Hungarians oppose the Orbán government’s policy toward ethnic Hungarians living abroad

Originally, I considered writing about the “gala interview” that László Kövér gave to Magyar Idők yesterday. I must admit that this decision was based mostly on the couple of reactions I read, which insisted that Kövér’s interview was the craziest he has ever given, that it’s becoming apparent to everyone that the president of the Hungarian parliament is not quite normal. Index, ahead of the interview’s publication, was sure that the interview would have “exciting” parts, while a journalist from Pesti Bulvár, a liberal internet site, was flabbergasted after reading it.

So, foolish me, I thought this interview would give us new insight into Kövér as well as into the latest mindset of the Fidesz leadership. Perhaps I have developed an immunity to everything that comes from the characters who are running the country at the moment, but I found nothing new in this “gala interview.” I guess what shocked the journalists of Pesti Bulvár was that Kövér announced that he wouldn’t be surprised if the European Union collapsed in his lifetime. Kövér is 58 years old, so the timetable is pretty tight. Aside from this prophecy, Kövér repeated his belief in the conspiracy of certain clandestine powers (háttérhatalmak) that, at the time it was first floated by Viktor Orbán a year ago, consisted of the U.S. government, the Clintons, George Soros, and the civic organizations financed by him. By now the composition of this group of evil spirits has changed somewhat. After the election of Donald Trump as president of the United States, “a certain segment of the intellectual, political, and economic elite” joined the conspiracy because “they are trying their best to hamstring the democratically elected president.” So, instead of the U.S. government, Kövér considers the American liberal elite part of the hidden powers that run the world. I fail to see what is new in all that.

On the other hand, there is something that is worth discussing. A new poll was just released showing that Hungarian citizens living in Hungary have serious reservations about the financial assistance given to ethnic Hungarians who live in neighboring countries. They also reject their participation in Hungarian elections.

Those of you who follow the discussions among readers of Hungarian Spectrum may recall that only a few days ago I expressed my personal misgivings about giving voting rights to people who have possibly never set foot in the country. They don’t live and work there, but now they have the right to determine the political fate of the country, possibly at the expense of those who have to carry the political and economic burden of it. Ex Tor especially took exception to my position, saying that there can be no citizenship without voting rights. At that time I looked at the electoral laws of several European countries and found that most of them do in fact grant voting rights but that there are exceptions. In any case, I believe that the Hungarian situation is unique, if for nothing else but the large number of votes expected from the neighboring countries. If the government’s plans materialize, about ten percent of all votes cast would come from abroad.

Now let’s see the results of the poll Publicus Institute published for Vasárnapi Hírek. Just as I said earlier, my hunch was that Hungarians wouldn’t mind giving citizenship to those who can prove Hungarian ancestry but who were born and still live in another country, be it one of the neighboring countries or countries such as Canada, the U.S., France, or Germany. The majority, however, object to certain privileges these ethnic Hungarians receive at the moment. They resent the sizable amount of money that is being spent on projects in the neighboring countries to benefit ethnic Hungarians. They oppose their entitlement to various social benefits in Hungary. They have serious objections to the voting rights of dual citizens. They consider the present law, which makes a distinction between new dual citizens and Hungarian citizens who work abroad, discriminatory and unfair. And when it comes to spending billions on the football academy in the Szekler-inhabited area of Romania, they are really up in arms (-81%).

Anyone who’s interested in all the details of the poll can visit Publicus’s website. Here I will summarize only the most important findings. On the whole, there is strong support (68%) for granting dual citizenship to those who want to become Hungarian citizens, but backing for the legislation that granted it varies greatly, depending on party affiliation. Fidesz and Jobbik are strong defenders of the measure, while the majority of MSZP voters object even to dual citizenship as a concept. (Publicus has the habit of putting all left-liberal parties under MSZP.)

The situation is entirely different when it comes to the fabulous amount of money the Orbán government spends on ethnic Hungarians living in Romania, Serbia, Ukraine, and Slovakia. The majority of respondents disapprove of the policy of providing social benefits similar to the ones they receive to people who have never lived in the country. People feel strongly against providing dual citizens with pensions, paid leaves for new mothers, travel discounts, and welfare benefits (60-70%), but somewhat strangely 55% would provide them with healthcare. When it comes to the reasons for Fidesz’s generosity toward ethnic Hungarians, the majority of the Hungarian voters cannot be fooled. Or at least only Fidesz voters (57%) believe in their party leaders’ altruism. The most skeptical bunch are the Jobbik voters (77%), closely followed by MSZP (74%), but uncommitted voters are not far behind (63%). The fact that new dual citizens can vote via mail as opposed to Hungarian citizens working abroad, who must travel miles to reach the embassy or a consulate, is considered to be discriminatory and unfair by 81% of the people. On the crucial question of voting rights, 57% of the respondents indicated their opposition to the present practice.

