Viktor Orbán and Péter Szijjártó at the United Nations

Viktor Orbán didn’t skip his Friday morning radio interview despite the fact that it was only a few hours earlier that he stepped off the airplane that brought him back from a trip to New York and Washington. A large part of the interview was a rehash of his well-known opposition to the immigration of people from an alien culture, but the careful listener could detect an admission of failure in convincing the world about the correctness of his position. It turned out that the only European country that supported Orbán’s proposal for worldwide compulsory quotas for the asylum seekers was Malta. It had been clear since the Brussels summit that this idea was dead in the water, and Orbán’s promoting it in New York was a waste of time.

We do know that Viktor Orbán met Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, president of Egypt, who is one of the favorite politicians of the Hungarian prime minister. During el-Sisi’s state visit to Budapest during the summer Orbán praised him as the savior of Egypt and compared him to Admiral Miklós Horthy, also a military man, who saved his country in a time of peril. According to a government press release, Orbán will make an official state visit to Cairo soon. Otherwise, we know that he met Ronald Lauder, president of the World Jewish Congress, and Annette Lantos, widow of the late Congressman Tom Lantos. The meeting with Lauder was scheduled on the very day that in Hungary the two officials responsible for the sale of the Sukoró property on which Lauder and other businessmen were planning to erect a casino and hotel complex received tough jail sentences in a rigged trial. I wonder whether Lauder was aware of the verdict at the time of the conversation.

We know more about Péter Szijjártó’s schedule. He had an opportunity to talk to Deputy Secretary-General Jan Eliasson and Jeffrey D. Feltman, under-secretary-general for political affairs. Otherwise he had meetings with assorted foreign ministers of marginally important countries: Gilbert Saboya of Andorra, Taieb Beccouche of Tunisia, Erlan Abdyldaev of Kyrgysztan, and Charles Koffi Diby of the Ivory Coast. In addition, he met with Peter M. Boehm, associate deputy minister of foreign affairs of Canada, who was misidentified by the Hungarian foreign ministry as the foreign minister of the country.

Szijjártó’s conversation with Deputy-Secretary-General Jan Eliasson was, it seems, mostly a comparison of the immigrants currently arriving in Europe and the Hungarians who illegally crossed into Austria and to a lesser extent Yugoslavia. I assume that the comparison was made by Eliasson and was then hotly debated by Péter Szijjártó. As Népszabadság‘s sarcastically commented, “Hungarian immigrants are different from any other immigrants.”

Péter Szijjártó with Deputy-General Secretary Jan Eliasson / MTI/UN/Eskinder Debebe

Péter Szijjártó with Deputy-General Secretary Jan Eliasson / MTI/UN Photo: Eskinder Debebe

Viktor Orbán delivered a short speech at a meeting organized specifically for a discussion of the refugee crisis where, in addition to his suggestion for world quotas, he warned the world against anti-Muslim sentiment. One can only marvel at this man’s brazenness. He has the gall to stand up and utter such words when ever since January he has done nothing but incite his people against the Muslim “invaders” who in his opinion as of this morning “more closely resemble members of an army than asylum seekers.” But he knows no shame.

Péter Szijjártó also delivered a speech in English at the open discussion of the United Nation’s Security Council. The message of his speech was that without Russia no international problems can be solved. He stated that the transatlantic community–the European Union and the United States–must rethink their relations to Russia. The Syrian civil war cannot be solved without Moscow’s participation. In order to further emphasize Hungary’s excellent relations with Russia, Szijjártó began his speech in Russian as a gesture to the Russians who are chairing the Security Council this month. Here we are in the middle of a serious conflict between Vladimir Putin and Barack Obama over Putin’s involvement in Syria, and Hungary, a member of NATO, openly sides with Russia.

In earlier posts I talked about the uncivilized manner in which Szijjártó talks to other politicians. The language being used by this young, inexperienced man is unheard of in diplomacy. But he does it at the command of the prime minister. You may recall that as early as 2010 Viktor Orbán told Hungarian diplomats who gathered for “instructions” from the prime minister in Budapest that they will have to counter every time there is any criticism of Hungary. This year he made himself even clearer. The stronger the criticism the harsher the response of Hungarian diplomats must be.

In light of Orbán’s stated policy of lashing out with harsh rebukes at critics of Hungary, the following exchange in today’s interview was, for those of us who have developed a warped sense of humor in order to survive this regime, amusing. The reporter asked Orbán whether his suggestion of worldwide quotas was intended to force the developed countries to reveal their true feelings about accepting refugees. Orbán piously answered: “This would be an impolite formulation, we are not supposed to speak like that at international meetings, we choose a different approach.” But since he was no longer at an international meeting, he immediately launched into a tirade against the prime minister of Croatia.

