Moving to the center? Anne Applebaum’s essay on Viktor Orbán and Donald Trump

This morning I encountered Anne Applebaum’s name on the “Reggeli gyors” (Morning express) program on KlubRádió, on several Hungarian internet news sites, and in a Hungarian-language summary of foreign news related to Hungary that I receive daily. Anne Applebaum is an American journalist and Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has written several books on the Soviet Union and on Eastern Europe. She knows the region of East-Central Europe well, having spent several years in Poland while working as a correspondent for multiple British publications.

As a student of East-Central Europe, she is well acquainted with Hungary’s history and follows its current political events. She often writes about Hungarian affairs, so her name appears frequently in the Hungarian media. Every time an article of hers is published in The Washington Post, this or that Hungarian newspaper or internet site will report on its content. Hungarian journalists even follow her tweets.

As for her opinion of Viktor Orbán and his regime, it is devastating. This was not always the case. In 2010 she received the Petőfi Prize for her 2003 book on the Gulag, which was translated into Hungarian (as was her 2012 book Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe, 1944-1956). The Petőfi Prize was established by the Public Foundation for the Research of Central and East European History and Society, which is a Fidesz-sponsored foundation. The prize was bestowed on her by Mária Schmidt, whom I call Viktor Orbán’s court historian.

Anne Applebaum (2015) Source: Václav Havel Library

If Anne Applebaum had any hopes for the Fidesz government in 2010, they evaporated soon after. She has written many harsh words on Hungarian domestic and foreign policy as well as on the government’s treatment of refugees. But this is not what I want to talk about here. Anyone who is interested in Anne Applebaum’s political opinions should visit her website, which offers an extensive collection of her writings over the years. Here I will focus on her latest article, “Beware: Trump may use the alt-right to turn himself into the center,” which appeared last night in The Washington Post, because it has a great deal to do with Hungary.

The article is about Donald Trump’s bigotry, which he has used as “an electoral tool, to excite a relatively small group of supporters.” He was successful mainly because the rest of his voters, mainstream Republicans, overlooked his tactics in their eagerness to win the election. Applebaum’s question is whether Trump will further manipulate racism “for political ends.” If he does and proves to be successful, the alt-right will gain strength, which might result in a level of violence that could offer Trump the opportunity to “present himself as the candidate of law and order.” In addition, “by encouraging the alt-right, Trump can also change our definition of what it means to be a moderate or a centrist.”

It is at this point that Anne Applebaum brings up the comparison with Hungary, where “the center-right ruling party, Fidesz, turned a neo-fascist alt-right party, Jobbik, into an electoral asset” and where Viktor Orbán can portray himself and his party as a centrist party that alone can save the country from extremism. A couple of years ago Fidesz used Jobbik very much as Anne Applebaum describes it, but I don’t believe this formula applies today.

In Hungary there are three main political forces: the left-liberals, Jobbik, and Fidesz. After 2006 the left-liberal group lost a great deal of its appeal, and at roughly the same time Jobbik, representing the extreme right, became an important political party. It was in this political climate that Viktor Orbán portrayed himself as the head of a right-of-center party that would save Hungary and Europe from the curse of a government of Gábor Vona, the leader of a racist, anti-Semitic party, which proudly declared itself to be an enemy of democracy.

But, as Anne Applebaum correctly points out, as time went by Fidesz, in order to maintain its support, took over more and more of Jobbik’s program. Applebaum says in this article that “Fidesz borrowed some of Jobbik’s ideas and language.” I think she is too kind. It wasn’t borrowing. It was a wholesale adoption of Jobbik’s program. From day one the Orbán government began fulfilling all of the important nationalistic demands of Jobbik, until the two parties and their constituents were barely distinguishable.

As the result of Fidesz’s rapid move to the right, it became increasingly difficult to maintain the myth of Fidesz as a central force, balancing between the “communists” and the “Nazis.” If Anne Applebaum had written this piece a few years ago, I would have fully agreed with her, but today I believe the picture needs to be refined.

As Fidesz was moving to the far right, becoming a nationalistic party with racist, anti-Semitic undertones, Gábor Vona of Jobbik realized that the political territory his party once occupied was being usurped. He decided to move his party more toward the center, with some success. Thus, the myth that the Fidesz government guarantees law and order in the face of a physically dangerous extreme right has collapsed. Today there is no longer a serious threat of extremists, akin to the alt-right extremists we saw demonstrating in Charlottesville, using deadly force in Hungary.

