Does Viktor Orbán really want a common European army?

It often happens, especially at Tusványos in a more relaxed atmosphere, that Viktor Orbán’s most interesting remarks come after his speech is over and when he is more willing to answer questions. While the Hungarian prime minister couched his message about the future of Europe in language that needed a great deal of parsing, his answer to the question about the military security of Europe was straightforward. He told his audience that he had changed his position on the matter of a common European army. He used to think that the existence of NATO provided an ample defense umbrella for Central Europe, but now, after Brexit, “the military strength of the continent has substantially decreased.” In these circumstances “we must create a European army that would be a truly common force with actual joint regiments, with a common language of command, with common structure.”

This new EU army would have to defend the continent from all threats coming from the east and the south. Orbán added that the establishment of such an army is also important because of the risk of terrorism and the migratory invasion. The migrants continue their efforts to gain entrance to the EU because they realize that “Europe is weak.”

Orbán’s answer was astonishing. Here is a politician who has been working hard for years to loosen the ties between the European Union and its member states and who has resisted all attempts at a level of cooperation that might lead one day to a United States of Europe. And now he comes forth with an idea that would take away the right of individual states to be in charge of their own defense. The Hungarian government put a great deal of money and effort into the country’s military academy, the Ludovika, intended to boost national pride and Hungary’s military tradition. And now this nationalistic prime minister suggests putting Hungarians into the common uniform of a European army, abandoning the uniform that was fashioned after 1990. In the newly refurbished and reorganized Hungarian military academy, cadets would have to study military science, most likely in English, and the Hungarian enlisted men would also have to learn some English, just as their predecessors who served in the common (k. und k.) army of the Dual Monarchy had to learn some German. Or perhaps, even worse, there would be no national military academies at all. Coming from Viktor Orbán, the whole idea is extraordinary.

To change these traditional uniform?

Is Orbán willing to change these traditional uniforms

to something jazzy like this?

to something jazzy like this?

Just to make myself clear, I would welcome the establishment of such an army. I embrace almost all suggestions for closer ties among member states because the current structure of the European Union is inadequate to its tasks. Moreover, I do think that Europe must assume a larger share of the cost of its own defense. As it stands, the United States spent 3.3% of its GDP on the military in 2015. NATO’s European members are supposed to spend at least 2.0% of their GDP on the military, but with the exception of Poland all member states consistently fall short. Therefore, strengthening the European forces either by individual states or by the formation of a common army should be welcomed. I just can’t see how this latest brainchild of Orbán is consistent with his overall attitude toward Brussels.

I also have some problems with Orbán’s justification for his change of heart on the matter of European defense. He said that it was the United Kingdom’s departure from the Union that drove home to him the necessity of a common army. It is true that the U.K. has a more robust military than the countries of the continent, but I don’t see what Brexit has to do with the security of the EU. The U.K. will remain part of NATO. Its leaving the EU makes not the slightest difference as far as the defense of Europe is concerned.

I’m also not sure what this army would be used for. György Nógrádi, the government’s favorite “security expert,” who listened to the speech live, interpreted the common military to be a force that is necessary to keep the migrants out, “if necessary not by peaceful means.” It would also be useful to know what Orbán means by the geographic designation of “East.” Could it possibly mean Russia or he is simply thinking of migrants coming through Bulgaria? Not at all clear.

Finally, in my opinion, he confused the matter mightily when he told his audience that the countries of the Visegrád 4–the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, and Slovakia–“are working on establishing a common army of their own which would not be part of the European common army.” Wow, the more the merrier? What would a separate V4 army do? I have searched in vain for some reasonable explanation of why the V4 would need such an army, but I can’t come up with anything.

It is typical of the pettiness of Hungarian political discourse that the two largest parties on the democratic side, MSZP and DK, began arguing over which of them first came up with the idea of a common army. I can’t pick the winner. All I know is that about eight months ago, in November of 2015, MSZP submitted a parliamentary proposal for such an army which was ignored by the Fidesz-KDNP majority, as all such proposals are. At that time Lajos Kósa, the leader of the Fidesz caucus, explained that such a proposal was meaningless. “Europe has a common army,” NATO.

