Launching a new action plan, “Stop Soros”

In an article that was written yesterday but appeared only today in the early morning edition of Magyar Idők, the well-informed government paper reported that “an action plan is being formulated against George Soros and his network.” This action plan necessitates amendments to already existing laws. The paper got wind of two such impending legal changes. One would allow the assessment of dues or levies on nonprofit organizations that “support migration.” The other action that needed a legal basis was banning George Soros’s entry into Hungary. According to Magyar Idők, the government sought a way to ban dual citizens who pose a national security risk to the country. Zoltán Lomnici, Jr., a far-right so-called constitutional lawyer whose opinions are almost always legal nonsense, suggested a solution that would allow the expulsion of dangerous dual citizens who live abroad on a permanent basis. The other expert to whom Magyar Idők turned for his opinion was Ágoston Sámuel Mráz, director of the pro-government Nézőpont Institute. Mráz is a great deal more intelligent than Lomnici. He opined that the proposed law is “only a symbolic defense instrument.” In brief, it is a propaganda ploy serving domestic political purposes in preparation for the election to be held on April 8.

If Mráz is correct, I’m afraid the Orbán government is assuming a great deal of risk in the international arena with this proposed piece of legislation. After a cabinet meeting this afternoon, the Hungarian government released an article in English on the official website of the Prime Minister’s Office, About Hungary. Here are the most important provisions of these bills:

  1. Every organization that supports illegal immigration by using foreign financial resources would be registered and obliged to report on its activity.
  2. A tax would be imposed on the foreign funding of organizations supporting illegal immigration. This public income would be invested in border protection.
  3. It would be possible to issue restraining orders against those who take part in organizing illegal immigration. In essence, such restraining orders would apply in any area that is within 8 kilometers of the Schengen border. In special cases, a third-country citizen would be subject to a restraining order anywhere within Hungary. This measure would remain in force until the end of the migration crisis.

It is instructive to compare this English text, obviously intended for foreign consumption, with the one Index published in Hungarian.

  1. Every organization that supports illegal immigration by using foreign financial resources would be registered and obliged to report on its activity.
  2. Over and above the registration, those organizations that receive more money from abroad than from Hungary will be obliged to pay 25% of their support as a levy. The money will be collected by the National Tax Authority. If the organizations don’t fulfill their duties, the prosecutor’s office must take action against them. If the prosecutor’s office finds unauthorized activity, it will appeal to the court.
  3. A new kind of restraining order will be introduced: implicated foreign nationals will be barred from Hungary while Hungarian citizens will not be able cross an eight-kilometer border zone next to the Schengen borders.

During a joint interview given by Interior Minister Sándor Pintér and Undersecretary Zoltán Kovács, who is in charge of communication, a few more bits of information were dropped. For example, to my astonishment I discovered that those NGOs that are guilty of assisting illegal migrants will have to “acknowledge their complicity on their own.” If they fail to do so, they will be sanctioned. So, if I understand it correctly, the whole scheme is based on self-incrimination. I’m therefore not surprised that some people believe that the government has no intention of actually adopting these measures.

As far as the banning of George Soros from Hungary is concerned, it seems that the government thought the better of it. In fact, to my great surprise, Pintér announced that “George Soros doesn’t carry out illegal migration activities,” and therefore he has nothing to fear. However, Kovács added that if he ever does so, the law will apply to him just as it does to everyone else. The report published by Eurobserver claimed that “UN personnel and diplomats would not fall under the possible restraining order, and MPs who have reason to be in the area will also not be excluded from the border zone.”

The targeted NGOs, such as the Hungarian Helsinki Committee and TASZ, the Hungarian Civil Liberties Union, charged that these proposals are not only confusing but also most likely unconstitutional. They go against past rulings of the European Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Justice. I’m no lawyer, but Orbán’s own Basic Law guarantees the free movement of citizens anywhere in the country.

I know that Orbán and his minions are too young to have lived through the Rákosi era, when Hungary had so-called “border zone” (határsáv) along the Yugoslav and Austrian borders, but still they ought to know that the comparison will be inevitable. In those days a special permit was required to enter this restricted zone. Most of the peasants who were forcibly removed from their villages, stripped of all their possessions, and deported to the Hortobágy region of the Great Plains came from villages inside the zone. The word “határsáv” has a very bad ring to it.

In the opinion of the spokesman of TASZ, it is also illegal to impose dues on money received from abroad because one cannot make a distinction between monies from domestic and non-domestic sources. I’m also sure that as the proposals are put into more final form, legal experts will offer even more criticism.

