György Konrád’s “Human flow”: An analysis

György Konrád, a highly respected Hungarian writer whose first book, The Case Worker (1969), brought him international fame, wrote an article “Human flow” (Emberfolyam) in the March 25 issue of Élet és Irodalom. It is an argument against the influx of Muslim refugees. Konrád, to the great disappointment of many of his admirers, hasn’t hidden his negative views on mixing cultures and religions in Europe. For at least a year he has been voicing his opinions in the public media and, in fact, went so far as to write an op/ed piece for The New York Times in which he praised Viktor Orbán for his farsightedness in recognizing the danger of the “migrants.”

The influx of over a million refugees to the territory of the European Union is, of course, the subject of fierce debate. Many people who are not at all xenophobic fear the consequences of such a sudden, large influx of people coming from a different culture. They are convinced that the refugees cannot be absorbed by the mainstream and foresee “parallel societies” developing within the European Union. On the other side are those who, for both practical and humanitarian reasons, argue that the refugees should be accepted and assisted. The practical consideration is Europe’s aging population due to its low birthrate. Most of these newcomers are young people, as is the case in any mass movement of this kind.

Konrad2

As I noted earlier, we have known Konrád’s views for quite a while. But this was the first time that he put his thoughts into writing, aside from the short English-language piece in The New York Times. If I read the general reaction of Konrád’s admirers correctly, it is one of total dismay over the message he delivered. The opposition media has acted as if the article had never been published. Only Magyar Idők and Pesti Srácok talked about Konrád’s “conquering immigration” in an approving way. So, I decided to tackle certain parts of the text in an attempt to decipher Konrád’s views on Islam.

This is not an easy task because a great number of Konrád’s assumptions about the Muslim refugees are just that, assumptions. He also paints with a broad stroke. He doesn’t distinguish between the moderate form of Islamism and the ideology of those jihadists whom we see on TV beheading their victims. For him, all varieties can be called “Islamofascism,” a controversial term which, according to most scholars, should be avoided. Yet Konrád chooses to draw a direct parallel between Islamism, Nazism, and communism. All three are enemies of democracy. He admits that not all Muslims are jihadists, “only their minority, but the majority of Muslims are Islamists.” Hence the majority of the arrivals are Islamists “who possess a totalitarian mindset and who are ready to employ ruthless measures against those standing in their way.” These are most likely completely wrong assumptions about the refugees, who in many cases escaped from precisely those relatively few jihadists of whom Konrád is rightly afraid.

What other characteristics does Konrád attach to the refugees, with whom he has had no direct contact whatsoever? According to him, “most of the Muslim totalitarians feel oppressed, and because of their backwardness due to a lack of freedom they have a good dose of resentment.” At the beginning they are grateful, but “once they become stronger they will present their demands.” They will not integrate easily because “they don’t consider European culture and humanism superior to their own.” Konrád believes that in Muslim societies “communities exist not next to each other, but the order of communities is vertical: one is either above or below.” Once they are the majority they will be on top and the Jews and Christians beneath them. So, most Muslim refugees look down on European civilization and democracy and consider Islam superior. Eventually, they will want to change and take over the land that welcomed them and gave them shelter.

A refugee or immigrant should be eternally grateful: “in the olden days immigrants greeted the natives politely, not like now.” As these people settle, they become more self-confident and actually want to “change the skyline.” That means they want to build mosques. Those Europeans who took these people in will notice that “the newcomers are not so grateful anymore; they demand more and more. And the immigrants will realize that the natives are not so kind anymore.” So, if I understand Konrád correctly, immigrants can never really be members of the accepting society with the same rights as natives. Immigrant communities shouldn’t be able to worship in their own churches. Well, let’s leave the Muslim community for a moment and, in a thought experiment, apply these same measures to Russian and Polish Jews or for that matter to the downtrodden Slovak and Hungarian peasants who arrived in the United States before World War I. They eventually had the temerity to build synagogues and churches where their own rabbis, priests, and ministers looked after the immigrant flock. What would we think of a society that made a distinction between immigrants and their descendants and the so-called natives who must be politely greeted? A preposterous view.

Konrád also shares his view of the nature of the “human flow.” Although he is certainly right that integration will be more difficult than if only 10,000 people had arrived in Germany, it is shocking to discover that Konrád’s ideas are practically identical to those of László Földi, the Islamophobic intelligence officer from the Kádár era who is convinced that these masses have been sent to Europe by their Islamist leaders. As Konrád puts it, “with the newly arrived migrant masses came their superiors” who will keep them in the fold. A little later he is quite explicit. “The wandering masses don’t follow the authorities of the countries they are heading toward, but they are regulated by those under whose guidance the march is conducted.” Moreover, “the immigrants are not individuals but parts of the extensive Muslim nation who will become members of a minority parallel society.” This is a total denial of these people’s individuality and free will. Their “superiors” move them about as if they were pawns on a chess board.

Although there are several more outlandish assertions in Konrád’s article, I will close this post with his not at all original argument that these people are not really refugees because, if they were, they would stay in the countries neighboring Syria. But no, they want to settle in countries with high living standards. Therefore, one becomes very suspicious of their motives.

If we compare the present flow of refugees to the Hungarian case after 1956, it becomes evident that this argument is unsound. The 1956 refugees were quite numerous, all fled within a couple of months, and if the Hungarian and Russian forces hadn’t managed to close the borders by the end of the year more people would have packed up and tried to cross into Austria. Where did most of these Hungarians go? To the United States and Canada and other “rich” countries. I very much doubt that a Hungarian refugee, if he could have chosen, would have picked Colombia over Canada, the United States, or Germany. If one has the choice one will pick the country considered to be most advantageous. This is human nature. It has nothing to do with the Muslim psyche.

Moreover, in Konrád’s view their decision to settle in “rich places” might backfire. “They heard this and that, but they don’t know what is waiting for them.” Although he doesn’t spell out just what it is that awaits them, he writes that “to bear homelessness in richer Western European countries” is more difficult than elsewhere. This is so even for those “central Europeans who are looking for better paying jobs in these countries.” I don’t know where Konrád gets the idea that Hungarian immigrants in Germany or the United Kingdom have a particularly difficult time and that perhaps their integration would be easier in Poland or Romania. The newcomers’ “natural habitat is the Near East and North Africa,” where they should have stayed. Similarly, Hungarians and Poles also have their natural habitat where they feel at home. Thus, Konrád practically ties people to their homelands and claims that life outside a certain geographic area is unnatural and in the final analysis goes against human nature.

