Viktor Orbán discovered the culprits of bolshevism in western europe

At last we have a Viktor Orbán speech that contains something new, not merely his usual mantra of the declining West which, let’s face it, is becoming pretty tedious. Although the speech was still about the West, Viktor Orbán–this time as a self-styled expert on political philosophy from a historical perspective–decided to enlighten his audience about one of the West’s gravest sins. With admirable virtuosity he managed to make the West responsible for the Soviet system as it developed after 1917 in Russia. For good measure, he added that Western Europeans should be ashamed for not placing equal blame on communism and national socialism.

The speech was delivered on February 25, which Orbán’s government declared in 2000 to be the “Day of Victims of Communism” as “befitted a Christian-national government.”

So, let’s see how he moved from the Soviet Union and its satellites to the guilty West. “It is no longer customary to say that those ideas that led to tyranny were born in Western minds. Communism, just like national socialism, came into being as a Western intellectual product. It didn’t see the light of day in Moscow, Cambodia, or Havana. It came from the west of us, in Europe, from where it proliferated over half the world.” The West was also responsible for this “through and through Western idea becoming the bitter lot of Central Europe.”

The numbers on the lectern designate the three parcels in which the remains of the heroes of 1956 are buried / MTI/ Photo: Zoltán Máthé

The transgressions of the West don’t end here. “Even today there are many people in the West who try to excuse the sins of communism, and the European Union itself is reluctant to condemn it.” After the war, sentences were meted out to war criminals in a military court, but after the fall of communism “the representatives of the free world didn’t impose such a severe verdict” on the perpetrators of crimes in the former communist countries. So, it’s no wonder that “Western Europe has a bad conscience.”

Orbán’s critics are up in arms. What an incredible leap from Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels to Lenin and Stalin. Accusing Western European politicians and intellectuals of being responsible for Stalinism or Maoism just because in the second half of the nineteenth century a German social scientist and philosopher developed a social model which years after his death was transformed in Russia into something that had nothing to do with Marx’s theories is preposterous. Marx’s original hypothesis that the lot of the proletariat would worsen turned out to be wrong and therefore, as the years went by, Marx’s ideas were transformed. Modern social democracy developed. Soviet Bolshevism had more in common with Russia’s Tsarist past than with Karl Marx. Viktor Orbán should know that only too well. His generation had to study Marxism-Leninism and, as far as we know, he was an enthusiastic member of KISZ, the Communist Youth Organization, while his father was party secretary at his workplace.

Other speakers representing the Christian-nationalist government elaborated on Orbán’s theme, further distorting the past, burying it under their ideological garbage. Zoltán Balog went so far as to claim that “European unity and real dialogue [between East and West] will be possible only if Western Europe is willing and able to look upon the sins of both communism and Nazism as the shame of Europe.” This contention–that underlying the profound differences of opinion between some of the Central and East European countries and the western members of the European Union is the refusal of Western Europe to own up to the sins of communism–is staggering.

Other Fidesz politicians turned instant historians came up with bizarre versions of Hungarian history in their desire to make anti-communism a trademark of Hungarian existence during the Kádár regime. János Potápi, undersecretary in charge the government’s “national policy,” said that with the arrival of communism Hungary “had to say goodbye to a world based on law and order.” As if the Horthy era had been a model political system that was worth preserving. We also learn from him that “the political system founded on tyranny failed because there were secret little islands, fortresses of souls and ideas that paralyzed” the dictatorship. This is the fruit of Mr. Potápi’s imagination. With the exception of a handful of “dissidents” in the 1980s who were the future founders of SZDSZ there were no fortresses or islands of resistance in Hungary to speak of. And those few who resisted the regime and were ready to face the serious consequences of their actions are today considered to be “enemies of the people” by Viktor Orbán.

