Viktor Orbán punishes his adversaries

It is dangerous to cross Viktor Orbán. Sooner or later he will get you, if necessary with the help of crooked judges. Here I will tell the story of three people whom Viktor Orbán has been hard at work trying to ruin. One of his foes was acquired only a few months ago when his old friend, Lajos Simicska, turned against him. The other two are Ferenc Gyurcsány and Ibolya Dávid, who have been on Orbán’s black list since at least 2005. These two did something that in Orbán’s book was unforgivable: they were responsible for his failure to win the 2006 national election.

Ibolya Dávid, leader of the Magyar Demokrata Fórum, became an enemy because of her refusal to run on the same ticket as Fidesz in 2006. She thus deprived Viktor Orbán of those extra votes that were necessary to form a Fidesz government under his premiership.

Gyurcsány’s “crime” was even greater. Orbán noticed early on that Gyurcsány was a talented politician who might be his political opponent one day. And indeed, in 2004 Gyurcsány became prime minister, which was bad enough. But when in the 2006 television debate Gyurcsány decisively beat him, Orbán’s dislike of the man turned into hatred. Orbán was humiliated, and never again was he willing to debate anyone at any time. I’m convinced that from this point on he began assiduously planning the ruination of Gyurcsány, which he has partially managed to achieve by his unrelenting character assassination of the former prime minister, from which he hasn’t been able to recover.

Orbán’s original plan most likely included sending Gyurcsány to jail, and it must have been a great source of frustration that he failed, at least thus far. But if he couldn’t incarcerate Gyurcsány, he could settle for second-best: jailing two officials of the government office that handled the sale of state properties, among them the one that involved a group of foreign businessmen who planned to build a huge casino and wellness complex at Lake Velence, the so-called Sukoro project. Today, in the culmination of a trial that resembled the show trials of the Stalinist period, the two officials were handed very stiff sentences. Miklós Tátrai, the CEO of the company, received four years, and Zsolt Császy, one of the department heads, received three and a half years. They will appeal the verdict.

Tonight, in an interview with ATV, Tátrai revealed that his lawyer had received an informal offer from one of the prosecutors: if Tátrai implicates Ferenc Gyurcsány, he will be acquitted. Since Gyurcsány in no way tried to influence their decision, he naturally refused even to contemplate the offer.

This was obviously a very important case for the Orbán government, and it was one of the first cases sent to a court outside of Budapest, in Szolnok. And the Budapest Appellate Court won’t rule on the case. The next round will be in Szeged. The case may end up in Strasbourg.

Ibolya Dávid, chairman of the right-of-center Magyar Demokrata Fórum (MDF), agreed to a coalition with Fidesz in 1998 and thus received the post of minister of justice in the first Orbán government. I might add that Fidesz, a macho party, makes no effort whatsoever to put women in leading positions either in the party or in the government. Dávid’s experience with Viktor Orbán and the Fidesz leadership between 1998 and 2006 must have been so negative that in 2006 MDF decided to brave the election on its own, despite the considerable pressure on them to support Viktor Orbán. To the great surprise of political commentators, Dávid’s moderate conservative party received  5.04% of the votes and could form a caucus with 11 members. If the MDF leadership had agreed to a joint ticket, Orbán could have formed a government with 107 members. The socialists (MSZP) and liberals (SZDSZ) won 103 seats.

From that point on, Orbán was out to get Ibolya Dávid and MDF. By 2010 he succeeded. MDF managed to get only 2.67% of the votes, and by now MDF is gone. The party was undermined from the inside. Fidesz offered all sorts of enticements, including financial rewards, to people in the MDF leadership who were ready to be secret agents of Fidesz and turn against Dávid. Unfortunately for Fidesz, as a side issue of another piece of Fidesz “dirty business,” which involved spying on the National Security Office, it came to light that Fidesz wanted to pay off a young MDF politician to run against Ibolya Dávid and thus split the party. This was in 2008. The court case has been dragging on ever since. Although Ibolya Dávid and Károly Herényi, the leader of the MDF caucus, were the victims, during the course of the trial they became the culprits. I wrote several articles on UD Zrt., the company Fidesz used to spy on the government, and how Fidesz turned the tables on the MDF leaders. After innumerable court appearances, today the judge decided to “reprimand” Dávid and Herényi, whatever that means. Surely, not even this kangaroo court could find them guilty. So they came up with something called “megróvás” (admonition/reprimand). Both the prosecution and the defense will appeal.