Actually, the idea of a European army has been around for a long time. As early as 2009 the European Union had a plan for such an army, which was approved by the European Parliament. According to General Zoltán Szenes, professor of military science, this plan included a “synchronized military force,” which meant that all member nations would have had to relinquish their rights as far as defense was concerned and consign them to the center. The European Union would have done the recruiting, would have provided training, and would have financed the force. Naturally, nothing came of it. Moreover, a year later, in 2010, Viktor Orbán would have vetoed the plan if it had ever gotten to the European Council. But now he is all for it. At least this is what he says. Perhaps he’s afraid that his choice for the U.S. presidency will abandon both Europe and NATO and that Europe will have to fend for itself militarily.

July 25, 2016
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Member

PANNÓNIAI PÁVA TÁNC

Isn’t it obvious? It’s just another momentary peacock two-step to one side in order to make the threat seem more urgent for the Referendum while reassuringly signalling solidarity with the EU, as the pro-euro feint last week did. Orban is too much of a simpleton to warrant all the heavy hermeneutics devoted to trying to divine his thoughts. There aren’t any; just momentary expediency. It’s all always dead obvious but also so dishonest and devoid of scruple that naive observers keep looking for something deep instead.

comment image

webber
Guest

Perfect!

Guest

Great buzz – vision there! My eyes are going out of sync. That’s Viktor.. always throwing moving targets.

And the concept of a ‘Euro’ army. I agree with Istvan’s comment that it wouldn’t be successful in defense against a conventional attack. Further I’d suggest there would be very difficult issues of command and control if hostilities break out. When it would be a ‘European’ army it would frankly be no one’s army.

Also, responsibilities would perhaps be an amorphous word when it comes to country defense postures under that kind of military committee. Viktor must be apparently oblivious to the fact that his idea if implemented opens up Europe to be the tasty cheese to the ‘always hungry for territory’ Russian rattus.

petofi
Guest

What Orban really wants is for Putin to let him get off the merry-go-round; leave Hungary; buy a 100 million pound estate outside of
London; and eat imported ‘libamaj’while dangling his foot in the pool.

petofi
Guest

What Orban really wants is for Putin to let him get off the merry-go-round; leave Hungary; buy a 100 million pound estate outside of
London; and eat imported ‘libamaj’while dangling his foot in the pool.

Member

Why do people and newspaper writers waste their time to pay attention to anything the viktor says? Hungary has no army, they can’t even have a parade, so the viktor is just arunny mouth idiot, with no power. If nobody listens, he can’t have any power.

e-2016
Guest

This blog may need a realignment.
Its political philosophy should be clarified, and instead of a bloated diary, opinions of the best Hungarian minds should be recorded.

Guest

Or bloated Hungarian minds should look elsewhere?

Guest

Re: ‘opinions of the best Hungarian minds should be recorded’

And more should contribute from ‘out there’ into this blogosphere. Like Star Trek they might go where none have gone before. Indeed there are alternative universes to be explored.

e-2016
Guest

The content of this blog truly reflects the sad state of Hungary, it is almost like reading an obituary draft.

This doomsday mood could be replaced by bright commentaries from leading Hungarian thinkers and politicians, to cheer up the nation, and forge a hope.

There must be a future for the nation of Ferenc Deak.

It is a pleasure to read his speeches, which paved the road to a happy and successful era.

http://mek.oszk.hu/02200/02213/html/

For real entertainment, there is Rejtő Jenő:

http://mek.oszk.hu/01000/01044/01044.pdf

Guest

And you’ve never wondered why so many Hungarians are leaving their country – and even more are thinking about it?

In my wife’s family and among our younger friends I’d say:

All of them would leave if they could!

And many have left to DACH, the Netherlands, the Canary Islands and Britain of course.

My wife’s nephew is a prof at a private university in the USA – he and his family have just visited us. They liked that holiday but to return to their home town in the East of Hungary is a kind of horror for them …

Guest

Really gets me to hear that. Gives me much thought on the saying… ‘You can never ‘go home’ anymore. Given time and environment it appears that it is likely that some Magyars going back will always be strangers in that strange land. I’d wonder if gone-away Finns , who are ‘cousins’ , get the same view when they go back. Unless they are blind I wouldn’t think they see horror stories.

