Viktor Orbán’s solution to the refugee crisis has been discarded

I really hate leaving the topic of the teachers’ revolt because I am convinced that this is an important event that may have lasting consequences in the political life of Hungary. Of course, we will return to the subject by Saturday at the latest. But, although Hungarians in the eighteenth century liked to think that “extra Hungariam non est vita, si est vita, non est ita” (there is no life outside of Hungary and if there is, it is not the same), the world is currently teeming with events that may have a substantial impact on Hungary, which Viktor Orbán is trying to insulate from the rest of the world.

I think it is patently obvious by now that the Hungarian prime minister imagines himself to be a key player on the world stage. In the last few weeks he has positioned himself as a counterweight to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, offering an alternative policy of how to handle the refugee issue.

Russian bombers are furiously attacking moderate opposition forces in Syria, driving tens of thousands more people into exile in Turkey and thereby swelling the number of refugees who are embarking on the dangerous voyage to Greece and from there to points farther north. In bombing Aleppo, Russia is wittingly or unwittingly exacerbating the crisis within the European Union, fueled in no small measure by Viktor Orbán himself. Clearly, Europe must find a solution to the crisis. It’s not that even two or three million people couldn’t be absorbed by a region of 500 million inhabitants, but such numbers, especially if the refugees swarm into only one or two countries, can become unmanageable.  So, the influx must be slowed and regulated.

Currently there are two very different concepts in circulation regarding the defense of the European Union’s external borders. One is an orderly resettlement of refugees, which involves slowing the influx of refugees by controlling the Aegean Sea. This idea is supported by Angela Merkel. The other is “the brainchild” of Viktor Orbán and is supported by some of the Central European politicians. The greatest supporter of Orbán’s scheme is Miro Cerar, prime minister of Slovenia. This involves constructing an insurmountable fence between Greece and her three neighbors:  Macedonia, Albania, and Bulgaria. Which of these two plans has the better chance of being approved at the end of the day? Most observers think that Orbán’s plan will fail because “it would needlessly and unfairly antagonize Greece, destabilize the Western Balkans, and create a huge demand for readily available smuggling services.” In addition, it would require a fence as long as and as sturdy as that between Israel and Egypt that took three years to build. It would also entail a willingness to use deadly force.

As the result of Orbán’s masterplan, Hungary’s relations with Greece are strained. How tense they are became public only very recently when Nikos Xydakis, the Greek deputy foreign minister for European affairs, paid a visit to Budapest. The Greek foreign ministry announced on February 8 that Xydakis, whom the Greeks call “alternate minister,” was to visit Austria, Slovakia, and Hungary. In Austria he had a meeting scheduled with Minister of the Interior Johanna Mikl-Leitner and the secretary-general of the Austrian foreign ministry, Michael Linhart. From Vienna he was to travel to Slovakia, where he was to have a meeting with Foreign Minister Miroslav Lajčák and Deputy Foreign Minister for European Affairs, Ivan Korčok. Finally, he was to meet with officials in Budapest.

Xydakis got a mouthful from Johanna Mikl-Leitner, who severely criticized Greek measures taken in keeping the refugees at bay. She “wanted to know why the Greek leadership did not use its deployment-ready naval fleet for civilian purposes.” In Bratislava, where he met with the foreign minister himself, he had an easier time. Their meeting was described as friendly. Instead of criticizing Greece, the Slovak foreign minister wanted to hear about Greece’s refugee management.

In Hungary Xydakis had three meetings. One was with Interior Minister Sándor Pintér, the second with Levente Magyar, deputy to Péter Szijjártó, and the third with Szabolcs Ferenc Takács, undersecretary in charge of European affairs. We don’t know what transpired at these talks, but Xydakis wasn’t in a very good mood when Népszabadság asked him for an interview. He minced no words, calling Hungarian policy towards Greece “hostile.” Hungary hasn’t even sent one tent to Greece, and it contributed only five policemen to the staff of Frontex’s mission. At the same time Hungary sent 100 km of barbed wire and 31 soldiers and policemen to assist in the building of a fence along the Greek-Macedonian border. “This was a political decision, which we consider to be a hostile act from a NATO ally and an EU partner whom we considered our friend. The Macedonian and Bulgarian action is unfriendly, but it understandable that they want to defend their own borders. What, however, is unacceptable is that other EU countries send policemen and soldiers to the Macedonian-Greek and Bulgarian-Greek borders. Who is the enemy? We, the Greeks?”

