MSZP is grasping at straws as its support plummets

At 1:00 p.m. today HVG published Medián’s latest opinion poll on the state of Hungarian party politics and the popularity of politicians. The message MSZP’s leadership received was shocking. For the first time in 25 years, MSZP’s support among determined voters sank below 10%. At 3:45 p.m. Gyula Molnár, MSZP chairman, released a short communiqué on the party’s website: “MSZP’s offer is still alive.” In it, Molnár called attention to the Závecz Research Institute’s quick poll showing popular support for the party’s “generous offer,” after which the following sentence was tacked on: “If all six parties outside MSZP find the person of Ferenc Gyurcsány acceptable on the list, then we are certainly open to negotiations concerning the issue.” Well, that didn’t take long.

After László Botka’s eight months of activity that has only damaged the party, it seems that some forces wouldn’t mind his retirement to Szeged. The interview last night with Tamás Lattmann on ATV’s Egyenes beszéd might point to such a turn of events. Originally, Lattmann was invited as a legal expert on international law to discuss Hungary’s rather belligerent attitude toward Ukraine and this position’s legal ramifications. But it seems that Lattmann had other things on his mind. He apparently indicated before the show that he would like to talk about something else. And that something was hot stuff.

You may recall that at the end of January Lattmann announced his candidacy for the premiership as a non-party candidate, representing civil society. At that point there was no officially declared candidate, and Lattmann believed that a non-party person might be able to expedite negotiations among the left-of-center parties. He also hoped that he could open the door that at the moment divides parties and civil society. But then came László Botka, and Lattmann’s name disappeared from the news.

Lattmann in the interview on Egyenes beszéd claimed that by December of last year there was political agreement among four parties–MSZP, DK, Együtt, and Párbeszéd–which included a joint candidacy for the post of prime minister. He would have been the candidate. But then came László Botka, and the promising negotiations came to a screeching halt. Lattmann’s story about the successful negotiations is not new. We have heard Ferenc Gyurcsány and Lajos Bokros talk about them innumerable times. But that these parties were thinking of an outsider as the candidate for the post of prime minister is certainly new.

Tamás Lattmann

Lattmann gave details. He had negotiations concerning his candidacy with Gyula Molnár, MSZP chairman, Bertalan Tóth, head of MSZP’s parliamentary faction, István Hiller, head of the top party leaders, and Zsolt Molnár, an important party leader, especially in Budapest politics. Lattmann also had talks with DK. As for the anti-Gyurcsány strategy, Lattmann claims, that was Botka’s contribution to MSZP’s policy. Prior to his arrival on the scene, by December, an MSZP-DK understanding was a done deal, including Gyurcsány’s presence on a common party list.

How did the parties in question react to Lattmann’s revelations? According to the communiqué published today by the Demokratikus Koalíció:

During the fall of last year the party’s leaders received a position paper (tájékoztatás) that the leaders of MSZP are conducting negotiations with Tamás Lattmann about his candidacy for the post of prime minister. According to the position paper, the candidate had the backing of the chairman, the head of the parliamentary delegation, and the chairman of the board. MSZP asked DK to meet with Tamás Lattmann for an introductory visit. Accordingly, Csaba Molnár, managing deputy chairman, who was leading the negotiations with the other parties, had a meeting with Tamás Lattmann. The managing deputy chairman informed the presidium of DK of the meeting in detail, and it was decided to be open to the nomination. The presidium accordingly authorized Csaba Molnár to continue talks with the candidate. However, no second meeting was held because MSZP, changing its former position, nominated László Botka as the party’s candidate.

In brief, Demokratikus Koalíció corroborated Lattmann’s recollection of his negotiations with the MSZP leaders. Yet the MSZP politicians mentioned by Lattmann and reaffirmed by DK’s communiqué today outright denied any such negotiations. According to Gyula Molnár, “there is a serious misunderstanding” on the part of Tamás Lattmann, who doesn’t seem to understand the Hungarian language. There were only talks about “policy cooperation” (szakpoliltikai együttműködés). Accusing a university professor of international law of not knowing the Hungarian language is quite a charge.

