Viktor Orbán’s gamble failed: the referendum is invalid

The insidious hate campaign leading up to today’s referendum on compulsory refugee quotas has failed, badly. First of all, only 43.8% of the electorate went to the polls, far below the necessary 50% plus 1. Even more telling is that only 39.93% of the electorate cast a valid vote; 60.07% either spoiled their ballots or didn’t bother to vote. The Two-Tail Dog Party’s campaign to invalidate ballots made an impact: 6.3% of the voters spoiled their ballots. This is a very high number, especially if one compares it to earlier referendums and elections where spoiled ballots constituted no more than 0.5-2.0% of all ballots.

To get a picture of nationwide trends, one has to study the data published by the National Election Office. People in Budapest were the least enthusiastic about voting at this referendum: only 34.72% of them turned out, and the number of invalid ballots was very high, about 15%. In larger cities, like Szeged, Debrecen, and Pécs, the turnout was somewhat higher but the number of invalid ballots was still relatively high.

All in all, one can call this much touted referendum, which was, according to Viktor Orbán, as important as the regime change in 1989-1990, a flop.

Victory was not in the cards

Victory was not in the cards for Viktor

I was most curious to see how Viktor Orbán would try to turn this fiasco into a victory. Well, here is his take on it. In 2003, 3,056,027 people voted in favor of joining the European Union. This time 3,237,415 people voted against the European Union’s right to foist unwanted migrants on Hungary. Moreover, 15% more people voted in today’s referendum than in the European parliamentary elections of 2014. Therefore, this referendum is a stunning success. It boggles the mind.

And, by the way, he will ask parliament to change again, for the seventh time, the 2012 Fidesz constitution to include a provision that would ensure that foreigners can settle in Hungary only with the authorization of parliament. I might add that this was the original suggestion of Jobbik, which, as Jobbik politicians pointed out today, would have cost no money whatsoever. But, of course, we know that this referendum had little or nothing to do with compulsory quotas. It was an attempt to further bolster the present government’s hold on society. It backfired. It is now up to the opposition to make good use of this Fidesz defeat.

October 2, 2016
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Member

I just posted this on the previous blog entry, but I think this is very important here too.
From the daily paper, Magyar Nemzet: it turns out that Bayer’s best friend, Orban is selling out Hungarian citizenship for half price to Chinese “investors”. The Chinese page of Hungary State Special Debt Fund (HSSDF) openly advertises this option. For about 130,000 Euro / person you can get Hungarian citizenship. Eva just pointed out Orban’s friend, Zsolt Bayer xenophobic, racist article where he tries to protect white Europe! This is how much the wholesome white Hungary worth to Bayer and hisbuddies! 130,00 Euros/ Chines, Japanese, Arabs, Russians, whoever! Anyone but refugees! Bayer and Orban are scums of the Earth!
http://mno.hu/gazdasag/letelepedesi-kotveny-fel-aron-1364253

Ocsi
Guest

I am so disgusted with this government it hurts my head. Orbán’s trumpery is vile and sickening.

I will never go back to Hungary so long as Orbán, Fidesz or Jobbik are in power. I’m now extending my boycott to Hungarian exports. Spanish paprika is fine with me! And I don’t need bad Hungarian wines or palinka. Enough is enough!

And I’m also losing my patience with the European Union. They should tell Orbán, in no uncertain terms, that Hungary is either in the Union and follows its rules or it is out. At the moment I’m all for suspending Hungary from the Union and, if that doesn’t get the message across to this xenophobic nation, Hungary should be kicked out. Otherwise the EU is doomed.

Also, I don’t have much sympathy for those who stayed home and didn’t vote. If they allow others to make choices for them they can piss off as far as I’m concerned.

webber
Guest

You don’t have much sympathy for those who stayed home and didn’t vote…
Well you missed the point of that, didn’t you? That just means you weren’t in Hungary. If you were in Hungary over the past two months, you would understand. You would especially understand if you were from a village and got threats – personal threats – that if you don’t go vote, you will lose your job, or your workfare, or any number of other things (even a “yes” vote was okay with fidesz – that, too, would have made the vote valid).
Did you know that Fidesz paid some slush money to the Liberal Party to campaign in opposition-held areas of Budapest for the “yes” vote? You see, Fidesz knew the “nos” would win – but wasn’t sure the vote would be valid.
This was the best possible result. A shame more people did not vote, but hey – this, too, was a surprise.

webber
Guest

P.S. Don’t worry about the EU ejecting Hungary.
Having now watched Orban’s insane “victory speech” twice, I am convinced that he is preparing to take Hungary out of the EU.

Roderick Beck
Guest

And lose at least 6% of its GDP in the form of EU development? And of course, the real number would be larger to the loss of exports and direct foreign investment.

webber
Guest

I said I think he’s insane, didn’t I?

petofi
Guest

Welcome to the party, webber, I said as much more than 2 years ago…

webber
Guest

I believe it was more than three years ago that you first said that (I like to give credit where credit is due).

pappp
Guest
I agree that Orban wants to get Hungary out of the EU. I totally do. I can even imagine that there will be a next referendum on that question. Just to keep people preoccupied with such fights and campaigns. It’s a great way to distract people and meanwhile – Orban could argue – it would elevate him into the realm of really big politicians who don’t deal with petty issues like health care or education, who only deal with national or global issues of the highest order. Orban is incapable of admitting defeat, instead he usually wants to up the ante. He always wanted to get Hungary out of the EU but now he has a reason. In his mind he was humiliated by the EU or the voters who seem to prefer the EU (in some indirect way) over his idea of sovereignty. That cannot be. I agree also that Orban is insane. Bomlott elme which, mind you, does not exclude the possibility of seemingly normal behavior in everyday life. I would be tempted to say Orban is Putin’s agent on this. Orban all but promised Putin to lead Hungary out of the EU and Simicska fell out with… Read more »
petofi
Guest

So my wife tells me, as well-

dos929
Guest

As could be expected, Orban is trying to make gold out of shit…. In spite the millions of €’s spent on his propaganda and lies he has failed. But never fear, he will make up for it in new legislations that would render the already non-existing rule of law into oblivion… And what about his statement that he will resign if the referendum fail? I can hardly wait for the fulfillment of this promise never to be realised…

Member
“Is it true that you have not stopped beating your spouse?” Of course Orban did not say he will quit if the referendum “fails.” (What does that mean?) He said he would quit if the majority voted for YES (which, with his demagogic bogus-question would be equivalent to replying YES to “Is it true that you have not stopped beating your spouse?” — regardless of whether you have ever beaten your spouse, or whether you even have a spouse!). He said nothing (in advance) about what he would do if the referendum was invalid, for having failed to reach the 50% +1 threshold. And he won’t ever say anything about that (he is constitutionally incapable of conceding defeat). He will instead try to execute what was Plan B all along: Modify the constitution, interpreting the 98% NO vote (out of the 44% who voted, ignoring the 66% percent who did not vote, refusing to collaborate in making any response at all to Orban’s bogus-question) as having been a mandate to flout EU law. But it won’t work, first, because he will not dare try to implement such a law. He just wants to formally adopt it as a domestic face-saver… Read more »
Member

Correction: that should of course be 56%/44% (not 66%/44%), or 60%/40% if the invalid votes are discounted…

tappanch
Guest

A.
A time series (a function) that always grows [which is newsworthy], but still stays at the same level [which is hushed up]:

comment image

Lots of governments use this trick in their statistics.