As I said at the beginning of the post, there has been a deafening silence in the Hungarian opposition media since the appearance of Konrád’s article. But I saw an interview that Krisztina Bombera conducted with him. At the end of the interview she asked Konrád whether those Orthodox Jews who escaped to America from the pogroms of Tsarist Russia were not in a similar situation to the Muslims arriving in Europe today. They also came from a very different culture. Didn’t Konrád see parallels here? No, he didn’t.

I’m sorry that Konrád felt compelled to write this article.

April 5, 2016
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Nors strom
Guest

Hungarians should be the ones deciding who settles in their country. And this would be true whether the “newcomers” had green skin, hooked noses, three legs and one glassy eye or whether they looked like Viktor Orban at his most fit, whether they were God-Fearing Catholics or Abominable Muslims. And the matter should certainly not be decided by people who are neither Hungarian nor who even live in Hungary. Being consumed by irredentism is no way to live – I suggest fresh air and long walks.

Member
That would be 100% true if by coincidentally Hungary did not vote on becoming member of the European Union. Hungarians by their own will wanted to become members of the EU. Nobody forced them, told them, pressured them, or begged them to become members of the EU. When someone sings up to become a member in something, usually it comes with stipulations. Membership is not a Teddy Bear Club for kindergarteners. Membership comes with responsibilities. One of the responsibility is taking a fair share of “bad things”. Not to worry, in exchange there are good things, like getting billions of forints to help with other things. An other responsibility is to follow what other members collectively decide on. You can discuss, argue, but you not throw tantrums (see above the Teddy Bear Club). So, when you are member of a Lunch Club, you pay a due, the membership decides what time lunch is (even if you are hungry at 9:30 am for lunch, and it is your own body, and your own money they will not serve you until noon). , You may pay even less than others for the same lunch because you cannot afford to pay as much… Read more »
Reality Check
Guest

Some of the requirements regarding refugees are international agreements at the global level. So even if Hungary were not part of EU, there are treaty obligations regarding refugees.

spectator
Guest

In this respect particularly disturbing the far less than humane treatment of the people on the move — whatever their motives to this dreadful journey might be.

In my opinion first and foremost we are all HUMANS — or at least supposed to be — which is in my book definitely overwrite each and every other aspect of being, such of race, nationality, religion, or/and political inclination, or whatever else.

The Hungarian government intentionally failed, proved inadequate and even proud of it!

And the worst part: did all this for selfish short term political gain.

Shame on them!

Roderick Beck
Guest

Your comment misses the point. The real question is whether the Hungarian people should be opposing immigration and refugees. The German people overwhelmingly supported Hitler – democracy in action. But it was a bad choice. Similarly since the Hungarian motivation appears to be racism and xenophobia and ignores Hungary’s declining population, it is reasonable to infer that the Hungarian majority is wrong. It also betrays all the moral ideals on which Western civilization. Hungary has repeatedly betrayed Western ideals over the last hundred years and now we get a repeat performance.

spectator
Guest

It’s another point entirely.
While everything true what you wrote, I looked the subject only from the humanitarian point of view, not from the practical one.
Never mind, the result just the same.
Total failure in every respect, but the xenophobic schauvinist one…

Congratulations!

Guest

A refugee has a right to decide where he wants to settle down but you like it or not any country also has a right to decide what kind of people they prefer to accept. So if a Hungarian refugee in 1956 wanted to go to Canada instead of Colombia no problem with that especially if Canada was ready to accept him. Does it have any consequence whether Hungary should let any refugee to settle down in Hungary? I don’t see it.

On a different note I think if you happen to be a refugee you should get ready to accept the rules and customs of the country you intend to settle down, instead of expecting that country to accept your rules and customs. Isn’t it obvious?

If you happen to be a refugee and you start raping girls and kids in your new country it’s probably not the best way to express your gratitude. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/658297/Germany-migrant-sex-attacks-swimming-pool-boy-sexually-assaulted

Member

As I already wrote: if Hungary refuses to cooperate in international efforts to deal with the refugee crisis, it should also stop accepting subsidies from Brussels and pretending it is “protecting Europe”.
Horror stories about immigrants/refugees (these two categories are often conflated!) committing crimes and, especially, sexually assaulting women and children are true to a very small extent. (Of course, considering the sheer numbers of the refugees, there will be some violent criminals among them, too, and these should be punished, simply like any other criminals.) But these stories are also fabricated and distributed, there are countless hoaxes (see e.g. http://www.hoaxmap.org ) and fake “news” websites spreading them. Serious crime statistics do not show ANY increase in criminal offences that could be explained by immigration or the Muslim background of the immigrants alone.

gdfxx
Guest

I happen to know a woman who lives in Cologne, Germany. Lately she is literally afraid to walk on some of the streets of that city. Unfortunately this is first hand information, not a hoax.

webber
Guest

I happen to know an elderly Hungarian woman in Budapest who is literally afraid to walk on the streets of that town at night. Unfortunately this is first hand information, not a hoax. (really – not joking – she’s terrified to go out at night)

Member

Please read my comment at 9:30 am. It will explain in detail.
Also, did you know that Hungarian priests assaulted young kids? What is your analogy on that? These people supposed to be educated, integrated Hungarians. “A Szentszék budapesti nagykövetét a vatikáni államtitkárság értesítette arról, hogy több magyar egyházi személy homoszexuális visszaéléseiről szóló bejelentés érkezett, Juliusz Janusz azonban nem kezdett belső vizsgálatba, hanem inkább eltussolta az ügyet.” http://index.hu/belfold/2011/03/25/elszabotalta_a_szexvadak_vizsgalatat_a_nuncius/

gdfxx
Guest

I resent the Hungarian language wording of the above news item. It talks about “homosexual abuse” of members of the Catholic hierarchy. This just reinforces the legend of homosexuals being typical pedophilia predators. It is a well known truth, that sexual abuse of children has nothing to do with the predators’ sexual orientation.

spectator
Guest

” It is a well known truth, that sexual abuse of children has nothing to do with the predators’ sexual orientation.”

You are right regarding the ‘general’ term of sexual abuse, of course.
However, I hardly know of cases when the otherwise heterosexual male child abuser would chose a boy instead of a girl.
Have no firsthand information, though.

Given the nature of the catholic priesthood — celibacy and all that — I have some problem to decide without reasonable doubt the sexual orientation of a priest, one way or another. Conclusively, without convincing prior acts ,I tend to assume that if someone involved in same-sex sexual activity, and only that, may have a pretty good candidate to be homosexual.
It certainly have something to do with the fact that nearly exclusively boys are the ones who do some services in the catholic churches, like ‘altar boy’ and the kind, so the access to girls to abuse is fairly limited.

