A possible opposition election strategy for 2018

Celebrations of the sixtieth anniversary of the Hungarian revolution against the Rákosi regime and the Soviet occupying forces have already begun, with apparently thousands of young people, torches in hand, marching along the bank of the Danube on the Buda side. This march has become something of a symbol of the revolution. As a participant, I must admit, I viewed this event as a rather insignificant episode in the revolution with practically no tangible consequences for the course of events that followed. The real celebration will take place tomorrow which, I’m sure, will be lavish. How historically accurate is another matter.

Although the topic of today’s post is the current state of the opposition and my views on what the opposition parties should do under the circumstances, I first want to mention that if one goes to hirvonal.hu, my favorite search program for Hungarian news, there are at least as many articles on October 23, 2006 as on the events of October 1956. Almost all of the articles about the prime minister who gave orders to shoot at grandmothers (?) have appeared in pro-government publications. Distortion of the events of the fiftieth anniversary seems to be just as important for this government as the systematic falsification of 1956.

Two months ago György Bolgár invited me to join his program “Megbeszéljük” on KlubRádió. He wanted my opinion on “what should be done” to get rid of Viktor Orbán’s illiberal, oppressive, highly undemocratic regime. I began by saying that first I would like to note what I think the opposition parties shouldn’t be doing. Of course, what I was talking about was the constant bickering and attacking each other in public instead of closing ranks against the governing powers. I added that it is useless to wait for some unknown person to surface and save the nation from Viktor Orbán. Nor can one rely on civic group leaders who have no political experience. For better or worse, one must work with the existing politicians. Ideally, the really small parties (Együtt, PM, MLP) should disappear as separate entities and they and their often quite able leaders (Gergely Karácsony, Tímea Szabó, Benedek Jávor, and Péter Juhász, for example) should join the other two larger parties in order to form an entirely new party. One single party with one party leader. I haven’t changed my mind on that score, with one possible exception. Today I can imagine temporary cooperation with Gábor Vona’s Jobbik because I’m more and more convinced that without them there is no way to remove the Fidesz regime. I think that Gábor Vona is a great deal less dangerous than Viktor Orbán.

At the moment the situation among the opposition parties is far from ideal. Take the demonstration organized by Péter Juhász (Együtt), Ákos Hadházy (LMP), and Benedek Jávor (PM). They didn’t work with the other parties to organize a massive demonstration for freedom of the press. Not surprisingly, the crowd was much smaller than expected. But that was not enough. Péter Juhász, on the spot, announced a demonstration for tomorrow morning to disrupt Viktor Orbán’s speech in front of the parliament. He said he had already purchased 1,000 whistles, which he plans to use throughout the speech. That’s bad enough, but his demonstration coincides with the large demonstration organized by the other left-of-center opposition parties to be held on Lujza Blaha tér. Isn’t it funny that a party whose name Együtt means “together” is the only one, apart from the always go-it-alone LMP, that refuses to join the others? Együtt has the support of perhaps 1% of the electorate. Where will that lead? Nowhere, of course.

Moreover, what followed from LMP was beyond the pale. I am more or less accustomed to the intransigence of LMP’s Bernadett Szél, but her latest statement was more than I could swallow. On ATV’s Start program the other day she said, “If the people have to choose between the return of the world before 2010 and the present situation, on the basis of the two earlier elections they will vote for the latter. On the left, the same people say the same thing, and the emblematic character of that side is Ferenc Gyurcsány. It is not our fault that the opposition hasn’t been able to get renewed in six years.” Egon Rónay of ATV was stunned. Since then, Szél made it clear that her party is unwilling to sit down with the others to discuss the possibility of primaries, as promoted by PM. And naturally LMP, which at the moment doesn’t have enough followers to get into parliament, will run alone against the gigantic Fidesz political machine. Good luck.

szel2

Bernadett Szél

I foresee the possibility of yet another split in LMP. It is all very well that András Schiffer, whose unbending attitude on LMP’s election strategy already ruptured the party once, is gone. But Szél is just as rigid as Schiffer was. Taking Schiffer’s place in the hierarchy as co-chairman is Ákos Hadházy, a moderate who considers the removal of the Orbán regime his foremost task. I can’t see him going along with the insane ideas of Bernadett Szél.