After giving a false picture of the excellent relationship between Croatia and Hungary during their 800-year common destiny, he admitted that “‘what is happening today” is injurious to both. Until now he hasn’t said anything to the Croatian prime minister, but now he must say something that might not be diplomatic or polite. He has to be forthright because “our own people will pay the price” for what the Croatian prime minister is doing. “We cannot look upon the words of the Croatian prime minister as the voice of the Croatian people. The Croatian prime minister and his party are part of the Socialist Internationale. The parties of the Socialist Internationale support immigration … Their leaders follow the instructions of the Socialist Internationale…. Therefore, I ask Hungarians to keep in mind when they hear the Croatian prime minister that they aren’t hearing the voice of the Croatian people but the emissary of the Socialist Internationale whose job it is to attack Hungary.”

By now neighboring countries’ politicians have been insulted by Szijjártó, and today Orbán joined the fray by hurling insults at the Croatian prime minister. Where will all this lead? Unfortunately, the Hungarian people will pay dearly for Orbán’s irresponsible foreign policy. Even if Orbán disappeared today, it would take years to undo the damage both at home and abroad.

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Member

“Even if Orbán disappeared today, it would take years to undo the damage both at home and abroad.”
Most Hungarians don’t care about other people’s opinions.
For decades now, every year, I related the opinions formulated by the Western media and people who watch the news about some of the annually recurring negative deeds, done in Hungary, or spoken by their politicians, such as, desecration of Jewish cemeteries, killing of gypsies, etc.
Without exception, the reaction was, “We don’t care about how foreign people think about us, they don’t understand what goes on here, they are misinformed, they don’t live here, they don’t experience the things we do.
Hungarians have opinions about everything, very high and irrationally exaggerated about themselves and very low about everybody else.
There is one thing most of them share with the viktor. They don’t accept any criticism, from anyone.
Most Hungarians think they are different than anybody else, and they are right. They are one of the few societies, that always selects the wrong allies and they repeat their past mistakes, over and over again.

deak101
Guest

Hungarians have rarely enjoyed freedom.

Seemingly, there are many similarities between the Hungarians and Palestinians.

The rulers incited, oppressed, derailed, deceived…..

robimorri
Guest
Hello, I might be OT but I would like to ask you about something I never understood. My wife was Hungarian and we planned to retire in Hungary’ Unfortunately it wasn’t her/our destiny. During our 27 years we had the pleasure of having many Hungarian friends and they “integrated” me into their closed knit social group. I picked up enough of the language that I got by without continuous translation but I found it impossible to learn the nitty gritties of this highly sophisticated language. I found it strange that in spite of the cultural common base the group displayed unimaginable level of intrigues. Every time when someone was absent he or she became to centre of gossip. And they were furious. To my amusement the same group of people closed their ranks around anyone if he/she became sick or got into some kind of trouble. It was like everybody loved everybody at the same time hated each other or were jealous, and in spite of this they were there for each other. Party after party, vacationing together, drinking palinka together, watching soccer games together, etc. So how is this? Is it the specially coded Hungarian DNS? As I read… Read more »
Member

Orban: “We cannot look upon the words of the Croatian prime minister as the voice of the Croatian people. […] I ask Hungarians to keep in mind when they hear the Croatian prime minister that they aren’t hearing the voice of the Croatian people […].”

Me: ” We cannot look upon the words of the Hungarian prime minister as the voice of the Hungarian people. […] I ask Hungarians and the citizens of the World to keep in mind when they hear the Hungarian prime minister that they aren’t hearing the voice of the Hungarian people […].”

eszti
Guest

unfortunately, while strictly true that he was not elected by a majority by far, he has majority support within the country for his immigration position… (albeit achieved with all sorts of political distortions, but no matter really – on this issue i can’t help asking myself “do we get the man we elect or do we elect ourselves?”)

Webber
Guest

Success after success in foreign affairs…

The Pope has cancelled the visit he planned to make to Hungary in 2016, allegedly because of his disgust with the Hungarian government’s and Hungarian Catholic church’s treatment of refugees.

The hilarious thing is that some Hungarian journalist has discovered that the Great O has never been so well-known internationally as now, and from that some idiots associated with Fidesz who pose as pundits and political scientists (though they never studied anything in that field) have come to the conclusion that this means Orban is truly popular internationally.

I guess their analysis is based on the “all news is good news” Hollywood media theory.

I suggest that they see how many “hits” Kim Jong-un gets on an average week. Comrade Kim is clearly much more popular than comrade O.

