National consultation on the Soros Plan: Questions and infoboxes

On September 27 Magyar Idők, the flagship paper of the vast government media, released the text of the seven questions that will appear on the questionnaire to be distributed, to the tune of 6.5 billion forints, to approximately 8 million Hungarian citizens. The issue to which the Orbán government is seeking reactions is the so-called Soros Plan. The paper explained that this “national consultation” will be different from earlier ones because after each question there will be an “infobox” containing background information.

Source: abouthungary.hu

The background information comes largely from two essays George Soros published in 2015 and 2016 on the subject. The first one, titled “Rebuilding the Asylum System,” appeared in Project Syndicate, and the second, “This is Europe’s last chance to fix its refugee policy,” was published in Foreign Policy. These two sources are readily available. For a full appreciation of the depth of the mendacity committed by the Orbán government when compiling this “national consultation” I highly recommend taking a look at these articles.

Here you can read the complete text of the questionnaire, including the content of the infoboxes. To each point of the alleged Soros Plan the respondent will be asked whether he supports that idea.

Here is the text. The translation is my own. I tried to track down the quotations in the infoboxes, but there were a couple of instances where I couldn’t locate them in their original English version. In these cases I had to resort to translating the text from Hungarian.

  1. George Soros wants to persuade Brussels to resettle at least one million immigrants from Africa and the Middle East onto the territory of the European Union, including Hungary.
  • Infobox: Soros for years has been working to change Europe and European society. He wants to achieve his goal through the resettlement of masses of people from other civilizations. At the time of the introduction of his plan he stated that “the EU has to accept at least a million asylum-seekers annually for the foreseeable future” (Project Syndicate 2015.09.26). The European Parliament shares the same view. The organization supported resettlement programs and the creation of migration routes (2015/2342 [INI]).
  1. George Soros, together with the officials in Brussels, also wants to achieve the dismantlement of the fences and the opening of borders to the migrants.
  • Infobox: Well-guarded borders provide an effective defense against illegal immigration. It is no coincidence that one of the important goals of the Soros Plan is the dismantlement of the fences. As the billionaire put it, “the goal of our plan is the protection of the refugees and national borders are barriers” (Bloomberg Business 2015.10.30). Certain Brussels officials also attacked the closing of the borders. In June of this year, the Commissioner for Migration stated that “it is not a good solution if EU Member States erect fences at the external borders.”
  1. One part of the Soros Plan is the compulsory distribution by Brussels of immigrants who conglomerated in Western Europe, especially in respect to the East European countries. Hungary would have to take part in this.
  • Infobox: George Soros wrote the following about the distribution of immigrants: “If they do not become permanent and mandatory features of a common EU asylum system, it will fall apart” (Financial Times 2015.07.26). In 2015, a decision was taken in Brussels that, as a first step, Hungary should accept 1,294 immigrants. In 2016, the European Commission proposed the dispersion of an unlimited number of immigrants (IP/16/1620). The EU Asylum and Migration Agency, in line with the proposal of George Soros, has been weakening the national competence on immigration. Once the entry quotas are in place, Hungarians will no longer have a say about whom they will live with in the future.
  1. According to the Soros Plan, Brussels should force all EU Member States, including Hungary, to pay each immigrant HUF 9 million in welfare payments.
  • Infobox: According to Soros, significant amounts should be spent on the immigrants. “The EU should provide €15,000 ($16,800) per asylum seeker for each of the first two years to help cover housing, health care, and education costs—and to make accepting refugees more appealing to member states” (Project Syndicate 2015.09.26). According to the billionaire, this sum should be covered by taking out loans. Soros believes that in order to repay the loans taxes should be raised. The billionaire would raise VAT and taxes on gasoline and tourism. Soros also proposed, while visiting Brussels last year, that the EU should reduce the agricultural and cohesion support for the countries of Central Europe in order to solve the problem of the migration crisis.
  1. Another goal of George Soros is to make sure that migrants receive milder sentences for crimes they commit.
  • Infobox: George Soros is supporting organizations that assist immigration and defend immigrants who commit crimes. One such organization is the Helsinki Commission, which argued that “the use of serious sanctions in the case of illegal border crossing is troubling.” Another Soros organization, Amnesty International, repeatedly demanded the release of Ahmed H., who attacked Hungarian policemen guarding the border and therefore was convicted. Amnesty would want the Hungarian state to pay damages.
  1. The aim of the Soros Plan is to de-emphasize the languages and cultures of the European countries in order to achieve faster integration of the illegal immigrants.
  • Infobox: George Soros, in his book Open Society, wrote that “the decline of the authority of nation states is a welcome development.” Soros has also talked about “not abandoning our conviction that migration is good for Europe.” He called on NGOs and companies to become immigration sponsors. He also said that the continent must finally take active steps toward developing open societies. In some European countries and in multinational companies European and Christian symbols are voluntarily removed nowadays so that they do not harm the sensitivity of immigrants.
  1. It is also part of the Soros Plan to initiate political attacks against those countries that oppose immigration and to severely punish them.
  • Infobox: The main obstacles to the implementation of the Soros Plan are the governments that stand up for national independence and take measures against illegal migrants. Today, George Soros is unable to bring millions of immigrants to Europe because there are some governments that raise their voices against it. When the Hungarian government complies with the Schengen Agreement, when it protects the borders and builds a fence, it hampers the implementation of the Soros Plan. Soros and several Brussels decision-makers are therefore attacking our country. The European Commission proposes that Member States that do not participate in the resettlement program pay a fine of 78 million forints for each immigrant [they refuse] (2016/0133 COD). A Hungarian employee works decades for that amount of money.
October 1, 2017
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wrfree
Guest