B.
With the numbers of the National Election Bureau (or the Statistical Office or the National Bank), one should also keep in mind that those numbers can change, sometimes retroactively, or disappear.

C.
The midnight numbers are the following:

support for the Fidesz+Jobbik “no”

Hungary total: 40.38%

Budapest: 34.00 %
Baranya: 37.61%
Borsod: 38.77%

[…]
GYŐR-MOSON-SOPRON: 47.89%
Vas: 48.55%

http://valasztas.hu/dyn/onepsz201610/szavossz/hu/terossz.html

tappanch
Guest

No/Valid “mail-in” votes:

Oct 2, 23h04 : 29616/30096
Oct 2, 23h59: 37476/38008
Oct 3, 00h59: 46986/47550

No voters/eligible voters

Budapest districts:

district 13: 26.95%
district 08: 27.52%
district 07: 27.65%

[…]

district 01: 37.66%
district 12: 38.42%
district 16: 40.10%

webber
Guest

You’re right. Figures seem to be changing by the hour even now.

tappanch
Guest

Towns with county rights:

Szeged: 33.31%
Budapest: 34.00 %
Pécs: 34.22%
Dunaújváros: 34.37%

Salgótarján: 35.50%
Tatabánya: 36.10%
Szolnok: 36.20%
Nyíregyháza: 37.62%
Miskolc: 37.89%

Érd: 38.65%

Nagykanizsa: 39.43%
Békéscsaba: 39.49%
Debrecen: 39.79%
Kecskemét: 39.82%
Kaposvár: 39.83%

Eger: 40.99%
Veszprém: 41.53%
Székesfehérvár: 41.95%
Szekszárd: 41.99%

Győr: 42.54%
Szombathely: 42.93%
Zalaegerszeg: 43.48%

Sopron: 46.47%

tappanch
Guest

The path of the “mail-in” votes is as opaque as it was in the 2014 election.

registration requests for a “mail-in” vote (no Hungarian address):
332757 (of which 36.46% are from e-Landia)

registrations granted:
275804 (of which 36.31% are from e-Landia)

received ballots through October 1:
90921 (by mail: 64283, from consulates: 26638 )

valid ballots
74 652

Member

I am quite happy with the result but not with the fallout.

I feel all parties will now declare this a win, the highly fragmented left-wing will, as expected, fail to capitalise on the low turnout, and we soon will be back to square one — Orban can get back to destroying the country first thing on Monday.

webber
Guest

Orban and crew must surely be panicking about the results from Debrecen. Eastern Hungary has been one of his strongholds, and Debrecen is his deputy’s, Kósa’s, city. It has been Fidesz’s for quite some time. Something has changed drastically in public opinion, and Fideszniks have just felt it, and they obviously do not understand it.

Gardonista
Guest

When I seen an election result with 92% voting in favor of the government position, I think of some sort of Soviet election. It seems that everyone in the country knew what was going on, and the low voter turnout really is meaningful.

This seems like our first time in a long time to say over and over: The majority of Hungarian voters rejected the government position. The low voter turnout is a rare successful voter boycott.

Bravo to Hungary. Now let’s find more ways to weaken Orban.

Latefor
Guest

The Hungarian people had a golden opportunity in front of them to take an active part and decide their country’s future. I’m outraged that most of them didn’t even bother to vote. What does that tell you about the Hungarian people? (Akos Kertesz and “petofi” comes to my mind)
Whatever happens in the future, at least they cannot blame the Prime Minister for not asking them. They can blame the politicians for Trianon, but they can never blame the government of the day for the outcome of this important referendum.
By the looks of it, those who didn’t bother to vote obviously prefer open borders.
Does that mean that their “silent vote” means: YES?

Reality Check
Guest

It tells you that most are not suckers.

Latefor
Guest

@Reality Check
Please answer my question. Thank you.

webber
Guest

It might mean a lot of things, and one of the things it definitely means is that they’re fed up with Fidesz. You cannot believe the amount of media, advertisment, and all around pressure there was to vote. I’ve never seen anything like it.

Latefor
Guest

Webber – this was NOT about Fidesz. The referendum was about Hungarian suverinity.
Re: answer to my question – please, NO pussy-footing around.

webber
Guest

(WRONG! I’m in Hungary, you see, and you are in Australia. Don’t tell me what it was “not about.” You have no clue.)

Yes sir! You are right! No pussy-footing from me, sir!
42!
That’s the answer. The more detailed answer is 6×7.
Negyvenkettő.
Elnézést, uram!
42!

No pussy-footing around from me, no sirree-bob!

Guest

So do you still believe that the majority of Hungarians adore O as you wrote here some time ago?

You’re funny in a way …

PS: Try to spell English correctly “suverinity” is not a word!

Latefor
Guest

wolfi7777
re: “suverinity”
Maybe I did it from the goodness of my heart in order to make your life fulfilled!

Latefor
Guest

it should be: sovereignty (my “tablet” should be destroyed)

webber
Guest

Latefor
I’m sure you want the absolutely correct answer to your very complex and intelligent question. Naturally there is only one correct answer to such a question. And since there is only one correct answer, you don’t need Reality Check to answer it. Anyone can give you the absolutely correct answer. So I will.
The answer you need is:
42
Or, put in another way.
Forty-two.

Guest

No webber! Not Douglas Adams this time!

This is the answer:

“Always the stronger dog f<**s!
maybe it’s time for some western dogs to take a rest from the humping or a nice German Shepherd could bite of his thingilingi.
systematic sh#t stirring."

As latefor ‘sagely’ contributed some time ago.

(All with atrocious spelling too! Suverinity!!)

webber
Guest

It’s 42 charlie. End of discussion. 42.
You don’t have to accept the facts. You don’t have to like them. They remain immutable facts.
42.

Guest

He said “you’re not gonna like it” – “Not one little bit!”

As you said….

Latefor
Guest

Have you taken on your usuall attack dog role?
Just some delicacies for your enjoyment:
According to some of the commenters on this blog, the Hungarian people are:

Geneticly inferior morons;
Useless scumbags;
Hopeless pigs;
Bogatyas peasants, etc. etc.

Re: spelling – if I was a paid commenter, I’d put in more efforts. Bummer!

webber
Guest

Charlie was just quoting you. Don’t you stand by your words?
Сорок два, in case you didn’t understand the answer yet.

