Charlottesville from a Hungarian perspective

White supremacists, neo-Nazis, and Ku Klux Klan members rallied in Charlottesville, Virginia, yesterday afternoon “to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump” to “take our country back.” The event ended in tragedy: a full-fledged terrorist attack by a white supremacist. In the end three people were dead and 19 injured. This was the first terrorist attack on U.S. soil since Donald Trump became the 45th president of the United States, and ironically it was committed not by an Islamic extremist but by a man who is most likely an admirer of the president.

David Duke, the former KKK grand wizard who was one of the organizers, announced before the event that the neo-Nazi rally was the fulfillment of President Trump’s vision for the United States. Duke was an enthusiastic supporter of Trump as far back as the Republican primaries. In turn, Trump was reluctant to disavow him when asked to do so by the Anti-Defamation League. He claimed that he didn’t know enough about the group or David Duke. Just as he was unwilling to repudiate his white supremacist followers back in February 2016, he is equally averse now to name the real culprits of the terrorist attack. “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides. On many sides,” he added for emphasis. Most Americans found Trump’s statement, which “couldn’t distinguish between the instigators and the dead,” morally unacceptable. David Duke was also unhappy, but for a different reason. “I would recommend you take a good look in the mirror & remember it was White Americans who put you in the presidency, not radical leftists,” he tweeted.

Some commentators believe that it was Trump’s public show of admiration for Andrew Jackson that told white nationalists their time had come. The Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi website, considered it fitting that Trump was honoring Jackson, whom they call “a white supremacist extremist.” The group created a poster with a quotation from Bannon: “Like Andrew Jackson’s populism, we’re going to build an entirely new political movement.” Trump’s admiration for Jackson also lent credence to the position of Steve King (R-Iowa), a Tea Party conservative for whom America looks very much like the country from the days of the Founding Fathers. King does not welcome immigrants from Central and South America or the Middle East because “we can’t restore our civilization with somebody else’s babies.” I should add that Steve King is a great admirer of Viktor Orbán and his regime. In March-April, when Orbán moved against Central European University and the NGOs, Steve King was elated. “Prime Minister Viktor Orbán leads the way again,” he tweeted. “Marxist billionaire Soros cannot be allowed to influence U.S. elections either.”

Given this background, it is perhaps more understandable why some leading Republicans and Democrats are demanding the immediate removal of Steve Bannon and his sidekick Sebastian Gorka from the White House. These critics call both of them “alt-right neo-fascists.” For example, Richard Painter, who was the chief White House ethics lawyer in the George W. Bush administration, said in an MSNBC panel discussion that “Breitbart News is a racist organization…. This is Breitbart News that you’re watching on the streets of Charlottesville.” For good measure he added that “Bannon needs to be fired, Sebastian Gorka and the rest of the fascists or we have to remove this president.” Democratic Congressman Ruben Gallego called Trump “an absolute racist” on a SiriusXM radio show. He recalled that Trump had refused to comment on the attack or show his support for the American Muslim community in Bloomington, Minnesota. Moreover, his adviser Sebastian Gorka suggested on MSNBC that the bombing may have been faked “by the left.” One ought not to be surprised, Gallego continued, because Trump has surrounded himself with racists like Steve Bannon, Sebastian Gorka, and Stephen Miller.

So Sebastian Gorka is back in the news big time. Not that he has been quiet in the last few months, but at the beginning he was mostly defending himself against charges of being a member of the Vitézi Rend, a knightly order created by Miklós Horthy for heroes of World War I. I have written many articles on the subject, most of which appeared on Hungarian Spectrum. The Vitézi Rend wasn’t a fascist or Nazi organization per se, but after Hungary entered World War II the order ended up on the U.S. State Department’s blacklist of pro-Nazi institutions. On the other hand, given the anti-Semitic nature of the Horthy regime and the anti-Semitism of the governor himself, no Jews could be admitted to the order regardless of military valor. Gorka steadfastly denies his membership, but current leaders of the Vitézi Rend confirmed his participation in the group. We also know that Gorka was involved with an extreme-right group that made its appearance in 2006 during the long vigil of hundreds of people on the square in front of the parliamentary building. He was as well a regular contributor to the anti-Semitic Demokrata, a still existing periodical under the editorship of András Bencsik, a friend and colleague of Zsolt Bayer.

Otherwise, as the White House “pit bull,” Gorka was often on television touting the greatness of Donald Trump, who was apparently thrilled every time he heard Gorka expounding on Fox News. Gorka’s first serious “political comment,” however, didn’t turn out too well. He gave an interview to BBC radio in which he said, in connection with Trump’s threat to North Korea, that “You should listen to the president; the idea that Secretary Tillerson is going to discuss military matters is simply nonsensical.” This comment went too far, and Gorka was forced to backtrack. He claimed that his words were misconstrued and that he was merely saying that the media shouldn’t ask Tillerson questions about military matters.

Gorka survived the Tillerson misstep, but this time he might be in more trouble because a couple of days ago, in a radio interview with Breitbart News, he belittled the danger white supremacists pose. “It’s this constant, ‘Oh, it’s the white man. It’s the white supremacists. That’s the problem.’ No, it isn’t.” And a few hours later comes the Charlottesville tragedy. Unfortunately Charlottesville wasn’t an isolated incident. In the decade after 9/11 the number of right-wing extremist attacks averaged 337 per year, causing a total of 254 fatalities, while Muslim extremists were responsible for a total of 50 deaths in the United States during the same period.

Is Gorka a racist? We have no idea, but some of his words are supportive of a racist culture.

The same question can be asked about Viktor Orbán, and pretty much the same answer given. Orbán’s views on the purity of European culture, which is under siege by outsiders, can easily be interpreted in a racial sense. Viktor Orbán is a devilishly clever politician who can rarely be caught saying something truly inappropriate or something that could be interpreted as a racial slur or as anti-Semitic. On the other hand, there have been innumerable occasions when he uttered sentences that were ambiguous, which only those who are familiar with the cultural context in which they are uttered can properly decipher. It is relatively easy to find Orbán speeches in which he talked about Europeans as a distinct group whose culture must be defended. At one point he even talked about ethnic purity, which his staff found too offensive and removed from the transcript of the speech, only to be found out and forced to reinsert it.