From the interview we learned that both Vienna and Bratislava offered material aid to Greece, which has had an influx of almost a million refugees. In Budapest Pintér offered nothing. He said only that he will take a look at the list of items Greece desperately needs. Xydakis also reported during the interview that German-Greek relations, which during the Greek financial crisis were severely strained, have improved greatly. The refugee crisis has brought Germany and Greece closer, and today they work hand in hand because collaboration is an absolute necessity under the present circumstances.

In Xydakis the Hungarians found somebody who is not like the usual overly cautious and overly diplomatic West European politicians. Xydakis, who is relatively new to politics, used to be the editor-in-chief of Greece’s premier daily Kathimerini. Knowing the Orbán regime’s policy of immediate counterattack at the slightest criticism of its policies, you can imagine what Péter Szijjártó had to say after reading this interview. The diatribe against Greece was long, but one can summarize it easily: Greece has no right to give lessons on solidarity. It is entirely Greece’s fault that Europe is defenseless because Greece isn’t fulfilling its obligations. Hungary had the remedy from the very beginning: one needs soldiers, policemen, ships, helicopters, airplanes, not Frontex officials. If Europe is ready to defend the border by force, Hungary is ready to contribute to the effort.

Source: The Independent

Source: The Independent

I wonder what Szijjártó thinks now that a few hours ago the decision was made to deploy the NATO fleet to the Aegean Sea. The decision was made right after Greece declared Turkey a “safe third country,” which gives it the legal framework to turn back asylum-seekers arriving through Turkey. The fleet, which is currently under German command, “will be tasked to conduct reconnaissance, monitoring and surveillance of the illegal crossings in the Aegean sea.” It seems that the West, which has been so severely criticized by Orbán, is quite capable of acting without his assistance. The idea of keeping Greece under quarantine failed. I wonder what will happen to the 100 km of barbed wire Budapest sent to the Macedonian border.

February 11, 2016
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tappanch
Guest

In the first 40 days of the year, there were 74,725 arrivals in Greece by sea.
(1900 a day)

Lesvos: 59.5%
Chios: 22.0%
Samos: 6.3%
Leros: 6.3% (this is where some of the Paris terrorists landed last September, then
took the path Serbia , Croatia, Hungary, Austria to reach their target.)

Kos: 3.2%
Kalymnos 0.9%
Agathonisi 0.9%

Since January 1, there is a marked increase of children (36%)

Data source: UNHCR

tappanch
Guest

There are so many evil dictators in this horrible war story:

Baghdadi (if he is still alive), Khamenei, Assad, Putin, Erdogan, Orban …

I did notice that the Iranian-Hizbollah-Russian swipe against the opposition rebels was NOT disturbed by the Da’esh troops who are very close.

The following map shows the front lines to the north of Aleppo as of 2 PM, February 11:

comment image

Guest

I hope the ICC are even now preparing the case to prosecute Putin for war crimes.

There are many other candidates but Putin must be first.

tappanch
Guest

SDF = Kurds. The Kurds try to stay neutral between the rebels and Assad, cooperate with his troops in the NE against Da’esh, but they cannot expect anything good if Assad wins.

Guest

London Calling!

Orban’s expertise in Putinistic Philosophy means he can only understand the techniques of a bully.

His willingness to ‘run with the ball’ and not listen, or help devise, a co-ordinated humanitarian plan has excluded him from any considerations of further EU help for Hungary. He is beyond the pale.

The generous ‘Barrosso’ grants will start to run out in 2017 and even the ‘bung’ revenue will dry up.

Isolation for Orban and Hungary beckons.

Ejection is a step closer – but alas not close enough.

It looks like the USA might get a more belligerent Commander-in-Chief.

Watch out Putin – watch out Orban.

(Get your instruction manual for Steam Trains ready – your Choo Choo train will be ready by then and you’ll have plenty of time for play.)

talleyrand
Guest

A more belligerent CiC? Who would that be? Bernie? Or Trump? I think either way you will be disappointed.

tappanch
Guest

Re: Putin

“Recently Putin proposed the Jews of Europe to take refuge from pogroms in Russia.”

