What really happened at the EPP meeting this morning?

Two diametrically opposed views are circulating about Prime Minister Viktor Orbán’s appearance before the top leadership of the EPP. The cynical view is that once again Viktor Orbán succeeded in fooling the naïve EU politicians. The more optimistic view is that this time the EPP read him the riot act and he no longer has any maneuvering room. He will either comply with the demands of the European Commission and the leadership of the European People’s Party or else. HVG and 24.hu stand pretty well alone in concluding that today’s EPP meeting was a serious blow to Viktor Orbán. I’m inclined to side with them.

I have collected from independent sources all the information I could find about the meeting itself and comments made either before or after the meeting by responsible EPP politicians. What do I mean by independent sources? Non-Hungarian sources that gleaned their information on the spot.

First of all, I think it is important to stress that the gathering included the highest dignitaries of the EPP group, headed by Joseph Daul, its president, as well as Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, and Antonio Tajani, president of the European Parliament. EPP’s press release, which included Daul’s statement, began with these words: “Prime Minister of Hungary Viktor Orbán was summoned to the Presidency of the European People’s Party (EPP) this morning to explain the latest developments related to the Hungarian Higher Education Act and the national consultation ‘Let’s stop Brussels.’” Thus Orbán was not invited to discuss matters but was summoned to explain his government’s treatment of a university, its propaganda against the European Union, and its planned attacks on NGOs.

After this beginning it is not at all surprising that the presidency of the EPP thought that “dialogue alone is not enough.” Daul said that there was “an open and frank conversation,” which in diplomatic language means a tough and not exactly friendly exchange. Orbán was asked “to take all necessary steps to comply with the Commission’s request.” In turn, “Prime Minister Orbán has reassured the EPP that Hungary will act accordingly.” The statement warned that academic freedom and the autonomy of the universities must be respected. Moreover, the EPP considers NGOs an integral part of any healthy democracy. “The EPP has also made it clear to our Hungarian partners that the blatant anti-EU rhetoric of the ‘Let’s stop Brussels’ consultation is unacceptable.”

This is the EPP gathering Viktor Orbán had to face this morning

Now let’s see what other evidence we have for what transpired at this meeting between Orbán and the bigwigs of the EPP. The spokesman for President Daul, Siegfried Mureşan, said after the meeting that “Prime Minister Viktor Orbán pledged in the EPP council to follow and carry out all the demands of the European Commission within the time frame set by the commission.” That time frame is 30 days. Today Frans Timmermans reiterated that Orbán must meet the European Commission’s demands. “We’re very firm on this. I will not drop this ball.” Joseph Daul also said today that “the constant attacks on Europe, which Fidesz has launched for years, have reached a level we cannot tolerate.” Manfred Weber added that “after this discussion the ball is in [Orbán’s] court. If he reacts properly, then he is a team player. If not, there will be consequences.” According to euobserver.com, Viktor Orbán himself admitted that “they told me to behave.”

Although many of the reports on the meeting note that the question of Fidesz’s expulsion from the EPP group didn’t come up, in light of the reports and leaks I suspect that some sort of ultimatum or warning must have been issued. Given Weber’s reference to “consequences,” I assume the EPP leaders told Orbán what those consequences would be if he refuses to comply.

In light of the above, the Hungarian pessimists’ verdict that Orbán again managed to fool the naïve EU politicians is, in my opinion, without any foundation. It really doesn’t matter what Orbán said to Hungarian reporters in Brussels. As Hungarian Free Press translated the appropriate passage, “the university of George Soros, which is called Central European University, is proceeding at its own legal pace. On this, no agreement has been reached. At this moment, there is a legal discussion. We always believed that if someone does not like something, then one must choose legal means to resolve the dispute. This is a legal issue. Hungary and the Commission will discuss this in the coming months. The legal dispute will have an end result, and this end result will be implemented.”

