The Veritas Institute’s legends and myths about the Hungarian Holocaust

Let’s return to history today for at least two reasons. The first is that as time goes by it is becoming increasingly apparent that the Orbán government, by setting up a number of historical institutes, is trying to create “an alternative history” of modern Hungary between 1867 and 1989. These are the years whose historical interpretation still has political relevance. It is the history of these 120 years that the Orbán government wants to rewrite with the assistance of about 20 historians willing to do the job. This is a much more serious threat than most people realize. The second reason for returning to Sándor Szakály’s interview with The Budapest Beacon is that I could cover only one small segment of the conversation, about the “first anti-Jewish law,” as Mária M. Kovács, author of a book on the numerus clausus of 1920, called it. But Szakály’s other responses, all related to Jewish-Hungarian history and the Holocaust, also tell a lot about the mindset of these historical revisionists.

A large portion of Szakály’s apologia of the Horthy regime’s Jewish policies dealt with how much and when Miklós Horthy and his entourage knew about the “final solution.” Here he was arguing against László Karsai’s long-held view, supported by strong documentary evidence, that members of the Hungarian government knew about the death camps as early as the fall of 1942.

Karsai, in a lengthy article that appeared in the March 2007 issue of Beszélő (Interlocuter), dissected the most common “legends and myths” about Miklós Horthy’s tenure as governor of Hungary. A special section was devoted to his activities during 1944. One common legend is that Horthy’s daughter-in-law, Mrs. István Horthy née Countess Ilona Edelsheim Gyulai, gave him the so-called Auschwitz Reports, a collection of eyewitness accounts of two Jewish inmates from Slovakia who had managed to escape, only on July 3. Whereupon, the legend continues, he immediately called Colonel Ferenc Koszorús, a trusted officer, to the capital. His task was to expel the gendarmerie from Budapest in order to avert the deportation of the city’s Jewish population.

The Veritas Institute’s mission is to perpetuate these myths and legends. Szakály takes it for granted that Ilona Horthy’s information about the events of July 3, which she wrote about in her memoirs published in 2001, almost sixty years later, is accurate despite documentary evidence to the contrary. Szakály also doubts Karsai’s interpretation that Horthy intended only to suspend the deportations, not to end them. Szakály will believe Karsai on that score only if his fellow historian can produce “a document with Horthy’s signature which states that the governor wants to begin the deportations anew in August.” A typical demand from the positivist Szakály, who at the same time admits that “certain ‘promises’ were given [to the Germans] by Horthy, Döme Sztójay, and Andor Jaross.”

What documents does László Karsai cite in support of his thesis that important members of the government knew about the German extermination of Jews in Germany and in German-occupied territories? The first is a conversation between Döme Sztójay, the anti-Semitic Hungarian minister to Berlin, and György Ottlik, editor-in-chief of Pester Lloyd, in August 1942, during which Sztójay admitted that sending Hungarian Jews to Germany “doesn’t mean deportation but extermination.” Ottlik immediately reported this intelligence to Prime Minister Miklós Kállay. A few months later Sztójay told a German diplomat that Kállay “is somewhat worried about sending Hungarian Jews to Germany because he fears that ‘their continued existence’ is not assured.” So, Kállay got the message. In the same year the ministry of interior also received information through detectives about Germans starving Jews to death. But if that isn’t sufficient to convince Szakály, there is direct proof that Horthy knew about the death camps way before July-August 1944. The revelation is contained in the draft of a letter by Horthy to Hitler—actually prepared by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs—dated May 7, 1943. One of the sentences in the letter read: “A further reproach of Your Excellency was that the [Hungarian] government has failed to take as far-reaching an action in the extirpation of the Jews as Germany had taken, or as would appear desirable in other countries.” (The Confidential Papers of Admiral Horthy, p. 255) This sentence was subsequently deleted from the final version.

