An old story surfaces: Iván Fischer’s 2011 letter to Hillary Clinton

I assume that most of you know that former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, under Republican pressure, eventually made public all of the emails on her private server. All 63,452 of them. They are now available on the website of the State Department. Putting in the search tag “Hungary” yields few results and those few are of little interest, except for one that Válasz, which unlike other Simicska publications is still loyal to the Orbán government, immediately made public. It was a letter Iván Fischer, the world renowned conductor, wrote to Vernon Jordan, former adviser to President Bill Clinton and a close friend of the Clintons. The letter was written on June 28, 2011, two days before Hillary Clinton was due for a visit in Budapest. The letter reads:

Dear Vernon,

I  hope you are well.

This week Hillary Clinton will visit Hungary. I suggest that she should be very careful to avoid an embarrassment. The press is already full with remarks that her visit will be seen as an approval for the Hungarian government and Prime Minister Viktor Orban.

She should be aware that Mr. Orban’s government is demolishing democracy in Hungary and is introducing a harsh system with disregard of human rights and freedom of speech. For her information I attach two articles:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/26/AR2010122601791.html?utm_source=mandiner&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=mandiner_201512

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/04/28/hungary-threat/

Please warn Mrs. Clinton before her trip to Hungary (planned for June 30). I’m always available for help or information. Unfortunately I fear that the US Ambassador in Hungary, who is very close to Mr. Orban, may not give her a full, balanced view of the dangers involved. Unless she makes a public statement about worries of dictatorial tendencies in Hungary, her visit will be seen as supporting an autocratic regime.

With warmest regards to Ann and you,

Ivan Fischer

As we now know, the letter was forwarded to Hillary Clinton’s office. There Cheryl D. Mills, Clinton’s chief of staff, and Huma Abedin, a long-time aide to Clinton, noted that the secretary of state, both in her speech and in her meeting with civil society and opposition leaders, will explain the American point of view on the Orbán government.

As you can imagine, the letter was music to the ears of András Bódis, who gave the following headline to his article: “Iván Fischer snitched on Orbán in America–Here is the original letter.” As for Bódis’s political views, the following sentences from the article should make them apparent to everyone: “If Uncle Pista Csurka in those days had written in Magyar Fórum that Hungarian liberals were directly denouncing the current Hungarian leadership, everybody would have labelled it a dreadful conspiracy theory. But what happens when reality and the conspiracy closely resemble one another?” Aren’t we friendly with Uncle Pista, whose ideas greatly influenced the young founders of the anti-Semitic, anti-Roma Jobbik.

The two pictures Válasz chose for their article

The two pictures Válasz chose for their article

Within hours all the far-right internet sites were having a heyday with this great discovery, the only difference being the choice of the verb to describe Fischer’s sin: to snitch, to dump on, to denounce, or, Magyar Idők’s: “to stab Hungary in the back.”

A few words about Iván Fischer and his familiarity with people like Vernon Jordan. Fischer spent a considerable amount of time in Washington between 2006 and 2010, during which he “captured Washington’s heart” as principal conductor and later music director of the National Symphony Orchestra of Washington. He never had the opportunity to meet with Hillary Clinton, but he became good friends with many other important American politicians, including Vernon Jordan, the civil rights activist.

Iván Fischer’s opposition to Viktor Orbán’s political position has never been a secret. He made his worries about the future of Hungarian democracy public early on, not just in Hungary but also abroad. In January 2011 he gave an interview to Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung where he called attention to Orbán’s nationalist demagoguery and his attempts to control the media. He considered the situation serious: “There is a danger that the country is sinking into a nationalist dictatorship.” This might have sounded alarmist at the time but, as we know by now, Iván Fischer was in fact prophetic in this interview.

Yesterday afternoon György Bolgár on his popular talk show “Let’s Talk It Over” had an interview with Fischer, during which Fischer reiterated his belief that “all Hungarians have the right to engage in a conversation about the future of their country.” He said he cares deeply about this country and believes that it is in the interest of every Hungarian not to allow the complete destruction of the democratic structure. Everybody should raise their voices in defense of democracy in every possible forum.