Meanwhile, the pro-government publications are having a jolly good time watching the fights in opposition ranks. Lokál, the latest Fidesz-financed free newspaper available at metro stations, called Szél’s attack on Gyurcsány a “catfight.”

Magyar Nemzet only yesterday devoted an article to the attempts of the opposition parties to organize themselves into a coherent political force. György Zsombor, the author of the article, noted that PM, the only party which is gung-ho on primaries, also demands a guaranteed income and four-day work weeks, ideas that will not meet with the approval of the other parties. The consultations in which, with the exception of LMP, all “democratic” parties will be represented, including the so-called Balpárt (Left party, a kind of Hungarian Linke), will take place on October 24.

In advance of that consultation Demokratikus Koalíció celebrated the fifth anniversary of its founding. Ferenc Gyurcsány gave a speech in which he outlined one way to solve the predicament of the opposition parties. The speech itself can be viewed on ATV’s website. What he described strongly resembles my ideal scenario. The smaller parties should give up their independence and their able leaders should find positions within a new united party. For example, he specifically mentioned Gergely Karácsony, currently mayor of Zugló (District XIV), as a possible mayoral candidate at the next municipal election in Budapest. The thrust of his argument is that the paramount consideration today is the removal of Viktor Orbán. To achieve that goal differences must temporarily be set aside. Once democracy is restored there will be plenty of opportunity to debate inside and outside of parliament. Just as in 1956 Sándor Rácz, chairman of the Greater Budapest Workers’ Council, and Cardinal József Mindszenty were on the same side because the main task was the overthrow of the dictatorship. On all other issues they most likely held diametrically opposed views.

In theory this is a logical description of what should happen, but in practice it will be very difficult to achieve. One of the biggest hurdles is the conflicted state of MSZP. I don’t know much about the inner workings of the party, but I suspect that some members of the leadership still believe that MSZP can take on Fidesz alone or at least that their party should be the leading force in any future coalition. Then there are those who cannot forgive Ferenc Gyurcsány for leaving MSZP and establishing his own rival party. So they don’t want to work with him for the common good.

And finally, a few words about the way I see Jobbik’s position at the moment. I’m not the only commentator who thinks that Fidesz as a government party of practically unlimited powers is far more dangerous than Jobbik, which has shed its far-right rhetoric and is in opposition. Apparently, followers of Jobbik hate Fidesz just as much as the voters of MSZP and DK do. Jobbik followers boycotted the referendum on October 2 in just as great numbers as others did. At the moment, Viktor Orbán calls Jobbik and its leaders traitors and accuses them of blackmail. I don’t think it is in Vona’s interest to play second-fiddle to Fidesz in the forthcoming months. In my opinion, it would not be a total waste of time to put out feelers for a chat with Gábor Vona. I know that this is sacrilege as far as some of the opposition parties are concerned. I think of DK especially. But I still believe that creating a temporary alliance for the sake of toppling Viktor Orbán might be justified.

October 22, 2016
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Joe Simon
Guest

Vienna, 1956. “Wir sind Studenten. Helft uns.”
A group of Hungarian students protesting in front of the American Embassy.
The US took some thirty thousand refugees and then shot its doors.
Yet, in terms of cold war politics the US benefited most from the Hungarian uprising. A relevant comment on the present migrant crisis that HS writes so much about.

webber
Guest

Joe Simon – How did you get to the US? And why? You’ve repeatedly expressed your disapproval of the US here. It’s a big world. Why there? Since you dislike it so much, why don’t you move back to Hungary?

Janko
Guest

You do realise if Orbán is voted out of power, will blame Soros or Clinton for rigging the election, declare a state of emergency and the election invalid. Then in the new election he will receive 80% of the votes.

Sure he would become an international pariah, but that is still better for him and Fidesz than to be out of power .

Doy
Guest

A very realistic scenario.

Arthur Klein
Guest

Yes!

Member

First and foremost, let’s vote out Orbán, then we will see.

Observer
Guest

Amen!

Rivarol
Guest

We are with you.

Member

Interesting polemic. I didn’t imagine a scenario where Jobbik could ever be supported, but this does make sense. They should be used a temporary lever; dislodge the rock, then, throw away the iron bar that smashed it.

Guest

Then on that perhaps the opposition should be wary of that iron bar being picked up by Vona. If it would be a successful implement he’d be foolish not to use it after the temp ‘alliance’ falls away.
Arguably if the left can’t handle Fidesz how could it fare handling say an opportunistic Jobbik. Shaking hands with those guys could put staph infections all around.

