International conspiracy to change the face of Europe, according to Viktor Orbán

Yesterday Viktor Orbán held his regular Friday morning interview at Magyar Rádió, and later he delivered a speech at a gathering organized by the Association of Christian Intelligentsia, the Association of Hungarian Civic Cooperation, and the Batthyány Circle of Professors. All three are closely allied with Fidesz. The Association of Christian Intelligentsia in 2009 joined CÖF (Civil Összefogás Fórum), the group responsible for the peace marches. The current president of the Association of Hungarian Civic Cooperation is Zoltán Balog, minister of human resources. Earlier János Martonyi, the former foreign minister, filled the post. The pro-Fidesz professors’ association has been in existence since 1995. Its first president was József Pálinkás, minister of education in the first Orbán government. So, Viktor Orbán was very much at home.

The event was organized in response to a booklet that pro-Fidesz “intellectuals” and the supporting Catholic clergy who are involved with the Association of Christian Intelligentsia had written. The booklet, “Signs of the Times,” is, as far as I can ascertain, a set of guiding principles for the Hungarian right.

Because of the heavy emphasis on religion, specifically Catholicism, it is not surprising that Orbán’s speech was mostly about the relationship between state and church, specifically the close ties between Fidesz and the Catholic Church. He spent only a few sentences on the refugee issue, but it was that topic that was widely reported in Hungary and abroad. Although, following their example, I will start with this topic, I’m planning to return to the rest of the speech soon. The comments he made on the refugee issue at this gathering must be analyzed in conjunction with his longer rumination on the problem and its Hungarian solution on Hungarian state radio.

As far as Viktor Orbán is concerned, the refugee crisis is over. The Hungarian position is simple. No migrant, refugee or not, will ever enter Hungary not only because there is now a well-guarded fence but because, by the time the asylum seekers reach Turkey, their lives are no longer in danger. They are no longer refugees, and therefore Hungary has no obligation to accept them. Moreover, Brussels will not be able to send any refugees back to Hungary just because they were initially registered on Hungarian soil. The Hungarian position is that, since they entered the European Union in Greece, it should have been Greece that registered them. This train of thought is logical enough as long as one thinks in terms of individual nation states acting entirely independently. But EU membership means that countries have to act for the common good as well as in their own self-interest.

As for distributing bona fide refugees among member states, Hungary finds the whole procedure illegal, irrational, and unfair. Alluding to Germany, he claimed that “it is not correct to invite people into our country and then divvy them up among other nations.” But he proposed an even more dangerous idea. The bureaucrats in Brussels want to make this plan permanent and automatic, which is completely unacceptable. No one can force sovereign countries “to admit people whom they don’t want.” Such a move challenges the very foundation of a European Union built on nation states. He suggests that since there is, in his opinion, no acceptable EU solution to the problem, “each country should solve this problem itself, just as Hungary did.”

A decision that would mandate an automatic distribution of refugees among member states “might be a liberal [solution], but [it is] not a democratic solution.” EU politicians cannot ignore the will of the people. Neither the national parliaments nor the European Parliament voted for such a solution. “In this case, a crisis of democracy will break out in Europe,” which may lead to anarchy.

Orbán, completely ignoring the wars raging in the Middle East, makes the human traffickers and, for good measure, the human rights activists responsible for the refugee crisis. As I wrote earlier, without the help of locals it is almost impossible to move illegally across borders. This is especially true when it comes to crossing a body of water. So, blaming the traffickers for the flow of escapees is simply foolish. Even in 1956 there were “human traffickers,” some of whom were quite decent.

In the past Orbán often talked about human traffickers as the real source of the refugee crisis but what was new today was that he found another culprit: those activists who helped the asylum seekers on their way to Germany and beyond. “In the United States and in Western Europe there is a whole network of these activists, which includes György Soros, whose name is the hallmark of those who assist everything that makes the nation states weak and who support everything that changes the customary European lifestyle, from human conduct to immigration.” These activists, by helping the immigrants, unwittingly become part of the illegal international human trafficking network. Among the bureaucrats in Brussels there are many “activist types” who think that the present immigration will help create the kind of Europe they imagine as ideal. For him that kind of Europe is unacceptable. His ideal is a nineteenth-century nation state best characterized by his crude demand for “a Hungarian Hungary.”

One can move seamlessly from Orbán’s contrast between Soros’s cosmopolitan attitude and strong (Christian) nation states to the distinction between Jewish internationalism and local nationalism. Cosmopolitanism for Orbán means exactly what it used to mean during the Rákosi and Kádár periods. To understand what that word meant then, let me quote from the Idegen szavak és kifejezések szótára (Dictionary of foreign words and expressions) published in 1973: “cosmopolitanism is a bourgeois ideology that tries to discredit patriotism, national feeling, and national culture.” Jewishness and cosmopolitanism in Eastern Europe were seen as going hand in hand. Compare that with the definition of cosmopolitanism in Wikipedia: “Cosmopolitanism is the ideology that all human beings belong to a single community based on a shared morality.”Orbán is stuck in the Hungary of 1973.

cosmopolitanism

With this, we can move back to Orbán’s speech delivered to the representatives of Fidesz-affiliated civic organizations, some of which are allied with the Catholic Church. As something of a footnote to his speech he told the audience about the seriousness of the refugee crisis and urged the writers and editors of “Signs of the Times” to include it among the topics to be discussed later at right-wing think tanks. He has been thinking a lot about the topic, but his thoughts haven’t quite jelled. In two weeks he hopes to have them ready in their final form for the next Fidesz Congress.

