The Orbán government’s anti-immigrant stance

Although many studies show that immigration has a positive effect on economic growth, the Orbán government is dead set against allowing foreigners to settle in Hungary. It is not just against the immigration of refugees from the Middle East and Africa but against any immigration coming from outside of the European Union, including some of the most developed nations in the world. Back in May the Ministry of Economy reduced its immigrant quota, which is now calculated on the basis of the perceived need for workers in the private sector in a given year. That figure divided by twelve will determine the monthly quota. Previously, the calculation was based on all employment opportunities, both private and public. If we consider that doctors, who are in short supply, are public sector employees, we can begin to see the concerted effort on the part of the government to reduce labor opportunities for anyone coming from outside the EU.

As for those refugees who have decided to stay in Hungary, the Orbán government isn’t making their integration easy. In fact, the little earlier governments provided, like free Hungarian lessons, has been discontinued. After these people get permission to stay, it is the few civic groups that try to help the newcomers. These groups’ survival depends entirely on EU grants. The leaders of these organizations complain bitterly that the government’s “integration strategy” can be summarized as “you solve it!” According to one of the organizers, what they are able to do can be compared to “throwing rose petals on war-torn cities.”

Three major civic groups are trying to take care of these newcomers, but they are unable to handle more than about 100 individuals at a time. They are being financed by the Norwegian Civic Fund and the Asylum, Migration and Integration Fund (AMIF) of the European Union. One of the groups, Artemisszió, concentrates on bridging cultural differences. Jövőkerék’s focus is on employment. Menedék’s work mostly involves improving the newcomers’ language skills. Of course, taking care of the needs of 100 individuals is a drop in the bucket even in the small foreign community of Hungary.

Learning the language is of paramount importance, and since there are no more free government-sponsored Hungarian lessons, most organizations involved with immigrants began offering language courses of their own. Since professional language instructors don’t come cheap, volunteers must take their place. And there are problems even with school-age children since the Hungarian school system is not at all prepared to handle foreign students. Apparently the problem is not with the children but with some of the principals and teachers. If a teacher is open and accepting, the foreign student’s integration into her new community is a great deal easier. But considering the xenophobia prevalent in Hungarian society as a whole, there is a good possibility that the student will be taught by someone who wishes she had never set foot in Hungary and who is not about to encourage her to outshine any of her Hungarian classmates.

Interestingly enough, finding a job doesn’t seem to be as difficult as one would think. Some of the participants in these programs land a job even before the program ends. As one of the civic leaders pointed out, immigrants usually are more enterprising, confident, and daring. Ready to meet new challenges. The timid, the fearful would never dare to leave.

And indeed, I read an interesting article in Bloomberg with the title “What Hungary can teach Europe about absorbing immigrants.” Intriguing, isn’t it? According to the article, “in Hungary, foreign-born workers, far from living on the fringes of society, are more likely to be employed than native-born Hungarians. In 2013, the last for which statistics are available, 67.9 percent of the foreign-born aged 15 to 64 had jobs, vs. 58.2 percent of the native-born in that age range.” As the graph shows, Hungary’s performance is spectacular, especially compared to other European countries.

immigrant workersOf course, among the immigrant workers are many ethnic Hungarians from neighboring countries, mostly from Romania. But Hungary’s historical experience shows a fantastic ability to absorb and assimilate large groups of non-Magyar speakers with ease. I know, some of you will say “Yes, but they didn’t come from an entirely different culture.” But they did. I am specifically thinking of Orthodox Jews who arrived in large numbers from Polish Galician shtetls. They spoke Yiddish, and their culture bore no resemblance to the majority culture in Hungary. Yet most of them a generation later spoke the language and became ardent Hungarian patriots.

Although studies show that immigration is imperative for economic growth, the Orbán government seems to be adamant: Hungary is for Hungarians. Viktor Orbán is making a huge mistake. The economic consequences of this policy will be serious. Hungary’s economic growth will permanently lag that of other countries in the region.

I know that Angela Merkel is criticized at home and abroad for encouraging immigration into Germany. Those who oppose allowing large numbers of people coming from different cultures to settle in the country point to Germany’s past difficulties with Turkish immigrants. But Merkel stressed that Germany will handle these immigrants very differently from the way it dealt with the earlier guest workers. In the 1960s and 1970s the German government looked upon them as temporary laborers who some day will go back to their homeland. There was no attempt to integrate them into German society. Merkel vows that this time it will be different. Germany will do its part to make the immigrants an integral part of German society and, in turn, the new immigrants will be expected to conform to the norms of the majority society. Indeed, this is the right way. It will be good for Germany and good for the new immigrants. This is what Hungary should do. After long years of cultural isolation the country should open its doors to the new world that is inevitably coming.

Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
exTor
Guest

For personal reasons, I got in touch with Deborah Rogers, who earlier conveyed to Éva her appreciation of the quality of Hungarian Spectrum.

https://www.initiativeforequality.org

She is the President of Initiative for Equality, which “is a global network of advocates and community members in over 115 countries, working towards a world in which social, economic and political inequalities are substantially reduced and no one is excluded from decision-making.”

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MH7LHCD

She invites those interested to take part in a short online survey on the refugee/migrant situation in EITHER your current or former country of residence. Deborah also invites the HS membership to listen to interviews she gave on KPFA regarding the Hungarian refugee situation. She was in Keleti Station (arriving from Prague) at the height of the events there.

https://kpfa.org/episode/flashpoints-september-2-2015
(minutes 1–20)

https://kpfa.org/episode/flashpoints-september-10-2015
(minutes 11–39)

This post is entirely my initiative.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Lajos Renner
Guest

90 countries (not 115) according to the interview with Deborah S Rogers … pay attention to details … as the devil is in the details. She said at 5’04” in the recording “the people were trapped there (Keleti) by to EU policy that Hungary was at least partially trying to implement”. Nasty Orban….
The interview is 26 days old, lots of water flown down the Danube since. Irrelevant by now. There are fresher reasons to bash Orban ..

Member

Another tidbit about immigrants in the Land Of The Gulash. About a month ago there was an article in the Economist about migration. One chart showed the education gap between immigrant and non-immigrant children (15 year olds, math score). Turul Land (Hungary) was the only country where the immigrants outscored the natives. Scroll down in the article below for the chart. Of course this is also partly because of the slipping education system during the Orban government.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21662597-asylum-seekers-economic-migrants-and-residents-all-stripes-fret-over-their-place-looking

Lajos Renner
Guest

Bravo, Nasty Orban. Before him education was best on the Earth … during Kadar yes. But than came Antal, Horn, Medgyessy, Gyurcsany, all of them improved the quality of education (Magyar Balint the best |Minister of Education in the last Century forced the US system on the teachers in Hungary) and than came Orban to destroy everything his predecessors built in order to show the World how stupid native Hungarian children can be … I looked for the OECD average of the USA and Canada but it seems there was not enough space in spite of the fact that the chart is based on Word wide evaluation. Strange … two most important countries are left out. I wonder why? I heard from a friend living in Toronto that the ratio of highly educated professionals are in total imbalance in favor of students of Asian origin. What does it tell you? How is it in the USA?

Member

Is it because the USA and Canada are not European countries Lajos, and not part of the European immigration crises? Would that be the reason they are not included. They even left the USA and Canada off the European Immigration map! Australia is also missing, as so is China!

Lajos Renner
Guest
Eva I am amused. This article, whilst does not miss any opportunity to shoot at Orban has some positive elements as well. No not for the current Government of Hungary. I wonder if anybody on this site ever will realize the (unfortunate) fact that Hungary has not been prepared for such a logistical nightmare as this mass invasion caused. Germany has 60 years of experience, Canada and the USA century long well-oiled mechanism to handle immigration on large scale, but Hungary has never received such a massive number of immigrants. Not only the Government but the whole society is unprepared and therefore unable (not to mention unwilling) to deal with immigration at such an intense level. Blames were laid for food and shelter shortage at Keleti on the the Hungarian Government. True it was lagging. However, nobody mentioned that the refugee centers were prepared but the migrants chose to take matter into their own hand rather than allowing the Government to conduct the actions. Also the police got very bad reviews for handling the foreigners. Anybody realised that both the regular police and the security police consist of Hungarian-only speaking members? (I know they should speak several foreign languages, but… Read more »
Member

Save it Lajos … The Orban government had two years to prepare.

We don’t hate. We criticize. Any governments. This is how we love Hungary.

petofi
Guest

@Lajos

Yes, Orban is due a lot of credit…unfortunately, it’s mostly in offshore banking!

Member

Mr Renner.

I myself been a refugee like the refugees of these days. I see a lot of people have a lot of opinion about refugees without expirience or even without meeting a refugee.
When I post my thoutghts on some site, what I got back is mostly hate and spit.
BUT, I have a lot of expiriences of muslims and other cultures. I got to say that my expiriences are mostly very positiv. How can OV deem a culure with no experience of the same? How can he say in my name that “we hungarians decided …”, when I WANT to live in a multicultural sociaty?

Member

I think we should listen to a muslim, how he understands islam and how our understanding is in relation to that. I think myself that islamic culture CAN bee compatibel with the western one. I recomend to listen to this great man.

https://www.ted.com/talks/imam_feisal_abdul_rauf#

Member

And this is VO’s understanding of the refuggees and islam.

do56
Guest

Unfortunate choice.

