The “experimental” fence between Slovenia and Hungary

On September 25 Viktor Orbán, after his conversations with Austrian Chancellor Werner Faymann and Vice-Chancellor Reinhold Mitterlehner, gave a press conference in which he talked at some length about the Slovenian-Hungarian border. He categorically stated that Hungary doesn’t want to build a fence between Slovenia and Hungary. The activity along the border is merely earthwork. Hungarians are clearing the ground to make it accessible to motorized vehicles. Because Slovenia is a member of the Schengen zone, nothing can be built along the border “that cannot be moved away within a day.”

What happened in reality? Contrary to the prime minister’s claim, Hungary did build a fence, although the Hungarian government would disagree with my choice of words; they described it as a wire obstacle. Moreover, it was not the kind of structure that, in Orbán’s legal code, is prohibited between two Schengen countries. It could be moved away within a day–and it was.

The decision to build the fence had already been reached about a week before Viktor Orbán denied any such intention. On Monday, September 21, Viktor Orbán delivered a speech in parliament in which he appealed for votes from the opposition to allow the domestic use of the Hungarian army given the emergency situation created by the refugee crisis. There he explained that while the police force is sufficient to defend the Serb-Hungarian border, this is not the case along the Croatian and Slovenian sections of the country’s borders. Here the presence of the army is necessary. So, I think it is safe to assume that the decision to build a fence along the Slovenian border had already been reached sometime prior to September 21. In fact, I’m pretty certain that it was reached as soon as it became clear that the Slovenian government was allowing refugees to cross into Slovenian territory from Croatia. And that was on September 18-19. It was during that weekend that Viktor Orbán most likely told Fidesz MPs who had gathered for a weekend retreat at Lake Velence about his resolve to extend the fence farther north. Indirect evidence for that scenario comes from László Vïgh, an MP from Zala County, who when asked by a reporter from a local paper what’s going on in their region said the following: “Viktor Orbán made it absolutely clear that the erection of the fence will continue as long as is necessary. Therefore, I’m certain that we will continue to build the fence along the Slovenian and if necessary even along the Austrian border.” He should have known since he was present at that meeting.

Subsequently, this government decision was confirmed many times. On September 24, a day before Viktor Orbán’s trip to Vienna, János Lázár at his usual Thursday press conference talked about the necessity of building a fence along the Slovenian border. Zoltán Kovács, on the same day, announced that work on the fence had already begun, starting in the village of Tornyiszentmiklós. And indeed MTI reported that the barbed wire and gates had been delivered and that soldiers were busily building the fence.

The Hungarian government meant business / Photo Sobotainfo

The Hungarian government meant business / Photo Sobotainfo

Slovenian polictians were stunned. Boštjan Šefic, undersecretary in the Slovenian ministry of interior, reported that during the previous night the Slovenians noticed “unusual activity” along the Hungarian border. It was before the fact that they received official notification from Budapest. Vesna Györkös Žnidar, Slovenia’s minister of interior, complained about Sándor Pintér’s lack of cooperation with her own ministry. And Karl Erjavec, the foreign minister, charged that Budapest didn’t bother to get in touch with him about Hungarian intentions.

The Hungarian side naturally told a different story. The spokesman for the Hungarian foreign ministry insisted that Péter Szijjártó had called Erjavec and explained to him that “Hungary is not building a permanent structure.” The foreign ministry spokesman also maintained that the two ministers of interior had several conversations on the subject. He claimed that Vesna Györkös Žnidar should have been aware that if refugees cross into Slovenia, Hungary will build a fence in order to defend its borders. This last statement pretty well confirms that Pintér did not specifically inform Žnidar. She was supposed to assume that such an action would be automatically implemented.

Meanwhile Slovenia got in touch with Dimitris Avramopoulos, EU commissioner for migration, home affairs, and citizenship who in turn contacted the Hungarian government. Ljubljana also alerted Johannes Hahn, commissioner in charge of European neighborhood policy and enlargement negotiations. By the morning of Friday, September 25, it became evident that building a fence between two Schengen states was a serious matter and that such a move would have grave consequences. It was at this point that Orbán, still in Vienna, tried to minimize Hungarian activities along the border as merely earthwork that had nothing to do with the fence. But pictures taken on the spot tell a different story. The picture (above) that was published on the Slovenian internet site SobotaInfo is especially telling. And MTI’s photo, taken at Tornyiszentmiklós, shows gates waiting to be moved to block the road to Slovenian territory.