Doy
Guest

I would be more cautious about using iron bars. It reminds me of the darkest period of history.

e-1956
Guest

Just let us ignore the disinformation flow and study the real dark nature of jobbik.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&q=vona%20iszlam&oq=vona%20iszlam&rlz=1C1NHXL_enUS710US710&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.6751j0j9

Member

@ Eva Balogh

A little correction.

XIV = Zugló, mayer Gergely Karácsony
XIII = Angyalföld, mayer Zoltán Tóth

Thank you for your excellent work.

Doy
Guest

Another little correction. Mayor. Not mayer.

Member

Thanks, stupid me.

webber
Guest

I think that if Jobbik were able to form a government, Jobbik would very much appreciate the current constitutional arrangements, would not democratise, and using the overwhelming power invested in government by Fidesz’s constitution Jobbik seems quite likely to take Hungary out of NATO, and out of the EU, against the will of the majority of Hungarians.

Tactically voting alongside Jobbik in Parliament is perfectly okay. Anything more than that seems very risky to me.

That said, Orban’s state t.v. now regularly runs shows in which various guests call Jobbik people neo-Nazis.

If nothing else, this is evidence that Fidesz no longer believes it can control Jobbik or that Jobbik would be willing to be a partner in a coalition government.

Doy
Guest

I would never go along with Jobbik. As all the democratic parties promised barely a few monts ago. Going with them means walking hand-in-hand with Hitler.

Guest

Yeah it would be walking on hot coals. I’d think Vona’s new occupation of political ‘average guy’ celebrity indicates that he’s learning that it might pay to keep a sheen and shine on his apples. I’d suggest he doesn’t want his apples to be say ‘u-pick’. But he’d rather sell by bushels of his own choosing. He wants to control ‘point of sale’ in any endeavor he wants to partake in.

Rivarol
Guest

My parents are holocaust survivors. Never with Jobbik!

webber
Guest

OT – is it just in Hungary? This morning Google is displaying a Hungarian flag with the center cut out. It is touching, in a way.
If it’s only in Hungary – fair enough. If Google is doing this worldwide, that is very interesting indeed.

Ferenc
Guest

The google HU flag seems only in google.hu, so for who wants to see it outside of Hungary you’ll need this link: https://www.google.hu/

An Aussie Wanker
Guest

All of you are naive. These are the two options to stop this virus or parasites:

1. Cut of their nutrition (funds/money).

2. Start another 1956.

The question is what will come first? The running out of funds? Or the Hungarian people reaching their limit and overcoming their fears?

Doy
Guest

Hungarians will not reach their limits of fear. They will cast their votes for Fidesz in 2018 in an even greater numbers than in 2014.

An Aussie Wanker
Guest

Only time will tell.

Observer
Guest

I bet you fidesz will get the lowest number of votes in the past 15 years. This has been their trend and it seems to continue, e g. they lost all by elections, incl. a stronghold.

webber
Guest

LMP – Fidesz’s dog. In local by-elections, LMP was given space in Fidesz headquarters to do its work.

An Aussie Wanker
Guest

No political party or parties will win the 2018 election and even if they did nobody would know about it since the results would display something else. Not worth worrying about the little things,

facetuber
Guest

LMP is not a real party.

It’s a Russian-style pseudo-party which is maintained by Fidesz in order to attract some liberal-leftist votes which in the absence of LMP would likely end up with liberal-leftist parties opposed to Fidesz.

Maybe not all of them are left-leaning, there exists the alt-right too which is sometimes environmentally conscious, but let’s say 3% out of the around 5% which LMP could hope to receive on its best day. Taking away 2-3% from your opposition is worth every penny.

LMP will survive because Fidesz will make sure it will survive.

Observer
Guest

Looks like it. No credible explanation was ever given how did LMP finance their first campaign.
Harsh rhetoric aside, when it comes to action the LMP play always benefits Fidesz.
The anti corruption drive of A.Hadhazi hurts, interesting to how this plays out.

Member

I think Dr. Hadhazy is different. He is genuinely combatting corruption and injustice and I hope he will prove more visionary in making common cause with the rest of the democratic opposition.