So, let’s go back to the United States and the “centrist” scenario Anne Applebaum foresees as a possibility. Viktor Orbán is a shrewd, intelligent politician, which we can’t say about Donald Trump. Such sophisticated thinking is, to my mind, unimaginable from Trump. I also believe that both his temperament and his deep-seated political views incline him toward extremism. I cannot picture him as a centrist in any guise, promising calm and the rule of law. He thrives on conflict and discord.

Before the 2010 Hungarians election I said in a lecture that “one doesn’t know where Jobbik ends and where Fidesz begins.” Today I am convinced that the same can be said about Donald Trump and the alt-right in all of its variations.

August 18, 2017
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Mrozek
Guest

Excellent piece. Just wanted to add that she is the wife of Radoslaw Sikorski Polish ex-foreign minister in the Tusk cabinet and had to endure below-the-belt abuse form the right-wing Polish media for being an American and Jewish. She had close relations with the Orbán Government and received 10,000 Euros with the Petőfi Prize. Now in her essay she is critical of Gerhard Schroeder for taking Russian oil money.. it made me smile.

Guest

Schröder is a “good” example of what can go wrong in politics – I never liked him in his days as German chancellor, found him lacking in some human qualities. But to see what he turned into after he was thrown out by his party – that really creeps me out!
To think that he called himself a Social Democrat once!

PS:
His relationships with his women might have been an early indicator that something was terribly wrong with him …

Roderick Beck
Guest

But his economic reforms were a success. Social democratic policies often (not always) harm the economy.

Ferenc
Guest

Another interesting article by Anne Applebaum:
“In Poland, a preview of what Trump could do to America” – 2016.Sep.19, https://www.anneapplebaum.com/2016/09/19/in-poland-a-preview-of-what-trump-could-do-to-america/
Displaying a lot about Polish matters and potential policies by djT (if he’ll be PotUS, written 1.5 month before election!) and ending with:
“It all sounds unthinkable, of course. But….”

wrfree
Guest
Re: Trump thriving on ‘conflict and discord’ It would appear to be so thus constructing a White House where by dint of power and position he makes himself to always be staking the claim to be the final arbiter in the affairs of state as the storm rages about him. There is absolutely no ‘collegiality’ in this POTUS’ decision making. If he ‘feels’ it well that’s it. Others tell their stories walking. At this point the extreme right fringe do not seem to have any semblance of traction in the nation’s electorate. It beggars belief that it can be a bona fide political party that can take in broad swaths of the electorate. Right now it looks like a gang of hoods talking loud and tough though POTUS in all his wisdom apparently sees something ‘useful’ in them. But we should be wary as he , the political boxer, seems to like that pugilistic spirit. It revs him up. Now that Bannon has left the White House perhaps that will be the bellwether towards Applebaum’s prognosis. It will be interesting to see how POTUS proceeds on his views and relationship to the far right as a result of tapping into… Read more »
Roderick Beck
Guest

I have no understanding of why people think the US is in the same category as Poland and Hungary. The fact that is Trump got lucky in being elected President. Nor have US political institutions collapsed in the spectacular fashion that happened in Hungary.

wrfree
Guest

That would appear the observation on US institutions so far not in the stage of ‘collapse’. But I’ll slip in Weimar here. Papen with others saw Hitler as leader in a utilitarian function where he was the ‘hired’ hand.

But Hitler got the jump by recognizing the ‘les invisibles et les oublies’. Fill in the blanks. And the ‘institutions’ then like German dominoes disappeared like pfffttt. Predicting events is like Lotto ‘hey you never know!’ and sometimes the surprise isn’t what’s expected.