‘Consultation?’ Not so. This is more like the ‘National Obfuscation’. A series of purposed bafflements from fearful battlements.

Member

Where are the questions? I see only statements.

Member

These “national consultations” are getting more and more idiotic. The first ones in 2012 and 2015 still attempted to keep up the appearance of questions and answers, even offering three or more answer options (even if some of the questions were formulated so that the answer which was obviously expected was the only sensible one). But here the authors of the “questionnaire” haven’t even bothered to think of potential answer options, they just present their propaganda statements in a form with which it is practically impossible to disagree. (Reminds me of the old story about an aggressive journalist interviewing a politician: “Have you already stopped beating your wife? And don’t try any tricks, I will only take “yes” or “no” for an answer.”)
Not even the “Two-Tailed Dogs” could anticipate the stupidity of this format, although they did their best. (“Should George Soros do ten push-ups right now? – Yes, and apologize. / No, I’ll do it for him.”)

Bowen
Guest

More and more idiotic.

Yes, and that’s how much respect Fidesz has for the general population in Hungary.

wrfree
Guest

Re: those questions

It simply assumes a led by the nose electorate. The ‘leaders’ must be losing great confidence in keeping the electorate hooked. Time for them to see through the game.

Observer
Guest

Bowen
Orban respects nobody and nothing: not the Pope, not the people, not the haloed traditions or the law, but one thing: superior threatening force. Such characters brazenly use their faithful for they are faithful, why waste more on them.
Idiotic as this propaganda is to us, it works with many. We live on a different planet here compared to the Hun countryside where people are less .. whatever, witness the recent village mob threats.

Ashgard
Guest

The Project Syndicate link leads to a 404 page. It would be very important to find another reference. Thank you!

Mihaly
Guest

At point 4 15.000 EUR is turned into 9.000.000 HUF. This is an exchange rate of 600 HUF per EUR. Maybe this will be the exchange rate after Fidesz wins the election in 2018. Otherwise it’s just like the other statements an explanation to the point that doesn’t add up.

Ferenc
Guest

The figures are correct (would be too stupid to be incorrect…):
“€15,000 [per asylum seeker] for each of the first two years” means total €30,000 equals 9 million HUF
The lies here are:
*”Brussels should force all EU Member States” (HU) against “the EU should provide” (Soros)
*”to pay each immigrant HUF 9 million in welfare payments” (HU) against “provide ‘2x €15,000’ per asylum-seeker… to help cover housing, health care, and education costs” – the last is in my opinion a base for a budget (or fund), while the first is clearly about paying individuals

Furthermore Soros wrote: “It can raise these funds by issuing long-term bonds using its largely untapped AAA borrowing capacity, which will have the added benefit of providing a justified fiscal stimulus to the European economy.”
The HU government writes in their ‘infobox’ about ‘loans’ [‘hitel’, bonds is ‘kötvények’, which most likely is considered a too controversial word…], raising of VAT and taxes [not a letter by Soros about these both!!]