Knob
Guest
The problem is that if you repeat that bullshit enough times it becomes the truth. And it was repeated enough times, plus nobody opposes it. Have you heard that any “opposition” politicians said that Orban is a detested idiot? 99% of Hungarians have no clue about what foreign politicians think, they don’t speak any foreign languages, more likely than not they get their info from Fidesz-government controlled media. Plus it’s in line with the Hungarian fantasy that Hungarians are full of geniuses (including O) who are admired throughout the world. One more thing and that’s a bit cultural which helps Orban. When Hungarians are faced with the greeting How are you they want to answer it, they don’t get it that they just have to reply How are you. When a foreign politician like Merkel is polite, displays ‘cultured, educated’ Western behavior Hungarians draw the conclusion that Merkel positively likes Orban otherwise if she was really powerful and disapproving then she would be tough and stern. Politeness and small talk and empty praises which are fundamental to Western communication are not understood in Hungary, at least they are misunderstood and can be misrepresented easily. This is also where the West… Read more »
Guest

Knob, thanks for those remarks!
Yes, “small talk” is almost unknown amongst Hungarians – often it descends immediately into politics and gets ugly …
That’s why I always try some “harmless” topic(s) when we visit friends or relatives of my wife – often I prepare in my mind something which might interest them but is politically neutral …

karmazsin
Guest

“Eastern Europeans understand only plain language corresponding to the power situation of the speaker”

This is one of the fundamental problem of the leftists. It’s not just that by leaving Orban’s narratives just about anything unopposed the leftists lose the ideological war, that’s deadly in itself.

But politics is also meta politics and thus by not fighting Orban’s arguments, by not fighting at all, they send the meta message to the voters that they are soft, that they are weak when a potential leader of the nation should appear as powerful which in Hungary means acting tough and serious (though having a “human side” too like filling sausages or being crazy about football).

A soft or weak person is not respected, in fact such politician is thought of as pathetic and ridiculous, which is deadly. The leftist are just incapable of acting tough and decisive, also incapable kif appearing as though they are had toughness, and decisiveness in them and that means they are totally hopeless.

Webber
Guest
There is something very VERY WEIRD about the narrative some of you people are presenting us of a fundamental “difference” between “Eastern Europeans” and “Westerners,” and the fundamental “respect” Eastern Europeans supposedly have for those in power (n.b.Eastern Europeans meaning who? Russians + Hungarians? Who else?? ) How, in God’s name, did you ever do away with communism? How do you explain 1956??? Before 1989 (I’m old enough to remember) we were fed the story that Hungary and Poland and Czechoslovakia were, historically, integral parts of the West, that these countries and their cultures had not only partaken in every major bit of Western history and culture, but that they had contributed very substantially to it all, and that it was a travesty that they were condemned to live under the rule of “Eastern” Europeans (meaning, essentially, Russia). From 1989 onward we were fed the line that these peoples were RETURNING to their essential Westernness, and we were reminded that their subsuming under Soviet power had actually been a very brief moment in their otherwise glorious/tragic/brilliant histories. Now, before someone tells me that this was all just a story made up for gullible Westerners, I will remind Hungarians here that… Read more »
foton874561
Guest
I disagree. These explanations put forward by karmazsin mean that the leftists need to change if they want even a minuscule chance of getting to power (of course the system is rigged but at least it would be useful to show that they really have support even if the “lose” due to electoral mathematics in the Parliament). The conclusion is that the leftist need to be decisive, charismatic, stop petty infighting, start having a vision and principles (or at leas start appearing as ones having these). These are not something that are physically impossible to attain, though they are impossible for the present crop of leftists. Czech Republic is part of the West, also Slovakia (luckily for them Bratislava is just a suburb of Vienna, there even used to be a tram line connection the Viennese Opera with Bratislava) and possibly Poland as well as Slovenia too. Hungary, I don’t know, probably not. In my view the patriarchal, “manly” ideals are much more alive in Hungary than in the Czech Republic etc. and Hungarians by being secluded from the West by not speaking any foreign languages (e.g. Romanian can learn French or Spanish with ease) make convergence with Western ideals… Read more »
Webber
Guest

foton – The people you described above exist in the West, as well. In most countries, they are known as gangsters, or psychopaths.