They are supposed to be removed altogether

They are supposed to be removed altogether

And finally, we have the case of Lajos Simicska. In the last few months we have been witnessing Viktor Orbán’s efforts to ruin Simicska financially. Again, I wrote several posts on the subject. The latest is that István Tarlós, the mayor of Budapest, decided to break a long-term contract with one of Simicska’s firms–Mahir Cityposter. In 2006 Simicska’s firm acquired the right to provide the city with 761 large, cylindrical advertising surfaces. The contract was good for 25 years. According to the terms of the contract, Mahir was supposed to pay the city 15% of its profits or at least 45 million forints per year. Now, nine years later, the city fathers came to the conclusion that the deal was tilted in Cityposter’s favor and that if the city itself took over these advertising surfaces it would make between 73 and 125 million forints. Surely, this sudden discovery was inspired by Viktor Orbán’s anti-Simicska campaign.

I should point out that Simicska acquired these large cylinders back in 1994. Simicska, who at that point handled Fidesz’s finances, saw the importance of owning advertising surfaces in cities all over the country to give Fidesz advertisement opportunities at a lower price than that offered to the opposition parties. But that was a long time ago. The situation after the Simicska-Orbán falling out is entirely different.

In brief, don’t cross Viktor Orbán. He is a vindictive man who can now use even the Hungarian judicial system to ruin his adversaries. It is a sad day for Hungarian jurisprudence.

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Christopher Adam
Guest

I hosted Ibolya Dávid in Montreal in June 2005. By that point, she was a sworn enemy in Orbán’s eyes. I remember her telling the community in Montreal that Orbán is neither conservative, nor Christian.

spectator
Guest

Her assessment still hold, only the list grew substantially longer what Orbán isn’t.

Al Ruwais
Guest

Actually you should broaden the spectre. The Hungarian voters themselves crossed Orbán twice: once in 2002 and secondly in 2006. And what happens since 2006 is the “strike back” of the two-times humiliated politician. Who gradually became a real mental case. And now he takes revenge on a whole country and as he was humiliated by quite a few European politicians as well in the past few years – he started his revenge on Europe, too. Ockham”s razor. (Check out Istvan Geher’s study on Shakespeare’s Richard III in Shakespeare-olvasókönyv and György Banki’s article in HVG on the Zimbardo modell /Kicsi uszítás a nagy egészben, 2013.január 25./) .

Guest

Re: ‘And now he takes revenge on a whole country and as he was humiliated by quite a few European politicians as well in the past few years – he started his revenge on Europe, too’

Good time to perhaps revisit the play and review the disturbed psyche of the ‘immoral’. Sure looks not very encouraging for the future development of the Hungarian state when VO the fellow wielding power is off the charts on that quality. As VO goes it is hard not to come away from the conclusion so goes the country.

At one time we had one fellow here who adamantly believed he was not a ‘crook’. But many people believed differently on one who outrageously tainted the country and its institutions with his behavior.

Guest

Orbán’s feud with the entire country in 2006, began by him trashing his office, in a school-boy rage at his election defeat, and then more or less declaring a “state of emergency” while rallying his supporters to protest. As a friend of mine said at the time ….” in most normal countries citizens demonstrate against government decisions, but in Hungary, which often gets things back to front, the government under Orbán is demonstrating against the people”.

moriczzsigmondkorter1956
Guest
moriczzsigmondkorter1956

The reporting on the Orban era is still very superficial.
Somebody should make an effort to dig out the true facts of this affair.
The investigation should start even before 1989.

tappanch
Guest

Orban’s friend, the Head of the Judiciary Authority (OBH) achieved her goal: the venue of the Sukoro trial was moved to Szolnok.

2012: She moved it to the Szolnok Court
2013: Constitutional Court declared her right to move cases unconstitutional
Szolnok court wanted to give it back to Budapest court, which refused to take it back.
The Kuria then gave it back to Szolnok.

http://hvg.hu/gazdasag/20150917_Visszadobtak_a_sukoroi_vadlottak_panaszat

tappanch
Guest

“The Czech and Hungarian economies will probably be the hardest-hit by the Volkswagen AG emissions scandal among eastern European nations, according to Bank of America Corp.

In a worst-case scenario, the fallout from the German company’s admission it was lying about its diesel engines’ emissions may shave between 1 and 1.5 percentage points off Czech and Hungarian economic growth and current accounts, BofA analysts led by London-based Mai Doan said. The impact on growth in Poland and Romania will be less than 0.5 percentage point”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-30/vw-scandal-to-hit-czech-hungarian-gdp-most-in-region-bofa-says

Reality Check
Guest

“2006 television debate Gyurcsány decisively beat him [Orbán]” Anyone have a link to a video or a transcript (Hungarian is fine) of this debate?