Racism is rampant in Hungary. According to a 2014 poll, 59% of Hungarians wouldn’t consent to a black neighbor and by 2016 80% wouldn’t want to live next door to an Arab. In the United States, according to the Brookings Institute, in 1958 44 percent of American whites said they would move if a black family moved next door; 40 years later, in 1998, the figure was 1 percent. By refusing to disavow white supremacists, Trump and his White House advisers may be helping to turn the clock back to the 1950s.

August 13, 2017
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Istvan
Guest

A fine essay Eva, well written as always.

Andrew Endrey
Guest

I agree, a very measured and fair commentary, the hallmark of this blog.

old1956
Guest

Hail to the antifascist president. Trump spoke again, and blamed all groups which have faith only in violence.

Let us end PC, and send the guilty ones into the dockets of the courts.

Further there are too many fabricators of fake news and history in America who are seriously under the influence of the Active Measures.

petofi
Guest

Not fine. Misleading.

Completely wrong to characterize the event as having three deaths: two of them were accidents away from the event.

AlexN
Guest

Exactly. By this same logic we could survey the Charlottesville area mortuaries and add these numbers to the ‘death toll’. Not ok. Eva is usually more balanced than this.

Joe Simon
Guest

Shrewd piece of syllogism: Orbán is responsible for Charlottesville.

Ferenc
Guest

Shrewd piece of comment: Joe Simon = Orbán

Observer
Guest

Fidesznik Joe

Who said that? U have some comprehension problem or you’re just lying ?

For the slow thinkers: The pattern seen in the case of US fascists (in this case) is valid in Hun too. Remember the only serial killer racists in Europe? They were in Hun, killing gypsies in their beds, children included.
The Orban fascists spewing hatred from all outlets are responsible for the atrocious condition of H society and for the verbal and physical (bloodless so far, but for few bleeding heads) attacks by their supporters.

Fascists would be fascists.

wrfree
Guest

Re: Orban and Charlottesville

Not directly ‘responsible’. Let’s say he can’t be uninterested. He just might even make Budapesht and Charlottesville ‘fraternal sister’ cities. Avenues for the KKK to ‘branch out’. Think of all those stadiums. That’ll get the flags flying.

How could he disagree with the rambunctious fellows and their ideas? They’re white on rice, tough and strong and in the vein of Twain, ‘have the calm confidence of Christians with four aces’. And finally keeps POTUS paying attention to his far-right stump.

tappanch
Guest

“Jewish leaders condemn Charlottesville violence and Trump’s reaction”

A. Rabbi Rick Jacobs, president of the Union for Reform Judaism
B. Ronald Lauder, president of the World Jewish Congress

C. Anti-Defamation League CEO Jonathan Greenblatt:

“We call on the White House to terminate all staff with any ties to these extremists. There is no rationale for employing people who excuse hateful rhetoric and ugly incitement. ”

D. The American Jewish Committee

E. Israeli minister Naftali Bennett, who is the head of the right-wing [by the Israeli definition of the word] Jewish Home party:

“The unhindered waving of Nazi flags and symbols in the U.S. is not only offensive towards the Jewish community and other minorities, it also disrespects the millions of American soldiers who sacrificed their lives in order to protect the U.S. and entire world from the Nazis […] The leaders of the U.S. must condemn and denounce the displays of anti-Semitism seen over the past few days.”

https://www.jta.org/2017/08/13/news-opinion/united-states/jewish-groups-leaders-condemn-charlottesville-violence-trumps-condemnation

tappanch
Guest

“Among the 500 white supremacists were men and women bearing signs like “Goyim know!” (Know what?) and “Jews are satans children.” There were Nazi flags. There were men all in black, t-shirts and slacks and army boots and helmets, jogging along with plastic shields. There were the men who sang of “blood and soil” as they marched to the Emancipation Park event. And when the white supremacists got their act together and gathered in McIntire Park, they shouted “Jew” every time the name of Charlotteville’s Jewish mayor, Michael Signer, was mentioned.

And of course, the hostility was not confined to Jews: As targets, Jews were not even preeminent; blacks were. There were the “White lives matter” t-shirts. Marching along McIntire Road, the white supremacists shouted out the N-word at drivers passing by. More prominent than the Nazi flags were the Confederate flags and their variants.

The focus on Jews was anomalous: This was supposed to be about the Confederacy and southern heritage, and defenders of the Southern Cause are not always identified with hostility toward Jews. An hour’s drive away, in Richmond’s Hollywood Cemetery, a Confederate monument, there’s a carefully tended Jewish section.”

https://www.jta.org/2017/08/13/news-opinion/politics/hate-in-charlottesville-the-day-the-nazi-called-me-shlomo

Member

The issue, what brought out the white supremacists is not being discussed and debated.
Taking down Robert E. Lee’s statue is a serious issue.
Should the Italians take down the statue of Julius Caesar’s since he had slaves, AND he was a cruel general and emperor, who ordered the killing of innocent people, women, children, everybody by the millions?
Historical figures are just that, they lived in a different time, with a different set of values and a different set of views, behaved differently under different circumstances and requirements.
It is a grave mistake, to reevaluate them every 20-30 years as our value system changes because that can lead to grave violence.
By the way, if General William Tecumseh Sherman can be a hero than so can Robert E. Lee? Does anyone want to remove George Washington’s statue, for being a slave owner?
P.S. I seriously doubt, that there will be a proposal by anyone to rename Sherman Way or McArthur Park, or Washington Square in our city and many others!!!

Reality Check
Guest

That was not their issue. That was their cover for promoting their racist ideology. There were not chanting “keep the statue up” but rather “blood and soil”. There nazi’s and no middle ground with their vile kind.