The imam is a master of deceit.

Do not believe one of his words.

There are enlightened great Muslims. But not this imam.

Member

Lajos Renner, quoting Deborah S Rogers: “the people were trapped there (Keleti) by to EU policy that Hungary was at least partially trying to implement”.
At least. Partially. Trying.
Of course, so far the EU has shown itself spectacularly unable to deal with this crisis. But I still don’t understand how Orbán, amidst his usual EU-bashing, can claim that Hungary is “implementing EU policies” (while letting the crisis escalate, taking spectacularly poor care of the refugees – on purpose? – and passing laws which violate international human rights agreements) and “protecting Europe” (while passing the flood of refugees on to its neighbours). And why so many people even abroad are praising and congratulating Orbán for “consistent” policy.

Kenguru Dzsó
Guest

Zsolt Bayer says maybe Hungary could welcome 24,000 Syrian refugees after all.

I guess Bayer is preparing the believers that the victorious Orban will be forced to accept some Syrians.

Though I guess Orban and Fidesz-Jobbik will make sure any Syrians would not be too happy here. Tormenting the refugees will be great fun as usual.

tappanch
Guest

Here is my breakdown of the latest (July) employment data from the Statistical Office (KSH):

They counted 4,251.0 thousand “employed”

enterprises: 45.12%
self-employed 28.02% (also employees in work places with less then 5 employees)
state employees: 16.60%
fostered workers: 5.33%
working abroad: 2.66% (but counted in the Hungarian statistics)
employees in non-profits: 2.23%

tappanch
Guest

Breakdown of the 15 to 74 year old population, 7.539.2 thousand people,

my calculation from educational data, from Social Security Authority , and from Statistical Office data:

working in enterprises 25.44%
working as self-employed 15.82% (also employees in work places with less then 5 employees)
working for the state: 9.36%
working in non-profits: 1.26%

working abroad: 1.50% (but counted in the Hungarian statistics)

retired but younger than 75: 15.16%
high school students: 6.25%
college & university students: 2.88%

officially unemployed: 4.03%
fostered workers: 3.00%
hidden unemployed and others: 15.30% (!!)

tappanch
Guest

The official unemployment rate is the ratio

(officially unemployed)/(officially unemployed+”employed”) =303.8/(303.8+4251.0)

= 6.67%,

where “employed” includes the fostered workers and some of the people working abroad.

The ratio

(officially unemployed + fostered workers) / (officially unemployed + fostered workers + working in Hungary)= (303.8+226.1)/(303.8+226.1+3911.3)

= 11.93%

The number would be much larger if we included the hidden unemployed.

Juhasz János Robert
Guest

Miert nem mondsz igazat,tappanch…a munkanelküliek szama momentan 6,7 procent, no 11,93 c, formidabile difference,
mon amie…

Guest

You don’t get it:
Those közmunkás people are not really “employed”, that’s why they could/should be added to the official unemployment figure of 6.67% …

PS:
This reminds me a bit of the Nazi RAD = Reichsarbeitsdienst, they used a similar strategy …

PPS:
Do you know how much these “fostered workers” earn every month? Compare this to the unemployment benefits and the official minimum wage – and the real wages!

Nádas
Guest

Whether or not immigrants from the current wave would be good for the Hungarian economy is really just a moot point. An overwhelming majority of Hungarians simply do not want them settling in their country in a sudden, large influx, and they certainly don’t want such a “solution” imposed on the country from the outside.

Today’s Washington Post has an article about the small town of Gabcikovo (Bős, in Hungarian) in southwestern Slovakia, where some 500 Syrians will be settled temporarily awaiting a decision in their applications for residence in Austria. (It seems Austria can’t even offer short-term housing within its own borders, so overwhelmed is it by the number of refugees.) A referendum on the issue was forced by a citizen’s petition, and with a 60% turnout, 97% of those voting opposed even temporarily giving shelter to the Syrians. As it happens, the population of Gabcikovo is almost entirely ethnic Hungarian, but the results would probably be similar anywhere else in Slovakia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-small-slovakian-town-held-a-vote-on-accepting-refugees-97-percent-said-no/2015/09/28/1d29b1c0-6168-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html

tappanch
Guest

In the first 28 days of September,

the UNHCR has counted 148,000 migrants landing in Greece from Turkey,
the Hungarian police “captured” (and sent to Austria) 174,000 extra-EU country crossers without visa and/or ID,

Probably more aged data:
the Austrians think that 160,000 migrants went to Germany through Austria, while
the Germans’ number is 150,000, but this number has been tallied since September 13 only.

http://444.hu/2015/09/29/150-000-menedekkero-erkezett-nemetorszagba-miota-ujra-ellenorzik-a-hatarokat/

tappanch
Guest

The Germans plan to make most of the benefits non-cash from November 1.

tappanch
Guest

[Jan 1, Sep 28] of 2015:

to Greece by sea: 382,756 [UNHCR]
to Hungary : 280,720 [police]

tappanch
Guest
tappanch
Guest

Economics news.