Guest

And if i can illustrate. An orchestra could stand in for a country’s heartbeat and attitude. This Handelian piece shows great freshness , vitality and relentless drive toward musical excellence. Curious how this kind of piece would get played now in the land. I’m not too sure they’d be in touch with the feeling.

https://youtu.be/Kr59-4IUVq8

dos929
Guest
The PM of a country that has more employees in their Ministry of Defence than actual soldiers should keep his big mouth shut… The PM of a country of which the uniforms are simply stomach turning shouldn’t even get into the topic of the military. And what army? Hungary hasn’t got an army. It has a 2-4 thousand strong personal body guard regiment for the protection of Orban and his cronies. The Hungarian government (no doubt as a result of one of Orban’s bright ideas…) just now is engaged in a new venture; namely to enlist the ‘forced labour force’ (people who are forced to do community work instead of getting social security) into the army as ‘volunteers’… What a sad state of a country and its government! Hungary under the FIDESZ and Orban’s leadership has sunk so deep that it cannot even be called a banana republic. The government that doesn’t leave stone unturned to flood the country with anti-EU posters on the streets and wall-to-wall TV advertising against the EU, shouldn’t propagate any ideas about the European Union. They should be happy not to be thrown out of the EU owing to their dreadful deeds that no civilised… Read more »
FreeWheeling
Guest

Good post. I don’t know the figures myself, but the opposition if they were organised would have immediately compiled how many work and what is spent for TEK to protect OV, PP, KL and other Fideszers versus how many soldiers work and is spent for the defense of Hungary.

I think you’re going a little too far in stating that Hungary is not even a banana republic. The problem with autocrats is that eventually they will fail not only themselves because of insularity, but bring down the country as well.

tappanch
Guest

The 220,000 “fostered” workers now face a choice. Either they show up and enroll (if they are deemed fit) in the army or lose their net 200 euro a month salary.

This army-on-the-cheap can also be used against restive civilians in the future.

In the fall, the Orban government will change the 1989 liberal law on demonstrations. Since Orban’s takeover, strikes or referendums are practically banned (unless they are initiated by the government). Now it is the turn of the protests. Police will be able to ban them in a few months using spurious arguments.

tappanch
Guest
Istvan
Guest
Well unfortunately Orban’s pontification on the European Army could actually be on the agenda if Trump should be elected. The U.K. has not indicated that it plans to abandon NATO as Eva correctly points out, but Mr . Trump has very much raised that possibility. But the Army described by PM Orban is not really an Army so much as some type of massive anti-terrorism force, the TEK on steroids. In technical terms Orban seems to be proposing not a European Army as such but rather a European self defense force composed largely of what is called light infantry. Light infantry units lack the greater firepower, operational mobility and protection of mechanized or armored units, but possess greater tactical mobility and the ability to execute missions in severely restrictive terrain and in areas where weather makes vehicular mobility difficult. To be explicit that type of European Army could not defend Europe and Central Europe against a conventional assault by Russian forces. Moreover, a European Army of the type Orban seemed to discuss lacks global reach and might lack strategic nuclear forces of any significance, let alone tactical nuclear forces. The truth is that global reach is required for European defense.… Read more »
Guest

Re: ‘Trump is the militant isolationist, while Sanders is the peaceful isolationist with both trends being profoundly delusional. Orban is the idiot isolationist without any money to defend his own country’

These fellows are sure out to lunch. And it is frightening to think of the possibilities of strategic security initiatives to come out of their heads if the opportunities presented themselves. Their stances can only continue to develop questions in Europe on US defense commitments. No wonder nuke talk gets batted around in Europe when it comes to country defense. And especially after the Ukraine fiasco where Russia allegedly gave security assurances. We have seen what happened with that. It was Russian bs.

Guest

Trump, Sanders, Orban as military geniuses . . . Yeah, the lights are on, but nobody is at home. :-))

Guest

Re: Orban as military genius…

What I think is required reading for him is Mohacs if he is also a ‘planner’. No doubt the sign of the cross will be made. The latter site is one of those area/experiences where you make a mistake and not only is it very disastrous for you but also for all those arable and rich lands behind you which would be made ripe for grazing and razing.

petofi
Guest

It’s ridiculous lumping Sanders with those two miscreants-

Guest

If it is indeed the case, as Istvan claims above, that in 1995 Sanders introduced a bill to terminate America’s nuclear weapons program and as late as 2002 he supported a 50 percent cut for the Pentagon without the slightest reference to the actual national defense needs of the US, then Sanders must indeed be a military genius with some magic wand other than the US army, air force, marines and navy to hold at bay the enemies of his country.

As a former communist fellow traveler and current democratic socialist (whatever that might mean), the strong suit of Sanders is social policy addressing the hollowing out of the lower middle class in his country. Defense, foreign or economic policies are however not exactly his strong points – and that is very mildly put.

petofi
Guest

I reject any characterization of Bernie Sanders…other than that he is a thoughtful, intelligent, person.

