wide, and does not discuss generational change within Islamic communities in specific European nations. For example how does intermarriage with white Christian Europeans change the self isolation of Islamic communities in Europe? How does the educational attainment of members of the Islamic community change the isolation factor in specific European states? If one is seriously concerned about global terrorism my recommendation is to examine the body of work produced by David Kilcullen. From 2005 to 2006, he was Chief Strategist in the Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism at the U.S. State Department. Kilcullen was a senior counter-insurgency advisor to US General David Petraeus in 2007 and 2008, where he helped design and monitor the Iraq War troop surge.He was then a special advisor for counter-insurgency to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.Kilcullen has been a Senior Fellow of the Center for a New American Security and an Adjunct Professor at the Paul H. Nitze School… Read more »
exTor
Guest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kilcullen

Thanx for the Kiss backfeed, István. Unfortunately, my Magyar ken is still lacking, especially with respect to technical/convoluted texts.

I’d never heard of David Kilcullen, or more likely he never stuck in my brain, so I had a looksee at his Wikibio. Quite impressive. Three books by him are mentioned. Can you recommend one that is readable and light on the military jargon? In other words, something for the layperson.

As for the Invasion of Iraq, I’m with the many who feel that it was just another extension of US imperialism, one that destroyed a country and destabilized a region. We’re now witnessing the ramifications of that act.

MAGYARKOZÓ

István
Guest

Out of the Mountains: The Coming Age of the Urban Guerrilla is an amazing book and much of it is from own first hand experiences. Kilcullen is for real both an intellectual and a solider.

Guest

@exTor
September 26, 2015 at 9:26 am

Re Iraq – completely agree.

Guest

@István
September 26, 2015 at 8:17 am

You are right.

First impressions can be misleading, as I was in this case, particularly if one is not a specialist in the field.

Guest

@István
September 26, 2015 at 8:17 am

I fully understand your negative evaluation of this paper, as a professional.

After a second reading however, me being a rank amateur in these matters, I still like this paper, notwithstanding the flaws and omissions you point out in it.

Perhaps this is because the paper tends to confirm and elucidate some of my own previous understandings about its subject matter.

So I have to ruefully admit that despite my strenuous protestations and illusions to the contrary, it would seem that I too am a slave to at least some preconceived ideas and prejudices, like most other people in this world.

Here in Australia we call this sort of realization meeting yourself coming from the opposite direction.

:-))

Guest

Re: ‘notorious mendacity’

Fidesz must know about ‘Big Daddy’ that Cat on a Hot Tin Roof character who understood the whys and wherefores of lies: ‘ There ain’t nothin more powerful than the odor of mendacity…You can smell it. It smells like death’. And some politicos in Hungary just don’t care. When a place becomes say ‘unfashionable’ to tell the truth it’s going to sink and get into some deep trouble.