I may have some wrong informations at my disposal, even if I’ve been brought up as catholic, even served as an ‘altar boy’ (without the ‘relevant’ experience, mind you!) so I would say I know, what are you talking about.

Obviously not every priest created equal..!

Roderick Beck
Guest

How about explaining the American success is absorbing large numbers of refugees, many of them from radically different cultures? America is built on immigration and your society rejects large scale immigration unless they have Hungarian ancestry. Is that provincial?

Roderick Beck
Guest

Gellert, are the Hungarians in any position to be looking down on other cultures when the country persecuted the Jews as early 1920, became an ally of Nazi Germany, and is still dominated by white, Christian males? I don’t think you have the high ground.

Anna
Guest

Konrad endorsed Andras Heisler , he supports Mazsihisz. Mazsihisz’ chief rabbi, Zoltan Radnoti is a racist, Islamophobe, so he is in good company. They all support the Orban government.

Guest
@Anna Today 9:08 pm This is a nonsensical piece of malevolent calumny. Konrad may support Heisler and Mazsihisz and may also support the Orban government’s immigration policy. So what? And since when is supporting one particular policy means supporting all the policies of the Orban government? And why would support of a particular Orban policy by Konrad and his simultaneous support of Heisler/Mazsihisz also imply that therefore Heisler and Mazsihisz also support that policy? Gimme a break, madam. As far as Radnoti is concerned, the guy may have a big mouth and a tendency to put his foot in it, but he ain’t no racist, that’s for sure. That he is scared of getting swamped by Jew-hating Muslims is perfectly understandable in light of the vicious and murderous antisemitic incitement that is daily fare across the entire Muslim world and part and parcel with the flow of Muslim immigration into Europe. Also, madam must also be a mind reader to be able to assert with such immense certainty that Radnoti too is a supporter of the Orban government? Madam obviously has a problem with Mazsihisz, Heisler and Radnoti, and does not hesitate to stoop to smear tactics in her feeble… Read more »
Anna
Guest

Radnoti should have resigned long time ago after his racist and anti-American statements on facebook. His views are not different from the government propaganda , his comments on the US was like a copy from Magyar Idok or Magyar Hirlap. His Islamophobe comments on facebook were available in the summer. He is not only racist, but also has serious issues with the Hungarian language.

Guest

@Anna
Today 10:09 am

So he put his foot in his big mouth again, in his usual charming style. Well, big deal . . .

I may well be wrong about Radnoti’s attitudes in what he posted in facebook, but as far as I am aware this guy is definitely not a racist and certainly not anti-US, though he might well be deathly scared (with some justice) of Muslims that eat Jews for breakfast, and may well resent (with perhaps less justice) some of Obama’s attitudes toward Netanyahu.

I do concede however that he does seem to have some issues with the Hungarian language.

But in none of this does he appear to have committed any hanging offense, and surely it would be ludicrous to expect that he would resign for parroting (admittedly in a rather hamfisted way) what after all is commonplace public opinion in Hungary.

Anyway, I don’t think that his colleagues in God across in the mainstream Christian churches have actually done in any way better or ethically more acceptable than him in regard to this matter.

Roderick Beck
Guest

The Holocaust was a crime committed by Christian Europe, not Muslims. The truth is that Europe is a weak historical position about its superior culture of tolerance when it refuses to accept Syrian refugees.

Tibor farkas
Guest

As far as I can recall none of the Polish or Russian Jews who settled in America engaged in terrorist activities . Comparing them to Muslim migrants is absurd. Obviously not all Muslim migrants are terrorists However , Konrad is correct in most of his assumptions

Guest
@Tibor Farkas April 5, 2016 10:35 pm Not all people with left wing sympathies were communist fellow travelers or useful idiots in the 1920s and 1930s, as not all communist fellow travelers or useful idiots were card carrying bolsheviks, just as not all card carrying communists were members of the Cheka or the NKVD, and not all members of the Cheka or the NKVD were actually terrorists or outright murderers. But the terrorists and outright murderers were like fish swimming safely in the security of the Cheka/NKVD ‘lake,’ which was part of the bigger ‘lake’ of card carrying communists, which in turn was protected by the sea of fellow travelers and useful idiots that in turn extended right across the great ocean of left wing sympathizers. Mao remarked on the same phenomenon during his campaign against the Kuomintang across the Chinese countryside: “our people hide among the peasants like fish in water.” This sort of Fabian strategy and tactics is where politics, ideology/religion and crime combine into a single unholy mix of great explosive force, hiding in plain sight while corroding all bonds of cohesion in mainstream society. Fear, intimidation, concealment and ruthless human shield tactics are the common currency… Read more »
Guest
@Tibor Farkas April 5, 2016 10:35 pm I would just like to point out that some Jews from Poland and Russia did became gangsters in America, that some Zionist settlers did become terrorists in the British Mandated Territory of Palestine, and that some Jews among the bolsheviks did indeed become terrorists and executioners in the name of the revolution in Soviet Russia. Jews are not saints. But in America, the second and third generation sons and daughters of Jewish gangsters became doctors, lawyers, business professionals and professors, and did their very best to fit in and join the American mainstream. They would have considered a suggestion that they engage in terrorism to destroy American civilization to be an utterly risible proposition. The Zionist settlers who became terrorists in the British Mandated Territory of Palestine were fighting principally against the British Army and did their very best to avoid collateral damage among civilians, whether they were British or Arab. This was so even in Dir Yassin, where some collateral damage did unfortunately occur in the heat of the battle, despite the best intentions to avoid such. In fact, Jewish terrorists in old British Palestine never ever deliberately set out to randomly… Read more »
gardonista
Guest

My non-Hungarian side escaped the Bolsheviks. When they came to the US, they were accused of being Bolsheviks. This is EXACTLY like the current refugees who are victims and enemies of ISIS and who are accused of being allies of the people who destroyed their homes.

i-dea
Guest

Gardonista,

you have written a brilliant concise summary on the refugees.

You are right, they are victims, and should not be victimized for the second and third times.

The people, who weaponized them, should be blamed for the human disaster.