I might add here that Iván Fischer wasn’t the only one who approached Hillary Clinton before her trip to Hungary in June 2011. Attila Ara-Kovács, György Dalos, Gábor Demszky, Miklós Haraszti, Róza Hodosán, János Kenedi, György Konrád, Bálint Magyar, Imre Mécs, Sándor Radnóti, László Rajk, Sándor Szilágyi and Gáspár Miklós Tamás also sent a letter to Hillary Clinton on June 26, 2011. Here are a few passages from this letter: “In the past year, the rule of law has been seriously damaged in our country. The Prime Minister … is openly distancing himself from the ideals of Western democracies, calling them obsolete. His ruling coalition systematically demolishes the constitutional guarantees of separation of powers, removing all checks and balances that restrain the executive.” And it went on at some length to describe the political situation in Hungary. This letter also reached its destination, as some of the signatories learned later.

It is perhaps worth reflecting briefly on Magyar Idők‘s headline,”Iván Fischer stabbed Hungary in the back.” Equating a government with the country and its citizens is a common logical fallacy, one that the journalist of Magyar Idők committed in equating “snitching” on Viktor Orbán with stabbing Hungary in the back. For him, it seems, every decision that Viktor Orbán makes is in the best interest of the country, even if it is blatantly obvious that this is not the case.

Yes, Iván Fischer is right: we all have to raise our voices against the regime Viktor Orbán has introduced in Hungary. Including writing letters to foreign politicians, if necessary.

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Observer
Guest

Thank you Mr. Fisher.

Guys, it’s an easy logic, the way I see it :
the Orbán character is a political charlatan, who destroyed the Hungarian republic by a sneaking putsch and replaced it with a fascist-light regime. Together with his corruption system of historical proportions this is slowly, but surely dragging the Hungarian economy down as well (as most indicators prove).

Hence, Orbán is enemy #1 to Hungary.

Hence, every patriot should do anything he/she can to expose, wound and eventually bring down his regime: from simple vote casting to activist work, financial support, and surely international publicity.

After all, Szt. Isván called on the Germans, Horty ditto, the Hungarians expected the US to fight the victorious Russians out in 1956, now they rely on NATO to guarantee their security and the EU to finance their economic development. Orbán’s envoys like Tamás Felegi / Friends of Hungary spend millions of taxpayers’ dollars wooing US politicians.

So what’s the fuss now? Ah, someone else’s doing it this time!
Outrageous, high treason – screams Jumping Jack !

Keep the good work Mr. Fisher.

Gabor
Guest

It is amazing to see that the only time there is “democracy” in any country, when the Fischer-kind are in power. On October 23, 2006, when the Hungarian people exercised their constitutional right, peaceful assembly, to remember the heroes of 1956, the police(?) masked and without proper identification, were beating, shooting with rubber bullets, arresting and torturing the people. I am sure, Fischer (and his comrades) still have the mask and the truncheon. Of course, that was democracy! In 2010 and 1014 the people elected Orban with 2/3 majority, and put an end to it. No wonder Fischer was too eager to lick Clinton’s behind, hoping to get back close to the pork-barrel again.

webber
Guest

Truncheon?comment image

In power? When was Fischer’s “kind” as you put it, ever in power? And what is Fischer’s kind? Violinists? Or cellists?

Adam Gombas
Guest

I love the way Orban fences off Hungary, and how he is being copied by an increasing number of countries, the last one being Switzerland to join the club and keep out migrants. No wonder he was chosen Man of the Year by Politico. Just remember, as Die Presse did, that Austria is doing the same, while its chancelor, Mr. Faymann, was making idiotic references to the Holocast when denoncing the Orbanite fence. The denouncers you cite happen to be Jewish with one exception, although The Jewish population constitutes only about 1 percent of Hungarians living in Hungary. And you wonder why some Hungarians are anti-Semites. Keep fanning the flame.

Guest

“The denouncers you cite happen to be Jewish with one exception…”

We have seen, latest in Hungary, how easily a country can be hijacked by a ruthless power hungry person. All it takes is to nourish the atavistic instinct of xenophobia/racism/religious intolerance that is latent in all people. We have also seen that when this monster has been woken up it demands blood.

Observer
Guest

Spot on Jean.

These regimes permanently claim to be in a struggle, a revolution, a war (Orbán küzd) even as they regularly claim victories, e.g. Gadhafi and Castro were still blabbering about “the revolution”.

In the process the enemies are exchanged, no matter. The important part is the required vigilance, toughness and the apparatus to fight these enemies, foreign and internal. Once the routines are established, the dictator just point his finger to the next “enemy” and off they go.

exTor
Guest

This is racist crap, Adam Gombas.