Let me start by stating that Orbán didn’t outright lie. Indeed, “no agreement has been reached” thus far. He didn’t say at the EPP meeting that he will withdraw the law. He simply promised to fulfill the demands. He is correct in saying that it is a legal issue. However, his claim that he can discuss the matter for months on end is untrue. He received a 30-day deadline, after which an infringement procedure might be launched. By itself, this infringement procedure might not be a big deal, but we don’t know what additional threats the EPP leaders, Juncker, and Tajani made. Orbán’s claim that “at the EPP meeting we managed to defend Hungary’s point of view” is a brazen lie.

So far we have no idea what the final Hungarian position will be on the issue of Central European University. At the moment there seems to be total chaos in the communication department. For example, the official government statement, signed by Bertalan Havasi, the director of the press department of the prime minister’s office, only a couple of hours after the meeting ended is a nonstarter in my opinion. It still includes the core attack on CEU–that is, that CEU, in order to continue as an institution of higher learning in Hungary, must establish a functioning campus in the United States. Surely, no sane person can imagine that this position can be the starting point for negotiations with either CEU or the European Commission.

I suspect that we are going to read conflicting statements from government spokesmen and, in turn, innumerable guesses about the government’s true intentions. This is a crucial junction in the tug-of-war between Orbán and the European Union. Orbán’s defeat is likely, and therefore the government’s communication experts will need all the tools they can muster to sell this particular debacle as a victory.

April 29, 2017
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Daniel
Guest
Nothing of this came through today from ‘public media’. Even the fact that the meeting took place was introduced in a round-about way, saying that “answering the question whether PM Orban was faced with an ultimatum from its party’s family, Mr Orban said no one can dictate us anything”. So tax payers, who fund this garbage (81 Billion HUF a year), would need to find out there was a meeting between Fidesz and it’s family, the People’s Party (PP) from these kinds of announcement of a question that some journalist asked. Then came the other criminal on screen, Rogan, who said it became clear after today’s meeting that Hungary belongs to the EU and Fidesz belongs to the PP, so this is the end of the story. Again, tax payers need to guess from this, that this was an issue to begin with… We had this kinds of media in the 70’s. And they make sure opposition coverage is very limited. So sad for a country, our homeland. Total manipulation on a level a ten year old would not buy. Same with the “National Insultation” idiotic questionnaire and everything else. How will this end?
Guest

Thanks, Daniel!
“National Insultation” idiotic questionnaire – that’s a good one, you made my day!

From the comments of our doggy below we can feel Fidesz already squirming.

PS:
This reminds me of a song from my youth:
How much is that doggie in the window?
The one with the waggly tail
How much is that doggie in the window?
I do hope that doggie is for sale …

And it’s appropriate – all Fideszniks are for sale …

PPS and rather OT – or not?

Someone like this song`s artist is sorely needed in Hungary!
In 2009, Patti Page recorded a version of the song with a new title (“Do You See That Doggie in the Shelter”) together with new lyrics by Chris Gantry, with the hopes of emphasizing the adoption of homeless animals from animal shelters.[10] The rights to that song were given exclusively to the Humane Society of the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(How_Much_Is)_That_Doggie_in_the_Window%3F

wrfree
Guest

Very good!

And just a country ditty where VO can maybe sing along learning that there’s a limit to what he can do when those EU buffalo roam…😎… ‘Cautionary’ Americana!
https://youtu.be/jYFFAMWhHVo

Member

I watched this morning’s M1 tv news. Almost half of the time was devoted to interviews with Orbán (looking increasingly worn-out and tired) and Rogán, both assuring that they had managed to defend Hungary’s interests (success!!!) and to explain that the “Stop Brussels” campaign is not directed against the EU (!)… And yes, nobody will set any conditions to Hungary! Of course, Orbán also told us that what he had done was like clearing the “ruins”, i.e. destruction wrought by Soros. After the Brussels news, a lengthy presentation of the havoc in Macedonia, where the “fake NGOs of Soros” are destroying the whole country. When “Terror Mari” Schmidt appeared in the studio, I had had enough. Really, these “news broadcasts” do remind one of the bad old times.

