Will the little fish eat the big one? MSZP’s struggle with Ferenc Gyurcsány’s ghost

We all know that the Hungarian political left is in trouble. Opinion polls month after month show that Fidesz’s popularity is going up while the popularity of the parties on the left either stagnates or actually decreases. Not even their most optimistic sympathizers could say today that the six or seven larger and smaller parties have much of a chance of effecting a change of government in April 2018. Of course, there are still nine months to the finish line and some unexpected event might turn the wheel of fortune in favor of the democratic opposition, but by now few people believe in the possibility of such a miracle.

Six months have gone by since László Botka, mayor of Szeged, announced his interest in becoming the Hungarian Socialist Party’s candidate for the premiership. The announcement was received with great enthusiasm. It was hoped that the successful politician who has been reelected mayor of Szeged four times would revitalize the party, which then would be able to gather the other smaller parties into a single political alliance that could attract the large block of uncommitted voters. These expectations came to naught, and with the failure to produce results came disillusionment within the party and among supporters of the left-liberal opposition parties in general.

There are several reasons for Botka’s failure, including some personality traits such as a lack of charm. To put it more bluntly, he is not a likable person. He also proved to be far too autocratic in handling his fellow politicians inside and outside of his own party. His refusal to negotiate with Ferenc Gyurcsány, chairman of the Demokratikus Koalíció (DK), turned the sizable bloc of DK voters against him. Finally, and this is the most important reason for the current dissatisfaction with Botka in MSZP, his strategy seems to lead nowhere.

By the beginning of July the Hungarian media was full of stories about Botka’s battling “enemies within the party.” He called the whole party leadership to Szeged at that time and read them the riot act. He threatened unnamed persons who, according to him, malign his name, leak confidential material, and falsify public opinion data with disclosing their names in front of cameras. In brief, he tried to portray himself as the tough guy. But the complaints about him by his fellow politicians didn’t come to an end. The word was out that if the popularity of the party doesn’t improve, Botka will be out on his ears by September.

After weeks of whispering, the first important MSZP politician, Zsolt Molnár, chairman of the parliamentary committee on national security, published an article critical of Botka’s handling of the campaign. Molnár emphasized the enormous importance of the coming election. Another four years of Fidesz rule would have terrible consequences for the country. He admitted that Fidesz is still very strong and in the next few months the government will be able to further boost the party’s popularity, but he still believes that the election can be won. However, he continued, the MSZP leadership “must take cognizance of the fact that there is no chance of beating [Orbán’s regime] without cooperation with Ferenc Gyurcsány and DK.” Gyurcsány is the leader and symbol of his party who will not retire just because Botka insists on his withdrawal from politics. Gyurcsány doesn’t want to replace Botka, but he has every right to be a member of parliament on account of his party’s substantial electoral support. The democratic opposition should concentrate on the removal of Viktor Orbán, not Ferenc Gyurcsány.

Zsolt Molnár / Source: Vasárnapi Hírek

It took about a week for László Botka to retort, but today he let it all out in an interview in 168 Óra. He indicated that there are some MSZP politicians who are actually in the pay of Fidesz, but, according to him, there are also several well-intentioned but naive souls who don’t realize that they are being taken. With their actions and statements they help Fidesz remain in power. I assume that Molnár is one of the naive people Botka was talking about. He made it clear that he will not tolerate “betrayal and collaboration with Fidesz.”

A few hours later Zsolt Molnár continued the verbal duel in HVG. He repeated his earlier arguments about the necessity of including Gyurcsány in a joint effort but, most importantly, he indicated that his position within the party is strong enough that he doesn’t have to worry too much about Botka’s wrath. HVG asked him about the risk that, because of his opposition to Botka, he might be placed so low on the party list that he will not be able to be a member of parliament after 2018. Molnár seems to be certain of his assured place on the list that is put together by the party’s governing committee (választmány). According to people in the know, Molnár is popular. From the interview it also became clear that Botka’s position within the party is not rock solid. There has been talk about going outside the party and asking Gergely Karácsony, chairman of Párbeszéd, to become the candidate of the whole democratic opposition. Actually, as far as I’m concerned, Karácsony would be a good choice. He is a young, likable man who successfully manages Zugló, District XIV of Budapest, despite a Fidesz-majority council.

