Russian military intelligence and the Hungarian National Front

I’d wager to say that not too many people are familiar with a far-right paramilitary organization called Magyar Nemzeti Arcvonal (Hungarian National Front or MNA), although it is perhaps the most important group of its kind today. It espouses the tenets of Hungarism, the brainchild of Ferenc Szálasi, leader of the Arrowcross party which, in the late 1930s, had, for a short while, one million followers. The current leader of MNA, István Györkös, who just killed a Hungarian policeman, is the anointed successor of Szálasi.

Szálasi was captured in Germany by the Americans and was sent back to Hungary, where he was executed in 1946. While still in Germany, he passed his mantle to Árpád Henney, a military officer who was a member of his cabinet. Henney served as head of the Hungarist movement abroad until his death in 1980, when he appointed Imre Tatár, a former member of the Koronatanács (Crown Council). Tatár was singularly unsuccessful in holding together the warring Hungarists. He went to Hungary in 1989, hoping to revive the movement on Hungarian soil. It was here that he found István Györkös.

Despite the fact that a whole institute was created to study extremist organizations in Hungary, we still know relatively little about the 76-year-old Györkös. It seems that he was arrested and jailed after the 1956 revolution. In jail he became acquainted with the Hungarist movement through former leaders of the Arrowcross party who were serving time. Until about ten years ago he lived in Győr. He then moved to Bőny, a small village about 20 km from the city. This is where he killed one of the two policemen who came looking for illegal weapons. In the shoot-out he was injured.

Györkös had to be well known to the Hungarian authorities. He was arrested several times in the last 25 years. At one point he even received a suspended jail sentence. The Hungarian police force and the national security establishment had to know that every year Györkös and his group hold a military camp for youngsters in a secluded area, apparently owned by Györkös himself. It is enough to look at a list of their activities between January 2012 and June 2014 compiled by the now defunct Athena Institute. They also had to know that the man might be dangerous. To send two lightly armed policemen against somebody who, as it turned out, was waiting for them with a machine gun shows recklessness on the part of the Hungarian national security forces.

István Györkös in his usual attire

István Györkös in his usual attire

Several small extremist groups are active in Hungary, but MNA is unique in that it has extensive ties with Russian military intelligence. I dealt with this extremist group only once, in September 2014. It was in connection with a lesser-known right-wing portal called Hídfő (Bridgehead), which broke the story that Hungary was secretly supplying tanks to the Ukrainian army. Soon enough the Russian foreign ministry published an official statement stating that “weapons supplied to Ukraine by the EU-member countries … violate legally binding obligations—the Arms Trade Treaty.” The Russian foreign ministry was well-informed on the details: “Hungary’s Defense Ministry is supplying Ukraine with armored vehicles, including T-72 tanks, through a ‘proxy agency.’” It turned out that Hídfő was the official website of Magyar Nemzeti Arcvonal. For some time it has served as a vehicle of Russian disinformation, a growing concern in Europe and elsewhere. In fact, by now, at least according to national security officials, Hídfő is entirely under Russian direction, either directly or indirectly. The best summary of the history of MNA and its activities can be found in an investigative piece written by András Dezső and Veronika Munk of Index.

The news site also published an article by András Dezső and Szabolcs Panyi which claims that officials of the Russian military intelligence, Glavnoe Razvedivatelnoe Upravlenie or GRU, established contact with MNA and other right-wing groups in the last few years. Apparently Russian diplomats often come in contact with these extremists at shows of military relics. According to information received by Index, the youngsters recruited by Györkös often play airsoft, which is similar to paintball. The weapons they use look and feel real, so real that they are used for military training. Apparently Russian diplomats have been attending some of these games. As for Hídfő, by now it carries practically no news on MNA but only serves Russian political interests.

Index also reported back in February 2015 that the reason for a split between the Hungarist groups was Györkös’s overly friendly relations with Gyula Thürmer’s Munkáspárt (Labor party; actually the tiny Hungarian Communist party), something that Thürmer didn’t want to talk about. But at least one photo exists showing that already in 2012 the Communist party and Györkös were on a common platform. I may add here that Gyula Thürmer’s son, who calls himself Gyula T. Máthé, is one of the important columnists at Magyar Hírlap. Here is his latest. What grows together belongs together, as the Hungarian saying goes.