He is certain that “the European Union’s indecision, bungling or mistaken sizing up of the situation” is not the cause of the endless flow of refugees. After all, European great powers have the brain power, money, and surveillance organizations to know ahead of time about the migrant traffic. He is convinced that the activists in Brussels are intentionally bringing these migrants into Europe. They are not just coming on their own but are being transported. The European left wants to create a new political international world. This is being achieved through an emphasis on human rights, and “the right of escape, migration, movement … is considered to be part of human rights.” Viktor Orbán refuses to accept that view. I hate to think where such restrictions on movement could lead.

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Guest

For those who want to enjoy the speech in the speaker’s own presentation: https://youtu.be/RKsiURFVwEU

german1971
Guest

Why to quote/analyze/republish the nonsense?

Phrasing?

We see that this regime is making many empty transparently fabricated statements just to spread confusion.

Eliezer
Guest

Victor Orban is completely right in protecting his nation and in his suspicion of conspiracy. He is completely right that the present Europe is going mad, and he does not want his country to share in this schizophrenia.

Member

Eliezer: I would love to know what is the fantastic benefit that anyone can derive from spending thousand of dollars on transporting refugees to Europe! Please go on with your theory about how anyone can take advantage of this conspiracy. We do know how Viktor and his buddies take advantage of misleading the nation, but I am not sure what would the benefit in bankrupting Europe. Please teach us!

Eliezer
Guest
but I am not sure what would the benefit in bankrupting Europe. Please teach us! It seems you completely agree with me this time, so what do you want me to teach you? In today’s NY Times they write that a German town of 102 villagers is required to accommodate 750 migrants! I do not understand the Germans: 2-3 moths ago they were very strict with the Greeks and did not want to give them more money. True, the Greeks had misbehaved and were rather arrogant, still they are of the same culture and they wanted to use loans on their own soil. And now Germany is ready to accept huge numbers of migrants of a completely different culture, rather hostile, to feed them on the Germany’s soil and to wait them to bring their families! I am afraid that the EU will not survive for long. You, the Hungarians, are very lucky with the prime-minister who protects you from this stupid German behavior. Mr. Petofi uses the words of “the so-called intelligentsia” – I would say about “so-called liberals” that do not care at all about welfare and long-term survival of their nations, of the Western civilization. Multiculturalism has… Read more »
exTor
Guest

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/world/europe/german-village-of-102-braces-for-750-asylum-seekers.html

It’s okay, Eliezer, Some1 was being sarcastic.
She doesn’t want you to ‘teach’ her anything.

I resupplied the NYT link that I posted earlier.

“the Greeks … are of the same culture”

As soon as I saw you reveal your racist stripes, I knew where your ‘lesson’ was going. Your fear about “the EU [not surviving] for long” is misplaced. Europe will do well, no thanks to racists like you.

Most people (Hungarians or otherwise) on this website realize that, contrary to your opinion, they are NOT “lucky with [a] prime minister” who slowly dismantles democracy in Hungary, all in the name of protecting the populace from a nonexistent threat.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Eliezer
Guest

Most people (Hungarians or otherwise) on THIS website realize that,

Yes, on this ultra-“liberal” site- possibly, but other sites and other people exist who may read this site without commenting. What can you add in discussion except labeling me “racist”? You cannot live without the “political correctness” and shutting mouths of your opponents. And you blame others with dismantling democracy!

Member

Oh Elixir, Do not worry, Orban hired his own PR person from Hungarian taxpayers money to spread his lies. (You can read about them on this blog.) Hungarian Spectrum is a little fish on the big pond of lies feed by Viktor Orban. I would argue if this site is ultra-liberal, and if you take you’re time you will see that even the regular contributors of this site do not see eye-to-eye. Now, if you want to read “anti-liberal” articles, you do not need to go far, just visit the official Hungarian media sites. Do you want to go further, just visit Orban’s best buddy’s rants on Magyar Hirlap. I guess Bayer is more up to the alley of illiberal country you are craving for. There is no political correctness, but hate there.

exTor
Guest

Sorry Eliezer [11:37 AM], a truth is a truth, whether you like it or not, whether it hurts you or not. I can further your comment: How does it help by calling me (and others) ultraliberals?

I wear that badge readily. Where I come from –Canada– it is not a dirty word. Actually, I’m further left than that, but that’s between you and me.

Calling you a racist is appropriate. It is neither a lie nor a misjudgement. That descriptor lets people know what you are about. It lets people know how you are likely to argue.

Generally I dont engage racists in conversation, for they are not usually amenable to reasonable discourse. We’ve had our share of trolls here.

The problem in Hungary is that the term ‘liberal’ has been turned upside down (or downside up). It reminds me of the Hungarian use of ‘szia’ and ‘helló’, which here is totally opposite to the way those words are used in the West, where the words originated.

Nobody in Canada or in the States would say ‘helló’ when leaving and ‘szia’ [see you] when arriving. So, Hungarians dont understand those words and Hungarians also dont understand the ‘liberal’ word.

Lies have seeped the brain.
Perceptions are twisted.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Tyrker
Guest

exTor –
You appear to be implying that helló is only used to mean goodbye in Hungary and szia is only used to mean hello. This, however, is not true. Actually, both words can be used to greet people as well as to bid farewell. Also, you are saying that both words originated in the West. This obviously holds true for hello, and I’m sure it must be both amusing and confusing for a North American to hear Hungarians use the word when leaving. Szia, however, does not come from ‘see ya’ even if it sounds similar.

Bowen
Guest

A Hungarian once told me (in total, 100% earnestness) that the word ‘hello’ is a Hungarian invention. It comes from the word “hallod?” and the English language borrowed it.

