Hungary is preparing for a possible terrorist attack

Naturally today’s topic must be the horrific terrorist attack carried out at three locations in Paris, which so far have resulted in 129 dead and 350 injured. We still know few of the details, but according to the latest intelligence the attack was carried out by three teams of terrorists. One team may have included a man with a Syrian passport who arrived in Greece in early October. His identity should be easy to ascertain since, according the Greek minister of interior, local authorities fingerprinted him on the island of Leros. Evidence indicates that among the accomplices there might be some men in Brussels. And the German police are investigating the case of a man who was arrested last week with weapons in his car and his GPS set for Paris. (Modern technology can be dangerous.)

President François Hollande declared three days of official mourning. The flags of the European Union will be lowered and black flags will fly next to them. High officials of countries from all over the world sent condolences to President Hollande.

France is in a state of emergency, and military troops are patrolling the capital. This is understandable since the French government considers the assault on its citizens “an act of war.” The attack is most likely a response to France’s military involvement against ISIS and other terrorist groups in Africa.

What is less understandable is the Hungarian government’s reaction to what happened 1,500 km away. The Orbán government is acting as if the terrorist attack occurred in Budapest. Just like in Paris, soldiers were ordered into the capital where they are patrolling downtown streets with machine guns at the ready. At the government’s prodding the Hungarian Football Association tried to cancel the Norwegian-Hungarian match in Budapest tomorrow, but FIFA vetoed the idea, claiming that the crowded schedule would make rescheduling the game very difficult. Thus, the game is being held, but extraordinary precautions will be taken. Tickets will be checked against IDs, and packages will be opened and inspected.

Heavily armed Hungarian soldiers patrolling the streets of Budapest

Heavily armed Hungarian soldiers patrolling the streets of Budapest

It may not have been possible to cancel the soccer match, but Fidesz postponed its congress originally scheduled for tomorrow because the government declared a day of national mourning. I checked whether any other country declared an official day of mourning for the French victims but didn’t find any that followed Hungary’s example. Which suggests that Viktor Orbán is making as much political hay out of the tragedy in Paris as he possibly can. Not that the Hungarian public needs more incitement against the refugees. At the same time, Orbán had to admit that there is no data suggesting any direct threat to Hungary.

Condolences were offered by Viktor Orbán, President János Áder, Fidesz, and the Christian Democratic Party. They all assured the French people of their sympathy. Among the opposition parties two responses were less boilerplate: Jobbik’s and DK’s. Gábor Vona, chairman of Jobbik, felt it important to add to his soothing words that “what happened is what we have been afraid of.” At the other end of the political spectrum was Ferenc Gyurcsány, chairman of DK, who told his followers that “it is almost impossible not to respond to such hatred with hatred. Yet we must attempt to maintain our humanity.”

The Hungarian government hasn’t yet begun blaming European politicians for the terrorist attack, but I suspect that it will soon. For the time being only a pro-government national security expert and former intelligence man considers the attack “the responsibility of the politicians of the European Union.” But even on the right there are some sane voices. For example, György Pápay in Magyar Nemzet warned readers not to fall for either of two extreme positions: to accept all newcomers or to turn inward and exclude everybody. The golden mean must be found. “We can only hope that what happened in Paris will make the leaders of the continent realize that Europe must show unity.” This sounds like a call for Viktor Orbán to stop his destructive activities and to help solve the problems facing the European Union. Unfortunately, I have little hope that Pápay’s wish will be fulfilled any time soon. I suspect that the tragedy in Paris will only fortify Orbán’s conviction that his strategy is the correct one.

Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Eliezer
Guest

The Orbán government is acting as if the terrorist attack occurred in Budapest.

I think that this goverment will win the next election by landslide. This is the only way to act.

Hlestakov
Guest
The elections will be held in 2018 (unless Orban doesn’t change his mind). The problem for Orban is that there are few Arab looking people in Hungary, so people forget these events pretty soon. In fact a lot of people already forgot about the refugee crises at Keleti Station and other tumultous events. This massacre came as a godsent for Orban (and Putin) and for the right-wing. In fact no other politician I know is so lucky: energy prices are down, interest rates are down globally, Orban can blame the terrorists and immigrations and the EU (during which the EU is paying billions into his personal pockets). That said to maintain this level of terror fear will not be so easy in Hungary. Bush Jr. was successful in that but Europe is different. Unless Orban does something like Putin did (aka The Russian apartment bombings which was a documented case of inside job that also cost – among others – Politkovskaya’s life), which I guess is not out of the question (there was a still-unsolved series of bombings at the homes of fideszniks back in the 1990’s and I guess those were also pro-Fidesz inside jobs) this is no slam… Read more »
Member

As my “better half” stated: “Last night’s tragedy will not only celebrated by the ISIS but by the extreme right, and by the nationalists. Unfortunately the real refugees are expletive word now.”

It is very true. Orban is taking full advantage of the situation, and so is Vona. Two very unlikable characters.

Observer
Guest

The timing can’t be worse, in the middle of the refugee debate.
We can explain open mindedness, equality, freedom of religion, etc. but guess what would be everyone’s first thoughts when facing a dour faced Arab or other darker skin man with a backpack or bulky coat.
This is the instant psychological reaction conditioned by such news.

Score: Extremists 3 : Democrats 0 in this match.

LwiiH
Guest

The timing is actually perfect though I’m not sure it was planned this way. To strike out in an EU capital and have the EU react negativity against the refugees would be a perfect out come for ISIS. It would give them many ore radicalized recruits who came to the west, were treated like animals and then sent back or held back.

Member

The viktor is using the paris attack spread the police and military presence around the entire country. Hungary is now a 100% Police State.
It is also a good exercise to mobilize the forces, which may be need to be done, when the Hungarian people want to kick the Fidesz/KDNP/Jobbik Mafia hoodlums masquerading as a government to Kingdom come.

Eliezer
Guest

Hungary is now a 100% Police State.

Are the army and the police arresting people, and they disappear without trial?
Has the author ever lived in the police state as Hungary used to be? or the Soviet Union?

Member

@Eliezer: I wish there would be a Disike button. Your logic is so sad.

Guest

Many law-abiding political activists in Hungary, and their families, have received death threats. This says a great deal about the government which you support or are a member of.

I myself have been threatened with a beating by “respectable” Fidesz activists, if I continued to protest against the government, instead of showing gratitude to them, that I am able to protest in the first place.

The only thing I have to be grateful for is that Hungary is still within the EU, because it is only due to that, that people are not yet forcefully and physically taken off the streets.

Orbán stops short of murdering opposition only because it would mean expulsion from the EU, and the loss of his main source of private income.

Member

Very reminiscent to the time I was a young student in Hungary in the 80s. At the time Orban and his friend lived their great life at Bibo College, and attended university, some of them working for the “communist government”, some of them served them as party functionaries. I for one was threatened, kicked of from my job, told that I will not be returning to university, etc. So those times are returning, and only the people form Bibo College took the place on the top this time. It is interesting to see that they have a nice group of supporters who try to sell (just like under the communists) the nation that in fact the current government is composed of the good guys, and anyone who does not like them are the bad ones.

exTor
Guest

I dont doubt that there exist various forms of threats leveled at those who are antiOrbán. Is it your opinion, M2L, that threats against you were extracurricular? In other words, did the threats come from Fidesz supporters who acted on their own, or was there implicit encouragement from Fidesz? What were you threatened with? Beatings? Where did this occur? Inside or in public?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Member

@gybognarjr: I wish there would be a Like button. You are so right. It is the perfect exercises to tiny Victor.