Ferenc
Guest

Regarding the “National Insultation” I’ve seen reports that government people will tour the country to ‘discuss’ the questions with the people. And make clear that it is ‘very important for Hungary’ that they fill the form and send/return it to the government.
Also regular showing of ‘ordinary people’ telling they filled in already and find it a Hungarian duty to send/return it. Continuing with data from the government about total numbers of received filled forms.
The opposition should really do something against this nonsense!!
Possibilities: distribute the EU commissions reply, collect forms from people, who don’t accept the Insultation (and make it clear on their form!), require a regulation/law about procedures of a Nat.Consultation, start a referendum against the current consultation, etc.

Ferenc
Guest

PS: people from the EU Commission/Parliament should consider visiting Hungary now. Not officially, just as private persons, and ask/speak/look around (also watch all media!!) to get the best impression what’s going on in Hungary really and be able to counter the best way possible all things coming from the Hungarian government.

Guest

“How will this end?”

Like everybody else, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Soros, Gates etc., who has ruthlessly amassed a giant fortune, Orban will one day step back and become a philanthropist.

Can anybody come up with a more unlikely prophesy?

Doggo
Guest

“What do I mean by independent sources? Non-Hungarian sources”

if someone is non-Hungarian is that by itself a virtue?

Observer
Guest

Everything non related to the Hungarian regime IS virtuous by comparison, it is criminal a priory.

Observer
Guest

In other words, everything emanating from this regime should be considered a lie, a theft or a crime until proven otherwise. I know a couple of legit things, not many though.

jopa
Guest

Obser, how much does Mr. Soros pays for you to spill your stupidity here?

Guest

Troll alarm …

We’ve seen more intelligent trolls before here, but it seems Fidesz is running out …
PS:
I take that back, all the trolls were obviously very limited …

LwiiH
Guest

It means that the Hungarian press is not free to report as the events have unfolded but must conform to the views of the ruling party where as others can report on the facts. Case in point, the press here reports the CEU as being a Soro’s university. Not strictly false but it is a strong distortion of the facts made to the parties narrative. So close to being false that it’s for all intensive purposes…. false.

aida
Guest

It depends on the context. Hungarian sources are tainted because of the Orban regime policy of obliterating opposition or even objective media coverage. Very similar to the Kadar regime. We used to listen to foreign, IOW non Hungarian news sources.

Doggo
Guest

“”“Prime Minister Viktor Orbán pledged in the EPP council to follow and carry out all the demands of the European Commission within the time frame set by the commission.” That time frame is 30 days. “”

The 30 days is for replying to the letter. European law does not work by fiat. If there is a serious debate it will be decided by the European Court of Justice.

It is very important not to confuse the 30 days time limit. The 30 days is by the time Hungary has to respond to the letter. Some people are trying to confuse this date with other dates I think. They have to respond to a letter, that is all.

Ferenc
Guest

Start shitting your pants, Doggy??

Doggo
Guest

“Today Frans Timmermans reiterated that Orbán must meet the European Commission’s demands. “We’re very firm on this. I will not drop this ball.” ”

The European Commission can not set “demands” towards Hungary or any other country. They can make requests which are very often rejected and the issue goes to an independent European Court.

The EC has no right by itself to set any such demands, there is a legal process that has to be followed, politics does not play into it much.

The most likely event is that the Hungarian version of this University will continue as before but they will not be allowed to issue US degrees until they decide to follow the law and satisfy conditions such as possessing a full US campus, not just a US mailbox. Which is the law in many other European countries such foreign universities are not allowed to exist under any circumstances. Compared to those countries (even in many German states in Federal Germany – such universities are simply prohibited) the Hungarian law is very generous.

eak
Guest

CEU has been legally operational as a university in the last 25 years. To close a legally operating non-profit business by bringing a new law is unheard-of. Your argument that there are some states of Germany where foreign universities cannot operate legally is completely irrelevant to this question.

Guest

^Totally agree!
And to add to this:
CEU is the only university in Hungary that is internationally well known for its academic results.

