The attitude of Hungarians to the refugee crisis

We have been so preoccupied with the global aspects of the refugee crisis that we have neglected its domestic aspects. We know that Viktor Orbán’s response to the refugee crisis has met with widespread approval and that Fidesz’s popularity has grown. We also have a sense that Jobbik by and large supports the government even if it would introduce even more draconian measures against the would-be immigrants. MSZP, sensing the general anti-immigrant sentiment, is sitting on the fence and refuses to commit itself. The party’s leaders like to describe their position on the issue as “positive neutrality.” The parties that are sympathetic to the asylum seekers and would welcome them as permanent residents and eventual new citizens are Ferenc Gyurcsány’s Demokratikus Koalíció (DK); Együtt, headed by Viktor Szigetvári; and Párbeszéd Magyarországért (PM), led by Gergely Karácsony and Tímea Szabó. These parties advocate an open door policy. Együtt, in fact, even mentioned a figure: 15,000 immigrants could easily be integrated into Hungarian society.

These are impressions gathered from newspaper articles and interviews. No polls dealing explicitly with the attitudes of Hungarians to the refugee crisis were available until yesterday. Now, thanks to Medián, we have a better idea of what goes on in Hungarian heads when it comes to these strangers who briefly appeared in their country. Twelve hundred interviews were conducted between September 11 and 15 in 100 localities. The margin of error is ±3%.

source: Cornell University Library

Source: Cornell University Library

The poll is very thorough. Almost no relevant questions about the migration crisis were left out, starting with the respondents’ general familiarity with the facts. As usual, they are poorly informed about even such basic facts as the number of migrants who entered and promptly left the country or the number who are currently in refugee camps. Although the poll takers, not having precise numbers themselves, allowed a generous leeway, only 46% of the population had an approximate idea of the number of arrivals, which they greatly underestimated. The same was true about the current inhabitants of refugee camps, except that in this case they grossly overestimated their numbers. But that was expected.

I guess it is again no surprise that while 66% of the population are familiar with Fidesz’s “solution” to the migration crisis, few people are familiar with the proposals of opposition parties. Only 36% of the adult population are familiar with the stance of MSZP and only 34% with the ideas of Jobbik. Among the smaller parties, DK’s proposals are known by 20% of the people, followed by LMP, Együtt, and PM.

Based on this sample, the number of Hungarians who would like to introduce even harsher measures against the migrants is very high: 79% of the population, a figure that has grown substantially since November 2014 when it was only 66%. The number of those who would limit the number of “colored people” (színesbőrűek) has also grown since November 2014, from 47% to 57%. Medián is inclined to look upon this development not so much as racism pure and simple but as a corollary to the general fear of migrants. At the same time homophobia and anti-Semitism have decreased somewhat.

Respondents were asked to grade, on a scale of 1 to 100, the performance of various groups, personalities, and countries involved in one way or the other with the refugee crisis. It seems that people think very highly of the activities of the police (73). They also consider the volunteers’ work admirable (67), while they gave only a 56 to the government’s handling of the crisis. They were also dissatisfied with the role Austria, Germany, and the EU played during the crisis. I was somewhat surprised that while Hungarians had a rather low opinion of the Hungarian Catholic Church’s role (46), they were also dubious about the part Pope Francis played in the crisis (53). One is inclined to think that the respondents had only a vague notion of the disparity between the position of the Hungarian Catholic Church and that of Pope Francis.

One interesting aspect was the general condemnation of the United States, although the U.S. has rarely been discussed in connection with the crisis. The right-wing media does, however, suggest that the whole refugee crisis is the fault of the United States, a country that is not taking its fair share in light of the chaos that followed its occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. They also blame the United States for the civil war in Syria in an indirect way. If Washington hadn’t supported the Arab Spring, then ….

Overwhelmingly, Hungarians fear the refugees. Somewhat irrationally, what they fear most is the possibility of contagion: these strangers will bring diseases that might spread to Hungarians. It doesn’t matter that members of the medical community have repeatedly declared in television interviews that such a danger is practically nonexistent. On the other hand, Fidesz politicians love to frighten people with such illnesses as malaria, which we know is not an infectious disease, or with AIDS, which is not readily communicated. They are also afraid of terrorism, about which they hear a lot in the pro-government media. At the same time they believe that the asylum seekers should be treated humanely (72). But they say that the migrants don’t obey the country’s laws and customs and that they are violent (67).