A.
Minister Varga: 18% to 23% of the incriminated Volkswagen engines were manufactured in Győr.

Car manufacturing [by foreign companies] accounts for 13% of the Hungarian export and 22% of the industrial production.

http://www.portfolio.hu/gazdasag/varga_mar_nem_akar_ekkora_fuggoseget_az_autoipartol.4.220258.html

B.
The EU will send 0.7 billion euros soon from the funds withheld so far.

http://www.portfolio.hu/unios_forrasok/gazdasagfejlesztes/csepreghy_210_milliard_forint_zudulhat_most_magyarorszagra.3.220274.html

The European Money counter stands at 8.207 TRILLION forints. At today’s exchange rate it equals 26.1 BILLION euros.

http://palyazat.gov.hu/

tappanch
Guest

Remark:
The speed of the EU counter is set to about 1 million forints a second = 31.557 trillion forints a year, which is a little bit of wishful thinking.

István
Guest
Responding to Lajos Renner and Nadas, first off I agree that the EU and not just Hungary were overwhelmingly unprepared for the migration crisis. Germany only now is establishing interment camps to hold emigrants likely to be deported. Between 1892 and 1954, more than twelve million immigrants passed through the U.S. immigration portal at Ellis Island, on average over that period of time only 2% were deported back to their homeland from the Island. One of my grandfathers and great uncles passed through Elis Island going from the Island directly to Chicago. My mother’s ancestral family included Hungarians that fought in the US Civil War and simply got off the boat with no formal review at all. It is also true that overwhelming majority of Hungarians simply do not want refugees settling in their country. The same was true believe it or not in the USA too, there were nativist riots against immigrants in many cities across America. One such riot is depicted in the 2002 film Gangs of New York. The USA is inherently multi-cultured, but to be honest far less multilingual than Europe. Eva makes some great points about the historic multicultural nature of Hungary, as we know… Read more »
bimbi
Guest

Istvan says:
“…there is a profound level of naivety among many well meaning and humane liberals…”

“The presumption of many liberals are…” (sic)

“…there is a propensity for liberals…”

Hey, Pista, just tell us what YOUR view is without telling us your (irrelevant) ideas about what you think other people think – they can speak for themselves. Otherwise you just become

Pista the blah-blah man. Boring as well as irrelevant.

István
Guest

Bimbi I have repeatedly indicated my position that the admission of refugees will have to be racially limited in the EU, and also that as the costs increase for the EU states those policies will be pursued.

Member

“racially limited”? What race do you have in mind?

István
Guest

The auto spell system did that sorry, meant radically. A dangerous thing that system.

exTor
Guest

Racially limited ??? How does that work without being racist, Steve? Isn’t that catering to reactionariness? Isn’t that Orbánism writ large? Does that mean unlimited immigration would still be allowable if the immigrants were somehow white?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Tyrker
Guest

I think he meant to write radically limited. Maybe he just forgot to turn off the stupid autocorrect feature on his phone or tablet or whatever it is he’s using.

exTor
Guest

You know Tyrker, you may be right. I posted because I was stunned by what I had read. It didn’t sound like István, but sometimes you just never know. The thing is, I never send anything out without proofing it. I’m phobic about mistakes, and still they get out there, sometimes. In my meticulousness, I even reread my rereads. LOL, too much perfectionism.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member

I do send them out. Haha Especially from my phone. It is extremely hard to respond via Smartphone. When I scroll back, often I loose my whole post, so I just press send and hope for the best! LOL

gdfxx
Guest

“It is also true that overwhelming majority of Hungarians simply do not want refugees settling in their country. The same was true believe it or not in the USA too, there were nativist riots against immigrants in many cities across America. ”

According to the press there was a period when places of work had signs that said: Jews, Irish and dogs should not apply.

exTor
Guest

You should’ve let the grammar mistake slide (sicless), bimbi.

István [here] and the other one [Istvan, without an accent] are thoughtful contributors to this forum and I always appreciate reading their inputs.

Pista is putting his view out to you, albeit indirectly. That’s my read of him. Remember, he was in the military, so there might be residual sympathy for authority, even if it resides in the body of a racist politico hellbent on moving Magyarország further to the right.

That notwithstanding, István makes some good points re immigration. I would like Éva to do a future article sometime on how a leftwing government would have handled these events.