Guest
@gardonista Today 1:08 pm Arguing a general principle from a particular instance does not necessarily substantiate a valid case. The refugees from the bolshevik revolution were a mixed lot. Some were members of the ancien regime, some just took the opportunity to seek a better, safer and more prosperous life, some were able to take significant funds and property out of Russia, others arrived totally destitute, some were Jews, others were not, some were political activists on one or another side of the civil war, some were bolshevik sympathizers, and some indeed bolshevik agents who subsequently played significant or at least active roles in either the Comintern or on the American left in general, and among US Trockyists and in the US Communist Party, in particular. The refugees from Syria today are also a mixed lot. Some are refugees from ISIS-controlled areas in Syria, though the majority are not. The majority are in fact refugees from heavy-casualty local armed conflicts between countless military and para-military factions fighting each other and the government forces in an everyone against everyone kind of scenario. However, no one is accusing the Syrian refugees of being terrorist plants, though it is not inconceivable that some… Read more »
Reality Check
Guest

There were species among the refugees accepted from Hungary into the US after WII ad ’56.

And a very small percent of Muslims in Europe are involved in jihadist activities.

Treating them as if they were all in danger is bigotry.

Reality Check
Guest

spies

Roderick Beck
Guest

Tibor Farkas, show us the statistics that support your view. You don’t have any. This typical Hungarian xenophobia, which I find as an American laughable the Hungarian success is oppressing and wiping out most of their Jewish minority. Really, savage Muslim terrorists? What about the Hungarians themselves? Pretty savage.

Zsepac
Guest

This might not have been the best work of Konrad. Orban’s hate mongering against suffering human beings is horrible. At the same time successful integration of very large number of Muslims into Europe is questionable. There are already large number of 2nd. and 3rd. generation Muslims who failed to integrate. Jewish fear of increased antisemitism with the increased number of Muslims is rational as well. The current refugee wave and the 1956 Hungarian refugee wave is different in size in the motivation of both the migrants to integrate and the natives will to absorb.

petofi
Guest

“They eventually had the temerity to build synagogues and churches…”
True.

But not this: since 2008, there have been over 100 mosques built in Florida alone.

webber
Guest

Where did you get that number?

Reality Check
Guest

Probably a BS stat. But who cares. We have freedom of religion in the US and if Muslims want to build places of worship, that is OK with me.

Please note that according to an FBI report, radicalization of young Muslims in the US does not predominately occur in Mosques. It occurs online.

Radicalization of Christians does seem to occur in some churches. But, I do not see you up in arms about new churches being built.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/tea-party-pastor-same-sex-marriage#

Member
Of course, Hungary like any sovereign state has the right to decide who settles in the country and what kind of immigrants are accepted. But if Hungary refuses to participate in international efforts to deal with the refugee crisis (true, the EU has little reason to be proud of its concerted efforts so far…), it should also stop accepting subsidies from Brussels, revoke all international human rights agreements and stop claiming it is “protecting Europe (or Schengen)”. Of course, there have been problems with the integration of Muslim immigrants and there will be further problems if the receiving countries don’t amend their policies. And of course, integrating frustrated and traumatized young males coming from a macho culture won’t necessarily be easy in all cases. But there is a clear distinction between admitting the existing problems and projecting them to the future and using them as a support for racist prejudices. And there is a clear distinction between “there have been problems with the integration of immigrants” and “the integration of Muslim immigrants has totally failed (burning ghettoes, no-go areas etc. etc.) and will inevitably fail”. I can’t understand why intelligent people cannot see this difference. And above all: how come… Read more »
Geo
Guest

Thank you for writing this excellent piece. Konrád is a Holocaust survivor and in Hungary Holocaust survivors today strongly identify and support Israel’s right-wing Likud party and their message that Islam could bring another Holocaust for the Jews in Europe. Konrád knows that Orbán supports Hungarian anti-Semites, rehab ex-Nazis and the Horthy regime but he also thinks that Hungary’s policies against Muslim immigration are OK, Orbán is “protecting” the Jews.

This reminds me the Pinochet-regime. Augusto openly admired the Nazis, had excellent relations with Israel (bought weapons from them), visited the Synagogue in Santiago on High Holidays and received support from the Jewish ultraorthodox e.g. Chabad. Meantime several hundred Jews were murdered by Pinochet’s soldiers, they were labelled “leftists.”

For an American… Konrád’s position is shameful, his ÉS article is unacceptable.

Member

“and in Hungary Holocaust survivors today strongly identify and support Israel’s right-wing Likud party” Not true! My parents do not support any party in Israel. Stop with this nonsense that every person with Jewish decent (especially Holocausts survivors) are overly political, or give a hoot about Israel, or have some underlying political agenda. Some Holocaust survivors who live in Hungary, consider themselves Hungarians, simple is that. They want to live in Hungary, in peace with dignity, and that is the most important thing to them. They do not want to be identified as Jews, the same way as they do not want others to be identified as Catholics. Not every Catholic is member of Fidesz either or Jobbik either. I truly want this nonsense of painting everyone with the same brush to stop, comes to catholics, muslims, jews, etc.

Guest
@Some1 Today 9:42 am The vast majority of Holocaust survivors, their children and grand children do identify strongly with Israel, at least in the sense that they strongly support Israel’s existence and legitimacy. As such, most also support whatever governing coalition may be in power at the time in Israel. There is of course a minority who are either completely indifferent to Israel, or do not in fact support either the existence or legitimacy of Israel, and never have. In Hungary, they just want to be Hungarians and nothing else, and they have every right to expect all to respect this choice of theirs. The fact is that with Jews at least, there is always a strongly dissenting minority on all matters under discussion, and three Jews will always tend to have at least five opinions on any subject, and a single Jew may on occasion hold even diametrically opposing views on the same subject without having the slightest sense of contradicting himself or herself. Nothing can be done about that, this is the nature of this cantankerous tribe. As to generalizations about people, you are of course absolutely right, though not a little unrealistic, because in debating issues, generalizations… Read more »
Guest
Konrad waffles and tippy-toes around three basic issues: 1. Since Trianon, Hungary has become strictly a country of emigration. As a Hungarian, Konrad is perfectly happy with this state of affairs and has no wish to entertain any prospect of allowing immigration to his country. 2. As a Jew, he is scared of getting swamped by Jew-hating Muslims who have been exposed all their lives to the vicious and murderous antisemitic incitement that is daily fare across the entire Muslim world and part and parcel with the flow of Muslim immigration into Europe. 3. As a European, he is profoundly skeptical of the capacity of Europe’s ethnic nations to integrate and absorb large numbers of Muslim newcomers, particularly in light of the miserable failure of integrating and absorbing previous cohorts of Muslims in Britain, France, Germany and Sweden, over the past half a century. Let us sincerely hope that the experiment in integrating and absorbing the current cohort of Muslim newcomers in Germany and Sweden would be a lot more successful than past European attempts, recognizing however that the current gamble could only be judged a success or failure three or four decades hence, after it became clear how well… Read more »
Istvan
Guest
ambalint I did find it ironic that Eva used our multicultural society here in the USA as part of a critique of Konard. She has gone after me several times for making analogies to the USA on the basis of what can only be called Hungarian exceptionalism. But here is what I find creepy about Konard’s position, it is parallel to the idea taught some of us that the increased Jewish settlement in Budapest was a result of the Ottoman occupation. Effectively like the Turks the Jews were an alien body in the Hungarian nation and were in league with each others to dominate the mythical pure Magyarok. This theory was presented to me as a child as part my Saturday Hungarian school lessons by a leader in our community who it turned out was also a former Arrow Cross member. I of course read as a young boy Geza Gardonyi’s children’s book on the Battle of Eger. We were never, ever taught about 1494 when there was a blood libel in Tyrnau and 16 Jews were burned at the stake. In its wake, anti-Jewish riots broke out in the town; these were repeated at the beginning of the 16th… Read more »
Guest
@Istvan Today 9:01 am It would take too long to untangle all of the nonsense that you were taught about Hungarian Jews in your Sunday school lessons. But the guts of it is this: When the Sephardi Jews were expelled from Spain and Portugal at the end of the 15th century, a lot of them were professionals, traders and specialists that were more than welcome by the Sultan in Istambul who sorely lacked people with these skills. When the Turks occupied 2/3 of Hungary in the 16th century, these Sephardi Jews came up with the Turkish Army as quartermasters, merchants, suppliers and general camp followers. In due course, thriving Jewish communities emerged in Turkish-occupied Buda and other places, which Ashkenazi Jews also joined from neighbouring Habsburg, Polish and Galician lands. During the liberation of Buda in the 17th century, the Jewish community there was slaughtered en masse, as were all other Jews of Turkish-occupied Hungary who failed to move out with the retreating Turkish armies. By the end of the Turkish occupation, the Kingdom of Hungary was essentially Jew-free, but also depopulated in the central 2/3 of its territory where the Turks held sway for 150 years. The Habsburgs initiated… Read more »
Roderick Beck
Guest