Before 2010 that was what they were called by most Hungarians I knew, too – and I know plenty who would call them that now. Come to think of it, most people call government ministers that even now (in the previous govt.s too)

(trans. I still don’t buy your story. Ezeregyszáz év Európa szivében or közepén if you prefer. Erase that.)

foton874561
Guest
I wanted to make two points. That the leftists need to be charismatic etc. which is not a big insight, but apparently the current leftists are incapable of changing. You agree or disagree with that. My second point is more ambiguous for sure. I also wanted to say that there are unwritten rules in every society. You pick these up as you grow up and become socialized. These unwritten rules dramatically changed after 1990 and people simply didn’t understand the new world. Should I still pay hálapénz to my doctor? Should I still call my cousin if he is promoted into a new influential job and ask a favor from him? Should I bribe the policman if he wants to give me a ticket? May I now criticize my boss candidly if I disagree with him? These rules changed after 1990 and I think in many ways remained consistently different in, say, Slovakia. People got used to the new rules (ie. the rules of rational capitalism based on competition, lifelong learning etc.), accepted it and got on with their lives. In Hungary Orban (just as Putin in Russia) ensured that the old rules applied again, people again understand the world… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Well, I hope and trust you are wrong – but can’t prove it. Only time will tell.

I can certainly say from experience that from c. 1989 to 2010, you would have had to search very, very hard indeed to find a Hungarian who would say Hungary was “Eastern.” That claim of Westernness is still there, to be used by anyone who wants to.

Perhaps the Left ought to use that as their slogan? (their problem, not mine). Joining the EU was certainly popular enough among ordinary Hungarians to suggest it might be a good one, and might work against Fidesz.

Surely there is still a well-spring of dislike for Russia in the public to touch upon, too? 1956, 1945, 1849… (I know perfectly well why the Hungarian left hasn’t touched all that yet – time to be bold? Or baldfaced?)

The Poles spent a lot more time in Russia’s embrace (c. 1772/1795-c. 1917, then again 1939-41, and c.1944-1989), yet you place them in the West.
Odd.

foton
Guest
In 2004 the EU was popular. I don’t think it is any more. Or people are much much more ambivalent. I am absolutely certain that if the EU did not pay us a net 6bn euros per year, the overwhelming majority of people would be against EU membership. Which is not to say that Hungarians don’t envy the West. They do. But these feelings are always ambivalent and contradictory. In rural places (that is everywhere outside Budapest) the EU (and the liberal, urban Budapest) are the most important bogeymen (the out of control federal government), the cause of everything bad. Russia is not popular or it’s probably as popular as was in 1989 (when there were still a lot of old school leftist people). I don’t think it’s more popular than “the West”. The West will likely remain more popular, the question is how Hungary could get there? Is it possible at all? And what to do till then? I think the West should be set as a political goal, Hungary should be defined as a Western (as opposed to Eastern) nation (despite its inbetweenness) — but that doesn’t mean that Hungary (politicians) should be seen as a conforming blindly… Read more »
Guest

So are you saying that all (or many) Hungarians are stupid?
They want the life in luxury that Westerners lead (in their opinion) but they don’t want to live like Westerners?
Seems very strange to me.
PS:
I don’t know how many people watch tv nowadays but most of the channels here in Hungary are filled with US (and some Western European) films and series – so people should know about life in the “rich” West. What do they expect?

Kraken
Guest

@wolfi

People are just not rational.

tappanch
Guest

October 2 was the day of the round numbers.

UNHCR counted the 400 thousandth migrant/refugee in Greece that arrived by sea since Jan 1, {400,387}, (In addition, 131 thousand arrived in Italy by sea)

Hungarian police counted the 300 thousandth {300,182} (so it seems they did not count 100 thousand, Hungarian Authority registered about 180,000 out of this number).

Croatian police counted the 100 thousandth migrant.

tappanch
Guest

Hungarian police counted 99,100 illegal migrants since the celebratory “closure” of the border on September 15 (5,500/day).

Member

Szijjarto and Orban are true idiots, and so are those who trust them, and buy into their propaganda. While Szijjarto is sucking up to Putin (maybe e worried some flow of money will be closed), this is the truth what is happening:

“British Defense Secretary Michael Fallon said the vast majority of Russian air strikes were not aimed at the militant group at all.

“Our evidence indicates they are dropping unguided munitions in civilian areas, killing civilians, and they are dropping them against the Free Syrian forces fighting Assad,” he said. “He’s shoring up Assad and perpetuating the suffering.”
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0RX07K20151003

So those who support Orban, truly want to bring back the Soviet era for Hungary. First Ukraine, now Syria. Thank goodness Orban and Szijjarto, Bayer and all their friends are there to support Putying, so at least he will not attack Hungary. Although let me correct myself, maybe Szijjarto and Orban are planning on Russian support in case Hungarians wake up.

tom
Guest

If we want to be honest, we have to admit that the two strongest forces in Syria are ISIS and the Syrian government backed by Iran, Lebanon and Russia.

There is no other force which can hope with any chance to defeat ISIS.