Although the Orbán government’s “national policies” (nemzetpolitika) are unpopular, the government considers the “investment” worthwhile, as is obvious from its frantic spending on Hungarian ethnic groups lately. The government spends hand over fist on those “sisters and brothers” abroad who are squarely in the Fidesz camp. The extra votes Fidesz expects to receive from them are considered to be crucial in the forthcoming election. Moreover, since there is no independent oversight of the incoming ballots, their numbers can be manipulated, depending on need. Let’s not forget that Fidesz’s two-thirds majority in 2010 was announced after the foreign votes were counted. It was highly suspicious then, and it will be equally suspicious if a similar situation occurs in 2018.

August 20, 2017
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PENNY OSWALT
Guest

Would anyone be upset if one was to return home to Budapest after living abroad (USA), and be a contributer rather than consuming. Especially if they left as a minor (baby).

exTor
Guest

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Born in England, a lifelong (until recently) resident of Canada, I first came to Hungary in 1983, then vacationed 11 weeks here in 1984. After a hiatus of 2 decades I returned, overwintering a half year [2010/2011] before coming back fulltime. I have resided here since my April 2012 birthday.

People are surprised that I have chosen to live in Hungary, especially since most know that many many Magyars have chosen to vote with their feet, ‘escaping’ (primarily) to Germany and England.

I tell people that I never had any problem with Hungary, that my personal situtation forced my return. I dont elaborate, however I usually manage to get a dig in at the government, saying how much I dislike Viktor Orbán.

MAGYARKOZÓ

wrfree
Guest

Perhaps one regret I have looking back after my very early visits to the country is that I didn’t stay long enough to know if I could live there after being raised in the States. If I stayed I would have had the opportunity to grow up with my very extended family.

The country and people at the time did make an impression on me with its history and culture especially with the latter as I was raised intimately with it. But in reflection it would not have worked as my ‘flexibility’ in handling the new culture at the time would probably have been wanting.

I guess if politics was out of the way things could have been different. If I stayed I think I would have been a problem for Magyarorszag and for the family that I have been mostly separated from. The great word I think that typifies ‘Magyarness’ is ‘separation’. It is a state of being that never seems to fly from the scene.

Sackhoes Contributor
Guest

Hungarian citizens living abroad (like the US) can easily vote by mail, if they follow the simple and legally correct steps to register their address. Hungarian law requires that a person must be a true resident in Hungary or else inform the authorities of their foreign address. Too many Hungarians, however, refuse to do this and use their relatives’ address to receive their mail.

In the US election officials regularly verify voters residence and cancel invalid registrations. Hungary could easily do the same.

Of course the real problem is that the government likes the fact that recent emigrees find it difficult to vote.

The fair solution would be to allow any Hungarian citizen to vote either in person or by mail, or better yet, electronically, like they do it in Estonia.

Member

For most countries, votes from citizens living abroad have no significant effect on the outcome of the elections. But Hungary is different in this respect also.
I think that citizenship doesn’t only mean rights (voting and others) but responsibilities also. Those who don’t have citizen’s responsibilities, should not have citizen’s rights.
Newly naturalized ethnic Hungarians, born and living in other countries (dual citizens) certainly will not join the Hungarian Army, don’t pay Hungarian taxes, among other responsibilities, so why should they have only the right to vote? For one reason only, to keep the viktor in power, with gross cheating, even sending in false voting slips in the name of people living abroad.
On the other hand, many Hungarians are dreaming of recreating the never existed Great Hungary, including the surrounding areas, where some people live with Hungarian ancestry, Transylvania and other areas. Now they can enjoy the fact, that the majority of these people, who take the time to vote, will vote for the viktor, since they are brainwashed and they get a lot of benefits from Hungarian taxpayer’s money.
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it!