What I thought was ironic sarcasm [“I love the way Orbán fences off Hungary …”] at the beginning turns out to be a note of love for VO.

Instead of dealing with the facts of the criticism, you fixate on the fact of Jewishness. To you, it is salient that all (save one) of the critics of Viktor Orbán are Jews. You, in effect, justify antisemitism by suggesting that normally unantisemitic (or at least neutral) Hungarians have become radicalized racists because of the religious backgrounds of those who see problems with the Orbánite Fidesz government.

You are a racist, Adam Gombas. You are not unlike many Hungarians. You try to justify your racism by pointing to irrelevancies like race and religion. You try to justify Hungary’s insularity by pointing to Switzerland’s.

Your opinion is a pretense of constructiveness. It is destructive. You are destructive. Your racism fans the flames of hatred.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Adam Gombas
Guest

I understand that religiosity is “irrelevant”, just as it is in the case of the religious affiliation of the murderers of ISIS, or the religious background of the members of the Israeli Defense Force, shooting at children on the occupied /word you would not find in any mainstream paper/ Palestinian territories. You are absolutely right. All these irrelevancies and happenchances… The problem is that you are getting more and more isolated with your pathetic blurts.

webber
Guest

Adam Gombas
Orban wasn’t chosen as “man of the year” he was chosen, in a ranking including a transvestite, and many others, as the person who is having the most effect in Europe.

That ranking is by Politico alone – a journal/organization I didn’t know existed before the news came out in Hungarian (had you ever heard of it before? Be honest, now).

I suggest you try the following:
Go out onto the streets in any Western European capital and ask a random stranger if they can name the leader of Hungary. Ask them whether they can point to Hungary on a map. Ask them what their impression is of Hungary, and of Hungary’s leader.

Do let us know what your findings are…

P.S. in their time, Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin were considered as having the most effect in Europe by journals and newspapers that were and are far better known than Politico.

Member

“P.S. in their time, Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin were considered as having the most effect in Europe by journals and newspapers that were and are far better known than Politico.”

Excellent point. Hitler was actually Time Magazine’s “Person of the Year” in 1938, and Stalin won that “award” in 1939 and 1942.

Being the “Person of the Year” is just to signify that person had a “significant” effect on the world in that year…. it does not take sides, or mean in any way that the effect was actually a de facto positive contribution.

Member

Adam Gombas:
“The Jewish population constitutes only about 1 percent of Hungarians living in Hungary.” Many Hungarians did a thorough job at WWII. Prior to that the population was 5%. Your comment regarding this is wishes. Shame on you! But again Orban and his fan club knows no shame.

The building of the fence was never the problem regardless what you think (and how you been educated by the Orban PR). It is the type of fence it used, and because the fence was built to keep the refugees out, not for the proper processing purposes. Try reading, as it helps. Other civilized countries would like to ensure proper channels.
Hungary was accused with inhuman treatment of the refugees and you cannot change that. It is done! That is what Orban and the Hungarian catholic church advocated. That is your standard, very too bad for you.

Oh, before I forget.. Hitler was Man of the Year by Time Magazine in 1938. Paris Hilton was the most popular celebrity at some point, and the Kardashians are beating out most on popularity. You know, you should not mix up infamous, famous, and known.

Adam Gombas
Guest

If my comment is a wish, and you deny the fact that the 5 % rate of Jews in Hungary dropped to 1 %, then you are a Holocaust denier. You could land in jail for that in many countries.

Guest

Wow!
A real “Hungarian” response …
It’s always someone else’s fault …
Blame the messenger …

A bit OT:
Has this been discussed already?
http://bbj.hu/politics/pm-this-world-order-has-reached-its-end_108125
“The world we have been living in cannot “go on any longer, as we know it”, and European democracy is in danger, while the dominance of the western economy is reaching its end, Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orbán said today at a meeting of the Hungarian Diaspora Council, Hungarian online daily index.hu reported.!
And even worse and almost unbelievable:
“The political discourse based on human rights is “slowly reaching its end” and the “export of western democracy has failed”, the Hungarian leader said. He added that he believes that the export of democracy caused more trouble for the world then good, which is “sad but true”, index.hu reported. “We need to get back to real politics”, he was quoted as saying.”

Observer
Guest

OMG I would have said, if I didn’t know the beast.