Mrs. István Horthy, née Ilona Edelsheim Gyulai in1942

Mrs. István Horthy, née Ilona Edelsheim Gyulai in 1942

Ignoring this evidence, Szakály in his interview insists that “neither the great majority of the Jewry nor the Hungarians knew what was happening with the deportees,” even though the Auschwitz Reports reached Budapest in April of 1944.

And what  evidence does his advance for his position? Not even the Veritas apologists can base their defense of Horthy on his memoirs (1957). Horthy’s  short description of events between March and October 1944 is rife with   mistakes and/or willful distortions. He claims that “not before August did secret information reach me about the truth about these extermination camps. It was [Lajos] Csatay, the Minister of War, who raised the matter at a Cabinet meeting” (p. 219).

But Szakály accepts the account of Horthy’s daughter-in-law, the widow of István Horthy, according to whom it was her “informant,” Sándor Török, the representative of the Christian Jews’ Association, who gave her the Auschwitz Reports on July 3. Three days later, she noted, on July 6, Horthy stopped the transports heading to Germany (Ilona Edelsheim Gyulai, Becsület és kötelesség, p. 263).

Sándor Török (1904-1985)

Sándor Török (1904-1985)

It seems that Ilona Horthy collected information for her memoirs from an ordinary appointment book, with only a few notations. She came to the conclusion that the crucial day had to be July 3 because she had underlined that day. My reaction upon reading the passage was the same as Karsai’s. On the basis of an underlined date, which might signify anything, one cannot recreate events with any certainty. In any case, she is not an objective observer. In her book she tries to show her father-in-law in the best possible light. For example, just as Horthy wants us to believe that he “lacked the means to check or thwart the joint action of the Germans and the Ministry for Home Affairs,” Ilona Horthy portrays Miklós Horthy as completely isolated. In her description he knows nothing about what’s going on. She writes that he tried to prevent the transports from leaving, but he could do nothing because they left in secret. That’s not how I remember it. So, there are many reasons not to use her as a reliable source.

Sándor Török, the man who delivered the Auschwitz Reports to Ilona Horthy, was already a well-known writer at the time who had published nine books by 1940. Before he died in Budapest in 1985, he wrote at least two books which contained autobiographical details from 1944-1945. I wouldn’t mind reading them.

And, a footnote, János Lázár, while insisting that he should not get involved in a historical debate, suggested that one day “the two sides will reach consensus on these issues.” Sure, they will meet half way. What a total misunderstanding of what history is all about.

July 2, 2016
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Member
Hungarians were always been exposed to a distorted history, full of lies and exaggerations about their non-existing achievements. Part of the reason for the almost total lack of major scientific, artistic, technological successes in the last 70 years is this false view of themselves. Without taking away any credit for the great composers, musicians and artist of these decades, the fact is, that other countries have them also, and many of them in much greater numbers. Example: Hungarians are very proud of Kodaly and Bartók. Rightfully so. However we don’t have to go far, just next door to Austria. They can be proud of Mozart, Schubert, Mahler, Brahms, Haydn, the whole Strauss family, etc., etc. With all due respect, a lot more people are familiar with the name and recognize the music of Mozart and Strauss, than Bartok and Kodaly. Hungarians want to live is a self-made illusion, a pleasantly colorized version of their past and perhaps this is their defensive mechanism, the truth is too painful and difficult for them to handle. Those, who move away from Hungary to live somewhere else for the rest of their lives will slowly learn the truth and generally it is an eye… Read more »
Member
You can easily learn a less childish history by reading (even Wikipedia suffices). True, Hungarian popular narratives even about pre-1867 history are completely distorted. We can start with Stephen I, who became king with support from a foreign power through a bloody coup, look at the glorious “liberation” of Buda in 1686 accompanied by a massacre of mostly civilian muslims and ottomans that was remarkably cruel even for contemporary standards, or recognize that the revered Count Ferenc Rákóczi II was a foreign agent paid by the French king to wreak havoc. And so we lament about Trianon (imagine it not happening but rather a civil war breaking out after WW2 like post-Yugoslavia), and about the Holocaust that the evil Nazis carried out despite our best intentions. The main priority of education in Hungary as spelled out in the National Basic Curriculum is (1) patriotism, (2) knowledge, in this order. The colorful fairy tales about Hungary’s past are now part of the Constitution (the infamous Preamble), and most Hungarians are very proud of their scientists’ great discoveries abroad (whom their countrymen would have happily murdered them if they had stayed). Half-educated arrogant idiots like Sándor Szakály and Mária Schmidt are in… Read more »
Guest