“But a Jew of sound judgement won’t go to Russia. I will explain why. Our country is at the height of the economic crisis. There is a huge lead [gap] between the rich and the poor that do not exist in many other countries. The rich buy villas, hotels, yachts abroad, while the poor simply have nothing to eat. A revolution may arise here.”

Mikhail Skoblionok, the head of the Jewish National and Cultural Autonomy of Tatarstan

http://realnoevremya.com/today/174

Guest
I had to smile several times while reading this piece by Éva: 1. — “I think it is patently obvious by now that the Hungarian prime minister imagines himself to be a key player on the world stage. “– Yeah, the mouse that roared . . . . :-))) 2. –“Currently there are two very different concepts in circulation regarding the defense of the European Union’s external borders. One is an orderly resettlement of refugees, which involves slowing the influx of refugees by controlling the Aegean Sea. This idea is supported by Angela Merkel. . . . the decision was made to deploy the NATO fleet to the Aegean Sea.” Well, good morning sunshine! Months and months ago, when I proposed that this ought to be the number one common sense measure that Europe should take, I was vehemently pooh-poohed by the resident committee of human rights fundamentalists on this forum, and not just because in their opinion this would “violate the human rights” of those crossing illegally from Turkey (which had “suddenly” been declared a “safe third country” by Greece!) , but that I was completely crazy to even suggest that the thousands of kilometers of Greco-Turkish border could… Read more »
Guest

An added point to #3 above:

“Unless the Bulgarian and Albanian borders are also hermetically sealed off, a fence along (a part of) the Macedonia border will be pretty useless, to the point of being quite farcical. ”

In addition, the marine borders along both sides of the Adriatic and those of Bulgaria and Romania on the Black Sea would also need to be effectively sealed off, otherwise it would not be long before the human traffickers would be smuggling masses of people along both those marine routes into the soft underbelly of the Schengen area in the Balkans and Italy.

If they were capable of smuggling masses of people from South Asia to Australia over the Indian Ocean (until Australia successfully stopped them), then they would sure be capable of operating across he short distances over the Black Sea or along the Albanian and Dalmatian coastlines.

Guest

And of course, if nothing else helps, there is always the option of establishing belts of surface and in-ground minefields on one’s own side of the combined fence and wall system.

Like the old Iron Curtain, but in reverse. That was for keeping people in. This is for keeping people out.

A heck of a difference, a crucial difference, but one that many in the human rights community would rather fudge and obfuscate .

Guest

establishing belts of surface and in-ground minefields
A return to good old Communist times?
Mike, I’m disappointed, very …

BritinBudapest
Guest

Last summer when the refugee crisis was at its worst, I remember my Greek colleague laughing out loud when Hungary offered troops to ‘help’ stop the influx to the islands. From his point of view, whatever problems Greece were going through – the horrendous debt crisis, the refugees crisis – as a country the people of Greece were still a lot better off than Hungary.

talleyrand
Guest

That’s awesome – how are they doing now? And who are the “people of Greece” – are you counting the new arrivals?

Guest
Now for my own tuppence worth. A. Compassion without common sense and good judgement can easily become suicidal. B. It is senseless to talk in vague, general terms about the supposed potential ease of absorbing 1 million-odd refugees and economic migrants among Europe’s 500 million-odd people, because: 1. The overwhelming majority of last year’s 1 million-odd new arrivals are teenage and twenty something young Muslim men – notwithstanding media concentration on children and women among them – most of whom are barely literate, illiterate or functional illiterate in even their own mother tongue. 2. Over the past five or so decades, the European experience in France, Britain, Germany, Holland or Sweden with their decades long attempts at integrating Muslim immigrants have not exactly been a success (and that is putting it very mildly), and there is no reason to expect that the future is going to be any different, notwithstanding even superhuman efforts by the compassionate, activist few among the hostile, or at best indifferent many, among the Europeans. It is not as though it was merely a question of integrating 1 million Hungarians or Swedes or Dutchmen among 500 million Europeans, which would of course be perfectly feasible. But… Read more »
Guest
Omitted point in D above: The first purpose of the selection camps should of course be to immediately cull out all who do not qualify for refugee or economic immigrant status, and deport them forthwith to their home countries. It is the second wave of deportations that would then include those who fail to qualify in the language and cultural indoctrination camps, or refuse to cooperate and put forward their very best efforts to fit in. There are too many of these new arrivals to have the time and patience to pussyfoot around with them. Since it is they who are asking to be let in, it is they who have to fit in, and not the other way around. And that’s all there is to it. They would expect nothing else, if the boot was on the other foot, and it was Europeans who were seeking asylum or a better life in the Sunni world, if only as barely tolerated dhimmis under Sharia law. Thus it must necessarily be a case of “my way or the highway,” on the part of the hosts, if they possess even a modicum of common sense and good judgement, and to the extent… Read more »
Guest

Correction: “and to the extent they might be interested in maintaining their own sanity and self-preservation,” instead of “to the extent they might be interested in their own sanity and self-preservation.” in the last part of the last para.