László Kövér, president of the Hungarian parliament, is inclined to see communist ghosts everywhere, although he himself came from a family that was closely associated with leftist politics. His grandfather, as a young man, served in Béla Kun’s Red Army, and his father was known to be a faithful member of the party. Yet he considers the communist system to be the greatest curse of history, which ruined the lives of generations. It seems that Kövér discovered God and now as a religious man is worried about the “godlessness and inhumanity that are manifest in communism, which may under a different name and in a different shape return at any time.” Such a tragedy must be thwarted by reminding people of the evils of communism.

Gábor Tamás Nagy, the mayor of Budapest’s District I, claimed that in essence there was no difference between the Rákosi and the Kádár regimes, adding the total nonsense that “the communists didn’t learn anything from 1956 and didn’t forget anything. That was the reason for their downfall.” At first I thought that perhaps the mayor is a relatively young man who knows nothing about the Kádár regime. But no, he was born in 1960 and thus spent 30 years in Kádár’s Hungary, which he equates with the terrors of Mátyás Rákosi. They didn’t learn anything from 1956? Just the opposite. The memory of the revolution was foremost on their minds, and they adjusted their policies accordingly. It was precisely the lessons of 1956 that eventually led to Kádár’s goulash communism.

All this falsification of history only postpones a real reckoning with the past, be it 1944, 1956, or 1989-90.

February 27, 2017
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
FreeWheeling
Guest

Meanwhile in Hungary during this OV’s second and third gov’ts have increased the control of the state over the economy and mass communication outlets. Furthermore you have a secret policing bodies (ex. TEK) that have remits with very little to no checks on their activities.

OT: On a personal level I am getting suspcious. When my partner checks their email with Hungarian-registered ISP, it is strange how my and my friends’ foreign-registered email takes a much much longer to be delivered to their inbox.

exTor
Guest

Electronic surveillance is not detectable. Usually.

I too have had emails that have taken longer than normal to reach me. I’m talking about delays lasting hours, not just minutes. I just chocked it up to ‘one of those things’.

I doubt that your ISP is monitoring your emails in the first place. Secondly, you would never know about it if your ISP were monitoring you.

Go online and research email monitoring. Lots of info out there.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

One should also remind O and his minions that they still haven’t opened the secret police files from Communist times!
No lustration – while most or all of the other former Communist states have tried to come clean – Hungary doesn’t want to do this – does Fidesz have too many “corpses in the cellar” as we say in German?

Germany had a special office where everybody could ask for copies of the info that the Stasi had collected about her/him.
I wrote about this already:

A friend of mine who with his wife and children was allowed to leave the DDR (West Germany paid a hefty sum for this …) after a long fight with the authorities found that his neighbours and friends had reported on him – several hundred pages …
And I’m sure it was similar (or worse even?) in Hungary – many Hungarians love to spy and report on their neighbours – my wife told me so and I see/hear it when we talk to people in the village …

“Let the neighbour’s cow croak!”

Observer
Guest

I read in some articles on WWII that Hungary
– had the largest number (per population) of denunciations to Gestapo,
– allowed claims for specific items, like an apartment or carpet, of the confiscated Jewish property, occasionally before confiscation, including in good neighborhoods of Budapest.
So much for morals here.

e-1956
Guest

There is another aspect to the East-West relationship.
The roots of European fascism reach back to the Tsarist and Bolshevik Russia.
See Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter.
Many Baltic Germans, and White Russian Emigres have contributed to the Nazi ideology.

Observer
Guest

e-1956
The roots of European fascism are not to be found in Russia, but in late 19th ct France, Italy and Germany (see – from wiki to The Origins of Totalitarianism, H.Arendt). Fascism started as a socialist (Mussolini – Socialist, German National socialists NSDAP) movement and was pretty close to the communist one and their bases overlapped.
Just as we can see now in Hungary – Jobbik base, or more ministers were more former communists in the Orban 2nd government then in the previous MSZP one.