Gabor Toka
Guest
It seems to me that the EPP cannot be fooled by Orban any more, but that does not mean they know what on earth they could do about him. Re Lex CEU, the Commission started a proceeding on Wednesday using an objection that the Fidesz people fill very-very confident that they can deal with. The Commission is yet to utter a word about freedom of research and study being undermined by Lex CEU. What they opted to criticize in the Hungarian law (that an American university would face some regulatory obstacles in offering certain type of degrees in Hungary) is, in the view of the Fidesz folks, blatantly violated by national legislation in many EU member states, and the law in several German states. I have no clue about the intricacies of the comparative legal arguments about this, but if Fidesz were right about this, they can at the end leave the battlefield with a very satisfied smile on their face. Of course this may be down to how the Commission operates, i.e. that the commissioner for education (who is from Fidesz) can prevent the Commission asking questions about freedom of education, study and research. If so, then they could… Read more »
Member

Gabor Toka
Do not believe about what Fidesz says about aledged similar laws in other countries.
This is, what they claim always. Even once with their Media laws.

Like Observer correctly noted above:
Anything The Orbans utter You can consider a lie until it is proved otherwise.

Gabor Toka
Guest

And they got away with 90-95% of the media law and nearly all of the election administration law, did not they? Do not underestimate the variation one can find in the legislation of 20+ countries, especially when the continental cult of the “word of the law as it is” allows you to take everything out of context.

Ferenc
Guest

And look to what happened with the media after that law……

Member

Another thing is – given there are some similarities with other countries laws – that no one else would change the rules durin the game, especially without talking with the ones concerned.
It is like saying, we have no more Kfts and all companies must close, because in Denmark they neither have them.

Doggo
Guest
“This is a crucial junction in the tug-of-war between Orbán and the European Union. Orbán’s defeat is likely” Elections will happen i Hungary in early 2018 less than 1 year from now. In a few months the election campaign will be in full swing. If the EU tries to interfere in the 2018 election to “defeat Orban” as you say it will be an unprecedented amount of election interference. As the US example showed foreign interference in an election is a very touchy subject, sometimes getting a substantial reaction from the countries in terms of sanctions and expulsion of diplomats. But of course more than that a segment of the population becomes very agitated as were Democrat voters over foreign election interference in the United States. Even if Hungary does not react anything officially no sanctions no nothing, such a substantial interference in Hungarian elections as trying to force change into existing laws in the middle of an election campaign will result in a very severe reaction from the population in terms of their election choices. Parties that support such extreme foreign interference can expect a substantial drop in support while parties that stand against foreign interference, their supporters become… Read more »
Minusio
Guest
The credible information furnished by credible people shows no evidence that anything has really changed. So I follow my hunch – as I did seven years ago. The constellation I have described yesterday has not changed. I never believed that the EU Commission or the EPP presidency are naïve. However, the leading personnel abhors bloody operations. In addition, the situation is not right for anyone. Merkel might prefer not to decide anything – she hates decisions, anyway – before the German elections. Joseph Daul wants to be loved by everybody. Perhaps he doesn’t want to give Le Pen a reason to point to the EU as “meddling” in domestic affairs? Perhaps everybody in Brussels thinks that harsh sanctions against Orbán would be best next year for maximum impact (Hungarian elections in 2018 – if there are any)? The Lex-CEU was passed April 4. It took the EU and the EPP almost a month to react at all. Now, another 30 days for Orbán’s compliance. The formulations that filtered through are so vague that they beg for clarification after yet another 30 days or so. By then it’s end of June and the holidays season begins. Doesn’t this look like everybody… Read more »
wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘I cannot see any dynamics in this sordid affair when there is none’

You know for one thing the EU has indeed brought Orban to his medieval ‘Canossa’. The ‘excommunication’ thing looked as it affected his sleep and he just had to don the ‘hairshirt’. If as Prof notes he may have lost this round the fact remains is that he would still look master in his own home. He still has a mighty power base.