Today Gyula Molnár, István Hiller, and Bertalan Tóth published a communiqué in which they repeated that Lattmann was mistaken. “It is a fact that can be checked by anybody, since no party organ dealt with the issue and therefore no decision was made.” You may have noticed that Zsolt Molnár, the fourth person Lattmann claimed he talked with, was not among the signatories. He is the one who about a month ago wrote an article about the desirability of stopping the anti-Gyurcsány campaign. In any case, the joint communiqué is no more than typical socialist double-talk. Yes, the issue didn’t get to any decision-making body, but the candidate had “the backing” of the three top party officials who asked DK to take a look at him.

Now let’s move on to MSZP’s second “generous offer.” This time MSZP expressed its willingness to negotiate about Gyurcsány’s inclusion on the list as long as all the other parties are ready to sit down and talk about it. But, as Zoom rightly pointed out, “this is an offer without any stake” because we know that all the other parties already said no to the first “generous offer.” A typical MSZP move, I’m afraid. The offer is meaningless.

Meanwhile something funny happened on the right. The government media suddenly became a great admirer of László Botka, who was thrown overboard by his heartless comrades. Origo’s headline reads: “They kicked Botka in the teeth.” In the article Origo came up with one possible scenario behind the scenes in socialist circles. According to the article, the Molnár-Hiller-Tóth-Molnár team wanted to stop the nomination of Botka already in January, but “at that point they were unable to accomplish their plan.” However, in the last few weeks, Botka couldn’t work on the campaign with full energy because of the constant party intrigues against him, and therefore he is more vulnerable to the intrigues of the Molnár-Hiller-Tóth-Molnár team. Finding one of Fidesz’s own papers standing up for a poor downtrodden MSZP candidate is really amusing. Magyar Idők is not happy with MSZP’s “entirely new direction” as opposed to the “categorical rejection” of Gyurcsány. “We could also say that Gyurcsány, like the fairy-tale wolf, put his foot into MSZP’s cottage. How will this tale end?”

Of course, we don’t know the end of the tale (although I doubt that MSZP will live happily ever after), but today Tamás Lattmann said in an interview with Reflector that under these new circumstances he would no longer be a viable candidate. But he considers Bernadett Szél “a perfectly qualified candidate to become prime minister,” although he is not an LMP supporter. So, this is where we stand at the moment, but who knows what tomorrow will bring.

September 27, 2017
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Gabor Toka
Guest
The regime has an impressive arsenal of tools to discredit the opposition. There are strong financial incentives for regime parties to stick together in military discipline and for opposition parties to proliferate and run separate candidates and lists in elections. There is extreme inequity in media access and resources for policy development and private polling to develop meaningful policy platforms with a chance to appeal to the public. The same applies for the resources that oil with subsidies the social events and pay the full-time community organizers that glue together so nicely the uncountable satellite organizations and party branch organizations of the pro-regime side. The lack of career opportunities and any prospect of political impact for anyone associated with the opposition guarantees a severe lack of all sorts of expertise and sheer political talent on the challenger side. Meanwhile a large section of public opinion is getting ever more desperate to get rid of the regime and their anger is neatly channeled into wild unhappiness with the opposition leaders. But the opposition’s coordination problems are merely the tip of the iceberg arising from a series of equations that has no solution. Blaming for these stories some admittedly ill-qualified leaders would… Read more »
Marty
Guest

“Patient work towards power sharing arrangements and creating splits among regime supporters is the only meaningful path ahead.”

I hope you meant power sharing arrangement between opposition parties.

Just to make it clear: appeasement and compromises cannot be an option with Fidesz.

Generosity, bipartizanship, cooperation, compromise are the natural starting point for liberals (and Western politicians except for Republicans) as they hate to be tough and unrelenting. The Hungarian left/liberal politicians are fundamentally cafe house intellectuals from Buda and not tough rural kids like Orban, Rogan, Lazar, Kósa etc.

But since the conservative side is always much more aggressive, steadfast and strategic the conservatives are always able to end up with “a compromise” that really favors the right-wing and which makes an idiot out of the left-wing (which is why the leftist voters hate their own parties).

The left-wing/liberal side – if it ever hopes to govern (which is a big question) – must gain an image of being tough, principled, unwavering fighters who have values which aren’t for sale.

Gabor Toka
Guest

In fact I really think that power sharing with (some of) Fidesz is the only realistic way of moving the country towards a democratic order (slowly, eventually, with lasting stains, etc). All the illusions about the miraculous clean alternatives to this are just smokescreen for opposition parties to appease their core electorate while dancing to the tune of Orban’s favorite songs.