There is no ethical universe in which you can call Lee a hero of any sort. Tear down all those confederate statues to bigotry.

Istvan
Guest

Well believe or not Gyula there are some activists in the African American community who might go as far a wanting to remove the Washington monument. See https://www.change.org/p/barack-obama-take-down-the-washington-monument but only a handful of people supported it.

General Lee is a much eaiser to dislike than Washington, because not only did he lead the armies of the rebel Confederacy he also led the US forces in crushing of John Brown’s attempted slave uprising at Harpers Ferry in 1859. See https://www.americancivilwar.com/authors/Joseph_Ryan/Articles/General-Lee-John-Brown-1859/General-Lee-John-Brown-1859.html Like the complexities and ironies of Hungarian history the history of the USA has a few of its own.

JLW
Guest

You are right that removing Confederate statues is a serious business. It’s a debate about whether it is better to leave statues and street names as a reminder of regrettable history to be explained to the next generation or to remove them because their very presence is honoring a person and acts we now find repulsive.

I strongly disagree with your analogy concerning Robert E. Lee. Leaving Lee’s statue is more like Hungarians letting a statue honoring Horthy stand for 150 years. I noticed how quickly the Hungarians removed the Russian statues and street names after the change in 1989. The move to remove Confederate statues is not so different from that except it has taken us over 100 years to realize how very offensive our shrines to the Confederacy are to African-Americans who make up a large percentage of the southern population.

George Washington lived in an entirely different era and freed his slave at his death. His life was not about protecting slave ownership as a way of life. The acts of Sherman and McArthur are not looked on as favorably as they once were during but they are still debated.

wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘Leaving Lee’s statue is more like Hungarians letting a statue honoring Horthy stand for 150 years.’

Magyarorszag and the ‘Old South’ appear to be on the same train track in their history. And as time marches on with history we can see how the present inevitably has the two societies confronting a long past where some of their held-fast ‘principles’ have now been resigned to the dust-bin. Yet there looks to be some who want to bring them back. It’s evident that those prickly in-the-way and time immemorial societal and behavioral ‘codes’ are just hard to let go of.

Taper
Guest

if these people had been ignored, there would have been no incident and likely the statue would have been eventually taken down. But far leftists descend on these meetings to start a fight and this is what happens.

Timár Elizabet
Guest

Those statues were erected long after the Confederates were defeated in the Civil War. Some, 100 years after, during the civil rights era in the 1960s.
Yes, President Washington held slaves, but he fought to BUILD our nation, not to tear it apart. After his wife died, he freed his slaves.
Some Southerners didn’t want to pay for the labor that made them rich and went to war to preserve their lavish lifestyle. See the difference?

old1956
Guest

Virus alert! I am ready to offer anti-viral therapy to anybody.

The anti-Trump/anti-American PR virus has been fine tuned and spread by the Kremlin for the past 70 years.

It is really advisable to put a direct blame on the champion of the worldwide incitements for most of our troubles, from Ukraine to Syria.

Who fuelled the actions of the past insane East German regime?

Was it the USA or the Andropovist Kremlin?

Let us blame the Kremlin for supporting all enemies of humanity, before we attack any Republican or Democrat leaders of America.

We can assume that even Trump and Gorka reject all talks and acts of these white supremacists?

Ferenc
Guest

“Let us blame the Kremlin for supporting all enemies of humanity”
Does this mean you agree with the suspicions that Vladimir P. is (more than) supporting Viktor O.?

Member
tappanch
Guest

Michael Signer, the mayor of Charlottesville:

“When you dance with the devil, the devil changes you. […] And I think they made a choice in that [Trump] campaign, a very regrettable one, to really go to people’s prejudices, to go to the gutter.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2017/08/13/look-at-the-campaign-he-ran-charlottesville-mayor-is-becoming-one-of-trumps-strongest-critics/#comments

Michael Kaplan
Guest

Istvan is correct, a fine essay. Sadly, the USA, home to waves of my family from Hungary, let alone my father from Ukraine etc. is in great danger. The problem is not the cowardly nazi marchers, but their chief enabler, Mr. Trump (and of course, Hungary is in danger as well from Mr. Orban).

Neither Trump nor Orban seem concerned about the forces they are encouraging. It is hard to believe what I am seeing at age 70. I don’t think we are about to see a fascist regime take power in either country, at least not now; however, I fear what I might have to say in one year, let alone short of one year.

Jean P.
Guest

” I don’t think we are about to see a fascist regime take power in either country…”

Open your eyes.

Michael Kaplan
Guest

Apparently, you forgot my qualification, “not now”. Not helpful to misuse terms such as “fascist”. Both Orban and Trump are dangerous, but not fascists. If so, we would not be writing today.

old1956
Guest

For your consideration:

The Hungarian regime is totally fascist.
Miklos Gimmes forecasted it in a Zurcher Zeitung article, in 2010. after interviewing Fidesz and Jobbik activists.

USA is not fascist. Trump is the best antifascist. He is fighting right and left wing extremism without bias.

exTor
Guest

I just about fell out of my chair when I heard Trump today [the 14th] condemn neonazis, the KKK, white supremacists, saying “Racism is evil.” He was under a lot of pressure. This will deflate the altists somewhat.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Observer
Guest

Michael K

You’re making the often and tragic mistake of not believing what’s happening to you, e.g. like your ancestors in the 1930s.

Not all dictatorships/fascists are equally brutal and they have their phases (bloody Franco charted the return to democracy 40 years later).

Orbán is an accidental fascist and so is his regime, which hasn’t matured yet. The oppression and intimidation is being ratcheted up all the time.