Slovenija2

Panic must have set in because late at night on September 25 Sándor Pintér announced that although “as an experiment a wire obstacle (drótakadály) had been laid,” it had been removed during the afternoon. From the announcement we learn that Pintér rushed to the border to meet his counterpart, Vesna Györkös Žnidar. In the future, the announcement continued, the two of them will consult with each other about any activities along the border. The word from Brussels had to be quite forceful because the Hungarian government caved, something that doesn’t happen too often in EU-Hungarian relations.

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Member

Am very upset about this fence, and this has nothing to do with immigration. Can you image the damage these fences will cause to wildlife? Even with barbed wires the damage is great but with razor wires the consequence will be devastating. I think animal right groups should also speak up at this point.

Member

That’s exactly what I’ve been feeling all along: Humans can penetrate this fence without being injured but wildlife is helpless.

(I had posted some photos of deer who died impaled on Orban’s fence, but I can’t seem to locate them any more: Does anyone have links to photos? Those too should be prominently displayed to document Orban’s growing list of atrocities.)

These fences are illegal in the EU because they block wildlife’s normal migratory (sic) routes; and razor fences maim and kill them.

Member

I tried to find some reference. If you enter razor fence / wildlife in Google images you can find a few.
Interestingly I came across an article:
Turkish company in Germany refuses to sell razor wire to Hungary on humanitarian grounds
See below

Reality Check
Guest
Reality Check
Guest

Az ombudsmanhelyettes is aggódik a földikutyákért
http://greenfo.hu/hirek/2015/09/27/az-ombudsmanhelyettes-is-aggodik-a-foldikutyakert

Ombudsman concerned that fence threatens endangered Vojvodina blind mole rat.

European rodent on the edge: status and distribution of the Vojvodina blind mole rat
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3579411/

“Recent research of blind mole rats of the species complex Nannospalax (superspecies leucodon) identified a small and fragmented population of these rodents on both sides of the Hungarian-Serbian border. ……. Based on our present knowledge, the Vojvodina blind mole rat is one of the most seriously threatened, rarest mammal in Europe, the remaining population of which can be wiped out within years unless immediate conservation action is taken.”

Construction activities, the fence, and the compaction of soil by vehicles moving along the patrol routes along the fence could split an already very small meta-population, 300 or so individuals, into two smaller isolated populations. It is well established that smaller populations are at greater risk of of extinction than larger populations. Smaller population are more susceptible to demographic stochasticity and are at risk of a population vortex triggered by inbreeding.

In addition, to his crimes against humanity, OV could be responsible for pushing a species into extinction. All for a fence that can not prevent 1000’s from still crossing into Hungary every day.

Member

Dear Reality Check, many thanks, yes, those were the images I meant. — SH
comment image

Member

Eva, I just came across an article and according to it the idea of building a fence in Hungary came in early JULY!

“Murat Ekrek and Talat Değer, the owners of the Berlin based fencing company Mutanox, have rejected Hungary’s offer worth thousands of euros as they claimed the razor wire, built to prevent refugees, is an inhumane measure.

Değer and Ekrek in their facility in Berlin (Photo: Sabah Germany)
Değer and Ekrek in their facility in Berlin (Photo: Sabah Germany)Speaking exclusively to Daily Sabah, Talat Değer stated that they refused Hungarian government’s offer due to the aim and the method to use the razor wire.

The offer was made in early July for 10,000 rolls of razor wire worth 500,000 euros, Değer said, which is enough to cover a 40 kilometer long line.

“If people or animals get caught within the wire, they can only be saved by the help of a person. Otherwise, the more you try to rescue yourself on your own, the more you get injured,” he added, noting that the wire also poses a serious threat for livestock, farm animals or wildlife.”

The article is from September 21st http://www.dailysabah.com/syrian-crisis/2015/09/21/turkish-company-in-germany-refuses-to-sell-razor-wire-to-hungary-on-humanitarian-grounds

gdfxx
Guest

I assume that the company manufactures and advertises the razor wire fence material. I wonder for what purpose do they make it?