D7 Democrat (@D7Democrat)
Guest

Orbán and his fellow neo-nazi scum throughout Europe will rejoice in the death of the innocents in Paris. Why? Because it confirms his world-view, Europe can not cope with diversity. The deaths of the innocents in Paris is a terrorist crime against humanity- it is not the latest battle between cultures or religions no matter how much. Orban and his fascist filth would wish that to be the case. Those who murdered in Paris without compasion or human empathy are singing from exactly the same hymn sheet as the Fidesz fascists.

WE ARE EUROPE.
LONG LIVE LIBERTY.
NO SURRENDER TO THE 2015 NAZIS.

tappanch
Guest

At this point, we should emphasize that perhaps 99%+ of the 2015 migrants/refugees to Europe flee Islam(ists), the civil wars or just want to live a better life.

But, say 0.5% is still 4 thousand people, who slipped in and might have been trained to terrorize Europe.

Reality Check
Guest

0.5%? You are making this up? What do you base this on? There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and approximately 31,000 ISIS fighters. So, wouldn’t a much lower estimate, several orders of magnitude smaller, be closer to the truth?

If it is 4000, why were none of them detected? The odds of that seem very slim. Maybe a few dozen could slip through on the refugee route, but 4000?

4000 is also about 13% of their fighters. Would they risk that large a part of their force along the refugee route?

Paul
Guest

Well said. It has been a great sadness to me that tappanch, one of the most useful and respected contributors to this forum, has recently revealed himself to be such an unthinking racist.

tappanch
Guest

@Paul

Was anti-Nazism an anti-German prejudice?

How can you call me racist? Islam is not a race !!

petofi
Guest

@ Paul

Shame on you and the rest of the half-wits who fling the racist epithet around like pizza dough. Someone who doesn’t agree with you is not necessarily a ‘racist’. Tappanch is certainly not. If you did 10% of the research that Tappanch does–and do some thinking about it–you’d be much better off.

tappanch
Guest

@Reality Check

Of course, I made it up, since the Da’esh leadership failed to share their plans with me .

But it is not just Da’esh, but it is also Qa’ida, Nusra, and hundreds of other groups that want to fulfill the vision of the Quran.about forcing the entire world into submission to accept a theocracy and dictatorship.

Reality Check
Guest

You made a mistake there. Since the facts are that Muslims do not have a universal interpretation of the Quran.

“That want to fulfill the vision of the Quran.about forcing the entire world into submission….”

Should have been: That want to fulfill THEIR vision of the Quran.about forcing the entire world into submission….

petofi
Guest

Reality Check

Forget the numbers. All it takes is one man with a suitcase bomb…

Reality Check
Guest

Yes of course. But let us not confound the refugee issue with that of terrorists.

LwiiH
Guest

These people did not come from this 0.5%, they were already here for some time or there were returnees. They believe 1 of the 8 came in with the refugee flow. No way he was carrying weapons with him

Reality Check
Guest

Could be a psyops by terrorists. So we need more info before we can say with any greater confidence that any of the terrorists were refugees.

Minusio
Guest

After the last elections, I predicted in Pusztaranger that the next step in Orbánistan would be more violence. Until then that was missing in Orbán’s nazi scenario. Once you have riot police in the streets – and even soldiers – you are on that slippery slope. Soon Orbán will walk over corpses. Believe me.

Eliezer
Guest

Soon Orbán will walk over corpses. Believe me.

Any good reason to believe to this unlikely event? Has the author been known as a succesful “cassandra” in the past?

tappanch
Guest

Chameleon Orban would convert to Islam if Da’esh seemed strong enough and they promised to leave him as sub-caliph of Vilayah Majaristan .

exTor
Guest

I have somewhat emerged from my dysic daze.

I’m not cynical enough to believe that Viktor Orbán’s expression of national condolences to France is merely crocodile tears.

I am, however, savvy enough to know that Orbán is savvy enough to use this act of terrorism for his political gain.

The ‘tightening of security’ in Hungary is merely a show. Hungary is in no one’s crosshairs. It looks good to have soldiers walking around Budapest tourist areas that no one is going to target. Soldiers, even if they had been stationed in Paris, could have done nothing.

The reality is that terrorism is mostly unstoppable.

Talking tough may fool the Eliezers of this world, but it wont do anything except get rightwing governments elected, governments that ultimately wont be able to do anything against terrorism.

The Fidesz government has already chipped away at Hungarian liberties, however the Eliezers of Hungary see no problem –yet– because Hungary is not a police state.

Budapest, Hungary is no more likely to experience an act of terrorism than is Reykjavik, Iceland.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Eliezer
Guest

government has already chipped away at Hungarian liberties, however the Eliezers of Hungary see no problem –yet– because Hungary is not a police state.

Is not it a good reason to see “no problem” if you admit that you live not in a police state? Can “not a police state” really take away the liberties?

Budapest, Hungary is no more likely to experience an act of terrorism than is Reykjavik, Iceland.

I think on March 19, 1944, there were people in Hungary that said Hungary had the same chance being occupied by the Germans as Reykjavik had.

webber
Guest

“I think on March 19, 1944, there were people in Hungary that said Hungary had the same chance being occupied by the Germans as Reykjavik had.”

Eliezer, you are quite wrong. From the moment of Anschluss a lot of Hungarians, including people in government, feared Hungary would be occupied. This fear only increased after Germany and the Soviet Union’s joint invasion of Poland. It just grew as Germany overran more and more countries. It was especially severe on Germany’s attack on Yugoslavia (through Hungary). And the fear that Hungary would be occupied if it did not do EVERYTHING Germany asked never went away.
There were also, however, not a few Hungarians who HOPED Germany would occupy Hungary – as many documents and diaries demonstrate – and these were not just Arrow-Cross people.

Tyrker
Guest

“Budapest, Hungary is no more likely to experience an act of terrorism than is Reykjavik, Iceland.”

Europe’s biggest synagogue is located in Budapest. That alone makes the city a prime target for jihadists.

Bowen
Guest

Probably not.

What Daesh (IS) wants is the the erasure of peaceful coexistence between Islam and the West. They’ve written on it extensively, calling it the ‘extinction of the grey zone’.

In certain ways, people like Orban are doing precisely what Daesh wants.

Guest

Fun fact:
The synagogue was built between 1854 and 1859 in the Moorish Revival style, with the decoration based chiefly on Islamic models from North Africa and medieval Spain (the Alhambra). The synagogue’s Viennese architect, Ludwig Förster, believed that no distinctively Jewish architecture could be identified, and thus chose “architectural forms that have been used by oriental ethnic groups that are related to the Israelite people, and in particular the Arabs”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doh%C3%A1ny_Street_Synagogue

Tyrker
Guest

wolfi – I’m afraid that fun fact alone wouldn’t stop an Arab jihadist from trying to blow it up if he were to receive such an order.

Piedone
Guest

Good for Hungary, at least they are taking preventative measures and not stand around with their dicks in their hands.

Paul
Guest

Just how much difference do you think French soldiers on the streets of Paris would have made to yesterday’s events?