As far as the population’s opinion of the government’s preparedness and handling of the crisis is concerned, it is not the best. Although the government knew what was coming, it did nothing to prepare for the onslaught (65). How well is the government doing its job? Not very well (54). Sentiment is in favor of making illegal border crossing a crime that merits jail time, not just expulsion as is the practice now.

What should happen to the asylum seekers? Again, on a scale of 1 to 100, the option that they should be settled wherever they want to go scored a 61. So, in this case, all refugees should settle in Germany and Sweden. A second alternative is that they should be settled in all the member states of the Union (50). The idea that immigration is beneficial to Europe for demographic reasons was generally rejected (26).

The Hungarian population is completely divided on the issue of what to do with the refugees who enter Hungary. Thirty-four percent of them would like to hermetically seal the borders; 33% are of the opinion that all refugees should be let go; and 27% believe that refugee camps should be established and that the asylum seekers should be kept there until their fate is decided.

Medián pollsters were also interested in the approval or disapproval of building fences along the Serbian and Croatian borders, broken down by party sympathies. Sixty-eight percent of Hungarians approve of the government’s decision to build a fence. Not surprisingly, support is greatest among Fidesz (87%) and Jobbik (80%) voters, while the least support comes from voters of DK, Együtt, PM, MLP, and MOMA (25%). (MLP is a small liberal party and MOMA is a moderate right-of-center party.) I was surprised to see that almost half of LMP voters strongly support Viktor Orbán’s fence (48%), surpassing the voters of MSZP who are most likely influenced by their party’s cautious attitude, fearing the loss of support if they manfiest too “radical” a solution to the refugee crisis. The attitude of LMP voters suggests a move toward Jobbik and Fidesz instead of toward the liberal bloc’s pro-refugee attitude.

In addition, Medián asked several more questions, refining its overall results. One was whether there is a likelihood that sooner or later the Muslims will become a majority in Europe. Fifty-four percent of the electorate think that this will indeed be the case. Again it is Fidesz (70%), Jobbik (63%), and LMP (52%) voters who are most fearful, while MSZP sympathizers are in the middle with 42% and DK, Együtt, PM, MLP, and MOMA followers are the least worried (17%). Fifty-eight percent of Hungarian adults consider the immigrants aggressive and demanding and only 42% look upon them as peaceful and cooperative.

There is one issue on which I find the results puzzling in light of the rest of the findings. That is, the answers to the question “how much do you agree that it might be advantageous to Hungary to accept the refugees and thus moderate the decrease of the population while at the same time acquiring a larger labor pool.” The answers on a scale of 1 to 100 are inexplicable: Jobbik voters are naturally the least enthusiastic (17), followed by Fidesz (25), MSZP (40), DK-Együtt-PM-MPL-MOMA (40) and LMP (42). LMP 42? Even more liberal than the small liberal parties on the question of immigration?

All in all, this poll indicates that government propaganda has been effective in reinforcing the ingrained Hungarian distrust of foreigners. The government might not be getting kudos for its handling of the refugee crisis, but it is winning the propaganda war.

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Member

“One interesting aspect was the general condemnation of the United States, although the U.S. has rarely been discussed in connection with the crisis”

IF, the Ludas Matyi cartoon magazine was still published today, and on the cover, (as they used to show it back then) Ivan and Joe with the Globe behind them, would be talking about some international political issue, now it would be Joe, who would be representing the enemy’s opinion and not Ivan, as it used to be in the Kadar era, when this was a form of critical poke against the occupying Russians.
So be it. Perhaps soon, the viktor will have to CALL IN the Russian troops for help to quell the counter-revolution against his Government, blaming it to be instigated by the imperialist USA.
I can hardly wait. After the Russian occupation, (a repeat performance of 1956), most Hungarians would be living again in the happiest barrack within the Russian occupied countries.

“HISTORY DOESN’T REPEAT ITSELF, BUT IT DOES RHYME. (Mark Twain)

Guest

You know there was another poll by Median done back in ’14 which looked at the deterioration of relations between the US and Hungary. On that 57% noted that it was Hungary who affected that the most. That’s almost 6 out of 10.