Will it change power dynamics at home? I don’t know. Mr. Orban arguably has been taken down a peg. But some personalities resent that if they consider it humilation. And they act accordingly to repair the damage to their identity.

Ferenc
Guest
Ferenc
Guest
Guest

Thanks!
Hungarian legislation will continue to prohibit the existence of higher education institutions which engage in no real activity, and simply operate like offshore mailboxes.
What does that mean? Is this idiotic statement meant to describe CEU? These people are even more stupi than I thought. Compare this to what the TIMES Higher Education index (I quoted this already) says on CEU’s quality …

Guest

If “nothing happens” in Hungary i e Fidesz policies re freedom of information continue in the direction of North Korea (only state owned news and media), the law on CEU is not really changed and CEU is forced to close (or rather to move to another country …) that is proof that Fidesz really doesn’t care about democratic values, fredom of expression, teaching etc.
That would be a clear sign for everybody that in the long run Hungary has to leave the EU – or Fidesz has to be defeated politically (which is a bit improbable).
And that would prove our petofi right – Hungarians don’t belong to Europe but in Putin’s empire!
Good bye or rather good riddance then!

PS:
The EU could well live with that, Hungary is not as important as some Hungarians tend to believe, and business with Hungary would continue as usual – like with Turkey, Russia, China and other undemocratic and less developed states.
And the good news for the EU:
Production in Hungary would be cheap and more brain drain from Hungary to the West – many highly motivated and qualified people would emigrate …
Just like under Horthy and in Kádár times …
Hungary back to the 19th Century!

bimbi
Guest
The Fidesz Party Peacock Parade is in full swing. In the blog we are told: “He [Orbán] didn’t say at the EPP meeting that he will withdraw the law [Lex CEU?]. He simply promised to fulfill the demands. He is correct in saying that it is a legal issue.” NO, HE IS NOT! If “it” in the last sentence means that the withdrawal of Orbán’s made-to-measure Lex CEU to place the university outside the “law” is a legal issue, that is correct. If “it” means the question of the arbitrary closure of an institute of higher education that until three weeks ago fully operated within the law, then there is NO legal issue. That is completely at variance with any principle of the EU or any responsible, democratic government. Why is this hard to understand? Do not be confused by these evasions and linguistic contortions of Orbán and his gang! The EU and the EPP, Mr. Daul and the rest of them are pussy-footing around with this criminal parading himself as a Prime Minister. It cannot be too difficult to write a brief statement telling Mr. Orbán what he has to do for his robotic Fidesz MEPs to be retained… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

“government’s communication experts will need all the tools they can muster to sell this particular debacle as a victory”
Checked M1 news reports from yesterday, and indeed they are pulling all the plugs to do so. Very peculiar were the even more vicious attacks on Soros (M1 news used Magyar Idok, Origo and Echo TV with ‘Herr Bayer und Frau Schmidt’).
They reported also that Soros, and he alone, is responsible for the current situation in Macedonia, they had a long item about the ‘chaos’ there, but apart from the well-known happenings in the parliament nothing such was shown. On the contrary the reporter was standing on the street in front of the parliament and it was quiet, some cars passing by and some police around (reporter claimed it was full with police, but what they showed were just some policemen next to the parliament, aka bogus-news).

Member

The news from Macedonia were really strange. There was also an archive videoclip from earlier in this year, showing the local anti-Soros activists who have been demonstrating on the streets for months already. Couldn’t help noticing a certain resemblance to the (mostly elderly) Fidesz supporters on the “Peace marches”.

Weljan
Guest

The Story is not about the details, not about law. It is about the values behind the paragraphs. It is about vote hunting for the 2018
M. Parliament elections in Hungary with special regard to the right-wing Jobbik fans.
And do not forget the coming French elections: this is an – only slightly hidden – message: EPP as the largest fraction of the EP does not wish to see a LePen-Orbán-V2-V4 axis. Does he?
The EU does have instruments. More rigorous and more frequent control of the EU money can be painful for the friends and clients of FIDESZ.