dos929
Guest
Ever since the FIDESZ have been in power their governance is based on blatant lies, deceptions and misleading both, the Hungarian citizens and the foregn observers and diplomats. Their primary goal was to get hold on the media, the process which was started back in 1998, during their 1st government. They managed to achieve this to such an extent that the voice of the democratic opposition can only reach a couple of hundred thousand people. The misrepresentation of facts spewed out by them is not accidental, but well planned strategy that is the hallmark of the Orbán regime. In decent democracies when a government representative is caught lying the consequences are severe, and mostly end up in dismissal. And the same for PM’S may end with the falling of their government. In Hungary’s ‘illiberal democracy’ Orbán and his regime strive on lies to the extent that practically not one word that their propaganda machine fabricates can be believed. It seems that finally perhaps the EU came to realise this as well, but sadly this won’t change anything on the ground. Orbán and his regime with their underhanded methods have managed to eliminate the liberal opposition, the majority of the learned… Read more »
Guest
@dos929 September 26, 2015 at 12:22 am Yet, ironically, never in history has so much information been instantly available on all pros and cons of any and all issues in current affairs as on the internet these days. This would also have to be so for Hungarians, at least for those among them who have internet access and at least reading knowledge of one or another major language in Western Europe. Yet this avalanche of information does not seem to make the slightest difference or impact among the vast majority of Hungarians – and not just among the majority of even foreign language speakers inside Hungary, but even among Hungarian emigrés in the West, among whom there seem to be multitudes of Orbán supporters, for whom “my leader, right or wrong” seems to be the operating principle. One cannot but conclude that Hungarians appear to have a peculiar propensity for self-brainwashing into delusional beliefs and for socializing themselves into self-deception and having closed minds, so it is entirely unsurprising that when any of their theories happen to fly in the face of facts, the standard Hungarian response is “to hell with the facts.” This is so strongly manifested among most… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Eva wrote “By now perhaps even the majority of Hungarian society is at a point that they don’t believe a word they hear from members of the administration.” I think it’s even worse than that. Lying is so pervasive throughout society that it is expected from government. I don’t think people expect to hear the truth, at all. Many, many people think that someone who achieves what s/he wants through lies is “clever” or “adept” (ügyes), even if those lies are later exposed. Someone whose lies fail isn’t looked down upon for lying, but for failing. “I wasn’t even there” (ott se voltam) is a phrase everyone understands. Some years ago a lit. crit. (E. Babarczy) wrote a review of the film “Rokonok” (relatives) based on the novel by M. Zsigmond, which ends with the suicide of the main character, a politician caught in an elaborate corruption scheme (more elaborate than most in Hungary today, anyway). The critic wrote that there is a difference in the reception of the work now and when it was published (1934): most Hungarians today don’t have the slightest idea why the main character committed suicide. The logic of the story, the denouement, is incomprehensible… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Two more phrases I’ve heard time and time again from people who have lied, or said or done something offensive (as we all do from time to time): “I didn’t say that” (nem azt mondtam), and then if they are forced to admit that they DID say or do it “I didn’t mean it that way” (nem úgy értettem).
All I want at times like that is “I’m sorry.” and I can forget it. The “I didn’t say that”, and then “I didn’t mean it that way” is just adding insult to injury (as if there were something wrong with my comprehension).
But all too often I find that the people who use these phrases are amazed that I am even more offended after they use them. For them, these phrases seem to mean “just forget it – I retract my words.” (maybe I’m misunderstanding things -if I am, I would be happy to get clarification from a native Hungarian)

Wictorr
Guest

Sorry, but I don’t encounter lying colleagues etc.

But as a native speaker I think I agree with your ideas.

Saying sorry would be an admission that the lie was morally questionable, and as you say it these people just don’t get it way there is an issue with that.

That said, this is a very typical communication pattern which I experienced in South Asia. They all (many) try to cheat you, lie very often and they just don’t think it’s any problematic. 99% of the time you realize their schemes and they are poor so it’s no big deal. You are rich, so it doesn’t matter to you, they think. I guess most Hungarians are similar with you.

Webber
Guest

Wictorr –
You contradicted yourself – “I don’t encounter lying…” followed by your remark about my comments on “saying sorry…” being fair. You can’t have it both ways.

And I was not talking about people trying to cheat Westerners at all. I don’t understand why you even mention that – I didn’t. That is an entirely different issue (anyway, some Hungarians also – frequently – cheat other Hungarians, as you know).

What I described was inter-personal communication, conducted solely in Hungarian (I happen to speak the language).

What you said about “saying sorry” is precisely what I object to – or rather, it is not so much not getting a “sorry.” (that, too, can be forgiven). What is unforgivable (to me) is when one is insulted, and then the insult is made worse by a lie. I have broken relations with certain people because they lied about what they had done – not because they did what they did, but because in addition to objectionable words or actions, they insulted me, personally, a second time by lying to my face by saying that I did not see what I saw, and did not hear what I heard.

Webber
Guest

P.S. Naturally I know many Hungarians who don’t do this – friends, colleagues, etc. But I have never experienced this behavior in any European country but Hungary (I haven’t lived in them all, of course).
Incidentally, if you work in an intl. corporation, be careful not to follow that behavior pattern (unless your boss is Hungarian – maybe). It’s enough to get you fired in most places.