Zoltán Ceglédi, a rather sharp political analyst, predicted earlier that the surface peace in MSZP would not last long. He anticipates that “MSZP’s history, recent past, and its current state of affairs make it probable that the winner of this match will be Zsolt Molnár.” Moreover, he goes further in stating that “it will be a physical feat when DK, the little fish, eats the larger socialist one, not all at once but slowly, bite by bite. It can be achieved.” He agrees with Molnár that “Botka, with his idea of a common party list minus Gyurcsány, will only run into a stone wall time and again.” MSZP is in the process of committing suicide, in his opinion.

Apparently Zsolt Molnár’s position within the party is quite solid. As 444.hu puts it, “the party leaders on both sides agree that Zsolt Molnár is stronger within the party than an average member of the governing committee. He is apparently an important figure in the large and powerful Budapest contingent. Molnár’s main supporters within the party are politicians who have official positions in city councils and who are convinced that if DK candidates go up against them they will inevitably lose their seats.

Lately MSZP politicians are less willing to share inside stories with journalists, and so far few of them are ready to say anything about the Botka-Molnár affair. Party Chairman Gyula Molnár didn’t want to talk at all, but he was emphatic that he doesn’t consider Zsolt Molnár a traitor, as Botka claimed in his interview. HírTV got hold of Ferenc Baja, a real socialist old timer, who pretty much echoed Molnár’s contention that the road to Viktor Orbán’s defeat is not through “finding internal enemies.”

As far as Gyurcsány is concerned, I’m sure that he is intently watching what’s going on in MSZP, although he tries to give the impression of indifference. We mustn’t forget that his decision to leave MSZP and establish DK was a watershed in the history of the socialist party. As the Hungarian saying goes, the socialists can neither digest nor spit out Ferenc Gyurcsány. Although he has been away from the party for the last six years, his ghost is still there, casting a shadow on MSZP.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if MSZP eventually split. Ceglédi might not be too far off in predicting that the pro-Gyurcsány faction may end up in the Demokratikus Koalíció. But even if the two factions patch up their differences, with the kind of discord that exists in the socialist party it cannot assume the mantle of leader of the Hungarian democratic opposition.

July 27, 2017
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Guest

Reading this one gets the impression that the situation in Hungary is hopeless …
On the positive side:
I was really surprised when I saw on facebook that our young ones had linked to that Soros interview They found it themselves …) – and there were several positive comments!

So maybe not all hope is lost, but it’ll be a long way for Hungary to become a real democracy …

petofi
Guest

Democracy?

It’ll be a long way for the US to, again, become a democracy…

wrfree
Guest

The Mooch scare in’ ya eh? Zsolt’s ghost has finally come to visit.
And yes the world wonders what is going ’round the WH insane asylum.

Guest

I agree with you, petofi – I’ve been disappointed by the USA (which I’ve visited almost 30 times …) and I don’t get it because all the people I know there are “leftist liberals” from the science Fiction authors to their readers …

The same goes for the UK – my family and friends there are also left-liberal and of course Hungary and Germany too.

So you might call it “cognitive bias” – I only know people who think like me or at least not too differently …

The few right wingers that I’ve come to know more intimately in my life didn’t make a lasting impression on me – I “unfriended” most of them (not only on facebook) but in real life!

Member
Many Socialists are convinced that a list with Ferenc Gyurcsany’s name near the top will be an electoral loser. On the one hand, they are correct: Many of the people who voted for Fidesz in 2010 and 2014, but could conceivably switch sides in 2018, will be turned off by Gyurcsany. On the other hand, the MSZP cannot win without cutting a deal with the DK. Part of the problem is Hungarian politicians’ inability to “take one for the team” — to support a policy or a candidate that they personally consider distasteful for the sake of the greater good. Gyurcsany needs to recognize that he is too controversial for electoral politics. He should sacrifice his ego and become the eminence grise behind the “united left.” Zsolt Molnar, meanwhile, proved himself to be a weak campaign manager in 2014 and should sacrifice his own ambitions for the sake of party unity. In any case, the entire discussion of a “united left” victory in 2018 is moot. Even if all Orban opponents (minus Jobbik) were to unite behind a single candidate, the maximum number of individual consitutencies they could win next year is 15 of 106, in my estimation. That is… Read more »
Guest

Alex, I totally agree – but it seems the MSZP , DK etc are either totally clueless or …
become the eminence grise would of course be the best strategy but G’s ego probably won’t allow that.