Marty
Guest
I disagree. When you have moral superiority you cannot be seen as trading it away by compromising with a morally inferior party. That kills your moral superiority immediately and kills your party in the long run. The rendszerváltás, the 1990 compromise (instead of a revolution and clean break with communism) was a huge moral/political mistake in retrospect because it allowed the hated communists to survive (in the form of MSZP) and allowed the entire left-wing to be branded to this day as “just a bunch of old commies”. The constitution became a “Stalinist constitution” (it was heavily amended but still carried the 1949 designation) etc. This process de-legitimized the moral importance of the rendszerváltás, it was deemed by many as a kind of shady, back-room deal which betrayed the righteous Hungarians. No surprise that few people shed a tear when that constitutional system was supplanted by a Fidesz-system. Or note that SZDSZ was morally superior (was a staunchly anti-communist party) until it comromised and legitimized MSZP. Then SZDSZ went into free fall and imploded. I could go on. Morals and deserts are extremely important for voters. Voters hate politicking and dealing-wheeling and triangulation. They want principled politicians with values. When… Read more »
Marty
Guest
“Meanwhile a large section of public opinion is getting ever more desperate to get rid of the regime and their anger is neatly channeled into wild unhappiness with the opposition leaders. ” This one is spot on. I think the leftist voters want foremost to punish their own parties for letting them down, for missing so many chances when there was still a chance for the opposition to defeat Orban. Also every leftist knows that Orban in a similar situation in which the left is now would’ve been much more strategic, aggressive, would not have the government gotten away with so much corruption and incompetence. The leftist opposition could’ve done so much more – even if the system is rigged. But the conclusion of your first paragraph is that Hungary is not a democracy. I certainly believe so and I repeat it all the time just to make things clearer. I think this evaluation must be emphasized because talking simply about elections implies that Hungary is “a democracy” when it is an “electoral autocracy” at best. Actually the system is totally rigged. However, saying that Hungary is not a democracy is not politically correct and there is an enormous pressure… Read more »
wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘ Patient work towards power sharing arrangements and creating splits among regime supporters is the only meaningful path ahead’

Fully concur with this. Unfortunately the skills and the much needed mental shifts in political give and take that could have been learned to a greater degree in those earlier days in the fledgling democracy appears to be in short supply. It got halted quite rudely. True compromise: a lost art for the possible.

It’s too bad the opposition continually uses the knives against themselves in their squabbles as they fight with soggy wet noodles against their competitor. They’re street-fighters with control of all the alleys. Time to step up and compete…. wisely and prudently. They need to be better in what they are and hope to be.

Guest

This is “better” than all the political satires on film/tv that I’ve seen yet!
Is Hungary really a lost cause?

PS and totally OT:
who knows what tomorrow will bring
Eva, your last sentence reminded me of my favourite Psychedelic Rock group: Traffic …
Here’s a story from almost 50 years ago
https://www.stevewinwood.com/news/1392
We are not like all the rest
You can see us any day of the week.
Come around, sit down, take a sniff, fall asleep
Baby you don’t have to speak.
I’d like to show you where it is
But then it wouldn’t even mean a thing.
Nothing is easy, baby just please me
Who knows what tomorrow may bring.

If for just one moment
You could step outside your mind.
And float across the ceiling
I don’t think the folks would mind.

wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘Traffic’

A great band. Magyarorszag might take a page from the great rock classic musical tableau: : in-tune, having an artistic craft obsession and revolutionizing culture with its unabashed f-r-e-e-d-o-m of creating new musical language and art. It put the exclamation point onto our modernity of rapid and constant change.