Guest

Piedone is most likely one of the Fidesz government’s own members, since his turn of phrase is typical of their manner and mentality. It is in fact one of the main reasons I have become involved in politics in Hungary, after my shock at observing the behaviour of Fidesz supporters.

LwiiH
Guest

Initially, none, but it would have been more quickly contained. The bigger question is; do you want to have the military deployed just in case? Do you want everyone’s phone calls monitored, just in case? Are you not asking for something worse than what everyone was shouting about when Snowden revealed what the NSA was up to?

Member

Tell me when was the last time when anyone threatened Hungary. Nice language by the way! No wonder about he depth of your comment when you likely come up with in the bathroom wondering…

Eliezer
Guest

You wrote you’d like to have a “dislike” button because my comment is “sad”. Believe me, I’d myself would ” dislike” my comments if with such a simple thing – pressing the button – we could remedy the sad situation. But we need much more – resistance to terror.

Hlestakov
Guest

Why oh why would anybody attack Hungary? What would be the purpose? What could the terrorists hope to attain by killing Hungarians?

Hungary is a totally incosequential country on the world stage, we have no army to speak of and so on.

There hasn’t been any attacks in Norway (except for the home-grown white suprematist), Poland, Portugal, Belgium, Austria, Brazil, Mexico etc. – why is it that Arabic terrorists always attack countries which bomb Arabs?

Unless Orban executes – with his Russian friends, because locals would be unable to pull it off (remember the “dog trainer policemen” secret agents who were kidnapped in Syria at the start of the Arab Spring, and had to be bailed out by I guess Russians) – an inside job, there’s no risk.

Stop the fear-mongering here, there will be enough of you in the state media.

Guest

Thank you, Hlestakov, for your clear words!

It’s nice to have a fresh and normal “face” here!
So we are not just a small irrelevant group as the Fidesznisks make it …

spectator
Guest

“Good for Hungary, at least they are taking preventative measures and not stand around with their dicks in their hands.”

Indeed, dear, you’re so right!
Actually that is someone else’s dick in their hand and vigorously beating the nettle with it..!
It’s an old Hungarian virtue what Orbán managed to reintroduce and lift to the “NATIONAL” level, calling it “diplomacy”.

Keeping traditions, you see!

tappanch
Guest

There are places in Hungary that an Islamist would love to blow up. But I am not crazy to give ideas, some of them might read this blog.

Member

Our #tappanch of old, the data-wizard and standard-bearer of factuality and objectivity is gone. Maybe the bigotry and pettiness is in the drinking water. Nobody — not even you — can undo what you did while you were still your old self. R.I.P.

LwiiH
Guest

tappanch has only given us the numbers which he is right about. We can argue is the number is 0.5%, 0.1% or 0.001%. It seems highly unlikely that this number is 0%.

Could that happen in Hungary, sure why not but the odds of any islamic terrorist hitting anything in Hungary has got to be ridiculously close to 0.

tappanch
Guest

Dear Stevan,
I think it was who Paul called me racist, although Islam is not a race, you call me a bigot, although I did read the Quran and its Islamist interpretation – I base my opinion on facts, not prejudice! Please, stop being in a state of denial.
I wish the French secret service had read the Quran too in order to prevent the attack on the first day of the second month, which was on November 13 in 2015.

Orban uses the events to solidify his dictatorship, of course. Hungary is also insignificant in the Islamic conquest plans, but it does have targets of symbolic value, but I am not willing to write more in public.

petofi
Guest

Tappanch,

You make eminent good sense to me. (But I have been labeled a ‘racist’ by the caterpillar brigade, too.)

I sense imminent danger as well from this onrush of Islamists.
Who, pray tell, designated Europe as the landing spot for these people? Why has there been no push to set up registration stations in Greece and Turkey beforehand? By their suspicious silence in all this, I smell a rat in the US–me, who is/was/is the greatest defender of all things American. I’m not sure what’s going on, but the lack of involvement of the US and the UN is deafening by its silence.

tappanch
Guest

My translation of what you claim is this:

” Houston, we have a problem – KHALIFA and POTUS are the same “.

This is not proven, and may be also be false. But POTUS told journalist St… Poulos that Isis shrank a few hours before Isis struck. This shows some incompetence, am I wrong?

webber
Guest

tappanch – Yesterday it was Istvan who had all sorts of “good advice” for the French military, now it is you who have advice for the French secret services.
For your information, they are quite well acquainted with Islamist ideology, their experts HAVE read the Koran, indeed some French secret service people are Muslims.
That they did not catch these particular terrorists is a shame, but not surprising. The French secret services have been warning that attacks are coming and that they cannot possibly prevent them all.

This arm-chair quarterbacking is really, really out of place.

webber
Guest

According to WSJ, Two of the attackers tried to get into the football match but were stopped by security who frisk people before they enter stadiums. They detonated their vests but killed nobody but themselves. A third, who was probably also trying to get into the match, detonated his vest in a McDonalds (because it’s “American” I guess), but killed just one person other than himself.

I would say that French security did a great job, all things considered. It could have been much, much worse.

petofi
Guest

@ Tappanch

“This shows some incompetence…”

Something is wrong: perhaps a certain disconnect with the secret service elements…I don’t know. There have been rumblings of disagreement between the military leaders and Obama, too.

webber
Guest

Tappanch – The President could well have been right when he said ISIS shrank. Why would saying that expose incompetence? I don’t get your logic. The attack in Paris does not refute his statement in any way. The same day that happened, very significant gains were made on the ground by Kurdish forces.

Reality Check
Guest

Seriously, the lack of critical thinking around this issue is very high.

webber
Guest

Petofi – Lack of involvement by the US? Really?
Please read the following carefully:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_Syria

The US could do more, on that I would agree – but to say Obama has done nothing just shows enormous ignorance.

What is Israel doing to stop ISIS in Syria, by the way? I haven’t heard much about that.

Istvan
Guest
There are real disagreements between some of the Joint Chiefs and President Obama this is well known. There were similar disagreements with President Bush over the occupation of Iraq. To a degree this is normal. But what is not normal is the fact that President Obama is very afraid of getting sucked into ground combat in Syria and the totality of his strategy has been an air war, training, and the use of special forces for lightening raids and what used to be called forward air control now called joint terminal air control ( see this video http://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/air-strikes/jtac-calling-in-air-strikes/2484564598001 ). It would be wonderful if US ground drones were developed to the state necessary to destroy IS, but as yet they are not so it is going to eventually require soliders on the ground and their blood being spilled. The attacks in Paris were organized and centrally planned by an outlaw nation state that claims to be the new Calaphiate, that nation can’t be destroyed by an air war alone or by the use of proxies. Rather than marching troops about Budapest Orban and Simicskó should be planning for an increase in military expenditures up to the 2% of GDP required… Read more »
webber
Guest

Istvan – excellent points.
I would just add that France’s PM Hollande has declared the attack in Paris to be an act of war. Since IS considers itself a state, has claimed responsibility, and has also declared the attack an act of war, Hollande is no doubt right. The question is what Hollande wants to do. If his statement was not just rhetoric, Hollande should be able to activate NATO’s mutual self-defense clause. I would very much like to hear from NATO’s Secretary General on this. A simple statement to the effect of “We are of course here, if France wants us” would be sufficient. It’s up to the government of France now, in any case.

webber
Guest

Voila! Rasmussen and Hollande should speak to this, the sooner the better:
“Adm James Stavridis forecast the attacks would prompt France to invoke the alliance’s article 5 collective self defence clause, which states an attack on one member is an attack on all.
The clause was used for the first and only time so far after the 9/11 attacks and led to the Nato military campaign in Afghanistan.
Adm Stavridis said: “I believe Nato should declare this article 5 and enter the fight.””