Tyrker
Guest

Bowen, I think you are confusing things here. Your Hungarian friend must have alluded to “Hallo,” a phrase used when picking up the phone. This does indeed come from Hungarian – Tivadar Puskás, the inventor of the telephone exchange, is alleged to have answered the phone by saying “hallom [Önt],” meaning ‘I hear you.’ It does not have anything to do with ‘hello’ though.

exTor
Guest

You are correct, Tyrker, ‘szia’ and ‘helló’ are used interchangeably, as you stated, however the prime usage in Hungary of those words is as I stated.

I cant count the number of times I’ve received emails from Hungarians where the salutations contain ‘szia’.

The North American variant of ‘hallo’/’hullo’, ‘hello’ was supposedly used by Alexander Graham Bell when he was experimenting with his telephone.

As for ‘szia’ not being etymologically linked to the English ‘see ya’ pronunciation of ‘see you’, I’ll buy an alternate explanation if you can provide a plausible one, Tyrker.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Tyrker
Guest

This may surprise you but ‘szia’ is a derivative of the Latin greeting, ‘servus [humilimus domini].’ There are many other versions in the Hungarian language: servus–>szervusz–>szevasz–>szeasz–>sziasz–>szia, although some of these are no longer in use today.

exTor
Guest

I had heard of the [Latin] ‘servus’/’szervusz’ [Hungarian] connection before, Tyrker. In fact, ‘szevasz’ is my preferred word of greeting because I dont like using ‘szia’ in what I consider the wrong context.

Your postulation is plausible. I know that words mutate over the centuries, however I will only give you credit if you can link to someone else’s sayso, unless you have a raft of degrees after your name.

As I understand it, ‘szervusz’ was imported from German. I’ve only heard ‘szerbusz’ around here [Csepel], which is how I heard it growing up in Canada. I now make sure that I say the vee in ‘szervusz’.

MAGYARKOZÓ

An
Guest

exTor, the link below contains the answer of a Hungarian linguist to the very same question.. According to him “szia” does not come from “see ya” and he thinks that it most likely comes from “szevasz” (servus), though there is no evidence for the interim forms.

http://www.nyest.hu/hirek/tenyleg-angol-szo-a-szia

We could also check it in the Dictionary of Hungarian Etymology but I don’t have access to it right here. I’d bet it links szia to szevasz, though.

webber
Guest

Szervusz is def. a Latin importation, from the centuries when schools (exclusively for Hungarian nobility) were run in Latin. Students would greet each other with “servus” in Latin, and in later life kept the address for old schoolmates – hence it spread.

The same process went on in the Austrian part of the empire.

Guest

@Eliezer
October 31, 2015 at 6:36 pm

If Brussels, and America, are so bad, why doesn’t Orbán simply take Hungary out of the EU, and, for good measure, from NATO, too?

And if Soros is so bad, why doesn’t Orbán simply shut down the Central Europeam University in Budapest, and, for good measure, Corvinus University too.

Looks to me like Orban, as usual, is speaking with a forked tongue, or rather, says opposite things from the two corners of his mouth, and then actually does third and fourth things in the real world of finance and geo-politics, that has little or no relation to what he said from either corner of his mouth.

Just as with his desperate attempts at whitewashing 20th century Hungarian history and antisemitism.

And the opinion leadership among the Hungarian Christian intellectuals, together with the great unwashed of Hungary, happily lap it all up.

Pathetic and contemptible.

Guest

@Eliezer
October 31, 2015 at 6:36 pm

If Brussels is so bad, why doesn’t Orbán simply take Hungary out of the EU? After all, he could, if he really wanted to do so.

If America is so bad, why doesn’t Orbán simply take Hungary out of NATO? After all, he could, if he really wanted to do so.

Is Soros is so bad, why doesn’t Orbán simply shut down the Central European University in Budapest? After all, he could, if he really wanted to do so.

Orbán is all hat, no cattle, as they would say in Texas.

He speaks with a forked tongue, one thing from one corner of his mouth, another from the other corner, and a third, fourth, fifth and n-th thing when it comes to actual action in the real worlds of finance and geo-politics.

Same as his deperate attempts to whitewash 20th century Hungarian history and antisemitism: one day bad, next day good, the day after bad again, the day after that good again.

And it is all happily lapped up by the opinion “leadership” of Hungarian Christian intellectualdom. and of course by the great unwashed in Hungary.

Utterly pathetic and contemptible.

petofi
Guest

@Mike

What I may add, and what is truly the most contemptable, is how easily the so-called intelligentsia (of whatever stripe) quietly accomodate themselves to the immoral, gutter realities of Hungary.

Latefor
Guest

The dream of Hungarian-born billionaire, George Soros (living in the U.S.) is to establish an OPEN SOCIETY in his life time. Victor Orban does NOT want an Open Society. Period.

HMR
Guest

It is not the Soros objective to create one single Open Society for the whole world (or Europe), but to help countries to be ‘open’, in the sense of non-totalitarian, non-authoritarian. There is nothing in this about undermining the separate identity of different societies.

Guest

You forgot to add of course (like your type of people usually do):
Soros is an American Jew born in Hungary …
So you want a closed society too like Orbán and his ilk?
A return to the good old times of feudalism – where everybody knew their place?

Latefor
Guest

Wolfi – and what are my ‘type’ usually like? Soros never ever uses his Jewish heritage to start or defuse an argument. I guess a man of his power doesn’t need to use it for personal attacks. Besides, he’s an atheist. By the looks of it, now it’s down to ‘my type’ and ‘your type’. It never ends. You always shake hands with one hand and hold a rock in the other.

Guest

Just read the comments on other sites like pol.hu – there you’ll find enough supporters of Orbán’s crazy ideas!