The sometimes mentioned “rebels” include the Syrian Al-Quaida who are terrorists, radical islamists and other factions. These all fight both Assad gov. and ISIS, but the fact remains that many of them are terrorists, and all put together they do not come close to either gov. forces or ISIS.

If they had any force they would be controlling Syria but they do not. ISIS controls most of Syria and the Assad government controls the smaller part but with major cities and seaports and airports. The “Free Syrians” do not have anything to oppose either ISIS or the government they are merely distractions in the fight.

Either ISIS will win or Assad will win, there is no scenario under which some militia with 1% strength of the total fighting forces suddenly defeats both ISIS and the government at the same time.

Member

Hungary is member of the NATO and not the Russian Army, so maybe they should consider where their loyalties are. Russia with its bombing civilian targets contributes to the further flow of refugees. If citizens are getting from both ends, they will leave the country but of course Orban will talk about the economical refugees not about the refugees his best pal, Putin chased out. Let just remember with that axe murderer where Orban “loyalties” and morals are.

Reality Check
Guest
tom
Guest
I wrote: “ISIS controls most of Syria and the Assad government controls the smaller part but with major cities and seaports and airports.” And the map you linked from the New York Times shows exactly this. They introduced a new color white for “sparsely populated areas” But you can note that most of this wide is surrounded by patches of ISIS red. So ISIS in fact controls most of Syria, but most of Syria is in fact sparsely populated such as desert. But they do control it. The NYT also does not claim otherwise it just says it is “sparsely populated” and colors it white. Also you have to remember that ISIS holds a huge part of Iraq, owns oil fields there as well as the second largest city in that country, Mosul. You can no way compare the “rebels” (which once again includes many different groups and known terrorist groups) to the power of ISIS. Here is a map that shows a better understanding of the Situation, the color grey is ISIS ISIS has many times more territory than the 6-8 groups lumped together under the “rebel” label. At the very least the NYT should have colored Al-Nusra separately… Read more »
spectator
Guest

It still wouldn’t change the stance of the Hungarian government, would it?
Furthermore, based on Orbán’s well known bolshevik sympathy and jearning for full and unlimiet power, the scene seems entirely plaisible.
Come on, it wirked before, many times!
Knowing the Hungarian populace it will be fully accepted too…

Go for it Viktor, we deserve it!
(By supporting you..!)

István
Guest
The comments of Péter Szijjártó Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade at the UN have sparked some interest among bloggers over the Russian Federation intervention in Syria in support of the Ba’ath regime of Assad. The reason I make specific mention of the Ba’ath party is to point out the complexity of the current US position on the Assad government. In general the current US State Department line on the Assad government is that they are a bunch of criminal murders who created the ground work for the current civil war and the rise of the Islamic State that must be removed. But politically Saddam Hussein in Iraq was also a Ba’athist and then Senator Obama had a very different position on removing him from office by force, what was called then “regime change,” his position then was one I agreed with as did many retired military officers. President Barack Obama, as an Illinois state senator in 2002, said that using military force to topple the government of Iraq amounted to a “dumb war” and should be opposed. The “dumb war” Obama was criticizing was the planned invasion of Iraq and the murderous dictator was its leader, Saddam Hussein. Obama,… Read more »
tom
Guest

Istvan, I agree with almost everything you said except this:

“now Putin is repeating the mistakes the Soviets made in Afghanistan.”

And here too I only partially disagree in that this is a certainity. It may happen that Russia is now making the first steps of a bigger mistake much like Afghanistan.

But I think it is more probable that the conflict will ultimately be simplified with the smaller groups disappearing. The “rebels” will be either wiped out, flee Syria or declare a cease-fire. At this point the remaining combatants will be

Assad and allies vs ISIS. These two combatants will gradually crush Al-Nusra and the other smaller groups, who do not have the resources, manpower or the international support to lean on.

When the fighting is only between ISIS and Assad gov. the US public will overwhelmingly prefer Assad as the better alternative, (with the exception of a small number of radical Muslims who will support ISIS). At this point the pressure will be enormous for the US to support Assad either covertly or overtly. Or it could be an indirect support such as flying airstrikes against ISIS, which at this point will help Assad in winning the war against ISIS.