grow up and start looking at the truths about our traumatic past (not unlike any other nation’s traumatic past btw).

Very well said!
As a German I’m so glad that we (at least most uf us -I hope) did this – though of course we also have our problems like AfD, Pegida etc.

Guest

Re: ‘…the truth is difficult to handle’

By now most have known that Mr. Wiesel has died. ‘A-7713’ no doubt was one of those individuals who after his experience made his life’s work the ‘problem of evil’. No doubt his analyses were the thorn in the side to apologists of Nazi ideology and Magyar behavior during the wars of the 20th when it came to the Jewish question. He too was aware of the ‘whitewashing’ of history. From the looks of it that state of affairs can’t be stopped but like Wiesel’s efforts it can and must be met head on.

A country must know a past built on truths. If not everything which follows hinges on actions fomented and understood through mendaciousness. With that how can life in society then be lived under the circumstances?

About Austrian culture
Guest
About Austrian culture
The economic decline of the city during the Ottoman conquest characterized by the stagnation of population—the population of Buda was not larger in 1686 than it was two centuries earlier in the 15th century.[18] The Ottomans allowed the Hungarian royal palace to fall into ruins.[19] The amortized palace was later transformed into a gunpowder storage and magazine by the Ottomans,[20] which caused its detonation during the siege in 1686. The original Christian Hungarian population didn’t feel secure during the Ottoman conquest; their numbers significantly shrank over the next decades due to their fleeing to Habsburg-ruled Royal Hungary. Jewish and Gypsy immigrants became dominant during Ottoman rule.[21] Ethnic changes during the Ottoman rule As a consequence of the 150 years of constant warfare between the Christian states and Ottomans, population growth was stunted, and the network of ethnic Hungarian medieval settlements, with their urbanized bourgeois inhabitants, perished. The ethnic composition of the territory that had been part of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary was fundamentally changed through deportations and massacres, so that the number of ethnic Hungarians in existence at the end of the Ottoman period was substantially diminished.[11] In 1686, two years after the unsuccessful siege of Buda, a renewed… Read more »
Observer
Guest

Spot on.
My eye opening attempts are often met with open hostility and always with personal remarks: e g. not being a Hungarian, one can not understand…
On “the most tragic past” myth, they don’t know anything about Poland’s tragic past.
Dvorak, Smetana, Suk, Janacek, Hummel don’t mean much compared to Barton and Kodaly..
But the winner is “the times of adventure” (kalandozások kora) a blatant euphemism for the decades of the murderous pillaging raids by mounted Hungarians tribes across Europe in the 10th century. The second Lechfeld defeat at the hand of German forces put an end to “this vermin”.

Crant
Guest

Yes, calling people “vermin” will no doubt win many over. I’ve never met Hungarians longing for raids across Europe – you must spend time in entirely different circles. Every country has a tragic history – depends on what you focus on – why is Poland’s more tragic? What about Russia? Or would you liked to have lived in the Ukraine in the 30s? It’s also normal that people focus only on their own suffering. People who do not are usually the unbalanced types like this girl in Germany who did not report the ethnicity of her rapists because she was afraid that that would cause anti-immigrant hysteria (assuming she was raped at all; at that level of mental imbalance, anything is possible).