Ferenc
Guest

note: first try to include infograms in comment

xenophobia since the system change (in Hungary, 1992-2016)

!function(e,t,n,s){var i=”InfogramEmbeds”,o=e.getElementsByTagName(t),d=o[0],a=/^http:/.test(e.location)?”http:”:”https:”;if(/^/{2}/.test(s)&&(s=a+s),window[i]&&window[i].initialized)window[i].process&&window[i].process();else if(!e.getElementById(n)){var r=e.createElement(t);r.async=1,r.id=n,r.src=s,d.parentNode.insertBefore(r,d)}}(document,”script”,”infogram-async”,”//e.infogr.am/js/dist/embed-loader-min.js”);

red = against foreigners
blue = neutral to foreigners
green = friendly to foreigners

original: https://infogr.am/1a93e17e-42f3-4fb0-9c4d-c99ecfb3e6d9
full article (in Hungarian and incl.data used in post): http://index.hu/tudomany/2016/11/17/soha_nem_latott_merteku_az_idegenellenesseg_magyarorszagon/

Ferenc
Guest

so direct including in comments doesn’t work, seems to be an issue with WordPress (possible to overcome with some sort of plugin, but just don’t bother)
Interested in developments of xenophobia in Hungaria? Just check above links (unfortunately info with Hungarian texts only)

exTor
Guest

comment image

https://444.hu/2017/08/13/nemeth-szilard-levonta-a-charlottesvilles-i-neonaci-eroszak-tanulsagait-liberalfasizmus-sopor-vegig-a-vilagon

This piece references a comment made by one of Éva’s favoritest people, Szilárd Németh, the former mayor of Csepel [BP District XXI] and now the #2 man [alelnök] in Fidesz.

Németh basically blames liberals, whom he labels ‘libfascists’, for what happened in Charlottesville. He agrees with the “many sides” Trump comment equating/blaming both sides. Trump initially adlibbed his equation while reading from his prepared text, which used words like ‘egregious’, not normally a part of the Trump vocabulary.

Just kidding about Szilárd Németh, Éva. I dislike him as much as you do.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

It’s funny in a way that some people hate the idea of liberty so much that they try to compose new combinations – I’ve read libnazi, libturd, now libfascist …
Any other combinations you’ve seen?

Jean P.
Guest

Libresse (Excuse me. I couldn’t resist).

Aida
Guest

Just reverting to an earlier post on the PR cult of “looks do not matter and it is sexist to even to think it might”.

Look at the pic of charmer Szilard. You would need serious medical intervention if you could support a party symbolised or represented by such a monstrous looking oaf.

Observer
Guest

Kudos. Well said.

exTor
Guest

Suffixes like ‘tard’ and ‘turd’ are ready-made for affixing to any number of bases, eg: ‘cuck’, ‘fuck’, ‘lib’, etcetera. Anyone who has a more-than-passing awareness of what passes for online discourse is immediately aware of the inherent meanings of these ‘neonasts’ [new nasties].

I used ‘libfascist’ not (knowingly) having seen or having heard the word before. It does exist as two words [lib fascist] or hyphenated [lib-fascist]. My usage followed Németh’s ‘liberálfasizmus’.

Many Hungarian Spectrum readers are aware of my penchant for neologizing, which has made its way into my poetry and into some of my comments. Some newbies I’ve used are ‘bedumb’, ‘correctoid’ and ‘neologo’.

comment image

A recent creation that I have yet to use is ‘reptard’, as in ‘reptard blonde’, namely a skinny blonde spokesperson for the Republican Party. Such a person can be reptile-vile [eg: Ann Coulter] or just repugnant-servile [eg: Kellyanne Conway].

comment image

Conway always reminds me of the Wicked Witch of the West in Wizard of Oz. I may start referring to her as the Wicked Witch of the West Wing.

MAGYARKOZÓ

wrfree
Guest

And what a wing…😎
WWWW around the bubbling pot with the ‘weird sisters’….

1 WITCH. Thrice the brinded cat hath mew’d.
2 WITCH. Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin’d.
3 WITCH. Harpier cries:—’tis time! ’tis time!
1 WITCH. Round about the caldron go;
In the poison’d entrails throw.—
Toad, that under cold stone,
Days and nights has thirty-one;
Swelter’d venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i’ the charmed pot!
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble

Macbeth ..The Bard .. he knew about spooks and destinies…😎

petofi
Guest

The Wicked Witch looks far better than Conway…

petofi
Guest

I wonder: if Szilard debated Botka, could people tell who was who?

Ferenc
Guest

Just saw a small item on TV, and guess what with some facepainting NSz is able to play this one:comment image
The Last (or Former) King of Chepel…

PS: don’t know if he has some experience with crocodile wrestling…

Ferenc
Guest

PS: have a copy of the film, like to watch it again, but at the same time it gives me the creeps thinking about watching it…
Curious about opinions here about the film: The Last King of Scotland

Member

Excellent article as ever. For me, the comparison with Hungary goes beyond Mr. Gorka, a man I once met and who is properly scary – he is a sort of evil chameleon capable of being a nationalist for any nation. But the comparison is about this lazy, utterly disingenuous but (for some) very convenient picturing of protestors and counter-protestors as just being equivalent. In Hungary it was and is ideal for government media to refer to liberal intellectuals protesting about things as the far left – it gives them shady overtones but just as usefully it makes the far right seem just another tame little thorn in their side.

Aida
Guest

Gorka, oh dear. It makes one proud to be a Hungarian?

exTor
Guest

I am curious about your solo interaction with Gorka, DR Evans. Please tell us when and where you had met him and what (if you can recall) were your immediate impressions of Gorka. I love your description that Gorka is the “sort of evil chameleon capable of being a nationalist for any nation”.

There is something seriously psychologically wrong with Sebastian Gorka, who manifests a highly obvious inferiority complex, not unlike that of Donald Trump. Each IC is a paradox, for each inferiority complex’s possessor seemingly has a lot going for him.

comment image

Amongst the manifestation’s of Gorka’s IC is his need to build himself up with (perhaps ironically) a lowercase vee, thereby identifying himself with the Vitézi Rend; his need to wear VR medals, as he did during the Trump inauguration; his need to append Dr. to his name, thereby conferring upon himself (in his own mind, at least) the appearance of bonafide learnèdness.