Well I think this way the whole production by the HU government can be dissected as lie after lie after lie after lie, i.e.against ‘their own’ Fundamental Law, just get them to court for this!!

Mihaly
Guest

Of course you are right. I read 15.000 for two years (so 7.500 per year). I stopped thinking “to stupid to be true” in 2011 when it comes to the communication of Fidesz.

Ferenc
Guest

And if nobody wants to get the HU government to court:
-do something else really serious against this ‘consultation’ OR
-completely neglect this BS and concentrate on overwinning them in the coming elections!!

Joseph Forgas
Guest
The ‘national consultation’ is clearly nothing more than a dishonest, misleading and outrageous party political propaganda campaign at the taxpayers expense. This would not be possible in any properly functioning democracy, and any government behaving this way does not deserve the trust of the voters. On the other hand, it also must be said that George Soros’s opinion pieces which I read when they appeared were unfortunate and ill-judged in several respects. As any private citizen, he is entitled to air his views; but as a person in the public arena, his specific advice to the EU about what it should do about the migration crisis was rather ill-considered. Like many on the liberal side (and i count myself in that camp), on this issue there is a tendency to adopt a stance of moral posturing and high-handed prescriptions that ignore the pragmatic and political realities of the situation. Why? Because human beings are far from perfect creatures, and their attitudes towards outgroup members cannot changed so rapidly. Attitudes towards strangers have been shaped by our evolutionary past. In our ancestral environment, distrusting and disliking outgroups was a highly adaptive response conducive to group survival. These mental habits have not… Read more »
1956
Guest

Who knows the definition of “active measures” in Hungary.

Fast nobody.

This ignorance clears the path to the weaponization of Orban’s Hungary by Russia against the West.

Farkas
Guest
@Joseph Forgas Hear, hear! I do however have a caveat on the subject of welcoming genuine political refugees within our own local Australian context. Over the past few years, here in Australia we have begun to import substantial numbers of very genuine political asylum seekers from some pretty wild places like South Sudan and Somalia. These people had been essentially nomadic herdsmen or at best primitive peasants in their home countries, illiterate even in their own mother tongues, and in an era of automation and robotization it is hard to see how they could ever make their way in Australia, apart from remaining lifelong welfare wards. I therefore question the wisdom, viability and sustainability of resettling them here in Australia, as it is an open question as to how even the second or third or fourth generation could ever fit into Australian society at large, if at all. I fully recognize of course the overwhelming humanitarian need, but I think that generous help and assistance in their home countries would make a lot more sense than transplanting them into the – to them – utterly alien world of a very modern Australia, however welcoming to people fleeing persecution and other… Read more »
Observer
Guest

Kudos for both content and style.

Claudia
Guest
@Farkas The stereotypes in your comment are quite incredible: “wild” places like Sudan and Somalia? “Energetic and smart Asians” really? That only a “a doctor or scientist or computer professional from Syria” would make it in Australia?? Syrian peasant? illiterate Afghan youth? Somali herdsman? Can you pls tell me where you live? Because I have lived and travelled all over Australia (except NT and WA) and your description of both Australia and these “wild” people astounds me… You write about these “wild” Sudanese and Somalians being illiterate even in their own mother tongues…how can they make their way in Australia, well I can tell you I’ve met a few Sudanese and Somalians – not many- but they spoke pretty decent English! Do you really believe a 4th generation Sudanese wouldn’t be able to integrate/assimilate or “make their way in Australia”? We are talking about almost 300 years for the 4th generation not to go to school (school is compulsory in AU btw) or learn some English…hmm? And the “throngs of white people” in shopping centres you speak of? Sorry last time I was in a Westfield shopping centre, it was pretty ‘non-white’ if I can say that. Maybe there were… Read more »
Guest

Thanks for this, Claudia!
My granddaughter and her partner (both Germans in their late twenties) have been “traveling and working” in India, then Australia right now for over a year and sending back lovely pictures – now they’re in New Zealand …
And yes, it is a Multi-Kulti society just like Germany, Britain etc …

PS:
Funny coincidence: Her name is Claudia too! 🙂

Observer
Guest

Claudia

Too much PC in your comment:

The stereotypes you mention are just summarizing descriptions of certain groups of people, e.g. check out the illiteracy or crime rate in those places, read about, if not experience, the political or tribal violence in these places, the traditions and the social culture there (e.g. slavery in Mauritania and W.Sahara).
Your meeting some exceptions, doesn’t change the reality.