Istvan
Guest

Apparently PM Orban gave a speech today at the UN. Here is a report on it in Hungarian http://hvg.hu/itthon/20150930_Vilagkvotarendszerrol_beszelt_Orban_az_EN

He stated according to the article “This is not theory, but fact: from Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and most recently from the sub-Saharan region they are coming to the Hungarian border. Let me be perfectly clear- Europe will not be able to do it, to bear this burden alone if there is no change in the current trends, Europe will be destabilized.” He spoke in favor of a global quota system for refugees according to the article, which amazed me given his position not long ago over an EU quota system.

Member

Yes, we all knew that Orban is a hypocritical little rat, he sure has “little man syndrome”! The US and Canada have accepted hundreds of thousands of refugees from around the world, how many has Hungary accepted in the last 10 years? 25 years? Still don’t think it could even touch what north America has, yet he has the nerve to dictate to other nations as to accepting refugees when he himself refuses to. I thought I saw it all with the little psycho. The scariest part about it, is that his arrogance and narcisism is actually fooling some into thinking he makes sense. What a scary time we are entering. I just hope, someone, somewhere, will stop the little creep.

Member

“Canada will accept 10000 Syrian refuges for the next three years, and would help resettle another 3,000 Iraqi refugees by the end of 2015, in addition to the 20,000 Iraqi refugees already resettled in Canada. Canada’s resettlement pledges came with an additional $90 million in humanitarian assistance for the region.

Of that, $50 million will help people affected inside Syria and in neighbouring countries, including Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey. The other $40 million will assist those affected by the ongoing crisis in Iraq, the government said.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-to-resettle-10-000-more-syrian-refugees-over-3-years-1.2892652

Now, before someone says that Canada is way bigger and much more populated..
“The Ontario government is pledging $10.5 million to the Syrian refugee crisis, Premier Kathleen Wynne announced Saturday.

Wynne said the province hopes to resettle 10,000 refugees by the end of 2016, though she notes the provincial government doesn’t have the power to sponsor those refugees.”
Ontario has about 12,000,000 people.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/kathleen-wynne-pledges-to-bring-10-000-refugees-to-ontario-1.3225695

Nádas
Guest
Liz Aucoin: Not to defend Orbán, but how many refugees should a small country of only 10 million accept, in your opinion? And whatever number that is, how can you possibly compare it to the United States, a huge, wealthy country where immigration – legal and illegal – is a natural part of the landscape and the American DNA? No matter who the Hungarian prime minister is or what party he comes from, the public’s negative reaction to mass immigration, particularly from the Muslim world, would likely be the same, with or without the anti-immigration billboard campaign. Although President Obama has (reluctantly, no doubt) agreed to accept some Syrian refugees to the US, I’m sure this is not at all a popular decision in all corners of the American public. In the wake of its many disastrous foreign military adventures, the US has been forced to accept large populations who had been turned into refugees by American actions. Vietnam is the first to come to mind, and just one unintended consequence, some 40 years later, has been the rise of Asian gangs operating on American soil that only become more prevalent with each succeeding generation. And there’s nothing even political… Read more »
Guest

Re:”There is more and more finger-pointing at the Americans for destabilizing the region by illegally invading and destroying Iraq, and sending an exodus of millions in all directions. This is in fact now taken as a given in Europe”

You know now we’ll see how Vlad from the Rus handles possible ‘finger-pointing’ with the foray into Syria. The advance to take hold of the situation may perhaps look like bull in the china shop.

But this is another ancillary issue to ‘local’ concerns in Magyarorszag. In any case both leaders have the same style namely act and see how the dust settles for the next positioning act.

Reality Check
Guest

“Vietnam is the first to come to mind, and just one unintended consequence, some 40 years later, has been the rise of Asian gangs operating on American soil that only become more prevalent with each succeeding generation.

You can find bad actors in any ethnic group.

Any negatives of are far outweighed by the positives. Asian Americans, including those of Vietnamese ancestry, have been an important positive economic driver in the US.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/

Member
I fully understand that North America has a much larger population and space for immigrants and refugees, which is why so many more are accepted. I don’t think however, Canada and the US need Orban to tell them to take some of these people in. In my opinion, we do need to take a bigger amount than what is being proposed currently, especially since Canada just tipped the scale in which we now have more people over 65 than under 18, which is dangerous with regards to maintaining productivity. Yes, the US is responsible as well as all western countries for the destablization in the middle east, and the entire world should be contributing to the care of these refugees closer to home, but that is seperate from the issue that is NOW, these people are moving and need somewhere to go, simple as that. Hungary was asked to accept only 1294 refugees to settle in Hungary, and I don’t think anyone could say that is something a country of 10 million couldn’t handle. No one is asking Hungary, or any of the smaller eastern bloc countries to take in millions or even tens of thousands. Nor am I suggesting… Read more »
An
Guest

Liz, I agree, this is a maneuver on Orban’s part to deflect responsibility from Hungary and also showmanship by posing as a “great leader,” practically suggesting something that is already happening on a volunteer basis. It is a suggestion that really holds no water … you cannot force countries to take in refuges, only urge them to volunteer to take some in, which is already happening.