Some commentators think that Assistant Undersecretary Kristóf Altusz’s embarrassing revelation to the Times of Malta and the subsequent fallout at home prompted this latest “Stop Soros” action. The new action is, they argue, an attempt to divert attention from what someone called “the Orbán government’s Őszöd,” referring to Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány’s speech to the MSZP parliamentary caucus in 2006 in which he admitted that, although they knew about the sad state of the economy, they kept it a secret because of the forthcoming national election.

Altusz, in response to insistent questioning about Hungary’s refusal to admit any refugees,  blurted out that “last year alone Hungary took about 1,300 refugees, but, very often, such cases were not publicized by the government as it could put the beneficiaries in danger.” For more than two years the Orbán government sought to convince the Hungarian people that it wouldn’t allow a single migrant to settle in Hungary, and now it turns out that 1,300 “Muslim invaders,” to use Viktor Orbán’s words from his recent interview with Das Bild, have received shelter in Hungary.

One family among those who received asylum in Hungary

The Orbán government is building its entire election campaign on the migrant issue, and now it seems that, after all, there is a difference between illegal migrants and refugees, as Altusz explained. Moreover, the argument that a refugee must settle in the closest safe country is now in tatters. The government just admitted in an indirect way that Hungary is obliged by the Geneva Convention to give shelter to refugees, even from faraway Iraq, Syria, or Afghanistan.

Hungarians have heard nothing else in the last two or three years but how dangerous these people are; they are terrorists who will kill them and rape their daughters. Just recently, Orbán ordered mayors to organize resistance to settling nonexistent migrants in their cities. And now we learn that the government, behind the frightened people’s backs, allowed 1,300 of these dangerous people to settle in their country. The overeager Kristóf Altusz delivered a serious blow to a carefully crafted political construct and rallying cry.

If Viktor Orbán decided to launch the “Stop Soros” campaign in order to divert attention from this uncomfortable slip by a junior diplomat, I think he is making a mistake. These issues touch upon the very essence of European Union values. To flout them for the sake of an electoral victory, which everybody predicts will be his, is foolhardy.

January 17, 2018
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Member

Intriguing that the Times of Malta considered Altusz’s “revelation” so inconsequential that the author put the information near the bottom of the article. In Hungary, where such information should be public, it became the top news.

The link to the article: https://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20180110/world/hungarian-junior-minister-we-do-not-want-to-be-the-eus-black-sheep.667572

bimbi
Guest

@Alex Kuli, 3:33 a.m.

Thank you for the Times of Malta web address. Both the article and comments are very revealing with the usual untruths and misunderstandings well in evidence.

Back in Hungary, the threat of yet more law changes to suit the situation indicate that either Orbán is desperate for his election win or he has allowed his extreme paranoia to override rationality in proposing these crazy, vindictive and unconstitutional new laws (or both!).

It is a sad country that is headed by a petty, vindictive, selfish, grasping and unprincipled “leader”.

pantanifan
Guest

“It is a sad country that is headed by a petty, vindictive, selfish, grasping and unprincipled “leader”.”
It seems to me there are two main types of politicians/government leaders: those that talk about “values” and those that only have “interests”.
The problem with “value” politicians comes when they want to impose their own values on others at all costs (e.g. US in Iraq) and the problem with “interest” politicians is that their interests are often personal interests (i.e. unscrupulous, corrupt behaviour) rather than the country’s interests … ?

Guest

What I found really funny – the sentence before the last:
Hungary is open to debate and we do not fear change just like the media law that was amended six times since 2011.
Altusz thinks this is something positive – while to any sane person this is a sign that Hungarian lawmakers don’t know what they’re doing! Or as I used to write on the late but great politics.hu re Fidesz lawmaking:
A new law every day keeps sanity away!

Is Altusz really as crazy already as he sounds (like the older Fidesz nomenklatura) or is he just trying to find some “logical” explanations for their idiocies because he gets paid for this?
I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes …

Tyrker
Guest

“I know that Orbán and his minions are too young to have lived through the Rákosi era, when Hungary had so-called “border zone” (határsáv) along the Yugoslav and Austrian borders, but still they ought to know that the comparison will be inevitable. In those days a special permit was required to enter this restricted zone.”

Actually this was not only the case during the Rákosi regime, but also through much of the Kádár era as well – at least along the Austrian border. The border zone was quite wide, 50km, if I’m not mistaken. You could enter the zone – there are many towns there including Sopron, Kőszeg, Körmend, Szombathely and Szentgotthárd – but you still had to have a special permit to do so.

And even if you did have a permit, you were not fully free to get around in the border zone. Towards the end of the seventies, we visited the village of Velem on an organised tour. When we went up to the local St Vid Chapel, we were escorted by a soldier/border-guard wielding a gun.