If Orbán is so vehement about “Nation States” and “Hungary for Hungarians” then shouldn’t the other governments also think about sending all those darned Hungarians back?
In Western Europe there are more than a million Hungarian economic (im)migrants – if we send them all back to Hungary where they belong (according to Orbán) we would have room and jobs enough for many refugees.
But of course it’s always different with Hungarians – they believe they’re something special …

Especially when I read those comments from you, latefor and some other Hungarians whose parents were lucky enough to escape the horrors I wonder about that …

Member
Is Open Society a bad word in your vocabulary? Just asking. Let me quote here: “Investor and philanthropist George Soros established the Open Society Foundations to help countries make the transition from communism. Our Mission The Open Society Foundations work to build vibrant and tolerant democracies whose governments are accountable and open to the participation of all people.” Is this a bad thing? I understand you prefer the fair Orban society where stadiums are being built by the dozens from taxpayers money, while hospitals are in ruins. You prefer the great state Orban creates where axe murderers are inadvertently lifted into cult status by our forgiving PM, where the inner circle of the PM without any intervention become multimillionaire in a few years. Yes, that is a way better society than a vibrant and tolerant democracy. By the way Hungary’s PM was educated by the Open Society Foundation by Soros… You know the PM? „Disregard what I say” during the campaign, Orbán Viktor said before the 2006 elections, according to 2 diplomatic cables of the American Embassy. According to the documents published by Wikileaks, Orbán referred to the fact that his electoral promises – judged to be „populist” by American… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

To Some1 – If I remember correctly, Hungary was an “Open Society” prior to the Orban Government winning elections. They were “checks and balances” at place. BTW, where were you to defend the previous “Liberal/Socialist” governments? And why do you think the Orban Government won with a 2/3 majority? Some of us “bogatyas” would urgently need some enlightenment.

webber
Guest

Latefor –
Fidesz won two elections under that liberal system, in 1998 and 2010.

N.b. disliking one government doesn’t mean one liked its predecessor.
It’s a jaded Fidesz strategy – whenever someone criticizes their abuses they rail on about previous govts., as if that justified anything. We’ve all heard it before.

Oh, and please drop the “bőgatyás” line. Yes, I understood – you’re implying that someone called you ignorant for supporting Fidesz in 2010. They didn’t.

Everyone here is well aware of why Fidesz won that election. The criticism here is about what it did with its power after that.

webber
Guest

P.S. Latefor come to think of it, under that old electoral system, the left won exactly as many elections as the right did – three each.
R. 1990
L. 1994
R. 1998
L. 2002
L. 2006
R. 2010

So, what was wrong with that?

Those results look like results in most Western countries – sometimes the left wins, sometimes the right. Neither side can stay in power forever with proper checks and balances. Each side can call the other to account.

Latefor
Guest

Webber – Believe it or not, I’ve just read somewhere the following: “The left wing and the right wing is attached to the same bird’. Maybe there is another option: we should seriously consider the bird’s head or its tail.

webber
Guest

??
The current govt. of Hungary considers itself r-wing (did you not know that?)

Latefor
Guest

Yes, I did know. From a distant land, it seems to me that they are also using the bird’s head, not only it’s right wing. 🙂

Guest

You’ve been told several times already that Orbán and his party never got two thirds of the votes – so drop that line please!
Actually, just to remind you, with all the manipulation they managed just around 45% of the votes in 2014 – but their crooked voting laws turned that into a two thirds majority of seats …
PS:
Had to laugh right now when my wife explained the bő-gatya to me … 🙂
My dictionary of Hungarian slang has some other words starting with bög… and bőg…
PPS:
Don’t you even have Hungarian letters on your keyboard, tsk, tsk …

Member

wolfi: But latefor is looking to be enlightened. She said so, so do not mind to explain it to her the myth of the 2/3.

Member
@ bogatyas latefor Well, where were you to fight the communist government before 1989? I was there. Were you? I never seen Orban then, and I never heard his name in the “underground”, and never read any samizdat from him. Oh, pardon me, I knew about him, and in fact I meet him in person (while he was drank). You know at the time he was a young communist…. I had to leave Hungary in 1988, but thank goodness somehow Orban went through all the communist times, and fit in just well without a scratch, and was able to stay in university even at the time when many of my friends were kicked out. Did I like what I have seen after? I was not looking my friend as I had to study English, and had to work 3 jobs in Canada to establish myself, when Orban spent his time in England as the beneficiary of Soros. Maybe Orban did under all the rules what he does best, and told whoever was on power „Disregard what I say”. It was a scam all along but it seems to working for all “bogatyas” with closed minds. I hope this en;tightened you… Read more »
Latefor
Guest

Some1 – May I ask you once again? Why do yo think the Orban Government won two elections?

Member

In 2010, he won because he sabotaged the previous government (2006 riots) and it was a fair and square vote, the next time, he cheated in a way by changing election laws and districts to suit Fidesz win. Simple as that! Next time if he wins, it will because there are still no candidates to defeat him. Truth is, if more people voted in Hungary, his cheating would still not secure him a win. Canada showed that gerrymandering has no effect if the electorate votes in large numbers. That is what needs to happen in Hungary. Harper thought he was a shoe in, but because of that arrogance he lost.

Member

Thank you Liz!

exTor
Guest

This danger so-called from which Orbán is supposedly protecting Hungary is a chimera, a construct of Orbán’s fevered mind, a construct he is attempting to foist onto the public, a construct that he constantly reinforces in his speeches and confrontations.

This danger to Hungary is a fiction. This danger to Christianity is a fiction. Those who buy Orbán’s fever pitch are bereft of intellectual acuity.

Those who viewed the speech may remember Orbán mentioning something about an aspect of the Hungarian character, namely cowardice. Can someone explain this aspect to me? Thanx.

MAGYARKOZÓ

An
Guest

If anybody is interested here is part of the speech that Orban himself (well, his PR people) posted on his Facebook page, subtitled in English.