In view of the gulf separating these cultures from the European ones, the idea of integrating such masses seems extremely arrogant or foolhardy.
4th generation will definitely not be wild herdsmen, but this is 50 years from now. In the meantime WEurope is facing stubborn integration problems with 2nd and 3rd generations in migrants groups from much closer cultures (e.g. the Maghreb or even Turkey).

Ferenc
Guest

Observer, you gave a pretty unfair comment.
You rate repeated generalizations higher than real personal experiences.
Have any personal experiences with what you summarize as ‘the reality’?
On a personal level: you nor I could write and read when we were born, at an age of about 15 I could and in more than one language, hope the same for you. So in general, if there’s proper education for everybody, that’s the maximum of time it should take to overcome illiteracy.

PS: things are either correct, partly (in)correct, or incorrect, please don’t try to discredit other opinions by adding a P to it

Farkas
Guest

I think that Soros is whistling in the wind with his piece in Project Syndicate. The reason is that he is only addressing the minutiae of the “how,” while relegating the “why” to the effect of some weasel words at the end of his piece.

While the “why” is taken for granted by Soros, it is far from clear that there is any consensus about that “why” within the European Union. If there was consensus on the “why,” the implementation of the “how” would occur almost by way of an afterthought. However, in the absence of consensus on the “why,” the “how” is totally unimplementable.

Soros is in fact putting the cart before the horse in his piece in Project Syndicate. He should have instead been putting forward a powerful, cogent and persuasive case for an annual intake of one million would-be-migrants and refugees from the Third World by countries of the European Union.

And then, when he made his case, he could have supplied a number of bullet points about the financial aspects of the implementation issues, which would of course have still left the political and social aspects of the implementation open and problematic.

Farkas
Guest
The response of the Hungarian authorities to the Soros proposal re Thirld World immigration to Europe is hamfisted, over-the-top, and overall pretty pathetic. However, the defensive instincts of the Hungarian authorities are of course quite spot on, since the ideas of Soros as to how the world ought to be run is exactly the opposite of theirs, and unsurprisingly, they are out to protect their turf, however obsolete and wrong-footed that may be. Soros is a product of his experiences during the Hungarian Jewish Holocaust, his years as a student of Popper in London, his embrace of the Fabian Socialism of the London School of Economics, his family’s strong role in advancing Esperanto in Hungary, his total and utter committment to human rights as laid down in instruments of international law, his determination to make sure that political and social openness and transparency ultimately wins out against the despotisms and authoritarianisms of this world, and his genuine desire to be the midwife to not merely a more effective Capitalism, but to a Capitalism with a more human face. He considers nation states, particularly ethnically and linguistically based nation states such as those in Eastern Europe as dangerous anachronisms that should… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

Again a lot words (from Australia), but not so much about the subject at hand, so
-have you read the 2nd article as recommended by Eva?
-what’s your opinion about the ‘consultation’ itself?
PS: recommended to answer to the point…

Farkas
Guest

@Ferenc

I am not really interested in communicating with you or at your behest, Ferenc. Sorry, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. Too much heat and not enough light at your end for my liking.