The reality
Guest

“On the other hand, many Hungarians are dreaming of recreating the never existed Great Hungary, including the surrounding areas, where some people live with Hungarian ancestry, Transylvania and other areas.”

100% false.
Gyula, I suggest to read history books of academic historians about Hungary , before you write such a nonsense comment.

Guest

@”The real troll” – just f*ck off!
Please don’t engage the creature – it was here before …

exTor
Guest

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Somewhat over-the-top with your response.
There was no need for the effword, wolfi,
notwithstanding its asteriskedness.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Guest

“The reality” was here before – and well worth some scathing response!
I engage with these trolls maybe once in a session but if they return …
Luckily most of them don’t.

Member

Academic historians, such as Schmidt Mária?
Academic historians claimed 1956 was a Counter-Revolution, later it was called a Revolution, national heroes get evaluated differently with every Government and new historians are hired to write a new history.
Hungary never had unbiased and factual history written, that was held up throughout the last dozen decades. The “academic historians” are bought by the Governments, a dime a dozen and now even most members of the Academy is serving the Fidesz.
Perhaps when you read the works of your favorite “academic historians” you can be happy with the stories they created.
I rather just peel off the proven facts from the myriads of lies.

wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘Hungary never had unbiased and factual history written, that was held up throughout the last dozen decades’

Yes, its history always functions as a moving target depending on the political winds. The rationales , arguments et al used to allegedly sort out truths are always used to build a palatable line of thinking by taking a past and molding and interpreting it to conform with the perfunctory historical and destined needs of the day. With this a history of Magyarorszag is not being presented but rather historiography for the most part is the promulgation of the history of b***s***.

petofi
Guest

The first I heard of 1956 being a counter revolution was intoned by Papa Putin some years ago when he visited Budapest and spit that nugget right in to Orban’s eye.

tappanch
Guest

1956 – the same thing – various official names

name – Hungarian, English : when? year-month

felkelés, uprising
népfelkelés, popular uprising
események, events

ellenforradalom, counter-revolution

népfelkelés, popular uprising
forradalom, revolution
forradalom és szabadságharc, revolution and freedom fight

tappanch
Guest

The term “ellenforradalom” invokes Horthy’s self-declared “ellenforradalom” of 1919-1921.

The expression “forradalom és szabadságharc” refers to the revolution on March 15, 1848 and the independence war with Austria from August 1848 to August 1849, which ended in defeat.

wrfree
Guest

From Politico at time when Putin visited:

‘ The inscription “Eternal gratitude and glory to the Soviet heroes who sacrificed their lives for the liberty of the Hungarian people during the counter-revolution of 1956 October” remained unchanged after its renovation’

Whoa.. with ‘gratitude’ like that we can tell how some see things the way they want to see it. With Putin we get history debased with falsehoods which hoodwink the masses.

Aida
Guest

Greater Hungary concept is a piece of propaganda and nothing else. It cannot be created within the framework of existing treaties on European borders. Changing those treaties would require international agreement or bilateral deals. I cannot think of any country that would consider such. If I am wrong and Hungary were to gain territory at the expense of its neighbour’s the result would be catastrophic, principally for Hungary. Extra territory brings people who live there who are by no means all Hungarian, this into a country where the political and cultural emphasis is on homogeneity. Also the would be imported Hungarians all speak at least another language. This alone would set them aside from their newly acquired neighbours. Greater Hungary is rooted in the same dangerous nonsense that brought about the Brexit vote. The difference is that whilst there is life outside the EU, the Greater Hungary concept is a toxic mix that might bring about the EU’s dissolution giving the advantage to Moscow and its oligarchs.

Guest

The Nazis’ favourite was Großdeutschland too – anyone who uses this today is immediately recognised …

I’m often wondering about the intellectual level of the “Greater Hungarians” – some of which have those crazy maps on their cars …
And as I’ve written before it gets especially funny when that expensive car has a Slovak licence plate – because the “Greater Hungarian” doesn’t like to pay taxes in Hungary.

And now for the good news:
This lunacy makes it very easy to recognise the little fascists, so you can just turn away – don’t have to engage in any kind of discussion with them!
It’s like them having a big sign on their forehead:
Nazi!

The reality
Guest

You tried to compare apples and oranges. It was a false methapor.

Großdeutschland idea had not any historical roots, so it was just a concept of German chauvinists during interwar period. Germans wanted a lot of territory, which historically were never part of Germany or any “German” states.