Webber
Guest
Istvan, you wrote of Obama’s position on Assad now and on Saddam Hussein: “then Senator Obama had a very different position on removing him” (Hussein) “from office by force,” The difference – correct me if I am wrong – is that in the case of Saddam Hussein there was NO insurgency within Iraq outside the Kurdish area, which was protected by the US. I do not recall Obama being opposed to protection for the Kurds (via the no-fly zone). Do you? You are correct in recalling that Obama was opposed to sending in ground troops to invade Iraq. In the case of Syria, Obama is similarly opposed to sending in ground troops to invade that country. Where is the contradiction, between his position for Iraq and his position for Syria? I don’t see it. In contrast to Iraq then, there is currently a significant rebellion against the Assad regime. Obama is supporting certain rebel groups, notably the Kurds (as was done in Iraq, then, too – and Obama supported that) and a few other groups. So, I don’t see the enormous difference – and I certainly do not see any hypocrisy between Obama’s position now on Syria and his position… Read more »
Webber
Guest

P.S. Istvan – As to your prediction that it will be only ISIS and Assad, and the US will in the end support Assad – WAIT and see!
Early days!
There’s always the J. Baker approach – “we ain’t got no dog in that fight” otherwise known as the American-hick approach “let God sort it out” or more politely “none of our business”
For some reason I cannot comprehend, you have forgotten the Kurds. All analysis up until now has stated that, thus far, only the Kurds have had significant battle successes against ISIS.
Assad couldn’t even keep ISIS out of Damascus. Russian bombing here or there,ISIS is still holding certain neighborhoods in Assad’s capital. I’d bet almost any sum that ISIS has cells waiting in virtually every district in the city. I very much doubt that Russian bombing is going to dislodge them. Ground troops? Where are they? Putin said there would be none (despite the Duma vote).
So, let’s just wait and see. My crystal ball isn’t working. I don’t think yours is, either.

Guest

Re: ‘We here in the USA are no one to talk we have repeated the mistakes of Vietnam over and over again’

Woe to the world if the szaj of the US clamps shut! Perish the thought my friend.

István
Guest

I would simply say every comment posted in relationship to my maybe too long of a post is infinitely more thoughtful than what has come out of the Fidesz foreign policy establishment. The Kurds are a problem for US policy because of Turkey, we have slowly evolved to see them as allies in both Iraq and Syria. It is totally unclear I think to US foreign policy experts what the total land mass of a Kurdish state would be and that uncertainty is unnerving.

Webber
Guest

Istvan, I like plain talkin’:
The moment Turkey started clandestinely supporting ISIS was the moment Turkey’s concerns about the Kurds became irrelevant (to me, anyhow).
God bless Kurdistan.

István
Guest

I don’t have access to any intelligence information that supports the idea that Turkey provided material support to the Islamic State. I have seen articles like this http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/21/us-mideast-crisis-turkey-arms-idUSKBN0O61L220150521 which do raise the same issue as Webber does.

As we know parts of Pakistan intelligence service had a working relationship with both the Taliban and bin Laden so anything is possible. But based on what I have seen I give Turkey the benefit of a doubt on haivng covertly backed the Islamic State.

Webber
Guest
Istvan – As you so rightly recall, until Bin Laden was killed, many people (like you?) said “there was no evidence” that Pakistan had backed him. I understand the desire to get Pakistan (pardon, in this case Turkey) back on side. But going on experience, pretending there isn’t a problem does nothing to solve it. In any case, you might have missed it, but nobody serious is pretending Turkey isn’t backing ISIS any more. There are a long series of reports on ISIS fighters travelling straight through Turkey to get to Syria, with assistance from Turkish officials. Evidence of even worse has already been released. I quote: “One senior western official familiar with the intelligence gathered at the slain” (ISIS) “leader’s compound said that direct dealings between Turkish officials and ranking Isis members was now “undeniable”. “There are hundreds of flash drives and documents that were seized there,” the official told the Observer. “They are being analysed at the moment, but the links are already so clear that they could end up having profound policy implications for the relationship between us and Ankara.” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/26/isis-syria-turkey-us?CMP=share_btn_tw Also see the Newsweek article ‘”ISIS sees Turkey as its Ally” – Former Islamic State Member… Read more »
spectator
Guest

Sorry for the typos folk, I dropped my phone duting my comment and now I hardly see spmething due to cracked display.
See you later,

István
Guest

Because I have had interaction with Pakistan’s military in the context of UN peace keeping I have a propensity to believe the worst about them so that is in my case probably not the best comparison as it relates to my own thinking. But none the less my general thinking about Turkey’s relationship with the Islamic State is as I stated.

Reality Check
Guest

The NYT map only shows part of Syria, the capitol is not on map. Look at the BBC map.