Guest

I would also add the following point H to all of the above:

H.
Refugees and economic immigrants who successfully transitioned from the language and cultural indoctrination camps into the job market, and were thereafter be in receipt of continuing specialized personal care and vocational counseling, should only be provided with three-year bridging visas, which would be renewable if they fitted in to mainstream society reasonably well as productive actors in the job market, and having accumulated no criminal record of any significance. If however they did not fit in, or if they accumulated a significant criminal record, they would automatically be returned to their home countries, particularly if meantime, by some miracle, peace would have broken out in places like Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. Holders of these three-year bridging visas could apply for citizenship after the third successful renewal.

Observer
Guest

@ambalint

Kudos.
Great summary. I am 90% with you on these.

tappanch
Guest

comment image

My subtitle: “The era of Orban ”

(An art-loving friend is carrying home an unknown painting from the museum, after the a new law was enacted just for this purpose)

petofi
Guest

News Bulletin!
Matolcsy has just bid to purchase the painting!!

Guest

Hehe…..

And poor Leonardo…. his bones are rattlin’ for his Mona. Mona with Matolcsy! …. Yikes.

tappanch
Guest

Folktale:
Politburo member Grigory Romanov “borrowed a priceless imperial dinner service from Leningrad’s Hermitage museum for his daughter’s wedding. A drunken guest broke a cup.”

That is why Gorbachov was elected to lead the Soviet Union instead of Romanov in 1985. That is why the Soviet Union ceased to exist in 1991.

tappanch
Guest

“”And I confess that when I read about those priceless crystal glasses from the Hermitage being smashed at the celebration of his daughter’s wedding some of the attraction of the name [Romanov] was lost as well,” Thatcher wrote in “The Downing Street Years.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/world/europe/03iht-obits.4.13433418.html?_r=0

webber
Guest

After the unveiling of a statue to Pázmány in downtown Bp a couple of years ago I saw (then) Orban’s state secretary István Klinghammer pick up the approx. 1-m. tall gilded plaster model of the statue sitting as a centerpiece for the reception after the unveiling. He shoved the statue under his arm, and walked with it to a waiting car. One or two people there took out their phones and took pictures of him walking with the statue. I suppose it either ended up in his office or in his home.

tappanch
Guest

Cumulative Syrian Asylum Applications in the European Union, April 2011 through November 2015.

Germany 184,000
Sweden 103,000
Hungary 72,000
Austria 31,000

comment image

Guest

@tappanch
Today 5:08 am

Does this mean that only a tiny fraction of the 1.1 million 2015 arrivals in Germany and of the 160 thousand 2015 arrivals actually applied for asylum? Something is very fishy with these figures.

webber
Guest

The figures tappanch gave were just for Syrians, not for all arrivals (so, no Afghans, no Iraqis, no Africans of any sort, etc.).

tappanch
Guest

ambalint & webber – you are both right.

Observer
Guest
tappanch
Guest

@Observer

Total number of asylum seekers from all countries.

tappanch
Guest

2015 (Sweden)

Syria 51,338 (male: 64.3%)
Afghanistan 41,564 (male: 82.4%)
Iraq 20,857 (male: 72.6%)
Stateless 7,711
Eritrea 7,231
Somalia 5,465
Iran 4,560

Total 162,877 (male: 70.4%)

http://www.migrationsverket.se/download/18.7c00d8e6143101d166d1aa8/1451894594488/Inkomna+ans%C3%B6kningar+om+asyl+2015+-+Applications+for+asylum+received+2015.xls

Member

The Independent is a tabloid. The USS Dwight D Eisenhower will not be deployed to deal with the immigrants entering Greece. Please kindly stick to fact and stop spreading FUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt).