Observer
Guest

IMO the restricted entry border zone was 5-10km, but some roads and communities were included even if they were farther.
The surveilance zone was no more than 2km.

wrfree
Guest

Re: that ‘border zone’

Just to add if you were a kulfoldi they wouldn’t care so much about you going east. I can recall when going ‘west’ but still in the country it was ‘check in check out’ of the police stations. You’d meet some ‘interesting people. Did everything by the book. ’Utlevel’ was in my head for the week.

They gave you the once/twice over. Someone said to me that they were always concerned of people trying to ‘go west’.

Guest

Thanks for telling us that Fidesz is just the Communists (mixed in with a little National Socialism …) in disguise!
What about some Horthy ideas in addition?
Fidesz thinks he was great so why not follow him – you know, women not allowed to vote, people in the villages needing to ask thie landowner if they wanted to move etc …
Hungary will soon be 100 years behind the civilised world!

Tyrker
Guest
Fidesz do seem to be borrowing ideas from Kádár, Rákosi and Horthy, although they do not have a coherent ideology – just a “mafia state” as Bálint Magyar put it. Your assumption that women were not allowed to vote during the Horthy era is incorrect, though. Election law did change a lot throughout the interwar period and suffrage wasn’t universal, but there was no such thing as a total exclusion of women from the voting process. In 1920, all men above 24 who had held Hungarian citizenship for at least 6 years and lived in the same settlement for at least 6 months had a right to vote. The same applied to women above 24, the difference being that women were explicitly required to be literate. At that election, there was secret ballot too, and the 1920 elections also saw the first woman being elected as a Member of Parliament. In 1922, this election law – technically, a prime ministerial decree – was modified in a way that restricted suffrage (for both men and women, but more so for women) and partially backtracked on the secret ballot too. This decree became law in 1925. In 1938, the secret ballot was… Read more »
Guest

Tyrker, you’re really funny again, but thanks anyway for those details – but what was the reason?
I did not wirite that women were not allowed to vote at all …
This selective discrimination of women that you describe in detail sounds like typical Fidesz politics too, no logic, no respect, no equality.
Just like the “Jew laws” under Horthy!
Hope you enjoy life in your illiberal democracy!

Tyrker
Guest

“What about some Horthy ideas in addition?
Fidesz thinks he was great so why not follow him – you know, women not allowed to vote”

This was the part of your comment I was replying to.

BTW, you may not realise this, but we see eye-to-eye when it comes to the overall harmfulness of Fidesz. I’ve never been a supporter of theirs (oh, hang on, I was – back in 1994 when they were a liberal party). It’s just your knowledge of Hungarian history that needs a bit of brushing up . which is fine given that you’re German.

Guest

You don’t need to know all the details of the Horthy laws or the equally crazy Fidesz laws to see that there is unreasonable discrimination!
I remember many Fidesz laws from the last 10 years which were pushed through parliament in a day or so and had to be changed again and again because they contradicted themselves or even the constitution.
And you always sound like a Fidesz apologist – often hiding important facts in your reasoning, at least that’s my experience here!
But as I wrote before that can be funny – though you may see it differently …

Ferenc
Guest

Official asylum figures for Hungary 2016 and 2017:
-registered asylum applications: 2016 = 29.432 / 2017 = 3.397 [-89%]
-granted refugee status: 2016 = 154 / 2017 = 106 [-31%]
-granted “subsidiary protection”*: 2016 = 271 / 2017 = 1110 [+310%]

*”subs.protection” means less protection than refugee status, and protection in 2016 considerably reduced
see https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-legal-amendments-Apr-June-2016.pdf
data 2016: https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-figures-1-January-2017.pdf
data 2017: https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-figures-1-January-2018.pdf

Ferenc
Guest
This whole “anti-illegal-immigration” plan is nothing more than a part of OV&Co’s election campaign. OV&Co know they can not gain any votes from ‘democratic parties’, so try to seduce Jobbik supporters* by coming up with measures, which even Jobbik might question. So far this is leading to a “how low can you” game between them (all over the back, heads and hearts of people in need). The best thing to happen in this case is, unfortunately, that these two parties will continue that way, more and more of their supporters will get so disgusted that they’ll reconsider their support. Then it’s up to the other (democratic) parties to get those people supporting/voting for them. *supporting the seduction is Hirado’s Jan.17 article “Would Vona like to make room for immigration today?” – https://www.hirado.hu/belfold/belpolitika/cikk/2018/01/17/vona-ma-mar-teret-engedne-a-bevandorlasnak/ PS1: another part of the campaign very likely is that OV&Co can accuse other parties and organizations (domestic and international) of being “pro-illegal immigration”, but I doubt if that will win them any votes PS2: officially OV&Co can only go against “illegal immigration”, they leave it to their GONGO’s and media to use the words they really have in mind (but can not use, as against their own… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

just check yesterday’s M1 news, guess which wording they use…:
“akar ki is lehet tiltani a bevandorlas szervezoit”
even possible to ban organizers of immigration
“25% illetek kell fizetni… pld.a Soros halozatbol erkezo jutatat utan”
have to pay 25% levy… e.g.about money received from ‘Soros-network’