Latefor
Guest

Webber, YES, I stand by my words! Do you and your friends stand by yours?

webber
Guest

I stand by every word I have written here, and have and will admit whenever I am wrong – here, in writing (this is something you have never done here).
I don’t stand by a single word anyone else has written, and no friend of mine has ever insulted the Hungarian people.
Nice try, though.

Guest

“Some Hungarian people” – yes, they are – like you!

PS:
So you believe there are “paid commenters” here?
Well …

webber
Guest

Wolfi, Latefor is such a great Hungarian patriot that Latefor lives in Australia and refuses to move back to Hungary….
And Latefor denounces “the West” (see Charile’s quote from Lf above), and enjoys living in Australia…
Quite a performance. Reminds me of communist millionaires.

Guest

She must have some problems – always referring to “thingalingis” – funny as hell!
Freud would have had a good time with her …
Since it seems I’m famous in certain circles here for “showing off” I’m gonna tell you a secret:

While most Hungarians yesterday did (not) go to the polling stations for the referendum my wife and I first used our little sauna and then had sex – that was much more satisfying than voting!
That was the best way to spend that rainy and cold afternoon …

Guest

Latefor is not a ‘paid commenter’!!! But we all know where she gets her ‘intsperation’!!

“Every morning I read the Hungarian Spectrum, the kuruc-info etc.
I asked you specifically to stop playing with your you -know- what, as it can cause serious blindness”

You haf to try and reed behind the crudytes to get the messige?

Nertmean? Innit?

Latefor
Guest
To Charlie/wolfi/webber: For your enjoyment: just another one of my brainy posts: “I’m perfectly aware of you cunning tactics, believe it or not, I’ll not lose sleep over it. All you are trying to do with your pathetic skills is to humiliate me because I don’t share your spiteful views about the Hungarian people and I don’t agree with every crap you happen to dish out almost daily. You simply want to drive me out of the so-called public domain. Some of you actually taken on the “attack dog” role. Can’t you see it by now that I will NOT be dissuaded from commenting? What an evil life you must be living! I just imagine you: getting up in a morning, starting your day with sharpening your knives and lighting your pathetic fire. (I’m holding my cross as I’m writing this post.) All you do is: provoke, attack, abuse and destroy the credibility of those who don’t share your twisted views. Why don’t you just let go and try to enjoy your miserable lives? How about taking the night off and go to see “The Tragedy of Men” at the National Theatre? You’d be better off playing with you thingilingi… Read more »
webber
Guest

Just get back to the wallaby on the barbie, have another lager, and leave Hungarians alone.

PALIKA
Guest

They are not each equally unpleasant. Webber has better manners and can write clearly. He feels some loyalty to Charlie who is pretty trying and we woud be better off without him. Our German friend likes to show off, but not beyond hope. Do not allow them to wear you down.

webber
Guest

Correction: I feel no “loyalty” to Charlie. I’ve never met him. I enjoy his banter here from time to time, but we’ve also argued fiercely in the past. (izlések és pofonok)

Latefor
Guest

@PALIKA – Yes, I agree with you. Webber has class, Charlie is malicious and bloodthirsty.

Bowen
Guest

What on earth are you talking about?? Yesterday was a magnificent victory for Fidesz!! 95% support! That’s better than some North Korean elections!! There were even fireworks over the parliament last night to celebrate the enormous success of the victorious referendum!! It was worth €40 million of Hungarian taxpayers’ money, don’t you agree?

petofi
Guest

Latefor,

face it, Hungarians are as important as a grasshopper’s fart in a windstorm-

PALIKA
Guest

You are clearly drunk or have taken leave of you senses

Reality Check
Guest

Look at your comment! You asked two questions. I answered the first.

Guest

Good way of putting it. I could add that the electorate are also not like ‘stooges’ acting as automatons for government processes and doing exactly as bidded. There are some things apparently that they feel greatly on.

I’d think the action on the referendum provides a great window for the opposition to follow up on. The people have given a signal that they should interpret carefully and follow through on with vigor and an attention to serendipity. They have a great responsibly now to take their cue. And in Magyarorszag it comes long and far in between. For Fidesz will be going into its satchel picking out more machinations to play with after this rebuff.

petofi
Guest

Latefor,

better heat up the bath-water…

Member

It tells us that they do not want to be extras in a Potemkin Village. It tells us that anyone who are not upset about Orban throwing millions of forints toward this nonsense are clearly individuals who cannot empty logic and common sense, and are not bothered to get informed about the EU.
Did you vote from Australia?

PALIKA
Guest

Good question but…….
It assumes that you have taken at face value the Anglo Saxon sanctimonious preaching about the will of the people and democratic righrs. Well, I suppose in the same way that the slaughter man and the supermarket butchery counter are both about the dead meat industry.

Mostly people vote in a referendum for all sorts of reasons but only rarely after they have understood the question and know how they want to answer it.

The Hungarian vote was on the one hand based on fear induced by a xenophobic campaign ( see Brexit) and on the other by an opposition that dare not spell out a different outcome but can mobiles thos who dislike OV to stay at home. That debate was won by the latter. Rejoice

Member

Jobbik is demanding that this outcome means Orban should resign. So Orban is going to amend the constitution as originally suggested by Jobbik. In this case, will Jobbik vote with Fidesz for the amendment or will they vote against as a vote of no confidence?

petofi
Guest

Orban resign?

He’d love to…if Pyutin would allow him!

Member

“It is now up to the opposition to make good use of this Fidesz defeat.”
WHAT OPPOSITION?

Reality Check
Guest

The opposition that is strong enough to have encouraged and campaigned for this defeat of Fidesz. Now they must unite.

Guest
While Éva publishes truthful articles, note the headlines of the BBC, which declares a resounding success for Orbán! http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37528325 Why has the BBC stated that Orbán has won in the referendum, when in fact it was invalid, as stated later in the same article. So why make “winning” as the main headline? It would be interesitng to know why the BBC contradicts itself, in the same article? The only BBC journalist I know of who would do this is Nick Thorpe – long time applogist and old friend of Orbán’s, married to a right-wing Hungarian wife, and a Budapest resident, who enjoys the benefits of funds for having 5 children, and whose every article is tinged with a subtle intent to persuade us that, no matter what, Orbi is not so bad ater all. For years Thorpe has done irreperable damage to Hungary by not alerting the world to the very real danger an unbalanced man like Orbán poses not just within Hungary, but now to the EU also, where he is doing his best to become a “big man” by stirring up conflict in his bid to divide and rule. Instead, he has aimed to persuade the world that… Read more »
Guest

And I just found this article, in the Guardian which has stated right off that the referendum is invalid- more shame on the BBC –

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/02/hungarian-vote-on-refugees-will-not-take-place-suggest-first-poll-results

webber
Guest

Reuters predicted the same before the referendum had even been held. Shame on both Reuters and BBC -there is something seriously wrong with both.
AFP and The Guardian got it right.