MAGYARKOZÓ

petofi
Guest

In the picture…I’m willing to wager that Gorka (the cucumber) had something to do with the angle of the camera so that he would appear larger than the black man to his left–

exTor
Guest

comment image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5S_GiI7DVk

Have a look at this video, petőfi. You’ll get the picture. Gorka is so much bigger than the guy to his left.

MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest

Not necessarily, petőfi. Gorka, who is a tall man, didn’t have to do anything. He’s about my height, which is about Trump’s height: 6-foot-2, give or take. Know that Trump has shrunk –physically, we wont talk mentally– a lot and he was never the 6-foot-3 he put on his driver’s licence, just as I was never the 188 centimeters I put on mine. Actually, I was a sliver under 187.

Gorka’s chair may be higher than that of the other, though I doubt it; more likely he is naturally taller. Even if Gorka were somewhat shorter, the optics of the shot would make Gorka appear to be taller because the camera is closer to Gorka. It’s a natural thing.

MAGYARKOZÓ

AlexN
Guest

Like him or not, if he earned a Dr. title he is entitled to use it the same as anyone else.

Observer
Guest

Gorka is more or less a fraud, a knowledgeable con artist picking and twisting the facts to fit his precenceptions. Also typical Hungarian from the nationalistic irredentists mold – the Bocskayi garb, the whatever medals, the connections with the H reactionaries, even the accent (raised in Britain?!).

These Hungarians are such wannabes that it pains.

Observer
Guest

And Tnx for the Rolling Stone devastating article which elaborates on these points.

Guest

Yes, and I’ve been wondering why they published this …

In my mind Rolling Stone always was just a rock music magazine – nice of them to see the broader picture!

wrfree
Guest
You can tell we now have a tiger tail when Michael Hill, president of the League of the South, a far- right Southern nationalist group , posted a message on FB which advocates secession from the United States, said, ‘Fight or die white man’. The website notes it is ‘waging a war to win the hearts and minds of the Southern people’. The win would then be a place ‘where we and our progeny can enjoy Christian liberty and the fruits of our own labor unhindered by parasitical ‘out groups’. From this and the events at Charlottesville it looks as if its the powder keg that will blasts things off. The bucolic University of Virginia stands tall there within its beautuful campus while Jefferson is down and buried at Monticello. Ironic that in his grave the great revolutionary needs to hear the calls of hate ramping up the continuation of one we had in the middle 19th. Now he won’t rest in peace. Nor will the US perhaps as with the POTUS we have who with some of the ‘advisors’ we know who are cagey when putting their cards down on the political table with ‘white nationalism’ and the land… Read more »
Istvan
Guest
For Eva’s readers who are interested in the Confederate legacy in the USA, I would recommend reading a book titled “Confederates in the Attic: Dispatches from the Unfinished Civil War (Vintage Departures)” written by Tony Horwitz. I would characterize the nostalgic racism of many legacy supporters of the Confederacy as rather sick, but for the most part officers in the US Army I knew and still know who were raised in that culture did not exhibit it in the context of their service. The great African American opponent of slavery Frederick Douglass wrote, “Once you put upon the Black man brass that says ‘U.S.’ … make him a soldier of the nation … then no power on earth could deny him ever the full rights of citizenship.” That may have not turned out to be fully true during his life time or since in larger society, but by the time I entered the service towards the end of the Vietnam war there was greater racial equality in the Army than in society by far. As far as General Sherman goes who was mentioned in the discussion, he did what had to be done in his march to the sea to… Read more »
Istvan
Guest
On the blood on Lee’s hands. It also needs to be understood in relationship to General Lee that he allowed troops under his direct command to execute captured black union soldiers at the battle of the Crater, on the Petersburg front on July 30, 1864. He also documented that Black US Army soldiers captured would be not be considered for exchange for white Confederate prisoners held by the union army. Lee wrote to General Grant on October 1 1864: “with a view of alleviating the sufferings of our soldiers,” he proposed an exchange of prisoners to the two armies operating in Virginia, “man for man … upon the basis established by the [prior] cartel.” Grant immediately inquired about the status of black United States troops. “Before further negotiations are had upon the subject I would ask if you propose delivering these men the same as white soldiers?” Lee responded that “I intended to include all captured soldiers of the United States of whatever nation or color. Deserters from our service and negroes belonging to our citizens are not considered subjects of exchange.” Grant would not accept this, and he told Lee that the United States government “is bound to secure… Read more »
Guest

Thanks, Istvan, for describing this horrible aspect of those “Southern gentlemen” as they often are depicted!
Now I better understand the darkness behind e g the movie “Django Unchained” which I admired butthought a bit over the top at the time.

wrfree
Guest

Today all that sure kind of puts Southern ‘gentility’ and ‘honor’ on its head.

Guest
“Orbán …… can rarely be caught saying something truly inappropriate or something that could be interpreted as a racial slur or as anti-Semitic…….he uttered sentences that were ambiguous…” That is true of Orbán’s present style, but it has not always been so. What is ambiguous, for instance, about Orbán uttering, as far back as 1989, that he wished his buddies “egy Zsidó-mentes jó éljszakát!” (I wish you all a Jew-free goodnight! Quoted verbatim when he was a guest of Soros in New York at the start of his political career. But to interpret this as a purely racist remark is incorrect despite its lack of ambiguity. Orbán is not antisemitic, not a racist, not left-wing, not right-wing, not a Christian, not genuinely anti-Muslim. He is nothing – a man of no principles or convictions of any sort and is, as Éva says, just “devilishly clever”, interested in one thing only – to have complete power over all of Hungary and Hungarians. And in the traditional style of all despots, this includes punishing those who do not adore him. As a certifiable psychopath the only thing which prevents the men in white coats from locking him up is the clever little… Read more »
Jon Van Til
Guest

It might be useful to recall that, whatever his failings, Viktor Orban is a reasonably intelligent person, and quite definitely a skilled politician. Donald Trump, on the other hand, is an extraordinarily ignorant man (in the sense of ignoring what he does not know), and is as well a rank amateur as a politician.