Maybe America gets a little break there in the boxing ring. Perhaps the incessant anti-American rhetoric by Fidesz may not find such an easy perch to hang onto when it comes to some issues. Looks as if some Hungarian antennae are picking up signals indicating that the country has to share in the mismanagement of the relationship. It’s not a one-way street.

Istvan
Guest

Eva I think the question itself is a problem: “how much do you agree that it might be advantageous to Hungary to accept the refugees and thus moderate the decrease of the population while at the same time acquiring a larger labor pool.”

What does a larger pool of labor mean in simple economics? For Hungarian and other lower wage workers in Central Europe, immigration is primarily seen as a redistributive policy. Economic theory predicts that immigration will redistribute income by lowering the wages of competing Hungarian workers and increasing the wages of complementary Hungarian managerial workers as well as profits for business owners and other “users” of immigrant labor. Although the overall net impact on the native-born might be small, the loss or gain for particular groups of the population can be substantial. Since the existing wage levels in Hungary are already low the idea of increasing the labor pool could not sit well with many people who might grasp the implications for wages.

Member

I am not sure if there are minimum wage set for each EU country. I do know that paying minimum wage in Canada and in the USA are mandatory. I am not sure if wages are lower in any of these countries because of the large number of immigrants or not. I do know that new immigrants mainly get jobs that no “old citizens” wants to do. Even when unemployment rate is high, there are certain jobs that experience about shortage. Such jobs in the past were construction workers, garbage workers, textile workers, sewing workers, roofers, etc. When some of those unionize, wages go up from minimum. in fact many educated immigrants take on jobs that they are greatly overqualified. These is very much true for those Hungarians too who found a better life in London, or in Germany.

Live long and prosper
Guest
I have just returned from 3 days on the border with Croatia and I would like to report on the behaviour of the police and army who were deployed on the Hungarian side of the border at Zakany: they were mostly disrespectful and gruff towards the refugees, which was emphasised by the wearing of masks (surgical and dust type) and latex gloves; they were all armed, the army heavily so; there were many more of them than necessary, their job being to form a corridor between the opening in the border and the (filthy) nearby trains, and to supervise the loading and embarkation. They mostly looked somewhat shambokic, with ill-fitting uniforms and some of the police (20%?) were obese. Some of the police also carried hand-held CS gas canisters. Which they drew and held in their hands whilst marshalling the refugees, who were tired and subdued. One of the volunteers reported that one of the senior policeman on site had been seen wearing a t-shirt with a fascist symbol. What I did see was a gruff brusqueness which spoke volumes about their distrust and dislike of the refugees, so very different from the smiling German policemen who greeted the first… Read more »
Tyrker
Guest

“very different from the smiling German policemen who greeted the first refugees”

Oh, it’s easy to greet the first ones with a smile. When you are dealing with the 330,000th, you are bound to be a little more burnt out. The Germans’ Wilkommenskultur is quickly vanishing into thin air too – their minister of the interior, Thomas de Maizière is now saying, “There are many refugees who believe that they can just allocate themselves. They leave the facilities and order a taxi — and then, surprisingly, they have the money to drive hundreds of kilometres across Germany. They strike because they don’t like the way they’re accommodated, they create trouble because they don’t like the food, or they get into fist fights in the refugee centres.”

Member

Hey Tyrker, you are so welcome to post any photographs where the Hungarian police “greet the first ones with a smile”.
Surely I am not alone who would love to see the smiling group photos! Since there are hundreds if not thousands of photos are on the Internet, I am sure it will be easy to find just one. Please do come back when you found it.

Nádas
Guest

Some1, don’t forget that by the time large numbers of Middle Eastern, Central Asian and African migrants began arriving at the southern border in large groups in early summer, the border police had already been dealing with an unprecedented influx from Kosovo and Albania for several months. They were taking in up to 300 each night, while many more were slipping through undetected, and were struggling to process them in a timely manner. The police force’s sense of hospitality had long since been worn out by the time the first Syrians arrived.