Hungary, where will you stand?
Hard to see Hungary standing out of this one. Even Russia is blasting ISIS now.

petofi
Guest

Webber,

Count to 10 and read my series of comments.
I have referred, severally, to the LACK of US involvement in the REFUGEE PROBLEM….and not to US involvement in attacks on ISIS.

Got it?

webber
Guest

Petofi
You’re wrong on that one, too.
Look at how many Iraqis the US has taken in over the past few years. I’ve looked, and so won’t again – it is well north of 1/4 m.
Next look at how many Muslims from other countries the US has taken as refugees. You’ll find it’s an impressive no.
Then look at size of donations to refugee camps in the Mideast, by country.
You speak a lot out of ignorance – just going on what your guts say, I guess. They’re wrong.

Eliezer
Guest

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry says the U.S. will accept 85,000 refugees from around the world next year, up from 70,000, and the number will rise to 100,000 in 2017.U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry says the U.S. will accept 85,000 refugees from around the world next year, up from 70,000, and the number will rise to 100,000 in 2017.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/europes-border-crisis/john-kerry-u-s-accept-85-000-refugees-2016-100-n430576

Guest

Re: ‘By their suspicious silence in all this, I smell a rat in the US–me, who is/was/is the greatest defender of all things American. I’m not sure what’s going on, but the lack of involvement of the US and the UN is deafening by its silence’.

Ah the paranoia begins…;-)…Might as well throw in Vlad’s boys secretly fomenting unrest in Europe’s capitals just to keep everybody moving along to the Putinic way of looking at things. Keep raising a ruckus and having the continent on edge.

Getting ready to watch the Norway match. Hope to hell nothing happens say as in ‘ruckus’. It would only get Viktor’s dogs running for a clampdown. Was it coming to it? Not sure but terrorists help indeed. Anarchy moves things along… for the nefarious and a disregard for morality in the execution of goals. We are hearing atonal ‘music’ played on many tracks.

Member

Literalism and Objectivity

@tappanch: “I did read the Quran and its Islamist interpretation – I base my opinion on facts, not prejudice!”

Now, without prejudice, read the bible, old testament and new. Start here:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm

In most countries, judaism and christianity, despite the sadistic portions of their scriptures, have been detoxified through a gradual culture of “non-literal” interpretation of (some) of their holy writ. Whatever view one may have about the success of this tendency to shed the unscrupulous in the inscrutable, it is only the dark-age literalism of the islamic extremists that sets them apart, not the darkness of their document.

You are fooling yourself, @tappanch, in imagining that you are being objective. You are selectively seeking data that bolster your bias. Maybe the same was true when you were documenting the miscreants and miscreance of Fidesz, but at least there your cause was noble — truth, justice, freedom, democracy, human rights — rather than driven by fear and bigotry.

tappanch
Guest

Muhammad himself made it impossible to detoxify Islam. The movements that tried to do such thing (e.g. Ahmadiyya) are considered heretic, therefore their adherents can be killed by mainstream Muslims freely.

I am for “truth, justice, freedom, democracy, human rights ” in both cases, vs Orbanism and vs “Islamism”.

I hope we do not have to wait for millions of deaths until leaders of democracies finally name the enemy openly. It is NOT “terror” in general, coming from the rarified air, it is TERROR by a concrete ideology covered with religion.

If you show me theological arguments by mainstream Islamic scholars supporting modern democratic societies, I would gladly change my opinion and breathe a big sigh of relief.

webber
Guest
tappanch Could you lay off on the stories about Islam in particular and religion in general, and stick with things you know something about? You’ve never claimed to be an expert on religion, and have not shown yourself to be one here. You wrote: “If you show me theological arguments by mainstream Islamic scholars supporting modern democratic societies, I would gladly change my opinion and breathe a big sigh of relief.” I could, but why bother? I’ve repeatedly posted examples of fully integrated Muslims in the past, for you and Petofi, when you both, separately said such a thing did not exist. I put up videos of Muslim performers who are loved in the West (for being great singers, or whatever – think Rita Ora) and Muslim performers who are adored in the Arab world who look very Western (women scantily clad, Arabs Got Talent, rappers). But neither of you have changed your tune. You’re like a broken record. You don’t want to believe that such a thing is possible. Your minds are closed. If you really want to see mainstream Islamic scholars supporting democracy, you will look for yourself. You don’t want to see it, don’t want to hear… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

“I’ve repeatedly posted examples of fully integrated Muslims ”

Good! The enemy is not the Muslims – all of them are born as innocent and nice as any other people, but an ideology that makes us suffer and makes THEM suffer.

tappanch
Guest

Recommended literature:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali – Heretic – Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now , Harper (2015)

tappanch
Guest

“For more than 13 years now, I have been making a simple argument in response to such acts of terrorism. My argument is that it is foolish to insist, as our leaders habitually do, that violent acts of radical Islamists can be divorced from the religious ideals that inspire them.

Instead we must acknowledge that they are driven by a political ideology, an ideology embedded in Islam itself, in the holy book of the Qur’an as well as the life and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad contained in the hadith.

Let me make my point in the simplest possible terms: Islam is not a religion of peace.”

p. 8 of 303

webber
Guest

Here’s a tune for you – I know ISIS people don’t like it, and yet a Muslim woman is singing it. Odd, isn’t it? Contrary?:

Fundamentalists are the problem, and among them apparently particularly the mentally ill.

exTor
Guest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Ayaan Hirsi Ali just had a birthday that she will never forget. It was last Friday the 13th. Coincidentally, the Wikipedia article on her had its most recent entry made at 18:03 [UTC], 4¼ hours before the Paris attacks.

If 100% neutrality cannot exist, neither can 100% objectivity. I wouldn’t call tappanch a racist, however her slant on Islam could be deemed near-racist.

Meanwhile, ‘I slam Islam’ petofi is definitely antagonistic toward Islam. He and tappanch are collaborators, so to speak. Actually, mutual enablers.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Reality Check
Guest

No you do not always base your opinions on facts. You assume a homogenous and always fundamentalist interpretatation of the Quran. Islamic scholars have heated debates about it, you read it without any training and some how are now in possession of the facts?

Nor were you factual about the refugee/terrorist ratio. You admitted making up the number.

An
Guest

tappanch, here is an article for your consideration about the French intelligence services’ work before the terrorist attacks in Paris.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/europe/paris-attacks-threats/index.html

exTor
Guest

You know, petofi, for a smart guy
you can be really stupid. [2:47 AM]

Why do the refugees head for Europe?
Because it’s there. It aint rocket science.

As for US noninvolvement, that will likely
change in the aftermath of the Paris terror.

MAGYARKOZÓ

petofi
Guest

@Harnad

Your political correctness has long ago revealed that the rarified air atop your ivory tower is harmful to efforts at balanced cogitation…

Reality Check
Guest

Yet Harnad made much more sense regarding this issue than Tappanch ever has.

And what Harnad offered was exactly balance cogitation.