dos929
Guest
Gyurcsany’s ‘famous’ speech to the inner circle of the MSZP at Oszod was, or rather could have been, a wake–up call for the MSZP. But they didn’t wake up then, and ever since they are fooling themselves about that they are the true representatives of the left leaning voters. Ever since Gyurcsany left the MSZP and established the DK (the party into which many of the country’s intellectuals belong), the MSZP jumped on the bandwagon of the then Schiffer led LMP in denouncing Gyurcsany on a witch-hunt like character-assassination war that was fuelled by the Orban regime relentlessly as well. Nice company, I may say… Schiffer-Orban-Botka… There are still some decent and talented people in Hungary; such as Bokros, Majtenyi and others, but in this mess that the Orban led FIDESZ very cleverly created by raping the democratic rules and re-shaping the country’s political landscape by force, there is very little chance of any of them becoming the saviour of the nation. Hungary, as a country on the slippery dip of tyranny, is sinking deeper and deeper in the land of desperation, where for more and more of its citizens the basic necessities of life in the 21st century are… Read more »
Farkas
Guest
It seems to me that the choice for the Hungarian electorate is between relatively stable, but profoundly corrupt governance by Fidesz on the one hand, and on the other hand profoundly unstable, but relatively non-corrupt governance by one or another alliance between a gaggle of mini-parties and splinter opposition factions. In the minds of most Hungarian voters the dominant ideology is xenophobic nationalism, with socialism a swear word and liberalism a synonym for Jew where it is not conflated with socialism. The so-called left liberal intellectual milieu in Budapest is widely regarded as un-Hungarian, a kind of alien tumor upon the sacred body of of the Hungarian nation. The political polarity of left (or left liberal) versus right no longer appear to be particularly relevant or illuminating from the point of view of the Hungarian voter. Instead, the the key distinctions appear to be stable versus unstable on the one hand, and corrupt versus non-corrupt on the other hand, with corrupt readily accepted as the price of relative social and political stability. The outcome of the upcoming general elections in 2018 is therefore most likely to be another whopping majority for Fidesz, and quite possibly even a two thirds super… Read more »
Marty
Guest
I think this is a very good summary. However. The left-wing has always been associated with lack of discipline, instability, infighting, leakings, backstabbing and the like. Internal debates were always conducted in public, MSZP was always divided with its many “platforms”. Thus this terrible image of the left-wing predates 2010, this has nothing to do with Fidesz. If you vote left you always knew you get that. Unfortunately for the left-wing, voters in the new era since 2008 (the economic crisis) and especially since 2015 (the migrant crisis) crave stability above all. Voters have absolutely no tolerance for parties, politicians who are like that. Yet, the left-wing hasn’t done anything else in the last 10 years than strengthened its old image, every day, very consistently. Although Fidesz might end up in a coalition with Jobbik it would be a divided government with lots of conflicts. So it would be much better than now. But why would Jobbik enter the government? Junior parties are always blamed for the failures and senior parties always get credit for successes. Jobbik would support Fidesz from outside in exchange for some dough. Most likely, however, just as Erdogan did, Orban would engineer some problem for… Read more »
Farkas
Guest
Hi Marty @Marty What do you actually mean by “left wing” in the Hungarian political context? What is the vision that drives them, if any? What substantive ideological content do they offer, if any? What practical achievements can they point to after the regime change that would have actually benefited the average Joe in Hungary? As to the nature of politics in Hungary, it is clearly a function of the mindset and political comfort zone of that average Joe, whether out in godforsaken Röjtökmuzsaly or Bátorterenye, in Miskolc, Pécs or Budapest. Consequently, nothing ever would or could change for the better in Hungarian politics until and unless the mindset and political comfort zone of the average Joe had radically changed. And when is that going to happen? The political genius of Orbán is that he successfully tapped and continues to tap into the mindset and political comfort zone of the average Joe in Hungary, which guaranteed and continue to guarantee overwhelming political power for him and his party. The strategy applied by Orbán had then effectively taken the all of the oxygen out of the air of the gaggle opposing him. And that mindset and political comfort zone of the… Read more »
Marty
Guest
I guess we think quite alike. As to your questions about the existing “left-wing” – obviously I share your view that there are no answers. The left-wing is ideologically empty. It’s full of people who don’t think anything about anything. And voters feel that. They just don’t understand what the left-wing has to offer, especially to the average joe. n any case the left-wing is only offering piecemeal, triangulated solutions (so as not to offend right-wingers) when people, even “average joes” (undecided median voters) want profound change. And yes, I agree with your last two points – the left failed to do the homework. The system is rigged but the left-wing could’ve done so much more. Especially if it wanted to reach moral superiority, an absolute must in politics, and which the left-wing failed to reach in 8 years – when Orban is the biggest kleptocrat of the Hungarian history. But the average joe is not stupid and not so retrograde as you imply. Orban of course has a responsibility for feeding them with nationalist/anti-semitic propaganda, using the basest instincts to get their votes. It’s totally self-defeating to write millions off as racist, dumb, fascist country bumpkins. They are not,… Read more »
Guest

I don’t have big hopes for the foreseeable future in Hungarian politics – too many people (on all sides) are too corrupt, only interested in their own profit and success – the whole discussion shows that humanitarian vallues e g are nothing in present day Hungary, it’s a real shame!
So just let them rot – and continue to toil as the lowly paid wage slaves of the rich West like in Kadar times …
It’s sad but true!