Member
Hungarian PR: “260 milliót költöttek eddig menekültbuszoztatásra” (They spent 260 million forints or about 840,000 Euros on bussing the refugees) Understanding: Hungarians have to pick up the expense. http://index.hu/belfold/2015/10/01/260_milliot_koltottek_eddig_menekultbuszoztatasra/ Truth: “Hungary will receive €500 for each person relocated from Hungary to cover transport costs.” http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5597_en.htm BKV receives from the government 650 forint / km. With a generous 450 km distance 292,500 forint / bus or 1000 euro /bus. The basic BKV bus has 40 seats. The EU provides 40 x 500 = 20,000 euro / bus. There is no way the food and water would cost 19,000 euro for 40 people even if we include administration, security, etc. Hungarian PR: “Magyarországnak több mint 15 milliárd forint többletköltséget jelent az illegális bevándorlás ilyen mértékű növekedése – mondta Szijjártó Péter külgazdasági és külügyminiszter csütörtökön újságíróknak.” “Such growthrate of illegal immigraton cost Hungary 15 milliard forint overspending” said Peter Szijjarto “Napi 4300 forint egy menekült ellátásának költsége a Belügyminisztérium tájékoztatása szerint.” It costs 4300 forint [14 euro] a day to care for one refugee according to the Interior Ministry”. [It is not celar from the article if we are talking about those who are already registered or not.] http://www.tozsdeforum.hu/uzlet/gazdasag/novekszik-a-menekultek-ellatasanak-koltsege-57147.html http://vs.hu/kozelet/osszes/ellatas-zsebpenz-ennyibe-kerul-egy-menekult-naponta-0901#!s2 Understanding: Hungarians have… Read more »
Guest

Hehe Messrs Pete and Vik really have a great ‘fan club’ here…;-)..

And Magyar foreign policy sure looks Janus-like. Feeding lines out to cover all the bases …just to be safe. Not a clue though being thick as a plank in its formulations. Waiting to see the introduction of a new Budapest ‘Magyar Iskola of Diplomacy and Conflict Resolution’. Tag line: Theory, Practice and Utility of Diplomatic Pugilism For Leaders in the 21st Century.

And we have Pete giving a plug to the Czar who is trying allegedly to claw back onto the global stage after a Cold War defeat. That poor man. He needs Petey’s back-slap? And I can see Vlad blush as the Magyar FM (how did he get that job???) , just to be safe, mentions that in the interest of solidarity Magyarorszag will send rowboats if it has to to Tartus, that Syrian pinnacle of Russian power outside of its borders. Anybody check the water works in Magyarorszag? Really the viz has to be bad my correspondents. To come all this way after millennia…damn it is a damn shame.

Member

Lahti, a town of 100.000 inhabitants in Southern Finland, today witnessed two parallel demonstrations: “Open Lahti” against racism, “Close the Borders” against immigration. Roughly 1000 people (2/3 of them in the former group) on the market square, mainly peaceful (although in the latter crowd, there were a few drunks and offensively racist language was used). And in the latter crowd, also a guy (speaking native-sounding Finnish) with a Hungarian flag. The icon of racists… http://yle.fi/uutiset/lahden_tori_tayttyi_mielenosoittajista__satoja_ihmisia_liikkeella/8352068

spectator
Guest

To have feelings toward people with entirely different lifestyle/religion/color/race is acceptable. To have negative feelings is understandable. What is outside of the boundaries is (mine, for one) the hatred!
Hatred, without even knowing, what is this/these truly means!
Hatred, what basically the mirror image of one’s insecure and confused self-image, hatred what means only that “I don’t even want to think on alternatives”.

How sad and pathetic its ever gonna be?

Is this for real, that if someone is a Hungarian would automatically mean that she/he is all alone in the world, and the only thing’s ever gonna matter, how Viktor will evaluate my existence?

Yeah! and forget about all that bullshit about to be Human!

Is that really the ultimate test to fulfil the “Hungarian National Standard” – instead of being ‘Human Being’ – as a norm?

So, how about this, people? Isn’t it time to take sides?

spectator
Guest

As is the kind of smooth warning – if it ever was – please, try to take in account – or, at least imagine – that Viktor the Orbán will gain support, and eventually majority in all over Europe!

Then what?

Yes, it sounds overdriven, I know. But take your time and test the possibility!

Are you just as glad as I am?

In the tenth – or thereabout – times I refer to Stevan Harnad’s definition, the “Carpathian Carcinogen”!
Nobody ever defined better the “Orbanian effect”!

According to some thinkers, the effect is contagious!
I agree, fully, as it comes!

We haven’t seen half of it yet!

Webber
Guest

Spectator – forget it. That’s a line for Echo TV – or the new “lila gőz” Hungarian state t.v.
Orban as a model? Viktor’s Secret??
Completely ridiculous. Just look at this image of him closely – look at his eyes, the cut of his suit, his stature, his stomach…
http://444.hu/2015/09/29/orban-viktor-fogadta-az-obama-hazaspart/

Now, imagine him in a bikini.