Member

Thank you for this personal account. There always be the “know at alls” who have never been close to the situation, but hearing it from someone who in fact was there does matter.

gdfxx
Guest
I am surprised at your conclusion, based on the description of what you saw. The police and the army is not there as a welcoming committee but to keep order. Smiling is not necessarily their task. The fact that they wore masks and rubber gloves is not at all extraordinary. If you watch clips of the Greek authorities registering the migrants on their islands, they also wear masks and gloves. They have no idea what illnesses the migrants may carry. I don’t understand what the weight of the policemen has to do with the topic. is there some requirement for policemen at the border to be fit? That their uniforms were ill-fitting is another irrelevant fact. I wonder how a volunteer saw a senior policeman’s t-shirt, did he undress? The fact that the were carrying canisters of tear gas is also not that unusual, after all they were there to control the crowds. Same for their weapons. Generally, police doing crowd control are not smiling and friendly. Especially when the crowds they control do not speak their language. The fact that the trains were filthy has nothing to do with the police. My bottom line to this post is that… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

To clarify, the above comment was a reply to Live long and prosper’s comment on
October 9, 2015 at 2:08 am. For some reason the blog machine did not place it there.

Live long and prosper
Guest
You’ve made your position clear. There are reasons why it matters to be simply kind and charitable to people who are making a difficult journey after taking the momentous decision to abandon their (perhaps ruined) homes and home towns and leave a war torn country. If those reasons are not obvious to you, then your opinion is of no interest to me. There was a subtler point which I could have elaborated: if you have a rag tag army or police force, fat, unfit, poorly dressed, led by fascists (so many seem to be attracted to the services as a way for them to feel some power over others), then it is inevitable that they will not develop respect for themselves, and will as a result fail to respect others. Failing to offer clean transport (I mean with clean toilets, principally) says a lot, most unfortunately, about Hungarian attitudes. It is unnecessary to display assault weapons and crowd control gas canisters unless you are dealing with an unruly crowd which can reasonably be expected to become violent. The tired, shuffling refugees are already cowed, displays of strength and power are pointless (I would say in poor taste, but that’s just… Read more »
Guest

I have only a few things to comment:

Luckily not all Hungarians are like this …

But there is a “silent majority” of people I don’t understand.

What I find especially crazy is the position of some Hungarians which made it (or whose parents made it …) to the “Free West” and which show racism and all the other prejudices you can think of.
Unbelievable!

PS:
There’s a comment on the online site of the German mag SPIEGEL which says essentially:
The EU would be fine without Britain and those Eastern Europeans (which of course includes Hungary, though Hungarians pride themselves sometimes of being part of Central Europe – which is only true geographically, but not in spirit …)

Live long and prosper
Guest

I agree, the short memory is a bit baffling, but many here would be quick to assert that ‘Christian’ Europeans fleeing Stalinist oppression were far more worthy recipients of kindness and generosity than ‘Muslim invaders’. If it wasn’t so dispicable it would be funny. And the ‘Christians’ are seemingly blind to the awful selective interpretation of Christ’s teachings, eg of the Good Samaritan. Of course there are wonderful Hungarians, just as there are good people everywhere, but they are too silent and that’s because they don’t believe that they can safely raise their voice. Exactly why I don’t comment under my own name. My Hungarian wife is afraid of what could be the personal consequences of my criticisms. That says a lot right there. So much for freedom of speech!

Member

I would just like to say that the area I live in, in western Canada, there are very large amounts of racist people. So many of which are of German and Ukrainian heritage. They too forget that they were once immigrants, but of course they make silly claims such as “when my family came here, they didn’t get anything and did it all on their own”, or “my family was an early settler, so we are more Canadian than the ones coming now”. Most of these peoples ancestors were in fact given FREE land if they were willing to farm it. Now these families are very wealthy, huge amounts of farmland and many also have oil reserves. It sickens me to listen to them sometimes because I know they were actually given EVERYTHING.

Wondercat
Guest

Zákány was empty today, to the extent that I could judge from the window of a train on the Pécs – Szombathely run. No policemen on the platforms at Gyékényes, only a RENDÕRSÉG van.

The only trace of migrants were the heaps of rubbish along the rail line, flung, it seems likely, from windows of wagons on their way north to Murakeresztúr.

LwiiH
Guest

To say there is a propaganda war is to say there is a credible outlet for opposing points of view. We all know those channels have been mostly shutdown. Shame on the opposition to not speak out, to offer the truth about what’s going on.