Observer
Guest

@crant
The term “vermin” was used in the cronicles, I used it to convey how hated were the marauding Hungarians. Actually almost a quarter of the Hungarians killed we’re at the hands of the peasants who encountered them fleeing.
Objectively, countries/regions have different “histories” at different times, good or bad. Feeling are OK, but some honesty is due. Untrue claims and falsifications, by the Hungarians in this case, should be debunked. See French re. the revolution or Vichy, Americans re. slavery, Indians, etc, Germans re. WWII, See?

About Austrian culture
Guest
About Austrian culture

Austria contributed a lot in classical music, to tell the truth it was the ONLY branch of art where Austrian culture is noticeable .

Member

Otto Preminger, Hedy Lamarr, Stefan Zweig, Max Reinhardt, Paul Muni, Fritz Lang, Klaus Maria Brandauer, Oscar Werner, Christoph Waltz, Herbert von Karajan, Franz von Suppé, etc. But we also know people; Christian Doppler (Scientist), Ferdinand Porsche (Engineer Superb), Joy Adamson (Animal activist), Gregor Mendel (scientist) Sigmund Freud (Psychiatrist), Simon Wiesenthal (activist), Kurt Waldheim (Diplomat), Wolfgang Pauli (Scientist) etc., etc.

Guest

It’s no use trying to reason with the troll – the creature wrote the same idiocies before under different names, a typical coward!
PS:
You forgot Kurt Gödel – who was big friends in the USA with von Neumann and Einstein and …

Member

wolfi7777: Kurt Gödel was born in 1906 Brno, Austria-Hungary, ma Czech Republic. Yes he can be considered Austrian, like Gustav Mahler, also born in Kaliště, Czech Republic or even as Ludwig von Beethoven who was born in Bonn, Germany, but spent most of his productive years living among the Austrian composers in Vienna, because he disliked Germany.

Guest

Yes, Gyula, in those days Vienna was almost the center of Europe, attracting so many people – and Budapest did too!

It must have been fantastic times – did you ever read the articles or plays of Karl Kraus?
Especially “The last days of mankind” is a fantastic work!
And he also was a Jew born in what now is the Czech Republic …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Kraus_%28writer%29

Member

Thank you for the link I will read the article and what you suggested. I will be glad to expand discussions on some subjects here on this forum, but today I am in a jam, I have to get some work done by no later than 3:00 PM. Thanks for the patience.

Eliezer M. Rabinovich
Guest
I have already tired to discuss these numerous lies that the Hungarian left is continuing to perpetrate about those events. I have written numerous articles in English and Russian (including a book in Russian recently purchased by the National Library in Budapest); some of my articles were translated into Hungarian by my Hungarian friends (one of them – Dr. Gecse Géza). Professors László Karsai and Krisztian Ungvary, whom I widely quoted, are rather left-wing politicians than honest historians who distort the facts well-known to them. Dr. Balogh writes: “Ilona Horthy’s information about the events of July 3, which she wrote about in her memoirs published in 2001, almost sixty years later…” Does not Dr. Balogh know that Ms. Ilona wrote the same information in her then unpublished letter to the Editor on July 31, 1966? It was published as one of the appendixes by Prof. Andrew L. Simon, an editor of the 2000 edition of Horthy’s memoirs. 200-250 thsd. Jews remained alive due to Horthy’s actions on July 4-7, 1944, – probably a million together with their present-day descendants. Nobody else saved as many. It is a great unforgivable sin to reject the clear evidence and to continue to deny… Read more »
webber
Guest

FYI: Ungvary is a conservative Catholic, who has a large crucifix on the wall of his office.

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

webber It is useless to tell E.M. Rabinovich that Ungváry is a conservative catholic or that Eva Balogh had to leave Hungary because of her participation in revolutionary activities in 1956. Any one who does not agree with his crude history falsification is belonging to the “ultra-left”.
Rabinovich is not a historian and as far as Hungarian history is concerned he is an ignoramus. (He does not even know how to write the Name of Béla Kun.)
Does Rabinovich know enough Hungarian to read, what Karsai and Ungváry have written?