Understandable does not mean it should be condoned. His attitudes are classic backward Hungarian. As a foreigner I have witnessed ugliness first hand.

petofi
Guest

@ambalint

Agree with most of your comment.

But, the US is a melting pot; Canada is a mosaic–those are the underlying philosophies towards immigrants in the two countries.

Guest

@petofi
Today 9:05 am

I agree.

But the key point is that in contrast to the ethnocentric nation states of Europe which traditionally served primarily as countries of emigration, the political nation states of the US and Canada are both countries of immigration by design and purpose.

This is a heck of a difference, and it borders on the insane to attempt to force on the ethnocentric nation states of Europe something that, to date, has only succeed in political nation states, such as the US or Canada.

The gamble that Germany and Sweden has taken with millions of Sunni Muslims, mostly males in their late teens and early twenties, may or may not succeed, as the abject failure of attempts to integrate previous cohorts of Sunni Muslims into the social mainstreams of Britain, France and Germany does not portend much good.

So let’s just hope for a miracle, and hope against hope that this time the integration of this cohort will be a great success, and the second generation that will follow it will be fully and happily integrated into a warmly welcoming German and Swedish society.

Because if not, the whole thing will become an utter f**king disaster of monumental proportions.

Istvan
Guest
Ambalint your short version of the history of Jews in Hungary is largely consistent with what I learned in subsequent years. Being raised in the crucible of American Hungarian anti-communist Catholic hysteria during the 1950s and the early 1960s and not fully understanding that nice old veteran János was actually a former fascist, not just an anti-communist patriot, the theory presented to young children seemed totally plausible. What young Polish Americans, Ukrainian Americans, and even Latvian Americans here in Chicago learned in those days in the ethnic language schools and often at home were their own variants on the overall bad role of Jews in the history of their respective nation states. It was all very subtlety done add a word here or a comment there you know. We are here a melting pot as Petofi notes, but we bring a lot of baggage into that pot with us. To be honest when I have read Jobbik writings and even some Fidesz ideologues writings that Eva has referenced it sounds to my ears very similar to what I was indoctrinated in as a child. Your post was excellent by the way and concise given its historical scope.
Guest

@Istvan
Today 12:55 pm

Thanks Istvan, glad you liked it. :-))

Roderick Beck
Guest

Europe has to accept large immigration and it will not be from developed countries. Population is falling in 60% of local government units in the EU. European social democracy is a pay as you go system and it requires a good ratio of workers to beneficiaries. Hungary already looks terrible with three beneficiaries for each worker, social taxes of 50%, and a steadily declining population. Hungary strikes this American as an inbred culture lacking entrepreneurial spirit and ability to adapt. Hungarians claim that the problem is Islam, but they were terrified of any large scale immigration by people that do not look like them. If a half million Chinese arrived in Hungarian, they would be resented as much as the Syrians, Jews or Gypsies.

Reality Check
Guest

Wrong again. The melting pot model of the US is over-applied. There are many ethnic communities in the US. For a several decades there was a sizeable Hungarian community in New jersey, that had its own church, social activities, weekend schools, etc.

Integration does not require complete assimilated into the host country. My Hungarian family was not completely assimilated.

petofi
Guest

Wrong?
What is wrong? That I maintain that an immigrant’s primary loyalty should be to his new country? And that any cultural, social, clashes should be in favour of that new country…?

Roderick Beck
Guest

That is correct. In fact, America would be a far less interesting and dynamic society if everyone adopted the existing culture. The country changes the immigrant and the immigrant changes the country.

Guest
@Reality Check Today 2:31 pm The great American ‘melting pot’ is just a metaphor or short hand generalization that has never actually meant a physical actuality, and does not mean any kind of a physical actuality today either. There is no heat or pressure or coercion of any kind to join and disappear into the great American melting pot. One can choose to do so or not do so, and many Americans with a non-Anglo immigrant background do in fact happily profess to two or even more parallel ethnic or national identities without any sense of compromising thereby their primary loyalty and primary affection for the United States of America. These choices are in turn fully respected by others and are not regarded as indicative of any kind of dual loyalty. The great American melting pot is in fact an aspirational objective that operates with the force of attraction, like the market economy or capitalism itself. No one is forced to join in, but there are of course significant advantages in doing so. One can choose to remain in a Greek or Arab or Chinese or Hungarian ghetto to even the fifth generation in America, and no one will be… Read more »
Guest

Re: ‘the good old American ‘melting pot’

Been around for awhile. And it’s a great soup that didn’t come without any cost. Every generation which comes must always deal with the result of flight, of being dispossessed of the familiar and of being strange in a strange place. It’s a tough thing to get involved in from all sides.