Guest

I don’t know what kind of “meth vapor” you’re using – Großdeutschland describes Germany in the borders of 1914 (maybe plus Austria …) and Germans were a large majority there – not like Hungary where Hungarians were in a minority already at that time …

But:
There is a large difference to the whining of some/many (?) Hugarians …
Nobody in his right mind in Germany uses this concept – even “Versailles” doesn’t move us – we left this all behind and enjoy our holidays in these places that we “lost”. Luckily because of the EU and Schengen that’s no problem for us …

Aida
Guest

I have been told not to engage with you. The comparison you make is valid to this extent. The predominant reason for the Greater Germany, whether rooted in history or not, was political and part of expansionist ambition of the Nazi rulers. Whether Greater Hungary has historical roots is neither here nor there. It is unacceptable. Nobody who knows anything about it thinks otherwise. Therefore the politicians who promote it do it to bolster up their image that needs it due to their inability to solve bread and butter issues in Hungary. Or in Hungary maybe a “Zsiros Kenyer” issue.
As I wrote in my earlier post a political class wedded to national exclusiveness will not import millions of aliens when they have no idea how to or any intention to treat fairly. They know that is just a sure fire way to disorder and international condemnation. There is no traction to the crazy notion and it is just a joke. But not a very good one.

Guest

Gyula, you’re absolutely right – to use an US expression:
No representation without taxation!

Afaik in most European countries and the USA you are not allowed to vote as a citizen living in a foreign country for a certain number of yeary, not paying taxes etc …
Of course we all know that what Fidesz does discriminates against the hardworking Hungarians in Western Europe e g …

petofi
Guest

“No representation…”

But of course, Hungarians know better: witness the multitude of voters in Serbia and Romania. Hungary, the Great, has instituted ‘representation without taxation’. The Great Magyars!

HAJRA MAGYAROK!!!

Sackhoes Contributor
Guest

Actually, an American citizen living abroad can vote for as long as he/she is alive. Voting is the most basic right of any citizen and the basis of a democratic society. Universal suffrage, as opposed to means based or ability based suffrage is practiced in most developed countries.

Observer
Guest

Gyula,

The Fidesz supporters I know, for all their silly parroting of the idiotic party lines, do not believe any territorial gains are possible in the foreseeable future. They toy with the idea, sometimes for show, but they know the demographic fact of rapidly diminishing nos of ethnic Hungarians in the neighboring countries.

Member

I did not name the Fidesz supporters in my comment, as there are voters and non-voters of all kinds of various affiliations and beliefs and among them who are still dreaming of recreating some kind of Greater Hungary, if for nothing else but an illusion.
Isn’t this illusion that is shown by the Fidesz, by financing and meeting, organizing, brainwashing the loyal people in the surrounding countries, who are supposedly good Hungarians.
On Aug 20, bakers of various nationalities were making “The Hungarian New Bread”, for the same purpose.
Hungary is living in the falsely depicted past, their self-image is based on some measure on lies and exaggerations. The children are taught nice tales and Hungarian mythology, that is being reinforced by (some of the “academic historians) in their adult lives as “history”.
A nation that only turns toward and lives in its glorified past and it does not create anything worthwhile in the present has no future.

Guest

Totally agree!
Imho the situation in Germany after WW1 (!) was similar – and we all know what came out of it …

Not too much OT:
The Brexiteers also talk about Great Briatain – and Trump wants to make America great again and we see what results these activities produce …
That’s not just a coincidence

Observer
Guest

Agreed, this myth is a populist staple. I was pointing to the real beliefs, which one can detect only in personal contacts observing the telling body language, intonation and other signs of incencerity.

Observer
Guest

Gyula

You must know the term Greater Hungary (Nagy/Törtènelmi Magyarorszàg) which has been widely used since WWI and usually means the territories administered by the Hun government in the Dual Monarchy. Most educated people know vaguely what was the ethnical mix in those areas, but labor the issue to show patriotism.
There’s hardly any greatness in the term, but you can’t deny its utilitarian use.