These are words on public/state media; ‘forgot’ the word “illegal”; target levy direct to ‘Soros-network’, great great great journalism, how more fake can you go…

PS: M1 mentioned all above based on “results of Nat.Consultation”, in report was shown some processing of the NC paperwork; all without showing any faces of the workers, curious if aybody can get to talk with some of the workers (?) in the video (to check if really happened as was tried to indicate)

Observer
Guest

EUR 1.22 billion is the bonds’ value.
The FEES pocketed by Rogan & co are EUR ~200 million,
175 million brokers’ fees + 17.5 million legal fees, absolutely fantastic for a risk free doing nothing.
(No precise figures have been revealed, above is the result of the known 3500 bond buyers paying avr 50k brokers’ fees + 5k legal fee.)

bimbi
Guest

@Observer, 11:27 a.m.

I understood from somewhere that the number of residence bonds sold was ~ 20,000, which at Euro 60,000 each would work out at 1,2 Billion Euro in fees… …but I stand to be corrected – can we rely on Mr. Rogan to tell us? Yuck, Yuck.

Who knows?

bimbi
Guest

@Ferenc, 5:52 a.m.

Does mean then that “poor” ol’ Rogan will have to pay 25% of the 1.2 Billion Euros that were collected on his behalf as his “agency fees” for his massive immigration programme for border defence now? If this goes on, they will be coming clean on their off-shore bank accounts soon…

Observer
Guest

bimbi
With the “most transparent government” (no joke, the thief in chief said it) we never know.
I’m being conservative – bonds 3659 x 50k fee, which was said to be 50-60k. I have seen the bonds sold figure of 17009 as well, which totals EUR 935 million, but the misappropriation of 200 will do the job if justice is to be served one day.

http://nepszava.hu/cikk/1122984-letelepedesi-biznisz—tallai-elarulta-hany-kotvenyt-adtak-el

Member

New US ambassador to Hgary, David Cornstein, mother born in Hgary, businessman, jewelry, horse-racing (!), grandfather. Not an unsympathetic personality (based on 2013 interview) but no Andrew Goodfriend…

Xavier
Guest

I’m pretty sure Orban will be able to dazzle this guy. Cornstein at one point was also a client of the late Arthur Finkelstein. The thing with people like Cornstein is that they are vain and think of themselves as infallible geniuses. They are probably not stupid at all but they lack real interest in their jobs (Cornstein is on an extended holiday so he doesn’t care about diplomacy or Hungary) and of course they have zero experience in dealing with much more politically experienced types like Orban. The guy will probably will not even realize but Orban will fool him. But more substantively Cornstein and Orban probably think alike about many things including illegal migration and liberal Jews like Soros. I’m sure Orban is quite happy. Orban only has to wait as time is always on the side of an autocrat. Sooner or later people in democratic systems go and instead somebody sympathetic or just stupid will appear. Orban outstays all of his ‘adversaries’.

Guest

And Jewish too?

wrfree
Guest

Looks a savvy ‘up from the NYC streets’ kid has made it with pluck and making opportunities for himself and has become a rich man.

Previously soap operas were an interest with our ambassador. Now here we have jewelry, OTB ( ‘off track’ betting of horses) and beauty salons. Let’s see if that helps the ‘transatlantic partnership’. 😎

It was a nice sedate feel-good ‘puff ball’ interview. It will be interesting to see how the ‘New Yorker’ in him comes out when and if he’s in for a chat in the Viktor/Zsolt/Pete/Zoli lion den. If the politics don’t work out they can be assured of getting watches, rings and earrings on discount.

Ferenc
Guest

OT
http://www.police.hu/hirek-es-informaciok/nyilvanos-korozesek#
follow links mentioned and you’ll be surprised (or not) what to find…
=>Elfogatóparancs alapján körözött személyek
=>Keresési feltételek – Keresendő érték:
search: Gorka

explanation/translation: wanted since 2016.Sep.17 for “misuse of firearms or ammunition” (seems to have happened in 2009 acc.number of registry)

Note: 2017.March minister Sz.Petike met and spoke with the ‘wanted person’

Source: https://444.hu/2018/01/18/szijjarto-ugy-talalkozott-gorka-sebestyennel-washingtonban-hogy-a-ferfit-itthon-elfogatoparancs-alapjan-korozik
PS: flabbergasted, why only now this reached the media?????
could this have anything to do with new US ambassador (see above)????