And let’s return to the village of Bőny. HVG’s reporter visited the village and asked inhabitants their opinion of Györkös and what was going on in their village. They didn’t know the head of MNA well because he wasn’t the outgoing type, they said, but he looked “normal and respectful.” The military camps he organized for youngsters didn’t bother them. Since it was forbidden to drink in the camp, there were no signs of drunken marching militarists. According to one woman, “they were 20-25 years old and behaved very well. They looked like young commandos.”

A reporter from the pro-government Magyar Idők also paid a visit to Bőny. He gained an entirely different impression of the mood of the inhabitants, who are “relieved” because they have been “living in dread.” His informants agreed that Györkös was unsociable, so “everybody thought he was strange and many were afraid of him.” Everybody knew that he had guns. Apparently one could occasionally hear gunshots coming from his place. Magyar Ik’s reporter learned from a woman living in the village that several times a year Györkös organized military camps, which on occasion several hundred extremists attended. Their presence raised fear in the locals. But if that was the case, how is it possible that no one went to the police to report that Györkös had illegal weapons and that the youngsters carried flags with forbidden symbols?

Origo, which in the last few months has become just another mouthpiece of the government, published an article about MNA with the title: “Magyar Nemzeti Arcvonal: Several ties to Jobbik.” The title is misleading. There is no question that Jobbik had connections to some of the extremist groups, but MNA was not among them. I guess Fidesz wants to drown out all the information that is coming from independent sources about the connection between Putin’s Russia and István Györkös’s MNA.

October 27, 2016
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Guest
London Calling! “how is it possible that no one went to the police to report that Györkös had illegal weapons and that the youngsters carried flags with forbidden symbols?” Presumably ‘youngsters’ means male youth. I can’t imagine patriarchal Hungarian society having young women in the group – let alone an equal opportunities policy. Male chauvinist pigs to a soldier – smoking their guts out with handrolls (everyone who smokes in Hungary, and roll ups mostly, because they buy it cheaply (Russian) over the border and sell it to friends who fund their own use. Every other student, it seems is at it. (****Sweeping generalisations alert here ***) These groups, like Magjar Guarda (see I can spell it correctly when I want to), openly march in their ‘blacks’ and paunches (comically!) around Hungary and their uniform is often seen as a fashion statement with the obligatory map of (not so) Greater Hungary. The Rendorseg – under tacit authority of Orban – in competition with Jobbik – stand idly by as they tolerate the ‘manoeuvres’ – fat men playing soldiers who are breathless after ‘marching’ a few yards. I even think that many in Bőny were quite happy with the ‘battalion’ –… Read more »
Guest

Oh yes, I forgot. Obviously this has ramifications for Brexit – there’s a ‘b’ in Bőny. The evil Tories are just as evil as Orban, because although guns are illegal in the UK – the Tories want them really.

And with Murdoch owning all the press – just like Orban – they like a good gun story and particularly a murdered cop. It’s that hateful Cameron’s fault of course with May following close behind (just like Bőny – May ends in a ‘y’ – such a close connection).

It’s so bad in the UK that my hero Orban can be seen to be much better – much much better in comparison – and Bogyay too of course. (I’m not sure why I live here really – I’m such a masochist.).

I only hope my other hero, which dear Orban, Szijjártó, and Kovács endorses – Trump – wins the election. Orban’s Russian mates are doing their best to help.

(**********If you call me ‘silly’ – that’s obscene abuse – and I’ll sue. (And call for witness protection.) *******************)

Guest

If you disagree with me, webber – I’ll just have to patronise you to death – calm down and remain polite and sensible and remember this is a blog which operates within the law.

webber
Guest

Sure about the gender? Look at the person on the far left of this picture. Gender relations seem to have changed even on the extreme right:

comment image

BTW “Magyar Gárda” is the correct spelling – though I guess you might have been joking? If you weren’t joking: Hungarian doesn’t use the u in the manner that Italian does. Otherwise I have no comment, but thanks for thinking of me.

Guest

It’s only the first part I had a problem with! I have dyslexia with the ‘gjy’ in the correct order. I’ve always though the Guarda bit was right.

So Magyar Gárda it is. Thanks!

Thanks too for the ‘woman’ photo – bet there can’t be many of them!

I’ve never seen the ‘turul’ lion before!

(The uniform looks a bit ‘Wehrmacht’!)

webber
Guest
webber
Guest

Or, if that doesn’t work –
comment image?1395438138

Women are in a minority, but they are welcome to be members of Magyar Gárda.
Gender equality has reached Hungary’s extreme right, in a way.

Guest

!!!! A beer paunch OR a bump!

webber
Guest

The baby has since been born. I hope his or her mother is well, and hope she is gainfully employed in some other way.

pappp
Guest

I know this is Závecz Research but it’s interesting.