Anyway, you heard the man “We need to get back to real politics”, i.e. we have to get serious with this fascism business, if Orbán’s up now politics are any guide.

Member

“The political discourse based on human rights is “slowly reaching its end”
Give him latefor and Adam Gombas! They would thrive.

Latefor
Guest

Some1 – what a provocative comment! You would just love to see fireworks in that little country, wouldn’t you!

Observer
Guest

@ Latefor

I understand your point, let’s not provoke, let’s not make much noise, no fireworks. Not now, when the Orbán mafia has got into the routine if ripping and raping little country as they please.
It would be most unpatriotic to expose Orbán’s dirty linen, right ?

Member

@latefor Please send your complaint to your dear leader! It is him who said the above “provocative comment”. It is him who “would just love to see fireworks in that little country”. It is you who supports him, won’t you? http://bbj.hu/politics/pm-this-world-order-has-reached-its-end_108125
It is you who applauding the Dear Leader, does not matter how much hate he spreads, so what will you say now? Is he provocative for your heart? Is he wicked? You should be part of this transformation with him, no? Why not? If he believes it is good for Hungarians why would not be good for the faithfuls like you?

Latefor
Guest

Some1 – same old story: ACTION – REACTION – ACTION – REACTION
It takes two to tango!

exTor
Guest


Heaven 17 … (We Don’t Need This) Fascist Groove Thang

I’ve gone through many musical incarnations, starting with the advent of rock-‘n’-roll in the 1950s, 1960s pop music, 1970s album rock, then disco.

Loved them all, but my fave is the 1980s music that was primarily Brit: punk, electropop, ska, etcetera. A fave group was Heaven 17, from which I proffer a selection appropriate to the current topic and responses. Enjoy!

MAGYARKOZÓ

webber
Guest

OT – old topic:
Surprise, surprise – the Hungarian govt. daily, Magyar Idők, misquoted former P.M: Medgyessy when it alleged that he said corruption was just as bad in previous governments as it is now.
At least that’s what Medgyessy says since, finally, someone asked him what he really said, as proper journalists should.

444, again, appears as a govt. mouthpiece: it took Magyar Idők’s story as “truth” and didn’t even bother to ask Medgyessy. This is a pattern from 444.

Index, however, did ask – and has now reported what Medgyessy said on ATV.

So, again, Index and ATV appear to be proper news sources, with an understanding of journalism, while 444 just repeats whatever nonsense it finds online from the Hun. govt., without even bothering to check whether the story is correct.

Index story here:
http://index.hu/belfold/2015/12/05/medgyessy_petert_felreertettek_tapinthatobb_most_a_korrupcio/

ATV broadcast here:
http://www.atv.hu/belfold/20151205-medgyessy-a-magyar-idok-es-a-nepszabadsag-is-felreertett

IF Magyar Idők was correct (which I strongly doubt) it can now prove that by releasing the full recording of its interview with Medgyessy. If it does not do so, then Magyar Idők (again) has been shown to be a liar.

domestic
Guest

Webber:

How come Medgyessy didn’t deny his “false” statement before?

Weeks later Medgyessy suddenly realizes that he was misquoted?

This sounds fishy.

I guess Medgyessy was told by everyone he met during that intervening period that Fidesz bought him (kilóra megvettek Petikém) and – although he was indeed purchased by Fidesz – he now realized that he was stupid to make that public.

So now he complains.

He must have known that if he gives an interview to Heti Válasz or to Magyar Idők he will be misquoted and used for Fidesz (ie. to elicit critical quotes about the left-wing, about Gyurcsány etc.).

He is just one of many who was coopted (purchased) by Fidesz. They are pretty good at that. That’s all.

webber
Guest

Domestic:
Ask Medgyessy!!! Don’t come up with theories – just ASK!
But that’s just what you Fidesznyiks never do. You NEVER check your stories. You just vomit back whatever The Party tells you is the truth (on 444, often enough, and on 888 always).
I really don’t know why you lot haven’t started using a term to mark one another. May I suggest “polgártárs?”