Istvan
Guest
I honestly do not understand why Soros continues to maintain his Hungarian dual nationality when it has been institutionally used by Fidesz as a vote generator and as a profit center in marketing EU citizenship. The US does not recognize dual nationality and it constitutes a legal basis for the denial of security clearances in our federal system. I agree with Eva this entire effort by Fidesz to legislate Soros out of existence in Hungary will likely not add up to much. I agree with Soros about many things, but he is also a profound hypocrite when it comes to his endless denunciations of US exercising military power globally. Like many on the liberal left, he materially has benefited from the Bretton Woods system and its evolution, yet will not recognize how US enforced it through military power both overt and covert. Without the internationalization of banking has been the emergence of international banking consortia Soros would have never made his billions. The US dollar remains the global benchmark and billionaires like Soros keep the vast amount of their wealth in dollars to this day. Soros has his own profound level of arrogance and in my opinion a real lack… Read more »
Observer
Guest

Istvan
The above “would have..if not for the …” are pretty weak, you know better.
There have been financial heavies for 2500 + years, most of them without any military power – Phoenicians and Romans, Florence’s and Siena’s Bardi and Medici, then Fuger, Rothchild, etc. etc. with a great involvement by the Jews.

Jean P
Guest

Orban is the leader and his will is obeyed without questioning in all the well bribed levels of the Fidesz hierachy. That is what the Fideszniks are acquainted with and in their imagination they have made Soros the head of a similar hierarchy. Everybody who share Soros ideas are under his command and are payed by him. This is an illusion.

Observer
Guest

The whole mess with – not a single migrant, but 1200 and 20 000+, the farce with the nonexistent Soros plan, the nonexistent “organizers of illegal immigration”, the ASZ financial assault, now this parody,
this is the tightening of the screws by the “fascist light” regime going “standard fascist”.
The similarities are inescapable: restricted/closed border/zones, arrest/intimidation of the media/humanitarian helpers, the required self flagelation/incrimination (confess, we know everything?), the state deciding who of the dissidents are guilty (remember: I decide who is a Jew).

In the mean time the leaders of the (still) democratic countries are playing the fiddle…
I’m afraid that before the “Muslim hordes” extinguish the European way of life, the fascists will.

Ferenc
Guest

OT – student demonstration
A thing to watch out for tomorrow will be the student demonstration named “Ne Menj Suliba” [Don’t Go to School], organized by the “Diákparlament” [independent student parliament] at 16hr near the HU parliament.
Info about event at https://www.facebook.com/events/402047256864141/
(currently 12.000 people signed to go and a further 37.000 are interested)

PS: don’t know about other cities, but there could be more locations, think in university cities

Ferenc
Guest
Ferenc
Guest

Magyar Idők (yesterday): “Külföldről finanszírozott diáktüntetés”
The by strawmen organized newspaper can only come up with, that today’s student demonstration is financed with foreign money… ppffff

Does anyone need yet another empty stadium
if you’re like me I’m sure a minor miracle will do
A flaming sword or maybe a gold ark floating up the Danube
when you spit in the wind it comes right back at you
–paraphrased from STRAWMAN by Lou Reed (1989)

Michael Kaplan
Guest

At age 70, I had once hoped that Hungary would close the sad chapter on anti Semitism. Sadly, the “stop Soros” plan fans the flames of anti Semitism. Many family members-“Jewish Hungarians” were deported by fellow Hungarians in spring/summer of 1944 (and after) to their death in Poland etc. We can not compare the two events in most details; however, we can not deny that the virus of anti Semitism was alive in 1944, let alone 2018.

Marty
Guest
Anti-Semitism always existed and will always exist. It existed in 1492 in Spain, during the pogroms in the Russian empire in the early 1800’s and it does exist now. Moreover politically and psychologically “the Jews” are a perfect enemy, a kind of enemy within whom you just can’t get rid of no matter how totalitarian your system is. You don’t even need Jews for anti-semitism to work. Since Hungary is an underdeveloped laggard country economically (which means salaries will never catch up to those in the West and people will forever remain frustrated and angry) sooner or later the political leadership will shift blame, focus anger or frustration onto something, somebody else – that is easily grasped by the people. The age-old figure of the scheming Jew is one those icons that people in this region immediately grasp. In addition with Israel’s domestic politics fundamentally and perhaps irrevocably changing (ie. moving to the right) anti-semitism is now basically accepted if it means the persecution of liberal Jews. In Israeli politics anti-semitism only means criticism of Israeli politics re the Palestinians or the current government. Otherwise even the Israeli government doesn’t care which means that people like Orban can use it… Read more »
bimbi
Guest

@Marty, 1:56 p.m.