Member
Cold Comfort from the Comfortable @Farkas’s postings are not unintelligent but they are systematically ambiguous, ethically. There is nothing whatsoever to fault, and much to admire, in George Soros’s views (even if, like everyone, he occasionally makes a mistake). The only thing more humane would be a more socialistic version of much the same agenda. (And it’s just as incorrect — if not downright silly — to aver that George Soros does not care about 3rd world despotism and brutality as it is to aver the same about Noam Chomsky. Their discourse is directed primarily at the prosperous and powerful: First things first…) But this is not about the obvious virtues of George Soros but about the equally obvious (and bottomless) vices of Viktor Orban. What on earth is there in his outrageous and sinister campaign of systematic police-state slander that inspires commentators to advert instead to the victim’s occasional peccadillo? Pedantry? Moral cecity? Or just “let them eat brioche” obtuseness? (And, for that matter — and this is addressed more to my friend Joe Forgas — is Orban’s flagrant, cynical and self-serving exploitation of Hungarians’ vicious and visceral multiple-offender xenophobia really the context for reflecting on the limits of… Read more »
Farkas
Guest

@Stevan Hernad

Am I supposed to be upset with your sarcasm and calling me names? Let me assure you that I am not. A hőbörgésed és csapkodásod ide oda and your inability to address the points raised in a reasonable manner and without resorting to ad hominem tactics only reflects on yourself.

Farkas
Guest

@Stevan Hernad

And in any case, sneering, disdain and condescension are not necessarily the best tactic for persuading others of the rightness of your position.

Guest

@Farkas:
It’s funny in a way when a newcomer tries to take over this site – maybe you should read more here to get a feeling about Prof Balogh and her “followers”?
We don’t like trolls and similar actors …

Observer
Guest

Stevan

“..the context for reflecting on the limits of cultural assimilability” IS in fact the “Hungarians’ vicious and visceral multiple-offender xenophobia” flagrantly, cynically exploited and fanned by the malicious if idiotic Orban propaganda. Your words.

The unpleasant reality sets a range, limits to feasible action and, as J.Forgacs and others remind , acting outside those is ineffective, futile or counterproductive.

The mass migration pressure, together with other ones, may easily break the EU and the democracies. Good intentions and wishes divorced from reality are harmful in politics, their are worse than sins, they are mistakes.

Member

@Observer, I often agree with you but I’m afraid this time I cannot: There is a time and a place for everything, but when and where a would-be despot is (successfully) hate-mongering against migrants is not the time or place to debate whether 2% of his irrational ranting might have some rationally defensible basis. It’s the time to push back against his whole odious M.O.

(Ditto with conspiracy theorists and trolls: it is counterproductive, and playing into their hands, to be drawn into debating the very occasional half-truths that they invariably weave into their repugnant rhetoric.)

I would discuss the problem of the limits of cultural assimilability with good-faith interlocutors (like George Soros), in a global context: not when a 10-fillér backwater bandit is shamelessly fanning the flames of local native xenophobia.

Observer
Guest

Stevan

The ignominies of this mafia rule are not the issue here , but the tactics in the political strugle where more often than not the purity of moral principles may have to be diluted in order to put the issue on the table and eventually win some points too.
To keep the balance between the desirable and the possible is politics, I leave the ethics and philosophy debates to those better qualified.

GirbeGurba
Guest

“most people do have legitimate concerns about uncontrolled, undocumented migration” – indeed, but when did Soros, or even the “left-liberal parties,” support “uncontrolled, undocumented migration”?

Aida
Guest

Do not go there. That is what made us lose to the Brexit mob.

Observer
Guest

Josef Forgacs

Hear, hear!
Too many naives, misguided liberals, doctrinaires or simply starry eyed enthusiasts who fail to grasp the nature of politics. They overcook and spoil the stew, so nobody likes it, witness the demise of the SZDSZ and the slump in the liberal parties in Europe.

The world is facing a period of rapid changes, accelerating development, technological gaps, climate change population explosion, etc. in this frame the West is in a crisis, a numbing toothache which will become acute and turn to abscess if not treated. The migration pressure caused by the climate change, the population explosion in Africa, the economic divergence, etc will continue and the Wilkommenpolitik is no solution, dare I say – not a sin, but worse – a mistake.
I have challenged many to offer solutions to, e.g. the problem associated with population growth where some would have 400 grandchildren, got only slogans and wishes for a magic wand.