He is not mincing his words, accusing the leaders of Europe with transporting these people from the Middle East deliberately to change the ethnic composition of nation states in the EU and thus create a cosmopolitan Europe. He talks about conspiracy and treason… very strong words.

http://444.hu/2015/10/30/orban-viktor-tenyleg-rahajtott-a-nemzetkozi-rajonotaborra

tappanch
Guest

The composition of registered migrants in Hungary, January 1 through September 30.

Adult men: 61.97%
Boys under 18: 17.46%

Adult women: 12.11%
Girls under 18: 8.46%

http://www.parlament.hu/irom40/06505/06505-0001.pdf

So the fleeing refugees leave most of their women and daughters behind, exposing them to life danger , don’t they?

tappanch
Guest

UNHCR estimate shows similar numbers about the migrants/refugees arriving in Greece by sea:

Adult men: 62%
Adult women: 14%

Children: 23%

tappanch
Guest

Gallup, 2011:

“About 13% of the world’s adults — or more than 640 million people — say they would like to leave their country permanently.”

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153992/150-million-adults-worldwide-migrate.aspx

webber
Guest

Tappanch – many men leave their mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters in safe refugee camps in Turkey, and take the dangerous trip to Europe alone to find a job and make a place for their families.

That’s the pattern for traditional European families, as well. Dad goes to find a job; the family comes after.

Guest

@tappanch
October 31, 2015 at 8:09 pm

“So the fleeing refugees leave most of their women and daughters behind, exposing them to life danger , don’t they?”

Not really, given that it is inconceivable that any Middle Eastern or Central Asian women or daughters would be left behind unless they were members of extended families or clans who would look after them and protect them while their menfolk claimed asylum in Northern Europe and, subsequently, family reunification rights too, whereby the womenfolk they left behind could join them post-haste in their new country of asylum.

Observer
Guest

The “wisdoms” (bölcsesègek) of this half baked character seem to be more and more pathetic, reminiscent of Cseauscescu. Would be laughable, but for the lemmings eagerly following…. Tragic

Observer
Guest

Dear Ms Balogh, Re. to where this leads – we have arrived: to the pretty obvious fascist state, fig leaves notwithstanding. For the squimish call it ”fascism light”. Although the “maffia state” term is quite descriptive in view of the unprecedented (in Europe) scale of corruption/robbery of the public good (res publicum) committed by this vregime.

Latefor
Guest

With all due respect: If Hungary was a “Mafia state’ – as some of you call the Orban Government – you wouldn’t be belting them so openly on this blog. (They would have silenced you all a long time ago.) Just a thought. Maybe some of you should do some research re: MAFIA before you continue on this line.

Bowen
Guest

I wouldn’t be surprised if Prof. Balogh has received some pretty nasty private correspondence over the years.

I’m aware that even the people behind politics.hu have received death threats (I believe the main editor of that site left Hungary with his family).

And you should see the litany of abuse that the Budapest Beacon gets on any Facebook post they make (again, the person behind the Budapest Beacon, Richard Field, received threats against himself and his family before he decided to leave Hungary.)

Latefor
Guest

. . . And you should see the online threats I’ve received over the years! The last one was some nasty porn when I dared to question something about my published book. . .(Comes with the territory of commenting, I guess.)

webber
Guest

Latefor –
It isn’t just online threats. Some people are fired.
Others, who can’t be fired, can get visits at their homes, or phone calls late at night.

Your comment shows you don’t live in Hungary.

Latefor
Guest

Webber – Is that so? “They can get visits to their homes?” WOW!

webber
Guest

The visits are threatening. You understood that.
Why are you flippant?
Do you risk being fired from your job for expressing your political opinions? Of course not. You don’t live in Hungary.

Observer
Guest

It is pretty nonsensical to ruminate over the definition, but the Orban regime ticks most boxes of organised crime.
The abuses of power and transgression of their own laws committed in the process of robbery go unpunished mainly because a sorry puppet heads the “independent” prosecution office. Some police, local partisans (and recently few judges) help with the whitewash/cover up.
Businesses are pressed for “donations”, taken over under pressure, competition is harassed or crippled by various authorities. Government contracts go exclusively to cronies with kickbacks reaching 45%, overpricing of 30-50% in ALL public construction contracts with EU money, provide fat extra profits, e;g; avr. 29% officially, actually higher.
Media critical of Orban is stifled by withdrawal of state advertising, the largest single source, e.g. Klub Radio – the only critical station left lost ALL 12 frequencies outside Budapest, does not receive gov. advertising and any advertiser there loses gov. advertising as a sanction.
This week a shop owner had his windows smashed and a swastika cut into the counter because her protested against a rude antisemitic joke by a Fidesz guy… and so on and so on…

Fascist light, mafia state, whatever – doesn’t change the facts, just sums them up in a definition.

petofi
Guest

Hi, Latefor (dinner?)

“…you wouldn’t be belting them so openly…”

Actually, Mss L, what Orban’s tolerance really means is that the country is so thoroughly tied up and dominated by his minions that he can easily play-act some ‘tolerance’. Part of the Romaic ‘Pava Tanc’, don’t you know.

Member

Organized crime doesn’t always mean people being wacked. Especially since the mafia fell hard in the 90’s. Now it is largely commercial crime, drug trafficking and the use of gangs. People still get killed, but everyone knows that killing people gets you caught. Even Orban knows he cannot “silence” the whole world, just his world and within the borders of his country. He does behave as though he is a Don, and the Don never does the killing himself, he gets his associates and made men to do it. He still resonates mafia, with the corruption and stealing especially if you have ever followed how his best friend behaves.