I concede you your point. However, you seem not to have grasped the point of my post, which was that there was a qualitative and quantitative difference between the reactions of Bulgarians and Hungarians to the prospect of deportation of their fellow citizens during World War 2: (NOT ONE and 450,000). The Bulgarians said, “NO!”. The Hungarians said, “What the hell, why not: they have it coming”. Both societies had plenty of anti-Semitic propaganda and advocates (Prohaska, Horthy etc) but the Bulgarians said “NO!”, the Hungarians, “YES, What can I do?”

Orbán is playing a dangerous and dirty game with his hate campaigns. Where is the church, where is the humanity?

Observer
Guest

Marty
Antisemitism and hatred have actually been cultivated by the Orban gang to serve their purposes, but the dupes and bloody minded loosers take that at face value, they really hate, even if without any reason, I have seen it here time and again.
I haven’t witnessed such idiotic hatred even between Serbs and Croats in resent years.

Observer
Guest

Farkas
Yes, nice summary and I agree with all, but “antisemitism is different”. It is European, but the catholic/protestant, German/Slav, etc. antagonisms have long histories too.
Anyway, we can disagree on something, can’t we?

Farkas
Guest

Observer
True, but none are driven simultaneously by religious, racial and national prejudice as well as by momentary political interests and prejudices; none are fueled equally as much by Christianity as by Islam; and none are spread equally across all Christian and Muslim lands.

A truly awesome example of comprehensive international unanimity in hate, with only the South Asians and the East Asians missing from this vast kumbaya, though not for long, I suspect, if only because of the imperatives of alliances with Jew haters.

So antisemitism is quite different from the myriad local tribal squabbles around the world: the dynamics might be the same, but the scope is universal. Meantime however us Jews just get on with it – quietly or noisily as the case may be – as we have been doing now for millennia, in a classic case of the dogs barking, but the caravan nonetheless proceeding forward on its endless journey into the future.

Farkas
Guest

Antisemitism is cultivated by the Orban gang precisely because they know that their followers take it at face value and are emotionally highly receptive to it, which then makes them much more malleable and manipulable for party political purposes.

As to the idiotic hatreds of identity politics and various tribalisms around the world, they seem to be an inherent concomitant of group behaviour and scapegoating, and as such an inalienable element of human nature itself. Whether it is stories like Romeo and Juliet or West Side Story, the rioting of football hooligans, or vendettas in Sicily, the Balkans or the greater Middle East, the dynamics are always and invariably the same.

Where antisemitism is different – whether it be religion-driven, racially-driven or politically-driven – is not in its dynamics, but in its universal and permanent appeal, the one type of hatred on which all dupes and bloody minded loosers of this world can always and invariably be in perfect agreement.

Marty
Guest

I agree but I was actually replying to Michael Kaplan who hoped that anti-semitism will never return in Hungary. I don’t want to diminish responsibility, I only wanted to clarify that anti-semitism is probably here to stay especially as long as various ethnic, religious identities are allowed to be celebrated. There was no (or very low level, compared to current levels) anti-semitism during the Kadar-era (especially in the tightly controlled public discourses) mostly because everything which had to do with minorities (whether ethnic, religious etc.) was very strategically suppressed. Also average people felt quite secure in their everydays so they needed few scapegoats and obviously Kadar didn’t see the use of using Jews as scapegoat. To the contrary he thought dealing with such “old identity issues” (which would be obliterated anyway on the road from the existing socialism towards communism) was dangerous politically.

Farkas
Guest
The thing I find incomprehensible is why any Jew or person of partly or wholly Jewish descent would want to remain in Hungary after what happened there over the past 150 years, and in particular since the regime change. First, there was the promise of emancipation in 1867, which was then partly rescinded in 1920, then fully rescinded with the three Jew Laws between 1938 and 1941, culminating in the Hungarian Holocaust. Then there was the deceptive promise of universal brotherhood in communism which many Jews latched onto in desperation after the trauma of the Holocaust, and despite their soon-to-come profound disappointment with that ideology, to the end remained nonetheless grateful to it for suppressing at least the official manifestations of antisemitism. Today the country is marching lock-step back towards the 1930s, including its attitudes to Jews. The situation is severely exacerbated by the fact that in contrast to other East European countries that have become very largely “judenfrei” in the course of WW2, Budapest has in all probability between 80-100,000 Jews or persons of partly or wholly Jewish descent. That number is however still far too high for “echte”‘ Hungarians, especially since, politically, most of those Jews or persons… Read more »
Farkas
Guest

I don’t know why, but Hungarians of Jewish descent obstinately refuse to receive the message that they are not welcome there, and obstinately insist on sticking with the place come hell or high water.

Ágnes Heller, for instance, is an archetypical example of this; but I suppose that in her case it is also a matter of preferring to be a big fish in a small pond, and in any case dollars go a lot further in Budapest than in New York.