Guest

Bernie… Nice intelligent guy. But POTUS???? Better fit for POBC……that’s Prez of Brooklyn County.

And speaking of counties, I get a kick out of how Trump gets categorized as a ‘Queens boy’ with its associations of a working class background. He’s about as working class as King Louis XIV was at Versailles coming from the Queens upscale haven of ‘Jamaica Estates’. And the creation of myth begins with maybe a future ‘ L’etat c’est moi’ Donny.

Guest

I agree that Sanders is a thoughtful and intelligent person. He is certainly not a devious crook like Hillary and neither is he a fraudulent show pony like the Don.

webber
Guest

I like Bernie too, but have two problems with him. 1. he’s too old, and I fear he may not have all his facilities in 4 years.
2. He’s too left-wing for the American center, and by the American center I mean the mass of Americans. He simply could not win, in my view.
HC can (yes, we know you hate her – give it a rest for a time, will you?) Bernie, the thoughtful intelligent person also thinks she can win. Indeed, he thinks she must.
So I suggest you listen to what Bernie has to say about HC now.

Observer
Guest
Gyula B is partially right, it’s a waste of time to ponder every inconsistent piece of BS coming from Orban, but this one is at loggerheads with every reality and with many of his earlier statements too: – Brexit has nothing to do with NATO i.e. the strength of European defense, as Eva pointed out. – How come the E.Army would defend against threats from the East, where Orban is opening to? – Use of EA against migrants ! – the idea reveals Orban’s complete ignorance re the fundamental difference between police/gendarmerie and military’s tasks. (@Istvan touches on the subject above) And as if the current European armies are not strong enough to fight off migrants. – The Hungarian defense budget is approx. 0.8%, so, before entertaining any pipe dreams, the budget should be brought into compliance, i.e. has to be more than doubled with additional 190 billion Ft. – Trump’s position goes against the defense interests of Europe, but Orban likes this !? I guess this unexpected babble stems from the Orban’s infantile power fantasies: choo choo train, castle, European leader and now army, although Fidesz circulated related ideas in the past – reestablishment of the draft, of creation… Read more »
Observer
Guest

@Fidesznik Joe

Read carefully, if you can: I wrote about the Orban’s flipping mutually exclusive notions – he is concerned about European defense, but “likes this” Trump disengagement. That’s typial Orban BS.

I don’t know what to do with (mit kezdeni) the “XL Jjobbik” Trump notion, surely have have the right to say any nonsense that comes to your mind.

Joe Simon
Guest

If Trump wants to disengage, a European Army makes sense.
By the way, it will be rather comical to see you all at HS preaching the Gospel, while you have a Super XL Jobbik as president of the United States.

FreeWheeling
Guest

You obviously didn’t put too much thought in your sizing up of Trump. Your presumed “Super XL Jobbik” president had a “proud” gay German-American tech billionaire speak before him the night of his nomination admonishing the party faithful for distracting itself with too many nonsense social issues like regulating which bathroom transgenders can use. I don’t recall any negative response from the RNC audience like what has already occurred at the DNC. So how does that Jobbik analogy fit for size again?

The truth, according to people that really know him, is that Trump is a conniving salesman who will say or do anything to get what he wants. He’s not alone amongst politicians, or in his case a wannabe politician.

petofi
Guest

Joe,

If you see Trump elected, just bend over and kiss your ass good-bye because, sure as shirley, there’ll be a major war.

Guest
London Calling! Orban probably has a problem with understanding that the UK hasn’t left Europe. We are only leaving the EU. “………….but with the exception of Poland all member states consistently fall short.” The UK alone among all other members – but for the USA – have consistently contributed 2% of GDP – for the last decade. (Unless you excluded the UK from your narrative, Eva?) We even pay more than Germany! The English always buy their round. It’s a ‘pub’ tradition! I’ve always marvelled at how Germans pay for their beer in their ‘pubs’. The ‘waiter’ brings round large trays of fizzing beer and proceeds to mark each owner’s beer mat with a crayon. At the end of an evening each drinker takes his mat to the till and the barman tallys up the bill. So Germans only pay for their own beer. For many years – as only a light beer drinker – I’d subsidise the drinking habits of heavy drinker colleagues – having bought much more beer during my ’round’ than I ever consumed. The German tradition has a lot to commend it. Social beer drinking doesn’t appear to exist in Hungary – unless you count the… Read more »
petofi
Guest

I left Hungary after grade 1, but in the meantime I’ve learned how to spell kocsma…and willingly pass the intelligence on to you-

tappanch
Guest

Periods in the next 1 1/2 years, where Islamic terror is not mandated by Sura 9:

2016: [August 5, November 1]

2017: [March 30, April 27] and [July 25, October 20]

tappanch
Guest

Periods in the next 1 1/2 years, when …

tappanch
Guest

One of the reasons Trump, LePen and Orban can advance their anti-Democratic plans, because Hillary & Obama, Holland and Merkel have not given adequate answers to the problem of Islamist terrorism.