Guest

I may have written about this before:

Around 20 years ago my sister lived for some time in Budapest – her English husband worked for one of he global players in finance. He was sent to another country (like his colleagues) every two or three years so not to get too friendly and involved with the locals …
When we (my first wife and me …) visited them he told us some almost unbelievable stories – and he’s never returned to Hungary after that, he was so angry about the ways people tried to cheat him and the company!
Though my sister comes here to visit me and my second (Hungarian) wife regularly (at least once a year, the two women get along very well) he won’t come with her.

So corruption on all levels must have been really bad in the 90s – though on the other hand I’ve mainly met very nice and honest people here in Hungary – like my wife and her family …
And since we rely on word of mouth when we’re looking for someone to do business with we haven’t been disappointed too often

Webber
Guest

Things were much worse in the 1990s. People were fleeced left right and center. Hungarians were cheated, too – “caveat emptor” was for everyone. Back then, there were even openly advertised different prices for foreigners and for Hungarians.

Wictorr
Guest

My English is far from perfect. I just wanted to express sympathy with your situation.

Obviously people lie all the time, but I somehow never encountered this the way you did, so ridiculously. I guess it also depends on what kind of business you are in, I tend to work with the same people with little employee turnover.

In my foreign experience I did have similar experience though. Blatant lies which turn out to be lies very quickly and then nothing, no apology, you are expected to carry on because you are a rich, white person.

But I believe you absolutely, I know similar stories of cheating, fraud and lies at least in business.

Webber
Guest

Yes – people lie a lot. In fact, everyone (regardless of nationality) lies sometimes. It’s just this rather unique form of lying that has me stumped- lying when the liar knows very well that the person he is lying to knows what the truth is.

Guest

@Webber
September 26, 2015 at 2:50 am

— “that’s the way the world works – nothing I am told or see is as it seems.” —

which paradoxically also appears to be a convenient way of justifying individual and societal failure.

This time of year
Guest
“The logic of the story, the denouement, is incomprehensible to many Hungarians today.” I seriously think the Holocaust could happen again if it depended on the average folks, nothing changed really. The only reason it could not happen is because jews or whoever would simply disobey letters from the government, which simply did not occur to people then because authority, hierarchy, obligation, duty, honor, shame etc. were entirely different concepts in the 1930’s than now. In the 1930’s (Great Depression) people who lost money or lost money of other’s committed suicide out of shame. Communists living in the 1930’s in the West got a summons to Moscow, and they went to Moscow even though they knew they would likely be killed. In Hungary people were repeatedly called in for “munkaszolgálat” a forced labour service for Jew during which significant portions regularly died – yet, people (the survivors) went again and again when called in (until they were killed or later they were transported to the extermination camps). I think it’s very politically incorrect to say but many (obviously not all) jews went to the camps knowing full well that they were going to be executed, that the setting up of… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Another type of duplicity:

Yesterday (September 25), 7,895 migrants crossed the Croatian- Hungarian border, with government assistance – bus, train etc.
This way the Orban government committed 7,895 criminal acts , according to their own law, which has been effective since September 15.

Yesterday, there were 256 illegal crossings of the Serbian – Hungarian border as well.
Some of these people are prosecuted.

There were 12 verdicts yesterday for this crime: (1 or 2-year bans from Hungary)

bimbi
Guest

Zoltan Balog the Hungarian government minister and cult leader had a slight problem in ordering his priorities but it didn’t take him long to sort it out. His first priority was as a disciple of Viktor Orban and after that came his duties as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Hey no problem. A bit like that other cult leader the right honorable bishop of Esztergom of the holy apostolic catholic cult who likewise decided where his priorities lay with respect to offering any assistance to recent migrants (who probably belonged to some other cult) – first comes VO and then devotion to la Serenissima Maria. Pragmatism and Deception – ya gotta love it!

tappanch
Guest

Crime and punishment.

“Brussels reopened the money faucet” on September 23.

The EU fined Hungary for only 2% of the 2.3 billion euros that had been investigated.