Guest

They sell this NATO-certified material to the army etc.
Prisons, barracks etc are protected by it – but t is put on the top (more than 2m high) so it will only hurt someone who tries to climb that fence – and of course there are warning signs …

“”Normally, these razor wires are placed over a 2-meter wall or another structure in order to protect people and animals from unwanted damage. However, Hungarian government laid these fences right over the ground to act quickly and prevent refugees, posing a serious threat of injury for refugees, which include women and children,” Değer stated.”

gdfxx
Guest

I’ve got news for you: deer easily jump over a 2 m wall. Unless they trip, as they also trip when they jump over a razor wire wall…

Webber
Guest

deer also rub up against things to scratch themselves – fences, among other things. If they rub up against razor wire, they are caught, seriously injured, and even sometimes die. The same goes for cattle. Here is a image of ordinary barbed wire fences, with hair from animals scratching themselves:
http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml?safesearch=1&search_type=similar&similar_photo_id=64093
This is why you don’t use razor wire to fence in (or out) animals.

gdfxx
Guest

http://www.barbedwiresupplier.com/

“Barbed wire fencing in 3, 4, 5 or 6 rows barbed wire can used as livestock fence for protection against wild animals and intrusion, as well as to protect pastures and farmland.”

“Must note, when you deal with it, please very careful, otherwise, you can get seriously hurt by its sharp barb.”

Not as bad as razor wire. But still, one can get seriously hurt. I guess the cows and the deer can read the warning…

Webber
Guest

gdfxx – you are getting very silly.
Everyone and their mother knows that barbed wire is used for fencing in livestock. The pictures I put above show it, clearly. I’ve helped install it myself at relatives’ places.
Razor wire is something different and I specifically wrote razor wire.

Tyrker
Guest

Some1: “the idea of building a fence in Hungary came in early JULY”

No, the idea itself came much earlier. Hungarian portals reported on the details of the fence in the middle of June, fore example here: http://index.hu/gazdasag/2015/06/17/kerites_szavazas/

However, the idea was first mentioned earlier that month – specifically, 8 June 2015: http://index.hu/belfold/2015/06/08/vasfuggonyt_javasol_a_bevandorlok_ellen_a_biztonsagpolitikai_szakerto/

Of course at the time nobody talked about building one on the Slovenian border.

Member

Yet the EU is fully supporting the Hungarian dictatorship and all of its illegal activities, including suspension of all human rights in, by paying Hungary another 250.0 Billion Forints today.
Thank you EU, you are all supporting crime against humanity, you are all accessories to crime!

bimbi
Guest

This post nicely complements yesterday’s in which the inaccuraces/lies of Minister Balog were exposed.

Today’s example shows the way that incompetence, government overreach and plain diplomatic stupidity are then larded over with layers of untruths/lies/deceptions from the usual suspects including Mr. Szijjarto, our straight-shootin’ minister in charge of foreign affairs and finally the offending un-fence is hurried off-stage.

What should we call them, bozos?

Alas, these guys are the Hungaran GOVERNMENT!

tappanch
Guest

Numbers:

Migrants/refugees counted by Hungarian police from Jan 1 through Sep 26:
268,780

Registrations (asylum requests) in Hungary:
175,000

Average daily inflow in the last 9 days (Sep 18 through 26), the Croatian phase:
7,349

tappanch
Guest

Registrations (asylum requests) in Hungary:

Syrians: 37%
Afghans: 26%
Kosovars: 14%

all others : 23%

tappanch
Guest

Map of the first 6 months of 2015:
comment image

Webber
Guest
I hope the Pope’s speech Philadelphia will be widely published in Hungarian in Hungary. I trust that the heads of the Church in Hungary are reading it, and understand its message. It is an uncompromising message of love for all, regardless of their faith, and particularly discusses immigrants and immigration. I quote, just one part; “Many of you have immigrated to this country at great personal cost, but in the hope of building a new life….” These are the people some – Orban among them – are calling “economic migrants,” (gazdasági migránsok) with the implication that there is something wrong with moving to a new country to try to make a better life. I would stress again that all you Hungarians living in Western countries are among this group. When one or two of you – people who moved west after 1989 – object to migrants coming to Europe for better lives, you are objecting to something you, personally, have done. There is no shame in that. Please remember this. Those of you who left earlier because of political persecution – recall, you might now return to Hungary (or Romania, or Serbia, or Slovakia) with no fear; yet you stay… Read more »
István
Guest
There is also an aspect of emigration to the USA and his home country in Latin America that Pope Francis prefers not to discuss. It’s commonly called the rat lines. The rat lines were the way many Nazis and Fascists from Central Europe escaped from Europe following WWII. The Catholic Church was directly involved in those escapes. Michael Phayer a Catholic historian was particularly forthright about this. In this short essay Canonizing Pius XII. Why did the pope help Nazis escape? There is an outline of his thinking on this issue, here is a link http://povcrystal.blogspot.com/2010/01/michael-phayer-on-pius-xii.html . Phayer’s master work was The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965, it is available on Amazon as an E-book. As many of you on this blog know I have written many times on the impact of former Arrow Cross and Hungarian SS members on the Hungarian community here in Chicago during the Cold War. The election of Argentine Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio as Pope Francis brings back into focus the troubling role of the Catholic hierarchy in blessing much of the brutal repression that swept Latin America in the 1970s and 1980s, killing and torturing tens of thousands of people including priests and nuns… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