Roderick S. Beck
Guest

He or she publishes under a Jewish sounding names as part of a program of disinformation.

petofi
Guest

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a collection of KGB-ers from the vaunted ‘basement brigate’…

Member

I you click on Eliezer M. Rabinovich you are warned by the browser that it is a phishing site… Here is the image for “Элиэзер М. Рабинович”
comment image

gdfxx
Guest

Horthy was a great hero. He saved all the Jews of Hungary. He founded the Vitez-rend, where most members were Jews. He actually was Jewish. Maybe even a rabbi…

And then Eliezer M. Rabinovich wakes up because his hand touched the content of his chamber pot.

petofi
Guest

-marvelous!

Member

Gross exaggeration!
Horthy was a hero in the Battle of Otranto and on his ship the Novara. He was NOT a hero as a Governor and/or politician, but there were lot worse Hungarian politicians in his time, before and especially after him.
As far as saving the Jews for a period of time, it was from his basic humanity and fairness, which was strong and overcame his anti-Semitism.
However there were times, when he just looked the other way, and did not want to acknowledge terrible deeds, because it bothered his value system, yet he deemed necessary. Such was the White Terror in Hungary. He is fully responsible for the tortures, killings that happened during this tragic event.

webber
Guest

sarcasm, Gyula – gdfxx gave a brilliant example of it.

Member

I understand, but believe me, there are lots of people, who really think Horthy was a good Governor and the Horthy era was mostly good times and he saved hundreds of thousands of jews. Then there are many people who really think Horthy was a hero. I simply said my opinion what kind of a hero he was, because there was a part of his life that is beyond criticism, such as working for Franz Josef and being a Naval Officer, a captain of a warship in the Austro-Hungarian Navy, where he was seriously wounded and highly decorated.

Guest

With all due respect, this sort of comment does not advance any kind of argument. It is in a garbled, incomprehensible and highly emotional style so typical of uneducated, irrational, fanatical to the point of hysteria, Orbán idolaters.

I actually cannot understand any of it (even though English is my native tongue), and it seems to be nothing more than an outpouring of hatred mixed with ignorance. So like the Nazis of WWII, Hitler et al.

Guest

Eliezer, give me the names of your descendents and I’ll “save” one third of them – I’ll kill only the other two thirds!
Won’t you love me then and adore me?
You are are crazy lunatic!

Guest
wolfi</b you keep peddling this line – looking up the wrong end of the historical telescope. Having recently realised that I am an historian you mustn't doubt my version of events – they have the authority of er… well enough of that I'll fill you in later. The Numerous Clauses (!) ensured that poorer students could have a university education – even if it was at the expense of Hungarian Jews who had an equal right to attend. This was the Hungarian equivalent of Aryanism – to create a super-race of pure Magyars. What followed was an extension of this ideal to speed things up a bit. By getting the Gendarmerie to transfer the Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz the problem nearly disappeared – and redistribution of wealth gave the poorer Hungarians a better standard of living. In fact a much better standard of living with the redistributed apartments. Horthy cleared off to Portugal and he used to visit a Taverna that he called his "favourite little kocsma" where he used to confide in the proprietor about one day being called back to enter BP triumphantly on his horse. But the call never came – ungrateful lot. He was ever resentful… Read more »
Guest

Apologies to bambi my bold messed up!

Roderick S. Beck
Guest

Really? So Horthy who enacted legalized discrimination against Hungarian Jews in 1921 and declared himself an antisemite saved 1 million Jews? Sounds pretty implausible. And when did Horthy repudiate his earlier life as an antisemite devoted to eradicating Jewish life in Hungary? You are a crock of shit.