Orban knows how to secure his base, but has also learned that there are costs to provoking societal hatred and violence in the broader society he is elected to serve. Trump, on the other hand, blithely serves as a catalyst for the destruction of social civility and the provocation of destructive violence in his society, and probably much of the world as well.

It may be best for all concerned (including himself) for Trump to be removed as soon as possible, but if one wishes for him some level of Hungarian inspiration—it seems clear to me that it would be better for him to learn (assuming the ability to do so) from the acts of an Orban than the words of a Gorka.

wrfree
Guest

JVT..

Impeachment it is eh? And with nukes coming out of the sky?? Gorka then will be looking into ‘succession’ issues..😎

Birthright
Guest
It is tragic. It should never happen. Many other cases should have never happen, but they did, and I am afraid we haven’t seen the last one yet. Intolerance and hatred does not exists in vacuum, it always have something to bring it to life. Racial issues are springing up from real or presumed injustice, and magnified by bias treatments too. Look at the video and see how one side is suppressed by the other and the moderator slaps the one that’s interview was grossly over shouted by a huge mouth opposing guest of the show. Btw “shot up” is a mild expression used even by CNN’s guests and not an outrages one by American standards. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/videos/panelist-to-sanders-shut-up-in-fiery-debate/vi-AAq43Dq Similar thing happened to me when Mrs. Balogh wrote to me “ … I don’t like people calling others ignorant (which I did not use), especially when they don’t know the first thing about the individual they call uninformed.” but was and is continuously tolerant of Wolfi7777’s rude remarks. Is that because he is an unfettered supporter of extreme views expressed here? No fair opinion is valued for the sake of open and equalized debates? http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/08/10/extradition-of-yerzhan-kadesov-to-kazakhstan-with-hungarian-assistance/#comment-136734 While Wolfi7777 got away with: Direct quote… Read more »
Guest

@Birthright (the name gives you away already …):
If you can’t stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen!

Anyway you should have read Eva’s original article and the links there to try to understand what really happened – and the following reaction by those fascist Fidesznik mayors!
Just try again!
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/08/09/hungarian-politicians-and-migration-aids-migrant-resorts/#comment-136657

PS:
Maybe Western Europe should have treated Hungarian refugees in 1945, 1956 and 1989 similarly to what Fidesz is now doing?
And maybe it was a mistake to let Hungarians invade Europe a thousand years ago?
Think about that!

Birthright
Guest

wolfi7777
I am sorry but I lost my interest in engaging you any more.
My suggestion is to try to find you space in your universe with is not the same as mine and from now on please do not reply to my comments and in return I will also stay clear from yours. This is the best way to keep the respect for the blog owner intact.
Thank you for your understanding.

exTor
Guest
Why are you getting bent-out-of-shape over this guy, wolfi? His English is basically understandable, although (at least at the beginning) it’s difficult to pin him down to an opinion because he mostly speaks in generalities. In most instances there is no need to adhominem other posters, especially now that Éva is culling the bad actors. I’m not aware of the history between you two, except that Birthright feels aggrieved at your treatment of him. Okay Birthright, counterprotests are expressions of free speech. That’s the way it should be in Hungary and that’s the way it should be in the US. There have been instances in the States were a speaker was denied the chance to speak. This occurred at Berkeley, California February 1st when activists [SJW: social justice warriors] protested against the presence of altist Milo Yiannopoulos, ex of Breitbart. I dont like what he stands for, but I would have let him speak. Yiannopoulos is basically a rightwing provocateur, a political troll. Had I been in Charlottesville last weekend, I would have tried to shut down the fascists, which includes neonazis, white supremacists and the KKK. I dont give them the right to free speech. Those groups are action… Read more »
Birthright
Guest
extort My Friend, let me thank you for standing up for me but it is not needed. I do not intend to turn this wonderful blog into personal battle-field with anybody. I know when to break away from a fight without delivering a killer blow. I believe that everybody reading my comments did or should come to the realization that I am a polite person with views that sometimes deviates from the main direction of this blog but I express it in an amicable manner and open for intelligent discussion. This might be difficult for others and the only way to avoid confrontation is to disengage. So be it. As far as your reply to my question about the need for counter demonstration I respectfully disagree with you for one simple reason. Without such none of the events would hit the news whether white supremacy group or black life matter organized. As soon as the other side shows up, hell gets loose for no good reason and results in injuries, arrests, and unfortunately in deaths too. Is mission accomplished with such aggression? You said that “counterprotests are expressions of free speech” but if it limits the same right of the… Read more »
Birthright
Guest

Ooops … neither my Word nor the underlying spell checker here like your pseudo … one of them changed it without asking me. Sorry exTor.

gdfxx
Guest
ExTor, I have no idea where you live, but if you live in the U.S.A., you should know that freedom of speech applies to ALL speech, unless it calls for violence. Especially to hate speech, because why would anyone object to love speech? The fact that Nazis killed people in the past, that KKK members lynched people in the past does not necessarily mean, that the neo-Nazis openly advocate killing people today, or that today’s KKK openly wants to lynch people. And unless they advocate such things, in the U.S. they have the right to express their hate, whether you or I like it or not. They also obtained (through a court fight) the legal right to demonstrate where they did. I haven’t heard anything about the permit of the counter-demonstrators. Did they have one? Finally, I would like to refer to yesterday’s demolition of a Confederate soldier’s statue in Durham, North Carolina. I watched the film of that action and was sick to my stomach. Is this what the anti-Nazi movement is? This primitive dancing around a statue? This spitting and kicking of a statue? By members of Workers World Party, a communist party in the US? Is this… Read more »
exTor
Guest
After 6 decades in Canada, I now live in Csepel, Budapest District XXI. I am far to the left on most issues. You are too soft on neonazis and the KKK, which makes me believe that you are somewhere to the right of midfield. You’re a fool if you think that neonazis, the ideological continuators of real Nazis, would not want to kill Jews and others if they had the power, NWS any current words to countereffect. You are equally a fool to think that the KKK would not like to return to the lynchings of a century ago. The logical extension of hate speech is hate action. Witness the murder of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville, Virginia. Witness the vile 1998 murder in Jasper, Texas of James Byrd by 3 white supremacists, who dragged him for 3 miles chained to a pickup truck until his right arm and head were severed from his body. I understand that ‘freedom of speech’ allows hate talk. I would oppose [demonstrate against] those wanting to spew their bile in public. Who cares if the Charlottesville counterdemonstrators didn’t have a permit. Firstly, they dont need one to protest. The white supremacists were the ones rallying,… Read more »
gdfxx
Guest

Whatever MAGYARKOZÓ means,

I guess we have to agree to disagree. Many members of my family were exterminated by Nazis so I think I know a little more about the topic than you. Let’s leave it at that.