Member

Alex: “the maximum number of individual consitutencies they [united left] could win next year is 15 of 106”

1. I think they would win more, if the opposition was really united
2. One never knows what will happen until the election

Unfortunately a maximum cooperation and common election campain seems impossible, not only because of MSZPs stupidity, but also thanks to LMP and Momentums basic principle, not to cooperate with any other party.

Well, as my two points are highly unlikely, you are probably right @Alex.
But don’t give up hope !

Here is another disillusioning article about this topic by Christopher Adam:

http://hungarianfreepress.com/2017/07/27/hungarys-left-centre-opposition-is-in-shambles-9-months-before-elections/

wrfree
Guest

Perhaps disillusion is an understatement as the ‘left.. goes really after each other’s throats’ according to Adam. And VO doesn’t need the guillotine to get everybody in line as the opp is the immediate suspect of its own demise.

And as far as hope. Some situations can’t be hopeless. It’s only comes to down to individuals who grow hopeless about them. The opp leadership needs to keep that in mind. Or they simply can pack things up and passively watch the rude ‘Orbanization’ of the country ride.

exTor
Guest
Nine months before the Hungarian national election, I am now reminded of Stephen Harper, who was finishing his second term as prime minister of Canada in the autumn of 2014, one year before the 2015 election, when talk surfaced of an anybody-but-Harper movement. Consider Harper, the head of the Conservative Party [formerly Progressive Conservative Party], as a less-bad version of Viktor Orbán, whom he looks like faintly. There was a lot of negative talk about Harper, as there is now with Orbán, however it was not then certain the Harper government could be unseated, just as there is much (justifiable) doubt about unseating VO. I dont know what became of the open antiHarper maneuvering, whether there was any strategic candidate placement, however the mere talk of such action, regardless of reality, put negative thoughts in the mind of the electorate. The Liberals got 40% of the votes, garnering more seats than the other parties combined. Justin Trudeau became the new PM. All manner of negative talk about Fidesz will serve to undermine Fidesz’s hold on those voters tenuously connected to it. Negative contraFidesz talk should include the possibility of strategic voting in Hungary. It should also include incorporating an antiFidesz… Read more »
petofi
Guest

@ exTor

I’m seriously considering your Troll aspects…because you keep considering the Hungarian political climate as legitimate.
Nonsense. And, comparing Harper & Orban??? Who’s payiing your internet fees, sir?

Fact is, all political talk in Hungary is navel-gazing and wishful thinking: Orban wins as long as he wishes to stay in power (to be determined by uncle Putin).

One thing is certain, no one will be defeating Vickie through the polls-

exTor
Guest

You’re confused, petőfi. Viktor Orbán is legit in the sense that Fidesz was legally elected to head the government. There was no military takeover. Everything was done by the ballotbox.

Comparing Harper to Orbán is valid so we can get a sense of Harper. Saying that something that had been attempted in Canada might be valid also in Hungary is not a disqualification. We’re talking electoral systems that work similarly, even if the players here are (perhaps much) different.

The difference between Canada and Hungary is that there were two strong parties [Liberal Party and New Democratic Party] opposing Harper’s party. Nothing like that exists in Hungary, where the opposition is fragmented.

Your “all political talk in Hungary is navelgazing and wishful thinking” POV is contradictory and defeatist. There are talkers who are also doers, which is the antithesis of navelgazing. Hungarian Spectrum readers, for the most part, just bitch amongst themselves. I include myself in that assessment.

Yes, quite likely the desire to defeat Viktor Orbán is wishful thinking, as you suggested, however the negative political situation can be somewhat mitigated to the extent that the two-thirds majority is denied to Fidesz.