Observer
Guest

@e. rabinovich aka whoever
Is a standard fidesz lying toad and ignoramus: e. g.
Bulgaria, a German Allie , saved ALL the Jews. None was shipped abroad nor killed.
Smthg similar took place in occupied Denmark, where the Danes obstructed the German efforts and actively hid and helped the Jews escape to Sweden.
Many highly placed officials knew about the death camps , about their purpose: already in August1943 the Bulgarian king (a son of a German prince), a major figure in the local politics, refused Hitler’s request in a face to face meeting despite latter’s rage. ( The king died a week later, but the regency and the following goverments stuck to this position).
Many lesser officials, incl. one of Hitler’s last secretaries, confessed that “everyone who wanted to know, knew it”, The current Hungarian fascists and their apologists don’t want even the others to know how ugly their kind of regimes were, hence the falsification efforts of Szakály, Schmidt & co.

Guest

Yes, everybody who wanted to know, “could have known” – but many just didn’t want to know, not only in Hungary and not only regarding the Jews but also all the other groups of people who were “unworthy to live” in the Nazis’ view!

And we’ve had many a discusion here already about the way Horthy’s (and other Hungarians’) antisemitism grew stronger until the “final solution” was in sight.

So we should watch again for the first signs of similar ideas against Jews and/or other people – always be prepared!

Eliezer M. Rabinovich
Guest
> already in August1943 the Bulgarian king (a son of a German prince), a major figure in the local politics, refused Hitler’s request in a face to face meeting despite latter’s rage. ( The king died a week later, … It is not correct that the King refused the meeting. From the article about hime in Wiki, “Boris III of Bulgaria”: “Bulgaria’s opposition came to a head at this last official meeting between Hitler and King Boris III in August 1943. Reports of the meeting indicate that Hitler was furious at the King for refusing to join the war against the USSR and to deport the Jews within his kingdom.[10] At the end of the meeting, it was agreed that “the Bulgarian Jews were not to be deported for King Boris had insisted that the Jews were needed for various laboring tasks including road maintenance.” This act of bravery displayed by King Boris saved all 50,000 Jews of Bulgaria. Two weeks later on 28 August 1943, King Boris III died, aged 49.” End of the quote. It is quite possible though not proved that the King was poisoned. Horthy and Kallay had showed the same courage until the direct occupation… Read more »
Observer
Guest

@rabinovich

” It is not correct that the King refused the meeting ” Nobody claimed so, read carefully.

Tnx for the detailed quotation, which is enlightening.

Horthy did preside over the process where “Between May 14 and July 9, 1944, that is during less than two months, 434,351 persons were deported from Hungary on 147 trains.”
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hungholo.html

After that Horthy hesitated, no wonder, with the Soviet army approaching from the east and the Allies successful landing on the west. Then he promised to continue the deportation in August, but after Romania switched sides on August 23 he changed his mind again and refused further deportations.
Could have decided worse, but hardly worth a praise.

Member

You lost me once you stated “200-250,000 jews were alive because of Horthy’s actions”. You come on here claiming to be the almighty truth to us “radical left” and you start out with a blatant lie! There were less than 125,000 spared from Budapest and you aim to convince us by exaggerating the number by doubling it? I am afraid your lousy book isn’t worth the paper it is printed on. Wouldn’t even use it for toilet paper!

Observer
Guest

@borbe2016

You smelled the rat too, I see.

ER also throws in the ridiculous figure of a million “saved”, counted together with the estimated descendants 60 years later !! (by the same calculation method the Hungarian state killed 3.6 million people).

He replies to my post starting with “It is not correct .. ” re something not found in my post at all and then elaborates on what I wrote in a way to look like a substantiated denial.

ER is a cheap fraud.