Member

“t’s totally self-defeating to write millions off as racist, dumb, fascist country bumpkins. They are not, but nobody treats them as potential voters except for the right wing and nobody deals with their issues but the right-wing. Of course they vote right wing.”

Racism, homophobia, misogynism, violence against the Roma, Jews, migrants, women and liberals should never be pandered to.

And sorry, it might be politically incorrect to say so but the typical Fidesz voter *is* a racist, fascist thick moron who would justify beating his wife up because it is the “traditional” Hungarian way of doing things and because his leader tells his its ok to do so.

They are Orban`s “People”, a tribe of evil and as such are a lost cause. A complete and utter decontamination of attitudes is required not a race to compete with the fascists tothe sewers.

Marty
Guest
You misunderstand me. The voters should be catered to, not their base instincts and biases as Orban does it. When did the left-wing have anything to say to rural, uneducated folks? What’s the left-wings vision for that rural world?? If you ignore and disrespect voters (lough at them because they like making pálinka or sausages) the voters won’t vote for you, it’s that simple. The “average joe” is an uneducated middle-aged person who is unhappy in his/her job, frustrated for being in a seemingly dead-end situation. Mind you Hungarian GDP has barely surpassed the 1988 values by 2008 (20 years later) when a lost decade came after the 2008 crises and we are still below the 2007 values (at least in EUR or USD terms). Can you blame people for being unhappy? His/her rural environment has been slowly withering away (except for small pockets like Győr or Veszprém or Balatonfüred), with 700,000 Hungarians (and counting) having left Hungary for good. Public services don’t work or exist, inequality is growing and so on. Meanwhile the world is changing fast: immigration, new customs (gays) etc. It’s stressful and voters are desperate. They want to be loved and cared about, and they hate… Read more »
Guest

Have you seen the questionnaire on the “Soros plan” in English in the Bp Beacon? (Thanks to Viking)
https://budapestbeacon.com/soros-plan-national-consultation-questions/
This “questionnaire” is so insane – I don’t know whether to laugh hysterically or cry in my nice red wine we just had with lunch …

Let’s do a similar questionnaire on Orbán and Fidesz!

1) Orbán’s goal is to become Christian emperor of Europe and reintrodunce the death penalty for all heretics.
Now I invite everybody to continue …

Ferenc
Guest

Why make a similar questionnaire? Why mirror/copy the nonsense?
Just come to the one and only possible conclusion for this government, which is producing such: it’s NOT DEMOCRATIC!!
So best is to try to make clear to all Hungarian people that, it is for their own good, NOT to choose for NOT DEMOCRATIC parties and only VOTE for REAL DEMOCRATS!!

wrfree
Guest

Wow. Those finely tuned and ‘precise’ English sentences are probably the best example of how the electorate is viewed and defined by those in power.
It is a rude ‘diss’ on the entire electorate’s self-respect when it comes to making decisions. Sadly the questions represent the ‘great fear’. Next up: the incantations by bubbling cauldrons to invoke the spirits of Sorosian dread. Spooks flying high.

Ferenc
Guest

Against Hadházy Ákos, co-chairman of LMP, has been started criminal procedure, because he has been spreading false information about the National Civil-Service University (NKE) and it’s rector (according a statement by NKE).
source: http://nepszava.hu/cikk/1141702-hadhazy-akos-ellen-buntetoeljaras-indult

What about a criminal procedure against the HU government for spreading a lot of false information (or better said plain lies) in their actual National Consultation. If not any Hungarian is willing to do that and looking to the ‘questions’, I think even the EU (‘Brussels’) can start such (although I don’t know which court would be most appropriate for such an international case)!

Member

Why are democratic parties even considering taking part in this charade of an election? Hungary is not a democracy and participating in anything which leads credence to the “democratic” right of the fascists to continue to raping the Hungary is now tantamount to treason (not to mention downright stupidity).

The filth will not be washed out at the ballot box, that is for sure.