(On these I highly recommend Thomas Friedman’s brilliant book Thank you for being late)

Claudia
Guest
@joseph forgas I want to point out that Australia is an island, and so being “girt by sea” means arrivals can be very easily monitored. However the problem with that approach anyway – hypothetically/morally/ethically/politically, is that you’re essentially outsourcing the processing of asylum seekers to third party countries (sadly usually poorer, developing countries) which has the double problem of i) leaving asylum seekers in pretty poor conditions (like in malaysia, indonesia etc) while they wait for processing which of course then makes them want to jump onto a boat/plane and continue to elsewhere and, ii) assuming that every country can find another country to process it’s asylum applications. One more thing – the way that you have phrased Australian Govt policy above is misleading for most readers here: “to stop and discourage undocumented spontaneous migration” and, “spontaneous and undocumented migration ” The impetus for the tough policy stance of recent times was not to stop “spontaneity” or “undocumented” but was specifically in response to asylum seekers arriving by boat – there were several incidences of un-seaworthy boats being used to transport asylum seekers to Australia and consequently many died on the journey. It is nothing similar to what is happening… Read more »
Michael Kaplan
Guest

Orban knows that Mr. Soros has not written what is attributed to him. This is the big lie strategy, now common in my “adopted” country, the USA. This is no more a consultation than the obfuscation commented on below.

Ferenc
Guest
My suggestion: Get the individual people and the legal entities responsible for this ‘National Consultation’ to court, e.g.for lying to all the people being send this, behaving anti-democratic and therefore not obeying the Fundamental Law! Some relevant items in the Fundamental Law: intro: “We hold that democracy is only possible where the State serves its citizens and administers their affairs in an equitable manner, without prejudice or abuse.” B.1: “Hungary shall be an independent, democratic rule-of-law State.” IX.2: “Hungary shall recognise and protect the freedom and diversity of the press, and shall ensure the conditions for free dissemination of information necessary for the formation of democratic public opinion.” In relation to the ‘happenings in Ocseny’ and the reactions by representatives of the central government (e.g.LJ and OV), it should be seriously checked if these representatives with their reactions were acting within the law. Here under listed some, in my opinion relevant to this case, items of (again) the Fundamental Law: intro: “We hold that human existence is based on human dignity.” intro: “We hold that we have a general duty to help the vulnerable and the poor.” intro: “We hold that the common goal of citizens and the State is… Read more »
Mihaly
Guest

Since Hungary doesn’t have a court that would ever accept a case against Fidesz politicians, this cannot happen. In line with your proposal I would like to see the European parliament asking Orban and Rogan to explain this in an open session. As bullshit as it is, the Soros plan is a very serious allegation against the rest of Europe. If you think about it, the government of Hungary states that a huge part of the politicians in the EU is corrupt (“paid agents of Soros”) and that they are executing a plan to destroy Christian Europe.
Actually it cannot be possible that this doesn’t have to be explained by Orban to the rest of Europe. Not only is it unacceptable to make this kind of accusations, the damage it will do when it remains unanswered can’t be underestimated either. There are plenty of “Breitbard readers” all over Europe who will believe this.

Ferenc
Guest

Therefore the best is if a.s.a.p.OV&Co have to defend ‘their production’ before a judge, in HU or in the EU, wherever!!
If this will/can/don’t want to be done, THEN best completely neglect it, not a letter spend more on it!!
… and concentrate on overwinning ‘them’ 2018.April!!

Guest

These “infoboxes” are straight out of “1984” !

I’m sure there will be many works written on how stupid a government can get …

Lie, evil lies, infoboxes …

Guest
PROPOSAL FOR A NATIONAL CONSULTATION ON THE PUTIN PLAN 1. The Putin plan is to reestablish Russian supremacy in all the previous Sovjet dominions including Hungary. Infobox: Putin has declared that the break-up of the Sovjet Union was the largest geopolitical disaster of the last century. 2. Together with officials in Hungary, Putin has taken active steps to gain full controll over energy supply in Hungary. Indfobox: The Hungarian prime minister has in secrecy made an agrement with Putin which binds Hungary to invest huge amounts of money, borrowed at a high interest rate from Russian banks, in Russian nuclear power generation technology. Notwithstanding that electricity can be generated cheaper by wind and sunlight.. 3. One part of the Putin plan is to infiltrate Hungary with a multitude of Russian agents and establish close cooperation between the security services of Hungary and Russia by offering Russian data handling and storage capacity to Hungarian secret services and other government agencies. Infobox: This way Russian secret services has gained uncontrolled access to personal information on Hugarian citizens. 4. Based on the Putin plan the Russian state mafia shall bring all criminal organisations in the former Sovejet dominions, including Hungary, under control. Infobox:… Read more »
wrfree
Guest

Surely the Russian vortex has sucked in the Magyar state. Pretty soon it will come to a point of no return where Magyar ‘sovereignity’ will be a wisp in the imagination.
Freedom will go poof into a lifeless black hole.