Member

There is no denying that the term exists. However, as you point it out, the connotations of the term show a wide variation based on political affiliation and the amount of nationalism and chauvinism expressed at any given time.

dos929
Guest
This practice of the Orban government about voting rights for ethnic Hungarians follows the lies and deceptions of Orban and the FIDESZ when they vehemently denied that they want to give voting rights as well besides the so-called ‘Hungarian ID cards’. And this is exactly what happened. So much for their credibility if there was one at all. It is rare in real democracies that people who weren’t born and do not live in the mother-country have voting rights. Rather the opposite governs. For examplle take the case of Australia, where voting even in the Municipal elections is compulsory, but expats cannot vote. This follows the correct logic that people, who do not contribute to the country’s wellbeing and do not live there, haven’t got the right to influence the life of those that do live, work, paying taxes and taking part in the economic, cultural and political life of the ‘mother country’. And Australia is not the only one, but one of the many (if not the most) practicing this. What the Orban regime is doing on the other hand is buying votes, and not just buying them but manipulating the actual voting numbers. Since there is no longer… Read more »
Norbert
Guest

Actually dos929, you are wrong on Australian expats not being able to vote from abroad. You can, but with a time limit, and you have return to Australia within six years of leaving. You are right about the compulsory of voting within the country though.

Some sources for you:
http://www.austexpatinvestor.com/voting-in-australian-elections-while-living-overseas/

&

https://www.exfin.com/australian-expat-voting

I have Australian citizenship in case you are wondering.

Kiwi’s also allow you to vote from abroad, as I also hold New Zealand citizenship.

Some info for you:
http://www.elections.org.nz/voters/get-ready-enrol-and-vote/enrol-and-vote-overseas

tappanch
Guest

As of August 20, 2017

354,190 new citizens with no Hungarian address applied to vote,
292,224 applications were accepted.

Ferenc
Guest

I think voting right shouldn’t depend on (dual) citizenship only, but also on ‘direct life’ connection with country to vote in. With the required ‘direct life’ connection I mean, that the person her/himself or her/his parents must have lived inside the borders of the country.
Without a ‘direct life’ connection to a country, voting doesn’t make any sense, doesn’t give one any responsibilities, and basically comes down to being manipulated through propaganda by at heart undemocratic politicians.

Sackhoes Contributor
Guest

Where do you get idea that voting depends on dual citizenship?? First of all there is no such thing as “dual citizenship” granted by any country. It is simply a status for an individual who happens to be a citizen of more than one country. In my case, I was born in Budapest more than 75 years ago and remained a citizen ever since. No one “granted” me that citizenship. 55 years ago the United States did grant me American citizenship, thus I became a dual citizen. In the early ’90’s, after Hungary became free, I requested and received a Hungarian passport, to which I was entitled, as a citizen.

Each country grants me the right to vote, even if I reside outside those countries borders. Thus, if I lived in Australia or Canada, I could vote in the US and Hungarian elections. Those are the facts of life….

tappanch
Guest

Terror in Catalonia:

Sources close to the investigation say the imam could be aligned with the ultra-conservative Salafist movement,
which many believe provides an ideological justification for the use of violence.
In Catalonia, one in three prayer centers, 79 in total, are aligned with this movement

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/08/20/inenglish/1503229267_859569.html

Salafists in the Muslim population:

Catalonia: 33%
France: 4% of the Muslim communities in 2015

Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Pakistan = ???
Bangladesh: about 20%
India: about 15%
Egypt: about 10%

2008 estimates of Salafists = Wahhabis in the Muslim population of the Gulf region

Qatar: 47%, other Sunnis 34%, Shias 19%
United Arab Emirates: 45%, other Sunnis: 33%, Shias 9%, Ibadis 5%
Saudi Arabia 23% (in and around the capital Riyadh), other Sunnis: 52%, Shias: 25%

Bahrain: 6%, other Sunnis 20%, Shias 74%
Kuwait: 2%, other Sunnis 75%, Shias 23%

In the UAE, Salafists are
the majority in Sharjah, Ajman, Umm Quwain, Ras al-Khaimah,
the minority in Abu Dhabi, Dubai
little in Fujairah

tappanch
Guest

Egyptian elections.