Nádas
Guest
By advocating an open-door refugee policy, Gyurcsány, DK, and the others have ensured that they will likely continue to wander in the political wilderness for a long time to come, as this is clearly opposed by the majority of Hungarians. If the migrants were still streaming from Röszke to Budapest and camping out in the train stations today, the numbers opposing their presence would be even higher. Contrast Együtt’s suggestion that Hungary could accept 15,000 immigrants with David Cameron’s response in Britain: the UK will take in 20,000 over the next five years, and they must apply for asylum from outside the EU. Meanwhile in Germany, up to 10,000 migrants of various nationalities are still entering the country every single day. The Bavarian state government, without Berlin’s approval, is considering closing their border with Austria again, and the Austrians are warning of possible riots. Social services in Germany have been overwhelmed, to put it mildly, by unruly migrants. Violence among different nationalities – easily touched off given the frustration and boredom among all those cooped-up young men – is occurring more frequently in the refugee centers. So are incidences of rape, according to Spiegel online. This is the real-world result… Read more »
Tyrker
Guest

Correct analysis there, Nádas.

RealityCheck
Guest

Everyday policemen deal with an aggressive and law breaking subpopulation of Hungarians. Would you suggest that Hungarian police treat all Hungarians as potential lawbreakers and treat them in an intimidating way? Be rude and disrespectful of them?

Of the 1000’s of immigrants who have moved through Hungary a very small minority have displayed aggressive behavior. Do you lump all into the same category because a few have misbehaved?

If you do, then you are exhibiting bigoted thinking.

Nádas
Guest

In your own home you expect to have to deal with your own badly-behaving children. When you have a party, you expect your guests to act civilized and have a good time. A couple of brawlers spoil it for everyone, and might make you think twice before you throw the next party.

Let’s just wait and see how the party develops in Germany.

Reality Check
Guest

That is a simple-minded, lazy, and bigoted approach to your fellow humans.

Under your thinking there would be no outsiders in Hungary who are treated well, since among outsiders there will always be bad apples. Just spend a night in Budapest and sample the behavior or some individual Brits, Americans, etc. You single out a group for disrespectful rrestment.

These are desperate people fleeing danger and they should be treated with kindness and respect even if there are a few among them who act unlawfully.

Nádas
Guest
RC, there is no doubt that virtually all of the migrants are desperate. But almost none were in serious danger once they reached Turkey. Many among them are not fleeing danger, they’re fleeing poverty. Unfortunately, the EU has decided that is not a strong enough criterion for non-Syrians to be allowed in. The Hungarian government, in its less-than-subtle way, wanted to be in physical control of the situation at the border and within the borders. And that is their right. The Croatians and Slovenians have also been exercising their rights, you may have noticed. I think it’s you who are too lazy to think through the reality of the situation. Just pay attention to how things develop in Germany in the coming weeks. Keep an eye on Sweden. People’s “kindness and respect” are running out pretty quickly in both places. As for badly-behaved foreigners in Budapest, I once saw a group of Norwegians who wanted to throw a brick through the window of a nightclub because they were too drunk to be allowed in. Had they done so, they would have been arrested (and beaten up by the bouncers for good measure) and suffered the consequences. Nonetheless, they were in… Read more »
Guest
From a speech by VO “I think we have a right to decide that we do not want a large number of Muslim people in our country. We do not like the consequences of having a large number of Muslim communities that we see in other countries and I do not see any reason for anyone else to force us to create ways of living together in Hungary that we do not want to see. That is a historical experience for us.” (VO was focused on the Ottoman invasions) A view in contrast to Merkel’s. I would imagine we can expect to see in a few years the results from the German and Hungarian experimental laboratories which would show the effects of European migration on their countries. I’ d think that VO’s foray back into the past to rationalize present attitudes and behavior on migrants also had to be in Merkel’s mind as well but yet even looking back to a greatly troubled past she has Germany being not afraid of a possible ‘Trojan Horse’ as Hungary is. So we have two diametrically different points of view as a result of past experience. One thing to perhaps watch out more… Read more »
Istvan
Guest

Nadas unfortunately Merkel’s fully articulated unlimited refugee admission policy, maybe even militant in tone, is totally unbalanced and unrealistic. My fear is that the German population will shift to the right in reaction to this unbalanced position adopted by Merkel.