The Fidesz media is elated. The skimming can go on.

http://magyaridok.hu/gazdasag/megnyitotta-brusszel-penzcsapot-25737/

Webber
Guest

Fidesz has every right to be elated.
Anyway, no surprises here: I do not believe that Brussels didn’t have a clue what was going on in Greece all those years. The attitude still seems to be “if they want to steal it, and cook the books, that’s their problem, not ours.”

spagetti3
Guest

There’s a rather interesting interview between Tyler Cowen and Luigi Zingales.

Prof. Zingales (of U. of Chicago, originally from Italy) has interesting parallels about the rather imperfect unification of Italy and that of the EU.

Just as Brussels doesn’t and will never care about corruption in Greece or Hungary, the northern Italian elite didn’t care about the mafia or the feudal power structures of the South (of course now the mafia is already in Milan or Venice so the mafiosi won). The only thing they cared about was unity.

Orban and Hungary can do any and all things and Brussels will not do a thing and will keep paying the hush money into Orban’s pockets. Deal with it.

https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/watch-a-conversation-with-luigi-zingales-c5ed3601a8f0

Member
Re. Austria. What is the correlation between the humanitarian (aka migrant) corridor and the wire fence? a.) Not much if you don’t talk about Dublin. b.) Whatever the Austrian answer is to these two particular questions the victor looked victorious and the Austrians stand corrected. Or apologetic. At least according to the first impressions of the Hungarian press. (Not sure about the Austrian media.) OVi though made a “gesture” to the hosts by not meeting FPÖ leader. The encounter was made part of the official (Hungarian) program. If taken place, most probably went unnoticed by Austrians but denounced by the opposition in Hungary. To me this maneuver though served his self-interests too. This “last minute” decision supposed to show that he doesn’t support neo-Nazis (in Austria) and gave him the chance to find fault with his hosts for forming a local coalition with the questionable party. What’s more, Hungary now is in a more forceful position than Austria. If wanted, Hungary can flood Austria or the border with “migrants” with very little internal political consequences to Hungary, whereas Austria is in a position that is more precarious. Smart, isn’t it not? What is it if not interference? Austria is a… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Fidesz tree cutting in Budapest continues, this time at “Romai part” (Danube embankment in northern Obuda).

The mobile dyke tender was awarded to the most expensive bidder, naturally.

http://hvg.hu/gazdasag/20150926_A_legdragabb_ajanlat_nyerte_a_kozbeszerze

tappanch
Guest
Sheikh Muhammad Ayed of the Al-Aqsa mosque, Jerusalem in a sermon on September 11, 2015: “This dark night will be over, and soon, we will trample them [the Christians] underfoot, Allah willing. Germany is not a compassionate country that wishes to absorb refugees from Syria and Iraq, and Palestinian refugees in the Levant and elsewhere. Europe has become old and decrepit, and needs human reinforcement. No force is more powerful than the human force of us Muslims. Oh Muslims, the Germans say, in their economic reports, that they need 50,000 young workers. Now, they have got 20,000, and they want another 30,000 and more, to work in their factories. They are not motivated by compassion for the Levant, its people, and its refugees. Throughout Europe, all the hearts are infused with hatred toward Muslims. They wish that we were dead. But they have lost their fertility, so they look for fertility in their midst. We will give them fertility! We will breed children with them, because we shall conquer their countries – whether you like it or not, oh Germans, oh Americans, oh French, oh Italians, and all those like you. Take the refugees! We shall soon collect them in… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Tappanch – Again, the verb “breed” used for human beings…. There’s a term for people who use that sort of speech for other human beings – and there are more than enough people who think in that manner in Europe already. Yesterday it was the Jews, today Muslims will be the target, tomorrow?
Where do you live?
If you want to see the enemy of Europe, look in the mirror.

tappanch
Guest

These are the words of a preacher of the Aqsa mosque (which is the 3rd most important in Sunni Islam since the Crusades), NOT mine !