Observer
Guest

Love it when little fascists after having suppressed, gutted out or eliminated democratic institutions and free media at home go to a democratic country/place/blog here and start complaining about infringement of their rights and clamor for democracy, tolerance …
What a gall, but these Hungarians after all, somebody else’s at fault, remember?

Birthright
Guest

Observer
I am nor sure whether your comment is a reply to my original posting starting with “It is tragic.” as the nestling slightly confusing without naming the original poster.
Would you be kind to clarify it for my peace of mind pls.

Birthright
Guest

Observer
I am nor sure whether your comment is a reply to my original posting starting with “It is tragic.” as the nestling slightly confusing without naming the original poster.
Would you be kind to clarify it for my peace of mind pls.

Birthright
Guest

Observer
I am not sure whether your comment is a reply to my original posting starting with “It is tragic.” as the nestling slightly confusing without naming the original poster.
Would you be kind to clarify it for my peace of mind pls. Tx.

Observer
Guest

Put your mind at rest – yes, my comment refers to your and all complains of this kind.

Birthright
Guest

Observer
Such a relief. I was concerned for awhile that you knew the person you assigned the “fascist” adjective to having some information about or even knowing him/her..

This way it is somewhat different. It seems to me that you are one of the few mindless agitators whom are here to bring the intelligence level of this respected blog to an “empty mind overflow garbage dump”.

Great job which I am sure Mrs. Balogh will sooner or later reward with expulsion. Much better brains were thrown out of this site than yours.

Ferenc
Guest

“Much better brains were thrown out of this site than yours.”
So you have to be familiar with “the brains thrown out of this site” (and also Observer’s)!
Willing to clarify your “other brains” knowledge?

Guest

Ferenc, please don’t take this one trick donkey for real!
It’s another try by some “alt right” – a silly strategy which might work in their circles:
Telling Eva she’s the greatest but her correspondents are stupid.
Of course no one here will fall for this “birthright” nonsense …
PS:
This creature reminds me of the kings and queens of the middle ages who said that their kingdoms were “god given” birthrights …
Funny in a way but it’ll soon leave like the others – or get aggressive and then Eva will take care of it!

Birthright
Guest

Ferenc
You got me on this one. Not by being wrong but I did not take note of name(s). I remember one nice and intelligent person from Germany whose English wasn’t in par with this site so asked for and received permission to write in Hungarian. He was insulted and left with unjust scars from someone not worthy to be mentioned. A “dead brainer”.

Ferenc
Guest

Well I’m following this site since 2016.Oct, yes since the referendum and just before the closing of a newspaper, and I don’t recall what you described, possible to have missed that.
Nevertheless you are “being wrong” in your original comment about “much better brains were thrown out” (plural) and now come up with only one (!) very vague example of somebody voluntarily leaving(!).

Birthright
Guest

Sorry Ferenc but it would be a painstaking job to go back in time but at this point I just ask you to accept my comment. It has merit I can assure you.

Ferenc
Guest

Might be for yourself, but unfortunately no merit for me

Birthright
Guest

Too bad. Pass.

exTor
Guest

comment image

https://www.youtube.com/embed/398HJb0_PFg … FULL FRONTAL

I absolutely love Samantha Bee, who is from Toronto. She’s married and residing in New York City. Those who haven’t yet seen her evisceration of Sebastian Gorka [above] should check it out. I’ve viewed it a whole bunch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJ-XxBxboc … AM JOY … MSNKBC

A just-out MSNBC piece [AM Joy] also takes Gorka apart. One of the interviewees, questioning Gorka’s academic credentials, says that Gorka “had the eqivalent of a mail-in degree from a third-rate university in Budapest.” I think that may have been somewhat uncalled-for, even though Corvinus did issue a somewhat suspect PhD to the good Dr.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Ferenc
Guest

Thanks for the MSNBC piece!
Just a short comparison: Gorka to djT like Bayer&Nemeth to OV!

Ferenc
Guest

Anybody here knows more about the Gorka’s claim in the video:
“series of alledged hate crimes, which turned out to be propagated by the left… ‘fake hate crimes’ in the last six months with some regularity”

Ferenc
Guest

OT – Egyenesen interviews
Two very good, inspiring and hope giving interviews today evening at HirTV Egyenesen:
*with Beer Miklós, the bisshop of Vac – http://hirtv.hu/egyenesen/konnyitett-kereszt-1401369
*with Róna Péter, professor at Oxford in economics – http://hirtv.hu/egyenesen/szalmaszal-1401370
Taken together they paint a real (devastating) picture about the current situation in Hungary, but also show a way out of this unbearable madness.
Highly recommended to watch, unfortunately in Hungarian only (may be anybody here interested to make subtitles for these?).
Curious about opinions about these interviews.