I myself would never go near a place where I am not welcome, and least of all insist on staying there. Basic self-esteem and healthy pride 101. It is a big world out there, and no need whatsoever to be hung up about one particular corner of it, because there are plenty of great places and opportunities for anyone prepared to give it a go. But that’s me, I suppose, and there is them. To each according to their inclinations, I suppose; different strokes for different folks, or as they say in Hungarian, izlések és pofonok különbözőek.

Observer
Guest

Michael K
It’s not only antisemitism, it’s a lot of anti- (whatever/whoever), even as the Fid supporters see their party having won, taken over and pocketed everything in Hun, they still get frothing at the mouth in fits of hate rages against the latest (whatever/whoever) enemy.
Being absolutely irrational it’s all the more scary to think what would such masses do when knocked down by a serious crisis and incited by a regime in trouble – some sort of Kristalnacht or St. Bartholomew’s nights?

bimbi
Guest
Subtle differences between countries… During WW2 both Bulgaria and Hungary were deeply infected by antisemitism and Nazism and both countries enacted very severe laws on their Jewish populations, Jewish Bulgarians and Jewish Hungarians. Yet of some 50,000 Jews living at that time in Bulgaria not one was deported to the extermination camps, while in Hungary, some 450,000 were deported (and as Petofi tells us at 2 or 3 x the rate “ordered” by the German Nazis). What was the difference? The difference was the widespread revulsion that was felt throughout Bulgaria for the deportation proposal which was widely rejected by the population at large through protests, also supported by (some) politicians and eventually Tsar Boris with the result that the Germans backed off. In Hungary, we know the sad, sad story. Smiling Csendörök loading their fellow-citizens into cattle cars at gunpoint, the abandoned houses and possessions ransacked by the neighbours. Back in Budapest the Hungarian Arrow Cross forces tried with might and main to make Budapest “Judenfrei” and only the Red Army put a stop to that. In 1930s Hungary there was a culture of deep, virulent antisemitism supported and propagated right from the top of the government and this… Read more »
Observer
Guest

bimbi
Never heard of Bulg being “deeply infected by Antisemitism and Nazism”, but the opposite. Otherwise how to explain the resistance of the population, the king and, after his suspicious* death in mid 1942, even the regency (of his underage son) did not kill, deport or even harshly intern the Jews. BG had many, large minorities, Turks, Greeks, Armenians, gypsies and tolerance was much higher.
There was no Nazism in Bg either, there were classical fascist/party, but not the king, who had a lot of influence, although less than Horthy.
* King Boris was summoned to Hitler’s bunker in Ostpreusen (?) in August and in one on one meeting he was berated by a shouting Hitler on the deportation, among other things (Bg didn’t send any troops to the Eastern front). On the flight back the king fell ill and died several days later without clear diagnose.

Farkas
Guest

Just so as to keep the numbers straight, the total of Hungarian Jewish victims in WW2:

Budapest: 102,803; Provinces within Hungary proper: 197,818; “Recovered” territories: 268,886; Total: 569,507.

The figure of 289,357 was the total dispatched to Auschwitz from North-Eastern Hungary, Sub-Carpathia and Northern Transylvania between May 19 and June 7, 1944.

The round figure of 450,000 quoted by Observer is the approximate number of Jewish deportees to Auschwitz from Hungary proper plus the “recovered” territories, during the entire period of the German “occupation.”

Source:
The Geographic Encyclopedia of the Hungarian Holocaust, 2007, editor in chief: Randolph L. Braham, Budapest: Park Publishers.

Farkas
Guest
The Bulgarians of course carefully distinguished between “echte” Bulgarian Jews who got protection, and Jews from the “recovered” “province” of Macedonia, all 15,000 of whom were duly dispatched to Auschwitz. There was a parallel story in Romania, where over 400,000 “echte” Romanian Jews survived (apart from the 12,000 victims of the Iași massacre and those of the odd pogrom here and there), but over 350,000 supposedly “communist” Jews from the “recovered” “province” of Bessarabia and from nearby Ukrainian territories under Romanian occupation, were brutally massacred by Romanian troops who carried out their grisly task with the bloodthirstiness of wild animals in a feeding frenzy. The war was lost by the time the Romanian authorities eventually got around to applying the final solution to the “echte” Romanian Jews too, and by that time the Romanian strategic imperative had of course changed from massacring their Jews to getting ready to switch sides, so as not to end up on the losing side in the war. Just as the murderers ran out of time in Romania, the Hungarian murderers and murderers’ accomplices had also run out of time in the case of a large percentage of Budapest Jews. That was not so however… Read more »
Farkas
Guest

Re the Romanians:

After the war, the Romanian communists have of course sold their Jews to Israel and the West for around 3000 dollars per head. To just about the last one of them, so out of the over 400,000 Romanian Jews who serendipitously survived the war, today only a handful of perhaps 5,000 remain, most of them elderly.