Karl Pfeifer
Guest

In order to understand what is happening in Hungary we should read Étienne de La Boétie. In his Essay “Slaves by choice” written around 1548 he gives a detailed Explanation for the Situation in Hungary in 2017.

petofi
Guest

Etienne de La Boetie

Nice reference.
His best friend was Michel de Montaigne. Now there’s someone every Hungarian should read…

Melanie Zuben
Guest

petofi & Karl Pfeifer,
How about YOU reading François Villon: Le Testament? Just a thought. 🙂 (It might cheer you up a little)

Guest

We’re all too old for this “my sweet short life” …

So maybe one of Orbán’s or Áder’s children should play that role?

Stealing seems to be ingrained in the Fidesz mafiosi – is that why you like them so much?

PS:
I read Villon (some of it in the original French, since I grew up in the French Occupied Zone of Germany and learned French) as a pupil and later as a student – together with Brecht’s oeuvre:Baal and the Three Penny Opera.

Though for latefor and Fidesz The Three Penny Novel (would be more fitting – with the famous sentence:
What means the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?
Very appropriate for Fidesz …

bimbi
Guest

The numbers in the European Parliament’s party groupings are: EPP 217, Socialists & Democrats 190. These numbers allow the EPP to be the dominant governing grouping in the parliament and they speak far more clearly than Mr. Daul’s statements. If the EPP loses the 12 Fidesz MEPs, they are down to 205 members which renders them more vulnerable to losing their parliamentary numbers and governing dominance. The EPP cannot and will not expel Fidesz for this reason and Mr. Daul will continue to be pacified by Orbán’s “assurances”.

Party beats people every time – in Hungary and in the EU.

Istvan
Guest
How in the world can it be expected that the EPP will effectively address Orban and Fidesz when the EPP embraced the Bulgarian party GERB (Citizens for European Development of Bulgaria) that was controlled by Boyko Borisov. Borisov was a body guard who in the communist years he worked at the Interior Ministry Institute, leaving with doctoral degree in “The Psychological and Physical Training of Operatives.” Borisov claimed to be a fighter against corruption in Bulgaria, but was accused by the magazine U.S. Congressional Quarterly (CQ) of being directly linked to the biggest mobsters in Bulgaria. US intelligence knew he was a close associate of known mobsters and linked to almost 30 unsolved murders in the Bulgaria. According to a confidential report compiled by former top U.S. law enforcement agency officials Borisov had used his position as the Chief Secretary of the Bulgarian Interior Ministry to help organized crime bosses attack their opponents (see http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=77632 ). Joseph Daul who Eva indicates in passing in her essay is a leader in the EPP who is highly critical of Orban’s policies towards CEU, NGOs, and hostility to Europe. Daul was himself under investigation for misuse of public funds in France. He was… Read more »
Jean-Paul
Guest
I’m afraid Eva is too optimistic. For one, although some members of EP and EPP are not all naive and realize what’s going on in Hungary, many do not know really Hungarian reality and what’s at stake. They will be fooled by Orbán and his legalese, and in fact willingly so. Indeed, they have many matters that seem more important right now, Brexit, how to deal with the disillusion of Europeans with the EU, what paths to adopt for the future of the EU, etc. In that context, it may look to them that dealing with Orbán’s double standards, with what’s going on in a small Easter-European country is really not a priority and it’s better, even if at the price of voicing some criticism, to let Orbán have his way once more. Moreover, the EPP will not want to risk a confortable majority and will prefer to keep Orbán inside, especially that they know that he, feeling his position in the EPP threatened, will always vote as asked from him. I’m persuaded that on the long run these are bad choices because, even not considering Hungary itself, they contribute to the loss of credibility of the EU in the… Read more »
Guest

There are two different points here:

O is fooling no one in the Western EU – just look at the reports in the media like the Spiegel.
On the other hand, yes Hungary is not that important, Brexit and Putin are much bigger problems and LePen – nobody has an idea yet what will happen at the French elections, second round.