Now perhaps instead of attacking his membership in academia, you might address his very well cogitated statement:

“In most countries, judaism and christianity, despite the sadistic portions of their scriptures, have been detoxified through a gradual culture of “non-literal” interpretation of (some) of their holy writ. Whatever view one may have about the success of this tendency to shed the unscrupulous in the inscrutable, it is only the dark-age literalism of the islamic extremists that sets them apart, not the darkness of their document.”

petofi
Guest

@Reality Check & Stevan Harnad

What exactly is, “sadistic portions of their scriptures”?
Are you referencing the notion of ‘an eye for an eye’?

webber
Guest
Petofi – how about the lines in Exodus about killing those who don’t keep the Sabbath? Specifically 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Then there are these lines from Leviticus 20:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife,… Read more »
Guest

GRe: some ‘cogitation’

Regarding totalitarianism or ‘police states’ as a matter of ‘degree’…

‘Take but degree away, untune that string
And hark! What discord follows…
Then every thing includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite, a universal wolf…
Must make perforce a universal prey,
And last eat up himself…

Our man Will….Troilus and Cressida

From ‘The Practical Cogitator’ A Thinker’s Anthology
(I know some would like the stuff in there)
Not sure it would be in the PM and FM’s offices nor perhaps in the diplomat corps…..;-)…

Hungarian weather has been variable. I’d say important in these turbulent days to keep a wary and watchful eye on the ‘degrees’ in that cloudy atmosphere.

Guest

Not too much OT:

What I’ve always found “interesting” is that in many respects these ISIS people (and conservative Muslims generally) and conservative/extremist Hindi, Christians and Jews have so many similar ideas re sexuality, the position/rights of women, treatment of people with alternate beliefs (aka heathen or heretics or unbelievers) and general behaviour …
I’ve brought this up before and some commenters got very angry – seems it hits a nerve.

If you look at what some people in the USA (even POTUS candidates) believe and say you might start to think that this is a general genetic aspect of humans?

tappanch
Guest

A religious Jewish man has to satisfy his wife at least once a week, I don’t know about similar religious duty in Islam or Christianity.

Keywords
In Islam, honor
In Christianity, love,
In Judaism, life.

So there ARE differences…

webber
Guest

Love is certainly supposed to be at the basis of Christianity. With that basis, however, Christians have proven more than capable of exterminating Christians of different denominations (e.g. 25-40% of Germans in the Thirty Years’ War) and non-Christians alike (e.g. genocide against Native Americans, all over the Americas; Herero genocide; mass murder in Belgian Congo) in numbers far exceeding those killed by people of other faiths – though perhaps in terms of percentages of populations killed, Christians are only as bloodthirsty as pagans such as Genghis and Kublai Khan, and pre-Christian Romans (see what they did to Dacians!) and indeed (arguably) Mao Tse-tung, Hitler (okay by me to put him with Christians – though his “faith” wasn’t Christian at all), Lenin and Stalin (again, you can include them with Christians if you like).

webber
Guest
Hungary has nothing to fear. Hungary is not on the list of countries to attack. If Orban wants to keep Hungary off the list, Orban will not send Hungarian soldiers to take part in missions in the Mideast. Putting armed men on the streets will be as effective as having soldiers with rifles cruising around American airports – it makes a few people feel more safe, but has no real effect (armed plainclothesmen, with concealed weapons, are much more effective). France will have more attacks. Britain is bracing for attacks. The US is constantly under threat. Russia is constantly under threat. Israel is constantly under attack. As I have told Hungarian friends – Stick close to me. If there is a terrorist hostage situation, I will be killed. You will be released (unless you are Jewish, and they find out – in which case we may have time for a brief inter-faith prayer for the souls of our killers). But of course there will probably never be an attack in Budapest (unless of an Air France, or BA, or AA, or Russian flight). Why would there be? I find the armed men on Budapest’s streets ridiculous and not in the… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

The track of one of the fake or genuine Syrian passports found at the body of a terrorist:

October 3: Leros (Greece)
October 7: Preshevo (Serbia)
October 8: Opatovac (Croatia)
?? Hungary
?? Austria
?? Germany
?? Belgium ??
?? France

So he had about a month to prepare for the attack in France.

Bowen
Guest

Why would ISIS rely on someone turning up in Paris on Nov 13 having come most of the way by public transport or dinghy or on foot from Syria? It’s a bit preposterous, isn’t it?
Why would a suicide bomber make sure he took his passport with him on his final mission?

petofi
Guest

@Bowen

“Why would ISIS…”

They would…precisely because showing that terrorist elements are enterring Europe along with the million(s) of refugees would spread
fear and discord.

Reality Check
Guest

That would also be true if it was a psyops campaign and the passport was stolen and planted.

exTor
Guest

I’m not certain whether I should be alarmed at the newfound conspiracist bent of tappanch’s recent postings to Hungarian Spectrum. Others have also noticed. It seems that tappanch is still antiOrbán, though (given this current bent) that may not last. A lot of what tappanch says verges on being reactionary and reflects a perspective that is very close to Fidesz.

MAGYARKOZÓ

tappanch
Guest

I do not like Orban because he destroyed democracy in Hungary and created an incredibly corrupt, de facto one-party system.

I also know that he uses the refugee issue to solidify his power.

A Tasmanian wolf looked like a wolf, but it was a marsupial, not a placental animal.
You may find completely different logical roads that lead to similar answers.

I give my opinion based on the facts and my perceptions, independently what Orban says. Any similarity is a coincidence.

Latefor
Guest

tappanch – there is nothihg wrong with liking some of Orban’s policies. The oposition should not be there to oppose everything the government proposes. It should be there to oppose, to PROPOSE and to accept what is acceptable to the majority of people. (In the best interest of the country.)

petofi
Guest

@ exTor

Your ‘conspiracy’ is someone else’s premonition…

petofi
Guest

@exTor

“It seems that tappanch is still antiOrbán, though (given this current bent) that may not last.”

That is just pure ill will wrapped in stupidity.

Reality Check
Guest

Stick to the facts! It was not found on their body, but next to it.

And how do you how much time he had to prepare, since we do not know if that passport was real, fake, stolen, planted, a part of psyops, etc?

spectator
Guest

Do we know, if both the passport and the person are the genuine items?
I mean, the person is who he’s supposed to be, and the passport is the real thing as well?

Otherwise it’s hardly likely that the person “organised” anything during the one month time span. The best case he’s been recruited/persuaded/drugged into the one way trip to Jannah.
There is plenty of motivation even outside of the religion, by the way.
Remember, the so called “IKEA murderer” in Sweden just received his application for resident permit rejected and this triggered a pointless double murder.
Find a disillusioned refugee – who may have nothing to do with ISIS initially, – and you have your next suicide bomber, with “little help” from religious crap, threat (against family left behind) money (to the family left behind) or any of the combinations.

petofi
Guest

Eva,

I don’t think the ‘reply’ function is working as it should: often a ‘reply’ appears quite a way down the page and not right after the submission it is replying to. Can that be fixed?

exTor
Guest

I drive a Mac, so things may be a little different for you, petofi. I too have had problems with the HS website. There have been times where I have not been able to upload replies.

The problem, I believe, was at my end.

There’ve been times when my Safari browser has been buggy. Sometimes I’ve had to resort to reloading the webpage. There’ve been occasions where I’ve had to quit my app and restart it. That usually works.