Observer
Guest

I also think so, but he has to prevail in the party formed by Schiffer. I doubt such big change is possible, listening to the B.Szel rhetoric. Also, many can probably be blackmailed by the paymaster.
I wonder why Hadhazi joined LMP,, instead of PM, DK or other.

Doy
Guest

There is no backtracking.
Jobbik is anti-Semitic. Period. M. Gyongyosi will always hate Jews. You cannot give up your moral gronds for the sake of political expediency, Eva. It would takes us to Auschwitz.

Observer
Guest

The extreme right NOW is the Orbán gang, they actually putsched a democracy to create a fascist “light” state.
And this régime will harden as it will try to contain the rising frustration with the failing economy cum grand robbery.

Orbán’s Fidesz is already dragging the country down to the dark conditions attributed to the Jobbik.
So, the first and foremost priority is to get the rock off the chest, even with devil’s help.

As for hate, racism and malice try Bayer, Lovas, Bencsik and the Fidesz second tier media, not very far from kuruc.

Rivarol
Guest

Correct and decent words.

webber
Guest

Correction: Jobbik followers did not boycott the referendum. That is Fidesz “slander.” I wish this slander were true, but it is a lie.
Jobbik urgently and repeatedly asked its supporters and others to vote “no.” What Vona did before the referendum was to say, in Parliament, that the referendum was dangerous because there might not be enough votes for it to pass, and thereby Hungary’s position in Brussels would be weakened and if it does not pass, Orbán should resign. ButJobbik actually supported the government’s position.
After the referendum, Vona told Orban that he had made Hungary “weaker,” and that he should resign.

In case you doubt what I’ve written above:
http://444.hu/2016/09/06/vona-gabor-tamogatna-egy-eu-kilepesrol-szolo-nepszavazast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8SFX18bDFk

http://24.hu/belfold/2016/08/13/vona-gabor-a-nemmel-valo-szavazasra-buzdit-es-hazaarulozik/

webber
Guest

And it is important to stress that Jobbik people voted in the referendum, because (as you correctly noted Eva) they HATE Fidesz. The percentage of those who voted “no” in the referendum has absolutely nothing to do with the percentage of those who would vote for Fidesz in an upcoming election. A significant number of “no” voters are Jobbik supporters.
Saying Jobbik supporters stayed away is just a repetition of Fidesznik propaganda, which tries to represent “no” voters as Fidesz-supporters, and suggest that Fidesz is unbeatable.

Guest

Sorry – I did not bother to read today’s post. Fidesz will win in 2018 no matter what the opposition parties do (or rather don’t).

Observer
Guest

Don’t bother with HS either.

webber
Guest

If you don’t bother to read the post, why bother to comment?

Ferenc
Guest

Are you still in Hungary? And keeping your blog with impressions about Hungary alive?
Why not posted anything since January this year? Nothing toshow to “the world” about the referendum campaign? Or does it mean you you agree with it (‘he who is silent is taken to agree’)?
And now here you comment…………………….

Guest

@Webber: I read 99% of Eva’s posts but when it comes to the incompetence of the opposition parties and how they cannot agree on even the most simple things, I don’t see the point. The biggest problem Hungary has is NOT Fidesz, it’s the lack of competent opposition politicians who could leave aside their pride and show that they can team up to fight against Orbán’s government. Until that day comes (if ever), I do not expect anything from them.

@Ferenc: I am Belgian, my wife is Hungarian and we don’t live in Hungary, we only visit my family in law twice a year: for Christmas and in the summer.

webber
Guest

Wrong. The biggest problem Hungary has is Fidesz.

Observer
Guest

The biggest problem with Hungary are the Hungarians, primarily those supporting Orbán, the Jobbik and then the rest, for what they do or don’t.
It’s the same kind of problem everywhere, n’est pas?

Rivarol
Guest

Oui. C’est ca.

tappanch
Guest

No election is valid with the Fidesz super majority in the Election Commission and Election Bureau.

These arms of Fidesz showed their disrespect of impartiality (skinheads, Patyi, etc) aboundingly this year

A.
The MINIMUM requirement for any election is clean bodies supervising it.

The opposition should demand it NOW and boycott any farcical “election”, if Fidesz does not yield to this.

B.
Second demand: revision of the mass mailing method of the Transylvanian and Serbian votes – there is an obvious fraud here, the ballots include dead people as well.