Finally, you are too fixated on Putin.

MAGYARKOZÓ

wrfree
Guest

With the image of Mr. Gyurcsany as of tainted goods it is evident that among the ant-Fidesz delegations the issue suggests it’s hard to get individuals who drive to engage in political risk. Rather there seems to be an aversion. They apparently can see risky activities surely only gives short careers.

So far the anti-Fidesz troop is low to mediocre in checking the rolling political ‘machine’ which continues its run in autocracy. If things go the way the have been it is possible dire upheaval will be the tipping point to get more effective leaders who can unite disparate opposition parties and speak with one influential voice. And those leaders could only have certain qualities…. that of crisis management.
At this point those unknowns wait in the wings.

petofi
Guest

Question: If Gyurcsany was really capable of causing any problem for Orban, would Gyurcsany still retain his wealth? his liberty? his life…?

(Do commenters not know what Putin has done to his opposition in Russia?)

Metzger
Guest
Honestly, this polling obsession is totally self defeating. Instead of going after their instincts and gut feelings, impotent politicians want to cater to basically non existent constituencies so as to avoid any conflicts. It did not work in the US and it certainly does not work in Hungary. Trump went after his instincts (day after day battling conventional wisdom) and eventually massacred Democratic smartasses. This polling mania leads to nowhere like in the case of the Budapest Olympics case which established Momentum even though it was an issue that was available to MSZP and DK and others too. Yet they followed polls and wanted to avoid upsetting voters. But voters hate wishy washy flip floppers. They want deciders with a clear vision, politicians who will be able to stand up against the EU, the multinationals and other powerful actors, not impotent wusses wth a polling mania. As Gabor Torok pointed on facebook today the difference between TARKIs polls published yesterday and Zaveczs numbers published today is a crisp 1.1m Fidesz voters. So whom do you choose to believe? Yet leftist politicians without any ideas, vision, perennially wanting to avoid conflicts still apparently rely on polls. Insanity. Yet, I am sure… Read more »
Member

I am not leftist, but I welcome Herr Laurence Metzger, alias Lőrinc Mészáros. His views is most important for the hungarian future. ) :

exTor
Guest

Just before the US election, I made a comment (in passing) to a group of Americans that it looked like Trump was going to lose. I, like most others, believed the poll numbers. Boy, were they wrong.

Polling obsession selfdefeating? You likely mean it both ways, Metzger. Your primary message is that politicians should get ahead of the polls, going by what they feel is right, not being reactive to poll results.

I agree with that POV. Generally, one must be driven by one’s convictions, not by the public’s responses to them. Cant lead from the rear.

The other negative attached to polls is the overweening attention paid to poll results, as if they are life-or-death.

Aside from the nambypambiness of the Left’s apparent unwillingness to go against the Hungary Olympics bid, I dont see that the main problem is the lack of “ideas, vision” coming from the Left.

The major problem is a splintered Left that is too ego-contrary to unite with others to defeat the greater threat.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Winston
Guest

MetzgerVogel: “Yet leftist politicians without any ideas, vision …”

So Vogel, we know already your stories about the incapable ‘Lefties’ from many comments of yours.

Now it’s time, that you tell us something about the superior features of the ‘Righties’!
One thing, you told us already’ more often than once: To convince (of what) the white working class (whatever this is), politicians should neither be intellectual nor honest nor weak.

Here, as a German, knowing that a peculiar person as Merkel, still has the biggest support, and far right parties even during the refugee crisis couldn’t gain more than 15 percent, I believe that people can be convinced without lies and oppression.

And, as a free mind, I wouldn’t ever think of voting for far right parties.
Because I also want to say, what I think, without being accused as a traitor or to get imprisoned.