I suggest you spend a week without consuming any Hungarian media whatsoever. It doesn’t matter what you watch/read, just as long as it isn’t Hungarian.

spectator
Guest
@Webber I hate the little weasel truly and honestly, through the last twenty or some years, and I even know, why. Otherwise remember, I am the one normally posting issues regarding his personality, behaviour and appearance , particularly because I believe that it matters a great deal, unfortunately! However, there is a bunch of similarly thinking lowlifes, who thinks that their time just came with the “true leader” – just like Adolf – and from now on they’ll support Orbáns’s lunacy, just for the sake of it. As it comes, usually the hight ‘challenged’ (Napoleon, for one) but otherwise ambitious little twits working themselves up to “leading” role – because tehy must prove it..! (Don’t ask me, “what”, please, I’m of average human size, so I wouldn’t know all the details..) All in all, I am entirely positive that Orbán going to have some international support, unless the mentally adept people unite and stop somehow the progress of the morons. Remember, it has happened once, and there is no reason, why shouldn’t it happen again! Otherwise the stocky little ‘wannabe emperor’ would have disappeared a while ago – but he didn’t! It must be enough for warning, mustn’t it? And… Read more »
Webber
Guest

Yeah, yeah…
Am I that much older than you?
I can remember the cult of Mao, and his Little Red Book.
I remember people with posters of Che in their lockers in school.
I’ve actually read Khaddafi’s Green Book.
Compared to those people, the Great O is even less than the sum of his parts. A nonentity.
Tell me one idea of his that has taken hold outside Hungary. No – tell me one idea of his that ANYBODY not Hungarian can even quote. Just one. Ask any non-Hungarian – which of Orban’s many wonderful ideas appeals to them most?….
There are so many physically challenged Great Leaders out there even now. Why would anyone imitate the Great O, when there are superior people like THIS out there? –

P.S. I always read, and very much appreciate most of your comments about the Great O!

Webber
Guest

P.S. The SOB can’t even fix an international soccer match, much less get together a single soccer team worthy of the name – and that’s his favorite sport! The SOB was one of Sepp Blatter’s greatest supporter! Need I say more?

spectator
Guest

Regarding your comment:
If reason had has anything to do with his existence, he would have disappeared at least ten years ago.
He didn’t.
So, it doesn’t matter who- or what he is really, all that matters is the perception of the voters.
Are tehy manipulated?
But of course!
Are they cajoled into supporting the most shameful political line in Europe of the century?
Definitely!
Some of the supporters even know, for Gods sake!

Read Karinthy’s “Barabbás” – and figure out the reason..!
(http://www.babelmatrix.org/works/hu/Karinthy_Frigyes/Barabbás)
Only one of the sources, there’s many more out there.

spectator
Guest
“Am I that much older than you?” Hardly! I actually paged the Little Red Book – sometimes in ’71 – or thereabout. One of my friends managed to acquire it somehow. Never mind, I’ve got the “Kama Sutra” – barely a square foot in size at the same time, it was much more interesting! (And she paged it too..) However: different times! To the new generation who has no idea what liberalism means, let alone communism, bolshevism or/and nazism, the whole Orbanist charade comes as something new, what they can identify with. Be honest, just how appealing is to the average citizen to share some place, money and resources with someone who has no idea what they are talking about, looks and clothes differently and worship God on totally different way? Unless, of course, if you managed to see the life from another point of view, from another level I’d say, and see the other person as a fellow human being in a need, or at least as someone who starting the life all over again, because he/she had to relocate of various reasons. So, back to the elementary question – in my opinion Orbán’s policy has a traction in… Read more »
Guest

@Spectator re “I actually paged the Little Red Book – sometimes in ’71 – or thereabout.”
I can easily top that! In the 60s we students all had the red book and I had a very cheap subscription to the English language China Times – it arrived every week via air mail and had the most beautiful stamps …
Peter Langos (Hungarian?), a friend of mine, took pride in walking on the campus with the Pravda – you could get that paper at the local news stand – his nickname was “Bomb Peter”, but actually he was/is a really nice guy – got a medal from the German government right now for his social work …

Guest

Another “nice” picture from one of my favourite Hungarian sites:
http://vakkomondor.tumblr.com/post/130389995534/paldanielrenyi-orban-putin-freedom-at-toldi
Look here for more:
http://vakkomondor.tumblr.com/archive

petofi
Guest

Hungarian mentality is not easy: with all the bad mouthing of Socialists/Communists by Viktor the O and his bunny, Szijjarto, how do Hungarians swallow the dreamy love affair with Putin?

Webber
Guest

🙂
This is how (for those who speak Hungarian)comment image

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