Guest

Same in Germany, the results are considered a defeat, everybody’s wondering how O will go on …

petofi
Guest

As for the American elections, Trump is going to win no matter what; the hopelessly beleaguered middle class will see to that. Why should they be the only one being destroyed? They’ll help the whole country on the road to perdition…

webber
Guest

Well, you don’t understand that, thank God. But hey-ho, nobody is perfect.

bimbi
Guest

REFERENDUM FAIL! ORBAN FAIL!

And now the lying starts. Children have the word for that:

Liat, liar! Your pants on fire. Now Orban can rush off to Brussels with his trousers ablaze and he will try to convince the EU of his great electoral success, But they already know how that turned out…

REFERENDUM FAIL! ORBAN FAIL!

webber
Guest

He doesn’t care about Brussels. He’s upset about what the Hungarian electorate have just done to him. He’ll want revenge, mark my words, especially on the people of Budapest. He’d dump ten thousand refugees on the city tomorrow, I’m sure, if it weren’t for the fact that he, his wife, and his children have homes in the town.

pappp
Guest
Orban will not give up. That’s for sure. And yes he will be plotting his revenge. He has three options. One: ratchet up tension as Duterte does it in the Philippines (where he enjoys a 90% approval rate). Two: he can purchase voters by throwing money at various important constituencies. Three: a combination of the two. That said, I also think Orban will choose mainly the former. That fits his personality and it’s cheaper (in terms of money). Orban gains the most enjoyment from vanquishing (or daydreaming about it) his enemies, but at the minimum humiliating them. He doesn’t care about pensioners that much. So this is why I’m also guessing he will stage something bolder than the inside job bomb on the Nagykörút. Does anyone even remember that? It apparently did not work and was too small, it did not scare people enough. I’m sure the KGB is now weighing options for a bigger job, it cannot be carried out by Hungarians they simply have no experience in such matters. This is why I think that the perpetrator at Nagykörút was either a Hungarian with lets say a French foreign legion background or a foreigner – I cannot domestic… Read more »
petofi
Guest

No, web, he’ll cut off all the trees in Budapest and make bonfires in Felcsut. (Roasting some socialists, don’t you know.)

Guest

Re:’ Liar Liar ‘

Big hit in the 60’s!!! This one too An ‘oldie’ ….

The torch song of perhaps a solitary pining Viktor…..a love affair dashed…;-)…

http://youtu.be/ngZh6ZSRoYg

Mihal
Guest

Also worth comparing: Elections results 2014 Fidesz+Jobbik 40.1%, now 39.93%. This means despite the disgusting campaign they convinced nobody who isn’t a supporter of the far-right. Well done Hungary!
Now the first step is up to the media (including the foreign press) to recognize the defeat and hit Orban now he’s on the floor.

webber
Guest

Actually – and this is KILLING Orban – some people who hate Fidesz and Jobbik voted “no” (I know one of them, as I’ve said repeatedly here). So that 39.93% doesn’t even equal the united support for Jobbik and Fidesz. It’s lower than that. God only knows how much lower, but my guess is the difference is significant.

pappp
Guest

Webber is right, 40% is not Fidesz and Jobbik together. Regardless of political views most people actually agreed with the government on the question. This is why Orban was confident he will score a victory since 90% on paper agreed with him. But from that 40% there are many who are not Fidesz or Jobbik supporters at all.

Fidesz has max. 30, but maybe only 22-5% support now.

This means that Fidesz can be defeated – provided that the the turnout at the next elections is about 60% or higher.

Member

I remember reading speculations that Orbán is using this referendum as an opinion poll (which, of course, it was, in effect) to choose his strategy: should the results indicate strong support, Fidesz would start organizing a new parliament election as soon as possible, otherwise Orbán would pull a Putin and have himself made President (with enhanced power, of course). Do you think this could be a realistic scenario?

webber
Guest

Anything is possible with a madman.

Guest

Yes. I think this is a likely scenario.

Whilst logic is hard to discern in a madman – I believe he was up to more than just having the pointless Threatenerendum – which, for me, partly explains the ‘98%’. Many many voters had to ostentatiously ‘demonstrably show’ that they were going to vote – for fear of risking their jobs – and their ‘positions’ in rural villages.

This is why the Two Tailed Dog’s ‘spoil-vote’ strategy worked so well. People could be seen turning up – but not their vote-spoiling.

I believe Orban was attempting to bolster himself up with the Threatenerendum – convincing himself he could ‘control’ the electorate – all the while Jobbik are breathing down his neck.

With his latest cognitive-dissonance responses, I believe he will go for a snap election – his plan all along.

Things are sliding downhill – he will feel he has to retrieve as much as possible – or miss the boat.

Guest

comment image

PALIKA
Guest

This result might throw up some interesting answers.
It proves the basics thesis that holding a referendum is neither the sign of a responsible or democratic decision making in government. In Hungary it turned out to be a verdict on OV. For him rather worrying so he will now change the constitution retrospectively. Presumably he will change the outcome of the next election if it goes against him, retrospectively. That is what I thought he would do when I heard him speak after he lost the 2002 election.
He will now mount a “counter revolution” in the EU. He does not understand the phrase but it stuck in his memory from the time of his KISZ training days.
As for government by referendum the results are often catastrophic if they impact on policy such as Brexit and more recently Columbia.

In my opinion there is a huge risk of the. EU falling apart. The inept way the migrant issue has been addressed is potentially catastrophic. It has contributed to Brexit.

webber
Guest

I agree in general with what you wrote above (not that it matters), but think you’ve overdone your case on referenda. It’s not fair to generalize based on Hu. and Britain. Referenda are an important part of the democratic process and a legitimate form of legislation in countries (such as Switzerland) and states (such as most W. American states) where they are regularly held and well regulated.
In my experience – and I have quite a lot – decisions made by referenda in such places are no worse and often much better than decisions made by legislatures.

PALIKA
Guest

Yes it is OK for the Swiss because it is part of their culture and most of the time they relate to smallish and parochial matters.
There is nothing particularly democratic about asking ignorant people to make emotion based decisions on intricate administrative issues that call for cool reflection and experience.
The jury in a criminal trial decides issues of guilt and that seems pretty democratic although I have never understood why the tricky issues of proof and evidence should be democracy based. What mitigates against the downside is that the jury work under the close guidance of judges who have the necessary expertise to guide them. You cannot micro manage a national referendum along those lines but of course nobody has tried because it might eliminate the principal perceived benefit which is that the result can be interpreted as the voice of the people. The mob that cheered on the executions in the French Revolution were also I suppose the voice of the people in a manner of speaking.

webber
Guest

I am convinced referenda could work anywhere, if correct rules are in place. I don’t say, however, that all states should have referenda. That’s for individual societies to decide.
With bad rules and regulations, and a lack of checks and balances, legislatures and referenda alike can be awful, regardless of how well-educated and informed everyone is.
As to rules: in places where referenda are regular, it isn’t “anything goes.” In most places foreign policy cannot be set by referenda, and any law that violates the constitution certainly cannot be brought by referendum.
I’ve seen Americans vote in referenda to raise their own taxes to support schools and other local initiatives, and I’ve seen them vote to make seat-belt wearing compulsory in one state. I’v seen them vote against some really atrocious legislation that got onto the ballot simply because sufficient signatures were gathered.
And I’ve seen state legislatures pass really lousy laws protecting special interest groups – effectively legalizing corruption.