Guest

Rather OT but totally worth reading – what the OECD says about Hungary:
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/hungary/
In most indicators of quality of life Hungary is worse than the OECD average – and the summary (in the eyes of Hungarians themselves):
In general, Hungarians are less satisfied with their lives than the OECD average. When asked to rate their general satisfaction with life on a scale from 0 to 10, Hungarians gave it a 5.3 grade, one of the lowest scores in the OECD, where average life satisfaction is 6.5.
Just an example:
In terms of health, life expectancy at birth in Hungary is 76 years, four years lower than the OECD average of 80 years, and one of the lowest in the OECD.
And it’s getting worse it seems …

Ferenc
Guest

As another reason, than lower life level compared to OECD average, for less satisfaction (or higher dissatisfaction) in Hungary I see the ‘too proud for their own good’ mentality in Hungary.
The backside of this is that, in general, Hungarians envy others more, and feel for themselves more need to show to others what they have. I realized this in the early 2000 during the mobile-phone boom. In Hungary most people having a mobile had to show they had ONE to others, e.g.hanging like a decoration on their breast, etc.
So when I visited my family in West-Europe first I thought that there were less people who had mobiles than in Hungary. I mean I hardly saw one, but soon realized that this was not the case only people were not unnecessarily showing around they had one, as that would only hinder in their daily works.

Guest

Re the “envy of others”:

My wife also says this is very common among Hungarians (comparable with the idea of “keeping up with the Joneses” that was typical for the USA after WW2. And you can combine this with a kind of atrocious language where a neighbour whom someone doesn’t like is either called “buzi” (i e gay), Zsido or Cigany …

You hear this so often …

I still remember when I introduced my wife to my favourite bar in Germany – at first she didn’t want to accompany me, said: People in a kocsma are not those which I want to talk to!

But when I explained to her who the people at my favourite table were (male and female), she was really surprised and happy – and she could talk with them about politics, the economy, travelling, you name it.

wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘
In terms of health, life expectancy at birth in Hungary is 76 years, four years lower than the OECD average of 80 years, and one of the lowest in the OECD.
And it’s getting worse it seems …’

No doubt on the rate of alcoholism too. It’s probably the next best thing to opioids to relieve the pain of life lived in the country today. Have to say it is incredible with what gets put up with. The bar has been dangerously lowered.

Ferenc
Guest

On the by themselves declared “Day of Victims of Communism” OV&Fidesz are able to mostly complain about Western-Europe as not acknowledging their part of the responsibility for the ‘terrors of communism’? How on earth are they capable of such distorted thinking?
And meanwhile OV&Co are trying to be friendly and co-operating more and more with the leadership of the state, where a communist system was first implemented and later pushed around (in a western direction) through (Central-)Eastern-Europe. Am not aware if any current Russian leader has acknowledged such responsibilities, which OV&Co are complaining about that West-European leaders don’t want to do.
Based on this following conclusion can be made about OV&Co:
-they are not able to think coherent
-their statements are least of all honest, but mostly serve a (hidden) purpose
-they simply can not be trusted
Furthermore it’s more or less their standard that same sort of statements come in waves from different persons. This can not be coincidence and therefore must have been spoken through before. This can only happen, when they have agreed to serve the (hidden) purpose or when that (hidden) purpose is forced upon them by a leadership.

bimbi
Guest
Viktor Orban is a far-sighted statesman who, bestriding Europe, looks west and sees culpability, nefarious scheming, philosophical neglect and glaring responsibility. He alone is able to see that to which others are blind. It must be clear to all that He has been chosen by the Immaculate Virgin Mary herself to guide this little happy Magyar land forward to the Fidesz heaven that must be its destiny. Sadly, while taking aim at the sins of the West, he omits, deliberately, to recognize and expound on events nearer home, even within his own XIIth district of Budapest. On 12th January 1945, the Hungarian, Vatican-trained Franciscan priest András Kun, in his cassock and armed with his beloved pistol, led a band of Hungarian irregular Arrow-Cross thugs on a raid of a hospital in the Maros street where Hungarian patients were being treated. Accounts of the slaughter of patients, doctors, nurses and staff, numbering over 100, can be found at: https://blog.ehri-project.eu/2017/02/08/murdered-on-the-verge-of-survivalmassacres-in-the-last-days-of-the-siege-of-budapest-1945/ and at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A1s_Kun Somehow in the great sweep of Mr. Orban’s vision that spans a continent, he is unable to recognize the Hungarian fascists, the Hungarian killers of Hungarians, nor the terrible fate of the Hungarian victims themselves. Mr. Viktor Orban, Prime… Read more »
Melanie Zuben
Guest