30% (!) of the people have not heard about Antal Rogan’s chopper ride.

This is very important because this means that about 1/3s of the voters are exclusively fed government propaganda (which has been totally silent about the issue) and are not exposed to any independent media where this story and its aftermath have been featuring for weeks now.

People who think that media isn’t important and Orban is stupid to have amassed an unrivalled media empire are living in a dreamworld.

The opposition simply cannot reach 1/3 of the people (needless to say the 70% are also divided but at least they can somehow be reached). Meanwhile the government can feed them any bullshit and they will believe it because they simply have no other source.

http://index.hu/belfold/2016/10/28/nem_utotte_ki_a_biztositekot_rogan_helikopterezese/

webber
Guest

and you still believe that data, and that people are not lying, starting with Zavecz?…
No comment.

Guest

My wife says she’s sure that a large part of the people here in the village really haven’t heard/read this story – the pensioners around us have only the North Korean State Media available …

So 30% might even be a low estimate – unless more people heard it from others who have access to independent media.

PS:

Have the muckrakers like Bors and Blick reported on this?

webber
Guest

Blick seems to love this sort of thing. I never buy it, but acquaintances do, and sometimes there is really sensational (and true) news in the paper. It’s an odd thing to say, I know.

pappp
Guest
I picked this part of the poll because the goal of the poll was to show how people are not outraged by Rogan’s actions. I don’t care about that part. Zavecz could and probably did massage the figures but I think there was relatively small incentive for him or for the polled people to say that they didn’t hear about Rogan’s latest antics. Just as Wolfi I also think that this is a realistic estimate. Mind you about 25% of the kids according to PISA are functionally illiterate, they cannot easily read. I think it’s entirely plausible that those who only watch TV and listen to radio (outside Budapest apart from RTL Klub every TV or radio is controlled by Fideszniks) have not been exposed to the story or maybe they saw something on RTL once but switching channels all the time they then forgot about it. It’s a reminder that Fidesz easily can control about a third of the people and we need to bear that in mind. Based on anecdotal stores many regular buyers of the printed Népszabadsaág (mostly elderly people) in Budapest simply did not hear about the shutting down of the paper. Day after day they… Read more »
webber
Guest

You cannot pick a Zavecz poll to show anything EXCEPT what Fidesz wants people to think the majority of people think.
And you know it.

Guest

“People who think that media isn’t important and Orban is stupid to have amassed an unrivalled media empire are living in a dreamworld.”

Nobody thinks that way. Too many think that he would have been stupid not to do it.

Member

The following is not related to Hungary, but to the modus operandi of the Soviet/Russian spy agencies. This comes from today’s online edition of an opposition newspaper.

KGB’s Middle East Files

Chapter 1 The KGB in Israel, published on October 28, 2016
1.1. Vasili Mitrokhin
1.2 “Illegals”
1.3 Agents in positions of power
1.4 Recruiting foreign diplomats
1.5 Agents in the immigration wave

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-13181,00.html

Member

“Illegals” were people who were sent to Israel with fake identities.

Member

Source:
“opposition” = Israeli opposition = “left-wing” (which has a non-traditional meaning in Israel = probably close to the current US administration )

webber
Guest
Györkös put pictures of his little army holding weapons online several years ago. Because it may not be obvious to some Americans, I’ll make this very explicit. Organizing a private army/militia is illegal in Hungary. Having weapons such as those held by Györkös’s soldiers is also illegal in Hungary. And there is no question that Györkös and his people had no permits whatsoever to have those weapons. That is one of the charges against him. Yet, Györkös felt confident enough to publish pictures of his little army online after 2010, and the Hungarian authorities did nothing. There are two possibilities: 1. Györkös was being protected by someone in government. In which case, “who?” should be the question put to Fidesz. 2. Hungarian secret services are so useless that they cannot even spot an illegal private army when it is advertising itself on the internet. In which case, “who will be fired for being so incompetent?”, should be the question, and “how will the services be reformed to be sure that other similar armies are elimitated?” (because there are others – they, too, adverise themselves online. Either Fidesz admits incompetence in state security, or Fidesz admits that some of its members… Read more »
webber
Guest

In case you doubt that there are other such private armies in Hungary, or want to argue that they are difficult for state security to find and identify – here is a picture
I found online in under 5 seconds:
comment image

Guest

Quite some nascent beer guts there, coming along nicely! Bit disappointed with the lack of moustaches!