When a whole bunch of apps goes buggy, then I do the Mac Safe Boot trick, which is analogous to the PC Safe Mode. That clears app wonkiness.

I sometimes use Firefox to access Hungarian Spectrum. In all cases, I compose my replies on a TextEdit file, then I load my replies into the Reply field. I never compose in the Reply field, I only edit there.

All my Hungarian Spectrum replies –this is #520– are stored in my TextEdit files with embedded HS links and date/time data.

MAGYARKOZÓ

spectator
Guest

I post from a Mac as well, when I’m stationary, and only today I experienced first that my post (reply) didn’t appeared right away when the page reloaded after I hit the ‘Post Comment’ button. However, when I returned a couple hours later it was posted alright.
You may want to update both your system and your browser – or only your browser, and you shouldn’t have any problem. It could help to clean out the accumulated crap, Safari/preferences/Privacy/Remove All Website Data.
It will take away all preloaded stuff and the cookies, so you may have to put in your name on a few places again, but it worth to do it time and again – in my experience.

exTor
Guest

This is not likely a cookie issue, spectator, as I clear selected (but not all) Safari cookies daily (or oftener). This may be a Safari-version issue, as I get messages on various sites that my current version is not supported.

I now use 10.6.8 [Snow Leopard], however I will soon upgrade to 10.11.2 [El Capitan]. I’ve already received from the US my memory upgrade, which will enable me to upgrade the OS. The improvement in laptop functioning is significantly noticeable since I doubled memory to 8 GBs.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Richard P. Ray
Guest

These attacks were well-organized and well-executed. To think they were carried out by a group of people who arrived as refugees is foolish. Certainly the organizers and middle men have been in France for some time. I doubt that anyone connected with this operation arrived within the last few months. The whole immigrant process was too unpredictable for an operation this precise.

Member

Of course you are right @Richard P. Ray. The rational prediction is that — like the cynical and ever-opportunistic Orban, but far more savagely — the planners of the Paris atrocities would take advantage of the refugee crisis and try to add to the terror by recruiting some of the refugees (or, just as good, planting false passports).

Both the terrorists and Orban are currently enjoying the fruits of their sowing of fear and hatred. Orban’s instant (and triumphant) declaration of days of “mourning” and “terror-alert” are amongst his most shameless machinations. The tragedy is that this cynical manipulation and demagoguery appeals (successfully) to the inner-bigot (as well as the fear and horror) in many. Orban’s success is not a result of intelligence but a combination of historic luck plus an unerring instinct for bringing out the very worst in his compatriots and their global counterparts — and a complete lack of decency, scruple or integrity, all ridiculed instead as left-liberal political correctness…

exTor
Guest

Stevan Harnad, “enjoying the fruits” is a positive term, one that I would neither associate with the Paris terrorists nor with Orbán. I would have picked a more negative turn of a phrase. While I’m on a semantic bent, I would not refer to Orbán’s Paris-terror opportunism as “machinations”.

Dont forget, there’s no ‘machine’ in ‘machination’.

RP Ray is probably, not absolutely, correct about the Friday the 13th terror. Everything (this side of the Queen of England having planned the terror) is possible. Nothing, even recently arrived refugee operatives, can be ruled out at this juncture. I just hope there has been no refugee involvement, which would make things more difficult for those bonafides.

«Je plains les musulmans français maintenant.»

MAGYARKOZÓ

Istvan
Guest

Mr. Ray the 9/11 attacks were completely carried out by non-US citizens who had Visas. The hijackers in the September 11 attacks were 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda. 15 of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia.The others were from the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Lebanon. The hijackers were organized into four teams, each led by a pilot-trained hijacker with three or four “muscle hijackers” who were trained to help subdue the pilots, passengers, and crew. None had been resident in the USA before January 2000.

We do not need to get hysterical over the refugees being massively composed of terrorists, but the jihadist will use any and all pathways to achieve their goals.

Member

What nationality was the Unabomber, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, and the person who did the Norway attacks in 2011? Were they all Jihadists?

webber
Guest

spot on, some1 – and you could add the mass shooter in Oregon some months ago, and mass shooters all over the US for years and years and years, including the one who killed a bunch of kindergartners. All Jihadists?

tappanch
Guest

November 15, 2015: “Alstom fined record US$772 million for international bribery”

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2015/11/15/2003632469

July 12, 2012: “Alstom hands over first Budapest Metropolis train”

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/metros/alstom-hands-over-first-budapest-metropolis-train.html

webber
Guest

tappanch!
Now you are back on track! Thank you for that!

trackback

[…] the political motives behind Mr. Orbán’s declaration of a national day of mourning. According to the Hungarian Spectrum, only two countries are holding national days of mourning following the attacks in Paris: France […]

Member

I would not expect too much logic from the terrorists. They strike wherever they can.

It’s easy to blend in France. In Hungary if you go near to a stadium and you have darker complexion you will beaten in a jiffy. Hunkies are so frustratingly stupid they are naturally protected.

I hate to say this but the French probably dropped a ball on this one. They have to beef up their informant networks in the Banlieues.

My twisted logic on the attack is this: it actually proves that there is nothing wrong with the influx of muslims. They are paeceful people and integrate with no problem. These Western Europeans just don’t want to hate them. So let’s help a bit. Further along this logic the best way to fight this ISIS trash is to embrace your muslim friends and neighbors and tell them you love them no matter what.

Finally if your husband is a religious Jewish man overhelmed with duties my number is

petofi
Guest

@ Mutt

re: muslims: “..and integrate with no problem.”

Really?

Where is this so?

Member

@petofi

Really.

I don’t even understand what “integration” is. They have their customs – my muslim colleagues go to the mosk on Friday while we go to a pub for happy hour or the women are fully closed in my gym’s pool. But I have to turn around the queston. What are your examples for not integrating?

Don’t tell me the outliers please, like some woman wanted to take her drivers license picture in a burka or recently Saudi officials refused to dine with French politicians because they served wine. My friends don’t care if I open a beer in their presence …

petofi
Guest

@Mutt

re: Muslims adapting

I know that there are something like 47 districts in France where Saria Law is used; and into many of these districts…the police don’t even go.

But read this:

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-europe.html

OR,

I could quote you the famous case of the Turkish Muslim in Toronto who, after 20 some years of living in Canada, still thought it right to trade in his old wife–sure, quite acceptable…normally called a ‘divorce’–except that he got the younger wife to help kill the old one as well as her/his eldest daughter.

Adaptation?

Perhaps, Innovation…

Guest

Please, petofi, don’t even quote from “billionbibles” – that’s an extreme right wing site full of lies and cr*p!
You make yourself unbelievable and seemingly idiotic that way …
These Sharia law stories are so ridiculous!
And stories like that murder happen everywhere – especially in “Christian” countries.
Or should I quote the story of the Christian father who had sex with all his daughters?

petofi
Guest

@ wolfi

Thank you for pulling me up on the ‘Saria no-go zones’. I’ll be more attentive to the original website, and will be more careful with the wild neocons and right-wingers. I’ve also read the criticisms of those claims.

Still, I find ‘adaptation’ and ‘integration’ a tough nut.
Just a for instance: Mosques are springing up all over. The call-to-prayer is intrusive to non-believers. In a time of technological advance, why can’t Muslim communities do their ‘call’ by employing a special watch that would alert them? Why can’t Muslims in communities they have come to, attempt to be respectful of those already living there?

webber
Guest

Petofi,
I have demonstrated to you here before, many times, that many, many Muslims are not only integrated into Western society, they are also to be found at the top of the pops.