Roderick Beck
Guest

It just sounds like more Hungarian pessimism. Trump is extremely unpopular, has been rebuked and checked by the courts, and has been unable to pass any major legislation.

petofi
Guest

News from the WH ‘deep throat’: Gorca the uborka is next to be sliced and diced out of the White House…

Ferenc
Guest

OK, we’ll see what will happen.
BUT what about your yesterday’s comment and the replies to it. Have you checked that?
http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/08/17/life-in-the-hungarian-transit-zones/#comment-137002

Istvan
Guest
Anne Applebaum will see the removal of Bannon today as vindication for her position. She is over intellectualizing the situation, Trump is all over the place politically. Essentially it is the politics of his own mental illness, probably some form of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Recent research has identified a structural abnormality in the brains of those with narcissistic personality disorder, specifically noting less volume of gray matter in the left anterior insula. Another study has associated the condition with reduced gray matter in the prefrontal cortex. The brain regions identified in these studies are associated with empathy, compassion, emotional regulation, and cognitive functioning. On top of this disorder my guess is he has some issues related to anger possibly intermingled with aging and mental diseases associated with that process. The reason this has not been discussed in the press is the American Psychological Association passed a formal resolution against any members making public clinical observations and statements related to the President of the USA after the Nixon administration. We are in real trouble with this President, and he is not crazy like a fox, he is just crazy. Possibly at some point soon Bannon will “out” Trump’s mental health… Read more »
wrfree
Guest

Istvan….Perhaps you can help me, us here. Did you ever think that the events seen at Charlottesville that were ever so brazen could occur here years on from the ‘founding?’ But more to the point where the rancid speech had its promulgation as an outgrowth of PRESIDENTIAL policy? It is almost as if the executive and and commander-in-chief of this country has betrayed the principles of these United States. I am quite a bit dumbfounded. Perhaps Congress is slowly getting there. They just might have difficult work to do with this king of chaos.

Istvan
Guest
Yes, WrFree there is a deep traditionalist culture in the USA around the Confederacy, it’s a fantasy culture promoted in fact by Jefferson Davis in his memoirs, which are massive and rambling. The book of essays titled The Myth of the Lost Cause, edited by Gary Gallagher and Alan Nolan captures this culture and its origins very well, it reduces the Civil War to a state’s rights debate. Which is where, many retired southern US Army officers I know want that discussion to stay, and want it to avoid slavery. The Hungarian analogy is Geza Gardonyi’s “Eclipse of the Crescent Moon” version of the Ottoman occupation vs serious historical analysis of it, which Eva has referenced over the years. Maybe even the revionist history of Horthy being promoted is yet another analogy. The Charlottesville protest was not a fusion of the traditionalists and fascists, but a fusion of poor whites with fascists whose ancestors may have been dragged into the Confederacy, but likely owned no slaves at all, because they were simply too expensive for them. They were functioning on the margins of the slave economy, the bulk of Confederate soldiers came from that background. We even had some from… Read more »
Istvan
Guest
By the way within the last few days a major traditionalist organization issued this statement: Reaffirmation of the Objectives of the United Daughters of the Confederacy® WHEREAS, The United Daughters of the Confederacy is a tax-exempt, non-profit Organization whose objectives are Historical, Benevolent, Educational, Memorial and Patriotic; AND WHEREAS, The United Daughters of the Confederacy® is an Organization dedicated to the purpose of honoring the memory of its Confederate ancestors; protecting, preserving and marking the places made historic by Confederate valor; collecting and preserving the material for a truthful history of the War Between the States; recording the participation of Southern women in their patient endurance of hardship and patriotic devotion during and after the War Between the States; fulfilling the sacred duty of benevolence toward the survivors and those dependent upon them; assisting descendants of worthy Confederates in securing a proper education; honoring the service of veterans from all wars as well as active duty military personnel and cherishing the ties of friendship among the members of the organization, AND WHEREAS, The United Daughters of the Confederacy® is a patriotic Organization which honors and upholds the United States of America and respects its Flag, AND WHEREAS, The United Daughters… Read more »
wrfree
Guest
Thanks Istvan on the exposition of what is called ‘The War of Southern Independence’ (not ‘Civil War’) where slavery as a position is almost ‘thrown under the bus’ as an issue in debate. I will just note a periodical called ‘Debow’s Review’ a publication working from New Orleans. It was a journal that brought in ‘artiiculate’ opinion on discussion of the relationship between North and South. In the antebellum South its pages contained much in the promotion for ‘Southern’ interests and arguments in the battle against Northern intimidation towards its culture and thinking. Since the 1850’s on it was one of the most influential in arguing that Southern ‘inferiority’ when compared to the North was dangerous to Southern institutions including slavery and the economic health of the region. Consequently political independence namely secession was deemed the only way to go to escape Northern ‘imperialism’. Well they implemented the plan , fought the war and negotiated a peace. But apparently many decades on apparently we still can’t deal with the fallout. Looks as if the South once again is the hotbed of contention when it comes to the direction of the US in its political structure and path. Unfortunately though we… Read more »
Roderick Beck
Guest

Trump is incompetent. He is a one term President.