Member

Also, here is a link that shows the quotas.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5698_en.htm

Nádas
Guest
Liz Aucoin: Now you’re twisting my words. I did not say I think Orbán “speaks for the best interest of Hungarians.” Quite the contrary, Orbán and Fidesz are a disaster for the country. I said that in spite of his low popularity at the moment, most Hungarians – and many others throughout the region – share his view on this recent wave of immigration, and do not want a Muslim minority in their country. And that is all I said. Don’t forget, just a couple weeks ago thousands of migrants attempted to physically force their way into the country at Röszke even in the face of a large police presence. They didn’t want to identify themselves, and only wanted to push on toward Germany, which until a few weeks ago did not want them, either. The Germans are now scrambling to winnow out the non-Syrians and send them home. That will be a logistic nightmare, but one Germany has brought on itself by opening the door to so many refugees. The wave has not crested yet. You say that Orbán “doesn’t have a clue about resettling people and being a part of the world community.” It should be obvious that… Read more »
Member

“And what does public health care system got to do with this argument?

It is an example of how things can totally come crumbling down without the workforce needed to make it work. Hungary NEEDS doctors, nurses, and other staff to operate hospitals and clinics. They could most definately mine the refugees for skilled workers. It is more important for Orban to keep the gene pool clean from middle eastern blood than it is to keep the country productive and services available to his citizens.

bimbi
Guest

The latest Orban/Fidesz campaign is to put up very large posters with the following message:

“The People have Spoken – The Country must be Defended”

While in speeches (maybe) appearing to be accepting of refugees, he continues his campaign of continuing WAR as if this really were 1984 – maybe it is on Orban’s calendar.

Presumably “the People” that is referred to in this new message is the 8% of the electorate who managed to see a link between Immigration and Terrorism, after direction in the recent “National Consultation” and who actually bothered to return their responses.

And presumably, the “defense” that is referred to is the use by the TEK of club, pepper spray and water cannon… Watch out Hungary this may just be a prelude to what lies around the corner.

Member

IN BRIEF, YES EVERYBODY SHOULD CROSS VIKTOR ORBÁN, UNTIL HE IS GENTLY SWAYING BACK AND FORTH IN A BREEZE, AT THE END OF A NOOSE.

petofi
Guest

The ‘racist’ Petofi–god forgive him–has had the audacity to explore the rate of growth of Islam in Canada. Some results:

1977–population: 37,000
2011–pop. 1,055,000 (Today the 2nd largest religious group after Christians)

Comparison in the rate of birth: Muslim–2.4% Christian–1.6%

Percentage of Muslims in major cities: Toronto–7.7%
Montreal–6.0%
Ottawa–5.5%

So then, how long before Muslims become the major deciding force in municipal elections? in federal elections?

petofi
Guest

Let’s work this population thing a little more:

pop. of Germany–80 million
pop. of Canada—-35 million

800,000 refugees in Germany = (pro-rated) 350,000 in Canada

If 33,000 Muslims in 1977 grew to 1,050,000 in 2011…what would 350,000 refugees grow to in 20 years? 40 years?

(Just to give an idea to what Merkel has committed Germany to–)

Another thing: Germany has its own poor and underpriveledged. How much of the money earmarked for schools, hospitals and welfare assistance will now be diverted to aid migrants?

petofi
Guest

Source: Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Canada

Questions posed:
Rate of Muslim growth in Canada
Rate of Muslim growth in Saudi Arabia….etc.

spectator
Guest
Yeah, we’ve got it. Then what? They will most probably take over – here, there everywhere. I repeat: then what? Just what the ..hmmm.. hell we are supposed to do about it, and anyway, why? From my point of view it doesn’t matter – and I mean none, nada, nil – that on what way anybody worships the God what I have nothing to do with, as long as it goes on this way. To me it strictly religious question, and as you probably gathered so far I couldn’t care less. A few days ago I already asked, but once again: just how many Gods are we talking about? If it still “the one and only” what I learned about as a Catholic kid, then don’t worry, he (Must be a man! According to George Carlin women just couldn’t fuck up that much, and I agree!!) is the very same what all the Christians, Jews and Moslems (the order strictly alphabetical) worship. Particularly, since all the above named variations originating from the very same belief. All the differences lets in the details – the way the worship performed, eventually the reason, why the worship needed at all – but the… Read more »
An
Guest

Are you saying that between 1977 and 2011 no Muslims immigrated to Canada and the growth in the Muslim population is entirely due to births?

petofi
Guest

@An

Typical Hungaricum, your nit-picking, An: of course I’m not saying that. Where did I? Sure there was immigration. And it was increasing, too. But are you not concerned that a group grew from 30,000 to over a million in 40 years? That doesn’t bother you?
Why aren’t you questioning the difference in the birth rate: 2.4 vs 1.6? Does that sit well with you?