C.
The revision of the Fidesz-drawn election district boundaries by independent judges,

if such people still exist in Orban’s and Hando’s Hungary. Ms Hando is proud to be Orban’s friend of old has now the Orban-given right to promote or demote judges single-handedly.

tappanch
Guest

B.
According to the final, 2016-10-07, 9:07 AM data, which was last modified on 2016-10-10 (seriously, it is on the bottom of the page),

33.47% of the valid “mail-in” votes were identified by an e-mail (non physical) address only.

45.87% from Romania
14.06% from Serbia

2.01% from an “erroneous” address (but the vote was still declared valid)
0.91% from Germany
0.90% from Ukraine+Slovakia+Austria (where dual citizenship is illegal)

2.78% from all other countries combined.

There is no breakdown shown of the provenance of the 15.43% invalid votes.

The method of delivery of these votes:

Dropped off at a Hungarian consulate abroad: 55.78%
Dropped off inside Hungary: 2.52%
Mailed-in or dropped off at the Election Bureau: 41.70%

http://valasztas.hu//hu/ref2016/1135/1135_0.html

Observer
Guest

SURREAL
or senile

Former PM, now fidesznik Peter Boross (then chairman of MDF, a party later destroyed by Fidesz) expressed his frustration that “the celebration of 1956, the miracle of the 20th century, has been denigrated..” by (!!) the US.
How come?
By the publishing of the last copy of Nepszabadsag there and by the comments of a US official.
No folks, this is not a joke, unfortunately.

http://www.atv.hu/belfold/20161023-boross-botrany-hogy-vannak-akik-megcsufoljak-az-56-os-unnepet/hirkereso

Guest

Mr. Boross..appears to be sensitive when criticism comes. Looks as if he just shouted ‘Allez’ to have the US and VO’s land to go at it in a new match. This very timely time it’s over ’56. How can he lose an opportunity to show how Fidesz parries and then directs an attack in for good measure? Really he doesn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to arguing ‘media freedom’.

Observer
Guest

wrfree
“doesn’t have a leg to stand on..”
Most fideszniks roll on their balls with great routine, doesn’t bother them that the Earth is not flat.

Ferenc
Guest
All opposition (left, middle and far-right) working together against Fidesz/OV, can’t imagine that to be working. May be there can be in a few cases some same voting in parliament, but that’s all. One thing what can be done is keeping all in real opposition, i.e. not let Jobbik be eaten up and or severly damaged by Fidesz like they have done in the past with other close parties. The most important items to focus on for opposition is: 1.Show to the people that you have a real alternative, which will operate after Fidesz/OV have been beaten, and you are able to lead the country back to a real democracy. The worst what could happen is beat F/OV, then governing in such a way that the people get unsatisfied with it, and a watered down version of what’s going on now, “Fidesz/OV light”, will return. 2.Convince people, who have unconfirmed doubts about, but are so still giving support to Fidesz/OV, that their doubts are valid and real. So keep digging and searching in all Fidesz/OV related items, in order get serious evidence on the table about even the smallest item confirming F/OV anti-democratic, corruptic, etc. doing. Remember Watergate/Nixon/Washington Post!!! In… Read more »
webber
Guest

How do you think any party on the left could possibly prevent Fidesz from devouring Jobbik? They can’t. Only Jobbik can stop that. If Fidesz is able to co-opt Jobbik’s leadership, or to convince Jobbik to join Fidesz in a coalition (as happened to Christian dems. and the Smalholders), that is because of Jobbik, that is because people in Jobbik want it to happen. The left couldn’t do a damned thing to stop it if it wanted to.

I think if Jobbik is devoured by Fidesz, Jobbik supporters might vote for ANY opposition party. That is how much, in my experience, Jobbik’s supporters hate Fidesz.

Ferenc
Guest

Not to prevent Fidesz/OV from trying, but helping Jobbik not to be eaten-up by F/OV.
Jobbik supporters might/do hate Fidesz, but I suspect they do so even more everything on the other side of Fidesz.
How I see it, F/OV has the bigger chance to win anything on their right side than on their left. And that should be prevented (also).

webber
Guest

Nobody can help Jobbik but Jobbik.
If you think I am wrong, say how. I don’t see how, or why, the left should lose any sleep whatsoever over Jobbik’s fate.