Member

There is no doubt whatsoever that Trump is ignorant, vulgar, stupid, and mentally disturbed. His only knack is for channeling redneck resentments, which is just demagogy. But I disagree profoundly with Éva when she suggests that Orban, unlike Trump, is not stupid: He is almost as ignorant, vulgar and disturbed as Trump. His disorder is not narcissistic psychopathy but megalomanic psychopathy. And he too has only one knack: channeling redneck resentments. (Unlike Trump, though, he has no yearning for show-biz. They’re both utterly corrupt. The only open question is whether he’s as rich yet…)

Roderick Beck
Guest

I think Orbán is an accomplished autocrat. Far more competent than Trump will ever be.

Member

Ms Balogh,

Completely OT…with comment moderataion have readership figures declined on Hungarian Spectrum?

exTor
Guest
!!! – PROANTIFA – !!! http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/08/13/charlottesville-from-a-hungarian-perspective/#comment-136850 “Many members of my family were exterminated by Nazis, so I think I know a little more about the topic than you.” [2017 August 15, 11:49 PM] At the risk of sounding insensitive, gdfxx, your nonlogical statement proves nothing. I will accept, however, the implicity that you are more knowledgeable about your family’s history than I. Unprivy to your thought processes, I cant know how you happened to flag the paramountcy of your tidbit of family history, as if its factualness virtuously destroys all the points I made re your wrap of yourself in the flag of free speech, as if free speech is all that matters, gdfxx. You state that you are “not establishing a moral equivalence between [neonazis, white supremacists, the KKK] and those opposed to them”, yet reality demonstrates elsewise. You basically parroted Trump “many sides” talking points, such as the white ultranationalists having a permit and the counterdemonstrators not, violence on both sides, adpukem. Let me reiterate some saliences, gdfxx. The white supremacists violated the strictures set for their permit. Those countering the fascists DID NOT require a permit, because they were demonstrating their free speech. Your words belie a… Read more »
Guest

I’m still hoping that Marx was right when he wrote:
History repeats itself – the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce …
So the current developments of fascism all over Europe and in the USA might hopefully considered farcical and be ended by some real political forces – unless fascism inthe first half of the last Century where WW2 was necessary to stop and bury it.

Still I find it crazy, having to watch these crazies (?) – even here in the guise of “birthright” whom I consider to be “flying over the cuckoo’s nest”, not worthy of an answer.

Roderick Beck
Guest

The current developments is that populism has lost every major election in developed Europe and that Trump has a popularity rating converging to zero. A lot of this had to do with Europe’s economic recovery over the last six months.

Roderick Beck
Guest

History sometimes rhymes, but it does not repeat. Only Teutonics think that history is a master plan. Both Marx and his intellectual father, Hegel, were wrong.

exTor
Guest

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Not just Teutons, RB. A tad too cynical.

Actually, history does repeat itself, not only broadly. Although variables in their totality are somewhat different, valid generalities can be inferred.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Observer
Guest

Roderick
History DOES repeat itself, because it’s primarily human/societal reactions to circumstances and signals and human instincts practically don’t change, although they are moderated by temporary (in historical prospective) moral rules.

george
Guest

Totally OT but a very good and well written article about the nature of autocracy by Masha Gessen. Orban of course features as well as Trump.

Of course the real bottom line, as usual, never really gets questioned: that the strange, complex world people fear and are fed up with (whether in Hungary or the US) is what we call capitalism.

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/27/why-autocrats-fear-lgbt-rights-trump/

Roderick Beck
Guest

Capitalism is not a guarantee of success. You have to earn your success and no one can make a good living providing unskilled labor. Those days are over.