Webber
Guest

Regardless of how bizarre and objectionable the man’s words are, I have a hard time believing that he used the verb “breed” in Arabic (Is there a different verb in Arabic for animals, as there is in English?). Sounds like (wishful?) creative translation to me.
Whatever the case, I could in return quote the words of Rev. Hegedűs, pastor of the most centrally-located Calvinist church in Budapest. What he says about Jews would make your hair stand on end.
Does the fact that he says such things from such a central place mean that all Calvinists, or even that a majority of Calvinists share his sentiments?
Should we now restrict the movement of Calvinists to other countries to prevent the spread of anti-Semitism?

tappanch
Guest

The big difference is that Calvin [as opposed to the late Luther] was philo-Semitic , while Muhammad declared this to be Allah’s words:

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)”

[sura 9, which is the penultimate sura in chronological order, therefore it abrogates the previous, sometimes more lenient suras].

Therefore Hegedűs contradicts the founding father of his religion, who is not adorned with prophetic powers to start with, while Ayed is faithful.

This makes the difference.

Webber
Guest

Well then, that’s clear!
Lutherans should not be allowed to travel….
I recall certain Catholic doctrines, also, being, ehemmm, well, not terribly philo-semitic…
They’ve been repealed, but still.
Certain Catholic teachings about the absolute, indeed unique correctness of Catholic doctrine and the infallibility of the Pope are also interesting.
You might consider keeping Catholics in isolation, too…

tappanch
Guest

In Islam, only Muhammad had the right to repeal something that was revealed earlier. He also declared that he was the last prophet.

Therefore Sura 9 cannot be repealed !

tappanch
Guest

The Shi’as regard abrogation as less straightforward than the Sunnis do.

gdfxx
Guest

Does Hegedus have the same rank in the world’s Calvinist movement as the quoted Muslim cleric?

Webber
Guest

Again, read through the line of posts, and you’ll see the logic. If you react in this way, hours after a conversation took place without looking at the whole conversation first, your responses/questions will be silly.

gdfxx
Guest

Maybe you should read the post more carefully and then you will see who used the word breed.

Webber
Guest

I did see who allegedly used the word breed. I take umbrage, still. For why, look at my post- Webber
September 26, 2015 at 6:36 am.
Maybe you should read through the series of comments before you post?

Webber
Guest

Now – being a curious person – I have looked up the Sheikh’s speech, to see whether Arab speakers say was accurately translated. One I found said the translation was accurate, but also said “I caution you into not taking this mans statements all too seriously Imams in Islamic culture are not the equivalent of Priests, popes or bishops. His opinion means nothing, is non binding and highly debatable. Muslims are not obliged to obey anything any cleric says. The only way a clerics opinion is enforced is if the state turns it into law, which it rarely does even in Saudi Arabia.”

Here’s my source, for whatever it’s worth: https://www.quora.com/Is-MEMRIs-translation-of-Sheikh-Muhammad-Ayeds-sermon-at-the-Al-Aqsa-mosque-on-the-Temple-Mount-accurate

So, perhaps Hegedűs’s words are more important than his, after all? I really don’t know. I know quite a lot (I believe) about Christian churches, but not much at all about the importance (or not) of clerics in Islam.

Webber
Guest

Whatever the case, the Arab speaker’s comment above is wrong about Protestant preachers. Their words also are non-binding, can be highly debatable, and can be freely challenged and/or denounced by any member of the greater communion.
I should also remark, however, that the congregation in the church where Hegedűs preaches has every right, under Calvinist practice, to remove him as pastor from their church. That they have not done so suggests that his anti-semitism is perfectly okay with the majority of them.

gdfxx
Guest

Just look at Iran. Who is their Supreme Leader?

Webber
Guest

This guy is Iranian – does he scare you?

The majority of Muslim refugees are not Shia, but Sunni. Iranians are mostly Shia.
I suggest you chat with some Iranians about what they think about that Supreme Leader. There are a few living in Oregon – mostly in Portland. You’re in for a surprise if you really believe that they run their lives according to the wishes of the Supreme Leader. They will also tell you they are Muslim if you ask. Just see what sort of people they are. It will not be an unpleasant experience.

gdfxx
Guest

I did not ask about Iranians in Oregon. And also, why do you think the Sunnis are running away from Syria and Iraq? Because of the crusaders?