But generally the rise of nationalism, xenophobia, illiberalism in much of Europe is a problem so the EU has to find a general solution, not only for Hungary and Fidesz – and that’s not easy!
Who would have thought that in the 21nd Century with all the information at hand people would return to nationalist, sometimes fascist ideas of the 19th Century?
And these people often call themselves Christian!

I have to admit that I was surprised – in Germany we always had around 10% potential voters for the extreme right wing (NPD, Republikaner, now AfD) but almost 20% (or even more!) like in East Germany?

My only explanation is that those almost 50 years under the “Communists” destroyed the understanding of democratic concepts for many people in the Eastern part of Europe – really sad.

Pole
Guest

Democratic open society never existed in Central Europe. Comunism could not destroy what never existed i.e. Look on interwar autocracies in our region.

Guest

For me it’s about the development and understanding of democracy – it took us people in Western Germany a lot of time too.
But imho Eastern Europe is 50 years behind Western Europe though we had hoped that they might catch up – as the success of AfD in East Germany shows they didn’t really, at least not all of them.

PS:
I know that geographically Hungary etc are part of Central Europe but politically and in their mindset they are “Eastern” or “Balkan”- just think about the developments in Poland, as bad as in Hungary …

wrfree
Guest
Re: ‘Democratic open society never existed in Central Europe’ Well maybe just for a few naive years on paper after the Wall lost its bricks. Problem then though the soil was too poor to for democracy to grow and withstand the apparent ‘free for all’ within the area. Democracy then perhaps only worked for a few. Matolcsy’s eyes give an idea probably of the zeitgeist and what it opened up. And naturally the West gets beaten up for it today. No doubt the West in some ways went ga-ga seeing the changes to its advantage with those ‘open’ markets. Unfortunately those who came, saw and conquered never could understand Eastern Europe and what they went through n the previous century. Too much too soon didn’t do anybody any favors…on both the East and West sides. Consequently a democratic tradition was difficult to implement. So so much for ’89. It’s a blip in ‘democratic’ history. ‘Walls’ are going up again. Eastern Europe sure loves its walls. The isolation is palpable. It arguably makes them ‘comfortable’ with that kind of hard-nosed idea as opposed to ‘soft’ democracy where everything has to be talked out almost endlessly with nothing seemingly getting done. And… Read more »
Hardy
Guest

My understanding having lived a couple of years in Hungary is

1. Eating pork diminishes your IQ with at least 20 points although that can vary a bit from person to person for better or for worse.
2. The Hungarian saying “An optimist is somebody who is uninformed” is definitely not true because then most Hungarians would be optimists which they obviously aren’t.

wrfree
Guest

OT: Apparently from an article by L Bayer asylum seekers in the Kiskunhalas camp aren’t getting food courtesy of the government. Against the law.

???? Szent Istvan the poor fellow has to be rolling over in his crypt. For when it comes to charity the majority of his country’s posterity except for some would seem to be ‘out to lunch’.

So in the main I would suggest Magyarorszag at this point does not have a problem with economics or politics but rather an extremely serious problem with morality and ethical behavior. The country undoubtedly travels in a moral and dilapidated wilderness.

Zsuzsa
Guest
Member

This is absolutely outraging.
Strange, that it isn’t reported by international press

Member

One day later
After the the masters of appeasement of EPP proudly presented their taming of Orban and were happy to keep their Fidesz colleagues in their family, as we know, the bad boy Orban again fooled them.
This is, what the post was about.

Now I am curious how EPP will react.

Orban made fools of them and it was widely reported in international media today, that Orban deceived EPP.

Even if Orban intends to deliver, as Merkel demanded, any rest of self respect should make Daul and Weber to bring the game to an end.

Hardy
Guest

What would you expect from a mostly Catholic party. When they’re done with the choir boys there is hardly time left for morality. Daul and Weber have no self respect. They only have votes.

Member

It seems so as You say.
I am too naive.
They probably will continue the ‘dialogue’ with Orban, success story since 7 years.

Hardy
Guest

I hope that capital Y is a typo

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