PS: Remember first time I saw an interview with Rona Peter was in the Dec/Jan (also on HirTV), and it was very very good. So when some time later (Feb/Mar?) I thought he would give another interview, this time on ATV, I was looking forward watching it. But I was wrong, it appeared to be Bakondi Gy.speaking about the Hungarian treatment of refugees/migrants. I was horrified hearing ‘m blubbering out his spew, and only one definition for this ‘man’ came to my mind: What a Piece of Shit! So that’s why I’ll always will refer to ‘m as Mr.PoC!!

exTor
Guest

I had sent this at 2:30 PM [EDT]. It had been accepted and put on moderation, however it seems it got stuck in limbo, so I resent it.

comment image

https://www.youtube.com/embed/398HJb0_PFg … FULL FRONTAL

I absolutely love Samantha Bee, who is from Toronto. She’s married and residing in New York City. Those who haven’t yet seen her evisceration of Sebastian Gorka [above] should check it out. I’ve viewed it a whole bunch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJ-XxBxboc … AM JOY … MSNBC

A just-out MSNBC piece [AM Joy] also takes Gorka apart. One of the interviewees, questioning Gorka’s academic credentials, says that Gorka “had the eqivalent of a mail-in degree from a third-rate university in Budapest.” I think that may have been somewhat uncalled-for, even though Corvinus did issue a somewhat suspect PhD to the good Dr.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Taper
Guest

Europeans are a distinct group. What’s your problem with that?

gdfxx
Guest
I would like to add a couple of things. First, Trump did disavow David Duke, later than everyone asked him to do, as did disavow the Nazis and KKK and others at the weekend demonstration: http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/03/politics/donald-trump-disavows-david-duke-kkk/index.html Second, those who know me know that I do not sympathize with the ideas of Nazis and such. However, unless it is codified otherwise, the Constitution of the U.S. allows everyone to express any idea, including hate speech. This includes Nazis, racists etc. unless they incite to violence. I clearly remember the incident of some decades ago, when Nazis wanted to march in Skokie, IL in a neighborhood inhabited by Holocaust survivors. They succeeded because the ACLU stood up for their right to free speech. Same thing happened last weekend. The city government refused the Nazis the permit to demonstrate and the ACLU took it to court and a judge forced them to allow it. From what I hear and see, the violence between the Nazis and the counter-demonstrators was from both sides. Based on what I saw in Portland, Oregon when a similar demonstration ended also in violence, I do not exclude at all that the so called Antifa group of masked anarchists… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

Here’s a “Guide to the Violence in Charlottesville”
2017.Aug.13, New York Times, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-virginia-overview.html
“Based on what I saw in Portland, Oregon when a similar demonstration ended also in violence, I do not exclude at all that the so called Antifa group of masked anarchists started the violence.”
The video in the above item doesn’t make clear which group started violence.
So my questions to you is: which group shows most respectlessness for the other, which group shows most aggression (before any violence starts), which group mostly displays weapons (which were luckily not used, but I fear for the future…)?

PS: watched the InfoWars video Eva posted in her comment, amazed about hearing George Soros mentioned and blamed a few times!
Is this usual or new ‘there’? Who picked up that from who, may be OV&Co from alt.right&Co, or the other way around…?

gdfxx
Guest

I do not watch Inforwars and such. What I saw in Portland and some other places (one of the universities) was that the so called antifa initiated the violence. I don’t care who shows more respectlessness for the other, again: in the US this is protected by the Constitution and it should not result in those shown respectlessness to beat up the showers.

Ferenc
Guest

tweet by @OmanReagan
1947 anti-fascist video made by US military to teach citizens how to avoid falling for people like Trump is relevant again.
https://twitter.com/OmanReagan/status/896563796071731201

PS1: there’s even a Hungarian connection in it!!
PS2: could/should also be used for ‘avoid falling for people like OV’

Ferenc
Guest

Here’s the whole film “Don’t Be a Sucker” (1947, U.S. War Department)
Topics: Prejudice, Cold War, Racism
https://archive.org/details/DontBeaS1947

wrfree
Guest

Thanks for posting. If we think about it the great tag line is for all time.I got that one way back. Kept things on the up and up. It’s amazing what a son could learn from those who ‘migrate’ to a ‘new world’.

Guest

Some background info on the happenings in Charlottesville and the people involved from my favourite debunking site:
http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/14/daily-caller-removes-jason-kesslers-byline-from-site/

Ferenc
Guest

From the same site:
“photograph purportedly showing an Antifa member hitting a police officer has been digitally manipulated”
http://www.snopes.com/antifa-member-photographed-beating-police-officer/
Photograph tried to be used as “evidence” of Antifa violence against police (2017.Aug.14), appears manipulated picture originally made in 2009 in Athens, Greece, during riots!
Oh boy, what some people do to get proof in support of their opinion…

exTor
Guest

comment image

This is scary shit. This is the white-supremacist private militia. Racists with rifles. Things could have gotten ugly. This is a clear provocation. The counterdemonstrators were not armed.

According to gdfxx [7:20 PM] “violence occurred from both sides”, quoting the Charlottesville police department, thereby establishing (in the mind of gdfxx) an equivalence between the haters [white supremacists, neonazis, the KKK] and those who opposed the haters.

That is the same bullshit that Trump tried to pull with his “many sides” comment, which he softened a couple of days later, which he tried to resurrect later still. Read the New York Times article, which details how Trump’s repositioning of himself boosts white supremacists.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-charlottesville-white-nationalists.html

MAGYARKOZÓ

gdfxx
Guest

Magyarkozo, no I am not establishing a moral equivalence between Nazis and those opposed to them. I am saying that in the US everyone has the right to free speech, even Nazis. Beating up someone because you disagree or hate or despise their speech is not acceptable to me. I am not basing my opinion on what this or that website describes. I am basing it on what I saw. And yes, violence did occur from both sides, even if Trump says it. Occasionally even he may be right.

I have no clue who those armed people are, but I did not hear about one shot being fired during the melee.

Finally, even with the risk of repeating myself: in Hungary, the Nazi speech was suppressed for many decades. As soon as the free speech was restored, not only the speech but the movement revived, quite strongly. This is what suppression gets you. And if you try to get them by beating them, remember: they won those fights in the past.

In the US they are a minuscule minority, now. But martyrs attract followers…

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