Guest

And even in Switzerland …

I think I’ve written about this before. In those Alpine counties that don’t have any immigrants (like Appenzell) more people voted against immigration than in the big cities like Zürich or Genf where you see them every day.
Typical fear of the unknown – just as most Hungarian country bumpkins have never seen a black man or an Arab, except on tv!

Guest
Guest

London Calling!

Linda Horvath – below…..

The biggest threat to Christianity is not the ‘others’ in your midst but the Christians who don’t live it.

As I understand it.

Your views are compatible with the hate, intolerance and hypocrisy of so-called christian Hungarian preachers: Palfy of the RCs, The Hungarian Reformed Church, and Pastor Hegedus with his Horthy statue in plastic box.

Hungary is not a Christian country.

Period

webber
Guest

I didn’t see Linda Horvath expressing hatred. She expressed fear. That is not the same. She deserves the benefit of the doubt, as does everyone who voted “no.” This is not the time to alienate anyone.

Guest

As you are a ‘nuanced’ contributor webber,
I only said Linda’s views, as expressed in her single post, were compatible with the views expressed by the other ‘Christian’ preachers.

She has the right of reply.

I’d like to know how she (if indeed she is a she) interprets the parable of the Good Samaritan.

My challenge is not intended to alienate.

But it is robust!

Linda Horvath
Guest

I see your words calling me a hater because I prefer to live in a Christian based world rather than an Islam based world an indication of just how narrow minded you are. If Moslems would assimilate into our society they would be welcome! I see no difference between calling those of us who like our society the way it is haters and calling people of a given race, ethnicity, or religion by a disparaging word! You are the one who is spreading hate!

Reality Check
Guest

There are approximately 5500 Muslims in Hungary. They have assimilated quite well. Most of them speak Hungarian, they work in the Hungarian economy, send their kids to Hungarian schools and many have married non-Muslim Hungarians. They are an example that clearly contradicts the notion that Muslims can not integrate. I have even shared Palinka with a few in Budapest.

All the EU wanted was to add 1200 more. And driven by a fear campaign 3/4 of the population is in a panic about 1200. But apparently not in enough of a panic for the majority to vote in the referendum.

And the goal is integration, not assimilation. Do Jews in Hungary have to assimilate into the majority religion, Christianity? Of course not!

Simon Rippon
Guest

I, along with Eva and most people here, prefer to live in a world where everyone gets to choose for themselves which religion they personally wish to follow, Linda Horvath. What business is it of yours how your neighbours pray? In fact, freedom of religion is in the Hungarian constitution. There are plenty of Muslims who agree with us, who are willing to assimilate *and* tolerate difference, and who are not as narrow-minded as you. Did you know that there is a war in Syria and that innocent civilians are fleeing death and destruction? What would Jesus do?

webber
Guest

The best thing for the refugees from Syria would be to return home to a peaceful Syria. On that, I am sure everyone can agree.
Barring that, ensuring safe and clean refugee camps as near to Syria as possible, for eventual return, is a priority and a sort of minimum. Unfortunately, according to the article below, we are not even able to help those poor people that little. Conditions are awful for them in Turkey.
https://euobserver.com/migration/135279

Member

I lived in Detroit for 20 years and worked in a research hospital with many Moslems. They are some of the nicest, kindest people I know. The ones you are afraid of Linda Horvath are the minority and are not true Moslems, just as the haters in Hungary (and elsewhere) who call themselves Christian are not true Christians.

Observer
Guest

I have lived in the Middle East, among other places, and can assure you guys you don’t want to live there.
Somewhat assimilated, or small minority groups are OK, but large, insular communities of very different cultures pose grave problems.

pappp
Guest
I really liked a sentence which was said by Gabor Török whom I otherwise don’t follow. He said Minden politikusnak egyszer kitelik az ideje. In Hungarian at least to me it sound inspiring and strangely moving. It means something like the allotted time of every politician at one time is up (must come to an end). I do feel that for Orban this countdown has begun. For those who were not in Hungary in the last few months the enormity and all-encompassing nature of the campaign is hard to put into words. The campaign was literally everywhere, Fidesz and the government used any and all means necessary. Fidesz simply could not have spent more energy and money on it, it was so exhaustive (and exhausting too). It was unlike anything we have seen re any political campaign or election. Despite this and the fact that actually most Hungarians agree with the basic idea in the referendum question Orban failed to bring about a valid referendum, he wasn’t even close. This is a clear defeat. This means and it’s clear to the average people too that Orban is also mortal. It’s a great new development. Also an anti-Fidesz citizen simply could… Read more »
Guest

I have to agree with you pappp, thanks!

My wife also said this might be the beginning of the end.

I remember a song “Tme is running out” … (by Steve Winwood, nit the Muse song):
Soldiers walking in the street
Giving off a lot of heat
There just ain’t enough to eat
If you’re poor, you’ve got no meat

Advertising in the sky
They like to stick it in your eye
So mad it will make you cry
All the things that you don’t need

Maybe that describes the Hungary of the future?
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/steve+winwood/time+is+running+out_20131278.html

Guest

Re: ‘Hungary of the future’

And my humble kulfoldi request to always have Magyarorszag keep their eyes on the prize… It’s priceless…
Your man your song …

http://youtu.be/G3onnJuBS18

Guest

Thanks for that, wrfree!

And in return (not too much OT I hope, found it this morning):

The writer, David Camp, also covered other topics in the feature: he asked if Springsteen will get involved in the current presidential campaign, as he campaigned for John Kerry in 2004 and Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012. Springsteen indicated that he probably wouldn’t, but added, “when the times have felt very drastic, I feel like, ‘Well, I gotta put my two cents in.’ So we’ll see what happens.”
Some interesting news on “The Boss”!
http://wzlx.cbslocal.com/2016/09/06/bruce-springsteen-invasive-surgery/

Guest

That operation was a courageous decision, wasn’t it? A slam dunk operation no way. He’ll take the chances to continue to ply his art and trade.

Good to have him. He who always ably shows how visions and realities come together or fall just short in the quest for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness here and around the world among individual lives in context of the political life around them. His ‘Badlands’ was the anthem expounding on soul-sucking oppression with an attempt of release.