Let’s remember that this is a group that is adamantly maintaining its own ways with no effort to meld into Canadian society…

An
Guest

It doesn’t bother me. Birthrates can and do change over generations.

Reality Check
Guest

You are not working a thing. You have provided no information that would be useful in even the simplest BIDE population dynamic models.

Please provide proof that there has been a change (or one is planned) in the budget allocation of the German government that would take away from the underprivileged.

Given that many economists have predicted that immigration will be an engine of economic growth in Germany, in the mid-term they might provide a greater tax base for monies for the underprivileged.

Member

In fact Germany smartly planning to make sure that when the current generation retires, there will be adequate work force to pay for their retirement. Western nations, and some not so Western was deal with low birth-rates, and Hungary also deals with the decreasing population size due to emmigration.

tappanch
Guest

Could you give us your source? Thank you

István
Guest

petofi one problem with the statistical comparison between Muslims and Christians in the context of advanced western nations like Canada is actually religious affiliation. I have had discussions here in Chicago with Evangelicals primarily affiliated with the Assemblies of God Church, the largest Pentecostal church in the world today, who believe that Catholic doctrine contained “corruptions” and questioned in fact if Catholics are true Christians. Similar divisions exist within the world of Islam. Even within Sunni Islam there are divisions regarding the six articles of faith and there are three dominant schools of theology within Sunni Islam.

Then there is the thorny question of how people identify themselves for survey purposes. If you grew up in a Catholic family and for the last thirty years go to church only at Christmas are you really a Catholic? Are you really a Muslim if you are drinking Jack Daniels nightly and clubbing three nights a week on your 100 k plus salary as a software engineer in San Fransisco? I don’t have the answers to those questions Petofi. Maybe you do.

Member

Just because they live in Canada, it doesn’t mean you can use their numbers for voting since not all of them are citizens and eligible to vote.

petofi
Guest

Muslim population growth (continued)

In Saudi Arabia, the home of the greatest supplier of funds to African nations for mosques, Korans, and Muslim teaching centers….and the proponent of the idea that ‘all children are a gift from God’…has the following population figures:

2000–rate of growth–3.28%
2011–rate of growth (declining every year since 2000)–1.51%

What’s going on?

bimbi
Guest
Petofi: You have stated figures which show a substantial rate of growth of what you refer to as the ‘Muslim’ population in Canada. But could we clarify the issue? Is your concern directed at the growth in the number of people or a growth in the number of people who hold religious views that you fear could be a disruptive force on the present social fabric of Canada? I suspect that (as here) you are concerned with the latter. I hate to tell you but it is going to happen – it is happening – and Canada had better have an organization in operation to deal with the change. Does Canada have any principle of separation of church and state? It might be worth looking at because without it the growth and power of religious-based political parties and pressure groups is going to be hard to withstand. Canadian society – eh? – like the British (used to be) is laid-back and easy-going – which is why it is a great place to live – and I would hate to see it caught napping for failure to anticipate problems (not very far) down the road. People we can deal with. It… Read more »
petofi
Guest

@Bimbi

Why do pose a nonsensical question and proudly answer it yourself?

Of course it’s the rate of Muslim population growth I worry about because,
a) they’re a patriarchal society where the oldest male decides everything including who all the members vote for;
b) they want to transplant Common Law with Sharia Law;
c) they want/will undermine the political system of democracy…namely, one man/one vote.

And those are only some of my concerns.

Possible solutions:
–No voting rights for Muslim immigrants until the 3rd generation..ie. 30 years
–strict policing of Muslim immigrants from countries of higher birth rate than Canada; and control of the birthrate within Muslim refugee families in line with the national average;
–end to Muslim call to prayer (which is a disturbance to normal society)

And, various pieces of legislation to maintain the English/French culture as the central, lasting, predominant cultures of the land.