Istvan
Guest
There is a deep crisis in social democracy internationally. The total rout of Socialist Party of France by Emmanuel Macron and the defeat of the SPD in the North Rhine-Westphalia its historic power base really could be the end game for that brand in Europe as it has been known. The MSZP clearly lacks any real socialist vision to separate itself from a neo-liberal vision. My guess is that the future of the left will be the anarchist black block and an agenda for very radical transformation. I also don’t see It very unfortunately is gaining traction amongst alienated sectors of European youth. There is a pervasive feeling among youth that the existing system in Hungary and many other countries can not be democratically replaced. Effectively all the rules are made by the system, everything is tailored to them and not just in Hungary. The MSZP is burdened the fact that 10 years after joining the EU Hungary still has ridiculously low wages. Hungary has one of the lowest pensions in Europe and its health and education been on the brink of collapse for years. The MSZP historically has some responsibility for all of this and it simply can’t be… Read more »
Aida
Guest
Istvan makes a point about a “deep crisis” of social democracy world wide. It is true that this is not its finest hour, but we should not exaggerate. Electoral success for Trump, Brexit, the Polish and the Hungarian regimes are setbacks, certainly. Macron’ win offers relief because at least the catastrophic result of Brexit was not copied by the French and rejected Le Pen. There are other straws in the wind. Trump’s administration will disintegrate shortly, which is good news for those who detest this oaf. A rudderless Free World is bad news and we cannot afford it for long. The wheels maybe coming off Brexit. It maybe that Brexit light will trigger some revisions in the harshness of the rules the EU still deems essential. All dogma, however well intentioned, is just that. Social Democracy, being a softer derivative of Socialism is still steeped in the causes that brought it to life. That must never be forgotten if it is to survive. Orwell understood this, hence Animal Farm. To many the spectacle of Tories or worse mascarading as leaders of Socialist movements, such as Blair and others, is stomach turning. It is scarsely surprising that people feel betrayed by… Read more »
Guest

Aida, you nailed it there – totally agree!
The reality, I believe, is that liberal values and Social Democracy will overcome the present problems in the West.
And in Germany at least you can include the Greens!

Btw Kretschmar also has important points to make!
PS: Is that nick maybe even based on our Schwab Green Prime Minister Mr Kretschmann?

Can anyone imagine that we really conservative, down to earth Schwabs have a Green majority and a Green Prime Minister – shouldn’t this be a point of hope for everybody?
Fifty years ago, when I was a student,we had the most horrible reactionary clerical fascist “Christian” government imaginable – they had no problems continuing with the Nazi laws …
And now this! How times have changed …

Aida
Guest

You have read the Odessa File?

Guest

I know about it, but it’s not my kind of book …
Anyway I’m kind of proud to have my father’s “denazification” papers: He was a soldie and just an “also ran”, didn’t have any consequences.
And my mother’s family was clearly anti_NSDAP – my uncle was sent to Stalingrad where he just disappeared without a trace …

Aida
Guest

The book is fascinating. It is about how the surviving Nazis protected their comrades. Do not be scared

Member

What does it mean in reality?

wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘My guess is that the future of the left will be the anarchist black block and an agenda for very radical transformation’

Interesting observation. Would be fascinating to see what pops up as the route of going over the fine points of democracy hasn’t worked nor trying to bring back a modicum of ethics in the society. Instead the facts seem everything’s ok with the majority. The opp speaks to closed ears.

Seems that now after the debacle of ‘democracy’ in the earlier years the name of the game is to be ‘taken care of’. Just like the Kadar days. Orban now is the ‘uj bacsi’. And if things are ‘comfortable’ anarchy would probably be the last thing the electorate would want.

kretschmar
Guest

I think Molnar may even be an MSZP chairman one day. Molnar according to his associates was recruited by the Ministry of Interior during the early nineties during his skinhead days (or was this already a mission, an assignment for him?).

In any case there is no way Fidesz would have let Molnar to be the chairman of the national security committee if he was not connected to the Ministry of Interior in a professional capacity (that is to say he was not controlled by his superiors in the ministry that is overseen by Sandor Pinter) and/or if Fidesz did not have a kompromat on Molnar with which he could be controlled totally by Fidesz too.

Quite a career, from a low level snitch to perhaps leading MSZP. Also lets not forget that he was recruited in the very early nineties. The police state was just over, liberalism was at its highest point but Molnar joins the domestic intelligence. It took quite a character to do that. And he could he leading the leftist opposition.