Ferenc
Guest
Thanks, excellent post! Unfortunately Anne Applebaum’s full article is available for subscribers only on the washingtonpost website. For who’s interested here’s an alternative way to read it: https://web.archive.org/web/20170818013538/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/beware-trump-may-use-the-alt-right-to-turn-himself-into-the-center/2017/08/17/63a0a06c-8350-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html?utm_term=.aa6348d74937 Regarding Anne Appelbaum’s writing about Hungary (and Fidesz), I have checked her website and found her 2010.Dec article “Jeopardizing democracy in Hungary” – https://www.anneapplebaum.com/2010/12/28/jeopardizing-democracy-in-hungary/ – in which she stated: “In fact, the real problem with this government is not its “fascism” but its uncontrolled contempt for its “liberal elite” and its “mainstream media.”” And ends with: “Orban grew up in a one-party state. His sense of history should prevent his party from building another one.” In my opinion she overlooked or wasn’t aware about the happenings around the 2002 elections in Hungary, which made very clear that OV&Fidesz are at heart NOT-DEMOCRATIC. The use of the kokarda, a national Hungarian symbol, for showing that Fidesz and it’s supporters are the only ‘real Hungarians’, is unacceptable in any democracy, so for any truly democratic party! Furthermore OV&Fidesz did not give back the kokarda to the nation, nor excuse themselves ever (to my knowledge) for using it, they only didn’t use it again at later elections (probably because the 2002 elections weren’t successful for… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

I always prefer info as original as possible, so searched for the original publication of the 2002 letter “12 Nem”.
It was published in Élet és Irodalom, XLVI. ÉVFOLYAM, 16. SZÁM, 2002. április 19.
And found it (incl.the wrong numbering 11-20-12) through archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20020522162258/http://www.es.hu:80/0216/publi.htm#jancso
A good translation still highly recommended… anybody here…

exTor
Guest

Many URLs have superfluous characters at the end following the extension, Ferenc. For instance Éva’s link looks like this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/beware-trump-may-use-the-alt-right-to-turn-himself-into-the-center/2017/08/17/63a0a06c-8350-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html?utm_term=.bd828bd0e232

Remove the characters after the .html extension so you get this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/beware-trump-may-use-the-alt-right-to-turn-himself-into-the-center/2017/08/17/63a0a06c-8350-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html

For me each URL opens the same page. It might work for you.

BTW, after my monthly 10 free articles, New York Times shuts down my access to its articles, however I am able to tweak my browser’s refresh mode so that I (almost always) get access to what I want.

Accessing Foreign Policy articles is usually more difficult, so I generally dont bother unless there’s something I really want to read.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

Those extra characters are a connection to you (or your browser) that helps the site to determine which links you follow or give to others …

Observer
Guest

Ferenc
Alex K

Its not only the names. Applebaum, for all her qualification and experience, often misses the point, doesn’t see the trend and where it leads to (i remember about some earlier articles). I even sent her some factual notes on her WPost address.

And yes, as she goes beyond reporting facts, the readers can reasonably expect her to see a bit ahead and she didn’t quite get it in the Orbán case. I’m afraid she still doesnt quite, politely, sha’s being too kind”.

Its fascism, Ms Appleboum, still “light” and not violent, but this animal (zoon politicon) has been pretty recognisable since 2011, if not since the autumn of 2006.

exTor
Guest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScgVbT_fry0 … [Cenk Uygur of TYT] The news is out that Steve Bannon quit/was fired. Unsurprising. One of the burrs under the saddle on the stallion Trump was Bannon’s name above that of Trump. Evidently, the devilry was in the details (of the cover). Socially midfield, read: probably liberal, Trump has a Jewish son-in-law. He was a racist renter, probably because he felt that black tenants would lower the value of his properties, thereby not being as able to charge higher rents as otherwise. I used to think that Trump was politically to the left of the Republican mainstream, however I dont believe that he has any coherent political position. He is mostly an adhoc president, one who reacts with gut instinct, as he did with respect to North Korea, threatening it with “fire and fury”. Bannon helped Trump win the presidency and was instrumental in the move to ban Muslim immigration, which has backfired so far. Trump probably thinks that Bannon is now more of a liability than an asset. Sebastian Gorka (or Uborka, as petőfi calls him) is another matter. He is low-key, relatively speaking, compared to Bannon, which means that he is less of a threat to… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

In a press conference in Turku today at 14 pm local time Finnish police released the following information about yesterday’s knife attacks in Turku.:

Assailant selected women as victims,
Both casualties are Finnish women
One Italian, one Swede and one British citizen among injured

The assailant and other suspects mainly asylum seekers
The assailant arrived in Finland in the beginning of 2016
4 other Moroccans are arrested

Investigations going on to see if the Turku and Barcelona events were related

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news.html

Member

In her article, Applebaum repeats the fiction that Jobbik is the second-largest party in Hungary. By what measure? The MSZP has 28 members of Parliament to Jobbik’s 24, opinion polls show the two parties at essentially level pegging.