And that is still too much for Romanian antisemites.

Charming, ain’t it?

Guest

It seems an important part of the “Hungarian psyche”:
When something ugly happens it’s always someone else’s fault!
Of course you can not generalize but you find this kind of “reasoning” so often – people are not willing to accept responsibility!
They are always looking for a “Popanz” as we say in German and Fidesz has mastered this though to the outsider it looks totally idiotic!
But Fidesz doesn’t care what others think about them obviously.
So the rest of the world is laughing at Hungary or crying, depending on the mood.

Guest

OT but …
Remember how our Fidesz trolls where gushing over Romania’s politics not too long ago?
Seems that Romanians get a new prime minister – and she’s a woman!
That would be totally unthinkable in Orbanistan where around 15% of the members of parliament in Fidesz are women …

And now Tyrker will appear and tell me that’s totally wrong and actually it’s 17,3% or whatever … 🙂

Ferenc
Guest
copy from kormany.hu The public consultation of the STOP SOROS legislative package begins today 1.paragphaph The Government has made public the STOP SOROS legislative package and will be submitting it for public consultation today. The aim of the bill is to enforce the will of the overwhelming majority of the Hungarian people and to ensure tough action against those who organise and finance illegal immigration. ———2.paragraph (under the line)————— Organisations and individuals who organise *immigration are endangering Hungary’s security, and accordingly particularly strict action must be taken against them. The legislative package, which comprises three proposed pieces of legislation, would require organisations that facilitate *migration to register themselves and report on their activities with relation to organising and facilitating *migration. They would be required to pay a 25% duty on their foreign funding, and the resulting revenue would be spent by the Government on state border protection duties. People and organisations who finance the organisation of *immigration are at least as dangerous as those who organise *immigration itself, and accordingly the legislative package also includes measures aimed at them. source: 2018 January 18, http://www.kormany.hu/en/cabinet-office-of-the-prime-minister/news/the-public-consultation-of-the-stop-soros-legislative-package-begins-today * [added by me-Ferenc] where the word “illegal” is ‘forgotten’ by the representatives of the “anti-democratic”… Read more »
Member

Just to clarify one small point, I belive the 1,300 recently admitted immigrants are not Muslim but in fact Coptic Christians from Egypt

Observer
Guest

Julia
Re Copts:
– where did you get this info from?
– how come (from the interviews with a couple of) the Cops living here hadn’t heard of 1200 other Copts arriving?
– where are these 1200 people now?
– do you believe pigs can fly?

Ferenc
Guest

Official asylum figures for Hungary 2016 and 2017:
-registered asylum applications: 2016 = 29.432 / 2017 = 3.397 [-89%]
-total granted protection: 2016= 425 / 2017 = 1216 [+186%]
-granted refugee status: 2016 = 154 / 2017 = 106 [-31%]
-granted “subsidiary protection”*: 2016 = 271 / 2017 = 1110 [+310%]

*”subs.protection” means less protection than refugee status, and protection in 2016 considerably reduced
see https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-legal-amendments-Apr-June-2016.pdf
data 2016: https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-figures-1-January-2017.pdf
data 2017: https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-figures-1-January-2018.pdf
incl.details of country of origin, i.e.in 2017 was granted protection to 1103 people (all with a heart!) from Afghanistan-Iraq-Somalia-Syria

Ferenc
Guest

Flabbergasted about the latest “társadalmi célú reklám” [‘advertising for social purposes’] prepared by the HU government to inform people about their “Stop-Soros!” campaign.
Apart from lacking even one drop of truth, aka.being only lies, it’s just a rehashing (with same images and texts!) as the ones for the 2016 Referendum (which they LOST, as being INVALID because of only 40% outcome, so under 50% threshold ). The only change is that “EU/Brussels” is replaced with “Soros”.
Conclusion for now: OV&Co have run out of ideas and found themselves in a dead end street, hajra…

Ferenc
Guest

Just found an interesting document:
“Timeline of Governmentental Attacks against Hungarian NGO Sphere” dated 2017.Feb.22, 21 pages
Listing all attacks starting 2013.Aug till 2017.Feb, with details who/what/where/when, shocking to read, and note the increased intensity of the attacks
https://tasz.hu/files/tasz/imce/timeline_of_gov_attacks_against_hu_ngos_22022017_1.pdf
PS: update till now highly recommended!!

Ferenc
Guest

The timeline seems continuously updated, all versions including the latest (dated 2017.Nov.17) are available at https://www.helsinki.hu/en/timeline-of-governmental-attacks-against-ngos/