2011 for Parliament (27.1 million people voted)
Muslim Brotherhood (Morsi): 37.5%
Salafists (Nour Party): 27.8%

2012 for Shura Council (only 6.4 million people voted)
Muslim Brotherhood (Morsi): 45.0%
Salafists (Nour Party): 28.6%

Ferenc
Guest

From Vasárnapi Hírek (based on same poll by Publicus Institute): comment image

Only 17% really, without any reservations, support/agree with the voting rights of ‘dual citizens’

More details in: “Elegünk van a magyarságpolitikából”(2017.Aug.19) – https://www.vasarnapihirek.hu/fokusz/nem_kerunk_a_voksaikbol_elegunk_van_a_magyarsagpolitikabol

Ferenc
Guest

OT – Bannon&Co
Example of ‘correctness’ of Breitbart (London office in this specific case):comment image
On the jetski: German football player Lukas Podolski (in 2014 in Brazil)

Meanwhile BB put another image to their story and added the following
Editor’s Note: A previous version of this story included an image of Lukas Podolski on a jet ski. This image appeared as an illustration of a person on a jet ski. Breitbart London wishes to apologise to Mr. Podolski. There is no evidence Mr. Podolski is either a migrant gang member, nor being human trafficked. We wish Mr. Podolski well in his recently announced international retirement.

My reaction: Apologies to Mr.Podolski only, that’s all BB? No excuses to your readers for falsifying news by using completely not related images!
What if BB would have used unknown and not to their story related persons on a jetski, it still would be falsification of news, but would it have been discovered and excused by BB?

Guest

I saw that picture too – it’s all over the German media and the comments are hilarious. So every time some lunatic quotes breitbart as a source (it happens here too just as on politics.hu – do you read me Andy?) I kind of get hysterically laughing …

Ferenc
Guest

Some other things BB’s Jet Ski story:
-the story was Aug.17 (one day before BB) reported by other media (a.o.France24, The Sun, Daily Mail, BBC), some with some unclear images
-the source of the news was a Spanish police statement (issued Aug.17)
-some media (Sun, DM) focused on the sensational side (gang smashed etc, without any figures)
-some media (France24, BBC) brought it in between news about the current happenings on the waters between Morocco and Spain and with clear figures (for the jet-ski gang: 3 arrested, 2 on int.warrant list / almost daily trips for 4-5.000 Euro)

Laura Iesue
Guest

I think that this voting system will remain in place so long as the current powers that be stand to benefit from the system (whichever side they may lay). A few questions as I am relatively new to Hungarian politics, however:

1) Has this dual citizenship/acknowledgement of ethnic Hungarians resulted in any economic benefits for Hungary?

2) What is the voting patterns of these ethnic Hungarians? To this regard, is the voting turnout so significant that it even has an effect on election outcomes? I’m assuming yes, considering the stance that the government is taking towards these groups, currently.

3) Is there REALLY any level of voter fraud? In the states, voter fraud (next to 0%) tends to be a usual political ploy to suppress voters, especially minorities.

If one can provide me with some nonpartisan facts on this with possible articles that’d be great!

Observer
Guest

Laura I

you can search the archives here on the subject, just as in The Budapest Beacon or Orange files.
We are mostly partisan, but respect the facts, no BB here.

exTor
Guest
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/elections-abroad/home-country-elections/index_en.htm … EUROPEAN UNION COUNTRY VOTING http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/08/02/election-predictions-and-fallout-from-the-botka-molnar-controversy/#comment-136247 … ÉVA Thanks for the above link from August 3rd, Éva. I checked the 11 countries on which information was available. No info was available on 20 countries. Most countries (that had provided voting information) allow nonresident voting (and sometimes standing as candidates). Those that do NOT allow external voting: Ireland, Liechtenstein. Belgians cannot stand as candidates when residing outside of Belgium. Links likely to interest some HS readers: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/elections-abroad/home-country-elections/germany/index_en.htm … GERMANY http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/elections-abroad/home-country-elections/hungary/index_en.htm … HUNGARY At the time of the above thread, it was my thought that restricting the voting rights of nonresident citizens was not tenable for a number of reasons. I had no real preference either way, however I did come to accept your viewpoint of the harm that such voting can cause in general and the harm that does occur to Hungary, namely the reelection of Fidesz. Hungary should then do as Ireland does, proscribe external-resident voting, Éva. Yesterday I learned that Robert Mercer, than main mercenary force behind Donald Trump, has an all-abiding hatred of both Clintons that buttresses his belief that Bill Clinton is a bonafide murderer. Now we have a barely hinged [süsü magyarul] László Kövér pronouncing… Read more »
exTor
Guest

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/elections-abroad/home-country-elections/hungary/index_en.htm

Well then Éva, I’m confused. Per the above link, we have “Hungarian citizens can stand as candidates in their home-country elections from abroad.” and “When abroad, you may vote in Hungarian national-Parliament elections and European Parliament elections.”