Here is in fact what NATO will do:

“Officials said three NATO vessels, from Canada, Germany and Turkey, were being deployed to the Aegean Sea under the command of Jörg Klein, a German rear admiral.”

From:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/world/europe/nato-aegean-migrant-crisis.html?ref=world

Guest

“Please kindly stick to fact and stop spreading FUD”

Leave some space for black humor.

Member

\”Black humor\” is of course lost on the opposition and its supporters, who rather uses such things in propaganda that \”Eva at http://hungarianspectrum.org thinks an aircraft carrier is needed to stop immigrants .. ha ha, laugh laugh. what a moron\”.

And a lot of people believe that propaganda.

Black humor is fine for those that appreciate it. But only that do appreciate it. It also does a lot of damage to the left as it is used as logs thrown on the left\’s pyre by the right. I beg of everyone, do not give ammunition to the right to use, as they have little concept of such humor.

webber
Guest

The Independent is not a tabloid.
It happens to be owned by a Russian – Lebedev.

Guest

The Independent has just announced that they will stop printing newspapers.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/12/independent-and-independent-on-sunday-closures-confirmed

Guest

The independent changed its name and went tabloid.
The ‘broadsheet’ is no more – just closing.
The ‘i’ paper has been sold on.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/the-independent-hasnt-died-it-has-just-changed-its-form/

Guest

(It went ‘tabloid’ in 2003 – but still continued as a broadsheet)

Guest
Re: Szijjarto and NATO I don\’t know. I will never get used to Petey in that FM position. It\’s as if we are in an alternate world. Magyarorszag now is like the land that is \’out of place\’. And lots of guys there are certainly \’odd men out\’. \’Connections\’ll do that to you. Anyway, NATO has been pretty active of late in Europe and will be in the Aegean . As noted , they will act as situations get assessed. Putin\’s Syrian adventure is ramping up to the extent that the entire country will be creeping further and further into desolation as he and the rest of his band work the \’peace. As we can see, the refugees/migrants are fodder for his goals in Europe. He\’s a wily bear. So NATO seems to be on the ball with Putin\’s machinations. Going to be interesting later in as how Mr. Szijjarto and the rest of the compadres maneuver as they dance with the big bear. Really I hope the Magyar NATO tank turrets work \’under pressure\’. From the way the government thinks on other things perhaps \’more threatening\’ that involve force they don\’t appear to be worried about any problems in… Read more »
Zoli
Guest

What a mis-representation! Who says that Hungary is against stopping migrants from entering Greece? Naval patrols meant to stop them from reaching Europe? Great! The fence on Greece’s borders was proposed as a second line of defense. What Hungary continues to oppose is Merkel’s continued insistence on mandatory migrant quotas. And it is not just Hungary that is opposed to that. There are a large number of EU governments in Central Europe, as well as in the West, and let us not forget the EU citizens. I can see that left-wing extremists, who constantly cry “Viktator” see no problem with the EU showing something down the throats of a largely un-willing population. Yeap! Those are your democratic values on display!

Guest

Bent English Alert!******Erter!Erter!Erter!*******
English Usage Corruption Alert! ******Erter!Erter!Erter!*******

‘left-wing extremists’ – Hungarian usage and meaning only.

‘democracy’ – so-called ‘illiberal’* state = commocracy. Hungarians like zoli wouldn’t know democracy if it struck them in the face.

* this is the Hungarian meaning!

Advice: please move on to next post.

Guest

Charlie, for a right wing extremist like zoli we have a saying:
To the right of him is only the wall!
So of course for him everyone is a leftist and leftists by definition must be extreme …

webber
Guest

Zoli
Can you read?
Eva just wrote that Europe rejected the Great Orban’s solution (again!), and that’s absolutely right. The Great O likes to pretend he counts for something in Europe. The odd thing here is that some people still believe him even after the curtain has been pulled aside.

Guest

@Zoli
Today 11:56 am

I don’t see anything wrong with what you state in your second to seventh sentences, and I don’t believe anybody else would find anything objectionable in them either, since they are perfectly factual.

It is only when you give vent to intemperate outbursts as in your first sentence and your last three sentences that you get hysterical and/or sarcastic responses on this forum, because with that style you are pushing the wrong buttons of the kinds of people that tend to participate in these discussions.