Winston
Guest

@Kretschmar, Metzger,Vogel, Dame,… you are a professional in defaming people.
What you say about Zsolt Molnár is not true!

You are mixing a pseudo background knowledge with conspiracy and lies.

Together with changing your name frequently this is a disgusting ploy to influence the readers of this blog.

The only ones you have yet not talked bad about are the Jobbiks.
That you are far right, you have proved already many times.

kretschmar
Guest
winston, why are you so certain that you know the truth about Molnar and the leftwing? 444.hu wrote an article which stated as clearly as possible without invoking a defamation suit (which in Hungary can be a criminal trial also) that Molnar is associated with the Ministry of Interior. You have no idea about Fidesz if you think an MSZP politician can suddenly be (when Molnar was elected years ago) the chairman of the national security committee without being “absolutely reliable”. In 1990 Fidesz did everything to gain that post for Laszlo Kover when Gabor Demszky became mayor of Budapest. Fidesz knew it was of paramount importance to get that position. Fidesz would not let that position to be gained by anybody. This is not Germany but Hungary, you have to know the paranoia and corruption of top Fideszniks to understand this I guess. Also as the 444.hu article wrote there are now rather colorful rumours of corruption told by influential, rich, well placed people leaning to Fidesz and the left wing too (I heard several of those stories too from such people). Of course no journalist can publish those because in a defamation suit everybody will deny the story… Read more »
Member

!There is a pervasive feeling among youth that the existing system in Hungary and many other countries can not be democratically replaced. Effectively all the rules are made by the system, everything is tailored to them and not just in Hungary”

And they are right to feel that. Orban will not permit defeat at the ballot box. It is not immoral or illegal to dismiss an immoral and illegal government by any other means.
Is there the appetite to take on the fascists with these extra-parliamentary means? In the country as a whole, no. Within Budapest, quite possibly.

Metzger
Guest

Dont be ridiculous. Look at the Momentum kids (they are the active kids who at least want to do something) and decide for yourself whether they are ruthless and disciplined revolutionaries or bourgeoisie kids from Buda?

Orban and his friends (all from rural places who knew what it is like to be beaten by your dad day after day and well into your twenties) were revolutionaries by the way. They have discipline and they were ruthless. They achieved what they set out (unfortunately). Todays youth is different.

Member

“Dont be ridiculous.”
Orban lost his Olympics, why?
Budapest. You at the time told us (under one of your manifold guises) that the Olympics were going to happen because , well just because the wife and kid beating fascists are omnipowerful. Wrong. The fat dictator will fall as did Ceaucescu, Saddam and Gaddafi before him. All three were once considered invincible and had the power of proper and ruthless military behind them. Orban is surrounded by incompetent morons at evry level because it is only morons he trusts.

“Orban and his friends (all from rural places who knew what it is like to be beaten by your dad day after day and well into your twenties) were revolutionaries by the way.”

Revolutionaries? Don`t make make me laugh. Orban has been and always be an opportunist.He waited unril the “revolution” was safely won before he raised his voce. He would sell his daughters, wife and mother off as prostitutes if it meant winning another election. that is the extent of revolutionary courage

Member

Metzgerkretschmer calls us ridiculous intellectual weaklings. In Germany folks like him, i.e. AFD Pegida white working Nazi class , they call us Gutmenschen. Yes, they have a swareword for people, who are good, humane, respect human rights and democracy.
So Kretschmermetzgers can’t possibly be insulted, if we just call them/him as…e(s).

Member

Yes, I know his sort from back home.

Far-right supporters/apologists who applaud the kind of violence we saw last week against defenceless women because it is what the “real” people want. Along with brutalizing refugees, beating up gays and anyone who doesn`t belong to white magyar master-race. If those are the kind of “polices” needed to bring down the dictatorship by democratic means give me honourable direct action

Fuuny enough when his fascist overlords suffer a defeat (ie the Olympics) then they are nowhere to be found.

Metzger
Guest

May I remind you that there is a huge ideological space between a leftist party like MSZP, DK and Pegida, AFD (Jobbik, Fidesz)?