For such an intelligent woman on this issue she is thinking with her heart and not her mind. Is there any question that the Russian version of shock and awe in Syria will accelerate the refugee process. I mean is any Syrian safe who is not a member of the regime’s sectarian base relying upon the Alawite minority? While there is no question that my country the USA opened up Pandora’s box in the Middle East post 9/11, but the Russians are adding to the chaos.

Given this context the statements being broadcast around the world by Merkel about not limiting refugees admitted to Germany is extradionary in its lack of caution. Maybe, she does not understand the impact her comments will have on incrediably desperate people who may now even make the run for Germany during the winter.

Member

Istvan, There was the German example of what happens when “thinking with the mind” to please the German population could do. Shifting to the right or shifting to the left is simply a matter of interpretation but the outcome in both cases could be devastating. I not think Merkel is thinking with her heart, she simply uses her head to find a balance.

petofi
Guest

One has to wonder why NATO hasn’t insisted on their allies–Greece and Turkey–to handle the refugee registration in-place and thereby prevent the mass exodus into Europe. It could all have been financed–and still may be–by the EU; and staffed by them, too.

Another thing: the UNHCR could be put in place in various (fairly secure) places in Syria to process the refugees. Presumably, the EU is concerned with Syrian refugees at this point and not African, Balkan, or Asian migrants who are now piggy-back riding the system.

In other words, there must be some serious ‘disconnect’ between NATO/EU/UN for the situation to be as disorganized as it is presently.

Nádas
Guest

It is not a military issue, so NATO is not involved. In Turkey it should be a UN issue, in Greece it’s an EU issue. The Greeks, with a little help from Frontex, did try to register some of the migrants as they arrived on Lesbos, but it was a half-hearted effort and they apparently had only one Arabic speaker, and he would go home at 2pm. In any case, no one blames Greece for not having to deal with yet another problem.

Guest
I am entirely unsurprised by the perfectly predictable Hungarian reactions to the migration crisis. I am somewhat disappointed though by the hapless impotence of the EU in the face of the crisis, but above all, I am totally nonplussed by the seemingly foolish naiveté of some governments and populations in Europe, such as Germany’s or Sweden’s, good-hearted and sincerely well intentioned as their actions and reactions might have been. If the “all of a sudden urgent” problem is population decline and potential labour and taxpayer shortages in the future, it would have surely made a lot more sense to simply continue to encourage East Europeans, but also the unemployed from France, Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal, or even appropriately qualified immigrants from South America, India, or Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai people from the Far East, to take up residence in Germany or Sweden, to fill current and future vacancies in the labour market. In this connection I am not sure that Syrian/Iraqi, Afghan, Benghali, Sudanese or Eritrean peasants (the vast majority in the current immigration wave) are exactly what Europe, and in particular Germany or Sweden needs to make up for some future labour and taxpayer shortages, as it seems to… Read more »
Reality Check
Guest

What makes you think that “East Europeans, but also the unemployed from France, Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal, or even appropriately qualified immigrants from South America, India, or Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai people from the Far East, to take up residence in Germany or Sweden” these people would have the language skills to live in Sweden or Germany? Most eastern Europeans and Far Easterners do not speak German or Swedish, nor do many of them have 21st job skills.