Ferenc
Guest

The left and middle should sleep good, but as short as humanly necessary, to work on the two points mentioned in my main comment above.

webber
Guest

What, concretely, can anybody do? (except for Jobbik)
Tell me that, please.
If Jobbik wants to fall into Orban’s arms, who can stop Jobbik other than Jobbik’s leaders?
If Jobbik doesn’t want to, Jobbik won’t.

Just tell me one concrete thing anyone else can do? I challenge you. Nobody but Jobbik can do a damned thing about it.

Guest

London Calling!

It’s interesting that Gy appears to be changing his mind – and coming around to what I posited some time ago!

Gy even refused to consider a joint enterprise with Jobbik – when I asked him to consider it – when he agreed to answer questions on here, Eva.

Sometimes you have to supp with the devil – but always with a long spoon.

However, realisation is one thing – actually putting it into practice is another.

Way to go.

But with idiots like LMP – even if small, and who are just a smudge on the political face of politics – it shows the naivete and underdeveloped nature of democracy in Hungary – and what realistically you can achieve.

Long way to go.

tappanch
Guest

It will be announced tomorrow that Mediaworks has been obtained by Orban’s Strohman’s Strohman. The Fidesz media monopoly will be almost total.

Orban & fideszniks used EU (& Hungarian) taxpayer’s money to “buy” the assets of the entire country.

http://444.hu/2016/10/23/a-meszaros-lorinc-kozeli-opimus-press-hetfon-megveheti-a-nepszabadsagot-bezaro-mediaworks-t

Istvan
Guest

Eva’s call for a tactical alliance between the remnants of the liberal left and Jobbik is likely a recipe for the destruction of what remains of that opposition. Eva is clear the central issue is the removal of Orban so there is a certain logic to the position.

But even Lajos Simicska might have trouble with that perspective because Jobbik is if anything a full scale Putin supported operation probably given permission by the SVR to appear somewhat more moderate. None other than Eva herself presented evidence of Jobbik being funded by Putin http://hungarianspectrum.org/2016/01/20/is-the-hungarian-far-right-jobbik-party-financed-by-russia/

Marine Le Pen as leader of the FN excluded Jobbik from her EU parliamentary faction Europe of Nations and Freedom on the grounds that it is too extremist.

Calls like Eva’s for alliance with the Jobbik only serve to increase cynicism and make Magyar Kétfarkú Kutya Párt appear to be a rational alternative. Possibly more frightening would be the rise of tendencies that existed in Milla (One Million Voices for a Free Press) founded by Peter Juhász that were anarchist in nature. To replace Orban with yet another strongman would be I think crazy.

webber
Guest

I kind of agree.
Though I think the “anarchists” would be exponentially less dangerous than Jobbik. They are not Putin supporters, to put it mildly. And what happens to an anarchist when s/he gets to power? Either s/he dissolves the party and resigns, or s/he realizes that the state has important, irreplaceable functions (that goes for Anarchists of the Ayn Rand persuasion, as well)

Joe Simon
Guest

Webber – The sixtieth anniversary of 1956 prompted me to post that event.
1956 doesnot even get a mention here. Some Hungarian Spectrum.

webber
Guest

Apparently you didn’t read the first paragraph of Eva’s post.

blinkyowl
Guest

Hi Eva, I highly respect that you are willing to think out of the box. You recommend „temporary” cooperation/coalition with the Jobbik. Hm… Cannot you see the danger that this would only help Jobbik? Having Orban dropped, they would get rid of all the others in coalition and stay in power solo. They would not bother with the legal façade but use sheer force. Vona is an utterly disgusting character but he is far from being stupid and politically naive. Lest we forget from history that nazism is even worse than corrupt fascism. You/we do not want missing relatives, stadiums full of captives, armed militias patrolling the streets, right? Instead of flirting with Jobbik, I would kindly recommend two strategies for the real opposition: doing the political fieldwork (i.e. constantly talking/listening to the people, representing issues that affect the everyday life of many millions, gaining some respect for politics and politicians) and seeking out for international help, both political and financial.

webber
Guest

Two thumbs up!

Guest

“You/we do not want missing relatives, stadiums full of captives, armed militias patrolling the streets, right?”