Bimbi
“Viktor Orban is a far-sighted statesman who, bestriding Europe, looks west and sees culpability, nefarious scheming, philosophical neglect and glaring responsibility. He alone is able to see that to which others are blind. It must be clear to all that He has been chosen by the Immaculate Virgin Mary herself to guide this little happy Magyar land forward to the Fidesz heaven that must be its destiny”

Orban lived the life of the oppressed, therefore he has a deep understanding of ordinary people, their decency and their Hungarian temperament. He sounds almost Orwellian. (Towards the end of his life, Orwell also turned to the right . . . or most probably he would’ve if he didn’t die).
In this speech, Orban is actually questioning the motives of some western intellectuals of the past and present. Should they be allowed to turn the world upside down without challenging their ideas?

bimbi
Guest

@Melanie Zuben, 6:45 a.m.

In answer to your question, I offer the (Scottish) saying, translated:
“It is easier to see the stye in the eye of your neighbour than in your own.”

Guest

You got it almost right – but it should have been:
Orban lived the life of the oppressor – his father was a big thing in the Communist party!

Observer
Guest

Kudos!

bimbi
Guest

@Bimbi, 4:56 a.m.

Aye, I should hae kent it! Luke 6:
41. “And why beholdest thou the more that is in the brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”
42. “Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam that is in thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.”

Ferenc
Guest

OT
Today is a meeting of EU ministers responsible for environment in Brussels. Just read news that the current EU president Malta together with ‘certain East-European countries’ push for less CO2 reduction (I suppose less than according the Paris agreements).
Anybody here knows what is the official opinion of the Hungarian government in this?

Ferenc
Guest
Observer
Guest

This would have been a great parody, if it wasn’t for the performers and the audience that turn it tragic. In comparison with the Matolcsy ravings this farce is much more ominous, like a Ministry of Truth (Orwell, 1984) product. However, a farce it remains, as the intellectual level reference of Felcsút looms large.
Surely, even this stunning BS will be taken in by the faithful (see Life of Brian), but just as surely many on that side will feel the pang of doubt that, after all the emperor is stark naked.
I don’t think these pitiful “intellectual” tricks deserve more analyses, but just to remind the half-baked faithful that since the Saint István king EVERYTHING intellectual came from the West, Christianity and all. Although the thieving and cheating nature of the “half Asian derivatives” still shows in too many.

Joe Simon
Guest

Churchill and Roosevelt contributed greatly to the global expansion of communism. The American president called Russia a basic democracy. Churchill called Stalin a friend on whose side he felt safe.
Still, Vikor Orbán should leave history to historians.

Guest

Hitler and Stalin also were friends – until 1941.

And your idol Horthy was friendly with whom?

wrfree
Guest
Re: ‘Still, Vikor Orbán should leave history to historians’ Of course but he can’t help himself as he would appear to now be weighing heavily over the shoulders of those historians who now are peering into the archives to investigate and interpret Magyar and communist history since the late 18th and early 20th centuries. He wants to make sure they get everything ‘right’. I feel bad for the historians. It’s tough to do work when bad breath keeps on seeping through surrounding cubicles and archives. The smell must be overwhelming. And I’d suggest his super-sensitive buddy in Rossiya would also have him keep his mouth wrapped tight though on the West ‘contributing’ to ‘communism’. Russians as we know are extremely sensitive to the ‘not invented here’ syndrome. They are usually afflicted with it and deep down despise almost any link that hints of a ‘Western tinge’. Really if the West invented oxygen, the Soviets would have had 5/10 year plans where subjects would keep on sucking CO2 in controlled experiments. And of course their scientists would plunge doggedly ahead knowing they would be making new men for a new system breathing new and rarified air. I’d suggest we have one… Read more »
Observer
Guest