No fags either – maybe a no-smoking forest combat zone?

(Well no fags of the smoking kind.)

Member

My final answer: #1.
The Orban administration has three types of people:

A. who simply want to steal as much as possible
B. people with ideology close to the 18th century Hungarian feudalism
C. people with ideology close to the Mussolini, Hitler & Szalasi movements.

Remark: types B & C also want to obtain as much money & real estate as possible from the public assets.

Guest

You know I really wasn’t familiar with the MNA. I’d think it isn’t too far-fetched to see how these extreme ‘outliers’ exist today sort of
‘beyond the pale’. I don’t know but the seeming toleration of those dressed up fellows presents a rumination that they simply exist for ‘just in case’ they are needed. MNA arguably can be called the JIC Corps. ‘At the ready, just in case’.

Observer
Guest

To complement the list, Orban’s supporters are also three groups:
A. Those who simply want to steal as much as possible (easy to understand)
B. Fools and/or ignoramuses who don’t know or don’t understand what going on.
C. Those wankers and crazies, who want to live out their inferiority complexes with the slogans of national, great, strong, historical, etc. BS, a wish that overrides any cerebral argument to the contrary.

Guest

Re: ‘live out inferiority complexes’

Certainly and probably a continuation as they enter into so-called ‘second childhoods’. The latter for some just reprise the ‘bulliness’ in the existing personality. And as we know all that inherently masks grave weaknesses in dealing with realities.

PALIKA
Guest

It is a textbook example of police incompetence to send officers to confront an armed criminal without ensuring the criminal is rendered harmless by the time the officers get within range. Most police forces would have that training

webber
Guest

Sure. But the question remains: Why only now? Why did it take so many years to act? And why aren’t they doing a damned thing about other similar armed organizations?

Observer
Guest
Webber There is one reality, not “possibility”: Orban IS the extreme right in all but name, as proven by the hundreds of acts leading to his current fascist regime. As such he used of extremists and simple thugs on many occasions, Vona’s Jobbik was hatched and grew under Orban’s wing, Orban abetted or tolerated all sorts of extremists e.g. Budaházi or this MNA. Hoping they will be doing his dirty work or black ops. All until now, that is. My bet is that the loss of the referendum (together with a range of unfavorable developments in many areas) triggered some panic wave and , as usual with such regimes, Orban rushed to tighten the screws everywhere: from Nepszabadsag, half a dozen new broadcasting frequencies to Vajna, further acquisition of local papers, etc. to the move on the MNA (and all suspected weapon holders) and the incarceration of Budaházi, who was under house arrest until now. In contradiction to J.Lázár’s announcement on Thursday, today Orban stated that the government will not yield to Vona and the sale of “settlement bonds” will continue – typical pigheaded reaction. I totally exclude the possibility of the police and secret services not knowing MNA well.… Read more »
webber
Guest

Györkös’s reason for having those weapons and that private army is also interesting. He said he and his comrades meant to hunt down and execute “migrants.” I wonder if they haven’t already done so? There have been reports of individual refugees going missing in Hungary.
I know for certain that private people are encouraged to “help” hunt down refugees, and that the Hungarian authorities look the other way when they do.

PALIKA
Guest

Chaos and lawlessness

webber
Guest

Rather, a lynch mob with state support. Hungary’s version of Ku Klux Klan is embedded in the police and interior intelligence.

PALIKA
Guest

But why expose their Police offices to needless danger and death?

Guest

Oh? Did they attack their offices as well?

Guest

Brexit offices?

webber
Guest

I rather suspect that the local police took action without knowing what they were getting into.
That was local incompetence, clearly. But what I am talking about is a national problem, at the highest levels.
Why has TEK not done a damned thing about these groups? Why haven’t other state security organizations acted.
I don’t blame local policemen for not being up to the task.

Guest

Haven’t these groups been embedded in towns and villages for decades? Long before TEK were ‘invented’.

I think they’ve even marched near, if not on, Hero’s Square.

They will always be tolerated while Orban is in power – they know they can march with impunity – the police have clearly been told to let them march.

It is an important constituency of Jobbik – and Orban. If Orban condones it then he will steal from Vona.

This has quite a contrast to our Siege of Cable Street when Moseley’s Brown Shirts were blocked by the population of the East End of London. They blocked their march and chanted “They shall not pass” – a phrase that has entered the legend lexicon like your ‘Nem nem soha’.

Moseley’s Brown Shirts soon got the message – it was a provocative march to intimidate Jews – not dissimilar from your Gárda intimidating the Roma.