For one, I know (or at least I hope I know) that a left government would not embark upon polarizing the populace, turning it against immigrants, using inflammatory billboards to delivery poison like the Fidesz racists did.

MAGYARKOZÓ

István
Guest

The two are the same, just different computer access points.

exTor
Guest

Thanx Stevie. One time I thought so, then I wasn’t so sure.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

OT

Re: Istvan’s ‘Gangs of New York’

Did a check and and I have to say my upper East Side neighborhood around 1911 was as bad as Hell’s Kitchen. The ‘thugs’ had great organization so much around the blocks that they actually had placards posted on lampposts near old ‘car barns’. Titled as

Notice
COPS KEEP OUT!
No policeman will hereafter
Be allowed on this block. By order of
THE CAR BARN GANG

Yes pretty tough around here in those days. You did not want to meet up with Little Augie, Bill the Butcher, Dopey Benny and Kid Dropper..;-)..

Guest

Interesting stat there from the Economist on foreign-born vs native employment in VO’s xenophobic nation. On the foreign-born I’d wonder where they ranked on income quintiles and other socioeconomic variables. Perhaps there can be some surprises there showing indeed that there are positives in the immigrant experience. Now I’d assume if they are getting paid very well then they must be pretty good contributors to the country’s economic and social welfare and benefit Hungary.

And on Magyar xenophobia and the fear of the ‘other’: Understandable in the nation’s psyche considering the country’s turbulent history where they were used as a door mat but unfortunate that she evinces an apparently automatic conditioned response to apparent ‘threats’ that have origins going back millennia. And not only that it is deleterious where xenophobia is deliberately fomented among the population. Alas the country needs that like a hole in the head. Fear of course has great influence on human behavior. Europe seems to be enveloped in it.

Guest

Re: Istvan …’It is also true that overwhelming majority of Hungarians simply do not want refugees settling in their country’

And it sure looks like the refugees don’t want any part of Magyarorszag. That’s free-expression of preference and a diss as well. Reminds me what I was told about my grandmother and grandfather. They came in the very early 1900’s but high-tailed it back to their falu and their pastures with cows and chickens. No USA for them. My grandmother apparently just didn’t like it here. Not sure exactly why but I can guess considering the era. Fair enough. Theme: all potential immigrants shop for that ‘Shangr-la!’ but some countries don’t take it out on them if they reject them. I’d think The country’s non-acceptance is also bound up with being rejected as well.

Member

You mean the Hungarian and the American attitudes toward immigrants aren’t so much different after all because your granny didn’t like it in America?

Maybe you are right and not the xenophobia, racism and selfishness are the reasons.

Webber
Guest

No, he means that people who leave their homelands have always chosen to settle where they want (it happened in his grandmother’s time).

Guest
Re: ‘No, he means that people who leave their homelands have always chosen to settle where they want (it happened in his grandmother’s time)’ Indeed there’s choice in the decision to move. In Hungary’s case it would appear they are quite sensitive that the country is not exactly a ‘magnetic’ destination. With my grandmother, the US wasn’t for her. She took a bon voyage but nevertheless the country didn’t slam the door on her way out. In a way that worked for me since I did get to have a perspective of both the ‘old’ and ‘new’ worlds. Magyarorszag I’d suggest has lost a bit of it. It would help if she comes to the realization that ‘it ain’t Kansas anymore’. That’s a fairy tale gone. Really the ‘ancien regime’ needs to be torn down. And finally on ‘immigration’ I’d say if some of the energy, courage, determination, intelligence and dynamism used by the Magyars who came here in ’56 to make a new life and perhaps re-invent themselves here in the US and Canada managed to flow into Hungarian society by some immigrants well it could be the start of a great change. And it would be a much… Read more »
Juhasz János Robert
Guest

3day – 26,27,28 sept. 24.ooo migrants -enorm…

dvhr
Guest

A pity that the comments to “The rule book of ELTE’s Rector Magnificus” are closed, here is some more on the anti-Israel activities at CEU: http://www.hetek.hu/hatter/201509/budapestrol_bojkottalnak_izraelt

do56
Guest

There is a crowd of Palestinian scholars on US university.
Their job is to spread deceit.
The ordinary Palestinians are poorly served by these agitators.
Their goal is to rob Israel and the West. Putin is their best ally.

tappanch
Guest

Plans of the German government for the asylum applicants from November 1.

They calculate with 0.8 million asylum applicants,
give themselves 5 months to determine whether someone is a refugee or a rejected migrant, and allocate to the Länder 670 euros/(applicant*month) for accommodation, food and health care. (cost: 2.68 billion euros)

For the care of the unaccompanied minors, the federal government will pay 350 million euros per year.

Increased building of social housing 0.5 billion euros for 4 years.