Guest

And of course every killing by a Muslim will be called “Islamist terrorism” – so should we call all the other killings, where no Muslim is involved “Christian terrorism”?

Just look at the USA, the home of mass killings!

tappanch
Guest

The Munich terrorist of Iranian extraction did not murder in the name Islam, he was a Breivik imitator instead. But the others seemed to be happy to die to fulfill the Koran’s mandate.

tappanch
Guest

Statistics of European terrorist attacks 2001-2015:

comment image

tappanch
Guest

Sept 10, 2001 through January 15, 2015

tappanch
Guest

14 Islamist attacks in France, [December 2014, July 2016]:

dead: 240 + others later in hospitals
injured: 615

tappanch
Guest

US statistics of mass murders [dead, injured] in 2015 & 2016.

June 12, 2016, Orlando : [50,53] – Islamist
December 2, 2015, San Bernandino: [14,22] – Islamist
November 29, 2015, Colorado Springs [3,9]
October 1, 2015, Roseburg OR [9,9]
July 16, 2015: Chattanooga [5,3] – Islamist
June 18, 2015: Charleston [9, ]

Half of the attacks and more than three quarters of the deaths were the result of Islamist murders in this 19 months period.

webber
Guest

Oh ffs! Have you forgotten how to interpret data again, or have you lost your ability to formulate things in clear English??
“half of the attacks and more than three quarters of the deaths” were NOT the result of murders “in those 19 months.

FYI, about 13,000 people were shot and killed in the US last year – precisely 12,942 by Dec. 23, and I just bet it went over 13,000 by the end of the month because, on average,36 people were shot and killed every day in the US.

That is shot and killed. That number does not include homicide by car bomb, ax, poison, knife, baseball bat, strangling, drowning, smothering, or anything else you can imagine and some you can’t. That 13,000 is just shootings.

Of these, one highlight was the shooting of six children, their mother and her boyfriend in Houston.
I have no idea how many died in shootings of multiple people of various sorts (gang violence featuring high), but I bet the numbers are impressive for that as well.

webber
Guest

Not to mention those killed by the police in the US in 2015 – more than 1,000 by most tallies.

You are, thus, much more likely to be killed by a policeman in the US than by a terrorist (just compare your numbers with 1,000 deaths).

petofi
Guest

-numbskull response

Guest

petofi, lay off it!

You’re getting kind of ridiculous. In the USA the danger of getting killed by a Christian policeman, a reneck or even a child playing with the parents’ gun is much higher than getting killed by a Muslim – whether terrorist or just crazy (because of PTSD)!

abbaba
Guest

Apparently, FAZ also picked up the story about Hungarys sudden interest in the eurozone. Of course this is, just as Stevan Hernad indicated a peacock dance, but it usually works. This time Varga is working the international investors, analysts as being seriously interested in the eurozone is a verbal intervention in order to finaly reach an upgrading.

Guest

Thought bubbles from the ludicrous mouse that roars. :-))

Anyway, the reality is that without America, Europe couldn’t defend itself from even a platoon of mickey mouses, and Hungary – not even from a swarm of mosquitoes.

Guest

The question then arises why is that? The answer is very simple: because plainly, Europe is neither interested nor willing to defend itself. And if there is neither interest nor willingness, the question of ability to do so does not even arise.

Zsolt
Guest

The question of the ability to do so isn’t relevant. If the willingness is not there the ability has no relevance obviously. If the willingness is there the ability is there on a continent that has a 15.000 billion USD “GDP” and a population of half a billion. Compared to Russia’s 1300 billion USD GDP and a population of 140 million.

tappanch
Guest

“Do you agree that the Parliament should make a law banning the [further] privatization [i.e. fideszization] of the state-owned agricultural land?”

The National Election Bureau declared about 18.4% of the signatures for a referendum about agricultural land invalid, so no referendum can be held.

http://nol.hu/belfold/elkaszaljak-a-foldrol-szolo-nepszavazast-de-gogos-meg-harcol-1625141

Observer
Guest

How interesting , there are just enough invalid endorsements to sink the referendum initiative. Is 18% a record or they have done this already in Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan?