A cool and unemotional style is unlikely to prompt those kinds of reaction, and a lot less heat with a lot more light on your part would enable you to get your points across to people on this forum a heck of a lot easier.

talleyrand
Guest

The fundamental problem for people like you Zoli is that the “left-wing” extremists who also post on this forum are perfectly willing to lie, cheat, maim and kill for their “ideals”. You are willing to write peevish posts. Who do you think will be more effective?

Guest
Actually, using several fleets of smaller, coast guard type fast military vessels in combination with a heavy use of day, as well as night vision drones, as well as satellite monitoring, NATO could completely seal off the Greco-Turkish marine border on a very short order indeed. These Nato fleets would then be able to easily catch all human trafficker vessels attempting to make the crossing from Turkey to Greece, collect the refugees and economic immigrants being transported by them, give those poor souls a good feed, then promptly return them to Turkey – now declared a “safe third country” by Greece and therefore the EU (hard too understand why it took so many months and months and months to think that up!) – where they would be forwarded under guard to a nearby temporary settlement and immigration selection camp run by the UN and funded by Europe and the US. This would completely destroy the human trafficker business model and as a result, the trafficking would come to a dead halt, and do so very, very quickly, as it did in Australia under a lot more more onerous conditions on open ocean and with a lot less navy and air… Read more »
Guest

And if not, they can only blame themselves for the consequences, which can be just about guaranteed to be nasty and very damaging for all concerned, whether in the short, medium or long term, and any which way one cares to look at it. Another million and a half in 2016, plus the subsequent multiplier effect? And another in 2017, and 2018, and 2019, and so on? One thing for sure: it won’t be pretty. Unless Europe brings the whole pitiful circus to an absolute dead halt, and does so forthwith.

Member

Testing. My last comment was blocked for some reason…..

Matt_L
Guest

Neither of these approaches, Aegean Sea blockade, or a fence around Greece, will work. They will produce the same results as the border fences in the American Southwest. More smugglers. More high risk trips by refugees. More death.

The only solution is complicated. End the Syrian Civil War. Help refugees in Turkey and Lebanon stabilize their precarious legal, economic and social position. Protect internally displaced people from the Syrian Government and ISIS.

So there you go, three impossible solutions before breakfast. Which one? Or Which Two, will win out? Until we figure it out, it will be a horror show.

Guest
@Matt_L Today 4:23 pm –“The only solution is complicated. End the Syrian Civil War. Help refugees in Turkey and Lebanon stabilize their precarious legal, economic and social position. Protect internally displaced people from the Syrian Government and ISIS. “– Yes, all three of these longer term measures would of course be essential to a final resolution of the Syrian problem, but so would be the Aegean sea blockade if it was accompanied by the immediate return of the boat people to Turkey, because this would destroy the business model of the human traffickers virtually overnight. And coming to think of it, given the fact that Turkey has now been declared a safe third country by Greece and therefore by the EU, this by itself in effect obviates the necessity of sealing the marine border between Greece and Turkey, since it provides the necessary legitimacy under international law for the orderly return to Turkey of all new arrivals on Lesbos and the other Greek islands. On the other hand, a fence around Greece could only be effective if it went with a whole raft of other measures, as outlined in a couple of my posts above (point 3 in ambalint Today… Read more »
Guest

And may I add that it seems to me that the reason why even without any of those additional measures the Hungarian fences have in fact proved to be quite effective (in blocking entry into Hungary by refugees and economic immigrants taking the Balkan route into the EU) was because the force and momentum of the flow could easily be redirected into Croatia and Slovenia.

If that was not the case, Hungary would have had to implement a whole raft of additional measures to make the fence in effect penetration-proof (which is very far from the case today). As would similarly have to be implemented not just along the entire length of Greece’s Northern border with its Balkan neighbors, but with a complementary blockade of the sea routes available to human trafficking in the Adriatic..

talleyrand
Guest

Willingness to use deadly force should be the first deterrent. After a few thousand are killed, the next few will think again. In the meantime the kind of wall that the Israelis built in the West Bank seems necessary. The Greeks apparently have no navy to sink the “refugee” boats with but that’s their problem. If the Greeks do not care about their country, they can have it be turned into the next Tijuana – their choice.

talleyrand
Guest

It’s funny that Greece declared Turkey “safe” now. A government that works at that speed is not a government at all – it’s a waste of money.

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