Reality Check
Guest

“Possible solutions:
–No voting rights for Muslim immigrants until the 3rd generation..ie. 30 years
–strict policing of Muslim immigrants from countries of higher birth rate than Canada; and control of the birthrate within Muslim refugee families in line with the national average;
–end to Muslim call to prayer (which is a disturbance to normal society)”

Why just muslims? No immigrant offspring from any group should vote until 3rd generation.
Sub-dermal birth control implants? Uterus patrols? Forced abortions?
How about getting rid of the tolling of church bells too?
And if they are caught talking anything but English or French with their children, should social services take the kids away?

How far do you want to take it?

Guest

First you have to get citizenship to be able to vote – doesn’t that mean a language test etc in Canada?
In Germany it’s not at all easy …
And without language and other skills you also don’t get a job so easily so I’m sure immigrants will have to adapt to a new way of life and that usually also means less children, more power to the women etc …

Member

Sounds like some people would like to bring back some form of numerus clausus on muslims. How about some form of introduction of the residential school system that worked out so great for Canada. Let’s not forget the compulsory sterilization for good measures to please the Jobbik too.

petofi
Guest

@Reality Check

Sure, bud, dance your way to oblivion. Mockery in the service of self-righteousness.

Reality Check
Guest

Do some reading on demographic transitions before posting more of your nonsense.

Once you understand what it is, you might understand why you can not assume that Muslim birth rates will remain high in Canada, the US, Europe, or in the Middle East.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/demography-in-the-middle-east-population-growth-slowing-womens-situation-un

Turkish47
Guest

Orban is a genius and a champion fighter.

Orban fooled the Austrian Chancellor the leftist Faymann and then Orban beat him senseless. It should be taught in political schools.

Muahahaha. Orban is winning and the weak Western politicians are losing. Sorry guys, but Orban is a winner and his opponents can’t to do a thing, they can only continue to pay him the EU funds. Muahaha.

Also the opposition is so impotent and lazy that they should just disappear. Any any case the opposition will disappear.

Az osztrák kancellárral való meccset szerintem tanítani lehetne: kiment Bécsbe, ügyesen behúzta a csőbe Werner Faymannt, majd szépen, elegánsan tönkreverte” – mondta Orbán Viktor menekültekkel kapcsolatos bécsi tárgyalásairól Török Gábor politikai elemző a Heti Válasznak a kollégájával, a Nézőpont-elemző Mráz Ágoston Sámuellel adott közös interjújában.

http://hvg.hu/itthon/20151001_Torok_Gabor_Orban_ellen_kihagyott_egy_zic

tappanch
Guest

J Lazar today about funds from EU, converted to euros
2014 about 6 billion
2015 at least 7 billion
2016 minimum 5 billion

See portfolio.hu

It is the liberal and democratic EU that sustains the Orban regime.

csáby
Guest

The EU will forever sustain Orban because its doesn’t care.

The EU only cares about unity. The parallels with Italy is staggering, The Northern Italians (and the EU) are OK with the mafia in the South, they just don’t care. Why would they care?

Same with Hungary. Orban realized long time ago that and took advantage of these ignorant lazy Western politicians. The leftist wanted to conform and didn’t realize the true power situation. For this cluelessness they leftists pay with their vanishing.

tappanch
Guest

Further plans:

Firing a lot of people from the state sector,
creating “giga” investments (bigger soccer stadiums?),
making Budapest an EU region. This way Budapest continues not receiving EU funds,
but they can flow to Pest county outside Budapest.

http://www.portfolio.hu/gazdasag/lazar_a_kovetkezo_fel_ev_kritikus_lesz.220383.html

Ede
Guest

Várnegyed and Múzeum-negyed.

Nothing new, just the old plans.

If Orban decides he accomplishes. There’s no wavering as with the lefties.

He wanted to move to the Buda Palace and he will.

petofi
Guest

@Ede

A stirling example of Schmuckus Hungaricus Homus–I knew that
extra terrestials existed! (And most are at the center of the earth–Hungary!)

Guest

Re: ‘It is the liberal and democratic EU that sustains the Orban regime’

No doubt one of the sticks holding up the rickety house. A house by the way that appears to be a ‘closed’ system which can only lead to higher and higher entropy. So far VO controls this with employing fences plus enjoying the confidence of apparently the majority of the Hungarian population. And the minds among the latter appear to be ‘shut’ in their attitudes.

I’d suggest the population doesn’t appear to be using their decision-making skills on politics as good they do when they look for gyumolcs. For most it isn’t hard to pick out bad alma and refuse to buy it.

Have to say VO surely knows how to ‘sell’ it to the population. He’s the great Communicator on that constantly pounding away the messages. They appear to munch plenty of it.