I’ll never forget my friend showing me his first record saying hey this is a guy to watch. He is going to be famous. Hah what an understatement. Viktor can’t grab him there!…;-)…

Andrew J Chandler
Guest

Can we get a refund on the HUF 40 million we all paid from our taxes? I didn’t get a vote, but I feel like I am subsidising this government twice over, once through the EU contributions paid over the years to a government which obviously want the Euros but not the responsibilities that membership of the EU and the Schengen area bring, and once as a non-voting expat in Hungary. What an absurd waste of public money! Hungary is turning into Ruritania!

Bowen
Guest

It’s a lot more than HUF 40 million. It’s more like HUF 12 billion (perhaps the government should put a sign up in every village, detailing every forint spent, just like they do with EU projects?)

Of course, that’s just the sum we know about. It won’t include all the ‘hidden’ expenses, like bribing villagers with potatoes, text messages to citizens, cold-calling, or even the big celebratory firework display over parliament at 10pm last night.

Guest

Of course Andrew wanted to write 40 million € …

And I’m also wondering about the hidden expenses.

Bowen
Guest

The inevitable Orban/Hitler’s Downfall video.

webber
Guest

Charlie – I owe you an apology. Some months ago we had a heated argument about the change I said I noticed in public opinion in Hungary. You said, based on what you heard in W. Hungary, that Fidesz was still the most popular. I said that was ridiculous, because everywhere I went I noticed hatred of Fidesz. Though I travel a lot, it’s never to W. Hungary – and yet I ridiculed you.
Well, the referendum results suggest that the two counties in the far W. are the most pro-Fidesz. They are so different from the rest of the country that they appear to be an anomaly. Your impressions were absolutely right. I was wrong. Apologies.

Guest

Maybe a psychologist could analyse this anomaly?

The Western part of Hungary has more contact with the rest of Europe and the world in general, more tourists and of course much more money!

Why are so many people here afraid of a thousand foreigners – do they really believe the loathing and hate propaganda by the Hungarian government?

As I’ve written before my wife got really angry reading on facebook what some of her (ex-) friends wrote – especially those having family working in DACH as “economic migrants”!

Btw these women are also very “Christian” – maybe that’s part of the problem? Or is it a general frustration (because people in neighbouring Austria make so much more money …) that is looking for someone to blame – even if they are totally innocent?

webber
Guest

There are more tourists, per capita, in Budapest than anywhere else in the country, so that doesn’t appear to be a cause.
But for sure, people in those counties can travel to Austria very easily.
I bet Fidesz is sending people out to the local Gauleiter to find what was done to get people to the ballot boxes.

Member

My wife thinks it is because it is the most heavily conservative Catholic part of the country or as we say in our family “bigoted Catholic”

Guest

Re: ‘Why are so many people here afraid of a thousand foreigners – do they really believe the loathing and hate propaganda by the Hungarian government?’

If I recall unless the government refashioned the topography of the area the entire place is one of bucolic peace. There’s plenty of greenery and does not have a stifling density of population. Life then would perhaps be perceived as being ‘good’. I can only wonder what they all thought when they saw pictures of say Lesbos under ‘attack. They certainly would fear then for the rural serenity they enjoy. Taken from them in a flash.

And I’d think religion used as a tool has alot to do with it as well. The small churches look perhaps inconsequential in context of the environment but what emanates on the ‘pious’ populations has been going on powerfully for centuries. The population experiencing those circumstances then follow the practice of ‘obedience’ towards the guardians of their souls. It is really almost acts like an automatic conditioned response.

Guest

Thanks webber – you’re a gent!

When you live in such a village – even just for the duration of a holiday, which we do less often at the moment because my partner is studying for a nursing degree, then the support for Fidesz is almost palpable.

‘Fidesz’ and ‘Orban’ are never far from the surface whether you are in the village shop or taking part in a village day.

It’s also intimidating to a visitor because you know that any conversation will be heavily conflicted with a villager – who cuts you immediately if you say anything negative about Fidesz, or Orban.

Eva has given me such a knowledge of Hungary that I am infinitely more knowledgeable of what is going on – and villagers don’t dare engage me!

With my partner interpreting, many have ‘cut me loose’!!

Guest

Hehe you know cch you are someone then ‘fit to be tied’, eh in those kis falus? I’ll never forget my nagypapa the first time I saw him. Looked as ancient as the Hapsburgs especially with that bajusz. I said man I’ m looking at history here! I asked if the Archduke gave him a card or something…;-)…. When there was something of discussion going on I kind of got the impression he thought my westernized urban life two cents wouldn’t help. ‘Hat nyugati varosi fiu vagy!’ Megyunk a kocsmaba!’ My introduction to Magyar rural life’….;-)….

Observer
Guest

@wolfi7777 …..Maybe a psychologist could analyze…

My guess is that the traditional “nemzeti”, aka inferiority complex plays a great role here.
As noted above, the Hungarians there have many close ties to Austria, mainly working there, hence they are in large numbers subordinated to Austrians. The despised migrants make these people feel higher on the social ladder.
Secondly, they witness the much better standards of living of the Austrians

In response to these factors the Hungarian national psyche would not emulate and strive to catch up, but would rather generates a lot of envy and frustration, which is compensated with the grandstanding, malice and aggression supplied in abundance by the Orban regime. And they like this.

Guest

Yes, and maybe the old inferiority complex:
We are as good as the Austrians (in their own opinion better, of course …) but they make much more money – and it’s been like this for how many hundred years?

We have similar problems in Germany with (some) awful East Germans, especially today. The crazy side of this: Both our prime minister and president are East Germans – but they’re in a small majority almost …

Istvan
Guest
Dániel Mogács seems the big winner, possibly now Hungary will have eternal life, world peace, one work day per week, two sunsets a day, free beer and low taxes. I had to laugh this morning, I am at our county home in rural Wisconsin, and the local news cast made a reference to a new political force in Hungary, the Two-tailed Dog Party. It was followed by a story about Alzheimer’s disease and a local treatment center that used supposed innovative practices. It made perfect sense to me and I am sure the news anchor probably would be hard pressed to locate Hungary on a map. Lajos Kosa, seems to be striking out rather wildly against all opposition forces following the referendum. His reference to Imre Thököly and other collaborators with the Ottoman occupation was chilling yet completely humorless. Clearly Kosa does not grasp the absurdity of the situation Fidesz got it self into by continuing with the referendum following the EU backing off of refugee quotas. Orban could have walked away from all of this claiming the goals of the referendum had been achieved once Juncker publicly backed off the quotas several weeks ago. But for a true Fascist… Read more »
webber
Guest

Kósa has fewer brains than your average Fidesznik, but he must be feeling desperate because his hometown, Debrecen, which has long been a safe Fidesz bastion, did not meet the threshold for the referendum despite very heavy work there by Kósa’s underlings, including a nasty interruption of an opposition demonstration.
Orbán must have gone ape on everyone around him. They wasted such an enormous amount of money and energy, and all they did was show little people that they are no longer invincible.