Fidesznik Joe,

When did Churchill call personally Stalin a “friend”?
Ch’s feelings about the communist Soviets and Stalin are well known (to you ?), so this is utter ignorance or an dumb/outrageous attempt at “alternative facts” of history.
But then, you are a fidesznik, … full of lies, myths, twists and general BS, as Matolcsy and Orban demonstrated again last week.

bimbi
Guest

I hate to say it, but initially Churchill did claim to regard Stalin as a friend with whom he could work, after all Churchill desperately needed Russian cooperation against the Nazis. Roosevelt was annoyed about this at the time – Roy Jenkins “Churchill”. Later, WSC turned into a strong anti-commonist and the ‘friendliness’ had evaporated.

Joe Simon
Guest

@Observer

Just read Churchill`s speeches.

Observer
Guest

wolfi777
Hitler and Stalin friends !?!, PLEASE …. Each considered the other an arch enemy and they knew it.

fidesznik joe

Your statements that “Churchill and Roosevelt contributed greatly to the global expansion of communism” is a flat lie or great ignorance.
Even if we founded an instance that “Churchill called Stalin a friend” (after all they had at least one documented drunken night) in the historical setting wouldn’t make much of a difference. In fact Stalin had many positive statements re Hitler and Nazi Germany, while they both prepared for a grand and devastating war.

All, remember that “Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” and that a some flattering or placating expressions don’t make friends (see from The Prince, Macchiavelli to any book on politics)

Which WSCspeeches you have in mind? I know one where he referred to the Allies “all in good friendship”.

Guest

Of course my remark re Stalin and Hitler was a joke – the “Nichtangriffspakt” that Molotov and Ribbentrop signed however was real.

A bit OT:
You are right that nations have no friends. Whenever I read up on European history (mainly wars …) in the 19th and 20th Century I’m amazed about the different coalitions. States that were involved in a war (or multiple wars, every generation sees a new war like between Austria and Prussia) suddenly become allies and vice versa.
Let’s just hope that we don’t return to those glorious times when every new genaeration had a “chance” to fight a new war against some of the neighbours. I’ll never forget the stories my parents told me about WW2 – and my grandma about WW1 …

Observer
Guest

wolfi777
If you want a real grand puzzle try the 30 Years War, the first western world war.
Have fun working it out.

Guest

@Observer:
We had to work on this in our history lessons at the Gymnasium – no, thanks!
And as a background we also had to read the play “Wallenstein” (he was the most famous general in that war).
I just shudder to remember those days in school with former Nazis as teachers and a Catholic Clerical Fascist as director …

Observer
Guest

Wow!
After such school environment you can blame them for any and all of your faults and misfortunes (a la Honrois).

Ferenc
Guest

OT
Monday 2017.Feb.27 was a hearing in the EU parliament about Human Rights in Hungary, here you can watch it (and choose the language you prefer): http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20170223IPR63709/committee-on-civil-liberties-justice-and-home-affairs

Ferenc
Guest

Nothing new is said there, but it’s nice to have all problems listed by the NGOs themselves. Only one “strange bird” in the nest: Mr.Szanto of the Center for Fundamental Rights (aka.Alapjogokért Központ). Hearing him being only positive about all things OV&Co gives a very strong suspicion of a very FAKE NGO!!!

Observer
Guest

Your suspicion is right, it’s a regime’s stooge.

Observer
Guest

I should add that there are many others. Most of them were legit NGOs, societies, etc., but the Orban regime abolished the norm based (normativa) support and started to distribute the fund on political basis, e.g. we shall fund you for certain research projects, but we need certain results. For some NGOs this was a matter of life or death.
So much for democracy and rule of law.

Ferenc
Guest

Here’s today’s discussion at HirTV between representatives of AI and that ‘mouthpiece’ Center about the EU hearing:
http://hirtv.hu/magyarorszageloben/adok-kapok-1388082

Observer
Guest

Great. And this disgusting bunch pretends to be defending basic right. As in Stalin times, where sometimes a defense lawyer would appeal for harsher sentence.