Have you forgotten, again, or are you just unwilling to accept this, and so forget on purpose? Either way, you sound like a cranky old man.

The performer of the song below is Emina Jahovic, a Muslim pop singer from Serbia. Does she look maladjusted to you? Does she look like she has a hard time integrating into Western society?

petofi
Guest

@Webber

If you think that Serbia is ‘western society’…well, you just haven’t spent much time in the Balkans, have you?

webber
Guest

Petofi
Serbia is every bit as Western as Hungary. It is a lot poorer, but hey.
I have spent a LOT of time in both countries.
Attitude surveys show very, very similar thought patterns.

Compared with, say, Syria, would you call Serbia or Hungary “Eastern”?

Member

Petofi, It’s Ok to have aversions to muslims. We all have someting. I hate dentists. The way you’re trying to justify it surprises me.

petofi
Guest

@Mutt

re: aversion to Muslims

My aversion is to the bullying manner of new citizens who claim that the law and culture of the land–I’m thinking of Canada–entitles them to special considerations and intrusive practices (such as the call-to-prayer). For instance, what if a school is located near a mosque…would you want the day punctuated by several calls to prayer?

Member

No, I don’t. But I have the impression that the majority is not bully.

Let me make it clear: I have no problem jaling muslims or any other group for that matter if they don’t abide by the law. I just don’t think there is a problem with muslims. The things you’re citing are coming from the xenophobic extra-right trash media.

tappanch
Guest

@petofi,

you underestimate the number of Zones urbaines sensibles (Zus).

The last count is 751.

http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/uploads/doc/ZUS_FR_SGCIV_20100701.xls

webber
Guest

Petofi –
It’s getting really old. You come out with the same tune every few weeks.
You said Muslims never integrate some time ago. I responded by posting videos of Muslims or the children of Muslims who have not only integrated, but have reached the top of Western society. Since you also go on about Muslim abuses of women, I selected some Muslim women as examples, such as:
Rita Ora
Indila

Every young person in Europe knows these performers. They’re all dancing to their tunes – such as this one

They are massively loved by Christian Europeans, and Americans for that matter. They are Muslim. They are not terrorists. They are 100% integrated into Western society.

Petofi – You sound like a senile old man, harping on the same thing, time and again, even though you have been shown to be wrong, time and again.

Zorgas
Guest
Doubtless there were those who were able to enter the EU in this wave of refugees and migrants who are intent to commit an act of terrorism. The sheer volume of the influx would make it unlikely that would-be terrorists wouldn’t try to take advantage of it. And to a large part the Hungarian state response assisted them. The Fidesz government was aware of the impending influx of asylum seekers well in advance, and rather than taking steps that could have promoted greater security in Europe, like increasing its capacity to take digital fingerprints and provide shelter to the asylum seekers while their claims were being evaluated and their backgrounds checked, they engaged in their traditional poppycock dance of taking counterproductive steps that lead to exactly the opposite of what they are claiming they are doing. They used their preparation time to spread fear among Hungarian citizens and among the migrants, to force migrants to enter Hungary illegally through makeshift fences because there were no proper processing facilities at the border crossing points, to refuse the assistance of the UNHCR and IOM, etc. All this led to a bottleneck of desperate people in their tens of thousands that the Hungarian… Read more »
spectator
Guest
God save us atheists from all these religious believers! I mean from “all”! As soon as religious tendencies clouding someone’s clear view, I am scared and we are screwed. For the record, I respect the belief of everyone, as long as it remains his/hers, and his/hers only. As soon as it manifests one way or another, I start to have reservations. Just the same way as if somebody trying to inform me of his/her sexual habits and preferences. All have the right to think, believe, love or live every which way you want – I have no objection. Furthermore, I’ll do my damnedest to assure you the right just to do so. But to me nobody is better only because she is jew, not moslem, he is hetero, not gay or one group is christian and the other isn’t. Got the idea? So, belonging to a certain religious-, ethnic- or sexually oriented group doesn’t automatically gain my sympathy or antipathy for that matter, you must be a worthy Human Being first of foremost in my view, in order to even consider the rest. (Fidesz and Jobbik worshippers excluded by default – it goes without saying. I’m not discriminative here, I… Read more »
An
Guest

A French senator now links one terrorist to the refugees, citing official investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/15/europe/paris-attacks-passports/index.html

“Fingerprints on the passport matched those of the Stade de France bomber, the French senator told CNN.”

Hm.. I wonder how they ruled out the possibility that the terrorist got hold of the passport in France or Belgium (and did not come through with the refugees) or the possibility that the passport was planted on purpose .

spectator
Guest

Must have been a particularly bright fellow..!
Why, oh why would you need a passport for suicide bombing?
Any idea, anybody?

Alajos28
Guest
Let’s not forget one thing. The global economy is slowing (including Hungary). There’s no significant growth anywhere. China slowed to a level (probably way below the official numbers) where an average Chinese feels themselves as though in a recession, Indians are restless because the dictatorial Modi hasn’t achieved anything, Brazil and Russia are in outright recession, as well as Japan (which is technically in a recession again), Europe is stagnating and so on. (The US is the only exception at this moment, but it has other economic issues.) And all these economic numbers when oil and energy are cheap and the interest rates are at historic laws. What else could governments possible want? If economies can’t grow given these conditions the chances are we are soon facing political problems. Get used to more wars, terrorism, bombs, jingoism, nationalism, order, power and suchlike. It’s a time honored method for governments to fire up ordinary people in such cases. I’m not optimistic at all. By the way important words from George Orwell’s review of Mein Kampf: “Mr. Hitler has grasped the falsity of the hedonistic attitude to life. Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all ‘progressive’ thought, has assumed… Read more »
spectator
Guest

Are you sure, that the last chapter didn’t cam from some secret (nobody have seen it so far) Fidesz party program?

Disturbingly identical views with of their infamous leader’s.
Must be a miracle, or at least sheer coincidence – there is no other way, is there?

ebony
Guest

This seems to be the original article by Orwell. The excerpt is in there.

http://boingboing.net/2014/08/17/orwells-review-of-mein-kampf.html

spectator
Guest

Thank you!
But that’s the point, isn’t it?

ebony
Guest

There’s nothing new under the sun. If a political method once worked, why should Orban, Putin or whoever discard it? Just because it’s “controversial”?

They won’t, and they won’t apologize.

The bigger troll Orban can be within the EU, the more popular Orban can be at home, the happier he’ll be, the more fun he’ll be having (as the EU will keep transferring the subsidies directly into his pocket).

Pumukli
Guest

The chairman of the House Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence Peter King said he was not advocating an internment-style program, such as what Japanese-Americans were subject to in World War II, which he said “went too far.”

Yeah, it’s going a bit too far. At the moment.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/260220-republican-calls-for-increased-surveillance-in-muslim-neighborhoods

Guest

@Stevan Harnad (November 15, 2015 at 8:18 am)
The logic og the format breaks down when there are many comments. There will be no recognisable logic in the sequence of comments. If you want the readers to know what comment you are answering, the only way to do it is to begin an answer with the address of the comment you want to answer, as I have done here. The comments will still be in no logical order. So why not go back to the consequtive order of comments and address the comments?