I am currently reading Applebaum’s book, “The Iron Curtain” and am irritated by the misspelling of names. If she can’t get names right, how do I know her other facts are correct?

The “Jobbik is number two” boondoggle has been repeated so many times that journalists take it as fact. A simple web search would set them straight.

exTor
Guest

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PUS ::: In light of the above, I propose shortening the acronymic initialism POTUS to its main elements: President United States. Thus ::: PUS. Perfect.

MAGYARKOZÓ

SeeNoLightInMagyarTunnel
Guest
SeeNoLightInMagyarTunnel

“Today there is no longer a serious threat of extremists, akin to the alt-right extremists we saw demonstrating in Charlottesville, using deadly force in Hungary.”

Excuse me, but you seriously mean… just because Gabor Vona has for tactical reasons changed his tone in public lately, he and all his original supporters have become entirely different people??? Sorry, I don’t think so…

Observer
Guest

Vona et all may be the same people, but the same people in time do different things (even if those things are not their first choice), Almost all pols go on heat when they sniff a power opportunity and are capable of great fits and compromises to get it or keep it.
Ceterum censeo give Vona a chance to prove.

Roderick Bekc
Guest

Well, again, there is no evidence that Trump is moving to the center or could maintain a centrist position for more than two minutes. Look at how he alienates everyone. His business councils were disbanded after 8 resignations. He just canceled attending the annual Kennedy center event largely for fear of a chilly reception. There is competent evil and incompetent evil. Trump clearly belongs to the latter.

Observer
Guest

I second Rod B here: Trump doesnt have any ideology or even firm convictions but Trump first and (preferably) only. He’s a spoiled narcissist, pretty ignorant and thin skinned. His tantrums and lash outs show that he should be nowhere near any high office let alone Commander in Chief.

exTor
Guest

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https://444.hu/2017/08/19/a-cnn-szerint-gorka-lehet-a-kovetkezo-akit-trump-kirug

I am so looking forward to a little schadenfreude. Following CNN, 444.hu speculates that Gorka might be the next out the door. Let us pray.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_au4KPGpTo4 … The Real News

Max Blumenthal (a Washington journalist in interview) says that Trump could move to the center if he comes under Bannon Breitbart fire.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQUkaEVe7II … The Real News

Excellent take on how Bannon (and friends) saved the Trump campaign in the summer of 2016. Amongst those friends is Robert Mercer, a perhaps-more-savvy-than-Soros hedgefund manager, likely also more wealthy. In actuality, Mercer is to Bannon as Soros is supposed to be to the rest of the world. Mercer invested 10-million dollars in Breitbart, thereby facilitating its altist existence. His daughter Rebekah is a major GOP donor and a big behind-the-scenes actor of likely greater magnitude than Ivanka Trump.

MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3xd0VtHDuo … ABC News

PROANTIFA ::: I absolutely love this woman. Lacy MacAuley is the gutsy unrepentant spokesperson for antifas. This dozen-minute-long video runs through various recent occurrences, including a segment on Heather Heyer’s mother, who said that she doesn’t want to hear from Donald Trump. Evidently the mother had missed a WH call because she was at her daughter’s funeral. As for Lacy, she was obviously pleased-as-punch re various antifa clashes. Good for her. She aint takin no shit from nobody.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

An interesting article on Bannon, Mercer and what they want to do at breitbart now:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/18/steve-bannon-returns-breitbart-donald-trump
So we’ll see even more fake news and lies from them probably …

Guest
tappanch
Guest

Off topic, Spanish terror attacks.

Statistical analysis of the Muslim population of Spain.