In the case of Magyarorszag I’ve always thought they would perhaps have a much ‘easier’ time when dealing with the ‘other’ if they didn’t throw bananas at black people at football games or yell curses to Jews in the street or overtly show disdain to gypsies. It’s weird. There seems to be attempts to guide behavior like ‘vote Fidesz’ or ‘vote Jobbik’ advertisements all over the place in the country. But no one seems to think about putting up a sign in the stadium that says, ‘For the benefit of patrons and players alike please keep bananas in pockets. Do not use them as missiles’. Thank you.’

Point: people do as what the society they live in lets them do. What is seeded gets continually sown. Hatred begets hatred.

Guest

The unwillingness of Muslims to be intergrated in a Christian society is matched by the unwillingness of the Christian society to accommodate them. The Muslims want to have the upper hand wherever they are. So do the Christians. Like oil and water they don’t mix.

The world might be a more peaceful place if there were no Muslims and Christians, only rational people. Unfortunately we will not see that situation in the near future.

Guest

Who knows?
In the study on young Hungarians that I linked to, only 22% said they were interested in religion (however also only 29% said they were intereted in politics …).

gdfxx
Guest

There are, however, some major differences. How many Christians killed other Christians lately, because they decided to leave that religion? How many Christians killed members of their family to defend the “honor” of the family? How many Christians (outside the Middle East, specifically Lebanon) killed high numbers of Muslims just because they are Muslims? How many Christians joined Christian terrorist groups elsewhere?

webber
Guest

gdfxx
Your memory is short. You asked
“How many Christians (outside the Middle East, specifically Lebanon) killed high numbers of Muslims just because they are Muslims?”
Does Srebrenica ring a bell? After you’ve googled that, google numbers of Muslims massacred in Bosnia. Then look up Kosovo.

gdfxx
Guest

I disagree that this is relevant. This was a civil war, There were war crimes on both sides. Not that I excuse either side.

webber
Guest

It is relevant. You forgot it. Admit it.
And why, do you think, there was civil war?
Those who murdered unarmed Muslims throughout Bosnia said they were killing “Jihadists,” and “Wahhabists.” Every Muslim male was an “extremist” in their story, without exception, even young boys. And they loved (and still love) comments such as yours above. Visit Belgrade sometime – or don’t. They were beating people just for speaking Hungarian in Vojvodina a couple of years ago. Then they said the Hungarians were “irredentists” (based on some things radicals said in Hungary) and so “deserved” the beating.
If you judge by radicals, you risk becoming radicalized yourself

petofi
Guest

@Webber

You only ‘think’ you know what you’re talking about.
The clash of Serbs (orthodox) and Albanians (muslim) in Kosovo where much more complicated than usually discussed. Sure, Serb paramilitaries went in and killed and stole in the 90s…but you don’t seem to be aware of the fact that Muslims in Kosovo made life miserable for Serbs for 20/30/40 years before that…

Roderick Beck
Guest

The killing was based on religion.

Guest

gdfxx: “How many Christians joined Christian terrorist groups elsewhere?”

During the “troubles” in Northern Ireland Catholics and Protetstants killed each other by the thousands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/troubles

gdfxx
Guest

Same answer as above. By the way, how many Serbs or Kosovars or Bosnians or Irish Christians (of either denomination) went outside of their homeland to murder others? But as far as I know, large numbers of Muslims from other parts of the “ummah” joined their Muslim brothers in the fighting in the former Yugoslavia. As they did in Afghanistan, when fighting the Russians. As they are doing anywhere else where Muslims fight non-Muslims.

webber
Guest

“How many…. went outside of their homeland to murder others?”
Irish Christians regularly set off bombs in London, and elsewhere in England – not in Ireland, in England. They murdered innocent English people for no reason other than that they were English – pub bombings were a favorite.
Really, your knowledge of European history is abysmal.

webber
Guest

This Wikipedia entry mentions just terrorist attacks in London alone – there were plenty elsewhere. If you count, I believe you’ll find the majority were committed by Christians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London
In the US, look into Timothy McVeigh. Then look into people with associated ideologies.
Also look into how many people were murdered by the KKK.
Christians, all, each and every one.

webber
Guest

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petofi
Guest

You’re ridiculous, webber. McVeigh
was a right-wing screwball. Of 400 million, you’re bound to have a few, like the guy who went up into the tower in Texas and shot people. How does that compare with world-wide muslim terrorism?
Get a grip on yourself…

gdfxx
Guest

Common now, the civil war in Ireland was considered war for freedom by the Catholic part. And the war of independence was against England. Northern Ireland is part of the UK, which is considered to be an occupier by many Irish.

petofi
Guest

@webber

Your comparison does not hold water: there’s a huge difference ‘in degree’–bombings and deaths in London come nowhere near what the muslims have done in many different places.

Reality Check
Guest
gdfxx
Guest

Right, this site describes 10 terror attacks in 30 years. Most of them were committed by anti-abortionists. Just count how many terror attacks by Muslim extremists occurred in the first three months of this year. And then compare them to the ones in the article. By the way, I would not use this website for arguments in a normal debate…

webber
Guest

Now you want to accept terrorists’ definitions of right and wrong?
The article is on terror attacks in London, alone. You are mentioning terror attacks throughout the world. No -comparison. Count up terror attacks carried out over time if you like, everywhere. Red Brigades. ETA. Ku Klux Klan (in my view a terrorist organization). There have been a lot.
Just FYI: The majority in N. Ireland is Protestant – c. 768,000 vs. c. 678,500 Catholics. Guess where the majority want to live? In Catholic Ireland, where abortion is banned on religious grounds, or in the UK? What do you think?

Roderick Beck
Guest

Look at how Christian Europe slaughtered and persecuted the Jews. Violence goes through cycles. In the tone on this board I can easily imagine Christian Europe committing atrocities just like in the past. European culture is still based on ethnic identity and distrust is pervasive.