Member

It is NOT the Hungarian Left that distorts the Hungarian history in the worst possible way, but the chauvinist of the Right, (Jobbik) and the mafia thieves of the Fidesz, who want to ride the false nationalism, and hide their heinous crimes against the population, destruction of the social net and democracy, along with the education and health system. They are re-writing history again and omit all the atrocities, crimes, the anti-Semitism and the murdering of half a million Jews. They go even further back, fabricating lies about the era between the two World Wars and before back to 1867, Austro-Hungarian Compromise. The Fides
z is creating a completely false and distorted history, advertising greatness because there is a total lack of achievements and success and Hungarians became the pariah of Europe due to the criminal mafia chief, the Hungarian MINI-MUSSOLINI, “viktor I. (the little).
P.S. The Hungarian left, the MSZP and predecessor MSZMP did their own falsification by painting some the murderous communists as heroes and hiding their own crimes. They are only a degree better than the present fascists, the mafia thugs and ruffians, disguised as the Government.

1956
Guest

Even worse.

Probably, advice and bribes from Moscow, are at game.

The objective is to polarize/weaponize Hungary against the West.

And most Hungarians do not see the disinformation.

Crant
Guest

right. no rational being can claim that Orban is worse than the Communists that preceded him. provocateurs are rampant here – I also wonder about the site’s owner from time to time.

Observer
Guest

Don’t worry: the owner is OK, so are we and you trolls are contained.
Everything’s alright here, you can report this to the Agitprop Dept.

About Austrian culture
Guest
About Austrian culture

We accomplished more in science and technology and sports than most western big powers. Just compare the Nobel-award per population ratio or the olympics gold medals per population ratio with any big western powers.

Guest

Idiotic troll – you’ve written this before under a different name, coward!
Most of these famous people were Jews – which you killed if they didn’t emigrate in time …

PALIKA
Guest

Eva, thanks fo the update on attempts to rehabilitate the Horthy regime. The reason for wanting to do it remains a mystery. Earlier exchanges refer.

I believe the main issue that remains is the one where the paucity of evidence makes the verdict a matter of speculation. What part did H play in the deportation and murder of Hungarian Jews?

On a balance of probabilities the verdict goes against him. The deportation involved planning and commitment of resources. He was not consulted? He did not ask?

His knowledge of what the final solution involved would have been revealed in intelligence reports. He had to rely on amateur information gathering by his daughter in law? What did HITLER tell him? Did he not ask him?

There is, alas no smoking gun. The circumstantial evidence is damning.

Judit
Guest

As far as I know after the war Horthy was to have been brought to justice in court just like the other war criminals in Nuremberg by the Americans. That was a close shave for him. It was only thanks to some soviet intervention and his old age that he was allowed to go into exile to Portugal. He as Hitler’s last ally including of course Szálasi would have deserved to stand trial in my opinion.

PALIKA
Guest

Szalasi’s enemies in Hungary cheated justice by lynching him. Horthy should have been tried:

petofi
Guest

I guess Csatary didn’t have enemies in Hungary…none that lived his free trip to the camps…

How many apartments did Csatary have in Buda?
How did he return so quickly and how did he get his papers?
Where are the great investigative minds of Hungarian journalism like that showpiece, Kalman Olga, to ask pointed questions about these mysteries?

Nowhere. None. Nada.
The Hungarian air is rife with the stench of fear and corruption.
What decent mind can live and prosper there?

petofi
Guest

As a postscript to the above:
the most shameless thing is that Hungarians are AWARE of ‘the stench of fear and corruption’…and, holy of holies, they’re alright with it…