Latefor
Guest

Lis,
His best friends behave exactly the same way as other powerful men behave in the United States or Germany or France. It will be fascinating to witness the next Federal Election in Hungary. The way some of you working against Orban on this blog, he might have to pre-book Leonard Cohen to sing “Everybody knows”. Let’s wait and see what he will do next. Orban cannot be intimidated easily. He’s smart lawyer who also understands the power of U.S. Lobbyists and how they operate. (Don’t forget: George Soros was his mentor!)

webber
Guest

Latefor- “the next Federal Election in Hungary” ???
NOW what are you gibbering about? There ARE no federal elections in Hungary and never have been.
Orban never practiced as a lawyer, so how do you know he’s a good one?
Do you have even the slightest clue what you are talking about? The only thing that is clear is that you adore Orban – but you don’t seem to know a thing about him. What is it you like? The cut of his suits?

Latefor
Guest

Webber – OK. . . OK . . make it ‘National Election’
(I’m observant but still have my blind spot.)

Latefor
Guest

Webber – -You are using the “attack dog” tactic again! OPENLY humiliate those who dare to speak fearlessly. Some of you on this blog want to change the culture of Hungary. You want to ensure that only your values are heard, distroying everyone who dares to question your blistering attacks, you like to tarnish the credibility of anyone who has alternative views. As the saying goes: “Do not ever debate with ultra-Liberals.” Let the reader be the judge!

webber
Guest

Latefor:
Defending power – in this case the Hungarian govt. – is not fearless. It’s not even slightly brave. It’s certainly not avant garde. It’s not even cliché, though some of the things people say to defend it are. It’s simply in bad taste to suck up to power.

Pointing out (multiple) mistakes and correcting them is not “attacking.”

I’m still waiting to hear what you like about Orban. Is it his power that you find attractive?

P.S. You haven’t even come close to identifying my political leanings.

Eliezer
Guest
webber November 3, 2015 at 2:34 am What is it you like? The cut of his [Orban’s} suits? I like his courageous immigration policy. It seems he is not afraid to stand alone when he feels to be right, and I think he is right now. If he is bad in all other relations, you will have a chance to tell it him at the next election. You do not think that elections in Hungary are falsified? Havelaar November 1, 2015 at 12:16 pm It is very well possible Orban, et al, get what they are working on, the collapse of the EU… >apparently, no one really believes that this danger really exists, because in many capitals, the >rulers behave like children playing with fire. A possible collapse of the EU may come as a result of very poor performance of the brilliant idea of the European unity. It is a victim of its too rapid expansion, too rapid absorption of countries with very unequal economy and national habits, with the veto power even for a smallest country, and of creation of a single currency for those uneven countries; of too powerful and centralized Brussels bureaucracy. Its present policy towards… Read more »
webber
Guest

To each his own.

Certainly Orban won the 2010 elections, with an amazing result that was not in the least faked. Nobody can doubt that victory. It was clear and complete.

The 2014 elections are a little strange – those pesky votes from SOME Hungarians outside Hungary (but not from others – “problems” in registration), láncszavazás (solely for Fidesz) in many villages, the bizarre results in certain districts of Budapest (in one I know rather well, Fidesz bused in a lot of “foreign” voters – but still lost the district), I could go on, but I am sure you know it all.

Since then, has Fidesz won any mid-term elections? I know the party has lost a lot. Can’t recall any it has won.

Collapse of the EU:
don’t hold your breath. It’s a matter of the heart. If people don’t want it, of course it will fail. But as far as I can see, too many Western Europeans are too fond of it for it to collapse. Certain countries might leave, and of course it will change (everything lasting does), but I’d be willing to bet that the EU will be around in a decade.

Eliezer
Guest

but I’d be willing to bet that the EU will be around in a decade.

I’d prefer you to be right. But it certainly needs a reform with some more independence, economical and political, returned to the member states. Also, economically weaker countries should be probably allowed to return to their national currency that they can devalue (like drachma for Greece). You also have not yet rid of forint, right?

webber
Guest
The only problem with the drachma is that even Greeks don’t want it. They don’t trust it. They prefer Euros. Fears that their money would be turned into drachmas helped create runs on Greek banks. Plenty of EU countries have kept their currency, though: Denmark, Sweden, and Britain for instance. If Hungarians prefer forints, they should keep forints. But many I know seem to prefer getting their salary in euros – half a million, according to some estimates… (not counting ethnic Hungarians living in Slovakia and Slovenia). Some nice EU countries are out of Schengen – Britain, for instance. Reform – hard to say which way it will go. Integration could be increased, or decreased. Schengen will be reformed, certainly. Rules governing the Euro will surely change. A country might be expelled or voluntarily leave some day – from Schengen, or from the Euro, or from the EU as a whole. But I bet the EU will exist for those core countries to which it matters – or rather, to whose citizens it matters. Lots of Europeans like to say “this is the end” of this or that. Spenglerians. People waiting for apocalypse. Others are more practical, and just think… Read more »
Guest

Some people want a return to the good old times of nation States – like Eliezer. But the core of the EU States doesn’t want that – we want more unity!
So let Orbán etc leave the EU – but of course they don’t want to be cut off from the money flowing in from Brussels (or rather from Germany etc …).
If the Balkan (including Hungary and maybe Poland) really doesn’t want more integration – then good riddance!
It wouldn’t be bad for our economy in the EU, on the contrary – we can do enough business with the upcoming countries in Asia …
Did you know that VW sells as many cars in Asia as in Europe?

webber
Guest

Frankly, a lot of people in the West on the right (esp. some I’ve met in Britain) are delighted with democratic failures in E. European countries. They go wild over Hungary these days. They smugly say “we always knew… they are like that. They can’t help it… it was a mistake to let them in the EU… We always said so… ”

What these r-wing Westerners don’t say, but what is implicit, is that they view E. Europeans as culturally inferior and incapable of democracy. They are delighted that Hungarians are (in their view) proving their prejudices.