Observer
Guest

Love it.

Aida
Guest

Well, what beats all this is the report in Nepszava that Botka has quit. He made some thoroughly unhelpful comments in his explanation for doing what he did. I think he may have found the task beyond him. Who knows what VO threatened to reveal about him, true or not.

My concern is that the seemingly perpetual rule by VO and his Mafia is seen as yet another example by Hungarians of Hungarians being victims of whatever. Trianon, Mafia, EU, Soros, oligarchs, socialism, capitalism, fascism, poverty, world conflict, globalisation and so on. I do not advocate violence as a political force. I just note the sharp contrast between the obsequious Hungarians and the spunky Catalans wanting their freedom from Spain. If people want outside help they should demonstrate their desire for change and that they deserve it. The Catalan cause will find support. In most of Europe most people probably would not piss on the Hungarians if they were on fire.

Marty
Guest
I got the answer. Levente Papa (formerly of Együtt) called attention to an interesting condition. I asked a few days ago here why cannot parties agree on one single joint candidate opposing the Fidesz candidate in each of the 106 electoral districts (for the local district vote) but otherwise set up separate party lists so that voters could vote for their preferred party lists with their party list vote? The answer is that it is very difficult because in order for a party to set up national party list (so that voters may be able to cast their party list vote at all for that party) such party must have at least 27 local candidates in 9-10 counties. Since there are only 106 districts only three “lists” can agree on the single candidates in each districts. Jobbik will have one list for sure and DK said that it will have a separate list. And then there is MSZP. No other party may agree on a joint candidate – which means that other opposition parties must have their local candidates running, creating a natural competition to a potential Jobbik-DK-MSZP coordinated project. Since LMP and Momentum will also have separate lists and… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

Another thing clarifying why the current electoral system is less fair and more undemocratic than the previous one.
Hajra Közös Ország Mozgalomhttps://kozosorszagmozgalom.hu/en/

Ferenc
Guest

OT – the story behind the Star on the T-shirtcomment image
Siewert András (of Migration Aid): “At the village meeting in Őcsény, I asked the villagers how they would recognize that those arriving in their village were refugees or a German Muslim family as tourists. Someone came up with, that the refugees would get a yellow star. The historical background to this is that, in Nazi Germany, from the 30s, this star had to be worn by the Jews so that they could be noticed on the street. Many have criticized why I mix the two things. I do not mix, I just want to draw attention to the fact that the style of Hungarian discourse has been spooky in the style of the 30s Germany. My grandfather was a German Wehrmacht soldier, because of my family line I was sufficiently sensitive to the subject.”

Full interview (Hungarian only) at http://migrationaid.org/sirtak-az-onkentesek-sirtak-a-menekultek/
A few here have made objections to the usage of the Star in this case, well I stick to my earlier comments and #Stand with Migration Aid!!

Farkas
Guest

@Ferenc

And continue to raise objections. Vociferously. This piece of cheap agitprop shows astonishing insensitivity to the memory of the hundreds of thousands of innocent victims who are continued to be mourned by the Jewish people to this day, a gratuitous, revolting and sickening insult showing complete ignorance of the horrific history of that badge of shame and stigma, and overall a disgusting performance by a bunch of low-lifes, and never mind their otherwise good works with refugees accepted for asylum in Hungary. Words are cheap, and Siewert’s unctious disclaimers on sensitivity are belied by his actions.

Ferenc
Guest

“vociferously”
Thanks for making that clear the start of your comment, so I could protect my ears in time… before reading the rest you wrote.
Your words feel too aggressive, to be really in memory and honor of the victims of the symbol at hand.