webber
Guest

P.S.
I’ll say it again, in a different way: as long as Magyar Idők doesn’t release the full recording of the interview with Medgyessy, it will appear that Medgyessy is telling the truth and Magyar Idők lied. The more time passes, the more it will seem that Magyar Idők is the liar (it’s either that paper, or Medgyessy who is lying – the ball is in Magyar Idők’s court now)

domestic
Guest
I wouldn’t ask him because even if he denied it I wouldn’t believe him. The mere fact that he talked to Magyar idők is enough to support the thesis that he was coopted by Fidesz. Magyar idők or Heti Válasz only, I repeat only publishes any interview with any leftist or liberal if such person will openly denounce the liberals or leftists (or will say something that can be sold as such). I repeat it Medgyessy must have been on notice that his person will be used by Fidesz to the latter’s advantage. One way or another. Nobody is interested in Medgyessy, especially Fidesz, he is a boring person who can’t say anything relevant — unless he can be used to denounce the left. He must’ve known that. But he acquiesced to that set of circumstances and he gave an interview, he let Fidesz use him. Why? In exchange for what? I dunno, he just received some decoration, that’s a fact, or he was involved in some public procurement deal, I don’t care. He should’ve known and now he complains (not too loudly) that he was misinterpreted. Two weeks later. I just don’t buy that, sorry. (Of course he could… Read more »
Adam Gombas
Guest

Now, you should look for another subterfuge. Today, Magyar Idok made the recording public. Medgyessy did say what you try to deny. Commenters here are very boring.

webber
Guest

Also OT:

Orban promised that Hungarians would be safer after he got into office.
Children have been disappearing all over Hungary over the past year, as they have every year. In 2011, for example, the police were searching for some 14,000 children who disappeared.

People I know are talking about the situation getting worse, especially in E. Hungary, but there has not been much reaction from government. The latest to disappear is a 13-year-old girl, last seen leaving her school in Lajosmizse. There is a picture of the girl here:

http://index.hu/belfold/2015/12/03/keresik_a_13_eves_piroskat/

Other information here:
http://eltuntkereso.network.hu/

2011 data here:
http://www.life.hu/csalad/20120718-eltunt-gyerekek-14-ezer-kiskorut-kerestek-tavaly-hazankban-mi.html

Of course I am not accusing anyone in government of committing crimes, but where is the public security/közbiztonság they promised? Where are the children?

Dear opposition party leaders – please bring this up in parliament. It’s time to end the silence. If you put questions to the Interior Minister in Parliament, maybe something will finally be done

petofi
Guest

@webber & the disappearing children

Why the matza-makers are using their blood for VIP matzos, don’t you know?

webber
Guest

Petofi
Your suggestion would be welcome in some circles, I am sure.
The rumors in E. Hungary are all about organ “harvesters” (horrible term) allegedly from Ukraine, and pedophilia/sex-slavery.

Guest

webber (December 5, 2015 at 9:26 am)

Would the Fidesz mafia tolerate such a racket on Hungarian territory?

webber
Guest

Jean P
I don’t believe that of Fidesz.
I do know, though, that there are a lot of corrupt border guards, who let cars pass across borders without looking inside or even checking passports.
Border guards’ salaries are awful, so they’re out for extra money (the same goes for the police).
This isn’t special knowledge – a bunch of Hungarian border guards were recently arrested at the Ukrainian border for taking bribes not to look at cars and trucks crossing the border. The case was all over the press. Everyone knows about it. Anyone who has crossed the Ukrainian or Serbian border has seen things going on. It’s that obvious – they don’t even bother to hide it. Foreign press reporters saw (and reported) that Hungarians were picking up refugees in Serbia for enormous fees and driving them across the border. Some people in Szeged made a lot of money. Somehow those cars were never checked by border guards. A smuggler who can arrange that could just as easily arrange the transport of a kidnapped child – if that doesn’t bother his/her conscience.
The system is corrupt from top to bottom.