1971: 0.3%
1991: 0.9%
2001: 1.7%
2012: 3.6%
2016: 4.1% (1.919 million people)

2016, in thousands:

Ceutans and Melillans : 72
Converts: 24
Naturalized: 277
Descendants (mostly children) of naturalized Muslims: 431
Total Spanish citizens: 804

Moroccan citizens: 753
Pakistanis: 78
Senegalese: 62
Algerians: 62
Nigerians: 41

Largest communities:

Catalonia: 26.9% of the total Muslim population of Spain
Andalusia: 16.1%
Madrid: 14.7%
Valencia: 10.7%

Largest % of the local population:

Catalonia: 7.0%
Murcia: 6.7%
La Rioja: 5.7%
Baleares: 4.6%
Madrid: 4.4%

Guest

The sins of the fathers …
The Moroccans wouldn’t be in Spain if part of Morocco hadn’t been part of the Spanish empire. And it seems that Spain wasn’t really successful in integrating them.

tappanch
Guest

Foreign citizens living in Spain in thousands in 2014,

Romanians: 730
Moroccans: 714
British: 312
Ecuadorans: 213
Italians: 182
Colombians: 172
Chinese: 165
Germans: 150
Bulgarians: 140
Bolivians: 126

Total of 4.676 million

The Moroccans make up only 15.2% of the people living in Spain with no Spanish citizenship.

Sins of the fathers?
I have not heard of terror attacks in Spain by South Americans (or Romanians)

tappanch
Guest

A.
The Spanish protectorate in Morocco lasted for 44 years only (1912-1956). At independence, there were about 1 million Muslims in Spanish Morocco (932 thousand in 1950), about 11% of the total Moroccan Muslim population.

The real reason for the increased presence of Moroccans in Europe is the population explosion in Morocco:

1950: 9.2 million
1960: 11.6
1970: 15.0
1980: 24.2
1990: 28.3
2000: 32.2
2017: 34.9 (July)

Moroccan diaspora:

Moroccan citizens + Local citizens of Moroccan origin

Spain: 753 + cca 500 = 1.3 million
France: 449 + cca 1000 = 1.5 million
Netherlands: 0.4 million
Belgium: 0.3 million

Sum of 4 countries: 3.5 million

B.
The terrorists came from Ripoll, a town of 11 thousand people in Girona province, Catalonia.

The ratio of the Muslim population in Girona province was 11.4% in 2016.

tappanch
Guest

Correction.

Population of Morocco

1950: 9.2 million
1960: 11.6
1970: 15.0
1980: 19.4
1990: 24.2
2000: 28.3
2010: 32.2
2017: 34.9 (July)

tappanch
Guest

Important remark:

[Employed people / total population]; youth unemployment rate

Algeria: 31%; 30%
Morocco: 32%; 26%

Belgium: 35%; 21%

Spain: 41%; 39%
France: 41%; 21%

Netherlands: 51%; 9%
Germany: 53%; 7%
Switzerland: 59%; 8%

exTor
Guest

The sins of the fathers? I bet that Moroccans are probably as integrated as any other ethnicity in Spain, wolfi.

Remember that Franco started his insurgency with Moroccan troops in 1936. Until the mid1990s Moroccans could enter Spain without visas. Many of them worked in agriculture, just as Latinos do in the United States. Spain has tightened Moroccan-immigration rules since 2000.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

I’ve often been to Spain over the last fifty years and imho the unemployment situation was always worse among the “coloured” people there – a vicious circle similar to the Roma situation in Hungary. And frustration leads to extremism of all kinds – just like in Germany in the 1930s …
I’m kind of proud that our German school system now manages this much better – at least in Western Germany. If you look more closely at the German unemployment numbers you’ll find a big difference between East and West – East Germany is again similar to Hungary because of the many years of “Socialism” which really ruined the society!

Roderick Beck
Guest

Spain is undergoing a vigorous recovery after misguided austerity imposed by Northern Europe. Excessive austerity was one of Merkel’s biggest mistake. Sound Economics is not Lutheranism. The US deficit went from 9% to under 3% in six years without Teutonic austerity.

Guest

Yes, Roderick, that’s something I also don’t understand – Merkel’s austerity policies. But I have to admit again that as a Green I didn’t agree with most policies of the CDU anyway, though I wasn’t hurt by them.
I know that evrybody’s asking us Germans to spend more, buy more, import more – I try to help … 🙂
I don’t believe in saving too much!