Guest

Imho Orbán punishes the majority of Hungarians – why should the EU care about those Hungarian lunatics?
As long as Hungarians work for the EU (cheap …), consume EU products – and pay for them:
No problem!
We all know that corruption is everywhere – Hungary is just the norm, not the exception.
And in the long run they all lose power somehow or even just disappear/die:
Berlusconi, Haider, Orbán, …
PS:
has anyone seen that new slick (and probably very expensive …) government brochure about “A Magyar Reformok …”?
If it weren’t so sad, it would be funny – my wife wanted to throw it into the garbage immediately …

Guest

Re: ‘…even just disappear/die… Haider’..

You know I have the feeling Jorg and the party he was part of is haunting Austria pretty good from his coffin. If he and his ilk are dyin’ they sure are taking a long time to find the cemetery…;-)..

Guest

Probably every developed democratic country has similar problems with these fringe lunatics like Haider Strache/FPÖ, UKIP, LePen, Teaparty etc …
In Germany I’ve seen the rise and fall of the NPD, the Republikaner and now the AfD – and I’m not worried (yet).
Usually after some time they split and disappear or get reduced to a low single digit percentage again.

That’s part of the price you have to pay in a democracy for your tolerance …

spectator
Guest

You are right, wolfi, but the process normally went trough in due course about a hundred years ago, or such. The problem really is – as I see it, of course – that Hungary somehow managed to lag behind, while insisting that they are right..!

The whole process happened already elsewhere, and they managed to grow out of it and moved forward. However, the Orbanist morons managed to stuck in somewhere in the forties and still acting accordingly.

Beside to be “retro” and “cool” – for to be jus that – the whole motion is clearly outdated and out of fashion since awhile, just about everywhere, but Hungary…

In my opinion the only reason for someone supporting it – like the V4 countries – is the temporary populistic gain, because they need it.

Not any civilised person in the “pro” side, that’s for sure!

Tyrker
Guest

wolfi, Strache might be a lunatic but he is definitely not on the fringe.
In fact he is the most popular politician in Austria right now.
And FPÖ enjoys the support of 33% of the electorate.

tappanch
Guest

In the first 8 months of the year combined, 106 thousand migrants crossed Hungary.

Victor is victorious, at least in making Hungarians dumb.

He won the Röszke battle in September, didn’t he?

Well, in September, the number of migrants was 185 thousand.

István
Guest

Tappanch do you have data on how many of those 185,000 refugees are currently resident or in dentetion facilities within Hungary? Even the Hungarian Helsinki Committee has not produced comprehendiable data on that issue that I have seen. Victory from the Fidesz perspective may use a different metric than refugees simply crossing the border.

The truth is Hungary could not enforce its laws on imigration with Croatia busing thousands of refugees across the Hungarian border unless the nation was willing to start a shooting war. Moreover, the cost of imprisoning the refugees for violation of Hungarian law would have been astronomical. As many pointed out on this blog the laws passed were not enforceable, but were an intimaditon tactic that had limited impact.

On another issue, but related Donald Trump said yesterday he would send home all Syrian refugees the US accepts, if he becomes president. He told a New Hampshire rally: “If I win, they’re going back.” The Fox News report indicates great cheering at that statement.

tappanch
Guest

Dear Istvan

This is all I know. From September 15 through 30, Hungarian police charged about 6% or 7% [I will calculate the updated number later] of the people that crossed the Serbian border, exactly 351 people.

The Szeged court delivered 247+ verdicts (I am missing the number about one day)

5-year ban from Hungary: 1
3-year: 1
2-year: 133
1-year: 103
no ban: 1 (a minor)
discrepancy in the reported numbers: 8

If all of the 237 banned people were deported to Serbia, then 114 people are in detention. In addition some of the Roszke rebels were caught later inside Hungary.

There are also unaccompanied minors in Fot and elsewhere. I read various statements about their number, from 100 to 800.

Istvan
Guest

Thanks for your honest and objective response and also thanks Eva for your educated guess. I am somewhat disappointed that Hungarian Helsinki Committee which has written in detail about refugees in detention near the Austrian border has not provided any data on the number of refugees currently in the country.

Here is a link to a very good report by Hungarian Helsinki Committee written on Sept 18: http://helsinki.hu/wp content/uploads/HHC_Hungary_Info_Note_Sept_2015_No_country_for_refugees.pdf but it does not have any data on how many refugees were in Hungary at any one time.

Paaaaaal
Guest

The Jews are great friends of Hungary. The Orban Government is helping them, supporting them and defending them.

http://digidugi.tumblr.com/post/130263511490/mikola-istv%C3%A1n-%C3%A9s-kumin-ferenc-new-yorkban

spectator
Guest

Forgive me, please, Paaaaaal, but the “defending them” part feels a bit as overstatement. Would you mind to elaborate a bit here?