European applicants from outside EU will be rejected, Syrians, Iraqis and Eritreans accepted.

The acceptance rate for Afghans & Pakistanis was 43.1% [11.8%] in the first eight months of the year.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlinge-bundesregierung-beschliesst-neues-asylgesetz-a-1055193.html

tappanch
Guest

If this is the full plan, then the German government intends to process 160,000 applicants a month (1.92 million a year) INDEFINITELY,

The number of accepted applicants would be around the MAGIC number of 0.8 million a year, if the ratios of the sending countries and the total number were not change.

This is because

30.2% (Syrians) + 5.1% (Iraqis) + 2.9% (Eritreans) + 0.431 * 6.8% (Afghans) + 0.118 * 1.8% (Pakistanis) = 41.3432 % [August 2015 ratios]

0.413432 * 1.92 million = 0.79296 million + some acceptance from other countries.

Of course, when Syrians, Iraqis, Eritreans, Afghans learn about this formula, their number and % will increase, so the number 0.8 million is the lower bound for the planned yearly absorption.

This also means that the German government plans to expel 1.1 million applicants a year. I doubt they will have the manpower and perseverance for this.

tappanch
Guest

1.1 million round trip tickets * 400 euros + 0.8 million one way tickets * 200 euros = only 600 million euros.

So if the German government intends to replenish its population by 1% a year, it could solve this by creating an airlift for 0.6 billion euros a year. This would have the added benefit of not destabilizing the SE European countries. 🙂

Garry Burke
Guest

Eva, you are missing the point. This is not orderly migration, this is a stampede. Incidentally, I am Australian and had absolutely no problem getting Hungarian residency. They treated my application sensibly and were welcoming. I think you are so anti-Orban that you are losing perspective.

exTor
Guest

Rather, you are missing the point, Garry Burke. We get it. There’s a flood of refugees (mostly) and some economic migrants who want to go to Germany, primarily. So, how does a (presumably) white man, who was treated “sensibly and [–] welcoming[ly]” compare to a Syrian who sees unreadable Hungarian billboards that say “Hungary is for Hungarians”?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member
Everyone is aware that this is “not orderly migration”. Most of those migrants are refugees by the way! As I did mention before the problem is not with establishing policies or to worry about how to handle this crises, but HOW Orban handles the crises. There is no need to treat other human beings as cattle. Why did you get such a special treatment? Were you a refugee? Why did so many people form Egypt got special treatment? You know the ones who actually used Hungary as their foot math to get entry to the EU? They purchased some bounds from Orban, so Orban’s government can stay afloat. I guess you have no problem with that. You have no problem with food being distributed to refugees as sending dogs to fetch? You have no problem with providing limited access to toilets? It does not bother you that any humane action Hungary did came from civilians, but Orban and his buddies tried to take full credits for it? It does not bother you that Orban pours money into his soccer dreams, while tries to take money away from exactly from he came civil organizations that treat refugees with respect? AGAIN, the… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

“Everyone is aware that this is “not orderly migration”. Most of those migrants are refugees by the way! ”

As I said multiple times, but those who don’t want to hear it, do not read it: according to a report in Klubradio’s Hetes Studio only 200,000 Syrian refugees are in refugee camps in Turkey. The rest of the two million or so refugees are all over Turkey, working, making a living. When they decide to move further, they do it mainly for economic reasons. This is the reality, whether Orban says it or not, whether we like it or not. Some here stated that refugees should have a right to decide where they would settle. I agree (although I think that every country should have a right to set its own conditions for accepting them). But once a refugee decided to settle in a country, started working, rented an apartment, I think when he decides that maybe another country could provide better living conditions, this is not a refugee anymore (in the sense the UN defines it).

Guest

Re: ‘The Hungarian birth rate’

Back in the Kadar years I’d think with ‘no room at the inn’ it made perfect sense why couples would think twice about other mouths to feed and having to figure out where they could get a place to live harmoniously and house them. Mr. Tarr I believe looked at that in one of his films. Maybe a sociological interpretation there. Today it would seem to be based on a psychological / philosophical approach to Hungarian life. How you view the world determines one’s reactions to it. There are other dimensions other than the material when involving satisfaction. I’d wonder if VO hears the tune.