Observer
Guest

It seems the regime doesn’t even care to pretend democracy and rule of law.

Member
PALIKA
Guest
European Army is a possibility provided its objectives and limitations are well understood and clearly defined. The UK might or might not participate even post Brexit. After all it need not be an EU Army. It clearly cannot replace NATO. Neither can it defend the continent against Russia without US participation. Any serious plans to establish one might be seen as an attempt to undermine NATO which could make it a dangerous project if not clearly defined. Does this give us a clue as to OV’s demented thought processes? The guy is probably unwell. Pictures published tend to support that in addition to the ravings. There are some of his writings which are better balanced but he is not likely to be the author. There is however a serious problem with militant Islam. We now face an existential threat. A priest murdered my Islamist fighters in his church is heavily symbolic and deeply alarming. Orban has a point about migration from the Islamic world. It is futile to deny that. Also that we will find an increasing number of people who express similar views and recommend similar action. It is becoming increasingly clear that the open door approach of last… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

“In countries where there are no Islamist migrants there is no terror attack. See Spain and Portugal. ”

Spain is 4% Muslim now, about 2 million people, mostly immigrants and their descendants of the last 25 years. Do not forget the 192 dead (including 142 Spanish, 16 Romanian, 6 Ecuadorian citizens) and 2,051 injured victims of the March 11, 2004 Atocha train station bombing either.

PALIKA
Guest

Good point and I have forgotten the 2004 event. Why is France and Germany singled out now? Recent migrants in Gerrmany and French insensitivity in handling their long term migrant population from decades ago?

tappanch
Guest

Most of the terrorists in France and Belgium were already born there. [I have to check this statement]. Second and third generation. My guess is that Spain and Germany will have similar problems later.

PALIKA
Guest

I guess you are right.

Piers Morgan wrote today we have to slam the gate shut now. But it does not address the historic migrant issues.
Blair is an author of the problem. Cameron generated a situation which is now a diversion from addressing existential issues whilst the disgruntled English indulge their latest dose of xenophobia dressed up as usual as patriotism.
Whilst the poor priest has his throat cut B and C enjoy a wealth life style that would make the members of the dead priest’s congregation’s eyes water.

Guest

With respect, I don’t think that the life styles of B and C are in any way relevant to the very valid point you raise about the dangers posed by radicalized second and third generation Muslims in Europe and the recent mass arrival of Afghan, Middle Eastern and black African Muslims, among whom there would also be not a few radicalized Islamist.

The real issue is the as yet unresolved crisis of the post-modern universalist liberal democratic values underpinning the post-war European order getting clobbered by a highly inimical new reality driven by the rapid shrinkage of a globe that is home to all humanity, a large majority of whom is however mentally still in the middle ages, if not in the stone age.

PALIKA
Guest

Ask the Israelis how to reduce the risk of extreme Islam destroying their country. And then follow their example.

Guest

I agree.

On this score, you are most certainly on the money.

Except that in Israel it is not extreme Islam, but a century old intransigent local Arab independence insurgency is at play on a zero sum game basis.

The problem however is how viable are the Israeli solutions in the longer term.

A second problem is whether right wing European nationalisms would actually be able to reverse the seemingly inexhorable drift toward Eurabia.

And the third is whether we would want to return to a world of benighted right wing nationalisms that we all thought we left behind a long time ago.

PALIKA
Guest

May not have te choice. That or life in Khaliate.

Guest

Re:’ The problem however is how viable are the Israeli solutions in the longer term’

You know they seem to be doing a pretty good job now for a country literally under shot and shell. And let us add a death sentence.
What it says to me is that Israel because of its position ‘gets it’ in that they understand that if post modern liberal democratic values are to flourish and survive actions such as theirs are essential in the face of terror. If things continue as they are once again democracies will certainly have to make the world safe again. And war, that ugly reality, could be on the horizon. Israelis are tough. I just wonder too how long they can say, ‘I’ll meet you later… that’s if I don’t get blown up on the bus’.

Guest

You got it in one, and hat tip to you for that.

I say this as a Jewish nationalist, a former Israeli and for many years a soldier in Israel.

Guest

And I accord my respect to you.

Btw, I hope to go to Masada one day like I believe all Israeli soldiers do. A great symbol of fighting for freedom. The least I can do as one who gets the fruits of freedom here in the US.

Guest

Thank you.

wpDiscuz