Istvan
Guest
The Fisher letter is part of a normal democratic process. The truth is the Hungarian media, on the far right, not so far right, and even the left Nepszava often attempt to depict some things as revelations that are in fact just a normal part of the lobbying process here in the USA. Since everything written to a public official can be subject to disclosure anyone here with any level of intelligence knows that even a non-public letter or email is in fact a public document. I do think its true that if any one of the Republican candidates for President of the USA does get elected, and those odds maybe just increased with the California attack, the push for democracy in Hungary on the part of the US Dept of State will decline. On the other hand I suspect that rather rapidly a new Republican based foreign policy will put Orban on the hot seat in relationship to Russia. I look forward to the possibility of a new Republican administration because I see national defense as my country’s number 1 priority right now. and the Obama administration is totally lost in terms of a defense doctrine. The one aspect… Read more »
webber
Guest
Istvan I’d bet you almost anything that if the next President of the United States is Republican, sooner or later Hungary will be on the agenda in the same way is it is now. Just look at what Senator McCain said about Orban. Just look at what other leading Republicans have said about Orban’s cuddling up to Putin. I recall that Pres. G. Bush jr. was expected to be far less interventionist than Pres. Clinton was. I remember what happened with that expectation, too. Don’t “worry” – Orban is not about to abandon his pro-Putin stance. He’s got too much money coming from that direction. And he seems to sincerely believe that the East will “win.” Orban’s people are in for a rude awakening if they think with a Republican President they can go on emulating and making deals with Putin’s Russia while their press continues to beat the anti-American drum day in, day out (in Magyar Idők, MTV, Echo TV, and every one of their radio stations – someone should compile all of the nastiness, but it would take a huge amount of time). Every American would be shocked and sickened if they could see what the Hungarian government… Read more »
webber
Guest

I misspoke above. I meant Cruz where I wrote Rubio.

petofi
Guest

@Istvan

(You do run on..)

Even the brain-addled, tv-saturated, Americans cannot elect a buffoon like Trump. Surely!

But Hillary will be no prize, either…(Can’t they atleast pick that woman from Mass.?)

Istvan
Guest

Petofi all things are possible. The idea of a Trump election is deeply disturbing, but if Ms Clinton continues to play up to the liberals she may force many conservative Americans to vote for Trump if he wins the primary. There is no major Republican candidate for President that supports a full assult weapon ban in the USA. Trump did support a ban in 2000, but now does not appear to do so.

Member

Fischer spoke his mind. He spoke for himself. Orban on the other hand spend millions of dollars on lobbyists in Washington. We also know from the Snowden release how Orban continually meet with foreign diplomats to bad mouth the than Hungarian government. As usual Orban, Jobbik and their fan club are trying to stir sh*t, and some stupid Hungarians buy into it.

webber
Guest

Some1
Not only did Orban’s people badmouth the (then) Hungarian government – which is perfectly okay/normal in democracy (e.g. see Istvan’s comments on Obama: some of us disagree, but it’s perfectly okay that he says what he does) – but they also spread rumors of different sorts, such as the one that the forint was about to collapse.

Member

@webber: How true.

Latefor
Guest

If you’d stop belting the Hungarians (and the Hungarian Government) on the world stage, Orban wouldn’t have to spend millions of dollars on lobbyists (to defend the Hungarians) in Washington. All that money could be spent on hospitals and creating employment for the Hungarian people. I cannot understand: why don’t you just let him govern and let the Hungarian people decide at the next election if they want the Orban Government or not. It should be up to them to decide!

webber
Guest

Latefor
This is getting dull. You’ve done it again. Who do you claim is “belting the Hungarians” this time?
I assume this time it’s me, because you say this under my comment.
So, I’ll say it again: I have never – not once – said anything about “the Hungarians.” Just try to find a single comment where I did that – you can’t. I never did and never will.
However, I have and will criticize the Hungarian government for every nasty thing it does TO the Hungarian people, and for every lie it tells TO the Hungarian people and the world.
I wish you would address those issues. (n.b. In their time, I criticized the Gyurcsany and Bajnai governments too)
If you did not direct that comment “belting the Hungarians” at me, personally, then fine, but do please make it clear precisely whom you mean.

Latefor
Guest
Webber – it wasn’t supposed to go under your comment. Sorry. Notorious Hungarian (NOT government) beaters: “Petofi” “Wolfi” “Charlie re: London calling” “Mike Balint” etc. etc. Just from the top of my head. In my view, these four “grand masters” have done a lot of damage to the Jewish/Christian relations in Hungary and all over the world. The question is: Who are they really and what is their REAL motive/intention of doing what they are doing?
petofi
Guest

@latefor

(Did you buy an extra bottle this week?)

“….done a lot of damage to Jewish/Christian relation in Hungary..”

Really?
I suppose that the jews have a hard time to ‘get even’ with Christian efforts to improve relations–to whit, the extra 300,000 that Hungarians piled on the trains to Auschwitz in 1944…

Latefor
Guest

By the looks of it, Orban has no other choice but to pack 600,000 “geneticly inferior morons” on El AL flights to Israel and ask the Mosad to skin them alive. Would this satisfy your thirst fo revange? No, it wouldn’t. You would say: oh, but it’s 70 years too late!
How about putting your personal hate campaign and self interest aside and show some respect for the victims of the Holocaust. It’s Hanukkah today. Frankly, I often wonder: how come nobody stops you and show you that what you are doing is WRONG!