Unfortunately it takes the tacit approval of the population – to allow them to march in Hungary. Not just Half-hearted legislation that no one really believes in.

Like the Roma legislation that Orban is so proud of abroad – it has a different reality in Hungary itself.

Guest

Then there’s the Nationalistic iconography. Orban is never far from a bunch(!) of flags.

You just have to march when you see them! (Well I don’t actually.)

The right love them – and Magyar Gárda certainly do.

Many here in the UK hate getting close to the National St George’s flag because it means ‘football-hooligan’. It’s been hijacked by the football fraternity – a source of right-wing paramilitary groups.

(What do those ‘turul lions’ mean?)

I don’t know what the collective noun is for flags? Flutter? Bellow? Fart!?

0jr
Guest

all in response to the ugly dirty fithy traitorious commie jew butchers who should all burn in heaps of manure

Guest

Hilarious! We normally prefer the more thoughtful insults – but sometimes someone comes along that just makes you laugh with the poverty of their vocabulary!

Observer
Guest

Charlie

Yeah, this burning in heaps of manure is very original.
Dante doesn’t have it. Anywhere in the Bible ?

Guest

Calm yourself, Blinker. How terribly educated and very Hungarian. Congratulations. Not a very robust response. You usually bluster more loudly. Read both posts and digest. You should not allow patriotic zeal to carry you away.

Try and keep a sense of proportion. This is only a blog. Tease and be teased (weird that). Calm down and remain polite and sensible and remember this is a blog which operates within the law – best not to shower anybody with racial abuse (even weirder). And don’t abuse anyone obscenly(!).

Observer
Guest

Gy’s explanation may have some truh in it, killing unsuspecting civilians would have been easy. However the migrant craze is a new thing while these neo fascist organizations have been around for 25 years.

Member

Media news.

The relationship between Pecina, Speder & Fidesz.

The several year old manipulation to close down or devour Nepszabadsag, the largest (opposition) newspaper of the country.

http://tldr.444.hu/2016/10/28/mar-evekkel-ezelott-behalozta-a-nepszabadsagot-a-fidesz

Yesterdays news:

Speder sold Portfolio.hu & Penzcentrum.hu.
There is no news about index.hu

http://24.hu/media/2016/10/27/speder-eladja-a-portfolio-hu-t-mukodteto-ceget/

0jr
Guest

state owned commie rag run by jews

Member

The Hungarian authorities are not willing to cooperate with the Americans about Ghaith Pharaon, Orban’s (son-in-law’s) business partner & neighbor.

http://mno.hu/belfold/ujjlenyomat-vizsgalat-kellene-pharaon-ugyben-1368735

0jr
Guest

do they cooperate with crimea about bidens son you bitches

Member

A Hungarian Nazi would not care about the Crimea, so you must be a Russian Nazi of the чёрные сотни type .

0jr
Guest

A TRUE HUNGARIAN PATRIOT

Observer
Guest

Hungarian cretin, and malignant at that.

petofi
Guest

@ Ojr

“true patriot..”–And you’re not ashamed of what’s going on now??

Some patriot…

Tyrker
Guest

The Observer also published an interesting article on the subject.
http://observer.com/2016/10/putins-support-for-europes-far-right-just-turned-lethal/

Guest

And on that if things go too far a country I’d say will reap the whirlwind.

Istvan
Guest
I assume that the readers of this blog are aware that paramilitary training and activities exist in Budapest too. See https://kingofshooting.com/budapest/shooting-packages Because of Hungary’s highly restrictive gun regulation most of this training is done with rental guns. What is exotic in Hungary is relatively normal here in the USA. Chicago is surrounded by a variety of gun ranges and clubs that go well beyond skeet shooting. I go to a range every four months to maintain my accuracy and hold a state of Illinois gun license that allows me to carry a concealed handgun if I so chose. I also go hunting in northern Wisconsin at least twice a year. The pretend soliders are in some cases either pretty pathetic or frightening. The scary ones are former US special forces members who are also often survivalists (see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism ). I know of only a few retired officers that I would chacterize as “preppers ” or survivalists, most are former NCOs or lower. They believe they preparing for society’s collapse and their theories as to how this will happen range all over the place. Some younger working class Central European men who have emigrated to the USA are fascinated by gun… Read more »
Guest

Smart. I can’t think how you would feel if some ‘normal’ fellow you speak with makes prime night time tv headlines as they show him firing away with assault rifles from his bunker position at anything coming along somewhere up in the wilds of Utah or pick any state. I’m a little familiar with gun culture here. Sometimes it is depressing.