We seem to be belaboring this issue. I only want clarification. The above seems to contradict your point about EU elections, unless there’s something that I’m not getting. A year ago the government sent letters to expatriates re the then-upcoming ‘consultation’ vote.

http://index.hu/belföld/2016/09/09/nyugtalanító_levelet_kaptak_orbán_viktortól_a_külföldi_magyarok

Unless I dont understand what I quoted from the EU Hungary-voting-rules webpage, I’m sure Hungarian expats will be getting at least one letter from Viktor between now and April 2018 cajoling votes for him.

For the record, I was convinced (before your current essay) of your position re foreign voting. I support restrictive voting rights in the way that Ireland does. Even though rights are not absolute, in most cases, my initial reservation a few weeks back stemmed from a philosophical problem I initially had over the deprivation of citizen voting rights.

MAGYARKOZÓ

Observer
Guest

exTor

One more important element – most countries have some voting provisions for their citizens who have moved abroad for a period of time.

Fidesz, on the other hand, created new rules which enabled hundreds of thousands to vote in H parliamentary elections, even if they had never set foot on Hungarian soil, or had never had any connection to Hun, but for some ancestors. Fidesz gov conducted a forceful campaign to create as many of these new citizens as possible.

I doubt there is another country with such provisions in Europe.

Guest

There’s a bad German joke about those people who want German citizenship (living in Russia e g) who “have never set foot on German soil” but have German roots – one might even try to make a Hungarian version of this:

A Russian comes to the German consulate because he wants to become a German citizen and is asked about his German roots/connections to Germany.
His answer:
My uncle had a German shepard dog and I was best friends with this animal and often took it for a walk – so I must be a German too …

Johann Wolff
Guest
@wolfi7777 Dear wolfi, that’s a bad joke but is understandable when it comes from the red-green basket. My grandparents came from Transylvania, we were ethnic Germans (like Herta Muller ??), my grandparents barley spoke any other language than German. Most of my family went to war for Germany, most of my family was murdered becasue we didn’t deny our ethnic background and culture but stood up for it. So why is my family less German than those who were lucky to remain between the borders drawn after ’45 ? Or those “guest workers” who forgot to leave ? Or anybody else who claimed that is persecuted and gets benefits since setting a foot into Germany meanwhile holidaying into the country they fled from, and will get German citizenship soon together with their extended family ? The German gov offered us citizenship becasue we ARE GERMANS and served/bleed for Germany. I live in the US and Cayman Islands but I’m still contributing more to the German economy than most of its residents, let alone Merkel’s new BFFs. And yes, wherever I lived I voted in German elections: CDU. Unfotunately was even voting twice for the woman who pushed my party so… Read more »
Guest

I might turn this around:
Your family went to war for Hitler – are you proud of that?
You’ll probably feel at home in the AfD if you think Mrs Merkel pushed my party so much toward the left spectrum. Luckily for me the people from Erdély who came to Germany after 1989 that we know are not like you …
Everybody who stands for our democratic values in Germany is welcome!

Johann Wolff
Guest

Sorry, but you lost the argument at the very moment you tried to push me in the AFD corner. Numerous publications, like Politico (which redirected me here) opinionate that Merkel socialdemocratized the CDU. I was quite happy with Kohl, I would be quite happy with Jens Spahn.

But the real “crime” you committed is the gross trivialization of German history. After the ww2 the west needed a bulwark against the Soviets, so in order to turn the Germans into allies the propaganda went on “not the Germans, but the Nazis were our enemies, not Germany committed unspeakable atrocities but Nazi Germany”. Obviously that was gladly embraced by the Germans whose state apparatus contained numerous former Nazi officials even in the late ’60s. Apologizes but that’s like the Austrian who were the “first victims of Hitler”, shaking off their responsibilities even today. I think we can agree that Hitler’s popularity at the time was unparalleled amongst the Germans. Of course, in this case you must embrace the cold reality that there weren’t “they the bad” and”we the good” just we, the bad.