Guest

Yes, webber, that’s one of the few good things coming out of this unbelievable mess of hatred that Fidesz produces!

But we don’t know how they will continue – I have the feeling it might get even worse …

We have a saying in German:
Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, dann lebt’s sich völlig ungenuiert!

Loosely translated:

Once you’ve lost your reputation, you have nothing left to lose.

Member

Orban has definitely been showing signs of the mental breakdown that is often associated with dictators for some time now. He is much more important to himself than are the people he rules. He will have his castles, etc.

petofi
Guest

Kosa–no brains but an awfully nice motorbike…

Observer
Guest
Entertaining old piece: “We fought a glorious war of independence and paid with heavy casualties. We won! But we have many battles to fight still, therefore, we haven’t won yet! However, we defeated the defeatism and the selfishness, the regime of lies! We won! But defeatism and selfishness still exists in those who leeching on society consume our future and lie about our acquired rights. So we still have not won! But despite all this, but won! True, sometimes we failed, but because the fatherland can not be in opposition, even we won then too! For we always win! We win since we say always and everywhere that “we won!” We won and we shall win, we shall convince my society that they win! ..Soon somebody will win against us. But this somebody will not be a winner, because we are always the winners! And if our winning depends on the rules, then the we shall, in order to win, change the rules in a winning way! We won! Wait ……… Who? what ? …. what medicine ? …. to take it? …. what doctor? Isn’t it 2011 now ?! No ? ..damn, this is something I always forget …… Read more »
Guest

To Orban it’s just a small flesh wound!

https://youtu.be/zKhEw7nD9C4

Observer
Guest

Just keep cutting ……

Guest

Pyrrhus: “If we are victorious in one more battle …, we shall be utterly ruined.”

pappp
Guest
What’s interesting is that Győr and Szombathely were so pro-Fidesz too. Both towns used to be treated as anomalies in otherwise consistently pro-Fidesz regions probably due to their industrial heritage which allowed MSZP and leftist coalitions to win a few times. (I’m not talking about SZDSZ – the party was popular in Western Hungary when it was anti-communist, when it became obvious that it was and urban, liberal party and would work together with MSZP it was dropped like a hot potato). Győr is very well to do, lots of a jobs, a real success story in Hungary. Yet, they seem to have blended in the conservative background. This regions used to be very conservative even before the WWII (and even though suffrage was not universal at all, so comparison is a bit difficult) so historical patterns tend to repeat themselves. My guess for Győr (Szombathely is still a struggling place) is that the well to do working class (which in Hungary means the middle class), such as people working at Audi and the like become conservative and right-wing over time and became totally alienated from mainstream liberal, left-wing politics which seems or them for urban intellectuals. They have issues… Read more »
Guest

You know your comment brings up an interesting conjecture.

It’s evident that Orban has been bruised in some parts of the electorate. But what if the opposition by hook and crook does manage to eke through a narrow win in the upcoming election ? I thought Szigetvari’s point was significant on the question of what kind of government then would follow. Could the government truly operate?

It stands to reason Fidesz as ‘loser’ would still be a formidable opponent in the workings of coalitions etc within government. I realize that this looks into the future but the country will still see that a major restructuring effort would have to go off to make a government that can ‘work’. Another tough question if elections are perhaps won by an opposition. One problem perhaps goes away but others by the bushel come back on the rebound. Just not so sure Magyarorszag has a handle on that one.

pappp
Guest
I think such opposition government would be short lived and it could not hold Fideszniks truly accountable. Orban and his billionaire friends would just go into retirement (for a while). The feeling of injustice is one of the strongest feelings. People demand justice: the conviction of the corrupt top Fideszniks. I just don’t see leftist parties being able to engineer such a process and apparently the voters don’t either. They somehow sense that there is a collusion between Fidesz and leftist parties which would duly end up in shady backroom deals and letting top looters like Rogan or Lazar or Sesztak (and their factions) off the hook. That said no opposition can work from the assumption that it would be unable to govern and would anyway fail soon (like the Radicova government in Slovakia). It should try. There is no telling what would happen if Fidesz was to start crumbling. The corruption of the top people is so thorough that I think anything is possible including physically eliminating each other for fear of talking about their criminal activities. For me one thing is sure: boring, peaceful development like that seen in Denmark or Austria (or even Slovakia for that matter)… Read more »
pappp
Guest

Felcsút seems to be proud of its famous son. It had a 64.1% turnout (97.7% No votes).

PALIKA
Guest
Clearly they never met the boss. Perhaps they are grateful for that, so they went to vote. It is difficult to run any country. It helps to have a strong opposition that is an alternative government. In the UK that was part of the secret of its admirable success story. Decades of governments ruled by giants of recent history. Churchill, Attlee, Eden, Bevan, Bevins, Gaitskell, Heath, Thatcher to mention but a few. Now we have in the UK a government of pecularly low level of ability. At the same time a number of opposition parties that are not capable of providing any credible opposition. This is following after the reign of a PM whose level of competence is disappointing, to put it mildly. The direction of his successors is apparently in some doubt but only by the naive. There is a breakdown of ability in government and of the post WW2 political consensus. Sloganising has replaced the formulation of clearly defined argument. Populist nonsense is elevated to being a manifestation of democracy, which is of course miles from the truth. Please accept it from me. The English no longer represent any prospective world order I want to share. The EU… Read more »
webber
Guest

Oh, they met the boss. And a lot of his people. You can count on that.
There are some reports online – journalists who went to Felcsút to try to talk with people. Impossible. Everyone was terrified – and I mean that. Scared witless, and unwilling to say a word. The one fellow who was complaining in public some years ago was murdered. He was a shepherd. His murder was never solved. Imagine that – the Prime Minister has a house in and a palace near the village. His father lives there. The place has CCTV from every angle on every corner. There are TEK and other security people all over the place 24/7. And the murder could not be solved. They just could not find any evidence. Darnedest thing. The shepherd’s family has been shut up now, too. Afraid to talk.

webber
Guest

Orbán in Felcsút – a village of under 1,700 people with a stadium he built that can seat 3,500. Every adult in that village knows Orbán in some way, you can be sure of that.
comment image

Guest

The magazine SPIEGEL reports that O wants to change the constitution again (for the umpteenth time …) – however no retails yet …

Maybe a topic for tomorrow or “the day after”?