A few years ago, when we visited Argentina, we were warned by some locals, that there are places there where the majority of the inhabitants are descendants of German Nazis.

gdfxx
Guest

One more thing about this pope: everyone was so impressed, that a non-European pope was elected. But it turns out that he is a second generation Italian immigrant to Argentina…

Guest

Re:The Pope’s visit to America and his themes

Webber… Good to see a comment on this. Such a momentous event from a leader with another ‘view’ on the state of our global, personal and community relationships. I wished I would have been in Magyarorszag at this time camped out around Parliament and polled everybody who went through the doors on the event. Of course results here would have been provided even if not scientifically conducted….;-)..

Francis in his weighty position has beliefs which are in heightened contrast to the ridiculous rolls and rolls of steel riddled over the countryside as if they can stop the inevitability of change in the world. Standing Hungary next to the religious leader shows how ignobly ‘ugly’ the country is. In the case of Hungary the state of its geography itself is an indication of its soul. Sorry for that but it is true. Makeup certainly won’t help. Looks like those ripping wires have made her in need for plastic surgery both within and without.

Webber
Guest

As might have been expected – the new Hungarian laws that make crossing the fence on the border with Serbia a punishable offense are proving to be largely unenforceable. Every day a few people are caught to be brought to trial. Many, many more, however, cross the fence and are simply ignored by officials and the police because there is no way that they legal system can possibly process them. There are just too many people doing it to apply the law without swamping the system. Only a certain number of people can possibly be prosecuted. When refugees realize this – and they are surely sharing the information with one another now – more and more of them will simply go over the fence.
According to one report, more than 95% of those crossing the fence now will not face prosecution, and will not even be caught (I don’t know how the reporter could have got that figure). Story here:
http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/25/buntetoeljaras_migrans_szerb_hatar_kerites_gyoda_birosag/

tappanch
Guest

“95% of those crossing the fence now will not face prosecution”

September 15 through 26:
7% of the people who crossed the Serbian border were charged.

Member

In Saecula Saeculorum

That tired old Europe is being enriched with new blood is cause for nothing but celebration.

That it is also being suffused with yet another superstitious cult, less so. Judeo-Christendom was already cult enough.

The only good thing about religion is freedom of religion.

And the best way to exercise it is freedom from religion.

Let’s hope freedom will help secularize the refugees.

Hungary, not particularly devout, has managed to compound religious bigotry with racial bigotry, and Orban is capitalizing on it — to curb freedom.

Webber
Guest
Stevan Harnad : Europe is not being “suffused” with “another cult.” Europe had native Muslims long before any one of us was born, before even our great-grandparents were born: there are the Lipka Tatars of Poland; the Muslims of Sandjak (Serbia), of Bosnia, and of the Albanian-speaking lands; the Pomaks (Muslim Bulgarian speakers) and Turks of Bulgaria; and the Muslim peoples of Russia, whose religion is the 2nd largest in that country (and always has been). And all these nations and nationalities have always had significant diasporas throughout Europe. Even in places that did not appear to have a significant “native” Muslim population, they were present, symbolically and physically. In Hungary, for instance, before WWII, Bosnian traders were well known throughout the country (I can cite studies for those who doubt this). There is a film of Muslims in Budapest celebrating Bairam in the 1930s. And in Budapest, the tomb of Gül Baba amd some baths are witness to the Muslim heritage, as are the minarets in other places such as Pécs and Érd. All these things survived, though Muslims were slaughtered en mass when “the Turks” were driven from Hungary centuries ago. Muslims are part of Europe, and always… Read more »
Member