Aida
Guest
Hungary is no more a democracy than it is Christian. During the Communist era the Party was not Communist. They have little culture and even less grounding in what is taken for granted in the civilised parts of Europe and in America. They know they want to survive and to promote the little self serving groups they belong to without having any real global view. I spoke today to a cousin on the telephone after many years of silence. He is a decent Hungarian with a nice family, a business and a good heart. He has no connection with the concept of truth. He told me a number of falsehoods in a few minutes, not because he wanted to cheat me. Not at all. He did it because he wanted to please me. Facts do not really exist in Hungary. In Hungary most people do not speak to each other to arrive at a fact and reason based outcome. Not at all. What they say serves a purpose. Arriving at the truth or a truth based outcome is rarely amongst them. This is not a Central European feature. I have come across the same amongst Indians, Pakistanis, Thais. Maybe this… Read more »
wrfree
Guest

Interesting comment on the telephone conversation. You apparently got ‘falsehoods’. Recently, I got not even a blip of a remark on current events in the country’s politics. Absolutely nothing. Zilch. Nada. Perhaps they did not think one who doesn’t live in the country wanted to hear about it. But I did. Looks as if individuals simply are building their own political silos. Apparently apathy besides spreading falsehoods could be another response to Fidesz’s determined march of illiberalism in the 21st.

Gabor Toka
Guest

Yes, I am sure you have a point but there are Hungarians and there are some other Hungarians. Some love truth dearly – and, hey, some even used to be genuine communists. Of course it is also a nonsense what Farkas writes, i.e. that Hungarians are all into “xenophobic nationalism, with socialism a swear word and liberalism a synonym for Jew where it is not conflated with socialism”. The reason why we decry the current state of government is because it could be better.

Farkas
Guest

@ Gabor Toka

With respect, I did NOT write that Hungarians are ALL into “xenophobic etc.”

What I did write was that “In the minds of most Hungarian voters the dominant ideology is xenophobic nationalism, with socialism a swear word and liberalism a synonym for Jew where it is not conflated with socialism.”

Saying MOST Hungarian voters and DOMINANT ideology are very different from saying that ALL are into it.

And may I add that the proposition I put is empirically indisputable, and most certainly meets the pub test right across Hungary, which is what counts on election day.

After all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

So much for the proposition being dismissed out of hand as a piece of nonsense.

Observer
Guest

Marty
Toka

Many of the mentioned by you negative perceptions re the dem parties and politicians are mostly the results of the total and incessant Fid propaganda, a bunch of lies and fiction. There’s no comparison between any of the previous govs and the current regime.

There can not be fair elections in the current situation, but there is a chance that enough of the population, feeling the deterioration, will simply ignore the propaganda and “just say no”. This why Orban is nervous, see his spending of hundreds of billions on propaganda, even if nonsensical or primitive.
The Dem opposition should continue to shed light on the reality in order to create such mood, similar to that of 1989 when the voters readily took a jump in the dark and voted for anyone, but the former communists.

An external event can speed up this process too.

Ferenc
Guest

Don’t you mean: Marty & Farkas?
I know we recently had a ‘mistrolling’ here, but could they be the latest invention of FID trolls?
Reading their comments, gives a few impressions of being against OV&Co, but basically they are writing FID mantra and not giving their own opinion, nor thinking about solutions.
I gave one some questions, and again the same blah blah blah…

Observer
Guest

Yes, it is the Fid mantra. I guess they may be launching more sophisticated trolls – posturing as democrats and spreading a refined version of the “Fidesz/Orban always wins” mantra, trying to create the impression that even the dems don’t believe they can win.

Marty
Guest
Guys, you are seeing trolls everywhere. As I mentioned I personally invested a lot (made sacrifices not many people make) into opposing Orban (as a democrat) and will continue to do so. Your behavior reminds me of the Democrats’ obsession with the Russians. The Russians sure played a role in the US presidential elections (although their plan surely backfired) but then the question becomes: how come Trump was so close to winning that a little Russian help could push him over the edge in the first place? My point is that you are missing the important things about which I dared to write. FYI there are a number of left-wing voter friends I know who never voted anything else than for left or liberal parties. Never once in 28 years. Urban, educated, open-minded, well-connected, absolutely well-meaning people who are proud professionals in their fields. But they for months have seriously been considering voting Jobbik because they can’t stand the stupidity of the left-wing any longer. They are done with “the leftists” (the current crop). They are still leftists/liberals at heart but they absolutely want change, any change, and they know that they will not get that if some old school… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

You just confirm what I wrote above!!

Will you ever think about ordering this:comment image
?