Just for example, like how the government defended the Jewish population from the outrageous statements of the party called ‘Jobbik’?

Just for curiosity, really, – I tend to forget things, due to my ripe age – and this is something what I really will remember!
Given the chance, that is!

gdfxx
Guest

“Just for example, like how the government defended the Jewish population from the outrageous statements of the party called ‘Jobbik’?”

Far from me to defend Jobbik. But with my American state of mind, statements are protected here, even when they are full of hate. How do you protect someone from a statement? Inciting to violence, that’s a whole different issue.

spectator
Guest

From a semantic oint of view you are right, of course.

But honestly, just how far the statements and the acts happened to get from each other in the Roma’s case?

I hope that you don’t mean like “look, there were no pogroms, so obviously the government defended the jews..”

OK., just joking here. I hope, anyway.

Otherwise if the government would take its role seriously, it should have condemned each and every anti semitic rants from just about whoever.

But I haven’t ever heard or read such statement from the Hungarian government, but then again, I may have missed it.

But obviously it must have happened along the lines, otherwise you wouldn’t mention it, would you?

gdfxx
Guest

I agree that the government should condemn Jobbik’s (or anyone else’s) anti-Semitic or racist statements. I disagree that this would defend anyone from anything. It would just make clear the position of the government. And it would be the right thing to so.

Member
Dear Nadas: If you checked my comment above your post at September 30, 2015 at 9:51 pm, it clearly states that not only Canada but Ontario (12,000,000 people) will accept thousands of Syrian refugees above the regular refugees quota. Hungary have been receiving and will be receiving funds from the EU and from the International community. Nobody asked Orban to do this for free, and it is a whole different story why he decided not to “advertise” how much money Hungary is receiving per refugee to deal with the situation present and in the future. He also did not advertise how much money is his soccer dreams in Felcsut getting from taxpayers money, although those who are “dare” to look it up. By the way each hopeful soccer costs about 4000,000 forints, about EUR 13,000. (this does not include the additional donations to the academy). Since 2001 there was EUR 2,895,144 for the Felcsut’s dream, while one of the latest game had 800 visitors. Ontario and Canada does not receive any help, and in fact together with different churches, including the Catholic church they are fundraising for the cause. FACTS now, not Orban PR: Hungary would receive EUR 500 for… Read more »
Nádas
Guest

It’s not a question of receiving funds in exchange for accepting refugees. It’s a question of what the Hungarian people want for their country. However, if Fideszniks are offered money, they’ll no doubt be happy to take it.

Of course there is no justification for the massive expense of all those football stadiums, unless they can be used to house refugees. Otherwise, how do they even enter into the discussion?

And are you saying that Hungary has been asked to accept 54,000 refugees? That’s a far cry from the 1,294 that Liz Aucoin mentioned above.

Member
There are many things Hungary does not want for Hungary, and of course they want all the best. Who would be the idiot who would say “Give me all the troubles and no benefits at all!” But the reality is that with great opportunities (like all the money the EU poured into Hungary so far to develop the country) comes some responsibility, and some of those responsibility is taking care of others. ..and nobody wants Hungary to do this for free either. I also never said that Hungary have to accept 54,000 refugees, and it is not what the document I linked says either. The EU recognizes that refugees will travel through Hungary, and in order for the Hungarian government to pay for those refugees to travel through, they are paying Eur 500 each refugee. The document I linked you to (and you did not look) shows how the EU tries to “distribute” those refugees to other countries NOT make them stay in Hungary. For refugees that would stay the EU would provide more than EUR 500/each. The document was published on the 9th of September. What is the relocation scheme breakdown per Member State? From Hungary there would be… Read more »
petofi
Guest

Although a jew, I don’t truck with the big, fur hat types; or the big, black hat types; or the ones with the elongated sideburns–they’re all as much cult figures as many other extremists…

spectator
Guest

You mean, just like Harrach and Semjén?
That’s what I figured!

In my opinion none of the fundamentalist religious extremists better on any way, in spite of the name of the religion.

But than again, I’m an outsider regarding mind altering beliefs (commonly known: religions).

Guest

I read before somewhere that the first half of the first sentence of the Communist Manifesto has been modified in Hungarian to describe Orban’s behavior: instead of Kísértet járja be Európát – Kis sértett járja be Európát. I think it’s funny 🙂

spectator
Guest

It still is, and still valid! Even if it came forward sometimes when Orbán complained all over Brussels regarding the budget of the previous government.

But now it gained a wider audience, he was in New York recently, so the Manifesto should be altered accordingly..:)

Member

This report is the latest from September 22nd, and I linked it above as well, which shows the quota for Hungary. You don’t have to take my word for it.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5698_en.htm

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