I agree but the as much as the “celebrate” and are proud of Gül Baba and some baths, Jobbik and Fidesz supporters of Hungariy keep talking about the hundred years of Turkish occupation. Highly ever talk about the gains. They also forget to mention that Hungarians (Magyarok) were not so forgiving when they forged ahead toward A Homeland or when they were serving other nations as mercenaries. Hungarians embrace stories like Lehel and alike.Look at the map of the Hungarian invasions. This is not from the time they were looking for a homeland but after. I am not taking sides here, I am simply saying that the Hungarian propaganda loves to leave out some important facts of Hungarian history. (Including the various marriages with “non-Hungarians” for the best financial interest of the ruling class.)
10th Century Hungarian Invasions (I just love to see this next to the maps that shows how the Muslims tried to invade Europe.)comment image

bimbi
Guest
Webber: I don’t think that Mr. Harnad is talking about “the Muslim heritage” but rather is, not unreasonably, expressing concern over what can be seen as the likelihood of the (further) spread in Europe of what can be described as “militant Islam”. It is not necessary, surely, to list the violent attacks in several European countries that have been perpetrated in recent years under the name of Islam. In my view it is certainly appropriate to be concerned about such growth. The inter-linking of religion with political action is not seen as acceptable and appropriate in western European countries. Thus we would be well-advised to follow policies that make this separation crystal-clear and sharp. The separation of church and state must be incorporated into EU policy and EU state constitutions and by this I mean every church whatsoever. Here there can be no room for choice. Thus practitioners of any and every religion must fund their own activities – one would suggest with the exclusion of external funding, either in the construction of buildings or in the training of officers of the church – receiving no subsidies directly or indirectly from the national government. Nor should religious organizations have a… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Bimbi – you wrote: “The inter-linking of religion with political action is not seen as acceptable and appropriate in western European countries.” Actually, and unfortunately…. that’s not really true of Western Europe. The separation of church and state is an American thing. In w. Europe, I understand that only France has a similar legal tradition (even down to bans on mentioning religion and wearing religious symbols in state schools) – for similar revolutionary reasons. A few examples: If you go into an Italian state school, you will normally see a crucifix on the wall. And Catholic priests still give religious lessons in Italian schools. Mussolini was the last Italian leader to effect a serious separation of church and state, and even he failed (thank God?) The head of the Anglican Church is the Queen, and while there has been much movement towards disestablishment in that monarchy, that church still is THE Church of England, and there still is a law that the Monarch cannot be Catholic (it would be a very strange thing indeed if the head of a Protestant church were Catholic, or Hindu, or Muslim). In Sweden, the state church was and remains Lutheranism. Again, while there has… Read more »
bimbi
Guest
Webber: Sorry, but I would stand by my assertion that: “the inter-linking of religion with political action is not seen as acceptable and appropriate in western European countries.” You are of course correct in the examples that you quote and the position of Queen Elizabeth and the Church of England is as you state but I would qualify it as being anachronistic. The Church of England does not wield political power in any direct sense, but may be happy to do so behind the scenes (although there are a lot of seats in the House of Lords reserved for bishops). One might say that the church and state have achieved a quiet modus vivendi amounting to a de facto separation. I suspect a similar situation exists in other countries that you mention, although I do not wish to argue the point. What I advocated was a formal statement of separation of church and state which, one would hope, would serve to temper and limit the ambitions of those who would pursue an active role for their own religion to the detriment of others in political affairs. That Europe would have to take a deep breath to achieve such a change… Read more »
Webber
Guest

People are always problematic.
Some of the people who “worry” about Islam so virulently (far more virulently than you), have an agenda that is just as violent as what they denounce. They have a LOT of fellow travelers, even people who should know better (when they’re using the same slogans about Muslims as the BNP, the KKK, or Jobbik, something is surely wrong).
As to faith and state –
Apply the laws of the land rigorously and without regard to faith (or color, or gender), and you cannot go far wrong.

gdfxx
Guest

I am not sure how the Muslim religion has ALWAYS been the second largest religion in Russia when the Muslim religion started about 700 years after the Christian one.

Webber
Guest

Yes, I might modify “always” and say more vaguely but correctly “since the Tsars took so many Muslim lands over the centuries.”