PS1: I have consulted people who have direct family connection to the usage of the star and they didn’t object in this case.
PS2: google “migration aid csillag” and you’ll see who jumped up… in arms / armed…

tappanch
Guest

A. The anti-Soros campaign is a cynical brainwashing tool of the ruling party of thieves.

B. Botka has accused others in MSzP to be Orban’s agents. All right, but is Botka an Orban agent as well? Can Orban buy everybody in Hungary and beyond?

How much of the cca 28 billion [check the number] euros the EU sent to Hungary in the last 7 years ended up in the private accounts of the Orban gang? A third of it is almost 9 billion euros. Compare it with Soros’s estimated wealth, which is 20 billion euros.

C. The Hungarian government has shed the vestiges of democracy by forcibly and unlawfully removing Simicska’s anti-Orban ads from billboards.

D. Da’esh has called the Las Vegas mass murderer, the wealthy retired Stephen Paddock his soldier, “Abu Abd El Bar”. Was he a recent convert to Islam?

E. The demise of European democracy started in Hungary in 2010, continued in Poland, and yesterday the Spanish government chose the same path in Catalonia.

Ferenc
Guest

Re-E
Instead of Spain now, which has very little to do with HU and PL, I would wait 3 weeks, till the elections in Czech are done, and see what changes this will give there…

tappanch
Guest

Remark to D.

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr was a Sunni scholar of the Maliki jurisprudence (978-1071).
He died near Valencia, in the town of Xàtiva (in Catalonian) or Játiva (in Spanish, ie. Castilian)

tappanch
Guest

The Battle of Almansa was one of the most decisive engagements of the War of the Spanish Succession
fought on 25 April 1707.

The Bourbon army of about 25,000 was composed of Spanish and French troops in equal proportion,
as well as an Irish regiment. Opposing them was a mainly Anglo-Portuguese force with strong
Dutch, German, and French Huguenot elements.

After the Bourbon victory, he city of Xàtiva was burned,
In memory of these events, nowadays the portrait of the monarch still hangs
upside down in the local museum of L’Almodí.

Barcelona surrendered to the Spanish Bourbon king on September 11, 1714.

The Bourbon king, determined to punish what he saw as sedition from Catalonia and Valencia
established the Nueva Planta decree (1716), abolishing the Catalan constitutions.

tappanch
Guest

To summarise my brainstorm,
Las Vegas massacre —> Da’esh —-> Xativa —-> oppression of Catalunya

Since Da’esh released its statement in Arabic, then Spanish, then in English, I assume that a Spanish convert works in its propaganda department.

Marty
Guest

tappanch: the Vegas guy is as white and Christian as one can get.

Pls. don’t make up non-existent connections to Islam or Arabic terrorists – Fidesz will make up those even if there’s no connection.

Stop being terrified and seeing Islamists everywhere. This is exactly what Orban (or Netanyahu in Israel) wants.

Given the 2nd amendment in the US these things will continue. If anything people will purchase more guns because they will be afraid that there will be restrictions imposed although they are never imposed and they basically cannot be imposed under the current US legal regime.

Guest

To underline this:
The shares of the largest weapon manufacturers (one of them is (in)famous Smith&Wesson, now under a new name …) in the USA immediately jumped up around 5% …
Can anyone imagine what might have happened if the rednecks at that concerts had brought their weapons with them?
Horrible!

Ferenc
Guest

My arguments for getting those responsible for this ‘consultation’ in front of a judge:
1.they are already fully prepared to defend (with more lies) their production (and use it afterwards in the propaganda before the elections)
2.inside national as well as EU institutions they can lie whatever they want, without any or at maximum very limited consequences
3.don’t know if they are fully prepared for defending their production in court
4.court preparations will take a lot of effort from themselves and their organizations (this should harm their propaganda preparations for the coming elections)
5.have strong doubts if they can get away with / keep up their lies in court (so if convicted/plead guilty/withdraw lies aka.consultation, this should be big blow to them)

Guest

Here is the “official” reaction of Soros via the Financial Times:
https://bbj.hu/politics/soros-spokesperson-rejects-claims-in-national-consultation_139648
Of course it won’t help – many Hungarians, especially Fideszniks, are immune to any kind of logic or truth or reason …

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