You/we do not want to have a show of several armed vehichles, a multitude of TEKs and a film crew filming the violent arrest of a single unresisting suspect, but that is what you/we have,

Guest
@blinkyowl Today 9:10 am Blinkyowl, you hit the nail on the head. This is the sanest and most common sense comment I have seen in HS for a long time. One might well ask when was the last time anyone saw left-wing opposition operatives systematically and energetically working – according to some agreed coherent strategy – on creating political support networks in the villages and in the large and small country-towns (and for the moment among the ethnic Hungarians over the borders as well), that together form the principal support base of Orbán and Fidesz. If Soros had any sense, it is this sort of concerted effort at restoring Hungarian democracy that he would fund with every resource at his disposal. As to the desperate proposal of attempting to create some grand alliance between Jobbik and a hypothetical united left-wing opposition for the purpose of getting rid of Orbán, this would not only be a craven betrayal of all left-wing principle, but extremely dangerous to boot. Jobbik might have toned down its rhetoric of late, but the thoroughly rotten Nazi and Arrowcross ideological substance is still there, as much as it has ever been. Apart from anything else, Jobbik would… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

Orban guardists and police do not let people suspected to be in the opposition into the Kossuth square, lest they disrupt the speech of the “dear leader”.

http://index.hu/belfold/2016/10/23/2016_oktober_23_okt23_1956_otvenhat_forradalom_megemlekezes_allami_unnepseg_rendezvenyek/

tappanch
Guest

comment image

Guest

Re: the ‘streets’ and the idea of some specific ‘cooperation’ to get power

Cautionary notes of perhaps thinking you’re getting what you want… 7:45 gives the feeling of the fakeout…
http://youtu.be/BXrmQBPg2s0

webber
Guest

OT – If this isn’t a slap in the face of every Hungarian who cares about 1956, I don’t know what is –
Following his nomination by the Minister of the Interior (Fidesz) the former III/III officer, that is the former communist secret police officer, László Tasnádi, was today promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General of the Police by Hungary’s President Áder (Fidesz), on the occasion of the commemoration of the 1956 Revolution. Tasnádi is currently serving as State Secretary for the Fidesz government. With this rank, his pension will be astronomical, by Hungarian standards.

The official announcement is here, for those who doubt this could have happened:
http://oktober23.kormany.hu/belugyminiszterium-2016

Lustration NOW!

webber
Guest

And at Fidesz’s official commemoration of 1956, former PM Boross gave a little speech about the crimes of American imperialism…
Nothing about what the Soviets did in 1956. Nothing about autocracy in Russia today. Nothing about Russian military attacks against neigboring nations (Georgia, and Ukraine). But American Imperialism.
That’s Fidesz. The KGB Agent Putin’s best friend in Europe.

Guest

Let’s see. We’re six decades on from the critical and dirty realities exhibited in ’56. It would appear now ‘imagination’ is now the awry and main contributor in developing new realities in a plunging Magyarorszag. Next up will be the US as the ‘evil empire’ in the history textbooks if it isn’t already. And Rossiya as the only harbinger of peace, love and understanding in a cruel world. And the violins and balalaikas play the sweet Rossiyan tune. Continue democracy? What? And throw away everything learned from the ‘goodfellas’ like Lenin, Stalin, Nikki, Kosygin, Brezhnev, Andropov, Putin, Kadar, Szalasi and Rakosi et al?

Arthur Klein
Guest

Yes!

Observer
Guest

Wow! Here they go again, fascists and communists like twin brothers who hate each other.
How lucky Hungary to have them both.

Bowen
Guest

I’m just leaving Kossuth Ter. Orban obviously heard the whistling. He looked very distressed. As did his faithful followers who left as quickly as they could, once Orban finished talking. Kossuth Ter half empty by the way. Only a limited number of people allowed near the central stage. Police blocking off the rest of the square. The Soviets would have been proud of Viktor

webber
Guest

Whistling and horns can clearly be heard – O. starts at about 12:07
http://www.atv.hu/belfold/20161023-kossuth-ter-orban-56-ra-emekezik-juhasz-futyulo-tuntetest-szervez

Observer
Guest

Admittance to the central part was through private security checking bags, asking for whistles.

There were hundreds, repeat hundreds of police vehicled, incl unmarked ones.

Dozens of buses on two sides shipping supporters from the countryside.

Reality Check
Guest
tappanch
Guest

the content of your link is not accessible to a mortal like me.