Guest

When I posted the above comment I pushed the reply button under Stevan Harnad’s comment

Member

You are right, @Jean P, quoting is the best of all (along with hyperlinking to the quote).

webber
Guest

Top of the charts – and Muslim:

RIP all the victims in Paris. I wonder how many of them were Muslims? A few, I bet. A prayer for every one.
Enough of the hate.

tappanch
Guest

“For expressing the idea that Islamic violence is rooted not in social, economic, or political conditions – or even in theological error – but rather in the foundational texts of Islam itself, I have been denounced as a bigot and an “Islamophobe”. I have been silenced, shunned, and shamed. In effect,

I have been deemed to be a heretic, not just by Muslims – for whom I am already an apostate – but some Western liberals as well, whose multicultural sensibilities are offended by such “insensitive” pronouncements.”

p.8.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali – Heretic – Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now , Harper (2015)

@Stevan Harnad

She was called a “bigot”, you called me the same name for the same opinion…
Wow.

petofi
Guest

@ tappanch

Calm yourself: it’s hard to get armadilloes to open their ears…let alone reposition their minds and beliefs-

webber
Guest

Well, we can agree on that, armadillo nos. 1. and 2.
Comparing yourselves with Ayaan Hirsi Ali is really outrageous.
Where do you keep your halos?

webber
Guest

Petofi and Tappanch
Just to keep up a facade of objectivity, I suggest you quote a greater variety of authors who share your views.

A suggestion:
You haven’t quoted Oriana Fallaci’s work, yet. (yes, I’ve read it).

Also, dropping in new languages from time to time could give you an aura of erudition that is currently sadly lacking from your posts

So, you might start a post with the words

Europa erwache!

webber
Guest
Muslim victims of the attacks in Paris: Amine Ibnolmobarak (Benmbarek), 28, Morocco Born in Rabat, the Moroccan capital, Ibnolmobarak was an architect and teacher at the ENSA Paris-Malaquais architecture school, from which he graduated in 2012 after an architectural study on the pilgrimage to Mecca. Halima Saadi, 37, France From Creusot, Halima Saadi and her sister, Houda, were enjoying a night out to celebrate a birthday with their brother and friends at La Belle Equipe. Halima leaves behind two children aged three and six. Houda is in critical condition Kheirddine Sahbi, 29, Algeria Nicknamed “Didine” by his friends, Sahbi was a violinist who had come to Paris to study at the Sorbonne. Djamila Houd, 41, France Houd was from the city of Dreux, west of Paris, and still had strong family and friendship ties there, but had lived in Paris to build her career. As more names are revealed, there will surely be more Muslim victims. They are listed, as they should be, along with all other victims. I have merely separated them and listed them here because of certain posts on this blog. Sooner or later I expect some lunatic (not here) will claim online that there were no… Read more »
petofi
Guest

I wish I was a cartoonist.
I would draw a figure–personifying Harnad & Webber & others of the political correctness brigade–lying prostrate on the ground holding the feet of a terrorist towering above him. There are three knives sticking out of his back, but he adamantly cries out: “I belive you! You are misunderstood! I know you love us and mean no harm!!” The terrorist, glowering above him, is preparing to pull his leg free before he throws his hand-held bomb down at the supine figure…

spectator
Guest

In my opinion there is no separate “political correctness” and “correctness” in general.

You either correct all the time – or at least intend to be and do your best, – and when it comes to politics then you are “politically correct” too, or you don’t.

Life much simpler that way, regardless of the adjective.
Just be correct – the rest will follow 😉

Eliezer
Guest

In my opinion there is no separate “political correctness” and “correctness” in general.

They are opposite things. Correctness is based on non-ideological common sense that every day checks itself by the Ten Commandments, by ideas of Renaissance and Enlightenment, by humanism and kindness. Debate, respectful discussion of the type of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle school are intrinsic part of this way of intellectualism.

“Political correctness” is an ideological party line, and its first value is obedience, it has no value for real liberties, freedom of speech; representative of this way of thinking and behavior offend and humiliate their opponents, throwing dirty words (racists, fascists) at the first disagreement. I do not remember whom the words belong that the fascists of the future (of our present) will try to present themselves as “anti-fascists”.

The ideologies were the major killers during the first half of the 20th century. I am afraid their murderous role has been in practice now.

spectator
Guest

You may have a point, Eliezer.

I didn’t considered the fact that being “politically correct” in the forties in Europe meant being nazi, or in Hungary today it means being xenophobe and retrograde to the extreme.
(Throwing around derogatory adjectives seems to me is a politically independent habit – particularly if one reading in Hungarian – practically it goes well, regardless of the topic.)

Silly me thought that being correct (or aiming to) all the time may solve the problem. I was wrong, and I admit it!

Thank you for the correction!

Eliezer
Guest

Pollister: Two-Thirds Of Hungarians Oppose Mandatory EU Quota For The Distribution Of Immigrants

Sixty-five per cent of the Hungarian electorate rejects the distribution of immigrants arriving to European Union member states on the basis of a mandatory quota.

http://hungarytoday.hu/news/viktor-orban-defender-europe-swiss-weeklys-interview-hungarian-leader-full-50008

“VIKTOR ORBÁN, DEFENDER OF EUROPE” – SWISS WEEKLY’S INTERVIEW WITH HUNGARIAN LEADER IN FULL

Have any of your colleagues in the EU recently called you to seek your advice, to thank you or to apologise to you?

Relationships with our colleagues are not always easy – whether on the phone, or in person. We meet every two weeks; that is quite frequent. Only last Sunday we had a meeting out of the blue with heads of state and government from the Balkan states, Austria and Germany.

petofi
Guest

@Webber

And what’s this ridiculousness of showing pop singers as examples of ‘adaptation’?
You’re cracked.
(As for Muslim singers, I was fond of a young fellow from Algeria a few years back. Do you think that Algerian Muslims would consider that as a sign of MY adaptability?)

webber
Guest

Petofi
Now you’ve put me in the
“political correctness brigade…”
Put me with anarchists, if you wish, but keep me out of brigades. (I won’t speak for S. Harnad – he’s eloquent enough for himself, and he and I don’t agree on everything – he surely wouldn’t like my “brigade”)

Apparently you didn’t notice that I back military intervention against ISIS (look at some of my posts above)

You don’t ever notice anything that doesn’t agree with your personal phobias. We all see that (see others’ comments to you, above)

You are one of the “screamers.” All mouth. You think shouting louder and louder about the dangers of Islam is action, is getting something done. All you’re doing is making the problem worse with your screaming. It’s all screaming ever does.

Do you know who Ahmed Merabet was?

Look him up. He’s one of those people you claim don’t exist.

If we listened to you, we’d keep people like him out of Europe too.

webber
Guest

What do you mean “ridiculousness of showing pop singers as examples of ‘adaptation'”?

What is ridiculous about that?
Why not post examples from pop?
Would you prefer scientists? Physicians? What would satisfy you?
I could give you plenty of examples of more ordinary Muslims who are living quite well in Western society, who are successful and who are indeed more peaceful than you. What would the point be?

To every example of Muslims who have succeeded and integrated, who are just normal people, you would say “that’s irrelevant,” wouldn’t you? You always do. You always go back to your old tune.

You can’t be convinced. Your mind is closed, tight.

wpDiscuz