Guest
@Reality Check October 9, 2015 at 9:32 am Good point, Reality Check. I would suppose that an Arab, Eritrean or Pashtu peasant can be taught just as readily the menial jobs Swedes and Germans would rather not do, as peasants from anywhere else in the world, and language skills, at least initially, and education levels, or 21st century work skills are just as irrelevant to the one group as to the other. But I was thinking more in terms of long term properly organized immigration programs for appropriately qualified people from around the world, which could be a large part of the solution to Europe’s looming labour shortage, just as it has been the solution historically in countries like Australia. In the case of migrants under such programs, relevant language skills could be relatively quickly acquired, if government funded intensive full-time live-in Swedish and German language programs were made available for them, with stipends, before they actually entered the work force. Such a system has more than proven itself in Israel over the past six decades. What I failed to mention in my post is that the principal advantage of Eastern and Southern Europeans, South Americans, Hindus, Sikhs, Chinese and… Read more »
Webber
Guest
Mike, you wrote: “the principal advantage of Eastern and Southern Europeans, … is that they are not consumed by hatred of the Western liberal democratic value system” Apparently you don’t consume Hungarian or Russian media. Those who do without reflection are taught to hate Western liberal democratic values. Some of them, living in Western countries now, demonstrate that with posts here. And you wrote: “I am of course genetically disposed to bigoted racism” Now, of course, you are being sarcastic. You know as well as anyone there is no genetic disposition to any attitude. However, a recent study the sociologist Jon Fox did of Hungarian immigrants to the United Kingdom is worth mention. He found that Hungarian immigrants were far, far more likely than native Brits to be racists and to reject many democratic values. Given the media they consumed before they moved to Britain, perhaps this is not surprising. Culture matters. You have argued (contradict me if I’m wrong) that certain groups – entire groups! – from Arab countries should not be allowed to migrate to the West because they bring anti-liberal, anti-democratic values. I’ll leave aside the foulness of seeing people as symbols and groups, and not as… Read more »
Member

@Mike Balint “If the “all of a sudden urgent” problem is population decline and potential labour and taxpayer shortages in the future, it would have surely made a lot more sense to simply continue to encourage East Europeans”
all of sudden? Whet do you mean by all of sudden? They are already having problems.
By the way, are you supporting to Hungarians to immigrate to “those” countries? You know that is happening, right? You know that the last few years over half a million Hungarians left, right? So, your solutions is to empty the layout force of Eastern European countries, and leave them at their perils?

Guest

@Some1
October 9, 2015 at 8:49 am

Yes. The simple answer is a definite yes.

Better to work and earn a decent wage in the West than be unemployed or work for starvation wages or an even smaller pittance in Eastern Europe.

Just because Eastern European societies cannot get their act together does not mean that a person should stay put and suffer the fools there out of some mistaken sense of patriotism.

Anyway, if you are so concerned about the depletion of the labour force in Hungary through emigration, what are you doing sitting and sputtering in Canada, instead of going back to Hungary to help increase the dangerously diminishing labour force there?

Member

Let me remind you it is not me who have the problem with the immigrants but you. I have no problem with immigrants arriving and filling the jobs in Hungary or for that matter in Canada. I am not scared from the “terrorists” who will use the coverup as sewage workers. You have no problem that people will live to earn “decent wage in the West” and you have problem with immigrants who maybe “work for starvation wages or an even smaller pittance in Eastern Europe.”
I cannot follow your logic that is all.

Guest

@Some1
October 9, 2015 at 10:03 pm

I have no problems whatsoever with any middle class immigrants from anywhere in the world.

However, I do have a problem with peasants, tribesmen and other primitives, particularly from Sunni Moslem communities in Central Asia, the Greater Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa.

I take a common sense approach to this matter, rather than an ideological one.

But then of course I am a bigot and a racist, and not a righteous human rights fundamentalist, like yourself.

Member

I did not see “peasants, tribesmen and other primitives” on any pictures taken at the Hungarian border. I am sure that the state media and Jobbik would fully cover such opportunity, but maybe you have seen it. Can you share the photos? I never sad that extremists, terrorist or whatever that “mark” is, does not enter with all the legitimate refugees. Most of us know that there are extremists, but we cannot simply seal the opportunity from those who “deserve” it because there are extremists hiding between them.

Member

To those who would like to do something (instead of telling others what to do) but have no way of helping:

One of the largest, and most active volunteer civil initiative to help refugees arriving to Hungary reach their assigned refugee camps, Migration Aid needs your help.
You can send money via PayPal donation@migrationaid.net

If you are in Hungary and would like to donate much needed supply, this is what they are looking for today:
0.5 l still water
0.2 l juice
apple
dates
muesli bars
plastic lunch bags
OMV gift card (to support the fuel costs of volunteer transporters)
Shipping address:
2000 Szentendre, Bor street 6.
Reception times: 10.00 – 20.00 weekdays (NOT on weekends or holidays)

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Webber
Guest

Based on a comment or two above, I guess it’s time for this – an interview with a refugee and pop star, Rita Ora, who said of herself: “I believe in God and I’m of Muslim culture”

So, this is music from a Muslim refugee:

Scary?

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