Norbert
Guest

Mind you Johann, I am not suprised Wolfi doesn’t think you are German. I was in the same boat as you, I am ethnic German from Hungary, was told many times in the 1980’s in Germany, that we can’t be German, because we weren’t born in Germany. Yet, a black African immigrant, who’s son is born in Germany for example, is German. It’s hillarious how Germany has re-defined it’s own ethnic identity.

My great uncle for example, also served in the German army as an SS officer on the eastern front, as he was conscripted. Funnily enough, the only time I ever received a comment, “but you are German, as you are ethnic German”, came from a Swiss woman in Australia. When I explained to her why I don’t want to be ethnic German, but stick to being Hungarian, she said, don’t worry, Germany has lost it’s own ethnic identity long ago. Mind you, I am Schwab, NOT German.

Not to mention, look at my name, Norbert. Most typical German name there is.

Mind you, luckily I don’t live in Germany, I would go insane with what is happening to that country.

Sackhoes Contributor
Guest

To be precise: they did not “create new rules which enabled hundreds of thousand to vote in the H parliamentary election”. What they did was: they granted citizenship to hundreds of thousands of people, who previously did not have Hungarian citizenship. Citizenship, of course, comes with voting rights, in Hungary, just like in the United States and everywhere else.

Observer
Guest

Sackhoes

New was the fast track procedure to acquire citizenship. New was the mail vote option, the once in ten years electoral roll registration, the lax or lack of control to prevent abuses.

The intended and achieved result was to create differences between Hun citizens working and living abroad, which is illegal. Keeping one’s Hun address has many practical advantages and Fid exploited this to practically deprive hundreds of thousands of voting opportunity.

Istvan
Guest
The United States does not formally recognize dual citizenship. Generally the State Department also has not taken any stand against it, either legally or politically. Typically, no American will forfeit his or her citizenship by undertaking the responsibilities of citizenship in another country. This is true even if the responsibilities include traveling with a foreign passport, voting in another country’s election, or running for and/or serving in public office of another country. In most cases, it is unimportant to U.S. authorities whether another country also claims you as a citizen. That changes if the US citizen attempts to get a security clearance. So we see in this Department of State statement some real problems with getting a security clearance with that agency if you are a dual national, see https://careers.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Dual-Citizenship.pdf The US Department of Defense in relationship to dual citizenship looks at it very critically. There was this section added to the guidelines not long ago: “Foreign involvement raises concerns about an individual’s judgment, reliability and trustworthiness when it is in conflict with U.S. national interests or when the individual acts to conceal it.  By itself, the fact that a U.S. citizen is also a citizen of another country is… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

OT – or may be not….comment image
“Határon túli” football stadiums planned to be built with Hungarian public/state money:
Slovakia – 2x – tot.3,4 billion HUF – 11,3million EUR
Ukraine – 1x – tot.1,0 billion HUF – 3,3 million EUR
Romania – 1x – tot.2,0 billion HUF – 6,7 million EUR
Serbia – 1x – tot.3,0 billion HUF – 10,0 million EUR
Croatia – 1x – tot.1,0 billion HUF – 3,3 million EUR

TOTAL – 6x – 10,4 billion HUF – 34,7 million EUR

More info (incl.video report): http://www.atv.hu/belfold/20170818-1-8-milliard-forintos-magyar-allami-tamogatas-szlovak-focicsapatoknak
The company with the best offer will get the order, you can now place your bets, who’ll be involved…

PS: may be also an indirect method to get more votes… for a certain party…

petofi
Guest

Piffle! 35 million euro…what’s that? It wouldn’t even buy enough toilet paper for all the hospitals in Hungary. Anyway, if it did, all the rolls would be stolen by the following day…

HAJRA MAGYAROK!

exTor
Guest

Thanx for ATV link, Ferenc, re the Fidesz plans for the building of foreign soccer stadiums. The fact that so much money –almost 10-billion forints– has been allocated for this purpose should be usable to politicize against Fidesz in the leadup to the 2018 election.

comment image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOvRdAP1idI … KÁDÁR JÁNOS

Quite by chance, the following video was about Kádár János. [Budai villa, nyaraló, különvonat – Milyen ember volt Kádár János?] Among the things dealt with was whether he was a ‘total puritan’ [végtelenül puritán]. It ends with a bit about his gravesite, which is the secondmost-visited gravesite in the country. The video ends in wondering why so many in Hungary have a soft spot for Kádár. I believe Éva does. Perhaps she might opine on him.

MAGYARKOZÓ

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