But you are wrong about something – just look up when Russia came into being.
Russian nationalists would generally date it to the 9th century (2 centuries after the establishment of Islam) with the rise of Kievan Rus, but that is highly disputable, because that state was utterly destroyed and there was no single successor to it. Some historians would say Russia was founded in the 12th century, with the establishment as an independent entity of Moscow. Others would say the correct date is 1283, when the Principality of Moscow became a proper state.

gdfxx
Guest

OK, not Russia, the territory that is Russia today.

Webber
Guest

Good. The territory of Russia today includes some lands that were Islamic but never Christian, and some that were first Christian and then became Islamic. Both sorts were Islamic before they were taken by Russia..

Member

@Webber, It’s not just religious militancy and extremism that is no asset (in any flavor: Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Sikh, or what-have-you) but the subordination of women, ritual slaughter of animals, genital mutilation, and other hardly innocuous that dark-age “traditions” cults tend to cherish and preserve… But, as I said, with freedom and democracy there is always the hope of secularization — or at least the detoxification that the other native dark-age cults seem to have undergone in Europe across the centuries since the proud days of the Crusades and the Inquisition…

Webber
Guest

Stevan –
Is this de-secularized enough for you?

If that’s too Westernized for you to take seriously,
is THIS wholly Arab show secularized enough for you?

What more do you want? This, too, is their culture.

Member

@Webber, you’re (rightly) defending against racists, xenophobes, ethnocenrtists, Christian fundamentalists, alarmists, nationalists, etc. But you’re misdirecting your defences is you apply them to me! I am against all those things too, and for freedom of religion, and for humanely receiving the refugees! My critique of religious irrationality applies to all creeds, and, in particular, each one’s tenets when they are practiced in opposition to human rights and democracy. Islam has quite a few of those; but Christianity has plenty too (e.g., opposition to birth-control or abortion; creationism in schools, etc.). (And you certainly won’t win me over to anything at all with sports and pop culture, apart from defending freedom of culture and sport too — as long as it does not entail hurting any sentient creature…)

Webber
Guest

Stevan – I did not want to win you over to anything. I only wanted to demonstrate to you and anyone who read your posts with concerns about Muslim immigrants that there is a secular side to the Muslim world, and there are women, such as Haifa Wehbe of this video (twice divorced – a HUGE star) who are not only not wearing a veil, but who are openly expressing their sexuality, just as there are such women in the West.
I don’t care at all for the music. Basketball bores me. But both videos I posted are, in my view, perfect at demonstrating that secularization has happened in the Arab world among Muslims. These people don’t need to learn anything from us about that.

spectator
Guest
You are so right! (Again, but this is beside of the point) Its time to someone will infuse Europe with some (kind of) life, after the centuries of practical and theoretical inbreeding! No, I’m not joking. Just look at ‘us’ from the outside – OK, imagine it -and you’ll see the mass of people, mostly resembles to each other, without any need to get better, or even strive for improvement. We are just so perfect as we are, it hardly ever can got any better, – or thereabout. Pure crap, and you know that too. Just give it a try and think about it, what other possibilities we may have to rejuvenate our bloodline in this old continent, without eliminate – again – millions of the citizens around Europe? Yes, you guessed right! Give another effort and think again: why is the US (up to now) is, or appears to be more successful during the last 250 years? (About as long there is US at all) Because they managed to come up with the idea of letting the different people live together, without the need of full assimilation! It means, quite simply, that when you aren’t obliged to take up… Read more »
Guest

It appears Le Pen believes Europe is now experiencing the ‘barbarian invasions’ all over again with Muslims the new ‘barbarians’ acting as ‘freeloaders, rapists and terrorists’. It seems clear to me that with incendiary verbiage like that Europe is getting ready to slit its own throat.

Le Pen will perhaps rue the day when those rabid exhortations to directly pit segments of many European societies against each other become a deadly reality. Europe really with rhetoric like that sows the seeds of her destruction. This would appear to be the next agenda after ‘invasion’. What a calamity awaits if attitudes like Le Pen’s get real traction as top of mind in political discourse…..and get acted out.

Guest

Rikard, is this LePen the father?
Afaik he’s been thrown out of “his” party by his daughter (who is now the boss) because of his extreme views …

Webber
Guest

Wolfi – when it comes to Muslims, the daughter is no better than the father. She has only dumped the anti-Semitism (hence her rejection of her father), but keeps the hatred for Muslims.

Guest

wolfi..Marine…of National Front in France…she seems to pull no punches.