Webber
Guest

You didn’t ask much of anything at all, just a rhetorical question which I answered. So, here’s my rhetorical question: When Iranians move to Oregon from iran, do you think they are no longer Iranians? (you mentioned Iran’s leadership as somehow relevant, not me). And why do you ask me that stupid question?

gdfxx
Guest

Well, I am not sure who is stupid here.

But let me do a little more sza’jbara’ga’s. The Sunni are running away from Iraq and Syria (mostly) because their Shia brethren are chasing them away. Not that the Sunnis in Iraq were better with their Shia brethren, when they were in power.

As far as immigrants to America become Americans or not, that is a question that easy to answer. They do. Maybe not the first generation, maybe not the second, but eventually they do.

spectator
Guest

“We will give them fertility! We will breed children with them…”

Whoooah!
“Make love not war!”
From a Sheik its a rather bold statement.. !

🙂 Think positive, will ya..? 🙂

Member

Excellent summary of the appalling and worsening situation in Hungary by Istvan Rev — https://people.ceu.edu/istvan_rev — of the CEU’s Open Society Archives http://w3.osaarchivum.org — in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/opinion/hungarys-politics-of-hate.html?_r=0

tappanch
Guest
” Berlin, Tegel Airport, August 19 At 1 p.m. on this beautiful summer day, Merkel sets off to Brazil, joined by a large delegation. Before she makes her way to the plane, however, she speaks with Interior Minister de Maizière on the phone. He tells her about the rapidly rising number of refugees and says he plans to announce a new full-year forecast that afternoon, a figure that has been upwardly revised from 450,000 to 800,000.” ” Nuremberg, Federal Office for Migration and Refugees, August 21 Angelika Wenzl, a senior official at Germany’s Federal Office for Migration and Refugees, writes a momentous paper bearing the reference number 411-93605/Syria/2015. It states that the elaborate Dublin procedures will be suspended for refugees from Syria. That means that whoever makes it to Germany from the civil war-town country will no longer be sent away, even if another EU country is technically responsible for them. The memo, never meant to go public, was supposed to provide some bureaucratic relief. But once Wenzl’s message ends up in the inbox of the aid organization Pro Asyl, it’s not long before it goes up on their English website. Any doubts about the document’s authenticity were brushed aside… Read more »
Havelaar
Guest

Very important and interesting developments.

Dear Eva, I hope you are pleased with this.

Or I am counting myself rich? And this is not too important either?

“Ex-Vizechefin der EU-Kommission rechnet mit Orban ab”

Schluss damit, fordert Vivian Reding: Seine Fidesz muss die Europäische Volkspartei verlassen.

Of course after being kicked out of the EPP, Orban has nowhere to go. The next step will be that Fidesz/Hungary will be kicked out of the EU. Soon the EU parliament will take follow-up steps from the Tavares report. It is obvious that the EU parliament will have, once again, a clear majority to deal with this corrupt, authoritarian, populistic, creep. Leaning on White Supremacist propaganda.

http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article146862760/Ex-Vizechefin-der-EU-Kommission-rechnet-mit-Orban-ab.html“The Fidesz party no longer has a place in the EPP” — Viviane Reding, MEP

http://www.politico.eu/article/black-sheep-in-the-european-parliament-viktor-orban-epp-mep/

Reding believes her Christian Social People’s Party (CSV) is the only one to take a firm stand, and she deplores what she considers the “silence and complacency” of other MEPs in the face of Orbán’s “uninhibited populism.”

Herbert Reul, a German member of the EPP who is from Merkel’s Christian Democrats, called Orban and Seehofer’s comments “cheap populism.”

Room
Guest

@Havelaar

Fidesz will not be kicked out. You or Ms. Reading underestimate Orban’s influence in the PP. Fidesz is a very important part of PP and the leaders of PP know that.