Guest
It is inconceivable that Horthy wouldn’t have known the whole truth about the fate of Jews in German-occupied lands latest by the end of 1942, particularly in the East. My father was a businessman in Budapest, and one of our employees, an ethnic German, joined the SS and subsequently took part in crushing the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in May 1943. The chap was very fond of my father, whom he regarded as the best man in the world after Herr Hitler. I kid you not. He came back to Budapest on a short furlough in July 1943, and on his first day back he came up to our apartment with gifts from the SS canteen in Budapest, stuff that at that time was no longer available in shops. He told my father all about crushing the uprising in Warsaw, and also about Auschwitz, Treblinka and Sobibor. I repeat: this was in July 1943. He said that the same fate was awaiting the Jews of Hungary, and out of the goodness of his heart he very kindly offered to take me and my sister to an SS camp in Germany for Aryan orphans, where our survival would at least be guaranteed.… Read more »
Guest
Thanks, Mike for your clear words – and also for this moving story! A bit OT, but still connected: My father was a German soldier as you surely know. Having left school at 13 he later became a policeman and then went to the Wehrmacht where he reached his top grade as a sergeant just before the war. He also married his girlfriend (my mother) just before the war against Poland because he thought he might not return – but they did not want children in those turbulent times. During the war Hitler of course needed more officers so they made my father into a lieutenant – he even went to serve in the outer guard ring of the headquarter (the inner of course was SS). He told me several times how astonished he was to hear jazz, see American films and watched the Nazi kingpins drinking whisky and champagne … He went back to the Russian front and helped hold back some advancing Russian troops in the winter of 1942/43 with his small group of cannons so the mass of German troops could safely retreat and he told me that at that time he already knew that the war… Read more »
Guest

@wolfi7777
Today 7:01 am

Thanks Wolfi. And by the way, your story is not at all OT, and very much connected. We all have our unique stories from those terrible times.

Best
Mike

Guest

After reading the above I think both of you are lucky to have spoken with your family about the war and its effects. I was told my father was a Magyar POW in the war. I do not know if he saw combat. That’s it. Nothing else. My mother also never discussed anything about the war. My father died when I was 12 so unfortunately I could never get a first hand account of his experience. As I grew up here so far away from the actual fighting I came to a realization that when I look ‘east’ there are many things that I do not have a grasp of from a familial past history. Who knows what secrets if any lurk from that dim and destructive period. The march of time and space sure can disconnect one from the uncertainties of that past.

Crant
Guest

I’m confused. The “chap” was from the SS? We now have SS-men saving people from blood-thirsty Hungarians? Forgive me if I LOL.

Guest
@Crant Today 2:26 pm What is your problem exactly? We were a secular Hungarian Jewish family under siege. We had a family company that under Hungary’s Jew laws had to be seen as being owned and run by a gentile. In our case it was a brother-in-law who was also a reservist major in the Hungarian army. The employee in question was a Hungarian-born ethnic German (Sváb). He was as devoted to my father, who had been his boss at our company from well before the introduction of the Jew laws, and remained the actual boss even under the “new management.” The guy was also devoted to Hitler and Nazism, and in 1941 he took leave from work and joined the Waffen SS. How he managed to reconcile devotion to my father with devotion to Hitler and Nazism I have no idea, but evidently he did. And the issue was not “saving people from blood-thirsty Hungarians,” but saving two Jewish babies from what he regarded as certain death after the German takeover of Hungary, which he clearly foresaw and explicitly foretold to my parents as early as July 1943. So give me a break and don’t start stupidly and boorishly… Read more »
Guest

Edit:

1. “He was devoted to my father” (drop “as”).

2. ” . . . arguing about matters that you know nothing about” (insert “know”).

Crant
Guest

The problem with the Horthy narrative is that he is the natural anti-narrative to the Communist pre- and post war narrative. You need a third narrative. This could be a democratic narrative but it cannot be the overbearing EU narrative. That is what the left cannot see. A healthy nationalism, patriotism is what Hungary needs. Being told how to act and being humiliated will only push more people towards the current government. There are two types of people out there: those stupid enough not to understand that and those who are counting precisely on that.

Observer
Guest

What Hungary needs most is
some civic education and understanding, some honesty to face past realities,
less cheating and delusions (I see no healthy patriotism here at all).
Then the majority of Hungarians may realize that it’s being duped, robbed and raped by the orban gang and it may get rid from this vermin.

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