Istvan
Guest

A very common question I would never respond to is about converting a semi-automatic rifle to full or burst auto by changing what is called the receiver. Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, it is illegal for an unlicensed person to make a firearm for sale or distribution in the USA. It is illegal for most civilians to own fully automatic weapons in the USA under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

I can’t think of any good reason for a civilian to own an automatic weapon either here in the USA or in Hungary. I would be very interested to learn how Gyorkos got those weapons.

Guest

Yes, who knows what nefarious gun-running goes on there. I can imagine the serpentine conduits trailing back to who knows what. Probably more difficult to trace than here in my estimation. What would you say?

Giuseppe
Guest

Are private armies legal in hungary ?
It seems so illogical for any governament to tolerate it.

Guest

The logic is that private armies can be utilized by the government to do things that the official army will squirm at.

Member

The Orban government submitted 19 bills to the Rubber Stamp House this afternoon. One of them roughly doubles the threshold even for formal tenders. So it will be easier to give public money to friends & family without competition.

http://hvg.hu/gazdasag/20161028_kozpenz_nyulas_kozbeszerzesi_ertekhatar

pappp
Guest

Just a tidbit.

The English language Facebook page of the Hungarian Government illustrated the murder of a policemen by the extreme right winger Istvan Györkös with a picture depicting migrants – hours after it was announced officially by the police that the perpetrator was Györkös.

http://444.hu/2016/10/27/migransok-fotojaval-illusztralta-a-kormany-angol-nyelvu-facebook-oldala-hogy-egy-hungarista-szelsoseges-fejbe-lott-egy-rendort

Member

Small news, just to illustrate the dark HungOrban Zeitgeist.

Orban-made oligarch Garancsi destroyed a protected old house in downtown Budapest today.

http://index.hu/urbanista/2016/10/28/leromboltak_egy_muemleket_a_belvaros_vilagoroksegi_teruleten/

Member

In the last 4+ years, I quoted

nol.hu 204 times, while
168ora.hu articles 34 times.

Both archives have disappeared, been rendered unavailable by their new owners !!!

Orwell & Fahrenheit 451 are at work in Hungary !!!

PALIKA
Guest

The easy familiarity between Hungary and Russia is hardly surprising apart from OV’s recent attempts to foster closer links. The histories are interlinked and and did not always work to Hungary’s detriment, in 1849 the victory of the Russian Impersial Army heralded a period of peace and relative prosperity until Hungarians lost the plot. The post 1956 period was a time of unparalleled success and prosperity compared with the troubled times since. Why should we worry about OV and Putin being friends? Putin would certainly keep the fat fellow on his toes. Do not underestimate Russia. It is not like the US or France. Most Hungarians probably do not know how many Hungarian words have found their way into the Russian vocabulary. E.g. Puszta, kasza, kaposzta, kolbasz,

PALIKA
Guest

Also szalona.

PALIKA
Guest

And udvar

PALIKA
Guest

Kukorica

webber
Guest
Palika, that is wrong. What are you on about now – pushing ridiculous Russian propaganda today??? Why? The origins of all those words can be checked by a child. None are from Russian. Go to Tótfalusi István’s (ed.) Hungarian etymological dictionary. You will find that most Hungarian words of Slavic origin are from ancient Slavonic. Russian is related to that language, of course, but the Slavs Hungarians got those words from are quite likely the predecessors of the Slovaks, the Serbs, Slovenes and Croats. That is, from the indigenous Slavic population living in the Carpathian Basin when the Hungarian tribes arrived. There was such deep and long contact between Hungarians and Slavic speaking people here that it was simply natural that these words. It has NOTHING to do with Russian. Look up Kukorica, – unknown origin. Most likely from a South Slavic language (A magyar szó átadója valamelyik déli szláv nyelv lehetett.) Udvar – of Slavic origin, from the Slovak, Slovene Serbian and Croat “dvor” (Szláv eredetű szó: szerb-horvát, szlovén, szlovák dvor) szalonna – a Slavic word. Slovak, Slovene, Serbian and Croatian “slanina” meaning “salted” (as in salted meat). (Szláv eredetű szó: szerb-horvát, szlovén, szlovák slanina (‘szalonna’), ezek a szol… Read more »
webber
Guest

p.s. Kukorica is, of course, of more recent origin. I personally prefer the Romanian origin theory for that word (Romanian kukuruz). The grain surely first arrived on ships coming up the Danube – via Romanian lands – and the first people to cultivate that grain in this region were surely those living near ports. Could have been S. Slavs, of course, and also could have been Romanians.
The Hungarian dialect word for corn/maize reflects the grain’s arrival to Hungarian-speaking lands: tengeri – roughly “sea grain”.