R-wing Hungarians sometimes mistake this for sympathy. It is not. It’s delight in the confirmation of prejudice – “coo, coo, yes you are like that aren’t you? We understand you perfectly… Do have some more wine. Orban’s hard hand is the best for you, isn’t it? coo, coo… you belong with Russia… or under your OWN dictator… You always did… we knew that… and (never spoken) no you won’t be dating my daughter or son. S/he knows you are inferior.”

exTor
Guest
MAFFIAÁLLAM Welcome back, Latefor. Happy New Month. Hadn’t heard from you in a while. I was going to ask Mike Balint (who is your neighbor, so to speak) to cohere a party to search for you. While threats to one’s safety are not to be taken lightly, it would be difficult to take out a tenacious lady living in New England. As for shutting down pesky antiOrbán websites, that would be too obvious and Orbie dont need that kinda trouble. He’s not that desperate, not yet. Besides, Hungarian Spectrum is an English-language forum without much circulation in Hungarian. That fact NWS, some influential people do read this, far more than suggested by today’s 1906 official subscribers. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the US embassy in Budapest tunes in on a regular basis. The perception of Hungary as a Mafia State exists outside this website. Indeed, it was from the outside that the Mafia State term was given an HS home because it is appropriate (or believed to be appropriate). I dont doubt that a lot of money gets siphoned into a lot of Hungarian pockets. That is a real public perception. My question: How do we know? Where… Read more »
Observer
Guest

Re proof see my comment above.
Read Jozsef Debreceni’s “Fidesz rabló gazdasága”.
Read re Simicska dividents 2009-2014 = 50 billion Ft. plus, his companies’ profit rate of 29% average.
Read about Lörinc Mészaros, Orban’s village neighbour making the 100 riches list from nothing within 5 years all on gov. contracts.
Read about Orban’s son in law’s company going from 7 mil. turnover to 1 600 million all gov. and local gov. contacts.
etc
etc.
There is NO public procurement contract without political corruption, but exceptional few either with very technical niches or involving big multinationals (e.g. weapons systems, pharmaceuticals).
I suppose some foreign governments know more about Orban’s Swiss accounts or dealings.

webber
Guest

and read about what happened to a certain shepherd who crossed Meszaros.
He wasn’t the only victim, he’s just the one who got some press.
Then there has been the creative use of tax authorities to demolish certain businesses – visits from them every single week, until the business goes under.

Latefor
Guest

Thank you, Extor. I’m still around!

Yaok Mo Ftre
Guest
Look, politicians create grand narratives. They know that narratives are fundamental to human cognition, to make sense (any sense) of the complex world. This is 101 in cognitive science/psychology. The left-wing or the democratic opposition have no choice but to provide a competing and – if it ever hoped to influence politics – equally easy to understand and compelling narrative. Alas, the left-wing is inhibited, divided and – which is the worse – completely empty intellectually. They can’t provide sh*t. At most, they argue policy implications of policy implications of policy implications to death as if anybody would give sht. Orban is just testing his ideas and what gets the most nods from his rural fans will be in his big speech, oh no, at the political event of the year, OMG (he is pretty good at creating apprehension to a damn political speech of which he gave thousands) – after which speech there will be a lot of inane talk about his speech instead of his corruption, incompetence, Hungary’s lagging behind Romania, immigration from Hungary by the hundreds of thousands etc. Somehow I’m reminded by the great movie Adaptation in which the character played by Nicholas Cage (playing a… Read more »
exTor
Guest

Yah okay Magyarország Forintre. Cool moniker, dude.

Not much argument re the leftwing in Hungary.

Orbán is NOT “testing his ideas”, he is justifying them to the populace and to the outside world. Most things that he wants to do have been done.

As for hereafter, what needs doing (from the perspective of Viktor Orbán) is the legal finetuning that will further solidify the now-emplaced laws, which will be difficult to dismantle once Fidesz loozes power.

Nicolas Cage = limitless selfdoubt = Magyarország baloldal

I like the linkage YMF. And I like the NC snippet. Too bad that I didn’t see the original movie [Adaptation]. This is coming from someone who has a quarter-finished screenplay that has sat on the shelf for two decades.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member
exTor
Guest

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/world/europe/german-village-of-102-braces-for-750-asylum-seekers.html

This is a New York Times piece about a German village, the population of which will increase sevenfold by the mandated arrival of refugees.

The article details the interplay of various ideologies within the original population of the village, which is on the former East German border.

Interestingly, the local neonazi has not (yet) gotten much traction, however that may change as more and more placements are located in the village.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member
About James Traub’s timely but disappointing article on Orban in Foreign (not my words but I agree completely): “Traub seems to be preoccupied with “liberal” vs “right wing” categories while missing the vast bulk of Orban’s wrongdoings, which do, indeed, resemble Putin’s, though perhaps not on a comparable scale. Traub seems about as off base in his understanding of the situation in Hungary as the left wing liberals had been at the height of the Stalinist regime, when they managed to ignore the slaughter and abuses in the Soviet Union . “Traub is staring at the destruction of the foundations of democracy, massive appropriation, by friends and supporters of Orban, of state resources for their own enrichment, the gerrymandering of state laws to create private monopolies, to the benefit of his cronies and party supporters, the undermining of the judicial system, the electoral system and the constitution, the appropriation or banning of almost all means for opposition movements to be able to be heard, or to communicate with the public, the encouragement of racial hatreds, anti-western, anti-democratic views, prejudices and xenophobia as a distraction from the ongoing ruin and pillaging of the economy, using the age-old “unifying” devices of demagogues:… Read more »
Member

link correction for the Traub article, which is the 5th in a series of 5: https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/31/the-regression-of-viktor-orban-hungary-europe/

exTor
Guest

Why would you provide lengthy quotes
without attribution or linkage, Stevan?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member

Afterthought, upon re-reading all 5 articles in the series: Traub does touch on most of Orban’s outrages. What is disappointing is that the overall tone of Traub’s timely overview seems more bemused than outraged: I think history will show — and perhaps sooner rather than later — that there is indeed cause for alarm as well as concerted action on the part of the democratic world to prevent metastasis. There are many options: media and financial support for the democratic opposition, freezing of EU subsidies, steps toward invoking EU article 7, economic sanctions, and many other creative steps so that Orban cannot continue his vile machinations with complete impunity, as now, and even with financial help from the democracies he is maligning.