Ms. Reading played her role, she was duly defeated by Orban, she has no influence at present. Orban is still here and he calls the shots. Orban is still ascending, Ms. Reading is irrelevant.

Also you may or may not like Mr. Seehofer but he is there, he is popular and without CSU there’s no CDU. Merkel and the moderates know that exactly. In fact they are happy to have Seehofer and Stoiber etc. because this way the CDU brand can have an ‘extreme’ side as well, which is good for marketing purposes. Orban, when it still mattered also had the hardliner Kövér and the “liberal” Pokorni and Pröhle, or the KDNP for that matter. This is a game even in Germany.

Guest
Though, I fully agree with Eva’s post and consider Balog a great example of a hypocrite and one of the most obnoxious members of this government. (The competition is pretty strong for this title.) However, I would be very cautious making sweeping conclusions for Hungarians or even for the majority of the Hungarians based on this example. One should not even leave the US to find similar examples all around. Recent news about the former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton I think proves my point pretty well: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/25/sources-state-dept-finds-more-clinton-emails-relating-to-libya-benghazi/ . One may argue, yes G Nagy but this is different kind of lie….maybe. But would Clinton’s case provide me any clue regarding people’s credibility in the US? No way. But back to Hungary just remember the Animal Farm and Squealer’s lies or “reinterpretation” of the history. “Squealer explained privately to the other animals that Napoleon had never in reality been opposed to the windmill… That, he said, was Comrade Napoleon’s cunning.” In this case Semjen played the role of Squelar for mini Napoleon. (Balog). That is why I have deja vu feeling all the time following the story unfolding in Hungary. Orwell has described this system precisely in Animal Farm. These… Read more »
spectator
Guest

What if I argue, yes, G Nagy, but what the flying heck difference it makes, regarding Balog, Orbán, Szijjártó, etc., anyway?

Believe me, the fact that someone somewhere even bigger thief, liar – or ‘scum’ for short – doesn’t make them honest and clear, does it?

tappanch
Guest

According to index.hu, a deputy Greek minister said on Greek television today that the government wants to open the Evros land fence between Turkey and Greece.

This would accelerate the great migration of 2015 from Asia to Europe !

http://index.hu/kulfold/2015/09/26/gorogorszag_megnyithatja_a_gorog-torok_keritest_a_menekultek_elott/

Member
I think one important question to answer is how they can remain popular with all the lies? The answer is that always remain next a to the populist agenda. Something that people want to hear. Let’s face it, the regular contributors to these comments would not believe two months ago the support arriving to Orban from the more liberal minded people from this blog. I am not talking about hose commenters who always had their own best interest in mind, and Orban not pleased them, so they did not like him. I am talking about those who seems to be supportive in general of Western values. Most of us do understand that there is a refugees rise, and most of us do not want to flood Hungary with refugees either. The problem we had with was with the treatment of the refugees in Hungary. Other countries have their problem too, and they do suggest solutions. Orban’s solution is to leave the refugees in Serbia, Turkey, Greece. The typical Hungarian attitude of “not on my backyard”, “let the neighbour’s cow die”. And we have these seemingly bright people on this blog, who buy into Orban’s ideology that is all about an… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Time to chill some people out again. Just watch; this is an Iranian-British comedian. You won’t regret it:

If you’re still terrified of Muslim immigration after that… well, I’ll keep trying.

Guest

Good jokes. For some reason I cannot imagine that this guy”s wife will be wearing burkha when they visiit together a shopping center in London.

I had and Iranian colleague before a girl but you would never say that she comes from a muslim country. After some long conversations my impression was that Iranians are probably as much devoted muslims as Hungarians are devoted christians. So it doesn’t mean too much for them.

tappanch
Guest

Last year, Fidesz wanted to take over the leadership of the Budapest Bar Association.

But it failed miserably (only 3 out of 120 candidates close to Fidesz were elected)

Now a court nullified the entire election for minor problems (like a non-elected secretary counted the votes).

http://nol.hu/belfold/hatalmi-harc-az-ugyvedeknel-1565503

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