Member

You know what Hungarian people would really like? To receive their wages. The Hungarian teachers over and over again do not get paid by your dear leader. Not to worry he has money for Christmas presents and food. http://eduline.hu/kozoktatas/2015/12/4/tanari_fizetesek_kesnek_7ED9OR
Do not worry the are not alone, as hospital workers also do not get paid.
http://index.hu/belfold/2015/11/30/nem_kaptak_fizetest_peterfy_sandor_utcai_korhaz_es_baleseti_kozpont/

If you would get your head out wherever it is maybe you would face what the real problem of Hungarians are before the holiday. Hint: It is not Orban!

Guest
Re: Mr. Fischer and the ‘stab in the back’ I guess what can be expected for the fine composer, conductor and musician who wrote the ‘Voros Tehen’. I’m sure Mr. Fischer is thoroughly familiar with the sharp blades always at the ready who think and do a ‘different’ way. And on Orban and that ‘man of the year business. It seems one of his favorite films is Leone’s ‘Once Upon a Time in the West’ which is considered one of the greatest westerns of all time. I won’t quibble. But it’s fascinating to see why he would like it for it would appear everything he’s done in his political career matches the entire film’s projection of irony. For really he is today’s ‘Frank’ (played by the great Henry Fonda in the film) now acting on the political scene by rejecting the ‘moral imperialism’ of his political contemporaries in the West. It was good to fight the commies before but some things nowadays like democracy aren’t worth a dollar. Apparently much too complicated for modern day Hungary to get around on. And besides the letter of Mr. Fischer a musical addendum to it could be a performance of Mahler’s 6th to… Read more »
webber
Guest

OT no. 3
Hundreds of thousands of government employees have not got their salaries on time over the past couple of months, and have missed bills and payments of all sorts as a result. Hundreds of thousands are still waiting for their salary this month. There is, apparently, not enough money in the system.

There’s money to build stadiums and a railway to Orban’s village, but not enough to pay salaries on time.

Something has seriously gone wrong. Projects now are quietly being delayed (Museum quarter) or stopped.

I smell bad financial trouble – no government that wanted to stay in power would pay salaries late. Someone is lying about the fiscal situation for sure.

Story here:
http://index.hu/gazdasag/2015/12/04/tobb_szazezer_ember_fizetese_kesik/

Guest

My wife heard the “official” explanation: It is some software glitch ???
Smaller villages and towns have advanced some money from their own coffers, she also heard.
It should be ok in two weeks – say officials …
PS:
It would be even worse if pensions (paid shortly before Xmas) would also be delayed …

petofi
Guest

“I smell bad financial trouble…”

Perhaps the Russians–all those expenses in the Ukraine and Syria–have left them a little short in times of declining energy prices….and they can’t seem to have the means, or the will, to continue to buy Hungarian government paper via New York…??

webber
Guest

Could be!
Then there’s the anticipation that the Fed is starting what will be a series of int. rate raises, and that is sucking funny money out of the market.
Also, the WTI Oil price is now (just) under $40 a barrel, and that could have something to do with all this. (in theory, this would put Hungary in a little better position – but Russian investment funds are surely not as flush as they were)

webber
Guest

Wolfi – Yeah, I heard that explanation too.
I just wonder why they are expecting that software glitch to happen again in January??? You see, they’ve already announced that January salaries also might be delayed.

Watch pensions.

Adam Gombas
Guest

I love your self-assured ignorance:

Website http://www.politico.com

Politico is a political journalism organization based in Arlington County, Virginia, that covers the issues, ideas and personalities behind politics and policy in the United States and in the global arena. Its content is distributed via television, the Internet, newspaper and radio. Its coverage in Washington, D.C. includes the U.S. Congress, lobbying, media and the Presidency.[3] It was a sponsor of the 2008 Republican Presidential candidates debate at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library on May 3, 2007, the 2008 Democratic Presidential candidates debate at the Kodak Theater on January 31, 2008, and the 2012 Republican Presidential candidates debate at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library on September 7, 2011.
Global expansion
In September 2014, Politico formed a joint venture with German publisher Axel Springer to launch its European edition, based in Brussels.[20] In December 2014, the joint venture announced its acquisition of Development Institute International, a leading French events content provider, and European Voice, a European political newspaper, to be re-launched under the Politico brand. Former Wall Street Journal editorial board member Matthew Kaminski is the executive editor of the European edition.[21][22] Politico Europe debuted in print on April 23, 2015.[23]

Guest

Adam, you’re funny!
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/hello-dictator-hungary-orban-viktor-119125
That article nicely describes the Fidesz corruption, Orbán’s dictator ideas and his dreams of an “illiberal democracy” …

webber
Guest

Adam Gombas is funny!
I’d bet almost anything that he never heard of Politico before it put Orban on that list.