Andras Szanto
Guest
There may be changes that are unexpected, either because of their content or because of their sheer size and dimensions, and need some time to be properly understood and treated by various segments of society. It seems that not a small part of the population in Hungary and other eastern European countries is not (yet?) prepared for seeing, e.g., the potential long-term benefits of immigration. One has also to reckon with the fact that it is perhaps better to be reasonably patient with the citizens of a given country in the sense that no one should advocate to push down their throat in a rush changes they are not yet willing to support – may be this approach is not fully incompatible with principles of parliamentary democracy. While various actions or the lack of them, and also the rhetoric and domestic-policy-focused propaganda about „defending Christianity and Europe”, etc., of the government have been and are unacceptable and reflect „philosophies” that were outdated even over 100 years ago, no one can deny that there may be very significant cultural, civilizational differences between the larger part of citizens of various European countries and some segments of immigrants. Refugees, immigrants, even tourists must… Read more »
exTor
Guest

Well-stated, Andras Szanto. I commend you on a broad even-handed synopsis of much of what is Hungary now. Your tomic post was more a novel than a missive.

Besides needing clearly delineable paragraph breaks, such as above, I dont have anything to focus on as being negative or inappropriate.

I feel that interreligious rivalries, alluded to just above the dw.com link, will not be a concern, except perhaps in certain areas in Germany.

You lost me on your concluding remark about insider information.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member

“While the right of all people to be followers of their religion must be respected, one would also like to tirelessly insist on full compliance with the principle that the practicing by newcomers or even by the citizens of the country of their religious faith and customs cannot and shall not result in the infringement of basic civil rights of other people” I wish you would send your comment to Orban.

Interesting enough the blog entry by Eva today is exactly about how Orban has total disregard of the citizens of his own country when it comes to religious freedom of customs. What makes this even more hard to digest is the basic knowledge of all Hungarians that Orban himself was an ardent atheist, who called out religious people in the Parliament. That was of course when he believed that being an atheist would serve his purpose better.

Can you explain to me what is the difference in trying to integrate newcomers into society, or reintegrate those who left the norm, who left respect of others behind?

gdfxx
Guest

“What makes this even more hard to digest is the basic knowledge of all Hungarians that Orban himself was an ardent atheist, who called out religious people in the Parliament. That was of course when he believed that being an atheist would serve his purpose better.”

I am not in the business of defending Orban. However, politicians (on the left and on the right) do things like this. USA President Obama declared when he was first running for office that marriage is defined as a union between one man and one woman. Then relatively recently his opinion “evolved” and he endorsed gay marriage. I guess at one point one opinion and another point another opinion served his purpose better.

As a legendary aunt (or uncle?) in my family used to be quoted: “Politics is a whore.”

Member

I would agree with you if this would be the only thing that Orban changed about. Yes, liberals become conservatives, believers become atheists, and so forth, but Orban made a career about “changing”. That is what populism is. Being a populist is not growing as a person, it is not about evolving, it is a in fact loosing ones self for a financial or social gain.

gdfxx
Guest

Wikipedia: “Populism is a political doctrine that appeals to the interests and conceptions (such as hopes and fears) of the general population, especially when contrasting any new collective consciousness push against the prevailing status quo interests of any predominant political sector.”

Webber
Guest

I agree with gdfxx on this.
The definition of populism he quoted is about right. I know the cognate word in Hungarian and some other languages is solely negative. The word populism in English, however, merely means appealing to the masses. Old aristocrats and the Federalists in the early US found that objectionable – in the sense of appealing to people’s base instincts. But the word in English retains the more neutral (for some democrats, positive) meaning too.
If a politician wishes to win an election, s/he must be a populist.

Oxford English Dictionary’s definitions online:
1. Support for the concerns of ordinary people.
2. The quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people.

Guest

Re: ‘As a legendary aunt (or uncle?) in my family used to be quoted: “Politics is a whore”‘

Agree politics can sometimes attract those who ‘sell out’. Behavior which more often than not puts the foxes in the hen house.

Andras Szanto
Guest

@Some1

Here is an answer to part of your questions; please guess 1) by whom and 2) quoted by whom:

„Merkel vows that this time it will be different. Germany will do its part to make the immigrants an integral part of German society and, in turn, the new immigrants will be expected to conform to the norms of the majority society. Indeed, this is the right way. It will be good for Germany and good for the new immigrants. This is what Hungary should do.”

Member
I do not understand the point you are making. Of course immigrants should integrate. What I find appealing is the idea that Orban already made up his mind that they will not integrate so he does not want them. That is the point my friend. Nobody said immigrants should not take on the standards of a their new country. Have you ever been in Toronto? No? Well, maybe you should come here. The most versatile society with hundreds of various cultures integrating. There are many different churches, restaurants, cultural events. There is a the Greek Festival, the Polish Festival, the Ukranian Festival, the Italian Festival. There are Jews and Arabs share their fence and helping to cut each other’s plants. Lovely sales girl with her face covered help my daughter to find the perfect top and helps her in the change room. Hungarians settled and some work in the Hungarian butcher does not speak English, and it is charming. In the Polish store nobody lectures the people that they should speak English. Andrew, come to Canada, enjoy, and take something back with you. Take back the acceptance, and get rid off your idea that with Hungarians with their x-ray vision… Read more »
Andras Szanto
Guest

@Some1

Unfortunately, I have never been to Toronto and I do not plan to go there in the foreseeable future.