Protesting historian Krisztian Ungvary was beaten:

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http://444.hu/2016/10/23/megutottek-a-sippal-a-szajaban-tunteto-ungvary-krisztiant

Guest

I do not know if what we see was inadvertant or deliberate. But the next time Mr. Ungvary practices his rights in a ‘democratic’ country I’d think it would help him if he is always sharp on his surroundings. We call it here as ‘heads up!’ It is not good to see his ver seeping from his eye. Under the circumstances he’s lucky more didn’t come out of his face. The alert word now apparently is ‘Vigyaz!’

Guest

Here in the village it was a day like any other Sunday, people working in their gardens – just those multiple interruptions of electricity from noon to three o’clock felt strange.

Bowen
Guest

Ungvary Krisztian (the historian) ends up with his face bloodied, for whistling at Orban.

http://444.hu/2016/10/23/megutottek-a-sippal-a-szajaban-tunteto-ungvary-krisztiant

tappanch
Guest

Orban had a bad day. I think propaganda minister Rogan will be forced to resign, and the fraudulent “bond for green card” scheme will be cancelled.

This way Orban will get the 7th amendment of his own “basic law” from Jobbik and Juhasz’s target, the scandalous Rogan will disappear.

PALIKA
Guest

The amendment is meaningless so if Jobbik gets Rogan’s scalp it sounds like a good deal.

Member

Everybody should do what their own conscience dictates- I personally would never countenance working with a party which is essentially neo-nazi. On the other hand, as Hungary is now governed by a racist fascist dictatorship, I will never criticise those who consider using whatever method possible to rid the nation from the evil that is Orbán. Best option is that he shuffles his mortal coil and seeing the present shape of his “physique” a timely and fatal heart attack is not out of the question.

pappp
Guest

Looking from the pics Fidesz was unable to bus enough people from the countryside to fill even a portion of the Kossuth tér. There are some obvious problems with the machinery.

That said the leftist parties did not look as a vigorous, united opposition force to be reckoned with.

Bowen
Guest

What are you talking about? Were you in Budapest today? Or are you just looking at some ‘pics’ online and gifting us with your final, well-deliberated verdict on events?

Why should “leftist” parties, as you call them, try to be a “force” against official 1956 celebrations? That’s what Fidesz would do. Derail, sabotage, and toxify. With violence, if possible. See 2006. Did you appreciate events that year?

Any attempt to sabotage Orban’s propaganda campaign at Kossuth Ter today should have come from civilians, and that’s pretty much what happened. Do you realise that most people were blocked from moving around Kossuth Ter freely today, don’t you? That no-one, except authorised people, were allowed anywhere near the stage? Or that police and security thugs were making it very difficult for people to even get to or from the metro? Or that people like Juhasz Peter were forbidden from even getting close to central Kossuth Ter? And yet, despite all this, they still drowned out Orban’s speech, and managed to make him look very troubled in front of a few thousand of his own (very bewildered-looking) supporters?

pappp
Guest

Bowen What are you talking about? I only made two observations.

1. Orban is weakening, he couldn’t attract too many people to hear his bullshit.

2. The leftist parties – which desperately need to work together if they want to win 2018 – were not able to use the October 23 occasion for a big demonstration either. If you remember the last 6 years, October 23 was very often an opportunity for the opposition to come up with something big or important. People don’t work, they are more open to attend a rally because many people are in town so it’s much easier to organize on that day something than on say 25th of May. Yet, a year and a half before the next elections the leftist parties were unable to demonstrate their strength with something big, something hard-hitting.

I think I am right with both observations. Perhaps there was too much expectations from the left-wing , they may still have time. But it sure would’ve helped if these parties could smoothly perform something that could grab the attention of the average voter.

Bowen
Guest

October 23. I doubt very much that the average Hungarian has an appetite for the use of this date for party political rallies.

This date (up to 2014) was used by Fidesz for their latest Bekemenet. The most notable use of October 23 I can think of was in 2012 with “Milla” (not actually a political party) which saw the re-introduction of Bajnai into political life. That was a very popular turnout – but not a party political one.

Again, I’d repeat that the average Hungarian has no appetite for party political posturing on October 23. I don’t know why you think the “leftist” parties should stoop to the level of Fidesz on this.

Member

Better the devil you know…

I am extremely skeptical about making a Faustian bargain with Jobbik (unless someone knows a fail-safe way to ensure that it is temporary and does not benefit Jobbik: probably impossible).

It’s easy and convenient for Vona to play clean and righteous when he does not yet have his hands on the till, as Orban has.

Decency and bigotry are incompatible.

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