Wolfi – GREAT story from Politico.

Adam Gombas, what do you think of the story Politico published that Wolfi posted above?

In your view now, is this a very important and great journal?

Adam Gombas
Guest

It is a very influential site and paper.

webber
Guest

Adam Gombas, you STILL haven’t answered my question — You DIDN’T know Politico existed before you read that Orban was listed by it as having the most effect in Europe, did you?
Have you digested the article about how corrupt Politico says Hungary is, and what a dictator they believe him to be?
Now, what do you think Orban’s ranking means on Politico’s list of “28 people who are shaping, shaking and stirring Europe”
Do you think that it means they approve of his “shaking”?

Adam Gombas
Guest

I know that I am funny. Transparency International is even funnier. In 2ö1ö, the last year of the Socialists, Hungary was placed the 50th on their Corruption Index Ranking. In 2014, Hungary was the 47th on the same list among the 180 countries. Italy, Romania, the Czech Republic, etc. are more corrupt, according to this NGO. How funny!

webber
Guest

Adam Gombas

Perceptions, Mr. Gombas, perceptions:
‘the Corruption Perceptions Index by Transparency International …measures “the degree to which corruption is PERCEIVED to exist among public officials and politicians”. ‘ (emphasis mine)

In 2010, Hungary was rated in its region (EU), above the Czech Republic, Latvia, Slovakia, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece.
In 2014 Hungary fell behind Latvia, and was ranked above the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Greece, Italy, and Romania.

So, in relative terms, Hungary fell behind its EU partners (Croatia was lower than Hungary in both indexes, but only entered the EU in 2013).

Do start reading – I’ve found the latest Hungarian report for you. It’s an eye opener:
http://transparency.hu/uploads/docs/unios_forrasok_korrupcios_kockazata.pdf

P.S. Some people here loathed the last socialist government. They are only more disgusted by what has gone on since.

As long as I’ve got a Fidesznik on the line – Where is lustration (átvilágítás/ügynök törvény) by the way? Your beloved Fidesz promised it several times. Doesn’t it strike you as odd that it hasn’t managed to pass such a law? Wonder why? Hmmm?

http://mandiner.hu/cikk/20150727_kilencedszer_is_beterjeszti_az_ugynoktorvenyt_schiffer

Miklos
Guest

What was the position of the USA on this list? Starting with the Clintons, and all those member of the Congress, who, after reelected for two years, their biggest job is to solicit future supporters with money to fund their nest election? And we are talking about corruption in other countries?

webber
Guest

Yes, we are talking about other countries. The US is on the list – but (as I pointed out here) the list only measures “perceptions of corruption”, not corruption itself. In 2014, the US was ranked in 17th place, worldwide, behind all Scandinavian countries, Canada, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, Japan, and one or two other countries (not in that order), and tied with Ireland.
The US was ranked as less corrupt than (for example) France, Spain, and Portugal.

Guest

Just found this – not too much OT:
http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/intention_to_expel_hungary_from_free_eu_movement_is_unacceptable_orban.30574.html
Seems Orbán and others are getting a bit afraid of a return to border controls in the Schengen zone – which would obviously not be so good for those Hungarian economic emigrants and the transport industry.
There has been talk about a Mini-Schengen, consisting just of the old EU core countries.
So now Orbán is a member of the new association “Friends of Schengen”!

Guest

And from my favourite Hungarian site Vakkomondor:comment image

dvhr
Guest

If Orban wants to stay in Schengen then why is the EU flag forbidden in the Hungarian Parliament?

Adam Gombas
Guest

Ask the same question from the new Polish government. The answer is simple. These two issues are not interconnected. Noreay, Iceland, Switzerland, Liechtenstein are also members of the Schengen area, baby. Without the EU-flag.

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