In Germany this space is occupied by CDU/CSU although it clearly moved to the left under Merkel.

But what if I would also support in Hungary a CDU/CSU type conservative entity (if it was available).

Just because I do not like MSZP (guess what, even the left leaning people are not very enthusiastic about MSZP and DK it seems to me) it does not mean I am a fascist.

This is how liberals like you lose the support of the white working class which is very sensitive about being called fascists by urban educated smarteggs. But without them getting rid of Orban will not be possible. Get used to this. I know you dislike overweight, tattood, uneducated folks who act stupidly and only care about their cars and price of utilities but unless you get to like them you will get nowhere in Hungary politically.

Member

Butcher, I am really not too eager, to be supported by you.
As Winnetou would say: The poor white uneducated butcher speaks with split tongue.
He damns liberals and pretends to favour a democratic party in one sentence.
I hope you didn’t expect me to cry, that you have no CSU.
What about moving to Bavaria. You could earn more money or the unemployment office might finance you some education, that you envy so much.

Member

“But without them getting rid of Orban will not be possible”

Rubbish. Dictators disappear off the scene in many ways but rarely through the ballot box. Your racist, misogynist, homophobic rednecks won`t be needed and indeed their prejudices should not be pandered to…pitied possibly, de-contaminated at some far off point in future hopefully but relied upon to get rid of their Fuhrer? Never in a million years.

Metzger
Guest
Re the Olympics. The candidacy was revoked but otherwise each and every project, stadium is on and being planned by architects or being constructed as we speak. Budapest will host several international games in the coming years and Hungary is a candidate for many more, only the Olympics is not happening but if the FINA games alone cost about 200bn you can imagine how much will the other games, other stadiums cost. In other words Orban has not retreated an inch. You can think Momentum won but the insane projects are being realised and this is what is important. Instead of lets say new subway lines or schools Budapest will get half a dozen new stadiums (for athletics, cycling and the rest) in the coming 5 years. If the new Basic Law, Orbans packing of each and every state organ (from the constitutional court to prosecution to election commitees to company liquidators to notaries public to intelligence agencies) in order to become a reliable arm of Fidesz and the creation of an entirely new elite in business, arts, science and locally (rural local elite) are not considered a revolution that you are not familiar with the definition of revolution. The… Read more »
Member

“In other words Orban has not retreated an inch”

Your unquestioning hero-worship of the thug, like so many in Hungary, blinds you to reality. The fascists, to Orbans obvious rage, withdrew the candidacy because they knew Bpest would humiliate them at the ballot box. Orban retreated pure and simple. Dont rage against the

“Orban is a real, radical, conservative revolutionary but you can continue to dream on.”

No, he is a criminal, an opportunist, a thug.
“Conservative” is merely a label he gives himself, he is no more “conservative” than I am. If he thought describing himself as “wife-beater” would win some more votes, he would label himself that too.

You seem to be unaware of the basic fact that a revolutionary needs to have…er…. a belief in something, he believes in change because he believes he can change society for the better.

Your idol believes in nothing, he is a mafia boss who has threatened and blackmailed his way to power. End of story.

Metzger
Guest
I agree with you that Orban is a thug, a mafia boss who changes his believes quite often. I never said otherwise and I never implied otherwise. But I think he caused much more damage than you can realize. That said Orban is a conservative who subscribes to the Alexander Dugin inspired anti Western ideology. This ideology exists and Orban is a follower. He is certainly not The Economist type conservative but there are other sorts too. Orban is fundamentally antiliberal and his actions have been consistently and fundamentally conservative and authoritarian. Orban is also realizing the Olympics in all but its name, spending the required hundreds of billions per annum which will add up to a few thousands of billions in the next 5 to 6 years. Now you may choose to believe that liberals won and there wont be Olympics but it doesnt take a geniou to realize that if money will be spent on new stadiums in Budapest then it wont be spent on hospitals. So the people of Budapest will suffer regardless of a formal revokation. Orban decided to build stadiums and his buildings will stand. Like it or not. Also what Orban accomplished in the… Read more »
wpDiscuz