Member

Orbán is ridiculous and stupid and not even ashamed of it.
Any normal sane human can only feel contempt for him.

Even Putin, who does kind of same politics, wouldn’t talk that nonstop nonsense, that Orbán permanently utters in his monologues.

Other dictators and autocrats would let do the lying waffle by others and not make themself so ridiculous.

That’s why he looks always so lost between the other european leaders. Because there are normal people who cannot take him serious and he feels it.

Lumpy Lang
Guest

In the early 1990s elderly Polish dissident Marxist Ludwyk Haas wryly noted all the overnight god-fearing ‘democrats’ who first made careers by supporting Stalinism and then made even more lucrative careers denouncing it.

Guest

You find them everywhere – there was a case in Germany right now when someone had to give up his job – he was just found out last year.

But in Hungary it seems that everybody made this smooth transition …

My wife often remarked on it – she didn’t have a career in the önkórmanyzat before 1989 because she refused to become a party member – and many of her former bosses became bosses again after 1989, no problem …

Mayhem
Guest

Generally, I am against Orban’s vision in pretty much every regard, but here I agree with him.

Communism was developed in the Western society and ultimately it was financed by the West to come to power in Russia. Remember how Lenin had German financial back-up for the bolshevik coup d’etat? We kinda forget these things.

The reason why communists, in general, had more of lenient fate is because the change of regime happened rather peacefully. USSR and the West traded spheres of influences and that was it.

Sure, a lot of Hungarian politicians had ties with the former regime. A lot of those who condemn communism today were staunch supporters of it 27 years ago. But we have to face the truth: communism is a Western invention and it came to power in Russia thanks to Western financial support. How it developed afterwards does not change the fact that it came to be in the minds of Western thinkers, not in the minds of Russian peasants.

Guest

You’re really crazy in a way …
Next step will probably be to remind us about Karl Marx?
Btw everything in Russian civilisation probably came from the West – so what follows from that?

PS:
Lenin’s journey from Switzerland to Russia was organised and financed by Imperial Germany who was friends and allied with Austria/Hungary – so ?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reise_Lenins_im_plombierten_Wagen
However that was after the “first” revolution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution

Mayhem
Guest

Crazy or not, it is the truth. Lenin was financed by the German Empire to launch a coup d’etat in Tsarist Russia. The foundation of practical communism happened because of Western financial support. The first revolution was not a Bolshevik revolution, btw.

Guest

Let us not worry about where Karl Marx’s utopia was thought out as it was never realized. The revived Russian imperialism, on the other hand, is being realized right under our eyes.

Observer
Guest

Mayhem

I appreciate your attempt at history, but your are well off the mark (just as the half baked Orban is):
– Communism, as we know it now, was NOT “developed”, nor even thought out in Western society more then Utopia. There were dozens of theories propagated at the end of the 19th ct, including socialism and fascism in several flavors.
– The bolshevik/communist/Stalin regime in Russia, later in China, etc. EVOLVED naturally and had little resemblance to the theoretical model.
– Of course Germany facilitated the upheaval in war enemy Russia and this plaid off well as Russia dropped out of the war and signed Brest Litovsk.
– Nobody knew much about “communists” in 1918, let alone envisage the realities of the Stalinist regime.

“why communists, in general, had more of lenient fate”
Because they didn’t invade the West as Hitler did, nor even damaged the Western economies. Note that the Great Powers intervened against the bolsheviks and later the West contained communism, on occasion by force e.g. Greece, Korea, Vietnam, but acted generally with restrain.

The West even now refrains from intervening in the internal affairs of other countries, even against the quasi fascist takeover in Hungary.