webber
Guest
Yes, he said he would before the referendum was held. Then, when it became clear that the referendum might not be valid, he said he would even if it was invalid if a clear majority voted “no.” He is likely to get Jobbik’s support for the change he wants to introduce – some amendment to block the settling of refugees in Hungary is what everyone is expecting. Do you know of any other constitution in the world that might have such a small-hearted provision? Already the Hungarian constitution is a work of midgets – and the name! Instead of using the Hungarian word for Constitution – Alkotmány -, Orbán’s legal advisors chose the word Alaptörvény, which is just a Hungarian mirror translation of the German Grundgesetz (Basic Law). Clearly they thought Germany was the model, and that the German word for Germany’s current constitution should be made Hungarian to distinguish it from all other Hungarian constitutions. And this just shows that the idiots in Fidesz who drafted the Alaptörvény (Grundgesetz) had no idea whatsoever that the German constitution was imposed (politely “approved”) by the occupying allies on W. Germany after WWII, with the idea that at some point in the… Read more »
PALIKA
Guest

Yes, he said so yesterday. He wants to validate the invalid result retrospectively. I heard him at midnight on election night when he lost in 2002. I was an innocent to OV’s mindset then and I was surprised that the impression was he did not really wanted to accept the result.
He had a problem then. He and the MSZP had agreed to cheat the result to keep Csurka from gaining ground. The MSZP were better at cheating so OV lost. His frustration was understandable since he was the outgoing government he had the responsibility, through Pinter to run the election. He could hardly complain that the result was rigged against him without his mate not knowing about it.

webber
Guest
I do not think that story is quite right… Let me guess – you heard it from a Fidesz man? Really, do you think Pinter would have his job now if that were true? I have more solid reasons for thinking it’s Fidesznik smoke. You see, I met Csurka after that election (an interview ) and he talked about it. He said it was Fidesz and only Fidesz, and he could not quite understand it because he was prepared to go into coalition with them, as Torgyán had. But they wanted it all – every vote – and so stabbed him in the back and ruined their own chances. He even wrote an article saying as much in that weekly he ran (Magyar Demokrata). Your version sounds like just another one of the stories Fidesz has been telling more recently about OTHER parties busing in and buying off voters in the past two elections. In every such case, it is Fidesz that has done it (I’ve met former rural Fideszniks who told me, sheepishly, that they voted in my district and liked it). You see, Orban and cronies regularly call “Foul! Foul!” and point at others when they are committing… Read more »
PALIKA
Guest

I do not remember the source in 2002. But it was then that I was told. It may not have been more than speculation. But the point was that the result of the election was a result of electoral fraud connived at by both MSZP and FIDESZ to keep Csurka out. Fidesz under cheated, apparently. The result was a surprise to most of us. Csurka was hardly a reliable news source. A rather flaky writer of very curious history and ideological development.
Horn’s book Colopok mentions how they, the MSZMP saved/promoted the guy. He was not then apparently the mouthpiece of the luny fringe. That came a little later.

webber
Guest

Oh, Csurka’s obsessions went a bit farther back (his paper wasn’t Demokrata, it was Magyar Fórum, wasn’t it?). András Mink wrote an excellent article covering the history of Csurka’s nuttiness in Beszélő a few decades ago, based on documents from communist days.
He was certainly flaky, but seemed very reliable to me on little details. As long as the word “Jews” didn’t slip into the conversation, he seemed very sane and very clear. In that obsession alone, he was like Zsolt Bayer. Unlike Bayer, Csurka actually had talent, and I never heard or read him swear – not once.
Your story still sounds like Fidesz smoke. It is just so typical of them, these days. But you seem sincere.

PALIKA
Guest

But it was not these days, I was told then, in 2002

webber
Guest

Yes, but the pattern is the same as these days, and I don’t believe they have changed. It’s why I mentioned the panel-proli lie – that was back then, too. They said it, then Orbán attributed it to Medgyessy in the debate. A bald-faced lie, but Medgyessy called O on it and O looked confused. It was just embarrassing. After four years in power, O had already lost his ability to understand that the truth was not what he said at any given moment. That’s what having yes-men surround you for four years does. But the lack of balance was too great for that alone to be the explanation.
And then O disappeared after the election for some time. Just simply disappeared. Serious mental disturbance there.
And Csurka was blind drunk that election night. I don’t know what he had been drinking, but he could hardly speak to the camera.

webber
Guest

It’s like when a kid with something brown all over his face shouts “Someone has eaten all the chocolate!” That’s what Fidesz people have been doing for a long time, only sometimes they remember to wipe their faces before they shout.

Gyula Keleti
Guest

Viktor Orbán decided to change the constitution so he will. He is the leader and he can do so this is why he is the leader.

And the referendum is only formally invalid. Almost all people supported the government that is the most important thing. When was any government so popular that 99% of the people agreed with it?

Nobody can stop him. Not the voters, surely not the EU, nobody.

Yes, V.V. Putin could but why would he do so? The Basic Law will change.

LIberals you should’ve staged a revolution if you wanted power. But you did not. Instead the prime minister did so in 2010.

Viktor Orban is the prime minister and he is not handing power over to liberals or communists. Ever. Don’t even dream about it.

He is a hero and he will defend Hungary from liberals. This is his mission. Hungary belongs to Hungarians.

webber
Guest

You are hilarious! Was that a parody, or are you serious?
A majority of Hungarians refused to vote in his nutty referendum… so, is he going to protect Hungarians from the majority of Hungarians? How does that work?

The referendum is “only formally invalid.” Is there any other sort of invalid? Is there such a thing as “informally invalid” in the Hungarian legal system? It’s quite a unique idea. Unheard of in the history of Western legal thought.

About formalities – according to the “Basic Law”, Viktor Orbán cannot change the constitution at will. He needs a 2/3s majority in Parliament to do it. Fidesz no longer has a 2/3 majority (Oh, those pesky Hungarians who keep voting against Fidesz in by-elections! Orban must protect Hungarians from Hungarians).

So, how is he going to do it? Well, he’ll have to get another party to help him, won’t he? That will be Jobbik, I suppose. The party some Fideszniks have called Fascist in the press… (Fidesz MEP Gy. Schöpflin, for one – look it up!) What’s Orbán going to give Jobbik in return for their support?

webber
Guest

And since when can Hungarians not be liberals? I mean, they can be conservatives, and democrats, and republicans, and royalists, and communists (as Orbán was – he said so: look that up too) and all sorts of other things. How is it impossible for Hungarians to be liberals? That, too, is unique.

Guest

You know leader = Führer in German?

Yes, you’re absolutely right, O behaves like the Führer. thank you for telling us!

Ferenc
Guest

OK, the referendum failed, and now what?
Do the representatives in the European parlament and all Europeans know/understand how it was held, what information was presented by the current government to the people in Hungary? Don’t think so.
What about plainly translating all that information (i.e.posters/folders/videos etc) and supplying that to each and every member of the European parlament, just get them up to date about how things are going actually in Hungary.
It should be good translations (no additional opinions), so all Europeans who don’t understand Hungarian can make up their mind.

Ferenc
Guest

Additional to the translation could be indluded the plain figures, i.e.number of prints, costs of each item, etc.
Just so everybody interested and not understanding Hungarian is well informed about all.

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