Reality Check
Guest
webber
Guest

And during the Bosnian war not a few “Christians” traveled from all over the world to kill “Muslim extremists.” In the following – an excerpt from Serbian Epics by Pavel Pawlikowski – you can see one of them, the Russian author Eduard Limonov, shooting a heavy machine gun at Sarajevo (from min. 4:57)

gdfxx
Guest

The Serbs and Russians consider themselves cousins. They rush to each others’ help. How many others were there? And again, this was a civil war. Those who committed war crimes (like Karadzic) were tried and if proven guilty, convicted.

webber
Guest

So, you accept my point.
Christians murder Christians even today, just because they are of a different denomination or different ethnic or linguistic group.
There weren’t just Russians in Bosnia. For example, there were some Greek mercenaries at Srebrenica.
There were a few Hungarians who volunteered for Croatia (Eduardo – remember him?- going by his memoirs, he committed war crimes, and the Serbs had an international arrest warrant out on him before he died) A Swede was convicted of committing war crimes when he fought on the Croatian side. He murdered defenseless Serbian civilians -merely because they were Serbs
Limonov was an extreme example of an intellectual who took part – that’s the only reason I included him. People went there to shoot at civilians, whom they called “Jihadists.”
I don’t even understand why you mention war crimes trials, such as that of Seselj, the terrorizer of Hungarians in Vojvodina who was recently acquitted.
Our defense forces sometimes kill Muslim terrorists, you know (I have no problem with that, before you get the wrong impression).

Roderick Beck
Guest

It was a conflict on religious identity. Stop waffling.

gdfxx
Guest

Central African Republic, yes, its government used to be the best friend of the Romanian Ceausescu regime. The country was under the worst tyranny for decades. Their president used to eat the livers of his political enemies.

By the way, the article says that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Why don’t they describe the iceberg then?

webber
Guest

When anyone describes the position, shape and enormous size of the iceberg of “Christian” extremists, you lot on the Muslim-abhorring Titanic just keep saying it’s irrelevant and carry on full steam ahead.

Robogirl
Guest

Konrad simply went crazy. He is way to frail to have any idea about the realities of being an immigrant in today’s world. He is out of touch and he has no valuable insights. I’m not sure we should waste any time on him.

Guest

@Robogirl
Today 7:20 am

You have every right to be ideologically opposed to Konrad, but just because you are ideologically opposed to his stance, that does not mean that he is crazy.

And tell me, have you got any idea about the realities of being a Muslim immigrant in Europe today, semi-literate in your own language, without knowledge of the local European language or understanding the local ways, without money, without a home and without family, and exposed to the open hostility of many of the locals?

Because if you haven’t got a clue, then really, you should not waste your valuable time making vacuous comments on this.

petofi
Guest

@Robogirl

Your comment is stupid, and toxic.
Try and understand your betters before you presume to comment…

Member

I not think he is crazy but he is out of touch, just like Imre Kertesz became confused.

Latefor
Guest

Eva, Imre Kertesz died last week.

Member

I know that: “Kertesz became”, and Eva was referring to Konrad who is still alive with “He is terribly frail and perhaps not so sharp as before”.

Guest
After reading all this I get the impression Konrad, as a literary intellectual, has done a reformulation in his thinking of Magyarorszag’s relationship to the concept of democratic government and its propositions. It would appear his earlier optimism about his country’s path in Central Europe and the world has succumbed to border/cultural realities where he believes East is East and West is West and will never meet at all in Magyarorszag. Ironic that he usually had a moral squint on the political questions he posed. He did say at one time ‘our humanity is our greatest capital’. This was said in August ’89 during the partial opening of the Hungarian-Austrian border. As we know before that Magyarorszag was behind a rusted and decrepit ‘curtain’. People once again there could ‘go back and forth as they please’. Time and tide apparently change in the minds of some writer/intellectuals when it comes to borders and movement of masses of people. Arguing ‘basic rights’ for only particular ethnic groups just makes it difficult to reconcile Konrad’s ostensible belief in democratic government where ‘rights’ are for all. Konrad noted in ‘The Melancholy of Rebirth’ that he thought a ‘good Hungarian was someone who managed… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Orban’s Saudi connection.

Ghaith Pharaon —> [lots of money] —–> Orban’s son-in-law

http://valasz.hu/itthon/exkluziv-fehergalleros-arab-kezdett-felvasarlasba-magyarorszagon-117994

“Pharaon was indicted for fraud charges by the U.S. government in 1991 for his alleged role in the mammoth collapse of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International. A large shareholder of BCCI, Pharaon was accused of being a frontman for unlawful purchases of American banks. ”

http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/27/legal-crime-fbi-biz-cz_nv_0827fugitives.html

Orban’s Saudi benefactor might also have connections to Islamic terrorism.

Side effect of the deal: all of the trees were cut on Jozsef nador square, in downtown Budapest a month ago.

comment image

a few days earlier:

http://hvg.hu/cegauto/20160312_Eltuntek_a_fak_a_Jozsef_Nador_terrol

Speaking of banks: the National Bank MNB sold the bank MKB to a company which was not even registered at the time of sale:

http://magyarnarancs.hu/belpol/gyanus-az-mkb-eladasa-egy-csupan-25-millio-forintos-tokeju-tarsasag-vinne-a-bankot-98849

http://444.hu/2016/04/05/ujabb-extrem-gyanus-jelek-kerultek-elo-az-mkb-rejtelyes-vasarloirol

http://444.hu/2016/04/06/mnb-az-mkb-bank-mar-korabban-elvesztette-kozvagyon-jelleget

tappanch
Guest

“Revisiting Ghaith Pharaon’s ties to Bin Laden”
published on March 28, 2013

https://moneyjihad.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/revisiting-ghaith-pharaons-ties-to-bin-laden/

Member

http://www.godhatesfags.com

Throwl this homepage for information of the ‘good Christian faith’.

spectator
Guest
A pity that György Konrád joined to this line as well. I was sad when Imre Kertész made his late statements, too. And I’m afraid that it’s in the package of quite a few more. What am I talking about? When someone, even the bright and gifted around the last part of the journey decide that the religion the only way to salvation. Otherwise this is the true reason behind this conflict. (In my opinion, don’t forget the small print!) Even here, many of our fellow contributors express their concern regarding the possible advancement of a religion, another as theirs. Disguised, of course like cultural differences and integration difficulties or whatever, but deep down we are still (21st century, anyone?) talking about differences of belief, the different ways to worship God, and just why is one preferable to the other. Be honest, will you? Easy to me, I know, because I’m a nonbeliever, so emotionally free, so to speak. Even worse, I’m a liberal person, so from my side anyone can worship anyone — yes, even Viktor Orbán — as long as it isn’t aimed AGAINST anyone else. Back to basics: The demand for “integration”, like people should suddenly abandon… Read more »
Guest

Spectator, thanks a lot for your words!
I’ve been thinking on writing something similar – but you nailed it!

I’m sure at least about Germany:
We will manage to “integrate (most of …) the refugees/immigrants – as we’ve did several times after WW2:
The people from the East (yes they spoke German, but …), the Gastarbeiter from the South, the Russians …

Yes we can!

spectator
Guest

Thanks Wolfi — whatever number you are 🙂

The kind of integration Germany involved in demands will, dedication, concept, — and foremost respect of the other Human Being.