Member

@exTor No attribution because the author sent it to me as a personal communication, without giving me permission to cite his or her name. As they are not my words, I did not want to claim them as my own, just to express full agreement with them.

exTor
Guest

Fine. Acceptable, but you should’ve
explained yourself from the getgo.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Observer
Guest

Spot on, these comments are one of the best worded opinion re the pussy footing around this tacky budding dictator. Can you please provide the whole text if there is more to it?

Member

Sorry @Observer, I cannot post the author’s name without permission. But the name would not have added to the substance — and that is the whole text, omitting identity indicators.

Observer
Guest

Sure. Thanks.

Guest

Re: the ‘Catholicism’ existing in Magyarorszag

This is not the Catholicism of Aquinas where the route is to find God, to be ‘holy’ and to accept a ‘vocation’ within the global community. It would appear the Magyar route is now sowed with weeds of irritability, distrust, hate and intemperance by those who think they know ‘the way, the truth and the life’.

This is a religion unmoored from its avowed goals of understanding the ‘word of God’. It unfortunately has been subtly captured by the state in its quest to ‘get things done right’. We see then that ‘religious’ instruction is like simply cooking a piece of paprikas csirke. Just incomprehensible how such deep ‘Catholic’ apparently passionate attitudes can be vilely directed to communities of people. The religion as practiced ‘does not compute’. Rather than of ‘inclusion’ we see more ‘exclusion’ running through its theo-statist program.

Istvan
Guest

I suspect that PM Orban’s obsessive comments relating to Soros are due in part to the fact that Soros organization funded some of Orban’s education. Soros and his contacts also gave Orban some early credibility as an anti-communist liberal. Orban is no doubt afraid of being targeted as having been created by a liberal Jew, so he strikes out with a vengeance.

Havelaar
Guest
It is very well possible Orban, et al, get what they are working on, the collapse of the EU. Of course, Hungary has to give up the billions in structural aid from the EU budget from that moment = the end of the Fidesz regime. So strange the right wing extremists missed this. We Germans, Dutch, Beligians etc. will do fine. The Hungarians will really suffer though. But maybe the Fidesz regime still does not care….full speed ahead driving into A DEAD END STREET. Very good article: http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-europe-rises-and-falls-with-merkel/a-18819416 Everything that needs to be said about Hungary’s would-be dictator Viktor Orban has been said – with his barbed-wire fences and guard dogs, he now serves as a model for populists – and not only in Bavaria. Czechs and Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians – wherever you look, hardly anyone wants to take responsibility for the number of refugees that would be assigned to their country in a fair European distribution. No one seems to think about what the collapse of the EU would mean for each of these countries: What an economic disaster, what a fall in the international importance of Danes and Poles, Italians and also Britons, if they laid bombs… Read more »
Neeww
Guest

if you read Hungarian this is a great article on the topic, very funny, by Péter Uj (the former editor in chief of index.hu and the current one of 444.hu).

http://nol.hu/velemeny/te-csak-haldokolj-boldog-europa-1563389

Istvan
Guest

The comments posted in relation the article Havelaar posted on the DW site are scathing towards Merkel. She has fewer and fewer supporters in her own party. It’s amazing she hasn’t backed off in the least really even with decline in popularity in her own party.

webber
Guest

Istvan, if you think comments posted online accurately reflect public opinion, you are sadly mistaken.

tappanch
Guest

The future has already been written:

“Two children aged 12 and 13 have been arrested on charges of “insulting the president” after allegedly tearing down posters showing a photo of President …an.

The two cousins […] now each face up to two years and four months in prison, upon approval of the case by the Justice Ministry.”

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two-children-face-two-years-in-jail-for-tearing-down-erdogan-poster.aspx

tappanch
Guest

UNHCR counted 601,079 migrants/refugees, who arrived on one of the Greek islands in the first 10 months of 2015.

While the first 8 months added up to 39% of the arrivals, an amazing 61% of them landed in just two months, in September and October.

I think the successful dumping of some of the migrants and refugees into Europe and the subsequent promise of German aid to Turkey contributed to the 49.0% [cf 40.9% in the June election] Erdogan victory.

tappanch
Guest

Let me put it this way. Between the two Turkish elections on June 7 and November 1 (more precisely in the five months between June 1 and October 31) 92.7% of the migrants/refugees arrived from Turkey to Greece, while only 7.3% in the preceding five months (between January 1 and May 31)

petofi
Guest

Freudian Slip that conspiracy accusation…

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[…] speech to The Association of Christian Intelligentsia in Budapest on Friday, October 29, 2015, Hungarian Spectrum blogger Eva Balogh was somewhat dismissive of […]

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[…] perinteistä tulkintaa, samoilla linjoilla, joita hieman peitellymmin on viimeperjantaisessa puheessaan esitellyt Unkarin pääministeri Orbán. Pakolaiskriisi ei ole (vain) sodan ja taitamattoman […]

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[…] most recently accentuated by the comments of Prime Minister Orban in his recent speech on “Signs of the Times” and in a recent radio address. At best, human rights activism is regarded as naïve; at […]

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