PALIKA
Guest

Weber, an opinion that is different to yours is not necessarily “propaganda”. My disguise is my affair.
The information provided by Tappanach is quite fascinating. I apologise for the spelling. No I do not remember what I heard about the origin of words at school. Even if I did, it is almost certain to be inaccurate. Tappanach is absolutely up to date,
At the famous school I was not taught but if I was I have forgotten the history of the emergence of Russia from the Grand Duchy of Moscow.
Have a nice weekend

webber
Guest

The origins of words are not opinions.
Your disguise is your affair? I take that for a beismerő vallomás.

Guest

If you know German I can recommend a book to you:

Wörterbuch der ungarischene Umgangssprache (Dictionary of Hungarian slang) by Thomas C Dahn

It has most swear words and words that youths use and describes their origins: Slav, German, Gypsy, Jiddish …

It’s often funny when my wife uses one of these and I look it up …

PS and totally OT:

I remember buying a book like that as a student many years ago in a cheap paperback edition: “American slang”

And at home I found that the author had deleted all sexual references – which of course spoilt the whole thing and made it valueless!

But this book on Hungarian slang contains all the sexual references – and swear words you might need!

webber
Guest

I can recommend the following dictionaries: Mark Adamsbaum and Réka Lengyel, Dirty Hungarian (Berkeley, CA, 2012).
It’s part of a series, which includes
Daniel Chaffey, Dirty German (Berkeley, CA, 2009)
The Östereichisch-Deutsch Wörterbuch (Salzburg, 1999) is also nice, though it has almost no swearing.

Guest

Webber, thanks!
Amazon.de has these at less than 10€ each – so it seems I found a Xmas present for myself! 🙂

Guest

You won’t believe who reviewed the “Dirty Hungarian book” – and gave it only one star.
I find the title very provocative, offensive, degrading and outright humiliating. I’m surprised that Amazon even allows it to be published. Skillful Hungarian bashing with a difference!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/review/R2TON4SBEWX6BS?ref_=glimp_1rv_cl
What a funny coincidence – this made my day! 🙂

webber
Guest

Hilarious!
There is a whole series of these books – Dirty Italian, Dirty German, Dirty French, etc. -, and that idiot calls Dirty Hungarian “Hungarian bashing”!

Guest

Who is Melanie Ruben, please?

Guest

Webber, how can you call latefor an idiot?

She’s a “Tiszta Magyar”!
And Magyars can’t be compared with others … 🙂

Guest

Yes – I couldn’t get back here quick enough! Beaten to it!

Guest

And not one spelling mistake in the review! No wonder I didn’t twig earlier!

Guest

She’s banned on here now I think – She plugged her book again after Eva warned her.

Guest

Depends .. .
An English lady would write “skilful” not the American Skillful

PALIKA
Guest

Incidentally could someone explain why the Saudi oligarchy with their oppression of women more commendable than the Russian oligarchy?

webber
Guest

A typical Fidesznik question, that. Who says they are “more commendable”? Nobody.

PALIKA
Guest

Of course not. There is none

Member

NONE of these word are Russian.

Russia emerged from Grand Duchy of Moscow after the Mongol invasion. Its first known ruler died in 1301. The Hungarians had arrived in Hungary 400 years before.

The conquering Hungarians found Slavic people living in the Carpathian basin.
Lots of Slavic words came to the Hungarian from Slovak, Serbo-Croatian, Slovene, some came from Polish.

káposzta < Slovene or Slovak
kasza < Slovak
kolbász < Serb or Slovak
kukorica < Serb
puszta < unidentified neighboring Slavic
szalonna < Croatian or Slovene
udvar < unidentified neighboring Slavic, related to English "door" = Old Hindi "dvaram"

Member

pénz < Slovak peniaz < German Pfennig < Latin pondus

PALIKA
Guest

Thank you for this brilliant explanation. There must be many more words I have missed.

Member

According to one count, about 1/6 of the basic Hungarian vocabulary is Slavic.

PALIKA
Guest

What is the rest?

Member

Almost three years ago, I was heavily criticized for this count below, based on 3459 basic word roots. [what is basic? what is root?]