Yes, it needs money as well, but then again, there isn’t that many stadiums having built recently, not to mention that the integration creates jobs, and jobs create income to the state.

Before you start with language, education and such, I’m talking about the jobs of the administrators, teachers, clerks, whoever needed to handle all of this seamlessly, or at least as smooth as possible.
Germans, of course, natives or/and nationalised.

It’s an opportunity, beside being human duty.
It needs — beside empathy — some brainpower too.

Oh, well…

Guest
You know I would agree ‘religion’ is a culprit in the conflict we see. It is one of many ‘true reasons’ all swirling in a pot. It’s too bad Magyarorszag is having problems with ‘integration’. I can understand in a way if they look at us and our tough experience. Who knows where we would be without Lincoln? He at least started the kindling for equal rights for those who were continually disenfranchised in the society and around the globe. But in Magyarorszag it will be difficult if not impossible since there is apparently no wish to enter in that sphere. Hungarians indeed want to walk the world ‘alone’. I’d say if Magyarorszag continues with the attitudes of ‘disenfranchisement’ they will never never be at rest. The arteries of their society will clog up and block them for developing the humanity they absolutely need to have a meaningful existence. Konrad could wake Havel up. He may at least get some ideas to mull and talk with him about the role of human beings in contributing and constructing a viable society. Konrad unfortunately looks as if he’s thrown in the towel. Perhaps he thinks the effort will be prodigious and dangerous.… Read more »
Guest

@wolfi7777
Today 3:34 pm

I sincerely hope so!

But the German people will have to do a heck of a lot better this time around than with their Turkish and Kurdish Gastarbeiter over the past half a century, most of whom never integrated in any way, shape or form into mainstream German society.

It is one thing to successfully and readily integrate ethnic Germans from East Prussia, the Sudetenland, the Balkans and even Russia. It is another thing altogether to attempt to integrate Sunni Muslims from the Middle East, Central Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa, mostly young males in their late teens and early twenties, people who might be barely literate in even their own languages.

On the nature of integration, please see my response to Spectator in the post above.

I have the greatest admiration, affection and respect for Frau Merkel, as well as for the German people as a whole for having taken on so enormously generously this monumental gamble with millions of young Sunni Muslims, and I fervently hope that the current efforts of the German people will indeed yield magnificient results two or three decades down the track.

Guest
@spectator Today 3:20 pm We have an identical outlook on life and think very much alike. :-))) But I don’t think that late life political opinion changes by Kertesz or Konrad are necessarily the result of falling into some kind of religious trap. Maybe they just simply changed their minds in light of some newly emergent or previously unrecognized or disregarded concrete facts of life that came within their purview only of late. As to successful integration into the social mainstream of a country of immigration, I believe that this is neither an absolute nor a one-way street. First, the immigrant has to really want to integrate and in turn and at the same time mainstream society has to really want to integrate that immigrant, with both sides doing their level best to achieve this goal as quickly as is just humanly possible. Second, the issue of giving up one’s original identity in favour of another, in order to somehow fit in to mainstream society, should not even arise. The whole idea of integration is for both these identities to happily and productively coexist within the immigrant and at the same time both to be totally respected by the mainstream… Read more »
webber
Guest

It seems that György Konrád is an example of a failure to integrate into German society. A pity.

Guest

@webber
Today 4:29 pm

Was it Konrád’s actual intention to integrate into German society and he failed to do so, or is that just a random supposition on your part?

And if so, does the same random supposition also apply to Kertész and Nádas too?

Guest

Mike, please stop generalising!
I know many Turks (and also Yugoslavs, Greeks, Italians etc …) which integrated well in Germany – Cem Özdemir, the head of our Green party being the most obvious example.
And I also know a lot of ethnic Germans which have problems with the 21st Century!
PS:
I find these “complaints” of yours really strange – coming from some member of a group that has seen a lot of discrimination and persecution and had to flee so often from their home countries.

Guest

@wolfi7777
Today 6:37 am

In my books, ‘most’ does not equal to ‘all,’ and a generalization by definition refers to an ‘all,’ otherwise it is not a generalization. My information is that of the roughly two and a half million Turks and Kurds in Germany, about a third have successfully integrated into mainstream German society, which means most did not. The question is whether this is a fact or not. If not, I am of course perfectly happy to take back the offending statement in my post and ask you to disregard it. I have absolutely no hang-ups about having to be right.

May I add, though, that arguing, as you do, a general principle from one or more particular examples cannot a valid case make. Thus, the fact that Cem Özdemir and a whole bunch of other Turks, Yugoslavs, Greeks, Italians, etc. have integrated well in Germany does not as yet mean at all that THEREFORE all or even most Turks and Kurds in Germany have integrated well (and by the way, the Italians, Greeks etc. that you also mention do not really have anything to do with the price of rice in this particular conversation).

gdfxx
Guest

I think that the discussion about which religion is better or worse makes no sense. The topic was the Islamic terror today (today meaning the past few years) and whether being fearful of it is justified or not. When I tried to show that Islamic extremists’ terror is overwhelming nowadays, I was shown Irish, Serb and other religious extremists example.

I suggest that you take a look at the following Wikipedia page and try to add up the number of victim of jihadist terrorists in the near past, worldwide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

Guest

gdfxx: ” When I tried to show that Islamic extremists’ terror is overwhelming nowadays, I was shown Irish, Serb and other religious extremists example.”

We all know that Islamic extremists’ terror is overwhelmimg at present. No need to be told.

If you call Islamic extremists what they are shouldn’t you also call Cristian extremists what they are and not “religious extremists”.

You might obtain a more balanced view if you studied the examples of Christian terrorism carefully in stead of making exceptions of them.

gdfxx
Guest

I am calling Islamic extremists Islamic because they commit their terror acts based on their religion (or their own interpretation of their religion). I am not very much interested in going back in history to find other terror events based on Christianity, Judaism or other religions. We live today.

Paul Zador
Guest

Perhaps, people should read the actual article before making up their minds about what they think about it. Here is my transation of its last paragpraph. The last sentence is, perhps, the most revealing about Konrad’s attitude. (A trip to the Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv, could also help understand how things tend to change over time.)

I consider it natural that in large cities many types of people can live side-by-side as good neighbors. Such communal life has good periods that we fondly recall later, but migration is a pulsating process: sometimes notions of fraternity gain the upper hand followed by periods drier in humanity; but we have no reason to assume that an extended ice age is in the offing. The crisis can’t be avoided without losses, irresponsible politicians and governments will loose power, but that is no more terrible than the drowning of hundreds of children —- something that already had happened.

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