Webber
Guest

Rikard, I agree – I’d even say that> The part of Europe represented by Le Pen (and Orban) is not getting ready to slit its own throat, it is getting ready to slit Muslims’ throats and burn them alive (fire bombings of refugee hostels), and I am horrified to see some people adding to the inflammatory rhetoric whose parents or grandparents were the victims of similar European ideas.

Guest

Re: ‘The part of Europe represented by Le Pen (and Orban) is not getting ready to slit its own throat’

Maybe you may have to help me there. I am only one man. Are you saying that VO really indubitably shares the same intellectual motif of race and cultural relations with MLP? I figure he is just one who doesn’t believe in much of what he says since his approach is always a gaze purely on the wielding and holding of ‘powah’. We can see all that in his tactical and strategic way of practicing high national politics. He seems to be a man of very practical politics….come hell or high water. He’s like a modern day Thomas Cromwell, that ‘aide’ to Henry VIII.

Webber
Guest

Cromwell? I’d say not Thomas, but Oliver (look at how he treated Catholics, particularly the Irish), only Orban isn’t 1/2 as powerful or as talented.

Guest

Re:’..Orban..isn’t powerful or as talented.

Hey I’d go with that.

You know VO would seem to be of the type he ostensibly hates. Why? Because in his use and appeal to the masses on Christisn ‘principles’ he is just the same as those in ISIS or others who are very very poor excuses for a representation of humanity where they use religion to be the stuff that gets ramroded down to be blown off in policies of state. Religion then simply becomes a dumb tool of state and as we see in ISIS a calamitous situation for humanity and the civilization we create. Hungary with VO’s ‘religious’ attitudes is great kindling for big big tuz in the motherland.

Matej Malkar
Guest

I find this art installation beautiful.

Guest

By watching this documentary https://youtu.be/IgpCVjFuw-4 I realized again how lucky we are that Orban heading this tiny and insignificant nation.

[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgpCVjFuw-4&w=420&h=315%5D

Guest

`Shouldn’t you watch a documentary about Horthy?

spectator
Guest

Sarcasm noted!

gdfxx
Guest
tappanch
Guest

9-day inflows.

Greece [Sep 14, Sep 23] = 69,045 (Source: UNHCR)
Hungary [Sep 17, Sep 26] = 66,143 (Source: Hungarian police)

tappanch
Guest

UNHCR is present on the following Greek islands:

Lesvos
Chios
Samos
Leros
Kos
Rhodes

In addition, health care is provided to the migrants/refugees on

Kalymnos
Tilos
Symi

tappanch
Guest

The breakdown of arrivals of migrants/refugees [Jan 1, Sep 25]

Lesvos 199,311
Chios 43,695
Samos 48,728
Agathonisi 3,554
Leros 13,207
Kalymnos 5,773
Kos 40,165
Symi 4,456
Tilos 1,101

month 2015 [2014]
Jan 1,690 [ 955]
Feb 2,945 [1,001]
Mar 7,634 [1,501]
Apr 13,133 [1,257]
May 18,444 [1,703]
Jun 30,717 [3,198]
Jul 51,951 [3,927]
Aug 107,843 [6,742]
Sep 134,037 (through Sep 25) [7,454] (through Sep 30)

Children: 21%
Women: 13%
Men: 66%

Source: UNHCR

tappanch
Guest

So we can see that 90.1% of the migrants/refugees land on one of the following 4 islands:

Lesvos 54.1%,
Samos 13.2%,
Chios 11.9%,
Kos 10.9%,
while all other landing places receive 9.9%.

In other words, if the European Union declared the 4 [or 9] islands above not part of the Union for asylum purposes, the migration would be reduced by 90% [or 98%]

gdfxx
Guest

Today I listened to a PRI (Public Radio International) program, called The World. A large portion of the program dealt with the refugee crisis. Among other segments they had a report from Izmir, Turkey. There is a daily scheduled ferry that transports people between Lesbos in Greece and a point in Turkey, a couple of hours from Izmir. The ferry, usually half empty, goes back and forth, in an half an hour one-way, for a fare of 10 Euros. In the meantime thousands of refugees take rubber boats, paying 1,500 Euros/person and risking their lives to do the same trip. When the reporter asked the question: why don’t they just go on the ferry, the answer was: because when one travels on the ferry, there are passport controls on both ends and the refugees do not have the right passports.

It sounds like a Kafka novel.

wpDiscuz