Mayhem
Guest
1. Theoretical communism was developed in the West and with Western financial aid it managed to become practical in Russia. So you are off the mark. Tsarist Russia may have had a communist movement (which I think all countries had one during those times), but without Lenin and German aid, the Bolshevik revolution would have not happened. 2. How it evolved afterwards is rather trivial. Practical communism became a thing thanks to Western support. If it did not root itself in Russia in 1917, it would have not spread in China, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Vietnam or any other country. 3. Basically you confirm that the Westerners financed and facilitated the rise of Practical communism in Russia and subsequently in the world. What they sought to obtain is of little importance. The consequences of their actions remained for over 80 years. 4. That thing with nobody knew about communists in 1918 is not an excuse. Nobody knew anything about the nazis in 1933 either. 5. The communists had a lenient fate because they made a pact with the Westerners at Malta in 1989 to trade spheres of influences without a military conflict. 6. The great powers may have intervened against communism,… Read more »
Guest

You’re really disturbed!
“the Westerners” one time means the Prussian Empire (in cohorts with Austria/Hungary) – next time their enemies, then …
As I wrote before everything came to Hungary and Russia from the West, so what?

PS:
Aren’t Putin and Orbán valiantly trying to influence “the West” too?
The EU is under constant attack by them – luckily we’he held the fort until now – don’t want any of O’s crazy “illiberal” ideas there!

Mayhem
Guest

They are doing the same thing as the West did. So what would that imply? The fact that Orban and Putin are trying to influence the west does not change with anything that fact that the West facilitated the rise of Practical Communism in Eastern Europe.

The EU should be under constant attack because it deserves to be. When you only offer the cultural marxism model and the prospects of a federation by denying the will of the people, well you ought to be under attack. Russia is simply taking advantage of the people that are not happy with the way the EU is handling its own affairs, affecting their lives completely. For me, EU is no different than USSR and I hope it disintegrates in the future which is the best thing for the survival of all the European nations as we know. If EU would’ve remained only a free market system, instead of a political union, it would’ve been perfect. We have to acknowledge that it is a failed experiment and kicking a dead horse is not the best way to bring him back to life.

Observer
Guest
Mayhem I thought you understand something of history, sorry, I was wrong. Maybe wolfi777 is right, or rather, playing Prof. Huggins: born to mid class Fidesz parents, ideologically imbued, studied in Pázmány? Your assertions of causal effect, interpretations are utter nonsense, comprehension is limited, also: 1. Theoretical communism was developed in the West (+ Plehanov, Kropotkin, Trotzky, Bukharin, Lenin, etc.) and with Western financial aid (what aid?!) it managed to become practical in Russia. ….but without Lenin and German aid, the Bolshevik revolution would have not happened. (the Lenin-made- the-revolution approach is as erroneous as they come) 2. How it evolved afterwards is rather trivial (Wow! Revolutionary new paradigm). Practical communism became a thing thanks to Western support (what support? BS). If it did not root itself in Russia in 1917, it would have not spread in China, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Vietnam or any other country. (unscientific nonsense ) 3. Basically you confirm that the Westerners financed and facilitated the rise of Practical communism in Russia and subsequently in the world (I did nothing of the kind). …. 4. That thing with nobody knew about communists in 1918 is not an excuse. Nobody knew anything about the nazis in 1933… Read more »
Mayhem
Guest
You keep avoiding the fact that Lenin made his revolution with Western money. He was sent to Russia by the German Empire and with German Empire financial aid he managed to build an army and to take control of the country. The communist movement in Russia until then, though active, it was kept in check by the Tsarist administration. Without Western interference, the bolsheviks would have not made it to power. So Orban is right in this regard. Eastern Europe, before the soviet invasion had literally no support for communist parties. France, Italy and Greece for example had much better developed and more powerful communist parties with actual support from the population. My country, Romania, back in 1945 had a communist party with a little bit more than 1000 members, most of them not even Romanian ethnics. China, Cuba or Vietnam barely had a communist movement. Soviet Russia was behind Mao’s revolution, supporting him financially and militarily. Ho Chi Minh developed as a communist leader in the Soviet Union and later in China. Fidel Castro would have not installed his communist regime with USSR aid. Cuba’s communist regime would have not received for so many years with USSR aid. So… Read more »
wpDiscuz