1. Extinct & completely unknown languages 25.7% [no, not Sumerian :-)]

2. Finno-Ugric 17.8%
3. Slavic 16.4%
4. German 9.5%
5. Turkic 8.1%
6. Latin & Greek 5.2%
7. All other known languages combined 2.9%

Internal development 14.4%

Member

Slavic, but not Russian
Turkic, but mostly not Turkish

PALIKA
Guest

Thank you. Most interesting

Ferenc
Guest

Quit OT, but very interesting and thank you anyway.
Does anybody here know an explanation for the writing and pronounciation of “sz” and “s” in Hungarian being opposite like in Polish/Czech?

PALIKA
Guest

The high proportion of extinct and unknown languages seems to give support to the migratory history. The tribes may have been eliminated by the Magyar migrants?

webber
Guest

Possibly.
Possibly some are Avar words, for example.
But possibly words from predecessors of languages still spoken today – words that became obsolete long before these languages were first recorded. Languages just drop words for all sorts of reasons – changes in lifestyle, or just fashion. We know that because it has happened in recent times.
Here’s a webpage with a list of a few words that have died out in English, for instance:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/27-delightful-obsolete-words-its-high-time-we-revived?utm_term=.qsr7B97lLZ#.nbOyvrypZd

PALIKA
Guest

Thanks, they should come back into use

petofi
Guest

Don’t let that stop you from sucking up available space on this blog with your nonsense…

PALIKA
Guest

You can probably just suck off and if you want, suck yourself.

webber
Guest

Palika! Are you really the Palika who constantly complains about Charlie being obscene and rude? Really?

PALIKA
Guest

Neither rude nor obscene, just a play with words. You are still fascinated by my disguise.

webber
Guest

Your use of the verb suck, above, was obscene. Petőfi’s was not.

webber
Guest

It was also extraordinarily rude.
Next time you want to complain about Charlie, please recall that – if, that is, you are the same Palika. I strongly suspect you are not. He never used language like that before.

PALIKA
Guest

Clearly you have what we used to call a “dirty mind”. Just a play on innocent words. Ask anyone

webber
Guest

Well, you’re a liar. Good to know.

PALIKA
Guest

Hungarian call everybody a liar when they do not like what is said. A lie is a false statement of fact. An opinion cannot be a lie because by its nature an opinion is not a statement of fact.
As Charlie may confirm the more usual and socially accepted expression is “you are wrong” or better still “you are mistaken”.
Just to show how rude it is, in Parliament in London it is forbidden to call another member a liar. So you can rephrase your post in the light of this.

webber
Guest

We are not in Parliament.
You are a liar.
(You knew perfectly well what “suck” meant in your sentence).

Guest

It seems to be a feature of the “Tiszta Magyar” that they have to swear as obscenely as possible – so maybe Palika is just trying to outdo the other “Hungarians here” or at least keep up with them.

Anyway we know that he’s not for real – just for your amusement …

webber
Guest

Wolfi, hard to say.
I forgot to say that Palika is not just a liar, but a hypocrite.

PALIKA
Guest

Must not confuse “Tiszta Magyar” with “Mely Magyar”.
For ” your amusement”? Hardly

Observer
Guest

Tappanch

Russia’s origins go back to the 9th century, see Kievan Rus, Киевская Русь.
The words you list are found in many Slavic languages as they have a huge common vocabulary.

Member

Eastern Europe after the Mongol (Tatar) invasion, 1250-1300:

comment image

Observer
Guest

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kievan-Rus

BTW how can I embed pictures here?

Observer
Guest

And BTW I speak/read will Russian.

Observer
Guest

These are Slavic words in the Hungarian language, although pusztoj in Russian and others means empty, sheer smth and do not refer to prairie or empty plains,

PALIKA
Guest

It is actually the word “pusztoj” that prompted my original post on this, as you say it means empty etc. But the similarity of meaning suggested to me that the Hungarian “puszta” had a connection with the Slav word. “Puszta” in Hungarian means something akin to emptiness.
The large number of shared words in the region is something I find encouraging because it suggests that the origins of Hungarian apartheid may not be older than the misguided nationalist ideology that culminated in the 1848/49 conflicts.
Am I wrong?

webber
Guest

There were very serious ethnic problems during the uprisings led by Prince Ferenc Rákóczi II, mainly between Serbs (and some Croats, interestingly), and Rákóczi’s troops, which included what we today would call “ethnic cleansing” of Serbs from some regions of Hungary (N. Balaton, for instance). Some really horrific massacres are recorded in the published correspondence from some of Rákóczi’s officers.

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