exTor
Guest
As I understand it, wolfi, you grew up in what was West Germany. If so, you have an amazing level of English. Would that my Magyar be half as good. (I love the subjunctive.) The ‘problem’ with the darker-skinned Moors, who are probably more-recent Moroccans, is not their integration into Spanish society, which means ethnicity-outward, but their acceptance by Spanish society, thus ethnicity-inward, as you point out. Moors, who have been in Spain for well over a millennium, have blended in with the mainstream. That does not hold true for the newer Northwest Africans. You marked Socialism [“Socialism”] implying ‘so-called’, which is correct. I refer to what existed pre1989 as some variant of Stalinism. In a nutshell, how would you compare what you know and experienced of East German Stalinism with respect to the Hungarian variant? Obviously it would be quite difficult to say much after a quarter century of change. I started studying Spanish in the late 1970s because I wanted to hitchhike in South America before boating to Australia. For a number of reasons that never transpired. Now that I am domiciled in Europe, not North America, I’ve been thinking of revisiting my Spanish yen. Or should that… Read more »
Guest

I have to confess I never was interested in the so calle Socialist countries before 1989 – especially since Eastern Germany was built on lies and a very “Prussian” strict following of the Stalinist rules – i went once to Berlin by car and the way the East German border police treated us…
And we were tourists who wanted to spend money!
So I only went to Yugoslavia – the people there treated us nicely – in the 80s we had a “summer residence” on the biggest nudist site (Koversada) and spent much of the summers there – or let other family members stay there.
From what my wife tells me Hungary wasn’t as bad – but it was as poor as East Germany compared to us rich Westerners.

Observer
Guest

Wolfi
Quite wrong: e.g. Germany, Austria, Swiss and the Scandinavians didn’t have colonies (to speak of), but they are flooded with immigrants.

exTor
Guest

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/us/demonstration-race-free-speech-boston-charlottesville.html … New York Times

Impressive Saturday-afternoon antiracist antiTrump demonstration, the crowd moving toward Boston Common. Great to see. This reminds of the Civil Rights protests in the early 1960s and the antiVietnam War protests a decade later. There is a new generation of youth being energized, moving leftward, a welcome counter to the previous generation’s meism.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

For background info on Bannon a US friend just read this and is deeply worried …
DEVIL’S BARGAIN: STEVEN BANNON, DONALD TRUMP, AND THE STORMING OF THE PRESIDENCY By Joshua Green
Now that I’ve finished the story of Bannon and Trump’s relationship, I can confidently predict that Steve Bannon will continue to raise hell in the coming months. Joshua Green shows how Bannon’s background in the military and at Goldman Sachs prepared him to espouse the “nationalist” vision that he ultimately sold to Trump during the Presidential campaign. With the help of Dark Money and mysterious billionaires and Russian hackers, Bannon helped pull off the most astounding Presidential campaign upset in modern political history!

Steve Bannon, like many of the Trump Inner Circle, is a quirky guy. He’s made movies, built an Alt-Right media empire, and planned to “farm out” the war in Afghanistan to private defense contractors like Blackwater (Bannon’s firing put the kabosh on this nutty idea). We haven’t heard the last of Steve Bannon.

exTor
Guest

http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/08/18/moving-to-the-center-anne-applebaums-essay-on-viktor-orban-and-donald-trump/#comment-137071 … Devil’s Bargain [Joshua Green]

I already cited the book. Those interested should check out this YouTube Democracy Now video entitled A Look at How a Racial Theorist Tied to Mussolini & Hitler Influenced Steve Bannon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVoXgnZ3V7k

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

Sorry, extor for missing this! Must be old age …

exTor
Guest

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With the flood of comments during the past few days, it’s easy not to have noticed stuff. My point was to again show the book about Bannon, which has definitely become a mustread.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQewMYKU8R0 … Dark Money

Right now I’m watching a video interview of Jane Mayer, whose book Dark Money details the funding by the Mercers (Rebekah and Robert, daughter and father) who financed and salvaged the Trump presidency campaign. They also financed Breitbart.

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MAGYARKOZÓ

exTor
Guest

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I’m embarrassed I hadn’t noticed the misspelling of ‘fascism’ until now, Éva. I’ve found another one equally appropriate.

I presume Jane Mayer’s political lean was already well-evident by the time she became your student. When was that?

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

The one picture reminds me …
Totally OT (or not?):
After the first meeting with my wife in a restaurant (arranged by a friend who told us: You’re destined for each other, which of course we shrugged off at first …) I brought her home and before saying good night had a look at her bookshelves (!) …
Most of the mainly Hungarian authors were of course unknown to me but a few names I knew:
Isaac Asimov, Thomas Mann, Sinclair Lewis – and D H Lawrence with Lady C. …
So I said to myself – this might get interesting!
Btw, we were both already over 60 years – though she looked a lot younger (and still does …)!

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