But who knows? – perhaps I will get there once and enjoy my visit there.

However, I have spent many years in a few places outside of my country, both in the last and this millennium.

I have the impression that you might have perhaps mistakenly taken someone else’s opinion for mine.

Concerning my comments that I have actually and factually made, I would like to continue to stand behind them, but I am reading with the greatest interest the opinions of others’, including yours. I am thankful for the time you and others might spend on letting me know of your thoughts.

Janos Antal, Phd
Guest

Hungary is finished. Game over. The Muslims are attacking, infiltrating the nation and there’s no way out for the Christian majority. Soon the Mohammedans will have 10 children per family and that’s that. The Hungarians will end up like the Neanderthals, a footnote in history. It’s like a Christian meadow taken over by a Mohammedan forest over time. The only hope is Prime Minister Viktor Orban. Nobody else can save us but him. We need him, please liberals of the world, please Americans don’t hurt him. We Hungarians must unite behind him. Otherwise we are lost. The communists want the Mohammedans to enter Hungary and stay here. But we can’t have that. There’s no place for them here in Hungary. We are poor too. Let’s pray for Mr. Orban both in the Christian churches and in the jewish temples. Maybe we can still win, maybe.

tappanch
Guest

Is this a joke?

No sane migrant wants to stay in Hungary. And all of them are sane. 🙂

Mr Orban resisted the great migration for exactly 3 days. (Sept 15,16,17)
Since then, he expedites them to Austria at a feverish pace.

His current chief endeavor is to give away almost 10% of the agricultural land
to friends and family.

The rest is just propaganda from a liberal turned conservative turned extremist, an anti-religious turned Protestant turned Catholic chameleon klept’arch.

tappanch
Guest

1989: The first of appearance of the chameleon on a piece of state-financed art:
comment image

tappanch
Guest

The chameleon’s revenge:

The 761 Simicska towers, scattered in Budapest, which gave Fidesz a propaganda advantage in the 2010 and 2014 election, will be demolished soon.

http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/29/tarlos_ott_simicskatlanit_ahol_a_legjobban_faj/

Webber
Guest

Some1 – Minor correction: Orban didn’t decide anything about the possibility to integrate migrants. Orban realized that if he made a stink about refugees, if he had a poster campaign in Hungarian suggesting they want to settle in Hungary and take jobs from Hungarians, and if his media portrayed refugees as “economic migrants” and potential terrorists among whom there are “virtually no children”, then brutality toward them and rejecting them would be rewarded by a surge of popularity for Fidesz among the Hungarian populace.

Member

You are right.

exTor
Guest

Nothing to worry about, JA, PhD. In fact, you should be pleased. All those high-breeding Muslims will provide loads of offspring who will become good Magyars, just like the Roman Catholics, the Protestants, the atheists and anybody else living here. This shall be Hungary’s salvation. Praise be.

MAGYARKOZÓ

petofi
Guest

@exTor

“…good Magyars, just like the Roman Catholics, the Protestants, the atheists and anybody else living there.”

Jews didn’t come to mind, exTor?
Ah, yes, they must be among the ‘anybody else’.

Jews are never ‘anybody else’, sir; for one thing, they make up 2/3 of the nobel laureates of Hungary.

spectator
Guest

@Janos Antal
I honestly hope that you are a chemist who mixed up some stuff accidentally, and the fumes had this effect… I hoping too that this only temporary, and you’ll get better soon!
Best wishes!

Member

Good summary from Amb.A.Simonyi from a different perspective with the same conclusions: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andras-simonyi/viktor-orbans-great-oppor_b_8206324.html
I keep wondering all these years what he wants from the great VO?

Guest

Re: ‘He could do all this. But I am aware that in the end we might have to conclude what my good friend, former congressman Tom Lantos, used to say upon meeting mediocre politicians: Great talent, but he is perhaps not as smart as we thought.’

zoRRo..Thanks for this well-reasoned opinion by Mr.Simonyi on Orban’s next steps in dealing with the grave problems impinging on Hungary, Europe and the world itself. Perhaps we will see the kind of statesman that rises to confront those challenges. Mr. Simonyi is absolutely correct in noting that this is an ‘opportunity’ to reflect and return to the ‘ideals of freedom, democracy and modernization’ which are values worth much in moving these Magyar times to a positive future.

Maybe VO will listen to Mr. Simonyi and not to the fears within him and in the entire country’s heart. Another leader who found himself in the great cauldron of fire during the 40’s had a prescription: ‘the only thing to fear is fear itself’.

wpDiscuz