Farkas
Guest

@Ferenc

The misappropriation of the Nazi badge of shame and stigma for Jews in a profoundly Jew-hating country like Hungary is particularly galling and thoroughly distasteful.

As are hysterical responses to decently, calmly and coherently expressed opinions that differ from one’s own, such as cases where instead of mounting sensible counterarguments, labeling all those who put forward otherwise perfectly decent and coherent opinions other than one’s own, as devious trolls, Fidesz bots or despicable Russian agents.

I note that in many blogs some regular contributors are incapable of civilized discourse, and much prefer an echo chamber to calmly and coherently debating pros and cons. Especially when they are outraged – OUTRAGED! – by one thing or another. Which is often.

I myself consider both Fidesz and the Russians as loathsome looters and mafiosi. No doubt that is the reason why loyal contributors to this blog would consider me a despicable and devious troll in the service of Fidesz and the Russians.

As Einstein said: “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”

Farkas
Guest

An afterthought to all of the above.

Regular contributors to blogs and other social networks are often characterized by wishful thinking, a marked preference for the confirmation of one’s personal biases, and an intolerance for opinions other than their own.

Can’t be helped. This is the nature of most so-called debate on blogs and social networks in our time. The communication revolution had well and truly opened the floodgates to this.

Farkas
Guest

To my mind the expropriation of the Nazi badge of stigma and shame for Jews on a tee-shirt is both disgusting and an insult to the memory of those Jewish men, women, children and elderly who were FORCED to wear it before becoming victims of industrial style bestial mass murder, and if they did not wear it, they exposed themselves to be shot on the spot for the ‘crime’ of not wearing it.

It seems to me that none of the refugees and would be migrants from the Middle East, Asia and Africa are being murdered, gassed and cremated by Europeans, and Europeans also appear to be desisting from throwing the babies of refugees and would be migrants onto pyres or off bridges as targets of shooting practice by guffawing louts.

So let’s compare apples to apples, and not apples to bananas.

Ferenc
Guest

@Farkas
First I asked Marty.
By jumping in to answer for him (ping-pong), you confirm also what I wrote above!
And what you wrote is again blah blah blah, without giving your own opinion, nor making clear where you yourself stand for! Aka.trolling (for Fid, or others…)

About the T-shirt: it’s a reaction to the happenings in Őcsény (more info at http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/09/29/justine-spike-hungarian-village-vents-its-hatred-of-refugees/ ).
For my feeling the usage of the Star is acceptable in this case (note: I remain, as always, interested in the OPINION of people with family connections to it’s earlier usage).
The Star itself is hopefully very confronting for people, who have any sympathy with happenings in Őcsény, and and let them have a good look in their own human mirror.

Farkas
Guest

@Ferenc

Well, well, well.

First, I most humbly beg your pardon that I dared to butt in on your private conversation with Marty. Didn’t realize it was private . . .

Second, as to my blah, blah, blah trolling, let me give it to you straight, as bluntly as I can: I strongly disagree with most positions you espouse and with the manner that you espouse them.

Third, as to the Hungarian position on Middle East, Asian and African refugees and would-be-immigrants, I hold that Hungarians have a perfect right to decide who they allow to settle in their midst or even visit them, and who they don’t – even if that fails to measure up to the lofty humanitarian standards of one-worlders like yourself.

Fourth, I consider your comments about the Nazi’s yellow star of stigma and shame for Jews to be not just disgusting and insulting, but thoroughly ignorant too. Go learn something about Jewish history in Hungary before you begin to pontificate on this subject.

Ferenc
Guest

@Farkas (and Marty?)
Nah Nah Nah…
1.Everybody is free to reply (or not), I just noted that you confirmed my suspicion of a Marty-Farkas ping-pong going on here.
2.You AGAIN don’t give your own opinion (hiding behind general disagreement with somebody else) and confirm my suspicion that some parts of your comments are just a screen to hide your real intentions.
3.People staying perfectly LEGAL in Hungary are invited for a stay in a pension by the pension’s owner!! Anybody having any objections to that should try his luck PEACEFULLY at court!! Anybody doing anything NOT PEACEFULLY against that, should be SEND to court!! Any politician making no any objections to the unlawful AGGRESSION in this case, is not following any rule of law, at heart NOT democratic and should be put out of power!!
4.see my earlier comment

PS: I noticed objections to the use of the Star in this case ONLY on media like 888 and such…

wpDiscuz